New York Jets @ Denver Broncos: Grounding the Jets
The Denver Broncos will beat the New York Jets.
I know it seems highly unlikely that this will happen, but it simply comes down to energy. Orange Sunday is a special day in Broncoland and all of the non-starters getting a shot at more playing time should be just what the doctor ordered against the high flying Jets.
The Broncos backs are against a wall and whenever this team is faced with that kind of pressure, they typically play well. They don’t always win, but they play hard. The New York Giants game last year was a win and the Philadelphia Eagles game was a loss, but both times their backs were against the wall and this team brought their best. To lose this game will all but seal this teams fate.
Yes, it will seal their fate to eight and eight. To assume the Broncos hold their own destiny in their hands in the second half of the season by going 5-1 or better within the division is an absurd assumption to make. First, the last time the Broncos did that was in 2005 and they went 13-3 that year. The Raiders and Chiefs are better than they were last year, so it won’t be a walk in the park there and the Chargers always seem to play their best football late in the season.
So, a loss here will put the Broncos in too deep of a hole to recover from. They are just not consistent enough to overcome it. However, a win would put the Broncos in position to head into their Bye week at 5-3, which gives them a tiny breath of room to wiggle heading into the Division Rival home stretch.
The Offense
Once again, the running game needs to continue to progress. Progress… Yes, I guess I can use that word to describe the situation. If you all understand the term is used rather loosely from its more strict meaning. The Broncos need to pound the rock at least once every new set of downs. The Jets secondary is highly touted, but I also think it is overrated. The Jets blitz well and get tons of pressure in the face of opposing quarterbacks, which in turn makes Revis Island look pristine.
If the Broncos offensive line can keep Kyle Orton’s jersey clean, he will undoubtedly shred the Jets secondary, but Orton will need help in the running game. I know I’ve said this three straight weeks, but it is still correct. Orton will not last through the season if he continues on his record setting pace.
One thing is certain, Orton needs to start producing some wins or no amount of stats will protect his backside from the three draft pick spent Tim Tebow in 2011.
The other certainty is, if Kyle Orton doesn't play out of his mind for the sixth straight game, the Broncos have no chance to win this game. I know it may seem to some that I am putting unfair expectations upon him, but if you look at any team in the NFL, winning games comes down to the execution and leadership of the quarterback. The truly elite ones win football games. Orton hasn't yet entered that exclusive club, though the season is still young!
The Defense
Here's the thing about the Broncos defense. It's a team sport and this team has yet to play in sync except against the Seattle Seahawks in Week 2. If you look back on the last three games, you will find the Broncos defense played extremely well for long periods of each game. The problem was, the offense consistently failed to get anything going during those long stretches of good defensive play. Then once the defense began to falter, the offense would suddenly get things going again. Teams are supposed to feed off each other at the same time, but the Broncos appear to feed off each others failures. The offense fails, the defense steps it up...the defense fails, the offense steps it up. How about you guys both step it up and put your collective boot heels on Rex Ryan's throat, eh?
Against the Indianapolis Colts, the defense held the line at 13-10 late into the third quarter, but failure after failure by the offense to execute and the Broncos defense finally got burned on two drives by Peyton Manning. Broncos lose.
Against the Tennessee Titans, the defense struggled in the second and third quarters, but the offense was on a roll. The defense stepped it up in the fourth and the offense finally kept things going. The Broncos come back to win.
Against the Baltimore Ravens, the defense struggled early and dug themselves in a hole, but stepped it up late in the second and through the third quarter, while the offense fails to capitalize and both units get dominated late. Broncos lose.
In the last three games, the only time both units seems to succeed at the same time was in the fourth quarter of the Titans game. When this team is out of sync, they lose. The Jets and LaDainian Tomlinson will prove to be a challenge for this injury-depleted defense, but the infusion of young players might just be they need to overcome a superior foe.
The goal in this game is to stop the run and force Mark Sanchez to beat you. However, he will if the Don "Wink" Martindale-led defense doesn't figure out a way to generate some serious pressure on the young quarterback. I can see the Broncos coming out with a victory in this game, but its going to take a team effort and synchronous play from all three phases. It's time they start feeding off each others successes, rather than each others failures.
From the Archives...
Here we go again. I have two really fun posts for you Broncomaniacs today. The first one went down in the comments with me somehow embarrassing myself. To this day I am not sure where I went wrong with my words, but those guys in there brought that conversation up for MONTHS afterward just to poke fun.
