Third Down...and Out
I tried to get this post finished before Sunday's game, but I didn't expect the rabbit hole I was entering to be so deep and seemingly never-ending. Fortunately, I had all the data researched and ready to go by late Saturday night so all I had to do was plug in the numbers from the Broncos-Chiefs game on Sunday to begin actually writing. Also (un)fortunately, the game did little to improve the numbers I had already gathered.
Many of you know how critical I have been of Kyle Orton nearly all season long, but most of my criticism was based on what my eyes were seeing and I never did any meaningful research to see if my gut instinct was correct. However, after twelve weeks I felt it was time to examine the actual statistical reality and compare it to my own opinion. The result was worse than I imagined it would be.
The following is mostly an indictment upon Kyle Orton, but it is also an indictment upon Josh McDaniels as the play calling has, at times, placed Orton in rather unfortunate situations. However, it has also become plain to me that most of the failures on third down are entirely due to the failure of Orton to make plays when they are needed the most.
To figure all of this out I had to compile the actual drive stats for every single drive the offense has run this season. No small task, I assure you. Then I had to break the drives down by the situations the drives occurred. This is where the only subjective part of this statistical compilation came into play, so I will explain in detail how I went about doing that and what my criteria were in doing so.
The first set of data is the largest and most common. I simply named it the Regular Game Action category. This category basically has every single drive in the first half (even the Oakland game), as well as most third quarter action in games that were either close or a Denver Broncos blowout.
The second set of data is categorized as Garbage Time Action, which contain any drives that took place when the Broncos were down by three or more scores in the second half. I had to include the Rams game in this category even though Orton led the Broncos back into this game, simply because the Rams were running the prevent defense during that rally and returned to their base defense on the final drive.
The last set of data is likely to be the most contentious group of data, which I have dubbed Clutch (Game in Doubt). This includes any drive that took place during the late third and through the fourth quarter of any game where the Broncos trailed by a single score.
I also threw out several so-called drives that resulted from the victory formation or very short drives that resulted in instant turnovers - such as the Orton pick six and Demaryius Thomas fumble from the Raider game. Also, I did my best to get 100% accuracy, but if I am off by a number here or there please refrain from crucifying me. If any mistakes are found, let me know and I will fix them. The data set is too large for any minor error to change anything, so I am not too worried about that.
Let's get to it.
Regular Game Action
I will start with the data gathered from the 91 drives that fell under this category. Here is a chart showing the overall breakdown of the drives listed and the 3rd down conversion rate:
| Regular Game Action | ||||
| Pass Plays |
Run Plays |
Yards | Pts. | 3rd Down Conversion |
| 338 | 216 | 3018 | 173 | 46/116 |
As you can see, the Broncos have thrown the ball a little over 60% of the time in regular game action. I think this had more to do with injuries and a lack of talent in the backfield more than it had to do with McDaniels desire to throw more than run. Also, note the putrid 39.7% third down conversion rate as we'll come back to that in a minute.
First, before we get to the really shocking items, I'd like to go over a few things I noticed while examining each drive in more detail. The Broncos scored touchdowns on twenty of their 91 drives in this data set. The remarkable stat that came out of this is that on seven of those twenty drives, the Broncos did not have to convert a single third down during the length of the drive. Granted, any drive that doesn't need a third down conversion would result in a touchdown, but that stat sort of confirmed my suspicion that everything must go right for Orton to convert drives into touchdowns.
The other thing that bothered me, though I did not research other teams to see if this number was indeed bad, was that this team had to travel 17 yards for every point scored, which seems high to me. Anyways, these things are peanuts compared to what else I found. Let's go with a bullet format for these:
- Out of Kyle Orton's 33 sacks taken this season, 16 have come on third down during this Regular Game Action category. Four other drives also ended in large part because of sacks taken on first or second down prior to the third down failure (3 sacks on second down, 1 on first down). Do I need to mention how awful that stat is? This has very little to do with actual line protection. Kyle Orton is incredibly indecisive on third downs and when his first option is covered he panics, resulting in busted plays.
- Out of the 116 third down plays, the shotgun formation was run 97 times. I am not sure what to make of this stat other than it drives me crazy to see Orton in shotgun on third and short. Of those 97 shotgun formations, a first down or touchdown was obtained just thirty times out of that formation. Correct me if I am wrong, but 30.9% conversion rate is bad right?
- One good stat, only two third down attempts resulted in interceptions.
- Of the failed third down conversions, 44 were passes, 7 runs, 16 sacks, 2 INT and 1 Penalty. The one penalty ended up being a failed third down pass, but I decided to blame the holding penalty rather than Orton's incomplete pass, since the hold cost the team a first down.
- When Kyle Orton throws a second down incomplete pass, the Broncos convert just 6.25% of their third downs. Yes, SIX POINT TWO FIVE.
Not much else to add to this. Though if any of this made you sick to your stomach, I should inform you that this was the good. The bad and ugly is coming up next.
Garbage Time Action
On to the bad. I felt like there should be more, but I was a bit more lenient on my definition of what a "garbage time" drive is. Therefore, I counted just 20 drives that fit my criteria. My criteria was a large deficit and/or against the prevent defense. Here is the breakdown of drives:
| Garbage Time Action | ||||
| Pass Plays |
Run Plays |
Yards | Pts. | 3rd Down Conversion |
| 91 | 19 | 720 | 52 | 5/21 |
Desperate times call for desperate measures. This time the Broncos necessarily chucked the ball 82.7% of the time, with pretty impressive results. Though the third down conversion rate is still atrocious at 23.8%, the Broncos converted 50% on fourth downs. They also put points on the board eight out of the twenty drives, including seven touchdowns!
