The Case for Wade Phillips
With the anticipation of the upcoming offseason and the inevitable changes among the coaching ranks looming, there has been much talk about any or all of the following: 1. the Broncos are a terrible team because they have no talent, 2. the Broncos are a terrible team because they can't run the ball consistently, and 3. the Broncos are terrible because their defense is talent poor, old, and slow.
We have begun to do mock drafts, started taking a look at possible General Manager and Head Coaching candidates, and have wondered if there will be a season of football next year. Realistically, there are too many unknowns to have a real shot at guessing what the new Front Office and coaching staff will look like next season. But regardless of whether Brian Xanders keeps his job as GM and receives more personnel power from Pat Bowlen, or whether an up-and-comer such as Eric DeCosta will be given the opportunity going forward, there is little doubt that the next GM will decide who the coaches in Denver should be.
As disappointed as I have grown in the FO in the past two years, I do take Joe Ellis at his word, that the next HC will not be given as much authority as Mike Shannahan and Josh McDaniels had held:
Ellis indicated the next Broncos head coach would not have the same authority as McDaniels. "We probably burdened Josh with too much responsibility," Ellis said. He indicated it was "very likely" the team won’t empower the next head coach to have as much responsibility as McDaniels was "burdened" with.
In addition, in a recent interview, Brian Xanders has mentioned that the focus for the near term in terms of the roster, will be on the defensive side of the ball:
"There likely will be a major investment on the defensive side of the ball in the draft and free agency in an attempt to get it to the top-10 level," Xanders said.
Since I do not expect the next HC to decide who will run the Denver Broncos' defense, I do expect the new or current GM, with possible input from John Elway, to find the best Defensive Coordinator available. If Bowlen wants to bring back someone who is familiar with the organization, has a good reputation as a coordinator, and gives this defense a chance to become respectable again, there ought to be one name at or near the top of a very short list.
As much as I hate the notion that Denver will once again make a coaching change at the DC position, Wink has not exactly made the best of his opportunity. Despite a rash of injuries and a few good FA acquisitions, he was not able to take advantage of at least some of the available talent that he had. In my opinion, the 2010 defense had more talent on the roster than the 2009 version. The D-line upgraded at DE with Justin Bannan and Kevin Vickerson, the NT position saw a minor and short-term upgrade with Jamal Williams, as no one can argue that he isn't a better player still, than Ron Fields. The linebackers were the least improved unit from the previous year, but McX did manage to bring in a few capable guys that came on by mid-season: Jason Hunter filled in nicely for Elvis Dumervil and Joe Mays began to show promise after showing impressive run-stopping skills on the strong side and steadily improving in coverage.
DJ did not improve enough for my taste, as he can still be moved out of a play by offensive players, and although Robert Ayers showed improvement in the beginning of the season, once he suffered a broken bone in his foot, he just wasn't the same afterward. The secondary was also hard hit with injuries, as only Ronaldo Hill managed to stay healthy all year, but there are some capable young CBs who can help settle this overall unit, at least in the near future.
Despite various excuses, Wink should've been more unpredictable and aggressive, in an effort to disguise his blitzes and disrupt offenses. He seemed hesitant, if not patient to a fault in this area, lacked creativity, and good quarterbacks took full advantage of the middle of the field against this defense. I love the fact that he relates well to his players and they love to play for him, but this defense could've been better than 32nd in the league, even without Doom's services. Mike Nolan made better use out of his less talented defensive unit the previous year, although he did have a healthy #92 on the active roster.
On a side note,Ted Bartlett has recently posted an article, in which he was making a case for trying to obtain the services of Gregg Williams from New Orleans, but as a HC instead. Personally, I'd rather he be considered as another DC candidate, since most coordinators tend to do their best work as coordinators, and not head coaches. But Sean Payton took a paycut in 2009 to have the opportunity to work with Williams, so the idea that he'd be willing to part ways this soon from someone that's made it possible for them to win the Superbowl last year, seems far-fetched. If it was possible, I'd be on board as I have a great deal of respect for his body of work over the years, but for now, the odds are stacked against this becoming reality.
Besides - Denver would have to switch back to the 4-3 more exclusively, and the idea of being able to currently run either the 4-3, 3-4, or the 5-2 ought to stay. It's understandable that many may prefer the 40 front, but with the recent upgrades at DE and OLB, this type of switch may send guys like Hunter, Bannan, Ayers, and even Dumervil (via a trade) packing, since they're either not suited for the 4-3 as a DT or a DE. In the case of Doom, many believe he is now too small to play end and best remain as an OLB in the 3-4.
