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Linebacker: The Broncos Scheme and Needs

Understanding Linebacker Play Within the Broncos Scheme

One of the big questions going into the 2010 offseason is deciding exactly what, if anything, the Broncos are going to do about their linebacker position. Given that Coach Don Martindale has been named to the defensive coordinator position, it's clear that that Broncos both like his style of coaching and appreciate what he's done with a group that was cobbled together from continuing players, castoffs from other squads  and players from Denver moving from different positions.

It says here that Martindale has been one of the top coaches on the team, and if they move him up to DC, I hope that they can find someone nearly as good to take his place. By the way, for those who asked - the style of defense and the terminology were part of the package that Josh McDaniels impressed Pat Bowlen, Joe Ellis and Jim Goodman with. It's not going to change, so there will be continuity.

But the linebacking corps still needs work, and I think that the LB squad would agree. As most MHR members seem to concur, there is a problem at inside linebacker. Andra Davis seemed to fade a bit down the road and may be experiencing the only opponent that always wins - age. DJ Williams, on the other hand, was at his fourth position in 6 seasons and still managed to lead the team in tackles.

Star-divide

Even so, close viewing of game film showed certain problems with his play. In fairness - can't we give the poor guy more than one seasons to learn yet another danged position? On the other hand, there's no doubt in my mind that we need at least a third ILB, and preferably one who can quickly start for Davis. Davis is a wonderful influence in the locker room and a talented backup, but it's my own feeling that we need to upgrade this position.


To help this make more sense, I'm going to start by establishing the role of the outside linebackers.  Getting clear on their role is essential to understanding why we require an additional top rated inside linebacker.  On the way, I'm going to talk briefly about the different aspects of the defense and what our situation might mean in terms of where we decide to prioritize this change.

This was a blurb out of a nice article from a guy who knows his football, Frank Schwab of the Colorado Springs Gazette:

ENGLEWOOD - On most running plays, Denver Broncos outside linebacker Mario Haggan is not instructed to make a tackle.

The coaches won't scold him if he does, but that isn't his job. In Denver's defensive scheme, the outside linebackers are there to sacrifice. They "set the edge," or keep running backs and quarterbacks in the pocket, funneling plays inside so others such as inside linebackers D.J. Williams and Andra Davis can make the tackle.

Going into today's game against Philadelphia, Davis and Williams have combined for 184 tackles. Haggan, who has started all 14 games, has 44 tackles. Haggan made one of the better plays last week against Oakland when he kept running back Darren McFadden from getting outside on fourth and 1. He forced McFadden to pause and cut inside but had to share the tackle with Davis.

That's typical, but the outside linebackers understand their roles.

"No disrespect to any other position, but I feel like the outside linebacker is probably the most vital position on the defense," Haggan said. "We don't put up big tackles, but if you watch film and watch what we do every day, when you watch D.J. or Andra come across and make a tackle for a loss - if the edge was set well, it's going to end up being a big play."

From what I've seen, he's right. I'll leave it to Steve Nichols to decide if this is true a Run Contain defense but certainly there is that element. Run Contain, which the Broncos briefly flirted with when Jim Bates was defensive coordinator, was overall a disaster in Denver. One of the basic issues of the system is that you need very specific types of players, including an 18-wheeler or two at DT and dump trucks at DE, which Denver's 4-3 defense lacked. Just as you can borrow some zone blitzes from Dick LeBeau's approach (the Steelers' defensive coordinator) without running a zone blitz scheme, you can also borrow some thoughts from Bates' Run Contain without using his overall system. That's exactly what I see the Broncos doing now, and for the first six games and two more later, it worked fine. It also became obvious that we are giving up too many big running plays, and some are going right past Davis and Williams. The edge wasn't always set, either. Both of those problems have to stop.

So, where do they go to from here? To decide, let's start by looking at the needs of the defensive squad of the team, one position at a time.

Where are the Broncos biggest needs on defense? At the safety position, I'd call us pretty well set, especially if they start using Barrett on the TEs to cover them. We have a guy setting behind Brian Dawkins and Renaldo Hill - Darcel McBath - who can start for a lot of teams. We have a special teams ace - David Bruton - who is learning, and seems to be learning fast from what little I've seen. Sound pretty set? Sure, another, big time safety is always welcome, but we want to do as much as possible with JAGs (Just a Guy's). I know - Dawkins won't be around forever. But I do expect him back next year, and McBath, Barrett and Bruton will be considerably more ready by the time he retires. I know -- I'd love a top safety, but Eric Berry will be gone and I'm not really sold on Taylor Mays. Not for that 1st round price, certainly. And, I'm still not sure that Darcel McBath won't be a top safety - the early findings are very good, in addition to his skills at special teams.

Cornerback. We need to get at least one, perhaps (preferably, in fact) two. This could be from the draft, but I'd like one via free agency (FA). There is the age factor, but no one in the league looks forward to going up against Champ Bailey and Andre' Goodman, other than his occasional tackling, is flat out great. Alphonso Smith will be an argument until he produces, but Tony Carter showed in his short time that he doesn't play short at all. The man looks like a winner. That doesn't mean that bringing in competition is a bad thing, though. We have two good players who are on the north side of 30.

The D-Line - I've talked about this. We have a lot of beef - Carlton Powell, J'Vonne Parker (all 336 lbs of him), Chris Baker, who doesn't necessarily pass on dessert either at 326 and they're all sitting and awaiting a chance. We also have Everette Pedescleaux on PSIR. We should give them that chance, or move them on, unless they show a lot of promise. Last year, Ryan McBean went from a DE on the PS to starter, and a darned good one so it can happen. But it's time to figure out what to do with all that size that isn't playing on Sunday.

Vonnie Holliday did some good things, but also struggled at other times. Sadly, I think that we can do better than a guy who I absolutely admire as a person, in Kenny Peterson. I don't think that Le Kevin Smith showed what we had hoped either. We need to upgrade, and I think that we need to badly - mostly on the ends. McBean is a keeper. I feel the same way about Fields (NT, without question) and although it may not be popular, I feel that way about Thomas, too, whether we keep him at NT or move him back to DE. The others? We need some help.

But then we come back to the linebackers' role, and, I believe, to the heart of the defensive matter.

Against Oakland, the outside linebackers had to share some blame for the losses. The Raiders rushed for 240+ yards, the 2nd most this season against the Broncos, mainly because they had seven big running plays. Five of those came on cutback runs, which the outside linebackers are asked to contain and the ILBs to stop. Against Kansas City, the Broncos were run over for over 300 yards. ; Jamal Charles. For the most part, the outside linebackers have played well. The defense improved in many ways over the previous year. However, they are a long way from where the Broncos need them to be, and the running game was probably our biggest weakness on defense.