This time around, the Broncos only had two drives that did not require a third down conversion to score, so at least some conversions were necessary albeit fourth downs included. The big thing here is only 13.8 yards were needed for every point scored. Perhaps this is why the Prevent defense is so annoying to fans - why do coaches insist on running it? Bullet time:
- Of the 16 failed third down conversions, 13 were passes, one run and one sack. This brings Orton's sack total on third down to 17 by the way. Also, two other sacks on first or second down resulted in a failed third down conversion during that set of downs. So actually, out of 33 total sacks on the year, we are up to 23 that would help bring about a failed third down conversion and we still have one more category to examine.
- Once again, its all shotgun all the time. Of the 21 third down plays, 20 were run in the shotgun formation. This makes sense though, since it is desperation time at this point in a game.
- A second down incomplete pass resulted in a 0% conversion rate on third down. Yes, that is a zero.
The bad is that the Broncos have spent so much time in Garbage Time. This information should make you somewhat ill, but rest assured the ugly will put all to shame.
Clutch (Game in Doubt)
The ugly is Kyle Orton's performance (along with Josh McDaniels play calling) when it is a one possession score late in the third quarter and through the fourth quarter. We'll start with the breakdown of the 18 drives I counted while the Broncos were in this situation:
| Clutch (Game in Doubt) | ||||
| Pass Plays |
Run Plays |
Yards | Pts. | 3rd Down Conversion |
| 83 | 26 | 529 | 19 | 4/17 |
The unwillingness to run the ball during close games continues to vex me, for passing the ball 76% of the time just makes no sense. Late in the game is when you are supposed to wear down your opponent and there are far too many three or four and outs in this category for my liking (7 out of the 18 drives). Third downs still embarrassing at just 23.5% and a laughable 27.8 yards per point. This category is why I believe Kyle Orton has failed as a starting quarterback for this football team. However, before I completely levy my indictment upon him, let's examine all of the key points I have found:
- Kyle Orton took fewer sacks in this category. In fact, none on third down and only two on the other downs that would lead to unsuccessful third down conversions. That brings his total to 25 sacks that would play a large role in unsuccessful third down attempts. Ouch!
- Once again, the shotgun formation rules the day. 14 of the 17 attempts were out of this formation, only 3 were successful in converting.
- The most shocking and likely the most damning stat of all is the six turnovers (3 INT and 3 Fumbles) by Orton, five of which came on third downs. Also, three failed fourth down conversions.
- Both touchdowns scored in the clutch were on drives that did not have a single third down attempt.
- There were four incomplete passes on second down, resulting in zero third down conversions.
I have only one word for this. Shocking. It is shocking to me at how bad Kyle Orton is late in the game with victory within reach. There is only one excuse a fan of Kyle Orton could possibly use to explain away these facts and that is the play calling of Josh McDaniels. I can agree with that up to a point, but I cannot deny that most of the blame must fall upon Kyle Orton's shoulders.
Whoever starts at quarterback in 2011, his name will not be Kyle Orton, so it is time to give Tebow a looksee. For if Tebow does not progress at quarterback enough in these final four games, at least we'll know that a Top 5 quarterback is where this team will need to go in next years draft.
The only reasoning I can figure for sticking with Orton for the rest of this dreadful season is for trade value. The Broncos are heading for a Top 5 pick, perhaps even Top 3. So that is why I cannot understand why the hell the front office is so unwilling to get some experience under Tebow's belt. Otherwise, how does this organization pass on Andrew Luck if by some miracle he drops a spot or two?
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I was waiting to see the "clutch" stats
Glad to see them posted. I’ve honestly come to expect Orton to fail in those situations. What makes it worse is that its not that it ends in a close play or a 4th down conversion, it usually ends in a turnover.
I just hope Tebow will give us hope in the clutch, cuz Orton provides none for me. I’ve been with you all year on Orton’s lack of clutch. The one close game we won because of Orton was in tennesse, where the drive was only succesful on a PI call, where we preceeded to have karma bite us right back and lose to the Jets on the same thing
I also was waiting for these kinds if stats
Like Tim, I just had that gut feeling that Orton wasn’t getting it done not only in the 4th but in critical situations…
This just about does it for me with Orton
I usually save the homepage as my last stop for my hourly MHR fix (:…
but i just posted about how the New Coach/GM are gonna want to acquire extra picks in the later rounds..
I’d be much happier trading Orton for solid value (because we maxed his out)
Rather then have to trade down from any of our high picks…
Especially after reading about Ortons crunchtime struggles.. its time to go Orton, thank god we signed him to an extension, so we can get something for the guy..
Great great article Tim, props… Youve really opened my eyes
I think its Tebow Time.. we have to see if he’s worth putting the future in his hands going forward…
Heres what my perfect 2011 lineup looks like
QB: Tebow
HB: Knowshon, Lendale, Sproles/Lamichael James/Devine
FB: Larsen
WR: Lloyd, DT, Eddie in the slot.. Deck subbing all of them
TE: Kyle Rudolph, Quinn
T Clady Harris, draft pick for depth
G Kuper Beadles, Olsen/draft pickfor depth
C Walton (why didnt we sign Mawae, I do like Walton but damn)
DE: Vick, Bannan, Nick Fairley, Thomas rotating
NT: Jamal, draft pick
OLB: Doom, Ayers, Hunter, Haggan/draft pick
ILB: DJ, Mays, Wood, Haggan/draft pick
CB: Goody, Cox, Squid/draft pick, Vaughn ST
S: Champ, McBath/Bruton/draft pick
K:…… Elam
P:…… McBriar
Hawaii Alums :) i dont really care whose our kickers, as long as their dependable
by Broncos808 on Dec 7, 2010 11:29 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
I like Prater… i love that the kicker has a tattoo sleeve… sick..
