Diagnosing the Problem: A Turnover is Bad.
by Tim Lynch on Oct 26, 2010 8:04 AM MDT
in Diagnosing the Problem
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PrintDuh, you say?
Well, it's been a four year problem this franchise has been unable to figure out. Costly turnovers, costing games. Sure a big part of the blame rests on the shoulders of the coaching staff, but this problem has now nagged two different regimes in Denver. And I think I may have figured out where the problem is coming from.
A turnover is bad because the Denver Broncos are not generating any and are coughing them up at an alarming rate. A young, undisciplined offense cannot be expected to play mistake-free football. We would like them too and part of that, again, falls on coaching, but in reality the problem is complimentary football.
The defense is reactionary in a sport that success is usually determined by action. Reaction should be left for the coaches during their game adjustments, it should not be played on the field itself. It is time for this defense to forget about bending and take the risk. The defense is playing safe, scared even. That part has been an issue with this defense since 2007. I will only be discussing the Josh McDaniels tenure, but I assure you, the stats I will be playing with were not much different than during Mike Shanahan's final two seasons.
I like charts, so let's play with one here and I'll address it afterwards.
| 2009 | ||||
| Week | Team | Score | T/O Diff. | W/L |
| 1 | @CIN | 12-7 | +2 | W |
| 2 | CLE | 27-6 | +2 | W |
| 3 | @OAK | 23-3 | +2 | W |
| 4 | DAL | 17-10 | +1 | W |
| 5 | NE | 23-20 | -1 | W |
| 6 | @SD | 34-23 | +1 | W |
| 8 | @BAL | 7-30 | -1 | L |
| 9 | PIT | 10-28 | -1 | L |
| 10 | @WAS | 17-27 | -2 | L |
| 11 | SD | 3-32 | -3 | L |
| 12 | NYG | 26-6 | +2 | W |
| 13 | @KC | 44-13 | 0 | W |
| 14 | @IND | 16-28 | +2 | L |
| 15 | OAK | 19-20 | +2 | L |
| 16 | @PHI | 27-30 | +2 | L |
| 17 | KC | 24-44 | -1 | L |
| 2010 | ||||
| Week | Team | Score | T/O Diff. | W/L |
| 1 | @JAX | 17-24 | -2 | L |
| 2 | SEA | 31-14 | +4 | W |
| 3 | IND | 13-27 | -2 | L |
| 4 | @TEN | 26-20 | +1 | W |
| 5 | @BAL | 17-31 | -1 | L |
| 6 | NYJ | 20-24 | +1 | L |
| 7 | OAK | 14-59 | -3 | L |
Here is how I interpreted this information. First, the Broncos, when they win the turnover battle, are not putting teams away. An 8-4 record, with many of those losses coming with a +2 turnover difference is unacceptable. I understand this a young offense, but it must figure out how to capitalize on mistakes made by the other team. However, all too often the offense fails to take advantage of opportunities provided to them by their defense.
Second, the Broncos, when they lose the turnover battle, are just 1-9. This again falls on the offense's inability to overcome mistakes with the football and the defenses seemingly nonexistent ability to generate turnovers. So okay, we see that most of the fault lies mostly with the offense right? Wrong. At least partly, maybe even mostly. I blame the conservative defensive playcalling.
I have watched, mostly painfully, since the day Al Wilson's career ended, this defense play not to lose only to lose. It appears that the defensive backs are being taught to cover the wide receivers and to never, ever look for the ball. It appears that to trust ones instincts is to be against the coach's will. It appears this team simply has no pride.
Oakland defensive tackle Tommy Kelly said Sunday, after the Raiders' 59-14 pounding of the Broncos in Denver, he believed the Broncos would quit if the Raiders could grab a 21-0 lead in the first quarter.
via Denver Post
More insult to our injuries. The opposing teams know our team is full of quitters. I have tried to identify where this culture came from or when it started and I cannot. All I know is that it did not exist when Al Wilson and Jake Plummer were leading this team and it has existed since they have not been on this team. Mike Shanahan failed to figure it out and was fired; so far Josh McDaniels has failed to figure it out and he might be fired.
The only answer this year is to endure. It is up to the coaches and players to dig deep for the pride that has not really shown itself so far. When the pressure is on, this team invariably crumbles. They should come out and win big against San Francisco this week, but if we are to use last season as a benchmark, we are due for at least one more loss before this team wakes up. Then they'll likely go back into hibernation in another few weeks.
My suggestion to Wink Martindale is to change how he is coaching his defensive backfield. Take the risks. This team needs turnovers and playing defense the way this team is currently playing defense is not going to get the job done. Take the occasional big play, for they are happening anyway, and go for the turnover!
