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Around SBN: Ellenberger vs. Sanchez Heats Up, Hughes Talks Retirement

The Dude Abides...The Stats That Don't Lie, Week 17

Quick to the stats to the stats no fakin', cookin' MCs like a pound of bacon.

--Vanilla Ice

Alright, stop.  Collaborate and listen.  Josh is back with a brand new invention.  

You knew I couldn't get through a whole season without bringing out the worst song of all time

I'm not sure what's worse.   That song or the idea that Week 17 actually meant anything in the NFL.   The way things ended up, there wasn't much drama involved, as both the Ravens and Jets took care of business.  As expected, the Raiders got the business end of another loss.  Sorry, Pittsburgh. Sorry, Houston.   And sorry, Den....

I guess I could give an apology to the Denver Broncos, too.  But they really don't deserve one.  With the effort they put out last Sunday, they could have possibly been the ugliest part of Week 17--perhaps the entire second half of the season.  In the end, they were killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom.

Welcome to the season-ending edition of the That Stats That Don't Lie, your statistical hook while the DJ (not Williams) revolves it. These are these stats that could never produce a one-hit wonder.  They are the stats that don't sample Queen or David Bowie.  As always they are Turnovers, Field Position, Time of Possession, and 3rd-Down Efficiency.

This week, in addition to the normal cornucopia of stats, we're going to take a look at the Denver Broncos from two different sides.  First, the team that "rocked the mic like a vandal" in their 8 wins..  Then, we'll look at what they became in their 8 losses: sucka MCs.  All through the prism of Ice Ice Baby, which will always be worse torture than a season-ending collapse.

Star-divide

A Tale of Two Rappers

The 2009 Denver Broncos really were two different teams.  In the games they won, they usually played great defense, took advantage of timely turnovers, and generally had fewer mistakes (translation: turnovers).  In the games they lost, the defense was gutted in the running game, mistakes were aplenty, and the offense had to play against their strength, which was playing catch-up football.

If you read my work, you know I think you can learn a lot from studying a profile of how your opponent typically loses.. We can do the same thing with the Broncos.  Here are the side-by-side statistical profiles of Denver's 8 wins next to Denver's 8 losses:

8 WINS- Rockin the Mic
 8 LOSSES - Sucka MCs
CATEGORY DENVER OPPONENT   DENVER OPPONENT
Points 25 11   15 30
1st Qtr 4 5   3 6
2nd Qtr 7 3   3 7
3rd Qtr 5 1   7 6
4th Qtr 9 2   2 11
Overtime 0 0   0 0
 




First Downs 21 15   17 21
Rushing 7 4   5 8
Passing 12 10   12 11
Penalty 2 1   1 2
           
3rd Down Conv Pct 37.58% 27.55%   33.08% 44.46%
4th Down Conv Pct 31.25% 31.25%   50.00% 37.50%
Red Zone Conv Pct 44.58% 33.33%   40.63% 53.96%
Goal to Go Conv Pct 53.13% 43.75%   43.75% 85.42%
           
Avg. Gain Per Play 5.68 4.21   4.84 5.78
Net Yards Rushing 147 79   82 179
Total Rushing Plays 34 23   21 34
Avg. Gain Per Rush 4.29 3.40   3.94 5.25
           
Net Yards Passing 227 179   226 193
Times Sacked 2 3   3 2
Gross Yards Passing 236 197   242 206
Pass Attempts 31 35   39 29
Completion Pct 62.97% 56.72%   58.62% 62.67%
Avg. Gain Per Pass 7.03 4.66   5.34 6.31
           
Interceptions 0 1   1 1
Fumbles / Fum. Lost 1/1 2/1   1/1 1/1
Penalties 6 5   6 5
PenaltyYards 44 44   56 47
           
Gross Punting Average 47.41 47.55   42.04 45.36
Net Punting Average 36.04 39.43   38.30 40.06
Punt Return Avg. 10.29 17.91   6.44 5.86
Kickoff Return Avg. 21.85 22.19   20.99 22.35
Time of Possession 32:37:45 27:58:38   27:45:45 32:14:15

 

For those of you that don't like stats or tables (it makes me cry like a Raiders fan), allow me to summarize:

  • For bad or worse, Denver was defined by how it played in the 2nd half, and in particular, the 4th quarter.  The numbers show that in most of Denver's games, there wasn't nearly as much scoring in the 1st half as there was the 2nd.  And even in their losses, the Broncos still outscored their opponents in the 3rd quarter.   The 4th quarter was very hot and cold.  Denver was either dominant or was completely dominated.  They averaged 9 points per 4th quarter in their wins.  They averaged a grisly 2 points per 4th quarter in their losses.  They also gave up, on average, 11 points per 4th quarter as well.   That's hideous.  Love it or leave it, Denver, you better gain weight.
  • In their wins, Denver averaged almost 2 more first downs via the run.  As many have alluded, Denver often abandoned its running game in its 8 losses.  Conversely, Denver's opponents, on average, doubled the number of first downs they got on the ground  Although passing correlates more directly with winning in today's NFL, Denver's inability to sustain its running game was quite evident when it lost.
  • Denver was fairly consistently average on 3rd downs, in the red-zone, and on goal-to-go situations in both wins and losses.  However, its opponents had significantly higher percentages when Denver lost.  During its 8 losses, Denver's opponents were 45% on 3rd downs, 54% in the red zone, and a staggering 85% in goal-to-goal conversions.  Let's hope Chris Baker will be rocking Fat Burgers in the offseason.  Denver will need that beef up the middle.   And lost in all the Dumervil sack-record talk?  His less-than-stellar run defense.  But he will get better at this.  
  • If there is one thing you should take from this week is it this:  In Denver's losses, they allowed an ungodly average of 179 yards rushing per game.  This is a full 100 yards more than in their wins.  Quick, let's trade Brandon Marshall to the Rams so we can draft Ndamukong Suh.  Maybe the Rams won't notice that Marshall gets the chills sometimes--like, I don't know, once he hits 100 catches.
  • In the passing game, Orton's numbers were fairly comparable during losses and wins.  His completion percentage and yards-per-pass numbers were slightly lower during losses, however.  The guy is simply steady. Expect more of the same.  One would like to see his yards/pass average get into the 7.5-8.0 range next year.
  • In their losses, the Broncos forced less turnovers.  No surprise there.  What was surprising, though, was that the penalty numbers were almost exactly the same during wins and losses.
  • Regarding special teams, I'm finally glad we can put the Brett Kern-Mitch Berger telenovela behind us.  Look at the numbers, friends.  And not the gross average.  Look at the Net Average.  In the 8 losses (can we all chant Berger Time!) the net average per punt actually went up by almost 2-and-a-half yards.  Did Berger have a few clunkers? Sure.  Is he the long-term answer at Punter?  No.   But Denver's punting game actually improved over Kern when they signed Berger.   I don't care what Kern did once he left the Broncos.  That's a Tennessee Titans statistic.  These are the numbers Denver saw and what they got when they brought Berger in.  At the very worst, one would say it was a wash (which I'm not).   But it probably improved Denver's special teams overall.   In the future, let's hope we can have the best of both worlds.  A high-gross and a high-net average.  Word to your Berger.
  • The Broncos benefited by better returning (and a smaller sample size) in the punting game when it won. However, its kickoff-return game was consistently underwhelming in both wins and losses, averaging between 21-22 yards-per-kick return.  Eddie Royal is not the answer at returner.   Eddie Royal is the answer to the question of who should be the slot receiver.
  • In another not-so-surprising development, Denver dominated the time of possession when it won and got buried by the stat when it lost.