Haggan had to learn the new position. Like anyone, he made his mistakes and will be better next season. He also noted that it takes more than brute force to set the edge. The linebacker must recognize plays while also staying aware of timing, figuring out when it's OK to shed the blocker. If you do that too early, it opens a hole to the outside.

"They trust me on the edge," he said. "They don't worry about when things come my way.""

He's right, too. It's more on the inside that I'm concerned. However - if the perfect OLB comes along, would I mind some competition at that position? Surely you jest....

What we have now, though, is a two edged sword. Doom, on one edge, is turning into a very good linebacker. One of his weaknesses as a defensive end was that he had trouble stopping the run. Moving him further to the outside has reduced this problem considerably. It improves his vision of the play and it gives him more time to get the correct angle on his tackles, too. Over the course of the season, I noticed that he was also improving in his pass coverage. Because of these improvements, I consider him to be a high quality starting outside linebacker. Given his league leading total of sacks, Elvis has made himself a very valuable quantity who the Broncos should and almost certainly will keep. And, on the other side, Mario Haggan has shown us just what a valuable player he has been over the course of the last season. That gives us two very good starting linebackers in the outside positions.

As an aside:  This also brings up two examples of one important point. The first example relates to Mario Haggan. Mario Haggan was chosen by the Buffalo Bills as an outside linebacker. However, while wanted him to mostly play the Sam position, they also moved him to middle linebacker. While they valued him on special teams, they played in a 4-3 defensive front, and never truly had a place for him. Neither did Denver, until the Josh McDaniels group took over. Since Mario was drafted as a classic tweener, who was not properly prepared to play either defensive end or outside linebacker, you cannot blame the city of Buffalo's team for not knowing how to use him. That problem was solved when the Broncos moved to a 30 front defense. This is a good reminder - establish carefully at what kind of player you want at a position - as in, write a danged manual - before you waste a draft pick.

The second relates to Elvis Dumervil, and the principle is the same. Elvis Dumervil was a classic outside linebacker for a 3-4 (or 5-2) front formation. He is slightly short, but not as short as has been reported. He is a hair under 6 feet tall. He weighs 248 pounds. In other words, he is about the size of your normal middle linebacker. Or, about the size of your average Sam linebacker. He was drafted for a 4-3 defense and still managed to do well, but not as well as he could have. My point is that in both cases listed above, it was an issue with how they were used, not whether they were talented. It happens all over the NFL every day. What the Broncos really need on their linebacking corp is a true 3-4 ILB - one with size, speed, a love of contact and the tackling nastiness of a Dick Butkus (without that whole 'biting the guy's leg in the pile' sort of business).

While this also leaves us with two good starting linebackers, could we definitely use more depth? On the one side, rookie Robert Ayers showed early signs of tremendous promise. Like you, I read a lot of comments from members complaining that they didn't see him enough. I believe that the actual problem was not that he was not seen enough, but that the job of an outside linebacker in this particular system is not to ring up statistics or to make highlight reels. It is to set the edge, contain the run, drop into coverage when needed and make sure that no big plays get past you. While there were the inevitable rookie mistakes, I saw Ayers doing just exactly that many times. I also saw him dropping into coverage and holding his zone several times. Unless the pass is thrown in that direction, Ayers will not make any highlight reels when he does that. But, who cares? He is doing exactly what he is supposed to be doing.

I also like Darrell Reid in the outside linebacker position. Yes, I know that he was not always at his best during the 2009 season. On the other hand, wasn't that to be expected? It was his first year playing at that position. Even so, he made quite a number of good plays. The question will be whether or not he improves next season. If he does that's all well and good. If not, we are going to need a better player to replace him. and if there is someone that we can bring in to challenge him, that's fine too.

Of these four, I see Darrell Reid as the weakest. That does not mean that I think that we should drop or replace him right away. It means that he's the one I will be keeping an eye on more than any other. It means that if a player comes into training camp and has the skill to beat him out Josh McDaniels will have to make a decision as to whether or not to keep Reid on his special teams basis. Because someone else will be playing linebacker and that's as it should be.

But all of this brings us back to the start of our discussion of the inside linebacker positions. Hopefully, this also explains to those who had trouble understanding why we would be interested in a player like Rolando McClain. If you look back at the Oakland game, for example, Denver gave up over 240 yards on the ground. There were quite a few culprits, but Andra Davis and DJ Williams were involved in several of the seven plays that went for long yardage. That is what we need to improve. The entire system is set up to funnel running backs directly from the edges into the middle where the tackles are to be made. That means that the play of the inside linebacker positions are going to be one of the big keys to getting our team to the next level. Other two players, DJ is clearly a much better player in my mind. That means that to get to the next level we need to find a better player than Davis.

There you have it. When we talk about free agency and the NFL draft, and we look at the linebacking positions on the Denver Broncos, to me there's only one spot that stands out as requiring immediate attention, and that's Davis. Other people will argue that Darrell Reid also needs to be replaced, yet I find this argument premature. After all, he only has one year at the position and did a lot of good things. It was asking a great deal for him to be moved into that position and to play as well as he did. However, I would agree that too often he did not set the edge well enough on the run. As I have said, either that will improve or he'll have to be replaced. But after only one year, I believe that he's earned a chance at the position. Besides, he is still one heck of a special teams player. I won't bet against him. If we found a gem at OLB, it wouldn't break my heart either, but Haggan has played very well in his first year at the 5-2 OLB and Reid was pretty good too. Competition for either slot is always a good thing, though.

That only leaves the inside linebacking position. Whether you decide to use a high draft pick and go after a player like Rolando McClain, or whether you decide to use the higher picks for other purposes and to go after some of the mid round talent at the same position (there are some interesting folks out there, as many of the 'mocks' have noted) is a separate question. It will be answered by the actions of the team and it will undoubtedly be debated on this and many other sites.

I'd also say that Andra Davis should be retained if it is at all possible. He is a leader in the locker room. He helps the younger players to become the kind of NFL players that we need: professional, hardworking, always in the weight room or film room, and he helps them with technique as well. Andra Davis is like an additional coach, whether out on the field or in the locker room. This is in no way a knock on that player. It is just a fact of life: players age. In many ways, I wish we had him years ago. But since this is the way things have gone down, it's time to find an upgrade at that position.

I hope we can find one who has half as good an influence on the team as the man he will replace.

Comment 87 comments  |  31 recs  | 

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Great Post!

One thing I liked about Andra Davis is the timing of his blitzes. From what I saw, he got into the back field a lot. However, he did look gassed as the season wore on. He would be a great back-up and mentor.