Prater, so far so good, im definitely not opposed to keeping him for a long time, as long as he keeps doing what hes doing (sans the London extra point.. seriously though WTF was that.. haha)
Go Broncos
by Broncos808 on Dec 7, 2010 11:39 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
great picks 808
Fairley, Rudolph, Devine or James – Love it. The only quams I have is what makes you think we don’t keep Colquitt, I mean the dude has a nice pedigree. Also, I assume you meant Prater at Kicker?
P.S.
I’d rather keep Gronk at TE as a backup, inline blocker than Quinn – who’s showed time and time again his enormous bustitude.
Thanks man!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
don't count out
Woodyard for a starting ILB spot. I believe he is underrated because of his size but would be one of those guys if given a chance at starting he would be hard to move out, reminds me of Tom Jackson.
by rubincarterrocks on Dec 8, 2010 10:13 AM MST up reply actions
Agreed on Luck
If the reviews are even half accurate (Elway raved about him, Dilfer called him the best QB prosepect) I don’t see how we could pass on him if he dropped. However I don’t see Carolina pasing, and if they did then I would think they would just trade their pick.
Now if Tebow was to start and he did poorly over the 4 games I don’t think that would really be enough time to evaluate him and decide that a 1st round QB should be a need.
Witnessed Playoffs last: April 28, 2008
Sincerely yours, Tortured T.O Fan
Dilfer called him the best QB prospect ever**
Witnessed Playoffs last: April 28, 2008
Sincerely yours, Tortured T.O Fan
Dilfer Quotes
“In my opinion,” Dilfer said of Bradford, “he is not even close to the best player in this draft.”
“Bradford is a talented guy,” Dilfer said. “I understand why the perception has become what it is—because he looks good in shorts. But that is the way he has played football, too. He has played in a 7-on-7 environment, not an 11-on-11 environment.”
Dilfer’s argument about Clausen: Clausen played in a Pro-Style offense, and is the quarterback who is probably the most ready.
I wouldn’t take Dilfer’s word as the end all, be all.
by Jordo5150 on Dec 7, 2010 10:48 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Price too high
Luck would cost us at least one Monster D Lineman and one quality starter D player – and probably a utility to boot.
proclaiming Luck as the second coming
is as dicey as calling Tebow the same thing. Fact is, we haven’t seen Luck do it in the pros (even though I think he’ll be a good one, but there aew always Tim Couch’s out there). We actually have more pro game film on Tebow from the preseason – which I thought was impressive seeing how Josh made Tebow line up behind center, which is something Tebow isn’t used to doing.
Tebow showed the ability (albeit against 2nd & 3rd teamers) to remain calm/focused, he showed a short memory after making mistakes (a quality of greatness), and he showed a good ability to extend plays when the X’s and O’s broke down – something Kyle has no ability whatsoever to do. Tim also showed much improvement in his throwing motion (something I feel is vastly overrated), and also showed very good arm strength. Even though Tim was dinged up on the play (I promise you that bruised ribs wouldn’t have kept him out if he was the starter), Tim showed elite power/strength on the TD scamper.
Another thing I’ve noticed, and it’s purely my opinion, is that the line seems to block better for Tebow in the redzone, as he has literally walked in on all 3 of his TD’s. Most people don’t credit Tebow for the TD pass to Larsen, but when looking back at that play, Tebow put it on the money, where no one else could get it.
We all need to calm down here and realize that Bowlen isn’t stupid (the firing of one coach, especially an unsuccessful first timer who’s tenure was mired in drama-controversy) and as we all know, Elway will be brought in to a FO position (not named GM) and he happens to be a super smart cat himself.
Both of these people realize, from a business and football standpoint, that quitting on Tebow before he even begins would be extremely foolish. Way too much mulah stands to be made, way too many eager fans who love Tebow are waiting to fill up seats at Invesco, and way too much QB/Power RB potential is there to throw the baby out with the bath water. Plus, Elway already has a great working relationship with Tebow and he will all but assure Pat that keeping him is the right move. I will go ahead and say that I believe the next coach brought in will be hired with the intention of grooming Tebow, no matter the cost.
If I had the pick between Tebow and Luck...I'd take Luck in a heartbeat.
Just sayin’…. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Dec 8, 2010 7:45 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Its 2 unknowns at the moment....at least you would like to know what we have in one of the unknowns....and if we need to take ANOTHER chance on the 2nd unknown......wow...need to take a breath!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
You were the guy that kept telling me Bradford sucks when a lot of us said he’d be awesome in the NFL.
The angry fans and Woody Paige didn't get McDaniels fired, a lack of improvement, 3-9, several losing streaks, Spygate II, empty seats, too many home losses, several bad blowouts, botched personnel decisions and the endless drama did the trick.
Yep. Am I was wrong. Happy to admit that.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Garbage time QB
Teach,
That is why most of us were upset that McD was not putting Tebow in during the Raider and Chief blow outs. We should have had a decent idea of what Tebow could do by now. Heck, we know he can scramble, we need to know if he can pass in the NFL. Studs will have to give him some time during the AZ game which we should win easily.
Luck will not make it past #1 overall and that won’t be Denver.
I’d be shocked if Tebow doesn’t see a few series in the next few weeks, especially vs Houston and the Fing Dolts.
I think the new coach will try to win vs the Cardinals so he’ll play Orton. Arizona sucks so we might ambush them because our guys are going to be playing for future jobs. The Cards have already mailed it in if you’ve seen them play recently. They also want a Top 5 pick so they can draft their QB of the future.
The angry fans and Woody Paige didn't get McDaniels fired, a lack of improvement, 3-9, several losing streaks, Spygate II, empty seats, too many home losses, several bad blowouts, botched personnel decisions and the endless drama did the trick.