When there are players such as McBean and Fields who need to go yesterday, changing schemes back would result in another major overhaul on the D-line and impact the LB corps. In my opinion, the main problem with the defense is how the current scheme is being run, and not so much the personnel. I am not a fan of doing-undoing-doing every year to see what works and since there is a basic scheme in place after already making wholesale changes with some better players than Denver has had in a few years, I think it is better to stabilize and continue to upgrade, where possible.
Other options for DC may include trying to lure Mike Nolan back to Denver, but it has been said time and time again that he prefers the East Coast and wants a HC gig again. Vortex7 recently offered some great ideas for hiring some current assistants from the Steelers, Packers, and Seahawks organizations, which are definitely more frugile options, but unfortunately, none of them have any ties to Denver.
With few coordinators available who Bowlen knows well and thus will likely approve, I think the already short list of options becomes pretty clear. Wade Phillips stands the best chance of not only getting the job in Denver, but improving the defense as well.
In a recent article, Phillips talked about his departure from the Dallas Cowboys and expressed his desire to continue coaching, albeit as a DC again:
Phillips says he is not ready to retire and still wants to coach. He doubts he will get another head coaching job but predicted he will be back in the league as a defensive coordinator soon.
"I think they're going to look at me more as a coordinator and that's fine with me. I just want to coach," Phillips said. "I got 33-34 years now in the league and I enjoy coaching. I enjoy the players and you know, once you're away from it, even for a small amount of time, you miss the camaraderie. Just the great feeling of guys working together and the people involved, so I'd like to get back into it. I think there will be an opening somewhere for defensive coordinator that has a pretty good reputation."
Other than to coach against his old friend Dan Reeves in the upcoming East-West Shrine Game at the Florida Citrus Bowl, he has nothing lined up just yet. Because of this, I think the Broncos should give strong consideration and be the first to offer him his next gig.
Wade Allen Phillips (born June 21, 1947 in Orange, TX) is the former head coach for the Dallas Cowboys, New Orleans Saints, Denver Broncos, Buffalo Bills, and Atlanta Falcons. Phillips began his professional coaching career in Houston as the linebackers coach in 1976 for the team coached by his father, as well as defensive line coach in 1977–1980.
He was best known for his work as a DC for the New Orleans Saints (1981-1985,) the Philadelphia Eagles (1986-1988,) the Denver Broncos (1989-1992,) the Buffalo Bills (1995-1997,) the Atlanta Falcons (2002,) and the San Diego Chargers (2004-2006.)
In his last stint as a DC:
In 2004, Wade Phillips took over a defense in desperate need of a tourniquet and a transfusion. The year before, the Chargers just couldn't seem to stop the bleeding during a grisly 4-12 campaign.
They couldn't stop the pass, allowing a league-worst 36 touchdowns through the air.
They couldn't stop the run, surrendering 2,218 yards and 4.3 yards per carry.
They couldn't rush the quarterback, tallying just 30 sacks all year.
Since then, the Chargers have taken a surprising leave from professional football's infirmary to become a lively playoff contender. And, though it still has its trouble spots, the 3-4 defense installed by Phillips has been a big reason for the remarkable change in prognosis.
"He's got a system that is a very, very effective system," Chargers coach Marty Schottenheimer said. "He's been doing it for a considerable length of time."
Sound familiar, Bronco fans? With his vast knowledge of the 3-4, it is no wonder San Diego became a playoff contender. Steve Nichols had this to add about Phillips:
Phillips was an innovator who turned the 3-4 upside down. His system is one-gap. The DL penetrates, and is charged with constant harrasment of the QB. The LBs are typically fast, and at least one of them will blitz on any given play.
The reason for the near constant 1-LB blitz is to account for the fact that the outnumbered DL is also relatively undersized and only one-gapping. However, the adjustments work out well. The OL never knows who the blitzer will be, or where he will come from. The Phillips is more aggressive that the Bullough. The school of thought for the Phillips 3-4 is the need to pressure against the QB to stop the pass threat, and this is done by varying who the "fourth rusher" (who is really a blitzer) is.
Add another blitzer in here and there, and the speedy/aggressive Phillips system is a threat to QBs, and attempts to get turnovers by slashing the time that a QB has to make decisions.