DJ, though I love him, frustrates me to death with being out of position so much. That LOOOOOONG run by McNabb still haunts me. That was the field position/game changing play right there!

How about this thought…Moving Haggan to ILB (Taking Davis’ place) and starting Ayers at LOLB? I know that Haggan had a hard time as a 4-3 MLB, but how about a 3-4/5-2 ILB? What do you think?

BTW, as always, I rec’ your post.

"I can do all things through HIM who gives me strength"
"And you KNOW(shon) this...man!!!"

by BroncoCountryHawaii on Jan 28, 2010 11:29 AM MST reply actions  

Good question
How about this thought…Moving Haggan to ILB (Taking Davis’ place) and starting Ayers at LOLB? I know that Haggan had a hard time as a 4-3 MLB, but how about a 3-4/5-2 ILB? What do you think?

Two things come up for me. First, this may be where they are headed, but I find it unlikely because Ayers can set the edge so well. Davis, on the other hand, is long past the skillset for OLB, so now you’ve a hole in the roster – hello, FA and draft. Good thought, though. Haggan has played some MLB, but has generally been a SAM or OLB. He might move over well, but he’s producing well where he is and I’m loathe to move a player who is already producing well. Still – you could be right. It’s on option, at the least.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 28, 2010 10:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Excellent

That was a great insightful post. I could never analyze a backfield like that. Thanks E.S.

by WYO(MF)BRONCOBOY on Jan 28, 2010 11:37 AM MST reply actions  

Awesome post.....

I’m walking away from the computer a more educated Broncos Fan and for that I thank you, I wanted the best ILB in the draft at #10/11…….you know who he is….and I want him even more now. enough of this Tebow in first round crap. If that ILB falls to us….we hope we take him. I’m instantly buying his jeasrsy if so.

by bronco112 on Jan 28, 2010 11:49 AM MST reply actions  

McClain

This greatly insightful post just makes me want to pray that McClain will get to us at the 10/11 pick. I have seen him play many times and he is always outstanding. A smart vocal leader on the defense.

by JAYson G on Jan 28, 2010 8:09 PM MST reply actions  

Great stuff Smith

I hope you do this for more positions

rec’d

CentSports free 10 cents to bet with Better than Fantasy Football, pick'em!!

by RiG on Jan 28, 2010 8:28 PM MST reply actions  

How is Woodyard doing?

he plays nickel linebacker right?

CentSports free 10 cents to bet with Better than Fantasy Football, pick'em!!

by RiG on Jan 28, 2010 8:30 PM MST reply actions  

He struggled a bit more this year

He’s mostly in on nickel, and often drops in coverage. It’s not his best work (so much for making him a safety, as some suggested) and he’s struggled. He seems just a touch late getting into the catch, a touch light stripping the ball.

On the other hand, he’s only a sophomore and it’s his first year in the system. I’d like to see if Barrett can handle those same duties, but I’m sure there’s a reason that it hasn’t been done.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 28, 2010 10:00 PM MST up reply actions  

over on footballoutsiders

they showed that Woodyard had an uncommonly high stop rate – that a high percentage of his tackles kept the ball carrier from getting a first down. On the other hand, his number of tackles might have been low enough that it may have been a blip. Still, I didn’t see any other Broncos on the list, and it surprised me.

by tunesmith on Jan 28, 2010 10:09 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm really not surprised

Woodyard’s ability to tackle and make stops is, to me, without question. I have concerns with his ability in coverage, but WW is one of the good guys in my book. I just hope that has coverage skills can improve (or that Barrett can be used on certain downs – he has done quite a job of shutting down a few TEs. TedB thought that Barrett was brought in most often when it was longer yardage – in other words, when coverage is more important. Given that, I think that the Broncos are pretty blessed to have two players whose skillset overlap enough to cover all three downs, regardless of distance.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 3:12 PM MST up reply actions  

Great post!

IMHO we’re still feeling the loss of Al Wilson. I’ve liked the last few linebackers that have come out of USC; Rivers, Malauga, Mathews, and Cushing. I hope that McClain is there. His leadership, work ethic, and athletic ability could be a corner stone for our defense for years to come.

"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King Jr.

by sbsbroncofan on Jan 28, 2010 8:36 PM MST reply actions  

Wilson was, for a long time, irreplaceable, and it's cost us a lot

That’s a good argument for taking McClain if he’s available. I’m increasingly a Micah Johnson fan as well. Ironically, in 2007 he sometimes shared MLB with Braxton Kelley, who was on the UCFA group for Denver and with whom we have a reserve/futures contract. However, Johnson is bigger, stronger and their speed is comparable.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 28, 2010 10:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Dude that was kick ass

LOVED the post!!!!!

Would love to have McClain on the team but if we cant theres always Brandon Spikes.

by Cali_BroncosFan on Jan 28, 2010 9:39 PM MST reply actions  

DJ not a concern?

Williams free ride is over. Not impressed with him at all. Gave him a break when he kept changing positions, coaches all the time. But I wouldn’t mind seeing Davis and McClain taking care of the middle next year.

Still would rather draft QB in rd 1 but getting McClain (die hard) would be a huge break for Denver.

by CastorTroy on Jan 28, 2010 10:12 PM MST via mobile reply actions  

I have been craving a new ILB since Al Wilson had to retire.

We definitely need a tackling machine in the middle. Good thoughts Em.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 28, 2010 10:15 PM MST reply actions  

I'm not sure what free ride DJ has gotten

He’s gone through constant position changes and still is a Pro Bowl alternate for this year, leading the Broncos in tackles. I’d give him another year at the same position. However – I still seriously miss Al W.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 28, 2010 10:16 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Al had 'tude too
However – I still seriously miss Al W.

Swagger and emotion – that is the thing that separates champions from really good teams. There is a fine line between swagger and arrogance. A team with good players and good coaching but has a chip on their shoulder, most of the time, will beat a team with similar talent and coaching.

That’s not a stat, but it does not lie.

Football is a game of emotion and momentum. The team that comes ready to play with all their hearts often has the advantage over the team with greater supposed talent or better record.

IMHO, B-Dawk has taken over Al’s role as the emotional leader of our D. Probably one of the best moves McD has done in his short tenure – now let’s go get us another 12th rounder like Meck :-)

Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA

by Rzeppa on Jan 28, 2010 10:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Great post Doc!!

In the draft, I am intrigued with Rolando McClain, Darryl Sharpton, and Micah Johnson..I hope we get one of these guys!

Eddie Royal will have a breakout season in 2010. Count on it.

by stedtfeld on Jan 28, 2010 10:28 PM MST reply actions  

How do you measure 'Tude?

The best linebacker ever for our beloved Broncos was asked about his success.