Long term, this team needs to finally address the biggest hole on this team. A hole that has now existed for four and a half years. This team needs to replace Al Wilson with a player worthy of his replacement. Whether it be in the draft or in free agency, Josh McDaniels and Brian Xanders must find an ILB of the Randy Gradishar/Al Wilson mold. I know D.J. Williams is great, but so was Tom Jackson. I know Elvis Dumervil is great, but so was Simon Fletcher and Karl Mecklenberg.
As for the offense, they just need time. They need experience together and the only cure for that is time. I won't address the quarterback situation. Kyle Orton should continue to be the starter this year, but the reigns to this team will most certainly be given to Tim Tebow in 2011. Only a major winning streak and the huge turnaround that comes with it will change that outcome.
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Yep...well, I said this in another thread...
Kyle Orton does not get it done under pressure. 3 and outs in the worst possible times….mistakes from him and others…..when was the last time KO and our offense made a CLUTCH play to win a game or stay in a game….pretty much NEVER.
And, this is the team design: The defense sucks, its on the offense to win, and they never perform in clutch times eg run game in short yardage.
We need to wake up and realize this TEAM DESIGN sucks, we DONT have playmakers in the most important positions eg QB, RB, OLB/PASS RUSHER, BALL HAWK CB and EXPLOSiVE KR. We have NO play makers, and the ones we do have, are played questionably eg Thomas as a KR…any chance we use him vertically in the pass attack.
A very badly designed team, that even at its best, are rubbish.
Sorry, I am thru being optimistic…..it went on the weekend with the belief we had a team full of tough, competitive players.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
The last two games
it seemed to me that Orton, at least, was trying to make something happen, but his receivers weren’t getting open. It’s hard to move the chains when runners don’t have holes to run through and receivers don’t get separation. What’s Orton supposed to do, throw the ball to himself? Everytime I see a pass I see a blanketed receiver, even when the pass is completed. If the line blocks better and the receivers run better routes Orton will look like an all-pro and McDaniels will suddenly be a brilliant play caller.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Oct 26, 2010 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Spock, not just the last 2 games...
And half the reason is just dumb luck. the list Tim gives us brings back memories of winning the turn over battle BUT not converting plays: The Colts this and last year for example. The debacle against the Raiders last year when we had plenty of chances and could not convert. This is not a 2 game anomaly…..this is a pattern.
Its not all Orton…but he needs to shoulder a fair burden of the blame.
I want nothing more than for him to succeed…but he just does not get it done when we need him to.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Yep...we are REALLY easy to game plan against unfortunately!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
the game is about adjustments
last year, in the 2nd half we didn’t make any that worked. Looks like the same thing is starting to happen. McD hopefulloy will come up with a solution for this. This is his area of expertise.
plan against
Hate to beat a dead horse. But as you said before a lot of what makes it easy for other teams to game plan against us is the fact that we have no BIG play makers on offense.
Just as you said at the beginning of this thread. So in other words; I agree with your post…McD’s trick plays may not cut it. It might, IF we had some play makers. But it seems McD has/had personality conflicts with every real play maker we had in Denver. Some would argue that Royal, Lloyd, Doom, and maybe Moreno are playmakers. But the way the are used has been predictable and to careful IMO.
I'm so optimistic I'd go after Moby Dick in a row boat and take the tartar sauce with me.~Zig Ziglar
by timmaybronco on Oct 27, 2010 12:34 AM MDT up reply actions
good find
which goes back to Boydy’s point about going vertical with Thomas. If the defense is going to press our receivers, then lets take some shots down the field!!
You can take the man out of Colorado, but you can't take Colorado out of the man.
by manbearpig5000000 on Oct 26, 2010 7:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Well Done
Nice job, Tim.
I agree. I think if DW had not been murdered and Al Wilson had not been injured, things might have been very different for the Denver Broncos.
Just look at what Ray Lewis has meant to the Ravens.
by Baltimore Bronco on Oct 26, 2010 8:21 AM MDT reply actions
Thanks!
And its high time the organization addresses this with more than just lip service.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Oct 26, 2010 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
AMEN
I'm so optimistic I'd go after Moby Dick in a row boat and take the tartar sauce with me.~Zig Ziglar
by timmaybronco on Oct 27, 2010 12:36 AM MDT up reply actions
OMG
Just came back from doing something else, without my glasses, and I thought that was this week’s injury chart! It seemed only too likely.
Ball Hawk CB
Not to open old wounds, but watching Alphonso Smith play at Wake Forest, that’s exactly what he is. 3 INT’s in Detroit so far suggest that the skill was not lost in his transition to the pros.
Dont stress it...we got Nate Jones!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
lol
You can take the man out of Colorado, but you can't take Colorado out of the man.
by manbearpig5000000 on Oct 26, 2010 7:14 PM MDT up reply actions
and...
we got rid of him because he didn’t “buy into the system” and wanted to “freelance”. When maybe that’s what we’ve needed.
That is what I'm calling for...