Final Team Rankings 

TEAMTurnoversRankTO MarginRankField PositionRankTOPRank3rd DownRank
GB 1.00 1 1.50 1 32.75 2 33:02:45 3 45.06% 4
SD 1.00 1 0.53 6 30.48 11 30:04:32 15 44.16% 6
MIN 1.13 3 0.38 9 32.93 1 32:51:11 5 45.12% 3
DAL 1.19 4 0.13 13 27.44 29 32:16:30 6 39.42% 15
NE 1.38 5 0.38 9 29.86 17 33:05:56 2 43.40% 7
BAL 1.38 5 0.63 4 31.84 5 29:33:34 19 40.15% 12
SF 1.38 5 1.00 2 28.90 20 29:34:30 18 29.28% 30
PHI 1.44 8 0.94 3 30.40 13 27:57:04 30 36.65% 19
DEN 1.44 8 0.44 8 29.42 18 30:11:37 13 35.21% 23
IND 1.56 10 0.06 15 28.50 23 27:40:00 31 48.00% 1
JAX 1.56 10 -0.13 19 28.32 25 30:53:30 12 43.28% 8
ATL 1.56 10 0.19 12 30.45 12 29:53:56 17 41.64% 9
CIN 1.56 10 0.00 17 30.62 9 33:06:49 1 40.85% 11
WAS 1.56 10 -0.63 28 28.18 26 29:15:08 20 38.63% 17
PIT 1.63 15 -0.31 22 29.30 19 32:53:26 4 39.75% 13
NO 1.69 15 0.63 4 31.42 7 31:36:04 10 44.47% 5
KC 1.69 15 0.13 13 28.75 21 28:19:08 28 26.62% 32
MIA 1.75 18 -0.44 24 28.67 22 31:59:11 8 47.99% 2
HOU 1.75 18 -0.06 18 30.21 15 31:21:19 11 39.47% 14
BUF 1.75 18 0.50 7 31.19 8 28:37:45 26 28.19% 31
NYJ 1.88 21 0.06 15 32.48 3 32:02:23 7 37.82% 18
NYG 1.94 22 -0.44 24 30.38 14 31:39:38 9 41.37% 10
TEN 1.94 22 -0.19 20 27.11 30 28:41:45 25 39.24% 16
CAR 1.94 22 0.38 9 28.40 24 30:10:15 14 36.00% 22
SEA 1.94 22 -0.50 27 28.10 27 27:30:41 32 32.22% 27
CLE 1.94 22 -0.75 29 31.75 6 28:54:34 22 31.49% 28
STL 2.06 27 -0.94 31 28.05 28 29:10:34 21 32.90% 26
OAK 2.06 27 -0.81 30 27.08 31 28:17:45 29 29.74% 29
TB 2.12 29 -0.24 21 30.49 10 28:41:46 24 33.10% 25
CHI 2.13 30 -0.38 23 32.08 4 28:36:52 27 36.27% 20
ARZ 2.25 31 -0.44 24 30.17 16 29:55:23 16 36.15% 21
DET 2.56 32 -1.13 32 27.06 32 28:53:26 23 34.78% 24

 

The league per-game average (rounded) for the season in these four categories is:

Turnovers (giveaways): 1.70

Field Position: 30-yard line

Time Of Possession: 30:00

3rd-Down Effiecienty: 38%

The only category in which Denver was better than average was turnovers per game.   3rd downs were their big problem, as we have alluded to numerous times.  They finished the year with a paltry 35% per-game average on 3rd downs.  The quickest clue to what Denver will be doing in free agency and the draft can be found within the confines of improving on 3rd downs.  

Since these are the final rankings, I'll point out a few more things that might not jump out at you immediately.  First, notice that of the teams in the top-ten in turnovers per game, only two are not in the playoffs.  One of them happens to be the Broncos, but put that aside for the moment, and ask yourself if keeping a QB who doesn't throw a lot of interceptions is a good idea.  If you have any hesitation, look at the bottom-10 teams in turnovers. Aside from the Bears being 3rd-worst (pause while everyone giggles), you'll notice that not one of them is in the playoffs this year. Again, is keeping an average quarterback who doesn't throw a lot of picks a good thing? The answer is evident--if you want to make the playoffs.  In other words, McDaniels is keeping Orton around. Yo, VIP, let's kick it.   

Another way these stats can prove helpful is in determining which teams will be next year's surprises.  The trick is to look at the 3rd-down percentages.  As I indicated last week, there has been quality research done (namely by the Football Outsiders) to show that teams that are bad on 3rd downs, but who are generally good on 1st and 2nd downs, tend to improve significantly in following years.    I put the Broncos in this category.   Who else would be good candidates?  Here are two teams that jump to mind (along with the Broncos for review):

  • Carolina: 36% on 3rd downs, but a 7.01-yard average when passing on 2nd down.
  • Tennessee: 39% on 3rd downs, but 7.10-yard average when passing on 1st down.
  • Denver: 35% on 3rd downs, but 7.0-yard average when passing on 1st down.

I'll be doing a longer analysis on this one subject in the offseason, but for now, expect all three of these teams to have more wins next year.

Lastly, these rankings wouldn't be worth anything if I didn't try to apply them to the upcoming playoff games:

Green Bay vs. Arizona - Green Bay will destroy them twice in two weeks.  I've been as high on Aaron Rodgers as anyone all season and I don't see a reason why I should stop now.  Green Bay doesn't turn the ball over, they are hideously good on 3rd downs, and they will control field position again.  Arizona is just the opposite.  Lucky for them, they play in the NFC West.  Their luck runs out this weekend.

Philadelphia vs. Dallas - The hardest game to call because they are so similar statistically.  Even their scoring ratios (points/points allowed) are close.  Dallas sports a ratio of 1.44.  Philly's ratio is 1.27.  As much as it pains me to say this, Dallas should win the game given their superior ratio and the fact that home-field advantage generally gives the home team a 3-point edge.  

New York Jets vs. Cincinnati - A lot was made about the Jets receiving the benefit of teams resting their starters against them for two weeks in a row.  If you judged the Jets this way, you've made a mistake.  Their time-of-possession stat isn't just a result of them killing the clock after getting a big lead.  These guys make a commitment to the run unlike any other team in the league, running the ball 59% of the time.  Rex Ryan is no chump (although he is still quite annoying).  He knows this is the best formula to win while breaking in a rookie quarterback.   Even if the Bengals win, don't expect a blowout.  The Jets were only beaten badly once all year.  So give me the Jets.  Just on a day when Mark Sanchez doesn't throw the ball more than 18-22 times.  

Baltimore vs. New England - With the loss of Wes Welker this becomes a difficult game to pick.  The scoring ratios for these two teams are virtually deadlocked (scoring ratio, as you know if you've followed these weekly pieces, correlates highly with winning percentage).  Each has a ratio of 1.498.   And statistically, both have been holding onto the ball well. Again, since the home field adds 3 points, just give me the hoodie.