He played just about every defensive line position in down or stand-up stance at snap, and opponents never knew where he’d line up.

He was considered undersized, and was a 12th round draft pick.

When asked abut his success, he explained that his brother was bigger, stronger, faster than him. But would never be a good football player. He explained that to be good football player you needed an attitude. His brother didn’t have that mean, nasty attitude when the ball was snapped.

Anyone care to guess who I’m referring to?

Great post BTW, and highly rec’d – we need another LB like the fellow I am alluding to.

‘Tude. It’s all about ‘tude, and Doom brings it. Let’s get another one like that 12th round guy.

Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA

by Rzeppa on Jan 28, 2010 10:30 PM MST reply actions  

77?

-Richee
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!

by BroncoSense72 on Jan 28, 2010 10:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Old Guys Rule!

-Richee
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!

by BroncoSense72 on Jan 28, 2010 10:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Sure do ;-)

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 2:05 PM MST up reply actions  

I know who

The best LB to ever play for the Broncos was named Gradishar. And I’m not taking anything away from Mecklenburg.

KM was certainly a great LB but he wasn’t the best.

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Jan 28, 2010 11:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Exactly.

Step aside, my friend, I been doin' it for years.
Said sit on down, open ya eyes, say open up ya ears....

by pubkeeper on Jan 29, 2010 2:33 PM MST up reply actions  

No way

I just looked it up – Meck’s a year younger than I, born Sept 1, 1960…

:-)

Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA

by Rzeppa on Jan 28, 2010 10:49 PM MST reply actions  

Talkin about us...That would remember Meck and 12th rounds...lol

-Richee
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!

by BroncoSense72 on Jan 28, 2010 10:52 PM MST up reply actions  

79 Sacks

Not too shabby – but the way he played with such ‘tude and humility was inspiring to all us fans, and his team-mates too. That’s what we need in our LB corps. Al played that way and with all respect to Andra, we need more ’tude in there.

Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA

by Rzeppa on Jan 28, 2010 11:00 PM MST up reply actions  

I can't provide the attitude

But I’ll cheerfully supply a measure of olditude. It has pretty much the same effect, but you nap more……….

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 4:29 AM MST up reply actions  

I love my morning Nap

right after 2nd breakfast. =)

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 29, 2010 8:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Rec'd on this one, Doc. That is per usual.

Mech continues to support the present day guys. I see him in the stands watching a game sometimes.

Just checked the CBS Sports Draft Prospects Ratings: McClain is #10. Isn’t that where we pick? (I realize that this rating is just that – a rating) Buffalo at #9 is switching to a 3-4. Might be interesting as to how they build their D. BTW: the OL guy getting huge reviews has moved up to #14 on their board. Be interesting where Iupati ends up.

McClain and Spikes both run about 256 lbs. The next 2 ILBs Washington & Lee run about 225 and 235 respectively. Micah Johnson runs 258 – rated as a 4-5 round pick.

I would like to see us find an ILB who could rotate with Davis. Andra always gives 100% on each play. Great way to break in a new guy.

Thanks for your time and energy, Emmett. Excellent info. I am copying to my email files for further review.

by Blackknigh on Jan 28, 2010 11:14 PM MST reply actions  

Wink

It would be nice to see us keep a DC more than 1 year. Hopefully Wink will be the one, but from a look at his photo today it seems more likely that he is a short timer or the next Biggest Loser.

by LAbroncfan on Jan 29, 2010 12:18 AM MST reply actions  

good lord thank god this wasn't a repeat of warmick's thread yesterday

get over your prejudices. please don’t reply to this, I’m not feeding you—if you want to get your fat-bashing/arguing about fat-bashing fix just go read the martindale announcement post’s comments

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Jan 29, 2010 2:29 PM MST up reply actions  

Terrific post, certainly rec'd!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Jan 29, 2010 1:47 AM MST reply actions  

thoughts

Whether we upgrade ILB this year is probably going to depend on whether we pick McClain (if available) versus someone else, and I admit that I’m favoring Dez Bryant now — but either would be good choices based on the current scouting on them.

It’s not that McX disagree with Emmett’s logic. Trading Marshall, which many of us assume will happen, makes taking a WR a higher priority. And if given the choice between McClain and Bryant in a Marshall-less scenario, the choice tips to Bryant.

ILB is a tough position is a tough position to see going earlier in the draft once McClain is gone. And part of McClain’s appeal rests in the fact that he (reportedly) has attributes that place him more as an OLB value-wise. The number of 3-4 ILB prospects is quite small, judging by my reading. You can see it HERE.

The mathematician in me says that the numbers are unfavorable, so I think we should be looking for other options if we want to bolster the ILB position. I’ve been pondering this problem lately and I’m drawn to some of the mid-round OLB propects, such as Edds and Misi, who may be good fits on the inside. I’d like to see an addition in the middle but this draft appears to be shallow in that area.

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Jan 29, 2010 2:50 AM MST reply actions  

Marshall

If Marshall is traded, I dont see any way the Broncs select a WR – especially Bryant. Though I dont have an stats to quantify this opinion, I think the offense was worse when Marshall had better stats. The spread offense isnt really spread if you keep going to the same guy. That way, if Marshall goes, then he is replaced by a bunch of guys who do their jobs effectively (Stokelys, Royals [hopefully]) and not any receiver who will cost a mint and in reality be a 50/50 chance of success in the nfl. Marshall was of course drafted in the 4th round.

Apart from the trenchmen, the linebackers are this team’s biggest priority this year and they dont necessary have to come through the first 2 rounds of the draft.

Great post – the LBs really are the face of a successful 3-4 defence

by nzlbroncos on Jan 29, 2010 6:08 AM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for that input Colinski

I wondered about the possible fits for us at ILB and I value your opinion on the subject. I feel I have a grasp on the needs but am no judge of the College players mainly because I don’t get to watch much college ball. I am very interested in speculating a realistic short board so we have more accurate expectations. Even though I am a Sunny Sider, I would rather not be let down. I have come to the same conclusion of Bryant > McClain at the money position (10~11).

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 29, 2010 9:04 PM MST up reply actions  

ILBs

We do have some flexibility regarding WR because of the large number of WRs. I’m not sure that availability at WR is a contingent reason to take ILB early. I understand your reasoning but the situation is probably not analogous to the “logical pairs” they use on DraftTek. With our current allotment of picks, we miss out on something anyways. Would you say that DE and OG/OC are important, too? My point is that you probably take the BPA who’s also at a need area and realize that you can’t get everything you want. Six picks isn’t enough to do everything.