Phillips' return to Denver is quite possible. Reuniting with Bowlen as well as D-line coach Wayne Nunnelly and his old NT JWill, would make this a relatively smooth transition for Wade.
In looking ahead to the draft, there is one problem that stands out and here is where I believe Wade could be a most valuable addition to the staff: the 2011 draft is not talent-rich at the LB position. Since Denver may have to consider upgrading at ILB, FA may or may not have much to offer. David Harris, for example, cannot be counted on to be available. We could only assume that the Jets can't afford to resign him, and so that is an option, but not one that we can count on being available to the Broncos. Because of this, I believe that Phillips' ability to use his 1-gap variant of the 3-4 would offer enough compensation for our average LB play, by forcing the pass-rush to also come from the D-line. With his scheme, pressure could be taken away from the ILBs who have proven that they can't be counted on to stop the run or rush the QB.
He'd know how to use Jamal Williams to be effective in most likely his last year of playing football. He'd know how to maximize the talents of Marcus Thomas, Elvis Dumervil, and Robert Ayers. He may even coach up a relative unknown, David Veikune to add to the pass rush that Doom brings for this defense. And with Denver picking possibly as high as #2 overall in the next draft, he'd also make great use out of an impact player such as Nick Fairley.
All of this, without having to rebuild the defense again or changing schemes.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Agreed. I have wanted Wade since the cowboys fired him. We need to model what the Chiefs are doing, and this would be an AWESOME first step.
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Boydyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
I agree (as usual with you)
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Dec 23, 2010 7:27 PM MST up reply actions
I would love to see Wade as DC
He’s a proven coach and with ties to Denver, sounds like a good match
I could jump on board with something like this:
HC Ron Rivera
OC Kubiak
DC Wade
Three experienced coaches, including two great defensive minds, working together to patch up our horrid D..
Kubiak brings the zone-blocking, PA system that I think would be a good fit for Tebow, Knowshon and Bay Bay..
by Broncos808 on Dec 21, 2010 2:39 PM MST via mobile reply actions
I think I could be happy with this
It brings the defensive needs to the front while calling on past offensive success. I also think that these three men could be had at a decent pricetag.
The only hitch I can foresee is whether or not Phillips and Rivera can see eye-to-eye on how to employ the defense.
Otherwise, I’m all in :)
Bleeding Orange and Blue for 43 years
What about...
HC Harbaugh
DC Phillips
OC Kubes
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Colin Cowherd discussed Tebow and the next Denver HC with Lombardi
• Former NFL executive/The NFL Network’s Mike Lombardi talks about Tim Tebow as the Broncos’ next QB, Andy Reid’s legacy, the Michael Vick difference, and Bill Cowher’s future (Houston?). Lombardi
Regardless of how people feel about Michael Lombardi after the firing of McD, he did mention that the next HC in Denver will be strongly encouraged to use Tim Tebow as the QB of the future. I think he made a good point and a scary one, in that it’s “Al Davis-like” because Oakland’s last 2 Head Coaches had to figure out how to use Jamarcus Russell as the starting QB of the Raiders.
I hope this won’t present the Broncos with a major problem in getting a good HC to come to Denver.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Jamracus Russell was lazy and thought he was great
"Who says Tim Tebow can't throw the ball...? Whoever said that, they didn't know what they were talking about."
-Gus Johnson
that's Colin reaching for a controversy
It really only applies if Tim Tebow turns into Jamarcus Russell. Tim Tebow was not the 1st overall pick, and we did not hand him an insane contract that rewards him with a fortune even if he doesn’t play. How the Raiders managed to turn things around this year is a testament to Tom Cable, because that Russell dude was one helluva albatross around his neck.
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 22, 2010 8:17 AM MST up reply actions
Please HP...NEVER compare Tebow to Russell.....its just a HUGE insult!
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
I don't know enough about Harbaugh as a coach.
I know he’s had Stanford playing out of their skulls for the past couple years, though. But there have been plenty of great college coaches that failed at the pro level. I’d just hate for the Broncos to be the latest organization to get bitten by that.
That being said, if the home team actually picks him as our next HC, then I’ll be firmly behind him, just as I was with McDaniels and every head coach before him.
Bleeding Orange and Blue for 43 years
Glad to see I'm not nuts
I’ve been saying those three names along with Schotenheimer as GM since McD got canned……
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
add Elway as EVP of Football Ops
and that is one helluva staff.