Champ is not getting INT because he is being told to just “do his job” of covering the WR. He never takes chances anymore. He covers his guy, thats it. He was grabbing all of those INTs a few years ago because the defense was actionary instead of reactionary.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I agree on Champ...
An Alphonso Smith had 2 balls land in his hands. Had nothing to do with Ball Hawking. he also gave up plenty of plays against the WRs he was covering in all of those games.
D Coordinators?
1. It seems like changing the defensive coordinator every year can’t help matters. Why that’s been the pattern across 2 coaching staffs is hard to figure.
The lack of continuity over such a long stretch seem like a major problem in trying to get a defense beyond the stage of trying not to screw up while they learn the new defense. I can’t speak from any experience, but it seems natural to think that experience with a stable system would let players know when and where to take a risk that could create a turnover.
2.
I won’t address the quarterback situation. Kyle Orton should continue to be the starter this year, but the reigns to this team will most certainly be given to Tim Tebow in 2011.
That almost seems like addressing the quarterback situation … :)
Champ Bailey
Can intercept a few, I hear…….
Its the scheme. When we have to sell out to stop the run, the DB’s have to play cover (no help). If the front 4 could be a bit stouter, the LB and DB could scheme differently. This isn’t a Phillips type of attacking 3-4; it is the Patriot cover 3-4. When we have the bodies for that, that is. Now its more of a 4-3 without a lot of pressure, and the silly, no hands down at the snap 2-whatever look. We lack the horses on defense; we have to play safe.
A team full of quitters?
Interesting, since by my count, the only remaining players from the Shanahan era are as follows:
Graham
Harris
Kuper
Clady
Royal
Bailey
DJ Williams
Dumervil
J. Moss
Haggen
M. Thomas
I am not sure who amoung those players are quitters (J. Moss is a quitter though, since he quit the team last year in training camp), but basically our new coaching staff has replaced 42 players from two years ago with quitters.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
by Broncoman on Oct 26, 2010 9:01 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Nice job of writing Tim!
Here’s a good summary of the situation in Denver imo:
http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/denver-broncos-mess-shows-experience-counts-102510
An interesting article
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
The video highlights in that link infuriated me
That was a very good explanation of the dangers that come with relying on the passing attack. I made the mistake of clicking on the video of the Saints/Browns game highlights that they used to illustrate the point. I’m sorry, and I know it’s off topic, but I’m so pissed now I can’t help myself. How the HELL can we justify Trading Hillis for a 6’th round pick, and a third string QB? Then we turn around and piss away a fourth round pick to get a injury prone has been like Maroney? WTF? Is there ANY accountability in this organization? What is happening to my team? I’m so angry now.
ouch
Thats a tough article. Hard to disagree with it though.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
quitters
Seems to me that anyone who played or coached on last Sunday can be called a quitter. Except Knowshon, he had enough fight in him to still be able to celebrate touchdowns.
by nedanderthal on Oct 26, 2010 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions
That was the most disgusting part of this debacle. We are down 31 points and he wants to celebrate. I thought we were trying to get away from this “look at me” mentality and insill a team attitude. A team player would have gone back to the sideline and encouraged the D to get the ball back. That type of behaviour is disgusting.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
No, he was trying to motivate his teammates. If you noticed, he was still running hard in the 2nd half, after most of his team was already in the showers mentally. Give me a guy like that in battle any day.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
I see both sides of the coin.
I’m leaning towards motivating his teammates.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Oct 26, 2010 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
That wasn't it firstfan
He was trying to create a spark…nothing he did was over the top from where I was watching. The kid has heart and the rest of the team could friggin learn something from him.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
It looked terrible to me
When your arch-rival has broken into your house, kicked your mom in the face, had his way with your wife, and is busily ass raping you, you don’t celebrate like you have won the Super Bowl just for scoring a TD. What a real man does is act like he’s been there before. Give the ball to the official, and be a professional. When I saw him celebrating like that, when we were down 38-7, it made me want to PUKE.
I still don't think your descriptional analogy does it justice... dig down deep, I know you can think of worse lol
You can take the man out of Colorado, but you can't take Colorado out of the man.
by manbearpig5000000 on Oct 26, 2010 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions
I didn't see the game
But I would have to tend agree with first fan, celebrating a touchdown when you are getting your head kicked in is pretty worthless.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I wish I could say that; "I didn't see the game"..
Luck you..
I'm so optimistic I'd go after Moby Dick in a row boat and take the tartar sauce with me.~Zig Ziglar
by timmaybronco on Oct 27, 2010 12:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I actually do wish we had Scheffler, but......
that still made me laugh. :)
I'm taking the words for a Raider player there...THEY see this team as full of quitters.