Meanwhile, the second was written by me. The term La La Land came into existence over two years ago and after a few months, in complete homer fashion, Mike Clark and I teamed up to get a Constitution of sorts created. All in good fun of course. I share this because many around here seem to think I'm some pessimistic angry fan. I am not. However, Jay Cutler ruined me and consequently I am far more cautious with my homerism. Trust me when I say, when the Broncos start winning lots of games the term "13-3 baby" will be coming from me everywhere and all the time! Until then, I need some convincing before I start going Homer Simpson in my posts.
The Mayonnaise Jar and Two Beers by firstfan
*Note: Yes, the post is a great one...but the comment section was rather rowdy and worth a look-see.
A Bronco Fans Guide to La La Land by Me
Hope you enjoyed this, Go Broncos!
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I've got a really bad feeling about this Chewie.
But I’ll keep my fingers crossed.
Madden be trippin' on my speed.
Is that a reference to my large amount of chest hair?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I think he was referring to your
unbearable force down below lol
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
But
Han Solo doesnt believe in the force, and he isn’t force sensitive either….
by SoCalBronco1998 on Oct 15, 2010 1:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Agreed
Even though I personally attended the debacle in Baltimore, I am with you on this one, Tim.
Rex Ryan’s teams run on emotion. I do not see how they can get up for this game.
Conversely, I think the Broncos play best when they have low expectations and nothing to lose.
I see it as a trap game and Denver pulling an upset. The Orange 12th man will play a role.
by Baltimore Bronco on Oct 14, 2010 2:21 PM MDT reply actions
The 12th man BETTER play a role GDit!!!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Diagnosing the blitz.
We all know Rex’s method, hit the QB, and through 5 games the Jets have 12 sacks. I think that the key to winning this game is the o-line picking up the blitz (which honestly worries me with our young/inexperienced line!)
Last week, Bret Favre started using a dummy snap count to see where the pressure was coming from…..can anyone else see Orton doing that on Sunday?
"I used to fight the pain, but recently this became clear to me: pain is not my enemy; it is my call to greatness."--Henry Rollins
"Victory belongs to the most persevering." --Napoleon.
The 12th fan
Better make this one so loud, Sanchez cant even hear his helmet radio! Nothing can help a defense more than an excruciatingly loud stadium. It makes the offense play slow and helps the pass rush immensly.
Can we import something to magnify the sound even more than it will be?
"My team's on the floor"
Gene Hackman - Hoosiers
banner
If anyone still has the la la land banner please post it so I can use it for my wallpaper
Had it before but my pc crashed and I lost it.
its undoubtedly in the archives somewhere.....
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Here you go
http://www.davusx.net/assets/db/la_la_land.gif
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I wish I felt like being in La La Land....hopefully I will come Monday!

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Oct 14, 2010 3:11 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
this
would be sweet beyond words…
http://www.centsports.com/ref/698077/Joe_Vick
If you think you know sports, try betting here for free.
I'm up to 3 dollars!
by Whidbey Bronco on Oct 14, 2010 5:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Finally some optimism!
I seriously think Orton can win you this game. I hope I’m not jinxing myself but Orton is a beast he can possibly beat us. It’s your defense that needs to come play. If we establish our running game or passing game it’s pretty much over.. Any team can lose on any given Sunday, keep hope alive!!
"Dedication To The Don" Most Popular Post Of All Time On P&T. I Am Honored
How does losing this game seal our fate as an 8-8 team?
If we lose this game we are 2-4 with our next two games vs. very beatable teams in the raiders and 49ers. We get to 4-4 headed into the bye week, then we have the rest of the division games, which we could go 3-2 in, and then games vs. the Rams, Cards, and Texans, which are all winnable games as well, but say we go 2-1 in those games. That’s a very realistic 9-7 record, and it’s quite possible we could go 10-6 still, even if we lose this game.
You can take the man out of Colorado, but you can't take Colorado out of the man.
by manbearpig5000000 on Oct 14, 2010 3:56 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
I have a feeling the Broncos will end up 4-4 by the Bye week, so we'll get to see who was more realistic.
We go 4-4 into the BYE, we’re lucky we finish 8-8!
Believe me when I say that I hope YOU are right, but I am only making my best judgement based on what I know about this football team.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Optimistic.
Speaking of emotion, I wonder what people would be saying about this game before the Ravens game.
We tend to ride heavy on emotion here in MHR. One week we can beat any team in the NFL, the next week we’re doomed for all eternity (granted, we’re a little more dinged up this go-around).