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 21, 2010 5:37 PM MST up reply actions
Agreed Sad and Montana...pumped on that!
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
plus I think it would be fun if Schotty and Elway teamed up
If you can’t beat em, join em. : )
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 22, 2010 8:18 AM MST up reply actions
Horrible Idea
This ranks just below re-hiring McDaniels. I like Wade for a DC job but he has already proven he is a #2 guy and not a Head Coach. Why not just go get Dan Reeves.
It looks like you read it too fast
Wade Phillips for Defensive Coordinator, not Head Coach.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
So in other words
you’re in favor of what this post said and it’s NOT a horrible idea? : )
I like Wade for a DC job
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 21, 2010 5:44 PM MST up reply actions
I think Wade as DC is the holy grail scenario
That might actually prevent the need to scrap the 3-4 experiment. And, Doom would remain Cost effective because he is only situational on a 4-3 system.
I too dabbled in pacifism once...
by waltersobchakbronco on Dec 21, 2010 2:51 PM MST via mobile reply actions
I like Rivera as a HC and Kubiak as a OC
Would Wade even be interested in coming back to Denver? We gave him a shot and then dumped him on his butt after two years. I won’t disagree that I think he is a great DC (though I think he runs a different 3-4 than Denver currently) he might not be interested in coming back to a place that sent him packing back in ’92?
That's an interesting point
I think Denver has a few things going for them though:
1. He’s been humbled due to his recent firing
2. He’s realistic about his chances of being a HC any time soon
3. Being fired by Bowlen was about 15 years ago. Time heals?
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Good Points
Went and looked into who the Chargers have on staff under Rivera on the Defensive side and they are primarily people Rivera worked with in Chicago. I would think that he would like people he knows. DL (Don Johnson) and DB (Steven Wilks) Coaches are people he worked with in Chicago. I think that the Future HC might be forced (willing) to keep a couple of current Bronco coaches for at least a season. Will be interesting to see anyway.
by maritimebronco on Dec 21, 2010 4:00 PM MST up reply actions
4.
Wouldn’t you love to have an old boss who fired you come crawling back begging for your services?
; )
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 21, 2010 5:46 PM MST up reply actions
also
this isn’t an unheard of scenario. Gunther Cunningham was fired as Chiefs HC then rehired as their DC.
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 21, 2010 5:48 PM MST up reply actions
insane I know
It would be like firing Josh McDaniels as HC then hiring him as OC…. um…. hmmmm… (lost in thought)
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 21, 2010 5:49 PM MST up reply actions
Believe me
Kubiak could be the HC for all I care, as long as he’d take a hands-off approach on the offense, allowing McD to do what he does best.
It’s not gonna happen, but one can dream (=
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
by Horsepower on Dec 21, 2010 6:52 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely bm!
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
I think people are underestimating the difference between 3-4 schemes. We are going to have a drastic change in the defense unless we keep the same scheme McD was implementing. My understanding is that McD was using quite a different scheme than someone like Wade Phillips would bring even though they are both 3-4 defenses. In McD’s system and it really shows, the OLB are required to be able to cover in space, be able to blitz and stop the run effectively. The OLB’s in McD’s system (or the current Patriot system) are supposed to be the most versatile players on the field b/c of their mult-faceted responsibilities. In Wade’s 3-4 scheme, my understanding is that it is essentially a 4-3 scheme, or a 5-2 scheme without using the down lineman in order to better disguise the blitz packages. Nevertheless, the OLB in Wade’s scheme are required to do quite a bit less and their primary focus is on rushing the passer – not playing in space. This also changes the techniques the d-lineman are required to utilize.
That is a long way of saying that our scheme will most likely be revamped no matter what, also requiring different personnel, or using personnel differently, regardless of who the new coach is, and independent of whether we continue in a 3-4 alignment or a 4-3 alignment.
You should come around more often
Ive noticed youre last few posts/comments and I like youre knowledge of the game..
Do more fanposts
by Broncos808 on Dec 21, 2010 4:10 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
To tell you the truth
there was one significant reason behind my entertaining this idea, of replacing Wink with Wade. Our defense is considered the worst in the league this season in almost all categories. They have been beaten soundly by good running teams. For the D to improve, especially against the run, the 3 most critical positions will need an upgrade: NT, SILB, and WILB.