In my comment above I said “upgrade” because there’s only a few candidates that could actually make us better at ILB. We may add later. It looks like McClain is a likely candidate for our 1st pick but all bets are off after that. It will depend on what McX think about our situation at ILB, and they may opt to see who falls in our lap. A lot of ILB talent has been falling out of the draft lately, too, so maybe we should see if an Ellerbe falls into the CBAs.

I realize I said there aren’t many ILBs for the 3-4 but I have to backtrack now and say there never are. Here’s a listing from last year with ILB34s identified (they’re lumped together for most listings):

http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/nfp-specialty-rankings-3-4-defense.html

I’m not sure if we can consider this year as any different than any other year. The point being that we shouldn’t consider the situation as ‘scarcity,’ which might necessitate moving to select one. ILB is in low demand, which means that we don’t want to move without a strong reason, such as really liking a prospect. He should be the BPA or somewhat close.

Sorry I had to backtrack on my comment but the CBS list of ILBs only contains about 4 ILBs with the size to be obvious fits for ILB34. There are some in-obvious candidates who play ILB in the 4-3, and there are OLBs (a much bigger group) and DEs who are also possibles.

Here’s somebody’s listing of ILB34 prospects.

Besides McClain and Spikes, the most frequently listed one is Micah Johnson. The CBS listing of ILBs (both 4-3 & 3-4) is the most accurate, IMO. It’s not apparent how much weight teams put on experience in the 3-4. It’s something they consider, and Curry related how he was asked about his experience at Jack, etc., last year, so it is a consideration, but there doesn’t seem to be a big dividing line between MLB and ILB34.

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Jan 30, 2010 11:47 PM MST up reply actions  

Still well done

I noticed on the NFL.com list that you go from #2 (Michal Johnson) to #11 (11. Brashton Satele College: Hawaii
Height/Weight: 6-0½, 260) without a single player over 250. One thing that I do think (and it’s just my own belief, based on what I’ve seen) is that if the option is there, McD will go with a larger player.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 30, 2010 11:56 PM MST up reply actions  

size

That’s what prompted my comment about how few ILB34s were out there. I have difficulty believing that, say… Daryl Washington, 6-2, 226 lbs., is big enough to meet our criteria. Some of the ILBs are bigger now according to more recent measurements but they’re still not overly big.

McClain & Spikes are the most likely picks and the ILB well pretty much runs dry after that.

BTW — the anticipated flood of underclassmen entering to avoid a possible rookie salary cap never materialized. The touted strength of this class is not apparent.

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Jan 31, 2010 12:06 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks Colinski

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 31, 2010 9:35 AM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for your excellent input Colinski

Your contributions to this site are much appreciated!

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein

by c_style on Feb 1, 2010 4:16 PM MST up reply actions  

McClain vs Bryant
The number of 3-4 ILB prospects is quite small, judging by my reading.

Assuming both McClain & Bryant are available when we pick wouldn’t it make more sense to take McClain if the above is true? If there are more quality WR prospects than there are quality 3-4 ILB prospects wouldn’t we be better off taking the best ILB in the draft and addressing WR later?

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein

by c_style on Jan 30, 2010 11:37 AM MST up reply actions  

good point

Deciding not just where the draft s thick or thin is important. So is figuring out if a given player fits our system – something that we don’t have access to, sadly

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 30, 2010 10:17 PM MST up reply actions  

spacing

I answered your comments under the response to KaptainKirk.

Mostly it’s about whether we think McClain and Bryant are elite, besides being at need areas. Both are elite so it’s more a question of who’s there. I don’t know if they’ll pass up Bryant if Marshall is gone. Everyone worth reading has our decision as between McClain and Bryant, so there’s a surprising amount of consensus on our best direction, which isn’t typical for this early.

I’m more comfortable with the prospect of waiting and letting the draft come to us. Unless we acquire more picks we’re going to miss on some areas. UFAs may be the way to go if we can’t find a draftee, and there are vet LBs out there, last I checked. I’m more worried about finding some of the other positions, such as OG/OC, since it’s range is critical and there aren’t many in that range.

One more point — it’s not simply a matter of getting any WR in the draft. Part of the justification for a Bryant pick is that he’s the caliber of talent to replace Marshall. Oddly, the justification for taking Bryant may even be stronger than that for taking McClain. High quality WR talent may be harder to find than ILBs. Either pick is good for us, so the debate is animated by how much people like the choices rather than because they dislike the choices available.

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Jan 31, 2010 12:17 AM MST up reply actions  

Excellent responses c_style, Emmett and Colinski
Oddly, the justification for taking Bryant may even be stronger than that for taking McClain. High quality WR talent may be harder to find than ILBs. Either pick is good for us, so the debate is animated by how much people like the choices rather than because they dislike the choices available.

this is pretty much the reason I see Bryant as the slightly better choice. As you both say, there are slim pickings for ILB’s, even though we need one for depth at the very least. I agree that it would be a good option (if presented) to trade down, enabling us to address more positions. There are a few FA upgrade options for the DE and LB positions and perhaps Keydrick Vincent (Carolina) could fit as a Guard candidate. The FA market is extremely thin for Centers this year.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 31, 2010 9:58 AM MST up reply actions  

I agree

Excellent discussion here :-)

I wouldn’t mind Bryant or McClain although I have a feeling McClain would be a better pick for us.

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein

by c_style on Feb 1, 2010 4:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks, Benny.

If I can, believe me, I will. I’m keyboard deep in a history of the NFL draft, broken down by decade all the way back to the 1920’s, so forgive me if it’s a bit slow coming. I have part of an article on how we (and anyone, in certain ways) use the CB position, and that may come sooner. Thanks for the comment – nice compliment, much appreciated.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 12:58 PM MST up reply actions  

My problem with the desire to get Mclain

Is that a lot of people are trying to use him to replace Wilson who was a 4-3 MLB when he would be replacing Davis who is a 3-4 ILB.

I see two problems with that the first is that we want a guy on his own merits and not because we miss a guy we loved. I’m skeptical about McClain’s merits because he played behind a great d-line and we don’t have that. I think a lot of people would end up disappointed in him, at least the first year.

Next I don’t want to drop the number 10 pick on a two down player. I just don’t see the value there. I don’t see him being as good at covering TE’s and slot WR and the like as one of the safeties.

I also think that we are a lot thinner at DE than people seem to believe. Parker was a NT candidate iirc, he’s also no spring chicken either. Powell a fan favorite was only added to the PS after an injury and he hasn’t gotten a future’s contract which you would expect if they were serious about bringing him back. Pedescleaux could make it but that seems like a long shot. Smith is a disappointment. Holiday is older. Peterson should be a back up. I think if there had been any better options last year these guys would have been cut lose.