That said, I truly believe that we have a strong chance at winning this game on Sunday. It has the makings of a trap game, great 12th man Orange Sunday, we have the heart to rally, and Orton is this good.
It's just like the Ravens.
It’s the same team, with the same strengths. Sanchez and flacco are (to use an obscure term that has been tossed around a lot lately) fungible. Rice may be a little better than the Jets RBs, but the jets do have the #1 rushing attack. Their defenses are virtual carbon copies. Unless the Broncos are quick studies and our backups are much better than our starters, this week is going to be a dismal loss.
But the optimist in me says we mow the field with the Dang Green..
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Either way, this game will be put in perspective and ultimately, win or lose, will not mean nearly as much as all of us waking up in the morning, taking a deep breath, appreciating what we have and living our lives for as long as we are given the gift of life." - KentuckyBronco
by HarvJNep2n on Oct 14, 2010 10:39 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
David Bruton
I hope this kid plays lights out and shows us that he is more than just a gunner. He has some ass to him and seems to be super tough. It’s definitely gonna be interesting to see how we cope with some of these injuries.
by PaleHorse78 on Oct 14, 2010 11:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Of course we can win this game
Last year no one seemed to think we would be able to beat New England or Dallas. A couple of years ago half the team was injured and no one thought we could win in Atlanta. I agree that emotion could play a huge role on Sunday.
Checklist for making this a great week:
1. Rescue of Chilean miners. Check.
2. Broncos’ win on Sunday. Still to be determined…
"People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society." - Vince Lombardi
by broncospriestess on Oct 14, 2010 4:09 PM MDT reply actions
3. John Elway getting ripped off millions
Seriously, I think our team is going to take the Dukes loss out on the Jets arse.
by PaleHorse78 on Oct 14, 2010 11:13 PM MDT up reply actions
How do you figure they are a superior foe?
Are they a better team than the Broncos right now, maybe, maybe not. Do they present difficulties absolutely, but really, superior, must be drinking that MSM koolaide on that one. The Jets are certainly a talented team, I’m not buying the superior bit yet. Outside of the second half against NE and the Buffalo game they’ve not shown they are superior. Yes they’ve gotten W’s, but they’ve also shown they have holes to be exploited. It will be a tough game for sure, but, a solid game from the Broncos with fewer mistakes (e.g. penalties) and we can certanly win a toughly fought game.
"I cannot give you a formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: Try to please everybody."
by bchiper on Oct 14, 2010 4:27 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
They've done more than the Broncos have AND they are coming off the AFC Championship game.
I think that is a bit more than drinking MSM koolaid. If I were I’d be claiming Dallas was elite. :P
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I'll agree they've done more,
I still won’t buy superior.
"I cannot give you a formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: Try to please everybody."
The ONLY reason they made the playoffs
is because we couldn’t win. We handed the Jets that playoff slot (I admit they did make the most of it while they were there) with our sloppy play down the stretch. It’s time for our boys in orange to take it back. I didn’t realize that the Jets were way down there in terms of pass D, I think bottom 10. If we can keep “The Neckbearded One” (after watching his press conference over at DB.com, it looks like it’s growin’ back) upright, I believe he and our wideouts can absolutely torch their secondary, Beavis Island or not. Call me crazy, but I think Josh McD and the Denver Broncos respond in a big way on Sunday.
by PaleHorse78 on Oct 14, 2010 11:29 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I read the two posts you included...
And it reminded me we haven’t heard from Steve Nichols or Mike Clark in a while. Is there some story I haven’t heard, or did they just seem to lose interest for the time being?
"People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society." - Vince Lombardi
by broncospriestess on Oct 14, 2010 4:31 PM MDT reply actions
Mike Clark dislikes McDaniels, or so it appears on his recent history.
Steve is buried in work…criminals never take a vacation you know, so the good guys don’t either.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
That's inconsiderate...
You would think that criminals would be more respectful of football season!
"People who work together will win, whether it be against complex football defenses, or the problems of modern society." - Vince Lombardi
by broncospriestess on Oct 15, 2010 7:56 AM MDT up reply actions
They are mostly Raider fans. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Oct 15, 2010 8:49 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's true. When the raiders are winning (try to contain your laughter)
the crime rate is much lower on Sundays.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Either way, this game will be put in perspective and ultimately, win or lose, will not mean nearly as much as all of us waking up in the morning, taking a deep breath, appreciating what we have and living our lives for as long as we are given the gift of life." - KentuckyBronco
Agreed.... but you seriously thought broncosfanstuckinsd was a girl because of the avatar?