But here’s the problem. Unfortunately, the 2011 draft doesn’t seem to have any promising talent at the ILB position. It is far more rich in talented D-linemen and CBs, with very average LBs available. This presents an issue for us, because DJ is hot and cold and based on his troubles shedding blockers, we may need an upgrade at his position. Of the other ILBs on the roster, the only other promising LB that may earn the starting role is Joe Mays. JWill at NT is ok in limited action for perhaps another year, but that is about as much as we can expect out of him. And as far as FA is concerned, it is anyone’s guess who will be available. I don’t think the Broncos can assume that keeping Wink around, the defense will get better, as long as Elvis returns to form and they can pick up some key players such as David Harris.
So what will the Broncos do and how will this current issue be addressed exactly, if we have any hope of climbing out of the basement?
One solution is to relieve Wink of his responsibilities and hire Phillips in his place. Wade’s variant of this scheme will take some of the pressure off our LBs by not asking so much of them, and tasking the D-linemen to play the 1-gap variation (the “Phillips”) of the 3-4, as opposed to what they are currently doing, which is playing the 2-gap variant (the Bullough.)
The current scheme being run (for the most part,) is intended to feature the LBs on the defense. The 3 linemen are primarily responsible for consuming blockers, commanding double-teams, while that is supposed to allow the LBs to make plays. The problem is, the LBs are not making plays. The solution? Stop featuring them – they are an embarrassment, especially up the middle of the field. Take pressure off of them by tasking the D-linemen with getting into the backfield.
By doing this, it makes life easier for the front-7 in the sense that the linemen have only one gap to worry about (no longer are they responsible for 2 gaps to either side of them,) while the linebackers can take advantage of the chaos created up front and hopefully have an easier time against RBs and crossing receivers.
If used properly, this unit could play better and that was what made me begin thinking more and more of Wade and how useful he could be in light of the fact that there are few LB prospects coming out and good NTs are always difficult to find. Basically, if we want a quick turnaround for our defense, this could do it.
For more on the 3-4, here’s a link to one of Steve Nichols’ previous articles in MHR University.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
by Horsepower on Dec 21, 2010 6:50 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
i think Big Vick would flourish at DE in Wades 3-4.. What do you think?
by Broncos808 on Dec 21, 2010 8:15 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I think he'd at least make a good rotational player
but am unsure in the long run, because Wade seems to prefer smaller D-linemen in his scheme. For a DE, Wade needs players who would thrive in the 1-gap technique. And he only has to have the size of a 4-3 end, although technique trumps size in most cases.
Vickerson is a big 6’5" 321 lb. former DT in the 4-3 with Tennessee, who traded him to the Seahawks for a 2010 2nd round pick. In other words, he’s a monster. I think he’s a heck of a player, and can play well in the 3-4, but primarily against the run. Since he is not a textbook penetrator, it is hard to tell how Wade would feel about him. Initially, I’d see him as a situational player before growing into his new role.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
This sounds like what our scheme SHOULD be.
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Honest question
Does the fact that he was fired as Head Coach here make it harder for him to come back as a DC, especially if someone else is calling?
Ten years ago, perhaps
Now, who knows? Not sure what he and Bowlen’s dispositions are toward each other, but it makes a lot of sense from a schematic standpoint and I’m sure Bowlen will do whatever he thinks gives us the best chance to win.
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 21, 2010 5:39 PM MST up reply actions
WOW, HP
That is one old school MHR post. Loved every minute of it, right down to the Steve Nichols quote. I was lukewarm on Wade before, but you’ve sold me man. Let’s do this.
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
Very high quality post!
"Who says Tim Tebow can't throw the ball...? Whoever said that, they didn't know what they were talking about."
-Gus Johnson
by plainview88 on Dec 21, 2010 6:33 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Very good argument...
I’d keep the 3-4 with Wade at helm.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
while I don't have a problem with any of your candidates
I am in favor of keeping Wink for another year. I think you went back and forth there a bit when you said he had all this talent around him but couldn’t get it done. Then after that you ripped on those so called talented players.
I’m not gonna rip you for it, but I believe there needs to be upgrades in the entire unit. All of the LB’s need to go IMO. Some more beef up front would be nice too. Then a SS and we can do something.
At some point in time the turnstile at DC needs to stop and people are going to have to be patient for more than one week at a time.
Nice presentation Dave.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
I'm actually putting more blame on the ILBs
I think that is where the team has been hit hardest by opposing offenses.
Let’s see, who did I rip on:
DJ did not improve enough for my taste, as he can still be moved out of a play by offensive players, and although Robert Ayers showed improvement in the beginning of the season, once he suffered a broken bone in his foot, he just wasn’t the same afterward.