This year both in FA and the draft there seem like better options so I would expect that they bring in a bunch of DE candidates.

by Fan in Exile on Jan 29, 2010 7:05 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

The problem with having a hunch is that you then only allow yourself to see evidence that supports that hunch

I respectfully have to disagree with nearly all of this. Why do you think of McClain as a two-down player. My take is that he drops into coverage very well. But regardless of my take, I haven’t heard anybody ever say as much negative about McClain as you just did. Do you just not like him, or what?

I saw on ESPN’s page like yesterday where he was named all SEC player of the DECADE, along side Patrick Willis. He won the Butkus award, too. I mean every player comming out of college has their own strengths and weaknesses, but his downside is nearly as non-existant as it gets. I haven’t seen any big boards that list him as less than a top 15 talent, in fact, most say he’s the second comming of Patrick Willis or Rey Lewis and that he’s a top ten talent – very rare for an ILB.

You opinion that we would be dissappointed in him at least in the first year. I’ve never heard anybody else ever say that they think he’s going to have problems comming right in. He already plays a 3-4. I’ve heard him called the on-field general for Alabama’s defense like 100 times. He’s already got the instincts, the smarts, and the work ethic, size and strength, to come in and make immediate impact. I realize I’m just repeating MSM and that’s usually a bad thing to do. But that take is about as universal as it gets. Well, except for what’s written above this.

As for your take on our defensive line, I’ll not say we can’t use upgrades but it’s deeper than ILB. And their primary job isn’t necessarily to tackle the ball carrier anyway.

As for Al Wilson, I think you’re talking that too litterally. We miss Al Wilson. Nobody will replace him anymore than we’ll get a replacement for John Elway. But we would love to have an on field general in the middle of the field inflicting pain and making stops for years to come. Who cares if the guy comes with a slightly different title.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Jan 29, 2010 9:22 AM MST up reply actions  

For the record...

…McClain Mania doesn’t extend through all credible sources. The War Room currently lists him as only the 47th best prospect, and, interestingly, only the 3rd best ILB prospect. Though Walter Football has upgraded him some, they still don’t describe a budding superstar— but rather a solid prospect with range and coverage issues with limited upside.

I’m keeping an open mind on the kid, but I think a long evaluation process is going to take place, and there is certainly the chance that he’ll suffer a Lauranitis/Mauluga like slide before all is said and done. You can’t completely discount that defensive line he played behind or the advantages of playing on that incredible defense.

My primary concern with him are two consistent dings that are also consistent dings on Andra Davis: He’s probably not a guy that can cover TE’s or RB’s (though his zone coverage reviews are solid), and while his projected 40 times vary, there seems to be consistent questions about his ability to factor sideline-to-sideline and his tackling ability in space. Thus, FiE’s suggestion that he might simply a two down backer is not a complete reach. While a young Andra Davis is an appealing player to me (I’m a big Davis fan), I still think Denver has bigger fish to fry with such a great pick. Some DE’s will fly up the board, I’d be sick if they passed on Haden for McClain, and I maintain that fixing the offense first (Bryant, Oline) goes a long way towards protecting the defense. Thats all just layman opinion, of course, but I think there is some credible opposition to McClain.

So this is war...misfortune at every bend in the road. Misery and murdered mules and sudden death in a ditch.-- Rick Atkinson

by PredominantlyOrange on Jan 29, 2010 10:00 AM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for the comments

I’ll check out the War Room, but I’d like to just underline that we could go down a list of like 20 other big name draft boards that have him WAY higher.

Side note, while Mauluga was getting his recent DUI, McClain was probably working out or studying film =)

Point taken on the coverage issue, comming from you, I’ll give it some more homework.

As of now, the Browns moreso than the Bills are the only teams ahead of us that I could see taking him. I think he’ll be there and that Haden will be long gone.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Jan 29, 2010 10:58 AM MST up reply actions  

Look at it this way.

If Mclain is available, and Haden is gone, then draft Mclain…
If Haden is available and Mclain is gone, then draft Haden…
If both are gone, I’m sure theres a good prospect (or trade down if possible)…
If both are available, well I’m just glad I don’t have to make those decisions.

Quit drinking the Kool-Aid and start drinking the good stuff, and everything is always alright.

by Chuck "DeadDrunk" Breedlove on Jan 29, 2010 11:20 AM MST up reply actions  

Chuck, that's about as succinct a summary as I've seen

Dang, here I go taking 2000 words to say what you covered in a short comment. Takes the wind right out of my sails…lol

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 1:01 PM MST up reply actions  

If both are gone, Micah Johnson.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
Why has nobody made a live-action game of Chutes and Ladders? I'd be first in line.

by Troy Hufford on Jan 29, 2010 1:24 PM MST up reply actions  

You bet!

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 2:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Yea, I meant @ pick 10/11 tho...

Quit drinking the Kool-Aid and start drinking the good stuff, and everything is always alright.

by Chuck "DeadDrunk" Breedlove on Jan 29, 2010 2:35 PM MST up reply actions  

oh. Well, then we should trade down to Iupati range, unless 10/11 is his range by then.

I see his stock continuing to go up, so we might still be in the perfect spot there to nab him.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
Why has nobody made a live-action game of Chutes and Ladders? I'd be first in line.

by Troy Hufford on Jan 29, 2010 3:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Problem with Iupati...

It’s be a great pick if your a team who want to try and transition him to a tackle. But for a Guard @ 10/11… I think thats a litle high. Not because I don’t think he’ll be excellent, but because of the salary for a 10/11 pick.

Quit drinking the Kool-Aid and start drinking the good stuff, and everything is always alright.

by Chuck "DeadDrunk" Breedlove on Jan 29, 2010 4:47 PM MST up reply actions  

There's no doubt...

…that the majority of his reviews are fantastic. But historically, few ILB’s survive the scrutiny of the evaluation microscope and emerge as Top 15 picks. They tend to be hot at this time of year, lose some shine through the process, and then suffer big slides on draft day. Some obviously don’t (Willis and Morgan come to mind— I’d throw Mayo into the mix, but he was a kid that was getting no love this time in the process his year). I just want to wait for the draftnik buzz to be backed up by NFL sources before I jump on the bandwagon completely. Fair or not, McClain is going to have a lot of money riding on his 40 time, as anything below a 4.8 will solidify a Top 15 position and anything above will probably throw him into the 2-down bag. Speed might be overrated, but it does seem to have real impact on how ILB types are ultimately viewed. I’ve seen McClain’s 40 time range from 4.88 to 4.6. It’ll be interesting to see where it really falls.

McClain certainly wouldn’t spur any critical posts from me on draft day at this point— I’d be all right with it— but I tend to think there are some at least equally appealing options that don’t involve him.