That’s saying something more than just some random fan like me saying they are quitters.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Tommy Kelly would know...
since anyone who played with jamarcus knows a quitter when he sees one.
by nedanderthal on Oct 26, 2010 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I know, just saying that these guys (for the most part) are McDaniels guys
So their quitting style to me is a reflection on McDaniels ability to motivate or get something out of them. My guess (and this is based on some rumors), but apparently after the Jets game McDaniels called out the team and the team was not too happy with it, with a perfromance like this, to me this is a clear indication that the team has quit listening to their coaches and are tired of having this HS football style mentallity thrown down their throats.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Shanny's team was quitting too.
This issue transcends head coaching right now.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Can't wait until sunday
we are really beating this dead horse. Not much more to talk about kinda feels like we are living the movie " Groundhod Day ".
It will be a great day when we are not ripping on the obvious and when we can put together 2 or 3 wins.
It will be nice when we are taken a bit serious again…. Until then we have nothing to talk about.
Maybe we can talk about the field condition and how that affects our play.
How being at mile high used to be a huge edge for us but now it is like the other team should be the home team.
I agree with everything on this post especially the NO PRIDE statement.
I really hope the huge chip in my class doesn’t alter my “glass is half full” attitude.
We better win this next game or the team may be walking back home and that will be really interesting….I am out till sunday
The pride thing will display itself this week in London.
A loss there would prove this team has very little pride in itself.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
My guess is we will lay another giant turd.
I hope I am wrong.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Privately I have expressed the same concern.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I would say our issue is probably the turnover of players and coaching staff
The problem I see is that before Shanahan was fired, I understood what he was doing, he was rebuilding the offense, he had his QB, he had a stud LT, he had his TE, he had some young dynamic WR’s, talent at the RB position (Hillis and Torain) and he was starting to address the defense with some talent (M. Thomas, Dumervil, DJ Williams). But he was building a team that could grow and become better over time. He would never admit to it being a rebuilding process, but that is what it was. He was replacing a veteren team of 2005 with a young group that could play together for years and get better every year as they began to trust one another and understand the strengths and weaknesses.
I think McDaniels problem has been rather than trying to work with and develop that core group and add on to it, he looked to blow it up because the players either didn’t fit what he wanted to do or he couldn’t get along with the players, so now he has had to do stop gap measures in signing older vets with the hope they can be of service while the core team is developed, the problem is that he basically has started over essentially and has to develop a team again. The problem is that while we have gotten some decent talent in the skill positions (DB’s/WR), I don’t see that main core. Maybe it is Tebow, Moreno, Clady, Cox, D. Thomas, and Dumervil, but we still are lacking alot of pieces and these guys still have a lot of growing together to do.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
He really did criminal damage to the o-line...
McD made one of the biggest coaching blunders since invading Russia in the winter when he blew up the o-line. The broncos had a system and players to fit the system. The system had not only worked for years in Denver for both the run and pass, but the coaching behind the system had proven itself effective for over a decade on various teams before it made its way to the broncos. McD blew all that up because it was not his system and foolishly thought retooling the line with guys who would fit his system would be easy. Well, it has not proven easy. It fact it has proven near impossible. Adding insult to injury, McD does not seem to have a feel for the o-line, how it gets into a rhythm in a game and how to sustain that rhythm.
Just look at the game attitude of our o-line since McD has become the coach. Do they really look like they are fired up to break the huddle? I am not talking about childish notions of “rah-rah”. I am talking about men about to go to work. During the shany era and when we had certain line coaches the o-line looked like they were in the flow most games, now not so much.
by Keyworthpunch on Oct 26, 2010 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would agree with that
You would think that after 10 plus years of having one of the best offensive lines and offensive line systems in the league he would just look to make that part of his offense, he had Dennison and Turner here, so I am not sure why he felt the need to blow the system up.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Maybe he blew up the system but he didn’t blow up the line.
Hamilton and Wegman were old and though still in the league are on their way out.
The three young OL are still here though Harris may be gone, but I think that is injury more than anything.
I think Shanny was even blowing up his own system and going to a more pass first system.
Anyway, the old OL system is not part of McD’s offense and he has every right to implement his system and should get 3 years to do so. Since it works in NE, it must be an effective system—whether McD can get the players and coach/teach them to do it is another story.
The days of the 1K yard no-name rusher, the 10 win seasons and playoff loss to the Colts are over. For better or worse. Time to move on!
agree to some extent
McD does have every right to implement his system. The point is the system he brought in doesnt seem to be working. Its more then concidence that Wiegmann has his worst year last year yet he is excelling again this year for one of the best running teams in football. Even the dude in Seattle (via Detriot) is starting right now. Clady also seems to be regressing the last two years. He was much more dominant under Shannys watch.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Aren’t the Chiefs running a similar system as us? Weiss is the OC. Chiefs/Pats/Broncos run similar offenses (supposedly). I think the system is legit and naturally if you have a QB like Brady it will look better.
The players selected and their ability to execute the system may be a problem.
But don’t pine for the Shanny days. Those are gone and won’t come back.