C’mon man….. :)
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
Yeah...but I didn't. :P
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Thanks Tim.....all I can say about this weekend is......GO BRONCOS...
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
PUMPED UP!!!!!
I’m am making my third trip from Albuquerque to D-Town for another game!! I am gonna be FIRED up to the extreme!!! We are gonna make this season special starting this week .. SMILE HIGH. Broncomaniacs!!!!!!
GO BRONCOS!!!!
" I definitely want to repay Coach McDaniels for the faith he showed in me,"
Tim Tebow
by milehighhitter505 on Oct 14, 2010 5:05 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
I agree, we will win!
McD gets agressive and we come out in a no-huddle/hurry-up offense for the entire first half. Once the offense sucks the mile high air out of the Jets’ lungs and we build up a 17-3 half time lead, our defense tees off on Sanchez. Special teams return one for a TD as well! Broncos win 27-10! Orton throws for 350 yds and 2 TDs.
Good article…http://www.opposingviews.com/i/could-broncos-kyle-orton-be-the-next-drew-brees
I say yes!
by rocko1 on Oct 14, 2010 5:47 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
A game plan can be the difference
1985…Buddy Ryan and the 85 Bears defense vs Don Shula/Dan Marino and the Dolphins offense. Dolphins did what they did best, throw, throw, and throw it some more. Only loss for the 85 Bears.
We can beat Rex Ryan if we are smart! Suck the mile high air out of those New York polluted lungs. Hurry-up, pass 80% of time, and keep the clock running.
Excellent article dude
I loved what the comment said – get doom back, young o-line gels, nab some young d-linemen in the draft = contender. Agreed.
by PaleHorse78 on Oct 14, 2010 11:38 PM MDT up reply actions
The Broncos
will win and I’d like to applaud John Bena on the MHR Radio Report for mocking “fans” who expect failure haphazardly. What miserable lives such ghouls lead. It’s much more exciting and appropriate to look at the good.
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Oct 14, 2010 6:01 PM MDT reply actions
its alos realistic to realize that this is one TOUGH game...made tougher by bad injuries......and the fact we surrendered badly against the ravens.....recent events dont spell a lay down misere win for our team...I still think they can do it though!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Oh Boydy
I wasn’t talking about YOU. You are one of the most passionate optimists on MHR.
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Oct 14, 2010 8:48 PM MDT up reply actions
@Tim..like it..points for applumb
My view, I want to see some of the draft picks. Bruton may be the next Atwater? Look at what Cox has brought, competitiveness (some errors).I loved getting ILB Lee Robinson back from the Giants. Love to have a "Welcome to Robinson Neighborhood’ following.
Cassius Vaughn just drips with confidence. Lets see him in nickle.
Jones looks better at FS then nickle, find out.
Will they make errors, sure. But they will compete or be evaluated as projects or cuts.
by DLMyers on Oct 14, 2010 6:11 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I like this game
The Jets are so similar to the Ravens that this is somewhat of a second chance, except at home. I look for us to come out PO’ed and have a game similar to the Giants game last year.
Advantage Broncos all the way...
1) Hime field advantage…
2) High altitude. Most of the Jets players haven’t experienced thin air in a uni…
3) We’re wearing Orange whisch is a plus. (Bowlen get you head out of your…)
4) Because like Tim says, it’s time for the subs to step up. I have a feeling Jarvis Moss will play better if he starts.
The Baltimore loss
sets up the win in the playoffs versus them. You learn more from a loss than from a win. The purple people are toast in January.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Either way, this game will be put in perspective and ultimately, win or lose, will not mean nearly as much as all of us waking up in the morning, taking a deep breath, appreciating what we have and living our lives for as long as we are given the gift of life." - KentuckyBronco
tim
great arecie but i disargee let say denver loses sunday yes they are 2-4 but can finesh 7-3 8-2 i will explain in a post
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider
Why we are 2 and 3?
This will explain most of it:
Football Outsiders tells us that in drives against the Broncos
Yards allowed per drive 34.10 (28)
Points allowed per drive: 2.14 (28) .
% of drives ending in TDs: 25.5 (28)
% of drives ending in punts: 43.1 (10)
% of drives ending in TOs: 7.8 (29)
% of drives ending in INTs: 5.9 (25)
% of drives ending in a fumble: 2.0 (30)
average staring field position: 27.53 (7)
% of drives with positive series production: 71.2 (28)
The Denver Defensive Line and rush defense
25th in the league in adjusted line yards ALY: 4.39
9th in short yardage
26th in stuffing runs
17th in allowing second level runs
22nd in allowing long runs
12th in adjusted sack rate
29th in overall defense DVOA, 28th in DVOA pass rank and 30th in DVOA rush rank.