Wow, that is shocking!
I knew Orton was not clutch, but that is horrific. I say let him play the rest of year, pad his stats, then trade him for maximum value. And for godsakes, delete this post before any other NFL team sees the facts!
by xandervan on Dec 7, 2010 9:23 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I wonder how this anaysis would stack up against
the same numbers for Carolina, Buffalo, Arizona, Cincinnati or Detroit?
I'm not interested in spending my free time researching other teams....
Not with a full-time job, night school, and two kids (one of which is less than a year old. lol)
If someone wants to do it though, I am sure it would be really interesting to add to this discussion. I don’t see any of the other QBs on those teams as anything special either, which is why we’re 3-9 and they are too.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I wasn't asking you to!
I’m actually glancing over their team fan blogs to see if anything similar has been posted
With 3 and a half jobs (Job, child, child, and school) I’m impressed you put THIS Bronco analysis together, I’ll let you know if I dig anything up… if you care
I wasn't being rude...or at least I wasn't intending to be rude.
I just thought it would be cool to see if there is other similar info out there…I just won’t be the one to do it. lmao The last 10 days of my life were well spent…unless you ask my wife and kids. lol!!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I can think of plenty of other reasons why they will stick with Orton and that reason basically has gone ignored in favor of the bash o meter
within 7 pts 4th quarter 2009
41-64
4 tds 2 picks
106.8 QBR
Those are Ortons numbers from last year in the 4th quarter within 7 pts
This year he already has 67 attempts which is more attempts than all of last year
The problem is we have had to rely on Ortons arm to keep us in games from the start to finish and after throwing 40 times every game for 5-6 weeks what schemes can we run with no running game that the defenses wont be ready and waiting on them ?
Well done its a lot of slant in this post like you saying that everything must go right for Orton to convert drives into tds but with no running game and the only tds being scored coming from Ortons arm for much of the season how is that "everything going right "
The fact is that nothing has "gone right for us this year " and the only thing keeping us in some of these games was Orton and the passing game and they have had to try and play at a mistake free elite level for us to have a chance no one can perform like that for entire season .
Dont believe me just look at Manning and the Colts as the running game and defense has disappeared more and more pressure is put on the passing game no qb not even Manning can do it EVERY game because it puts him in a position where he has to make every play and that only leads to more and more mistakes .
This entire year to me seems to rest on the fact that in certain situations Josh didnt have the personnel that he needed to run what he needed to counter what the defense was doing to us .
No TE or 3rd down back killed us more than anything else because we didnt have a safety valve
Orton has his issues and can improve across the board but as usual people seem to nitpick whatever they can find negative about the guy and ten over exaggerate it to death
by Hoopforia on Dec 7, 2010 9:26 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
I didn't have a problem with Orton in 2009 and I was quite happy with him as our QB to begin this year, but he has REGRESSED terribly in my opinion.
but with no running game and the only tds being scored coming from Ortons arm for much of the season how is that "everything going right "
I am pretty sure that notion evaporated with Moreno’s 161 yards rushing last week. Orton was his usual self in the clutch.
In any case, this team will never win any championships with him at the helm, so its best we trade him and move on. I just wish I knew more about Tebow, especially with such a high draft pick coming our way. I am not married to Tebow either, make no mistake. I’ll turn on him in two years too if he goes nowhere in that time as Orton did in his two years.
I care about winning. A quarterbacks job is converting third downs…Orton fails in that department and it has cost us our fair share of games this season.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
“Orton was his usual self in the clutch.” (how do you do the neat blue boxes)
In KC Orton stunk the whole day long, had nothing to do with clutch time. If Tebow was any where near ready then would have been the time to put him in. Kyle was not on game and KC had his number even if he were.
LOL so last week is now the bar for the entire season ? Like said the bias is ridiculous Orton had a bad game and you basically tried to spin it as if the running game has been there the entire year
Moreno ran great but he hes not a threat to go to the endzone so they played the pass knowing full well that our backs are not td makers . They knew Moreno would never beat them and it was far more important to take away the passing game .
Orton played terrible last game no doubt but trying to tie everything together tifit your bias iis typical hater stuff thats been going on for well over a year .
A qbs job is to win manageable 3rd down 3rd and 8+ yards and NO QB IN THE LEAGUE CONVERTS THOSE AT A HIGH RATE .
When we play manning if we can get him into a situation where its 3rd and 8+ yards on over 80+ of his 3rd downs we would expect to win that game because the odds are in our favor that he simply wont make a high percentage of those .
You come up with theories like
When Kyle Orton throws a second down incomplete pass, the Broncos convert just 6.25% of their third downs. Yes, SIX POINT TWO FIVE.
but you didnt even give us what distance the 2nd pass was thrown from how many were 2nd and 10 or how many were 2nd and 10+ because of a negative runs ?
I didnt see negative runs listed either which we had quite a few of the first 4-5 games on 1st and 2nd down..
Orton didnt fail on 3rd downs the entire offense fails and its primarily because of what happens on 1st and 2nd down and for most of the year there has ALWAYS BEEN SOMETHING negative going on whether its penalties ,negative runs ,drops sacks etc in key situations .
But per Tims ideology its all Ortons fault .
There is a reason they cal the TE a Qbs security blanket and thats why
Manning has Clark
Brady got two now in back to back drafts
Rivers has Gates
the ATL got there young QB in Ryan Tony Gonzalez a via trade even though they had a stud receiver in white already
Cutler has Olsen
Romo has Whitten
Mcnaab has Cooley
Flaaco has Heap
Thats how the good ones are winning 3rd downs using there TE’s and rbs something we simply didnt even have the personnel to do. .