I wouldn’t use Clady as evidence of regression due to his injury. Harris (if he’s healthy) is a better example.
The sad fact is
that I do pine for the Shanahan days. Sure, we were a thoroughly mediocre team at the end of his era, but sadly (and it makes want to vomit saying this) I would prefer mediocrity to being the bottom feeder laughing stock team that we are now.
I'd disagree...
you look at the numbers and the rushing attack was on a steady decline in the run up to Shanny getting fired.
The problem there is TIME TOGETHER. The oline has finally played all the same guys at the same position for the second straight week…that’s like Week 2 of training camp for them. Yikes!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
These men are highly compensated professionals
and have had plenty of time together.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Yeah, except for the two rookies.
Time together will build cohesion. It’s a chemistry thing I think.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Might just be me
But I will take Tebow, Thomas, Moreno for the long term over Cutler, Marshall, and Hillis. We are NOT that far away from being a top team. We need a revamp on the Oline, weather in scheme or personnel, that needs to change. We need some youth to grow up a bit and mature (Cox, Squid, Beadles, Walton) and we need to get healthy (Dumervile, Ayers, ect). Yeah this year is frustrating, but we have shown that we can at least RUN with the big dogs. We are not far from beating the big dogs either.
And yes, losing 59-14 sucks big floppy donkey D, but look at Tennessee last year. Lost 59-0 and rallied off what? 8 Straight? It’s not a franchise killer. Here is hoping we respond like they did.
by Jordo5150 on Oct 26, 2010 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
What do you have against Hillis?
But I guess my issue is that I understand the hate against Cutler and BM, at least they have shown they can play and be effective in this league. Thomas looks like he has a bright future, but he is still a couple of years away from being a pro-bowl player, Tebow hasn’t proved anything (good or bad) other than he can run the football better than our RB’s, and Moreno is average at best, maybe it’s this offense, but I guy drafted in the 1st round who still can’t break the century mark in a game and struggles to get a 3.5 ypc average is not what I would call a good core guy.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
no hate...he just thinks Moreno is better than Hillis.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
personally, I wish we had both Moreno and hillis right now.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Hillis can’t pass block.
He doesn’t run as well out of a 1 back set (needs full back)
So to keep Hillis you need to change your offense a lot because we use a lot of 1 back sets and we want to threaten run and pass out of them.
AS much as I like Hillis
Cleveland does have one of the best Oline’s in the league. To his credit he beat out the incumbent and forced management to trade last years starter. That is a player making the most of his opportunities.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
hopefully that will happen..
but I think that kind of turnaround is as likely as Mc59-14’s mustache looking as grand as fisher’s.
by nedanderthal on Oct 26, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Good grief man
What are you thinking Jordo?
We are NOT that far away from being a top team.
The score was 59-14 against a very average team with a 2-4 record.
We are a very long way from bveing a top team.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on Oct 26, 2010 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hey, stop spiking the mans koolaid! We all have a right to look on the bright side.
I think this team is still two years away, more if McD gets fired. Starting over is very bad. We are 1.5 years in…keep plugging away is what we all need to do.
At least its not 1967 bad!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Oct 26, 2010 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
OK
I don’t want to pee in anybody’s cool aid.
But in my opinion this is way worse than any year in the sixties. We might have had a loosing record but we didn’t just give up and roll over. The raiders beat us something like 14 gamers in a row, buty every time they took the bus to Stapleton to get on the prop plane to ride back to oakland (coach class) they knoew they had been in a football game. They were bruised and bloody and limped a lot. These raiders didn’t even break a sweat. They laughed at us. I am still upset.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Yeah, I can't argue that.
You just made me sick again. This team has no pride…maybe this is the game that sparks the inner pride, but the 41-3 drubbing against SD a few years ago didn’t, nor did the 32-3 drubbing at home to SD last year.
It’s organizational though…spanning two head coaches. WTF?!!?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
btw, it was 20 games in a row
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I agree firstfan
It’s one thing to be a devoted Bronco fan. Heck, we’re all Bronco fans here; however, sometimes I’m astonished to to see the dream world in which some fans live. I guess it’s a testament to the human capacity to forgo unpleasant realities in order to live in a less painful delusion. It’s understandable I guess, but it’s certainly not healthy.
Thanks Broncomarc
It is hard to admit, but we just don’t have a very good team.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
Fluke game..
Dude, that was a fluke game..It happens. Any givin Sunday. That is why we watch the game right? Because we lost 59-14 does not mean we don’t have the makings of a great team.
I'm so optimistic I'd go after Moby Dick in a row boat and take the tartar sauce with me.~Zig Ziglar
by timmaybronco on Oct 27, 2010 1:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Really!?!?