Combine our offense with a good defense/special teams, and we compete for a Super Bowl in 2010. No way this is on Kyle Orton.
by rocko1 on Oct 14, 2010 7:23 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Elite QBs win...all I said was that if he doesn't do more, Tebow will end up getting his chance.
I know you are an Orton guy, but its very simple to understand why what I said above is true. It has happened in every similar situation. Like Rivers over Brees…Brees just wasnt winning enough for the Chargers liking.
It has even happened in reverse roles. #1 pick doesnt win then a savvy, less physically talented vet comes in. Think vince young and the ageless Collins
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
we've gone round and round...I doubt little I say will get through the protective shield around Orton.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Also, allow me to say that I want Orton to start winning.
Everyone has me pegged as an anti-Orton guy. No, I’m an anti-Orton is elite/franchise/give him a 47 year deal! guy. Show me some wins, then we’ll talk. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
We all want to win!
I view you as a Tebowmaniac! Sorry, but that’s the way you come across in your posts.
yeah...I'm not, but thats okay.
Tebow brings out the most emotional response out of people…especially those that despise him on a personal level.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I agree Tim
Orton has upped his game to a level I never thought was achievable for him. Like it or not, we are 2-3. Before we call Orton elite / franchise material (much like Cutler was hailed) we need to see him start – a: winning, b: put up more TD’s, c: continue this play for the next 11 games. It is totally feasable that if we’re 4-10 (doubt it, but possible) we will see Tebow. In my dreams I see McD finding a way to keep both QBs. Even Belichick said that Tebow would revolutionize football in some way. No matter how much you & I love Orton, Tebow brings something different to the table.
by PaleHorse78 on Oct 14, 2010 11:50 PM MDT up reply actions
I have thought about that too...except I thought we might see Tebow if we're sitting at 6-8.
It really is about winning…but stats make people crazy.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
yes, but you have to pay attention to WHY we are winning/losing
You seem to not be watching the games, and only paying attention to the W-L record.
Orton is by far the best player on the team right now, and you’re calling for his head. It is moronic and short-sighted to the extreme, as Tebow’s chances of being better this year are basically nil. No rookie QB in the history of the game has played as well as Orton is this year. So if we want to win, we stick with Orton.
PH78 wants to keep both, and that is completely possible because Tebow’s contract is not inconsistent with that of a backup QB. If Tebow beats Orton out, that will mean he is looking absolutely amazing, and I’m all for it. Orton then will move on to someplace else, because he is proving himself as easily being a top 50% starter in the NFL… if Tebow doesn’t beat out Orton, the TT crowd should shut the hell up, because that doesn’t mean TT is bad (he’s just not as good as Orton), and the team is still in good shape because his salary fits the backup position. Continued whining about TT being on the bench serves no purpose, and denigrates the great play we’re getting from our starting QB.
Yeah, I just dont think coaches see things the same way.
McD said it himself…the only QB stats he cares about is wins and losses, red zone production, and third downs.
I’m trying to look at this from a non fan perspective.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I personally am not calling for Orton's head
that would be extremely foolish. I’m just saying that I need to see a little more before I call Orton elite. Tebow isn’t ready guys and Orton is playing like a man who’s hair is on fire.
You are correct CJ
I have watched the games and I believe if we had any semblance of a running attack, that Orton would look even better (scary thought for opposing teams isn’t it?). Orton is by far, not the problem with this team right now. I do feel however that Tebow was drafted to be the future. Even Bowlen said he wanted a young signal caller for the future.
Nothing I have to do!
He’s top 10 in all QB stats! Kyle is doing it all and national sports media has taken notice.
Maybe Tim is in denial?
Good for him...fantasy freaks are quite happy.
I’ll take some wins before I start throwing out terms like Elite or Franchise.
If Orton is elite, what does that make Elway or Manning? Certainly you don’t consider Orton in the same category as those two, so what do we call Elway or Manning? What tops Elite? I say Orton is a very good QB who needs to do a hell of a lot more before he’s truly elite. Like WIN
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
He's a very good QB!
I hope McD has the ability as HC/GM to put a good team around him.
If he doesn't do more?