There was basically a giant hole in the middle of the field from the LOS to about 10 yards out because we didnt have a back or TE who could catch in the middle of the field
According to your post every loss is on Orton because he couldnt compete a 3rd down pass . Everything else was perfect just the pass was poor or he sacked himself you basically pointed every factor back to Orton .
Its obvious you arent gonna sugarcoat anything when it comes to Orton just as its obvious you will take even the smallest negative and try and shine a spotlight on every detail .
Same ol same .
by Hoopforia on Dec 8, 2010 1:10 AM MST up reply actions 4 recs
according to the info above
which I really didn’t even need to see on paper to realize the hollowness that is Kyle Orton, Orton has had more than just one bad game. C’mon now man, you didn’t watch the Raiders, Jaguars, SD, Indy (in which he had 5 redzone attempts to make a difference), Baltimore (in which his only success came in junk time), and San Fran games?
Now all of the sudden this can all be blamed on the fact that Kyle doesn’t have a TE? It would help any QB, I know that, but i’m not buying at the sole reason that Kyle has sucked when it matters most.
This was a greatly insightful post and I think more and more people are seeing Orton’s complete ineptitude to make things happen, A: when the game’s on the line, B: when the tiniest of cracks appears in the system. Kyle Orton is an above average, low interception rate, completely immobile, non athletic statue of a QB, and he can easily be replaced.
Kyle Orton is so slow, awkward, and indecisive, he makes our O-Line look much worse than it really is – I can’t count the times that Kyle had 3 seconds to get rid of the ball, locked onto one well covered guy (Lloyd, his pacifier) and curled into the most awkward, seizure-like, fetal position, that I’ve ever had the misfortune to see, and in return, absolutely giftwrap a sack for the defender.
Many here proclaim that Kyle is a leader. If you’re counting hard work & team mentality, then yes, Kyle is a good leader – however, there’s more to being a leader than hard work and straightened priorities. Kyle has no fire, no umph, no cahones, and no sense of urgency. Too many times I’ve seen his face, blank as the white snow with no emotion, miserably failing to kick his offense in the rear in hopes of making a difference. No more “my bad” Kyle, your decent passing stats don’t even begin to tell the true story of your unispiring, knock kneed, physically puny play.
dude i honestly give up, it's like banging your head against a brick wall
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
I understand why certain people want to trade Tebow
it threatens their only strange hope that Kyle will somehow lead us to the playoffs and beyond. That was something i actually heard today GC – With a running game, Orton will defintely lead us into the playoffs, yearly. We need to recognize this as trolling, and move on to more intellectual discussion like who’s going to be GM/HC, and when is Tebow finally gonna get his shot.
The facts:
- Orton does not make plays when they are needed. Did not this year, nor last year apart from one throw to Marshall.
- He is not an inspired leader.
- Mobility is the major cause for most on his ineptitude. And he bites him on the ass in the worst moments.
I dont need stats (although great article Zap) to see this. HE IS NOT CLUTCH…..EVER!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Ok, 95% of all second down incomplete passes resulted in a failed third down....
So basically it DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE DISTANCE IS. lol
Negative runs resulted in less than 8 failed downs in the first five weeks. So yes, I ignored negligible data such as that because the rabbit hole was deep enough without adding in information that did little to nothing to change the outcome.
By far and away, the biggest reasons for each failed third down is listed. The most common reasons are listed. I do not know what else to say, except sorry for the data being so damning.
As for last week setting the bar….this data is for all 12 games this season. Last week only made the data more solid.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
As I said you completely ignore the point which is that 2nd and longs more often than not turn into 3rd and longs not 3rd and short simple football math there nothing fancy .
Claiming that if a 2nd down pass is incomplete well then a 3rd down is failed to be converted knowing full well that a first down run for us prior to the last 2 games generally produced nothing so its 2nd and long or 3rd and long is not a damning fact but common sense for most football fans .
You didnt "discover anything just something else your trying to slant .
Yes every incomplete pass is Ortons fault and
yet the old coach kept him
the interim coach see this and also keeps him in
and the next new coach may also keep him in
so obviously either they or you dont have a clue …….hymmmmmmmmm
Well, I wont resort to petty insults
but I didn’t say a second and long incomplete pass…it didn’t matter if it was second and inches, Orton failed on that down he would fail on the next down. I stated I didn’t know what it means other than it was a shocking statistic. Take it for what it is and disagree with me, I have my opinion and I’m sorry it offends you so.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
But you can't ignore the same situational numbers from THIS year
within 7 points 4th quarter 2010
33/67
1 TD, 2 INT
58.4 QBR
I don’t bash Orton, I don’t hope he gets injured, and I will still watch games if he plays…. but these are just numbers I can’t look past
Staring at the Sun
we need a spark
and Kyle has about as much spark as a block of balsa wood. i think we’ll see in the coming weeks that Kyle is going to greatly struggle without his play caller there to babysit him.
Great Post Tim
I have always felt and known Orton would never do us any good when the clutch play was needed.
He has never been charged up enough or taken charge of this team for my liking. I hope we move past this experiment and find out if Tebow is this man. If not lets get a QB to lead this team.
Shame, we might just have that guy right now. What the hell?? I don’t care about playing Orton anymore this year and I don’t buy it that the next 4 worthless games are going to improve his value. He is what he is and I am sure every team that wants a QB knows it.
Lets not waste the last 4 games of the year. Lets use it to see if we are on the clock for another QB.