I do believe that Ayers can be coached up though. I don’t think he’s reached his ceiling yet.
When there are players such as McBean and Fields who need to go yesterday, changing schemes back would result in another major overhaul on the D-line and impact the LB corps.
But there was some appreciation for the ones who did well enough for us to stay a while:
The D-line upgraded at DE with Justin Bannan and Kevin Vickerson, the NT position saw a minor and short-term upgrade with Jamal Williams, as no one can argue that he isn’t a better player still, than Ron Fields. The linebackers were the least improved unit from the previous year, but did manage to bring in a few capable guys that came on by mid-season: Jason Hunter filled in nicely for Elvis Dumervil and Joe Mays began to show promise after showing impressive run-stopping skills on the strong side and steadily improving in coverage.
And I gave the secondary a break since they’ve had 2 or 3 of the starters out with injuries, Goody being the worst. I don’t think he’s started more than 5 games this season. No wonder the pass defense was nothing like the previous season.
I agree we need some key upgrades. NT, ILB, and Safety. Bruton and McBath need to stay healthy or someone else needs to replace BDawk and Hill.
Appreciate your thoughts Kirk and am glad you had the time to read it!
But there are keepers:
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Dang
Ignore the last line. Preview fail…
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
LOL
It’s all good
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Great post. Rec'd.
Denver would have to switch back to the 4-3 more exclusively, and the idea of being able to currently run either the 4-3, 3-4, or the 5-2 ought to stay
Should it stay, really? I struggle with that. Being able to run a 4-3, 3-4, or 5-2 is nice, but I’d rather be able to run just one thing really well. I’d rather have our defense be really good at something. I know, it’s a lot to ask for the Denver defense to be good at anything, but that’s what I want.
While I’m all for the idea of running an amoeba defense and confusing the quarterback, I think we’ll have to work toward it over time. I’d be cool with figuring out how to play any kind of defense well and then working on adding other variables later on.
As long as the defense we decide to use can stop the run, I’ll be happy with it.
The ignorant redneck formerly known as kentuckybronco.
Thanks Troy
I think that switching back could present another potential overhaul of the D and I’d rather do what we can to salvage the better players, while upgrading where needed and possible.
I think the Phillips 3-4 is actually simpler to run than the Bullough. Steve did a great job explaining some of the differences and even added a section on the Lebeau aone-blitz variant.
Remember Nunnelly from TC this year? “Nobody runs on the Denver Broncos!” Sigh. It was a positive message, I’ll give him that.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Agreed on all counts.
I guess that brings into question what the Broncos are running, right now. Are we playing the 3-4 or the 4-3, right now?
Actually, I think a more fair question would be “are we even playing defense”? The answer is most likely “no”. I don’t see the harm in switching systems, at this point, because what we’re doing obviously isn’t working. If you’re going to scrap most of the roster and most of the coaching staff, anyways, why not switch to a scheme that most of your new acquisitions are comfortable with. So, if we do bring in Philips, like you say, then we should run something that he is known for (the cover 2, 3-4) and then fill in the players around it.
There are two ways to go about a change in defense. You can build a scheme around the players or acquire players that fit the scheme. As it stands, we don’t have the players that fit our scheme… and we probably don’t have the players to fit any scheme. We’ll need to acquire talent, regardless, so if there was ever a time to pick a different scheme, now is that time.
The ignorant redneck formerly known as kentuckybronco.
by Troy Hufford on Dec 21, 2010 7:22 PM MST up reply actions
The 2010 D has more upside than the 2008 version did
If these players were to be cut in the offseason, most of them would be able to sign onto other teams. Here are the keepers, in my opinion:
Lee Robinson, Ryan McBean, Ron Fields, Nate Jones…just kidding. This is the s%$& list.
The keepers are: Kevin Vickerson, Justin Bannan, Marcus Thomas (who would excel in the Phillips system,) Robert Ayers, Jason Hunter, Elvis Dumervil, Joe Mays, Perrish Cox (if he can stay out of prison,) Syd’Quan Thompson, Cassius Vaughn, David Bruton, Darcel McBath (he needs to stay healthy,) and Champ Bailey ( we don’t know what the heck’s gonna happen to Cox and can’t expect to draft Patrick Peterson.)