Elite QBs win with talent Tim. Imo, KO will bring good things to Denver , if and only if, McD does his job. By that, I mean that McD must build a strong defense, offensive line, running game, and special teams. Right now, the only thing this team has going is its’ QB. Tim Tebow is light years below KO on the NFL QB talent scale. There will be a very long line of teams ready to sign Kyle Orton if Denver decides jersey sales are more important than building a champion.
by rocko1 on Oct 14, 2010 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, like I said...come back next offseason and we'll discuss things then.
We’ve played 5 games and are 2-3…Orton has a lot more to prove before McD throws in the towel with Tebow. But there is no reasoning with you….Orton is incontrovertible in your eyes, so why bother?
It kind of sounds like you are trying to convince yourself more than me. I see it for what it is. 2-3.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Repeat
I hope McD has the ability as HC/GM to build a good team. I agree fully with John Bena on Orton.
I have a stricter sense of the meaning of elite or franchise QB. I embarrassed myself by proclaiming Cutler as such and I won't be duped again.
Again, Orton is a very good quarterback who has yet to win any meaningful game in his five year career. Forgive me if I need a hell of a lot more convincing before I start proclaiming him the second coming of Elway. :)
If very good isn’t good enough for you then that’s that.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I am on board with ya
Tim, and I am sure I will get the carp beat out of me on this too. But this isn’t madden football nor fantasy football, and these players play real games and need to win these games, and factually the QB is the one position on the field that handles the ball the most and has to make the most decisions through out a game to affect the team one way or the other. Is it unfair maybe, but the fact is that teams are judged by wins and loses not by stats, and my feeling is that if those stats meant so much, then regardless of the team around Orton, and honestly he has gotten pretty damn good pass blocking, run support is lacking, but those stats should in my mind equate to wins otherwise they are escentially empty, just lack the other side of the spectrum of not having a running game. And the arguement that the broncos wouldn’t have the 2 wins the have without Orton, well they also have 3 loses with him, so you can’t have one without the other.
by broncos314 on Oct 14, 2010 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kyle Orton
has been playing this way for 5 games. I hope he keeps it up for the rest of his career, but just sayin’. Like Tim, when I think ELITE, I think Manning, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Big Ben (2 Superbowl rings don’t lie), and possibly Rivers (now I have to change my shirt from the puke). Orton is inching his way towards this, but 5 games is way too soon to crown him as elite.
by PaleHorse78 on Oct 14, 2010 11:56 PM MDT up reply actions
This you shouldn't be embarrassed about...
I agree with your old assessment more than your new…
Cutler WAS a elite/franchise QB in Shanny’s system. He was not the reason the team went 7-9… in fact, he was a big part of the reason why we won 7 games rather than 4, which would’ve been much more probable given our uber-crappy 2008 DEF.
There is no inconsistency between saying Orton is a great QB now in McD’s system, and Cutler was a great QB then in Shanny’s system… those aren’t mutually exclusive statements. Nor is saying Cutler also has always had footwork/decision-making problems, which are magnified by the bad oline, etc. he has now in Chicago… or sayying that he threw a hissy fit and walked himself out of town when McD tried to make him fit into a new system and address his flaws… it has ZERO relevance to whether or not Cutler was playing extremely well in 2008.
Context matters, both in evaluating Orton’s current performance, and Cutler’s past/present performance. Attributing all Wins and Losses to QB play is simply wrong, as it takes 53 players all performing for a TEAM to be successful. A QB can impact the margin (I’d guess PM probably means ~4 extra wins for Indy each year compared to a “normal” QB), but even though QB is the most extreme case, it still is less than 50% of the total variation.
Cutler was nowhere near Elite/Franchise in Shanny's system
Elite/Franchise QB’s don’t fold in the redzone or 4th quarter like that. Cutler has seemed better this year when he has played.
Cherry picked stats don't make your point
next thing you’ll tell me he didn’t have enough “swagger” or “mojo” which was the cause of why he was supposedly worse in the 4th/RZ…. its complete BS.
If he was truly bad in the 4th Q/Redzone, I would counter by saying most elite QBs aren’t as good in the 1st 3Q or other 80 yards of the field, so it all evens out. Cutler was great, just by getting us in situations where you remember his RZ/4thQ failures… with our 2008 DEF, most QBs wouldn’t even have gotten that far.