 

The Game Summaries - Girls Wearing Less Than Bikinis

GAMEScoreTOsTOPThird DownField Pos GAMEScoreTOsTOPThird DownField Pos
IND 7 3 22:26:00 27.27% 31.75   ATL 20 3 35:29:00 46.67% 27.27
BUF 30 0 37:34:00 35.71% 35.92   TB 10 2 24:31:00 46.67% 34.17
                         
NO 10 3 29:22:00 15.38% 31.38   PHI 0 1 19:37:00 25.00% 23.82
CAR 23 0 30:38:00 20.00% 27.20   DAL 24 1 40:23:00 38.46% 27.27
                         
JAX 17 1 27:02:00 52.94% 27.50   GB 33 1 37:27:00 41.67% 30.22
CLE 23 1 32:58:00 35.71% 38.20   ARI 7 3 22:33:00 50.00% 27.78
                         
CHI 37 0 29:13:00 46.67% 32.50   KC 44 2 26:57:00 30.00% 17.92
DET 23 2 30:47:00 35.71% 33.67   DEN 24 3 33:03:00 46.67% 25.50
                         
NE 27 2 28:26:00 40.00% 21.90   BAL 21 0 27:46:00 42.86% 30.09
HOU 34 1 31:34:00 42.86% 33.00   OAK 13 2 32:14:00 46.15% 24.70
                         
PIT 30 2 32:38:00 50.00% 33.67   WAS 20 0 32:33:00 50.00% 26.90
MIA 24 2 27:22:00 58.33% 31.91   SD 23 1 27:27:00 46.15% 33.64
                         
NYG 7 2 23:08:00 12.50% 25.09   TEN 17 2 32:22:00 42.86% 23.91
MIN 44 0 36:52:00 33.33% 38.18   SEA 13 1 27:38:00 30.77% 31.45
                         
SF 28 0 33:08:00 26.67% 24.40   CIN 0 3 18:46:00 9.09% 37.60
STL 6 0 26:52:00 11.11% 30.80   NYJ 37 0 41:14:00 61.11% 45.18

 

Unfortunately, there weren't many games that had meaning from Week 17, but we'll briefly address what happened to the Broncos.  There's not much to be said that hasn't already been said.  On a day when Denver finally won time of possession, field position, and the 3rd-down battle, the true strength of the team (not turning the ball over) faltered. And the context of these turnovers was even worse because they were all committed in the 2nd half.  Denver had 8 total drives in the 2nd half.  Three of them ended up in turnovers that cost the Broncos 14 points.  Actually, it cost them more. This brings us to a concept which we'll discuss more in the offseason, but it's the concept of expected point value. 

The True Cost of a Turnover - Vanilla With a Nine

Every down and distance on the field has an expected point value, which can be measured by averaging how many points will be scored next and by whom (either the offense or the defense).  As Brian Burke explains so nicely over at Advanced NFL Stats:

Every other yard line has a point value too. We can measure it by averaging how many points will be scored next. For example, having a 1st down and 10 from an opponent's 20 yard line is worth, on average, about 4.2 points. Often the offense will score a touchdown, and failing that, it is likely to be able to kick a field goal. But sometimes, the offense will fail to do either, and the opponent may be the next to score. In other cases, neither team will score immediately, and they will exchange possession until someone does score.

There have been numerous studies placing a value on each down and distance for each yard line.  Thus, on both of Denver's interceptions, we can place an expected value on their position just before the interception.  Orton's first interception came in the 3rd quarter when Denver faced a 1st and 10 on its own 24-yard line.  The expected point value of this down and distance was .51 points.  Thus when Orton threw the pick-six interception, not only did it cost the Broncos the 7 points that the Chiefs scored on the play, it also cost them their expected .51 points.  So the real value of Orton's interception to the Chiefs was 7.51 points.  

We can go through the same process on Orton's 2nd interception as well.  Denver faced a 2nd and 11 at Kansas City's 40-yard line.  The expected point value for this down and distance was 1.99 points.  So when Orton threw the pick-six again, we simply give Kansas City the 7 points, plus the 1.99 points that Denver essentially lost.  Thus, we are talking really about an 8.99-point swing.  

All-in-all, Orton's two pick-six interceptions didn't just cost Denver 14 points.  It cost them 16.5 points.  Given that Denver lost by 20 total points, one can begin to see just how devastating a pick-six turnover can truly be.  


The Summaries

2-Turnover Rule  (Explained Here)

  • 9 teams had 0 turnovers. 7 won (78%); For the season, 78/100 (78%)

  • 8 teams had 1 turnover. 5 won (63%); For the season, 88/150 (59%)

  • 9 teams had 2 turnovers.  3 won (33%); For the season, 61/137 (45%)

  • 6 teams had 3 turnovers. 1 won (17%); For the season, 24/78 (31%)

  • No team had 4 turnovers; For the season, 4/32 (13%)

  • No teams had 5+ turnovers; For the season, 0/15 (0%)

Week 17 - Big Picture
  • The team that won the turnover battle (removing ties) won 9 of 12 games played (75%) 

  • 4 games were tied in the turnover battle.

  • The team that won the time of possession battle won 12 of the 16 games played (75%).  

  • The team that had better third-down efficiency won 10 of the 16 games played (63%).

  • The team that had better average starting field position won 10 of the 16 games played (63%)

  • There were 4 games this week in which a team won all four categories.  In all 4, the same team won on the scoreboard (100%).  

  • The winning teams this week averaged .88 turnovers, 33:21  in time of possession, 40.05% on 3rd downs, and their average starting field position was the 31.16-yard line.  

End-Of-The-Season Totals:
  • 256 games were played this season

  • 76.4% (or 162/212) were won by the team with less turnovers (removing ties)

  • 44 games were tied in the turnover battle

  • 68.36% with a better time of possession

  • 69.14% by the team who won on 3rd down

  • 70.31% by the team that won the field-position battle.

The Look Ahead - My Style's Like a Chemical Spill

If you are a Broncos Fan from the late 60s and early 70s, you might be tempted to laugh at all of the Broncos fans today screaming like primates after an 8-8 campaign.  In the early days, Denver had a dozen seasons in which it won 4 games or less.  Or, if you were at the 1996 AFC Divisional Playoff game against the Jacksonville Jaguars (like me), you might even be tempted to laugh when people say things like, "this is the worst choke in NFL history."   

Please.  I still have nightmares of Tory James being beaten in the corner of the end zone.  I still remember Shannon Sharpe saying the loss would set the organization back 5 years.  We all know what happened soon after.

So let's just put things into perspective.  As bad as things seem right now, they could always be much worse. Since 2005, the Broncos haven't had a playoff berth.  In that stretch, their record has been 32-32.  So, as Broncos fans, we've experienced just about as many highs as we have lows.  Well, perhaps a few more lows given how the team has faltered after fast starts.  However, that's not the point.  The point is, there are many teams that can't even break even.  These are truly the chumps of the NFL.  

Like the Oakland Raiders, for example.   While they might get all giddy after beating the Broncos, their record in the same stretch since 2005?  A rather Raider-like 16-48.   Yikes.  I am sure that USC really could have beaten them in some of these years.  Will it ever stop? Yo, I don't know.  Turn off the lights, and Al Davis will glow.

Or how about the Matt Millen-lead Detroit Lions?  Their record in the same period?  An even worse 12-52.  If you're getting worked up over 8-8, imagine what you would do if you were a Lions fan.  Want to bash Kyle Orton?  Try Joey Harrington.  Don't like Eddie Royal?  Try Charles Rogers.  Millen is lucky he got out of Detroit in one piece.  He truly was the Vanilla Ice of general managers.  A simple novelty act that hung around too long.  

So, let's get some perspective, Broncos fans.  The Broncos are not heading for the cellar.  I'm not going to tell you that we are one player away.  That would be something the new coach for the Washington Redskins would say.  But we're closer to ten wins than six, in case you didn't know it. 

Josh Josh, baby.


Post-Script--Rollin' in my 5.0

Now that we've hit the offseason, I can't wait to work on several projects.  So please keep checking back at MHR. I'm currently working on things like a correlation bible, a gunslinger-game manager index, an update of the 2-turnover rule, an expected-points analysis of every Broncos play from the 2009 Season, and hopefully, along with other members here like Doug Lee, Jeremy Bolander, Steve Nichols, Tim Lynch, and Emmett Smith, some tag team articles on the upcoming draft. 

But I'm taking requests.  If there is anything that you would like to see researched, please email me or leave your comments below.

Go Broncos!  And just remember that neck beards never go out of fashion. 

Comment 109 comments  |  15 recs  | 

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I love these posts

Your writing is excellent and your incorporation of fun elements like some Vanilla Ice is outstanding. I look forward to these posts each week as much for the stats as I do for the pop culture references. Great work.

by afeather on Jan 6, 2010 8:15 AM MST reply actions  

First, Mecklenburg, baby! Yeah! Thanks for reading. I never really know how many people sludge through them.