Baffeled with b-------------
Given, Kyle Orton has been sacked too many times. Given, the Denver Broncos offense has been pathetic at converting third downs. Agreed, there is a corrolation and probable cause link between sacks and failure to convert third downs. Not revealed, the distance for each third down attempt or success at different distances. Also not reveiled, the presence or absence of blitzing defender on such sacks or if such blitzer was picked up or not. You do make the assumption that sacks are intrinsicly the fault of the quarterback whereas the general assumption among fans it that sacks are the fault of those assigned to block.
Try this for a more rounded conclusion … we have deep problems with our team that are not limited to defense. Last in the league in rushing until last week probably plays a larger role than the actual sacks. Rookies at center and gaurd, center and tackle, center gaurd and tackle, and then recovering tackles with rookies in the middle likely are a huge contributor as well. Blocking from the TE and RB have not always been steller. Twice I can recall sacks because the Mike was coming fast and Gronk could not cross infront of Orton in time to pick up – that is a more of a formation problem. The problems are much deeper than calling out Orton.
by Flunkie on Dec 7, 2010 9:31 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Re: Down and Distance.
I asked this privately by Brian and I went through and counted all the failed third downs not directly caused by an Orton sack, an Orton 2nd down Incompletion or a Delay of Game penalty and I had only counted EIGHT from Week 1 to halftime of Week 5. That argument has no weight with me.
Orton has been sacked 33 times….18 of which on third down? I sincerely down that is because of o-line problems, maybe 20-25% of the sacks, but no more than that. Watch Orton’s motions…first guy he looks at on third down is covered, he panics and takes far too many sacks.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Also.
Another huge factor is Orton is almost ALWAYS in shotgun on third down…even third and short! It makes no sense, so in that regard the blame fell on McDaniels.
I will not sugarcoat Orton’s failures and I will not blame the offensive line either because why would they do a stand up job on first and second downs, but choke mostly on third down? That is Orton holding onto the ball FOREVER.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
But yes, this teams problems go much deeper than Orton.
However, I’m no longer interested in Orton as our starting QB. Either Tebow is the guy or we need to look hard and long at going after a top QB in 2011.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Hope Tebow works
Even if he does it is important to have an experianced QB behind him. Do you really want Quinn being our insurance policy? The cost of picking up a new QB in 2011 would be too great considering the other needs we have immediately. If Orton can play conservative ball, KM can carry a greater part of the load, and we can pick up greatly needed defensive players we can address any lingering QB problems in 2012.
Unless Orton figures out how to convert third downs, I'm interested only in trades.
He has four more games to figure it out I suppose, but his play is so damned predictable anymore. Ultimately, someone else is in charge. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I dont want Quinn. If Orton wants to be back up...STOKED.....but he will not will a team to a win and is only a GOOD to VERY GOOD QB playing with a lead. He below average when playing from behind.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
I'd still take Orton over half of the starting QBs in the NFL
Browns, Bills, Cards, Panthers, Jags, Titans, Chiefs, Raiders, 49ers, Seahawks, Redskins, Vikings, Bengals, Dolphins…
Ok, that’s not quite half – but I’d be up in the air over Freeman, Sanchez, Bradford, Stafford injury issues or Roethlesburger (character).
I'd take
Big Ben, Freeman, Bradford, Sanchez, Stafford (if he could stay healthy), or even Fitzpatrick at times (he can avoid pressure).
Maybe, maybe not
Kyle is not perfect, and it is not my intent to defend him. I do hope that I might inspire a little less Orton thumping and a little bit more indepth look at the causes behind the sacks rather than the leap of blaming the QB for the whole mess.
Yes, I have seen Kyle take a few sacks because he holds on too long. I have also seen him step up into the pocket and make a completion, seen him extend plays with them slow legs and pick up a completion or rush for much needed yards. This is not a black and white one scapegoat fits all problem
True.
A QB’s job is to pick up third downs though, and he has not gotten the job done. It is time to move on in my opinion…not all would agree with me though, but I wanted to present the facts with my opinion which is what I do. ;-)
I wish someone like Colby would go through and make a video of all 33 sacks that Orton has taken, to see just how the line did on each play.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
That would be a good video to watch
I am not so much in disagreement as to the disappointment in Orton, or the hope that Tebow has developed. I just see no downside to keeping Orton on the roster but I do see huge potential downside if Tebow gets hurt, fails to perform, or heaven forbids catches a cold.
You have a point...I guess all I see is some desperate team offering us a high 2nd rounder.
Then again, how valuable is a theoretical draft pick to Kyle Orton? I don’t know….I’m just sad, this team makes me sad…I don’t like being sad. Having the running back coach become the HC might be just what I need….RUN.THE.BALL.
:)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Pathos
Man, you got me here, Tim. Family with young kids, school, job – and our team doesn’t come through. In the famous words of the unfortunate philosopher Charlie Brown: “Arrggghh!”
Thanks for the great breakdown! My kids would drive my wife crazy with their homework were I to even attempt such a thing.
lol! I just cut an hr and half of sleep per night out of my life...
I actually function better on 6.5 hrs of sleep than I did on 8. :)
Kids are worth it though…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
More disciplined than I...
I managed 4 hours last night, and what – I’m still up?!? And yes, yes they are! Thanks again!
Tim
please don’t recomend that anyone rewatch the sacks on Orton. They are too painful, embarassing, awkward and goofy to rewatch. If someone forced me to rewatch those sacks, IDK if I’d laugh (at how puny he looks), or cry (at how crappy he is for the team).
He does hold it forever
it’s like he just can’t make up his mind and he dances around back there, then it happens. Every freakin time. It’s like having a giant bronze statue that weighs 29850732 pounds play quarterback for you. Yea, I said it. 29850732 pounds. Wrap your head around that!
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
I bet all of those 18 sacks were on Blitzes too.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
4 games is no where near enough time to evaluate Tebow.
Can’t believe how quick people want results here. Elway wasn’t great for a few years, give the guy a fair shake and that’s not 4 games.