So this is war...misfortune at every bend in the road. Misery and murdered mules and sudden death in a ditch.-- Rick Atkinson

by PredominantlyOrange on Jan 29, 2010 11:21 AM MST up reply actions  

Completely agree on the speed issue and the microscope of his 40 time

I’ve seen it listed from 4.57 (which is insane) to about 4.8 also. Is the combine here YET??

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Jan 29, 2010 12:06 PM MST up reply actions  

This may not have been clear.

Part of the knock on McClain at least in my mind isn’t him personally it’s the spot that people are plugging him into. Davis is the guy who gets pulled when we have to cover a TE or the like. I don’t see McClain as a good enough cover guy that we would change that hence he would be a two down guy in that spot.

I also think that part of the problem with our LB’s is that the D-line doesn’t do enough to allow them to make plays. So we would be disappointed not because of him in the first year, but because the D-line in front of him needs help. Even Ray Lewis really dropped off until they got the D-line in good shape.

I’ve seen him play and he seemed good a little slow but always around the ball and making plays. I would like to have him on the team but I don’t think that’s the pick we use to upgrade that spot at this time.

by Fan in Exile on Jan 29, 2010 1:14 PM MST up reply actions  

That sums it up for me, too.

So this is war...misfortune at every bend in the road. Misery and murdered mules and sudden death in a ditch.-- Rick Atkinson

by PredominantlyOrange on Jan 29, 2010 3:21 PM MST up reply actions  

I may have misunderstood, hope I didn't sound like I was too defensive

Point taken on the D Line potentially making him look less than stellar. I did misunderstand that part and thought you meant he would take time to come into his own. But I got ya now.

For me, the other part, is that with all these mocks and pretending free agency signings, I’ve always said Pickett from GB would be my absolute priority-one in outside signings. I’ve advocated placing him at nose due to size and shifting Fields over. I see that as two upgrades at the line. So in my mind, if it makes any sense at all, in my mind, the d line already had two upgrades and the next step is to grab the highly touted run-stuffer if he’s there at 10/11.

Anyway, thanks for putting me on the right page. As I told PO in a post above, I’ve always thought McClain was pretty good dropping back in coverage, but that I’ll certainly do some more homework after hearing this!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Jan 29, 2010 4:46 PM MST up reply actions  

No problem

I think my problem is that I’ve wanted them to build up the D-line for so long I always look at problems while beating that drum so it can be hard to hear anything else. :)

by Fan in Exile on Jan 30, 2010 7:02 AM MST up reply actions  

Speed

Right now, there is a preponderance of programs that prepare the more desirable players for the draft. Lots of different ‘camps’ are available and they are extremely up on the latest techniques in training the athletes for the upcoming week-long job interview. I even have an article coming out later in which I cover the ways that athletes have legally cheated on the Combine tests. The Combine has done a good job at getting those loopholes closed, but they were fun while they lasted. In the end, to me, game film is far more important, but every year that gets ignored on at least a few players.

A player like McClain, whether he goes 1st round or not, will hire an agent. The agent will then sign him up with such a camp and drop the $25,000.00 – $30,000.00 that it costs to have the player fully trained for the Combine – they are taught a wide range of skills including running ability, how to run the 40 specifically, enhancing proprioception, how to interview and a whole host of other subjects. One example, of course, is the 40 yard dash, which has been in predraft testing since, I think it was Paul Brown (it’s in my notes, but on this subject they aer voluminous) as a rough estimate of how far they’d have to run to cover a punt. It’s an anachronism, in many ways, but it does seem germane to CBs and WRs, mostly.

However – simply practicing proper technique for getting out of the blocks and covering the first 10 yards with the right technique can cut 0.2 seconds off of the time of nearly anyone, and with some it’s even higher. I mention this because at times, I’m not that concerned with timed speed due to this circumstance. If the player ranges from, say, 4.49 to 4. 77 over three runs, how fast is he? Is an average a realistic measurement? Really, there is a degree to which we are measuring the skill at the technique of running the 40 as much or more than we are finding out how fast the player is on the field.

A final note – I love Micah Johnson. There’s something about a Kentucky linebacker…..McClain would be great, but I also agree with those who see other scenarios, including Spikes and Johnson. There may well be more of that quality – I have not started to put any work together on that. To be honest, styg/Jeremy is so good at it that I often await his renderings as my starting point. The man knows his stuff.

Doc

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 1:25 PM MST up reply actions  

This may sound like an over simplification, but

If they all ‘cheat’ the same way… if they all train and hire gurus to get them to perform better… then isn’t it still apples to apples? Don’t we still know who’s faster, who can bench more, etc…

I didn’t miss your point, though, about a 40 yard dash not really being relevant to an ILB unless he already missed the back and is now chasing him to the end zone (different words of course). Thanks for the comment Doc

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Jan 29, 2010 4:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Back when this happened

This all started with a coach from Boston College. He had been to a Combine and saw ways to easily improve his players results. I don’t recall everything that he did offhand – it’s in my notes and I’ll put it in the article – but he sent about 6 players in and they all blew certain events away. He immediately became popular and more and more players did it. Of course, other coaches learned about it too, they taught the same things and eventually, the Combine learned what was going on. There was nothing illegal about it, so they just changed parts of the events to prevent this from going on.

However – the modern issue of improving player speed uses a concept that I’ve mentioned called ‘overspeed’ as well as a variety of others. The businesses that prepare the players prepare them for everything – the interviews, how to dress, how to talk, how to maximize results in each event. It does work and the Combine hates these programs. On the other hand – would you let a teenager take the SATs anymore without taking prep course or three first? Of course not – that student would be at a disadvantage. In essence, that’s what the modern programs do – the cheating has been weeded out, but the fact is that Combine is a week long job interview and it only makes sense for the players to prepare as well as they can.

The agents are convinced that it will give them their money back with a profit, even though they are limited by regulation to 3% of the players’ income. Most of them do. However – some of these programs are better than others. The best of them have very limited numbers of players and charge accordingly. I’ve seen some of their work, and I have to say, it’s very impressive.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 5:51 PM MST up reply actions  

surviving scrutiny

McClain may become tarnished if/when his speed is shown to be less than billed or his pass coverage appears suspect. I’ve even seen a few criticisms lately, which seems to be part of a natural cycle in which players are first touted and then panned during the over-analysis stage in the evaluation process.

All ratings are arguable, and ILB is position that’s suffered from devaluation in recent years. However, what makes McClain possibly immune to this effect somewhat is the apparent fact that he’s a 3-down backer. As such, he could belong in with the OLBs in terms of ratings, and OLBs have not suffered from the same decline that ILBs have.