Stats in a vacuum? Blah. Stats will doing a headspin….exciting:-)

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:31 AM MST up reply actions  

Vanilla Ice? What have I ever done to you?

No one deserves to be Vanilla Iced this early in the morning. It’s going to take a lot of Cult of Luna to drown out that “ice ice baby” hook echoing in my ears just by reading the words Vanilla and Ice in the same sentence. Where are my headphones.

Man is not a rational animal, he is a rationalizing animal.

by MrFNSunshine on Jan 6, 2010 8:29 AM MST reply actions  

Correction

It is actually a Queen / David Bowie hook VI ripped off, but who’s counting?

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Jan 6, 2010 9:19 AM MST up reply actions  

No no

Vanilla hissef’ has addressed this. While the Queen/David Bowie hook goes “dun dun dun dun DUN dun”, his goes “dun dun dun DUN dun dun”.

All clear now? ;)

by AllBroncsallday on Jan 6, 2010 9:32 AM MST up reply actions  

I always thought it was the "che che"

as in dun dun dun da-da dun dun (che che), dun dun dun da-da dun dun (che che)…I am ashamed of myself…

by RalphW on Jan 6, 2010 9:37 AM MST up reply actions  

See, you have that discerning ear

Yet still he lost the lawsuit. An outrage! ;)

by AllBroncsallday on Jan 6, 2010 7:46 PM MST up reply actions  

LOL

Check the lawsuit…I’m pretty sure he lost

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Jan 6, 2010 11:19 AM MST up reply actions  

gasp

You mean, that tactic didn’t work??? I’m stunned, stunned I say!! hahahaha

by AllBroncsallday on Jan 6, 2010 11:26 AM MST up reply actions  

Later he came back with this little ditty:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x63EDuNGVi8&feature=related

Club style.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:52 AM MST up reply actions  

A season-ending loss that tears out your heart followed by a season-ending song tha makes your ears bleed.

Dude, I should apologize. I am truly sorry about this:-)

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:30 AM MST up reply actions  

A season-ending loss...

breaks my Achy Breaky Heart.

You know where I’m coming from?

Talk is for Losers and Fools.

by Victim of Love on Jan 6, 2010 12:36 PM MST up reply actions  

I just don't think he'll understand....but I got you!

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 7:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Something, grabs a hold of me tightly...

Oh gee, thanks. Now I’m going to have that song stuck in my head for the rest of the day. :P

by jello44 on Jan 6, 2010 8:39 AM MST reply actions  

I should aplogize. Just promise me...no head bopping at work.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:28 AM MST up reply actions  

Head bopping!?!?!

I’m trying to find my VI outfit!!!!

- Nick

"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.

by ncm42 on Jan 6, 2010 11:18 AM MST up reply actions  

Cmon man...

You know you’re doing the Running Man when no one is looking!

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Jan 6, 2010 11:20 AM MST up reply actions  

Hahahahah...

In my baggy pants and shirt open to my navel! I’ve been told I shouldn’t do that (or any) dance, even when no one is looking,….

- Nick

"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.

by ncm42 on Jan 7, 2010 8:39 PM MST up reply actions  

You continue to highlight the wisdom that is John Bena for putting you on Staff!

Love your articles, and love your style…Bring it Dude!

-Richee
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!

by BroncoSense72 on Jan 6, 2010 8:43 AM MST reply actions  

Thanks BS! I appreciate John for taking a chance on me as well. I hope I can continue to merit

you reading my stuff. I’ll try not to geek it up too much (not that I could).

Now I have to cram as much pop culture into the off season as possible. It sure would get ugly if I ever descend into the Macarena or Barbi Girl.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:27 AM MST up reply actions  

If we do 13-3 next year

You can do Lady Ga-Ga for all I care!
I love the pop culture references.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 6, 2010 10:04 AM MST up reply actions  

Nice, Nice, TJ

You brought it all year, Dude. Kudos. The Dude abides. I sure do like the sound of that.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
Girl, you don't need to be a 10, as long as you have a good smile and smell like bacon.

by Troy Hufford on Jan 6, 2010 8:49 AM MST reply actions  

Thanks, Kentucky. The Dude just wants his rug back.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:23 AM MST up reply actions  

Punting

Statistics are helpful for certain purposes, but I think they lie when it comes to the punting situation in Denver in 2009. Part of net yardage is the coverage of your special teams. Reducing returns by shanking or shorting punts is not a preferable option to having your special teams gunners get down there on long kicks and nailing the returner. In his day, Berger was a good punter, but this was a knucklehead move, IMHO.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jan 6, 2010 8:52 AM MST reply actions  

BB, Thanks for taking the time. I agree. This is precisely why what Kern did with the Titans is less useful.

I can’t argue that Berger is the long term solution, but I think the reason behind why McDaniels brought Berger in was reasonable. Clearly, it didn’t work out as well as he had hoped. But it was clear what he was trying to to with the move. Kern was out kicking the coverage in the first 4 games to be sure and it was causing some field position issues. McDaniels wanted a guy with more hang time and less of a net average. Which I think he got. But…

He also got a guy who took a few games to get into football-kicking shape. Berger had some good games (like the last one), but some awful one as well. One would have to be drinking some seriously-tainted Kool-Aid to not have seen some of those really bad 20-yard punts. By the way, I have been accused of drinking liters by my good friend, McGeorge, but I still watch him breakdance:-) Thanks again, BB

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:22 AM MST up reply actions  

Thank You

I am really trying to work with those of us who are trying to get beyond the Kool-Aid Drinker and CutlerBaby comments to a real discussion of what will make the Broncos better next year. Thank you for taking my comments in the spirit of constructive discussion. You are very bright and I enjoy reading your comments.

by Baltimore Bronco on Jan 6, 2010 12:01 PM MST up reply actions  

ROTFLMFAO

DUDE! That was the best article you’ve done all year. Vanilla Ice all day baby! LB rockin the mike like a vandal old school!

I’d rec’d you twice if I could. Best read of the year site-wide for the great mix of entertainment and football stat geekdom supreme!

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Jan 6, 2010 9:18 AM MST reply actions  

Geeks of the World, Unite! Wait, say what you want about the tenents of national socialism...

Thanks, sadaraine…keep checking back for more. The offseason is where the fun really begins…..as witnessed by what happened yesterday with Shanny.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:32 AM MST up reply actions  

so you said...

" But I’m taking requests"

so she said…In-a-gadda-da-vida baby !

not because that song has anything to do with football, or the Broncos…
I just wanna see if you can do it without hurting yourself. ; )

great stuff Mr. Lebo !

by Jenna Talia on Jan 6, 2010 9:21 AM MST reply actions  

JT! I always hurt myself. Always. A challenge to incorporate some Iron Butterfly?

…don’t you know that I’ll always be true!

I never know if you read my stats stuff, JT. I am glad you do!

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:44 AM MST up reply actions  

but can you

incorporate a 20 minute drum solo?

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Don’t worry about it. As an ignorant redneck, I’m qualified to say that

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 6, 2010 5:16 PM MST up reply actions  

No, Sean, but...I could write jibberish for that long....as anyone that reads this post each week:-)!

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:05 PM MST up reply actions  

Hahaha

No way Dude. Your typing solo’s rock! I’m holding my lighter up in the air right now :-D

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Don’t worry about it. As an ignorant redneck, I’m qualified to say that

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 7, 2010 3:15 AM MST up reply actions  

As always, great stuff! ("If my ryme/stats was a drug, I'd sell it by the gram")

Take-a-ways: Opponents Goal to go in losses = 85.42% (ugh, or better yet “killing your brain like a poisonous mushroom”)

Bronco’s Runshing average in W’s – 147 vs losses 82 – Granted, in losses we are throwing more like you stated, but still…

On a positive note, our pass D looks quite good and I agree wholeheartedly about Kyle MF Orton (too soon?). I will take leadership and consistancy anyday. I would also argue that a more than a few of his picks do not happen if the running game is improved.