I’m on the fence regarding JWill, DJ, Ronaldo Hill, Andre Goodman, and BDawk – one more year for them tops. The rest can either play Special Teams or take a hike.
Add a few impact players from the draft (Nick Fairley would fit this scheme next to Thomas like a glove) and bring in hopefully at least 1 FA, and this defense could be a middle of the pack in its first year together.
Know of any good safeties coming out of this draft?
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Know of any good safeties coming out of this draft?
I don’t. I’m not in draft mode, quite yet. That would be a Sayre question, at this point.
The ignorant redneck formerly known as kentuckybronco.
by Troy Hufford on Dec 21, 2010 7:44 PM MST up reply actions
Mark Barron, SS Alabama
Every game of Bamas ive watched, he was all over the place…
I think he would be a perfect replacement for Dawk…
by Broncos808 on Dec 21, 2010 11:26 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Ive seen about 5 or 6 of his games since last year.. Not much to go off really, but he passes my eye test with flying colors
by Broncos808 on Dec 21, 2010 11:28 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I've heard his name before
It seems he’s injured, unfortunately:
12/19/2010 – University of Alabama defensive back Mark Barron underwent surgery to repair a pectoral muscle tear sustained in the Crimson Tide’s 28-27 home loss to Auburn last Friday, and will miss the Crimson Tide’s bowl game. Whether the injury impacts the junior safety’s decision of whether to declare eligibility for the NFL Draft remains to be seen, but the length of rehabilitation could affect Barron’s availability for the NFL Combine in February. “Mark Barron suffered a muscle tear and had successful surgery to repair it. He’s already started the rehab process, but he will be out for the bowl game,” UA coach Nick Saban said.
If the Broncos like him, they could draft him in a later round, since his stock is sure to fall because of this injury.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Very nice, Horsepower!
I just wish we could know whether Wink’s defense was what we saw all season or whether this was McD’s defense. Either way it has been a disaster… 32nd in a 32 team league leaves considerable room for improvement.
Some have remarked that we have some pretty good personnel for the 4-3, as most of our D-line and LB have been converted from 4-3 to the current 3-4. I sometimes feel that we have been pounding square pegs in round holes.
Your suggestion for Wade as DC has merit, especially if we have a HC who favors the 3-4.
Very thought-provoking article and rec’d. Thanks for a fine effort.
"A man's life is dyed the color of his imagination."
Marcus Aurelius
My darkhorse candidate
Is whoever the new head coach chooses. Yes, I agree personnel decisions should be made by an empowered (and hopefully new) personnel department – but let’s not mess around with what’s on the field. I think it was a huge mistake forcing Mike Nolan on Josh McDaniels because every head coach has certain coaches that have previously enjoyed working with/share philosophies with. McDaniels and Nolan were never going to see eye to eye because they wanted two different defenses. If the new head coach has a coordinator in mind, I think it’s best to let him do so. If not, I’d love Phillips to return to Denver in that capacity.
forcing Mike Nolan on Josh McDaniels
Nolan was McDaniels’ hire, wasn’t he?
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 22, 2010 8:08 AM MST up reply actions
Right
But he’s right when he says:
McDaniels and Nolan were never going to see eye to eye because they wanted two different defenses.
The straw that broke the camel’s back was the Indy game, where our D spotted them 21 points before the O could get back in it.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
it was just a shame
they didn’t recognize that sooner. Such a weird year, 09.
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 22, 2010 8:49 AM MST up reply actions
McDaniels ruled with an iron fist
Mike Nolan was not the problem. The issue between both he and McDaniels had more to do with McDaniels youth, inexperience, insecurity, lack of communication skills, and his way or the highway aproach. A successfull experienced head coach understands that when you have coaches you must allow them to coach. McDaniels never allowed this to happen with his coaches. Like Shanahan, it was his way or the highway. Nolan has a strong track record for running successful defenses (i.e. Baltimore, San Francisco, Denver, and Miami). The defense fell apart in 2009 due to a lack of overall talent, depth, and McDaniels wanting things done his way. McDaniels iron rule not only affected Nolan but other players as well. Alphonso Smith, while not successful in Denver, played quite well for Detroit ending up with five interceptions. Peyton Hillis went on to have over a thousand yards in Cleveland both running and receiving. The talent on this team is clearly enough to end up with a better record than what we have. Gentleman, I give you a coach who was young, inexperienced, insecure, and lacked communication skills. Therefore, he rule with an iron fist.
no argument here, man
The McD ship has sailed. Not much to do about it now.