McClain’s stock will rise or fall depending, largely, on how well he shows in the speed department and associated drills that employ speed related skills. He’s still an attractive prospect for teams seeking an ILB but the question is whether he winds up in the Maualuga category or the Curry category.

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Jan 29, 2010 1:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Everything that I've read and seen

Has led me to believe that McClain is a 3 down back. I also gree that LBs often fall down the charts, but there’s always an Arron Curry or a similar guy who goes against the grain and floats up the Board. It will be interesting to see who rises and who falls.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 1:28 PM MST up reply actions  

By the way, Colinski

Do you think that Kindle could move inside? He has the size and speed – any thoughts?

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 2:09 PM MST up reply actions  

From everything I've ever heard and seen

I thought he was a three down back, also. Well until this post

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Jan 29, 2010 4:56 PM MST up reply actions  

projecting

All I know is what I read.

It’s annoying to see all the big & fast types used at OLB, although it’s understandable.

My impression is that he’s a speed rusher type so it’s a question of well he can shed blockers and diagnose plays. CBS has questioned his instincts so his skill set doesn’t look right for ILB. He might work as a OLB34, but not on the strongside.

Many of the appropriate somatype are tracked into becoming pass rushing specialists who rely solely on speed and lack technique. McClain’s biggest asset, among many, could be that he’s already an ILB34, There’re getting to be rare, since all of them are being made into pass rushing DEs. The big OLBs/DEs who are strong at run defense are who I try to identify. I’m only guessing at this point though. And I’m not finding this crop to be that strong.

no goats, no glory.

by Colinski on Jan 29, 2010 5:21 PM MST up reply actions  

You might well be right
I also think that we are a lot thinner at DE than people seem to believe.

As I noted – we have a lot of ‘backup beef’. Next year will tell us a great deal about the level of skill that those players have and whether they can help us or not.

If the answer is ‘Not’ then I agree with you wholeheartedly – we’ll need more help on the D-line. I think that it doesn’t come up that often because we do have a lot of guys who might be able to step up. Reality is that as fans, we have no idea what kind of progress they’ve made, and that makes analysis very tough.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 1:54 PM MST up reply actions  

I completely agree with this

Much of my analysis of the state really comes in from how poorly the starting guys played. Or how well they didn’t play if you want to look at it that way. Also bringing in guys like Smith and Holiday at the end shows a real lack of confidence IMHO. But maybe Josh just likes veterans or there’s some other answer.

by Fan in Exile on Jan 30, 2010 7:44 AM MST up reply actions  

Interesting point
Also bringing in guys like Smith and Holiday at the end shows a real lack of confidence IMHO

I imagine that at this beginning of this season he had no shortage of concerns about the line. Even so – I think that he was just trying to field the best team he could in that time constraint. Sometimes I don’t think that the fans even consider how much needed to be done and how little time they’ve had at it. As I like to point out, rookies=mistakes, so trying out veterans who have been good backups and seeing if they can make the jump wasn’t unreasonable. Unfortunately the answer was no, so we’ve got some work to do.

I’m with you by the way. Start with the trenches, offensive and defensive. If those are good, it might be a nice year. If not….oy………

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 30, 2010 11:32 AM MST up reply actions  

Great Post Doc

Rec’d

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Jan 29, 2010 8:53 AM MST reply actions  

Excellent review of an essential position to upgrade.

There does need to be some patience with some of the players in new positons and a new system.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Jan 29, 2010 10:24 AM MST reply actions  

So, we end up with a couple of docs sitting around and talking about 'Patience'...;-)
There does need to be some patience with some of the players in new positions and a new system.

Please pardon the pun….I think that your point is really important. When I look at some of the best programs around the league, those who are in the playoff hunt, year after year, one consistency is that they ‘promote from within’. They are patient with their players, train them up for what they need to do, and fans, on the other hand, can be incredibly quick to demand change.

When you look at our LBs, Doom, Reid, DJ, Ayers and Haggan are at positions that they haven’t played before or haven’t played full time. Woodyard hasn’t been a nickel before, to my knowledge. While you could argue that Haggan has been a SAM, it was in a very different 4-3 system. Think about that…

That’s a lot of newbies, and one big reason that I think that you have to keep Davis on the squad for his experience, mentoring and personal coaching of the younger guys. We’ve got Brandon Kelley on the PS and we are likely to add an ILB. Davis is a huge asset, even though it creates a numbers crunch that may be difficult.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Jan 29, 2010 1:36 PM MST reply actions  

LOL - you just couldn't resist that opening!

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Jan 29, 2010 4:18 PM MST up reply actions  

D

I agree with most of your assessments, we definitely need 1 or 2 CBs, we are getting very long in the tooth at that position and we need some youth to be ready to take over gradually, we also need credible depth especially at the nickel position.

Safety does seem set, with Mcbath being the next in line and Barrett and Bruton both providing relief play.

I think we need an upgrade at DE like you said, Smith was disappointing, Peterson isn’t able to hold up, Holliday is getting very close to his football expiry date, getting a starting quality player at DE would really help a lot, we might have a player in the system already who could provide that boost (hopefully) but we do need an upgrade.

At ILB we do need to plan for the post Andra Davis era, getting someone who can take over defensive alignment tasks as well as providing solid tackling with better pass coverage would help the team as a whole, Davis is good against the run but limited against the pass.

At OLB we do need an upgrade, currently we are in a situation wher we either play a run heavy defense with Haggan or a pass defense with Ayers. If Ayers takes a few steps in the right direction he might become a complete OLB, but for now that looks to be some ways off. Reid was mostly used in the 40 passing front we used as a DT with Ayers and Dumervil playing outside and Reid and Peterson often playing inside.

by gyldenlove on Jan 29, 2010 9:19 PM MST reply actions  

Doc, I read this again today after more comments came in.

I was impressed by the thought of giving the guys that we have “in house” a chance to contribute on the DL. It makes a lot of sense to allow these guys time to develop. I feel a little uneasy about that though I think it is a very good idea. I guess if there was a good NT candidate available either in the draft or FA, I would jump at it. Were that player be able to contribute early on in preseason as well as the season, it would allow either Thomas or Fields or (depending on Baker’s development) both to move to the 5 technique position.

Also after rereading everything, I am with you on the need for an ILB. I agree that Micah Thompson appears to be a good candidate for us. A little farther down in the draft – by the time April comes, he may be a 2/3 rd pick projection. I guess we will see how the cards fall.

Thanks, my friend, for your energy and time. Hope this didn’t cut too much into some quality nap time.

by Blackknigh on Jan 29, 2010 11:52 PM MST reply actions  

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