Agree 100% about 4 games not being nearly enough time to evaluate Tebow
but it will show us if he is not getting it at all. It can be a big help to see if we are going to need to draft another.
Also, we don’t know who the coach is going to be for next season and all things may be changing again.
Point is what would be so wrong with seeing what we MAY have in Tebow?
4 games is a full preseason
The defenses of our last four opponents arent overwhelming. I believe this is the best time to get Tebow going 2 away 2 at home. Preseason on steroids is what im calling it.
Yeah...but need to start somehwere. Starting Orton when we are out of the race makes no sense. We kno what we have in Orton...no idea about Tebow.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
We just want to see Tebow play
He doesn’t have to start or play every down, we just want to see him get out there and see what he can do. We need to see him throw the ball downfield. At the very least, our sack total should go down and QB scrambling yards should go up.
Man, Zappa,
I’m glad you did the research. We’ve all seen this, and known it. But it is just painful to see it proven in black and white. Ugh. I’m a fan of the guy’s work ethic… but I remember me some Elway, and I MISS feeling comfortable when the game is on the line. It’s the feeling Colts fans must have had until a month ago. It sucks to have that gift, and then not. And it’s so rare.
I really have hope that Tebow can do that for us. I think he will throw interceptions and make sloppy throws. But I believe he will be clutch. I hope he gets a shot, if not now, then next season.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Cutler is more than a tool...hes a frickin HOME DEPOT!
-Boydy
I didn't want to "hope" for Tebow...
I wanted to SEE Tebow, cause the Broncos are drafting high in 2011……oh well.
Thanks for the comment man!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Didn't Tebow have better accuracy and fewer picks than Peyton Manning in college?
I still feel like most of the doubts about Tebow are unfounded, and we’ve yet to really see what he’s capable of.
See this article for an interesting college comparison:
A Tale of Six Quarterbacks
You might fool the [people] in the league office, but you don't fool Jesus. This bush league psyche-out stuff. Laughable, man - ha ha!
by OutOfYourElement on Dec 8, 2010 5:07 PM MST up reply actions
great write up however
these final four games, at least we’ll know that a Top 5 quarterback is where this team will need to go in next years draft.
I hate this line of thinking even if we did, which we wont, start tebow for all four games if he didnt do well thats not a big enough sample size we dont need more qbs that is FOR SURE
Yeah you are right...poor idea presentation there.
Coaches will be able to see how Tebow reacts to mistakes and how he prepares, yada yada…meaning the coaches will get a better idea where Tebow will go in terms of development long term.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I presented it that way with the final 4 game scenerio
and I agree that is not nearly enough time to evaluate a QB. Guess I should have made my point more towards us as fans having a look at Tebow playing in the final 4 games.
I agree that any coach that is worth anything will be able to see if Tebow has the talent and ability to play this game, but we still need to see him in action. I guess that should have been more of my point. There is no reason to play Orton anymore this year (not a hater either) other than padding his stats and possibly adding value for a trade.
Using the same logic as you did, one would have to beieve that the coaches out there have a pretty good idea of Ortons value by watching him play.
Lets just play Tebow and see if we can’t fire this team and fan base up a bit. Moral victory or what ever you want to call a year such as this
by pwsbronco on Dec 7, 2010 9:53 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
We're 3-9
Any stat that is important is going to look bad. When you start to draw conclusions, things can get tautological. You’re looking at stats, and behind those stats are correlations. You’re drawing up one scenario for cause and effect, which is relatively simple, focusing largely on one player. Our O-Line has been porous, recovering from injury. Our running backs have been injured. Our tight ends are either regressing or unproven. There are so many things that have come into play to blow up drives. It’s true that Orton often looks like a deer in the headlights when there’s penetration in the backfield, but he hasn’t been killing drives by himself. Orton is not the only reason, and maybe not the primary reason, why we are 3-9.
I would agree if the stats were similar on other downs....why is Orton so horrible on 3rd down when he is needed the most to execute?
This is why I choose to focus blame on him. A QB’s main job is to pick up third down conversions…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
11 guys have to work together
QB takes the snap – unless some trickery afoot – then three options
1. QB advances the ball on foot
2. QB gives to someone else to advance on foot
3. QB throws ball to someone to advance
In each situation there are others involved. Any one of them not doing their job results in no third down conversion. And don’t forget, there are 11 guys on the otherside working together specifically to prevent us from picking up that third down.
Singling out the QB without a more indepth look is a false argument. Too many assumptions with no supportive evidence.
11 guys do work together on 1st and 2nd down....then one guy doesn't on 3rd down.
The Most Important Guy.
At least that is how I interpreted the data.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Some times yes
Hard to complete an 18 yard strike when you have to unload the ball in 1.2 seconds cuz there is a corner back barreling down on you. Lots of problems on the team. Easy to blame Kyle because he touches the ball every down. A better understanding of why he fails will likely produce a different conclusion – or more accurately show that there is no one conclusion but several different problems that all need to be addressed.
Yes, and this is where the sheer volume comes into play.
I’ll give you 25% out of 154 third down plays…maybe even 33%…but at some point you have to put most of the blame on the QB.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
There are still a number of reasons for a low 3rd down success rate
Tight End – ours don’t get it done
Big WR – Thomas is a rookie. I’d like to see him more on 3rd down next year.
Running game – Be able to blow them off the ball and get the short third downs. We couldn’t do that early in the year at all. Lots of reasons for that (oline play, KM’s injury, lack of a “big back”, new blocking scheme).
Orton isn’t a great clutch guy. But these stats don’t prove he is the problem either, especially with so many other obvious BIG problems.