You have a good argument about Cutler. His numbers have been bad, and while much of that is a result of having bad receivers, no running game, and some warmed over piles of crap for an offensive line, much of that is on him. (As a side note, I have to admit I derive a great deal of pleasure watching him get the living snot knocked out of him every Sunday) However, the sad fact is that he is winning more than Orton. Make of that what you will.
Thomas over Marshall? Really? I hope and Pray that Thomas turns into a premiere NFL receiver, but outside of the world of Bronco fandom I can assure you that NO ONE in their right mind would take Thomas over Mashall. Marshall is an established top of the line receiver; Thomas is an utterly unproven rookie who has serious trouble hanging on to the ball and a history of injury trouble. Can Thomas be great? I don’t know. Maybe. I hope so. But I can assure you that NO neutral observer would EVER take Thomas over Marshall at this point.
Moreno over Hillis. Really? Really?!?! First of all, it’s important to keep in mind that it wasn’t a choice of one or the other. We could easily have had both. It’s not like Hillis was eating into the salary cap. Instead this coach decided to trade Hillis for a sixth round pick and a third string QB. Later, he pisses away a fourth round pick to get an injury prone has been by the name of Maroney. This move was utterly inexcusable. What would you rather have? The Moreno/Hillis combo, or the Moreno/Maroney combo we now have? If I did have to choose one, I would chose Hillis. One needs only look at the highlights of Hillis’ play this year. He runs with a power that Moreno just doesn’t have. He has great hands and is more of a threat out of the back field. He is quickly developing a reputation for delivering bone shattering blocks. Then there there are the numbers. I would encourage anyone who is interested to compare the rushing, receiving, yards per run and catch, and touchdowns of the two backs. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Finally, there is a question of attitude. I’m sorry, but when Moreno scored a TD last Sunday to make the score 38 to 7, he celebrated like he had just scored the winning touchdown of the Superbowl. That made me want to PUKE. It was disgusting. I can promise you that Hillis would never ever do that.
One last thing. When the Hillis trade with Cleveland went down, I was critical of it. When I posted my concerns about the trade the legion of devoted Josh McDaniels followers here at MHR tore into me. I was called everything from an idiot, to a hater, to not a real Bronco fan, and even worse. I think it’s safe to say now that my concerns were justified. I think it’s time for those of you who attacked me to eat some crow. I suggest trying it deep fried with a side of Ranch.
If Hillis was still on the Broncos he would still be riding the pine.
He doesn’t pass block and would not be playing much.
This dream of Hillis being a great runner for Denver because he is for the Browns is a fantasy. We would not rework our offense just to utilize the great Hillis.
Now with a different coach and system, then yes, Hillis could do here what he’s done in Cleveland. But not with our current coach/system.
Excellent point McJay
But the really good coaches tweak their systems to fit the unique talents of their players. The averafge and poor coaches get rid of players who do not fit their scheme perfectly.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
I do agree that if Hillis would be riding the pine if he was still here
I don’t agree that it’s because Hillis used to have trouble pass blocking. (He’s doing much better in that regard now) I think it’s because our coach is arrogant and stubborn to the point of damaging the team. The Broncos have struggled in short yardage all year. How nice it would be to have a power back. Those situations are obvious running situations anyway so your fears about pass blocking shouldn’t be an issue.
In any case, is Maroney a better pass blocker than Hillis? I’ll answer that for you. Hell no. Exactly in what facet of the game is Maroney better than Hillis? I’ll answer that for you for you as well. None. So, please tell me why it was good for this franchise to discard Hillis, and waist a fourth round draft pick to get Maroney?
can't tell you why cuz your absolutely RIGHT!!
I'm so optimistic I'd go after Moby Dick in a row boat and take the tartar sauce with me.~Zig Ziglar
by timmaybronco on Oct 27, 2010 1:04 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree we need a stud ILB that is a leader
Honestly, I liked DJ Williams coming out of college, but he is miscast in this scheme, he is a natural 4-3 weakside LB and that is where he has the most impact. But he is not a leader, the leader on that Canes defense was Vilma and DJ has never stepped up and fails to make those crucial plays like Al Wilson did, or TJ or Gradishar or Meck, he has not embraced what it means to be a LB for the Broncos. The LB unit has always been the heart and soul of the defense and it lacks any real leaders on it, and much talent. I think we should trade DJ for a draft pick or to to someone who will put him in a 4-3 scheme and looks for some help in the ILB position and DE/NT positions.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I also think we need to get a stud Center or Gurad who can bring some attitude to the line
When we lost Nalen our line was able to absorb the hit the first season because of the vets and Weigmann, but this line lacks any fire or heart. Some of that is coaching or lack of coaching, but I think we need a real nasty guy that is a leader like Nalen was.