I also don’t remember him being particularly bad in either case…. sure I remember some poor RZ plays/picks and 4Q failures… but I also remember many successes too. Was Cutler really that much worse than other 4500yard, 25 TD QBs? And how much of those failures had more to do with being on a 7th string RB rather than any particular weakness of Cutler? We’ve had tons of posts/discussions this year about the difficulty of executing pass plays in the RZ vs. cover-2 defenses in absense of a credible running threat… wouldn’t that apply in 2008 too?
once again, you have to look at CONTEXT.
Yeah, but if Cutler is or was Elite...what does that make Elway or Manning????????????
That is my problem with the word….it doesn’t accurately describe Cutler or Orton because then what on earth would we call those quarterbacks who are OBVIOUSLY in a far better category then they????
What is better than being called Elite?
Cutler never won, Orton isn’t winning….that’s why I don’t get the Elite crap. I will just let it go….I am still embarrassed by the Elite-ness I proclaimed for Cutler. John Elway was elite. Peyton Manning IS elite. Kyle Orton is good. Jay Cutler might be good. Phillip Rivers is good. Tom Brady is elite. Tim Tebow might be good.
Do you see the difference in opinion I have? I choose my words carefully. I’m not pushing for Orton to be benched or to be traded, I’m just trying to bring some common sense to the discussion…a cautious optimism, but you got to understand that if Orton doesn’t start putting together some wins, McDaniels WILL look to see what he might have in Tebow. It’s a given.
:) I’m saying wins and losses are attributed to QBs more than any other position on the field. That is what coaches care about and when you have a 1st round pick on the bench and you’re sitting at 6-8 with no chance for the playoffs, do you think McD continues to bench his 1st round pick? That’s all I am saying here. If Orton doesn’t start winning, he won’t be doing himself any favors in McD’s eyes. Whether the problem is scheme or personnel doesn’t matter…to McD, Orton isn’t getting the job done in the red zone…running game be damned. That’s just how I think he might view the situation.
Either way, I want this team to start winning….NOW :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
PS I am not cherry picking. :P Hate that phrase.
Any time you bring up stats or context or whatever point you are trying to hammer home, you cherry pick your information. We don’t have time to come at each other with encyclopedia’s…most of it is conjecture and opinion anyway. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
except when I talk about context
I say look at a BROAD set of information…
PH78 says ignore a broad set of data (all 4 quarters, all 100yards) and focus only on small sample size situations (RZ, 4thQ, etc.). I will always argue that narrowing your field of info _in_general_ will give poorer analysis.
The exception is when the noise/variability in a broad data set obscures the analysis, but I think the number of cases where a QB “randomnly” throws for 4500 yards and 20+ TDs while only playing “average” is probably kinda rare…. Cutler’s adavanced stats (DVOA, 1st downs, etc.) were equally good to his raw numbers, so its not like he was piling up a bunch of 8 yard throws on 3rd & 10, etc.
I’m not saying ignore the poor plays… I’m just saying don’t ignore the good ones.
Yes, but we are going by what Josh McDaniels himself stated...
paraphrasing after the Colts game, “The only QB stats I care about are wins/loss, red zone, and 3rd downs”
That isn’t cherry picking so much as going by what came from the horses mouth.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
If McD benches a 4500+ yard QB
because the rest of the team sucks and it limits the QB to a small sample size of bad stats… then Bowlen should kick his ass to the curb IMMEDIATELY.
McD says he doesn’t look at other stats… but 2 things are likely true: 1) He does look at film and performance outside those sistuations, and Orton is excelling there whether you want to look at stats or not; and 2) “coach speak” is notorious for studpidity and illogical arguments… very rarely do they actually base their decisions on what they actually say.
I’m disappointed in McD if he actually said that, because generally he doesn’t get into such drivel like talking about “swagger”, etc… but even if he did say that, it doesn’t mean we should follow that poor logic in our analysis.
In which case if the only difference...
… between “good” and “elite” is W-L record, then its a meaningless distinction, because the factors influencing W-L records go WAY beyond anything in particular to the QB.
Elite QB's
also don’t pout on the sideline when adversity strikes. Not trying to be an ass CJ, but call it as I see it.
This...
… is the first valid point you’ve made.
If one of your criteria for being “elite” is showing leadership under adversity, than it is very reasonable to say Cutler didn’t display that performance. But you never said that until now, and instead were relying completely on cherry picked negative samples, and stats not attributable solely to the QB (W-L record).