Penalties – 6 vs 5, win or lose, huh? Funny, you only hear “the officials have a grudge against us” when we lose, though. I think that should go down next year as the O-Line is solidified (crossing my fingers) and player become more familiar with the system.

Nice to see that we made a HUGE (by my recolection) improvement in forcing turnovers from last year.

Agreed again on “The Look Ahead” as well. For us to be “rebuilding” at 8-8, I will take it. I had us for 10-6 this year, with the Cheifs and Oakland games being wrong. We really just have to win the games we should win and (mostly) stay injury free.

Requests: Orton’s record and stats with/ without the Beard. I have wondered about this all season, when he made the switch I had no idea what to expect…not sure how you woudl find this out, though.

by RalphW on Jan 6, 2010 9:34 AM MST reply actions  

I think most state that we should play above any bogus penalties

The Philly game was the only truely horrible game I saw this year. There’s always gonna be some bad calls… every team gets them at some point. Ok maybe Brady gets preference, so does Kobe… it sucks but good teams can overcome them most of the time. (minus oakland and the “tuck” rule). I’d probably say most that complain about the calls are hollow and probably only ranting.

I second the request for Orton’s stats with and without the Neckbeard.

I'm glad we had this talk.
(signature courtesy of TJ Johnson)

by BroncoInExile on Jan 6, 2010 12:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Ralph, don't tempt me, because I would actually try to take that request on!

All of your points I agree, but specifically with the 1st and 2nd. Ouuuuuuuch!

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:06 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for all the hard work, TJ

I’m not a stats guy (tables and charts and ratios make my eyes blur and my head spin) but I still get a lot of good info from your articles.
I’m thinking Arizona wins this week – they put out no effort last week while GB played like it meant something.
Dallas over the Eagles – no reason to think the Eagles can come up with 25 points in one week. (Dallas won the first game in Week 9 20-16)
Cincinnati over the Jets – it’s in Cincinnatie and Sanchez will lose if for them.
NE / Ravens? I dunno. Welker’s replacement caught 7 balls for 73 yards in three games that Welker missed some of, and he (Julian Edelman) had 37 catches for 359 yards on the season (his rookie year, but there ain’t any rookies this time of the season)

War is behavior with its roots in the primal sea - eat whatever you touch, or it will eat you. John Fowles

by bradley on Jan 6, 2010 9:57 AM MST reply actions  

Re: Dallas/Philly game
Dallas over the Eagles – no reason to think the Eagles can come up with 25 points in one week.

I think the fact that the Eagles average 26.8 points per game (5th best in the league) would be a reason to think they can come up with 25 points in one week.

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein

by c_style on Jan 6, 2010 8:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Is their center going to be healthy?

That was a HUGE issue for them against Dallas

by Arimaris on Jan 6, 2010 10:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Jamaal Jackson

was hurt in the Denver game and placed on IR.

War is behavior with its roots in the primal sea - eat whatever you touch, or it will eat you. John Fowles

by bradley on Jan 7, 2010 12:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Excellent post again - as usual!

I enjoy reading these alot.

"The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."

by cpa913 on Jan 6, 2010 10:03 AM MST reply actions  

Brandon Marshall to the Rams!

sigh What are the chances they fire their GM and hire Millen over the next couple of weeks?

by Arimaris on Jan 6, 2010 10:04 AM MST reply actions  

Matt Millen...oh, the good ol' days. I think Detroit hates him as much as Cleveland hated/hates Art Modell

Tell me, arimaris, why would they not be interesting in Marshall? I’m curious as to your thoughts.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:53 PM MST up reply actions  

They might be

But not for the top pick in the draft. I think they realize that he could benefit them, but trading away the top pick would be HUGE. If Suh (who I think they will take from all reports) turns out to be as good as advertised for the Broncos if this kind of trade happened then they would be dealing with not only that, but likely any fallout if Marshall continues his me first ways and ends up being the next TO. Tons of talent, potentially a difference maker, but completely not their in the head.

Now if the Broncos asked for maybe NEXT years 1st, this years 3rd and a role player (don’t know their roster well enough to say who) and threw in say this years 5th plus Marshall? THAT could be a trade that St Louis could live with and would be a pretty nice trade.

For St Louis now you have Marshall, Avery, and Amendola (sp). Pretty good lineup there and you kept the top pick. For the Broncos you get another piece (maybe a G or LB) and 2 picks for Marshall. Admittedly though it may be better to wait on the RFA offer and hope another team takes Marshall and we get the 1st and 3rd this year. Looking at that though the teams that I would think are interested do have potentially solid picks (Buffalo, Miami, Washington, Chicago).

Lots of interesting pieces here.

by Arimaris on Jan 6, 2010 10:22 PM MST up reply actions  

Hmm...

Really wondering who might be interested in Marshall now. Totally liking the Miami idea since Parcells likes big receivers who can win the 1 on 1 battles and they would really benefit from having him. Wonder if they would go for it since their receiving corps is a weaker point on the team.

I also wonder if Cleveland would join the crowd. Talk about a weak receiving corps and a President/Guru who seems to like to collect WRs

CURSE YOU TJ, I was going to bed…. :D

Thanks again for the stats this season though. LOVE stats! Now when’s my baseball starting?

by Arimaris on Jan 6, 2010 10:25 PM MST up reply actions  

Re: taking requests

“Drunken Lullabies” by Flogging Molly kind of sums up the seasons end for us.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 6, 2010 10:06 AM MST reply actions  

A little Irish, eh?

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Just a Wee bit

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Jan 6, 2010 9:29 PM MST up reply actions  

You da dude TJ

Rockin’ the mic on a two wheeled bike…… but seriously short yard/third down/goal line efficiency is a down right killer. It certainly killed the Broncos this year. And other teams being able to convert on the Broncos added to the misery…….Haven’t put my finger down on what I think the exact issue is, but Oline, play calling and execution all come to mind.

So sense you takin’ requests how about “The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway”………

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Jan 6, 2010 10:19 AM MST reply actions  

Chiper, Reeespect. You a Genesis fan? What about Peter Gabriel?

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Early Genesis for sure,

basically I love progressive rock (Yes, SpocksBeard, ELP…). Don’t like all Gabriel’s work, but generally like him.

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Jan 7, 2010 8:43 AM MST up reply actions  

Interesting. Most folks I think go the other way. Gabriel they like. Genesis not as much after.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 7, 2010 10:33 AM MST up reply actions  

Well I'm kind of like that,

Genesis starting going popish with Duke the second album after Peter left. There are some good song throughout, but, I tend to like the early stuff with Gabriel and Hackett on board.
While Peter has some good music out there, some comes across to “Talking Heads” like, and I don’t like their style.

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Jan 7, 2010 10:51 AM MST up reply actions  

This was great TJ. I probably got more out of this segment than any previous Stats That Don’t Lie.

Your end of season summation was extremely enlightening. Some observations:
1) Turnovers are supremely important.
2) While not evident from your chart, I still believe "winning" Time of Possession is a result of winning the game rather than the other way around.
3) Third down conversion is important but you can learn little from the stats. A team that has few third downs can have mediocre stats in that category and still be the best team in the league.
4) As I suspected all along, field position stats are of marginal value. The difference between best and worst teams’ average is less than 6 feet. Why you definitely want good field position, it is quite a stretch to apply significance to a stat that tells us the deviation from average is less than three feet.
5) Fourth down includes such a limited quantity of occurrences that you wouldn’t expect to be able to generate telling stats but that aside, fourth down attempts are typically pursued by teams already involved in a losing efforts (or who have basically already won), so –as so richly demonstrated by Denver’s stats (they are significantly better in their losing games), regardless of how you do on fourth down, it is generally unlikely to influence the outcome of the game.
6) This surprised me a great deal but (as I have often heard but not fully believed): A good rushing game is the difference between winning and losing.
7) So many people have been lamenting on Orton’s "dink and donk," his short passes and his inability to complete long passes because of his "noodle arm." While I know it will not, it ought to put all those comments to rest now that you have shown that Orton’s average gain per pass exceeds the opponents’ whether you compare winning or losing efforts.

by warmick on Jan 6, 2010 11:08 AM MST reply actions  

Warmick, first, thanks again. You, of all the folks that read these posts, have made me scrutinize how this all comes together.