Last season when Clady got his hair pulled and yanked down by Seymour, Nalen would of made sure Clady beat the crap out of him the next play, but instead we just took it and the Raiders new we could be bullied at that point.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I
need to tell you how much like the south end of a horse my a-hole co-worker looks like. He knows as much about the NFL as my dead grandma who hated football. He was in San Diego for the weekend and says the Chargers have really passionate fans and they’re a really good team. Hey, jackass: the Dolts are 2-5 just like we are but we have a better shot at turning it around than they do. He was in town the rare weekend the game was on television these days. I just thought that would make people feel better, I hope. As for present business, time to smack the 40 Whiners around.
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Oct 26, 2010 9:53 AM MDT reply actions
LOL
I could look at other teams in flames and take solace when we were 8-8. But we will hit mid year at either 3-5 or 2-6. Either way, by the standards we’ve let ourselves grow accustomed to as Broncos fans it is small comfort.
Then again it you look at our team’s performance since 2005 it is clear that anyone who has yet to lower their standards might want to consider getting on board.
I am still sticking with 8-8, until they’re not. That has become the new standard of excellence in the Mile High City so it is the one I will continue to use.
Come on Broncos. Get me six wins in a row and then you can pack it in again.
It could always be worse. Oh, wait. Never mind, it already is.
by TheMastermind on Oct 26, 2010 10:34 AM MDT up reply actions
No
I’m not happy with where we are right now. However, I still think we can correct our issues (call me crazy) while Felipe Rivers continues to make a jackass of himself, crying and whining all the while. I appreciate the sarcasm though. (note sarcasm)
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Oct 26, 2010 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
ask him if they sell out every home game.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
That's
what I said but he is such a tool. I, of course, don’t deem college football (at the I-A level or in junior college) to be a real sport, for there is no playoff. We cover a local junior college on our radio stations and he’s the play-by-play man. It is so comical to hear him do play-by-play as when a player bats down a pass to him it’s a “block.” Excuse me, are we playing volleyball? Anyway, he tries to argue that he knows SO much more than me, not even close. Stick to your mythical national championships, co-worker and stealing money from your employer (my father, no nepotism here I get yelled at all the time) by working three hours a day. He knows nothing, Timmie, NOTHING!
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Oct 26, 2010 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions
THe Team Quit
The team quit at 14-0. the defence looked like it had lead shoes on. When Al Wilson got hurt this team lost it’s toughness and has never got it back. I was hoping for Ray Magula and a gigantic nose tackle to be drafted,and to be here for years and build a run stopping defence.
Amazing prediction Mr. Kelly!
After the game you can call that the Broncos would quit if you were up 21-0! Yeah, um, about that. I can predict the lotto number with 100% accuracy after they are posted online. Do I get a quote in the news about how much I knew about something that already happened before it happened, after it happened.
Not that is out of the way, I wonder about a couple things. First, how can we assume changing to an “attacking” defense or keeping Alphonso Smith would make any difference? I watched what happens with an attacking defense against a team that can adjust on Monday night. The Cowboys kept taking HUGE risks every play. Trying to get the big sack or force the turnover. They couldn’t stop the Giants because the Giants countered pretty easily.
The Giants on the other hand mixed it up quite nicely. They would show blitz the majority of the time then drop into coverage more often than not. Their DBs were focusing on making sure the receivers were covered (similar to what we do now) and they had success early and often. It was a case of 3 turnovers allowing easy points for the Cowboys (only 13 total) more than their defense making big plays. This is less of a comparison because the Giants play a 4-3 where they do focus on getting pressure with their front 4, but still a valid one as they are more conservative on Defense initially. Once they had the big lead and were aware the Cowboys were stuck throwing THEN they went to an attacking style.
I think this is more an issue of perception. We see “attacking” defenses in an individual context. Baltimore is another one I would look at. They actually play great coverage, focus on pressure with zone blitzes. Stick with excellent gap coverage and really play a relatively stable style of defense. Then when their team gets up by a couple scores, watch out! They unleash the beasts they have and throw massive overload blitzes from everywhere. Their DBs switch over to “get the ball” mode rather than “Prevent the catch” mode. And everyone declares them an aggressive attacking defense.
As for the ball hawking skills of our DBs and even LBs really, that is on the defense as a whole. We don’t have the healthy personnel required to force turnovers. Due to injuries more than anything else we are forced into a position where we have to play the bend but don’t break style. Previously under Shanahan I think the issue was one of personnel on the field that then coupled with injuries to our defensive players. At this time it makes more sense to try to slow down the other team, force them to kick FGs and wait for them to make mistakes because it takes them 12 plays to go 60 yards than it does to try to ask these players to do more than they can possibly do.