In good times and bad times, I'm a Bronco fan. Sucka.
by broncosmontana on Dec 22, 2010 11:32 PM MST up reply actions
Is it possible that the front 3 are not playing up to their potential?
Is it a matter of coaching, playcalling or just all around talent? Isn’t it a problem when the OT is taking on our OLBs? Ayers loves to dance and hasn’t showed my a spin move or a swim move yet. Hasn’t he learned anything from Doom? I don’t get some of the problems I see up front and it is puzzling and if the coaches can’t fix the players then maybe a coach who can needs to come in and fix it. Something has to be done and soon…
I believe Wade as a DC would be a clear upgrade over Wink. As I’ve hated and hated on McD’s coaching staff (although his little bro isn’t half bad), I’m all for this kind of change. This team needs change, not continuity.
The change at QB was great for our team last week. We need more change and we need it on the D. Wade as DC would be a big change. I’m all for it. Several draft picks, an UFA or three and a new DC would reshape our D in one off-season to something we don’t recognize in 2011. I recognize our 2010 D. I recognize it was the worst defense in the NFL.
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
i'm curious why you think ben is good (or not half bad)
i’m not disagreeing, just wondering. i’m actually horrified that a team could draft a “project” QB like tebow and then entrust his development to a high school coach that made it to the NFL through nepotism. that’s like asking your never-grown-up-still-partying buddy to nanny your kids. i think i’d err on the side of a mary poppins / nanny mcphee type.
Since I think Orton is an average player that overachieved in 2009 and 2010 and Tebow looked very good in his one piece of real PT, I’m going to say Ben McD has overachieved vs his colleagues. Those being the experienced and crappy McCoy, Wink, Priefer and Studsville jump to mind. Might was well throw in Barone, the CB coach and HCs into that mix.
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
All I know is our D is an absolute joke this year....
And Doom being out has nothing to do with it. It would be a joke if he was here anyway.
Wink needs to go. We need a real, actual, experienced, pro D-Coordinator.
Let’s get some real coaches in this town for once. Not some inexperienced nobodies.
by charlesnelsonreilly on Dec 22, 2010 8:25 AM MST reply actions
You know more than you let on.
Then you must be for Wade Phillips as DC. He is a real, actual, experienced pro D-coordinator.
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
Wade Phillips DC, Schottenheimer as GM, and Harbaugh, or Gruden as HC.
Bronco Champions are being forged as we speak.
Who should be the Offensive Coordinator?
And which QB do you think he’ll prefer? Orton, Tebow, or argue with the GM to draft Luck?
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
I really wouldnt want to see Kubiak as OC....I really havent thought about it though. I am sure there are some great minds.
Bronco Champions are being forged as we speak.
by BroncoRick69 on Dec 22, 2010 12:04 PM MST up reply actions
Something to consider
The key to Denvers success defensively will come down to the structure of the organization. The new g.m. will likely assist in making the call on who the next head coach will be. However, will the coach be allowed to pick his own coordinators or will the g.m. pick them? Remember, to properly build an organization it must define it’s own identity, not the head coach. Think about the Steelers and Chargers in this regard. With the way the structure is set up, they can lose coaches and players and still have the same identity. The schemes don’t change. This allows for the organization to successfully draft, sign, and develop players. Coaches and players are brought in to fit their identity, not the other way around. Wade Phillips, although he is a good defensive coordinator, fate will be determined by who the head coach will be or if the organization hires the coordinators individual.
Good points
Stand by. I am working on putting some ideas together.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Great post Horsepower.
Funny story. I have a co-worker who’s a big Cowboys fan. Before the firings we were both bitching about our HCs, I said I’d trade him McD for Phillips back. As a DC it’s even better. Love it.
Oh, I know you said reunite him with Nunnelly and Williams, but I found something the other day about another guy he could reunite with.
Watch the mic’d up part.
Thanks Digger
Here’s the link to the Ruben Carter video. (Highlight a word in your text, select the chain icon next to the quotation symbol and paste the URL.)
Have you heard anything about Carter leaving New Mexico to join the Broncos staff?
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Thank you Horsepower!
No I haven’t, but you know how it goes, it’s not always what you know, but who you know.
Completely sold me on Phillips
You make a great case that he runs the kind of 3-4 that our personnel would be better suited for. And with Phillips expecting a Coordinator position, it seems like it can be a good possibility.
Fantastic post!

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