It’s made me have to probe, clarify, and get better. For example, I should not have assumed that everyone already knows that running the ball in the 2nd half with a lead is going to reflect that TOP stat almost every week. Moreover, you made me realize that I could go a little deeper into other other stats as I used these “marker” stats as the narrative. Sure you can come across as abrasive at first, but you’ve been anything but a troll as we’ve exchanged views. I’m trying to improve constantly with this stuff.

Regarding your points:

1) Agree 100%. And context is even more important. Especially late turnovers.
2) Agree as well, except in some cases where we really do have a run-first team like this year’s Jets. Rex Ryan runs the ball 60% of the time, which is almost 10% more than anyone else. He does so to shorten games and keep Sanchez from throwing INTs. But most of the time, and from the drive charts and play-by-play charts I study each week, I’m with you.
3) Correct again, but over time as the sample becomes big enough, we can really show the trends. For example, Denver at 35%. But I agree, the stat itself doesn’t tell you the solution. It’s a marker as a sign of trouble. I think as the season went along, I tried to pull the curtain away and get into more reason why this market stat was at 35%, line the analysis of the 3rd downs two weeks ago with the O-Line.
4) Interesting. I would consider 6 yards is a pretty big difference. It’s interesting that you posted this, as I am working on a piece in my drafts file on this very subject. I’d like to have this exchange on that piece if I could. But, I would say that the Expected Point Value at the 20 yard line (1st and 10) is -.226. The expected value of 1st and 10 at the 26? .196. Over the course of a season, this can really add up. I look forward to your comments on that piece.
5) Agree on this point. Very much so.
6) Ha! I’ve made you a believer! But not so fast! The correlations between passing stats and winning pretty powerful. Part of it also goes back to the point about killing the clock in the 2nd half. But also, if you give up BIG running plays, like Denver did this year, it has the same sort of point value as passes do. So I think you’re still right to hold on to your other view because defenses that give up BIG plays will have the stats you see with Denver.
7) Agreed also

Scary! Thanks again for reading these and also for the insight, even if we disagree.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Interceptions

As I recall, Orton got out of the gates throwing only one INT over the course of the first 6 games…over the course of a season, at that rate, he would have thrown 2.6 INTs which frankly is mind blowing efficiency.

However…this means he threw 11 in the last 10 games which would have averaged out to 17.6 INTs over a 16 game season…which is pedestrian at best (that would have put him in the bottom 6 among the likes of Delhommme and Hasselbeck)….and I think this is where the Orton “non believers” got off the bandwagon….when he was careful with the ball, that easily made up for his shortcomings (lack of mobility primarily)….but if he throws picks at a rate of just over one a game, then he loses some luster…regardless of the actual numbers, his ball protection at the outset of the season was easily best in the league, and the Broncos record reflected that (for a lot of reasons, not just that one category)…however, over the latter half of the season, Orton was, you could argue, among the most generous QB’s in the league in terms of turnovers, and the Broncos record reflected that as well (again, there were other factors).

It does seem reasonable to correlate that when Orton came to earth in terms of ball protection, so too did the Broncos….and those of us who want Orton to succeed but still harbor some concerns were given fuel for debate. I have noted on MANY posts on this site that there seem to be two general hot button controversies…..

1) Did McDaniels do a good job?
and
2) Is Orton our QB for the future?

I think it far too early to really discuss question #1, however, I think there is latitude for discussion on point #2…not saying he should be kicked to the curb, but I do think that it is possible to examine how the season unfolded and note that Orton played a role in how the teams play degraded….and I am sure if some idiot like myself can work out these ratios on the back of a cocktail napkin, then a smart guy like McD has these stats already working in his head….and if turnovers are the major faux pas in Bronco-land, then by that measure, Orton fell well short in the latter portion of the season…

What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?

by Hugo Norton on Jan 6, 2010 11:14 AM MST reply actions  

O line

I think that it can be argued that the degredation of the O-line play was a major contributor to the generosity of Orton.

by WABroncoFan on Jan 6, 2010 12:09 PM MST up reply actions  

No doubt there were many factors....

…I still find it odd, though, that while Orton’s finger was in ruins he was actually a better caretaker of the ball….his only INT during the 6-0 run was a hail mary at the end of a half that had zero impact on the game and might as well have been a punt in any other circumstance….regardless of line quality, play calling, running game, all that, the bottom line is that from weeks 7-17, the INT entered the equation whereas before that it was entirely negligible…

What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?

by Hugo Norton on Jan 6, 2010 12:33 PM MST up reply actions  

I would not call you an idiot

but I DO think your “working it out on a napkin” is flawed. As long as the team was winning, it was a lot easier (and more prudent) for Orton to be careful with the ball. Once they were involved in losing games, it became necessary for Orton to take bigger and potentially costlier chances. If Orton had continued to play as protective of the ball when they fell behind as he did when they were ahead, then you would truly be justified in criticizing him.

by warmick on Jan 6, 2010 12:32 PM MST up reply actions  

I am not trying to criticize Orton...

…I am just trying to correlate how poweful an impact that had on our early season success…actually, during the 6-0 start, we were behind in plenty of instances, and Orton (and the rest of the team doing their jobs) brought us back….

I’ll give Orton credit for protecting the ball and keeping us in the games early on….but I cannot let him off the hook for his play in the latter part of the season….whether it was line play or anything else…the bottom line is that Orton threw more picks and that, along with many other things, helped us to close out the season with a whimper….and one of the basic elements of the McDaniels Doctrine seems to be “Thou shalt NOT turn the ball over”….and we did.

What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?

by Hugo Norton on Jan 6, 2010 12:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Warmick..

Would you conclude then that the criticism of Cutler by the folks of MHR is unjustified then?

I’m not trying to start an arguement here but your logic has basically summed up my feelings on Cutler since the trade. He never had the benefit of playing with a good defense and everytime he took the field he knew he had to sling it to make up for a lack of running game or reasonable defense behind him.

by johnnystarr on Jan 6, 2010 4:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Hmm, I must have been wrong then......

Just kiddin’. Obviously it is a matter of degrees. You can neither protect the ball at any cost at all times nor fling it right and left in the hope that something good happens. As one of our leaders pointed out recently (I regret to admit not remembering who it was), Cutler probably does deserve credit for making the offensive line look better than it was last year by getting rid of the ball quickly and thus avoiding sacks. It seems that Cutler was more interested in avoiding blame for busted plays than doing what was in the best interest of the team but perhaps that is unfair. He may just have been so confident/dumb that he was unable to recognize the limited odds of a situation.

My main problem with Cutler, however, (before his stupidity was revealed last spring along with his disregard for Denver and the Denver fans) has always been his lack of leadership. It used to bother me to see him sitting alone on the bench two years ago with an indifferent look on his face so as to say: “There is nothing I can do on defense. I’ll just sit here and wait until called upon again.” When it was revealed he had had severely reduced energy because of the undiagnosed diabetes I thought that was the reason but as it turned out, getting the condition under control did nothing to improve on his lack of leadership.

I wanted to see Cutler running along the sideline yelling to the defense: “Come on guys. Let’s get it done. Get us the ball back,” but he never did do anything beyond what he was “contractually obligate to.” He will have many incredible plays as well as some amazing games but he will never win a championship or even a division title.

by warmick on Jan 6, 2010 8:26 PM MST up reply actions  

Hey Hugo. Thanks for reading, man. Regarding point 2, I would surmise that some of it does indeed have to do with Harris going down and Hamilton just drifting.