IF we had DOOM! Then I would think differently. And to this point in the season I think he alone would have given us 2 more wins. The Jets and the Colts would have had to scheme much differently with him in the game. And I really do believe that would have been the difference maker. But, injuries happen. You have to adjust, and I feel that our coaching staff has actually adjusted well with what we do have…Nate Jones as a starting safety for example…ugh
Finally on to Mr. Smith. He wants the pick, every play. He wants the stats more than he wants to DO HIS JOB. His job is to ensure that the player he is covering has as much difficulty as possible catching anything thrown his way. Mr. Smith also benefited early from a young and talented D-Line doing a stellar job of beating up overrated offensive lines. This more than anything leads to easy picks. From what I have seen of his play, and I have watched 3 Detroit games this year, he has blown his coverage assignment or just been beaten enough that were he with the Broncos we would be happy that Nate Jones took over his spot. Yes, he has happy stats (OOOOHHH A PICK 6!!!), but fails at his core job requirements.
User name pronounced Air-Ah-Miss Originally from my days in the SCA, became a gamer and forum tag because it is odd and it is a name I like
by Arimaris on Oct 26, 2010 11:28 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
The problem isn't Orton
There are a lot worse QBs out there than Orton, and they and their teams are doing a lot better than us.
by HawaiiBroncoFan on Oct 26, 2010 11:50 AM MDT reply actions
Yes, the problem is Orton.
And the rest of the team.
More on Orton though, for is he struggles, this team loses. That’s the price of being a starting QB. Right now Drew Brees is the Saints biggest problem…just sayin’…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
More on Orton for the offensive struggles...
I still think the defense is where our troubles really lie.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Something I have mentioned before on Orton
Orton is a decent QB, and I have said before if things are working well and the system is running as planned, but in the NFL players need to make plays, and quite frequently that may mean whether or not the average fan notices, keeping a play alive (offense) or taclkes for loss/sacks/turnovers on defense. Now I am not going to in any way shape or form compare Tebow to Elway.
But this is what I will say about Elway, and frankly other great QB’s and that is probably in that “intangable” category, is that they either keep plays alive for longer than they need during key 3rd down, redzone, drives alive during the course of a game (either by calling the right audible, making a hot read and delivering the ball on target quickly, or moving around with their feet to make a throw or pick up a first down CONSISTANTLY, that being said I do think that Orton can do that a times but not at opportune times, and it teands to be the exception rather than the rule.
I can say this that Orton is not the entire problem, but a QB any QB who can make 5-7 key plays during opportune moments of a game can take an average or below average team and make them at minimum a playoff team.
I feel that with the parity in the league today the QB position is the one position that can truly move a team to the next level or not. Just my opinion.
great points
This has always been my problem with Orton as well. Great when the game plans goes according to plan but fails miserable when it comes time to improvise.
Everyone wants to talk about the penalty against the Jets but the offense had too many 3 and outs in the 4th quarter. That game was there for the taking if the offense takes care of business. Sure the kicking game sucked but sometimes you just need to overcome. I dont think Orton ever will
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
No
I’d say it’s more on the coaching and play calling than on Orton for the offensive struggles. But your right about the defense being the main problem.
by HawaiiBroncoFan on Oct 26, 2010 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't think McD called a pick sick and two fumbles.
We can’t just defend Orton because we like him…dude has been garbage in three straight games now. The D provided so many opportunities against the Jets and the Orton-led offense squandered them.
I’m sorry, I won’t accept Orton apologies.
Keep in mind, I am also NOT calling for Tebow either so this isn’t about me wanting to bench Orton, but the dude needs to get his freakin’ head in the game. He just looked so disinterested on Sunday…very Cutler-like. Pissed me off even more.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I don,t think Orton fumbled twice
And I think he has a better TD to Int. ratio than many in the league.
by HawaiiBroncoFan on Oct 26, 2010 6:58 PM MDT up reply actions
The Orton-led offense fumbled twice.
My exact words were “I don’t think McD called a pick six and two fumbles”
sick=six btw…I think I am still sick every time I bring that play back up in my head.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Long term, this team needs to finally address the biggest hole on this team. A hole that has now existed for four and a half years. This team needs to replace Al Wilson with a player worthy of his replacement.
I agree 100%. The loss of Al Wilson was the genesis of Shanny’s undoing IMO. The night Cutler took the starting job, Wilson was carted off. Cutler’s INTs didn’t help but I think our poor record was more due to Al Wilson not being there to lead the defense.
We desparately need to draft a defensive stud to lead the D. ILB or S.
luckiest player on the Broncos this last weekend
great...another DB won't be available this weekend.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Tim, I really think you hit on it.
Watching the Skins play on Sunday really hit home for me the differences between the way their secondary is playing, by design in my opinion, and our secondary. Granted they were playing against Cutler, but Deangelo Hall and the other Skins’ DBs were playing very aggressively and taking chances by pressing receivers and jumping routes. We might as well start taking chances and possibly getting beat. The risk is worth the reward and the alternative for us is pretty much getting beat without any potential upside.
by OrangeandBlue27 on Oct 26, 2010 5:36 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
blitz a ton and let the DBs play on their greatest asset -- instinct.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Turnovers are bad
MmKay?
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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