So since Orton seems to display the new characteristic, would you say he is playing at an “elite” level? (I agree he’s not categorically “elite” until he does it for at least a full season)
Basically, I’m asking for a little analytical rigor. Saying you “call it as you see it”, without objective criteria, is basically saying that you don’t care about facts, because your opinion is obviously better than any logical framework (or other peoples opinions). Its no better than the BS of saying a player doesn’t have enough “swagger” or “mojo”. It is “truthiness” at its worst.
The games we lost were closer than on paper...
We went into the 4th quarter against Baltimore 7-17.
We played really well against the Colts except for the few glaring red zone problems.
I see some of the Bronco’s issues’ as “glitches”. Not clicking on all cylinders. A chemistry that hasn’t gelled yet.
A “team” may or may not develop this year, but Sunday’s game against the Jets would be a nice time for the real Denver Broncos to please stand up.
Good point
Maybe this team isn’t as bad as we think. I was really bummed out this week but after thinking about it, we lost a game to perhaps the best team in football right now.
We will win if we play disciplined, patient football.
We will not win if we have 10 penalties. I believe we could have won the game last week if we had been penalty free.
I know that the officiating seemed very lopsided, but it is what it is. You can’t kill strong drives by shooting yourself in the foot. It lowers morale, and wears out the defense late in the game.
Between playing mistake free football, and the 12th man at home, we have a very good chance to pull the “upset” this weekend! It may be a shootout, due to the injuries on D, but we can win this game!
Officially on record with a 10-6 prediction for 2010! (8/21/10)
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
This isnt about Orton its about our crappy defense
If our defense could stop anything we would be a playoff team but they cant so we wont
GO BRONCOS Orange Crush 4ever
by Taylor K on Oct 15, 2010 9:31 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Yep, bench Orton!
Its his fault our defense is terribly inefficient, our LBs and DBs can’t stay healthy, our ST gives up short fields, and our oline sucks balls!
He’s a mediocre quarterback until he wins some games! An untested rookie with mechanical issues has to be better than this!
rabble, rabble, rabble, rabble!
What a bunch of crap.
lol
Can’t have much discussion with irrational people. :)
But yes, I am calling for benching Orton…that is the exact message I am going for. Sheesh.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I realize that is not what you are saying exactly...
but continuing to speculate on TT and talking about how Orton is not “elite” gives this impression. You create controversy where there should be none, and are seemingly ignorant to the much bigger issues this team faces. Why you or anyone is talking about QB switching at this point BAFFLES me.
If anything, we should all be getting out our torches and pitchforks to go after the other 49 guys that aren’t getting it done… The narrative should be talking about how much the rest of the team is letting Orton down and holding the team back, yet you keep insisting on how Orton hasn’t proved anything until he “wins games”. Frankly, Prater, Orton and the WRs are the only ones I can really say are making the plays we need to win, and the rest of the team is holding them back.
Wouldn't it be awesome CJ
If we could find a way, not only to keep both QB’s, but to play them. Let Orton drive the team down the field, then bring out Peyton Hillis Jr. who can throw the ball in the redzone. I think it could work.
I'm just trying to see it from Josh McDaniels perspective...
its a win now league and he has a 1st round pick on the bench and Orton’s racking up stats but not a lot of wins. That’s all.
My main point was that if Orton doesn’t start winning he won’t be doing himself any favors come 2011…that’s all. :)
I did not create the controversy…people calling for a 6 year extension, franchise QB, elite, etc etc is what caused the controversy. I mean come on… lol That’s the kind of stuff we’d consider after a full season to reflect on, not 5 games in.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Wow...we should have benched Cutler then....I dont think McD sees it this way at all...I think he is counting his lucky stars he has Orton and the team is not 0-5...which it would be if we were starting Tebow...and I love Tebow!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
No, we traded Cutler because McD talked about every position being open to competition. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Thanks Tim....I am hoping we ground those jets my friend!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
me too...and i do not want Tebow playing at all in 2010. just to be clear on that. :)
Orton has a full year under the system, so he should be lightyears ahead of a first year rook
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I know that....all cool man...Tebow will be good. Orton is...we have the QB spot covered...just need a run game and pass rush now!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
truer words were never spoken
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
+1000.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Have you guys ever seen a QB with guns as big as Tebows.
I was thinking that his arm size might even hamper his throwing motion. It is cool to have a QB that is 250 and mean nonetheless.
I'd like to see him with a playbook in front of his face 24-7 until next year.
See where he’s at then and evaluate what’s best for the team then. I am a big fan of Tebow sitting at least one year before becoming a starter…if Orton starts winning and gets in the playoffs, then sit him for another year and see how things play out with Orton.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

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