But it’s an interesting question, that I shall look into more fully. I think I can as well. I’m doing a full breakdown of every single play this year from a expected points consideration. This should yield something of value.

Warmick’s point is also valid. They were down in a lot of 2nd halves in the last 8 games. This would have causes many more attempts. So, think we need a rate stat instead of an aggregate stat. Let me get back to you on this one, my friend.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Surprised that haven't dog collared him yet, bfree and force fed him some dawg-pound dog bones.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:13 PM MST up reply actions  

thanks for your contribution this season dude

I do hate the stats that don’t lie when the Broncos are on the wrong side. At least the Broncos have already signed two new PUNTERS! McDaniels film study is paying off!

If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretence of taking care of them, they must become happy. - Thomas Jefferson

by Trogdoor on Jan 6, 2010 12:00 PM MST reply actions  

dude: the outdated pop culture genius.

“Theirs goes, ‘Ding ding ding dingy ding-ding.’ Ours goes, ‘Ding ding ding ding dingy ding-ding.’” —V. Ice, 1990

by oxmouth on Jan 6, 2010 12:15 PM MST reply actions  

There's that itty bitty ding, you know. It's totally different.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:12 PM MST up reply actions  

This is the The Master Key of Reflection...

When Coach McDaniel’s goes through what he stated in this 70 minute last press conference of 2009 as “doing a lot of reflection,” this post should be printed out, handed to him with white gloves on a silver platter. Better yet Gold platter… I don’t want any Choakland associations connected.

Pure brilliance.

I am very grateful for your insightful, thought provoking, and entertaining contributions!

Now… I’m off to go rollin’ in my 5.0 with the rag-top down so my hair can blow…

by CraigMorton07 on Jan 6, 2010 12:20 PM MST reply actions  

I hope you light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle...

Thanks for your kinds words. I am extremely appreciative hearing that CM.

I’ll have some more surprises in store that I think will be even more useful.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:12 PM MST up reply actions  

Ouch!

We’ve only won 16 more games in the last FOUR years than the Oakland Raiders?!?!?!?

That is unacceptable. We need to push that up to 25 next year.

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2010 1:33 PM MST reply actions  

I was going to do the Chargers, but I didn't want to cry.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Appreciation for the season

Maybe it’s the stats mentality…your posts seem to be among the most objective and certainly best written. Thank you for a great season of articles T.J.

by BroncoCUbuffs on Jan 6, 2010 1:56 PM MST reply actions  

Thanks, my friend. If you saw me in the game threads, you'd see a crazy idiot. But thanks to

Harv, Jenna, Kentucky Bronco, and others, I have managed to check myself.

But you can’t judge a game thread by it’s cover.

I must also thank Doug Lee, who gives everyone’s posts an edit. He is truly a awesome asset to MHR. And he’s not as bad an apostrophe nazi as he claims.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:07 PM MST up reply actions  

This has been a great series TJ!

The third down conversion failure was an achilles heel all year and more so in the end. I, like you, fully expect this to improve next year. The stats on Orton not making mistakes with the football should give many fans who are critical pause as well.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Jan 6, 2010 4:35 PM MST reply actions  

Thanks Ponderosa for sludging through the stats. I'll continue to try and make it worth your time.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Word to your mother!

Yo if there’s a problem, TJ will solve it! Check out his post while theMile High revolves it!

Good stuff! Part of me wants to dangle you over the balcony, Suge Knight style (for the Vanilla refs). But part of me says, “A1A!”

Well done once again, and very rec’d!

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 6, 2010 5:05 PM MST reply actions  

HT, LOL, I just realized I forgot your name at the end as a person to co-write with. I simply forgot...

…and as evidence for my claim, the fact that we have already done it!

I changed that when I saw it, my friend.

Now, let’s do some locking and popping.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 7:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Like this?

Locking and popping

Sticking with the 80’s theme and all, Dude.

by AllBroncsallday on Jan 6, 2010 8:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Turbo in Breakin' 2, Electric Boogaloo was like Fred Astair......no....really...lol

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh no!

Just don’t try to tell me that “Sho Nuff” was like Bruce Lee too.

LOL

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 7, 2010 1:46 PM MST up reply actions  

lol

There are so many good people at MHR, that someone is always going to miss being listed. No worries.

: )

Formerly known as HoosierTeacher or just HT.

"Greater is an army of sheep led by a lion, than an army of lions led by a sheep" Defoe

by Steve Nichols on Jan 7, 2010 1:45 PM MST up reply actions  

One point on Marshall...

I am a bit surprised how fast we are calling BS on the injury. He really was hurt last year and the Broncos training staff dropped the ball. He may be just fine to play and is truly playing possum or he may actually be hurt….the training staff says he is fine, but they said the same thing last year. My gut tells me he could probably play but it sure seems like not many on this board are even willing to consider that he may have been too injured to play against KC. This is mostly an objective group here but we certainly do seem to have are fair share of biases. It’s as if McD tells the folks here who to point their ire towards and we oblige. I’m just saying it is possible he actually is injured.

by bonaire on Jan 6, 2010 5:06 PM MST reply actions  

Bonaire

I suppose this could be true, but I have to assume:

McDaniels and his medical staff have enough cumulative experience to judge something like this (as Shanny did before him with Marshall) regarding a player who could/could not play. We are not talking about a hip, but a hamstring. As he said, he’s seen many players play with much worse injuries. I guess McDaniels could be a liar, but there would be no evidence to merit such a claim. So I suppose I’m giving the guy that doesn’t have a history of crazy behavior the benefit of the doubt over the guy that does.

Either way:

1) If he’s injured…again…why invest so much time and money when we could leverage him right now for draft picks and line help

2) If he’s not injured, he is playing possum… that would make him a pretty bad “team” guy….let’s leverage for draft pick and line help…

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 8:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Actually there is one more option

It could be that Marshall is really injured and it could be that McD believes he has seen players play with worse injuries…as opposed to lying, he could just be wrong.

As for leveraging for more draft picks, consider that most on this board believe a draft cannot be judged for at least 3 years. So to carry out the logic, if we are trading our best weapons for draft picks then are we willing to call this a rebuilding project for another 3 years? And by the way, I don’t know if I believe our management are the best at drafting. Lets consider that the GM and the head coach have never had the ultimate say in who gets drafted with their previous teams, so who knows if they will get it right?

by bonaire on Jan 6, 2010 9:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Hey B, I cede that point, certainly.

When I was thinking about the leveraging…I was also thinking about draft picks AND existing players, like we got in the Orton deal. This, my friend, would be the best of both. Any ideas on teams that could part ways with and O- or D- Lineman and the draft pick?

Regarding the management. True, I can’t know this just yet either. Smith. Ayers. Moreno. Perhaps we will know next year perhaps. But I do know that the Pats way has tended to be the 2-3 year impact plan.

Good comments, B. I am still one of those guys who thinks we ship him out.

But let’s say your possibility exists. McDaniels is wrong. I suppose I could sit on the fence and say either/ or. But , if I’m being honest, I’m just not sensing that Marshall is on board with this team. After hearing his interview, I’m even more convinced of that. And given his hamstring history with Shanny, I’m just weighing all of this and thinking, hmmm

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 9:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Actually...

I believe Marshall needs to go. I was just offering counter points. As long as we get some players back as well, I can live with it…I just don’t want to enter a major rebuilding stage.

by bonaire on Jan 6, 2010 9:21 PM MST up reply actions  

Actually one more point...

If Marshall really is hurt and then the coach essentially calls you either soft or a quitter, then the coach is every bit as responsible for burning that bridge. I don’t believe McD should take to the public airwaves with those kind of accusations. I don’t see any gain by taking it public, just negatives.

by bonaire on Jan 6, 2010 9:27 PM MST up reply actions  

B, exactly! So why take it public?

Most people assume he made a mistake by taking it public.

But let’s for the sake of discussion say that he took it public for a reason? If you were in his shoes, what would be the reason to take it public?

I know you can put yourself in his shoes, ;-) So what would be the benefit? Why would you do it? I’m being a little rhetorical, but really, let’s consider this. Why?

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 7, 2010 12:36 AM MST up reply actions  

The only thing that makes sense to me

This was brought up before, I forget who(sorry). Going public was a preemptive strike to avoid another Cutler type media situation where the Broncos organization ended up looking like the bad guy.

In some ways it can be like closing a door behind you. Once everybody knows you can’t really change your mind right?

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Don’t worry about it. As an ignorant redneck, I’m qualified to say that

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 7, 2010 3:33 AM MST up reply actions  

This is essentially my perspective....along with getting the media to report he's

on the trading block and bidding up the price.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 7, 2010 10:34 AM MST up reply actions  

Maybe McD has ulterior motives...

or maybe he is just a young coach making young coach mistakes. I really have no idea.

by bonaire on Jan 7, 2010 7:29 AM MST up reply actions  

Bonaire

Well I won’t beat a dead horse (bronco) any longer, but I would suggest to you that Sean is exactly right. Further, he knew that it would already push the suggestion to the other teams that this guy is up on the block, and as such, would begin to draw interest from multiple teams, which it appears to be doing. I’m not saying that it was the perfect way to handle the situation, but I can’t imagine that he was just rolling off the cuff either.

Well, anyway, thanks for the good exchange.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 7, 2010 10:31 AM MST up reply actions  

It's the old "cry wolf" story

Even if he was hurt, he has only himself to blame for not being believed. As far as McDaniels telling the media: There was no ulterior motive. It only hurt Marshall’s trade value that the head coach calls him a quitter but imagine the media frenzy and speculation if he had kept it private that he benched his star player.

I appreciate that he was up front an honest about the situation but if you insist on ulterior motives, how about this: McDaniels wants to keep Marshall for next year and keep him as cheaply as possible. He would then have to make him a restricted player meaning Denver reserves the right to match any offer. By reducing his value, such a matching offer may be considerably lower than would otherwise have been the case. I don’t believe it but it is fun to speculate.

by warmick on Jan 7, 2010 11:10 AM MST up reply actions  

I have considered this

as a valid reason. The problem with this is whether or not Marshall puts any effort into his play. Do you just end up with an expensive bench warmer, or worse yet, a player on the field that is a liability.

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Don’t worry about it. As an ignorant redneck, I’m qualified to say that(shout out to KB for this quote as I stole it from his post :-) )

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 7, 2010 12:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Great points TJ (1 & 2)

Whether or not he was/is injured, Denver is better off without him. For those who don’t think so, it really doesn’t matter because Marshall evidently thinks he is better off without Denver.

PS Looking forward to your field position piece. I certainly would not have thought the point value difference between starting on the 20 and the 26 yard line would be even noteworthy.

by warmick on Jan 7, 2010 10:58 AM MST up reply actions  

You forgot to do your "chance" thing at the end...here is mind:

100% chance Brandon Marshall is happy in 2010, 37% chance he is happy in 2011, and 3% chance he is happy in 2012.

We loved ya Baby T.O., enjoy your long and illustrious career. You beat T.O.‘s record for most receptions in a game, now let’s see if you can conquer his mark for most teams in a career. :P

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Jan 6, 2010 5:20 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Tim, excellent. I am glad you noticed!

I think that is 100% on the money.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 7:45 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for all year of something to look forward to

Good stuff TJ. So many really good writers here.
 I don’t remember who mentioned it but someone said watching film of every game over and over really tells you what the individual players are doing.It was mentioned that when the season ended that a name and shame or who’s got game article was coming.If you’d like an idea that I believe the readers would like, it’s knowing who did well playing their position and who didn’t and what kind of final grade do you think the team assigned each player.
 To me I would very much look forward to reading an article like that more than once and compare it to all of the forthcoming draft articles.
 Just a thought,well I didn’t think of it but one of MHR writers mentioned it a few weeks back. Thanks again

by Broncolorado on Jan 6, 2010 5:20 PM MST reply actions  

Broncolorado

I think that was Emmett that talked about that. For about 7 weeks I was doing a spotlight feature like this. Picked one player and watched every one of their plays. Here, for instance was the one I did on Champ Bailey:

http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/9/19/1037727/the-dude-abides-spotlight-on-champ

Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

The reason I stopped was simply because I started focusing so much on stats, I let it go. But I could bring that back. Or work with Emmett or another on it.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 7:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes TJ that was good,Thanks

You’re right,I believe it was Emmett.He had said watching the film it was evident who was and wasn’t doing their jobs(Coach’s slogan).he said he didn’t want to mention any names yet but it would become obvious by who would be let go at season’s end and towards the end of the year he might do an article on what he saw.
 Many people commented to start naming names now.I didn’t comment but I sure as heck wanted to know who Doc thought was and wasn’t doing their jobs on all the film,that most of us don’t see.
 I guess I see you writers as coaches who actually clue us fans into what transpires in the room when coaches call players out for good and bad plays from the film that doesn’t lie.

Like insider information that everyone wishes they could get

by Broncolorado on Jan 6, 2010 8:23 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks TJ

I for one read your columns top to bottom every week, and always leave fulfilled and amused. I especially appreciate your continued positve outlook, even after a loss. Looking forward to your off season projects.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick

by azdenfan on Jan 6, 2010 7:19 PM MST reply actions  

AZ, I know you want to see the correlations, and they will coming. Appreciate as always

and will continue to try get you to take 30 minutes of your time for these things.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 6, 2010 7:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Very good post, TJ. Rec'd. Lots of work here. Thanks.

I don’t think that we can underestimate the importance of Harris going down. We had won 6 straight. He goes down in game 7. We won 2 more after that – but were competitive in many of those 8 games. After he went down, the weaknesses of the OL were exposed and the rush came up the gut. The running game and especially its ability to convert 1st downs and TD were affected greatly. Orton was hurried and harrassed. Harris made Kuper better – and it goes down the line. It would be an interesting statistic to see what would have happened had he played the entire season. It would not change the outcome but we might have some measureables to see the importance of the OL in all phases of the game – in reference to ST as to field position in punting and FGs. Hope that I haven’t gotten drunk on Kool-Aid here.

I am with you on BM – draft pick and line help. The sooner the better.

by Blackknigh on Jan 7, 2010 12:36 AM MST reply actions  

Hey BK, I was just here and saw this come in. I think you are right.

And there is a way actually. I’m working on a project now that I hope to have done in a couple of weeks that will do just what you are looking for, based on expected points for specific lineman, ie. Harris vs. Polumbus, etc. Keep on the lookout for that.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 7, 2010 12:39 AM MST up reply actions  

One minor request...

I enjoy these articles, even though I am not a stats geek. And they have helped my understanding of the game.

I would request that you make an addition to the team rankings table. You currently list the teams according to how they do in the first column stat, turnovers. It would help me to visualize how we are doing if you would average the standings across the board and add a sixth column. If you average Denver’s standings in the five stats that don’t lie, the Broncos belong in 14th place, not 8th place. That would help us visualize how we are doing in the multipronged effort you are presenting.

You can call it the Dude index.

"People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society." - Vince Lombardi

by broncospriestess on Jan 7, 2010 6:57 PM MST reply actions  

Priestess, consider it done. Great idea! You should have said something in week 8!

That is one hell of an idea. The dude index. Pretty cool.

"But I hate the way our identity has changed..Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that’s the truth." --Brian Urlacher

by TJ Johnson on Jan 9, 2010 9:11 PM MST up reply actions  

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