Orton is the guy throwing all the bounce passes
Not the other ten players
by keb on Dec 7, 2010 10:10 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Unless some other factors could be involved as well, such as the other teams being more likely to blitz on 3rd down, especially when it’s 3rd and long, which it has been because our offense has been out of sync. Our predictability, since our running game wasn’t working for most of the year, probably hasn’t helped in this regard. I’m not saying you have to be wrong, but these 3rd down stats don’t directly indict Orton in my eyes.
I would've agreed with you OR before the game against the Chiefs..
but I would say if you can ever pin a loss on one player it would have been Orton against the Chiefs. I really couldn’t believe what I was watching.
With that being said I still love the man’s work ethic and attitude
I guess in light of the facts it’s time to change my sig….
The QB position is set.
by broncofaninIL on Dec 7, 2010 9:54 PM MST up reply actions
Ya know Tim
I am not exactly shocked to see what you have there stat wise. It’s telling for sure. But, all that being said, and I respect your opinion a great deal, I think perhaps you may read a bit too much into stats. To put the blame on Orton in all the cases you mention is wrong I believe. He may have problems in the clutch but by the time it gets to that point so many other aspects of the game have gone into the toilet it’s ridiculous. I think if the rest of the team was up to par level Orton would be just fine. Sure, we’re gonna trade him and most likely Mr. Tebow will be the future. But I think Orton will go on to have a decent career. How will you feel if he goes to Arizona and makes it into the NFC Championship game? That would make us all a bunch of chumps. I liked Jake Plummer. He was ran out of town more or less, so we could play our qb of the future Cutler. Lets fix the problems we have that are glaring at us. The DLine! I think our offense will be juat fine next season. If we can field a team that has a decent DLIne we stand a great chance next season to be the winning team we used to be. I’m just sayin’. Great post Tim
Go Denver
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
Curious
Awesome work, Tim. It really is great to see this fleshed out in data. I’ve always had the sense that Orton was failing to get the job done in pressure situations. It’d be equally interesting to see his completion percentage when pressured by defenses, as I think DCs have noticed this and brought extra pressure on Orton (not asking YOU to do it, though. You’ve done enough!). I’ve been very happy with Kyle other and always accepted his poor mobility and cautiousness. This analysis make me think otherwise.
After watching the tape, do you have any feel for WHY Orton fails nearly every time after missing a second down completion? That’s a truly alarming statistic, and it’s equally alarming that McD continued to put him in the same formations knowing these failures and limitations.
lol, have I made it plainly clear that I am not interested in stats for a while?
hehehe What can I say, I don’t think I realized how hard it is to deal with stats and compiling them.
I do not have access to video of all the games anyway. A person would have to examine each play live to see if pressure was applied and what the result was. I couldn’t imagine anyone taking that on. Perhaps moving forward, someone could catalog the results for a year end post? I’d certainly rec/tweet/FB like that post!!
Thanks btw.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Oh, in regards to the second question.
I did not examine tape…I WISH I HAD ACCESS to tape or I would have! But no, I had to print out the 40 some odd pages of play-by-play drives stats from NFL.com and examine each drive in detail. Then I inputed the data into an Excel spreadsheet and studied the data more. It was during this process that I began noticing this 2nd down incompletion thing…so it became part of this post because it was so complete in its certainty of failure on 3rd down. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I think the second down thing is more telling than you think
Watching the game on Sunday it seemed to me that KC was putting in their third down defense on second. I remember at least one second down sack in that game. I think I noticed a tendency with McD to look at first down as a throw away, second down was the money down, and third down was a wish. If second down did not work out then the whole series was shot.
Oh, and in regards to McD....
The Shotgun thing really pissed me off near the end of his tenure….3rd and 2 and your in an empty set shotgun formation? W.T.F.????
Anyways, next time I’ll reply in one comment. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Thanks Tim
Fun discussing this with you here and the other thread. It has been a frustrating season. It is not over yet so more frustration is likely to follow. Starting Sunday everything is different – for better or worse. Our hope right now is in the front office, do they find the right combination of managers and coaches. Once we have that part of the picture solved I think the rest will work itself out.
I hope to hope
but I am slowly losing hope.
That probably saddens me more than anything.
I can only keep positive and hope for the best, but I have this nagging doubt in my gut about where this ship is headed.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
It's been fun, but I must drop offline for a bit. Eyes and ass hurt from sitting and staring at this screen all night. lol
be back later no doubt.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
demeanor
Kyle Orton in the Rams game was disturbing, there is no way Tebow would mope with his head down during a game. Players feed off that which is why I wish Josh would of yanked him and let Tim show him how to carry himself when things don’t go your way. When Orton was playing well the team played well, I now understand why we drafted a QB in the first round I just hope it’s the right one.
The only difference between insanity and genius is perception
by Markus2112 on Dec 7, 2010 10:16 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I've seen him acting like that
during more than just the above mentioned, Rams game. Kyle has lost this team and fanbase – time to move on, wish him the best.
you say this like PH is the only one
get a clue bro
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
I must say
This was my impressions of Orton all along, at least since training camp. I was always hoping for Orton to suceed, but there are some things that are needed physically to be a good/great QB. It just is what it is, and Orton doesn’t posses it.
And it is just unreasonable and irrational to believe any football team will play flawless football (all 11 players) in unison, for more than 70% of the game or even season.
I think what has always been suggested and I know Kaptain Kirk puts forth the arguement that it is a team effort which I do believe, but to expect flawless play is I believe to high of an expectation, for any team and for Orton, unless those expectations are meet regularly, then he is an average QB at best.
Tim Great Post Rec'd
Zero or very little escape ability almost 50% of last week TD passes were the direct result of a play making QB escaping pressure before throwing Orton cut you out of 50% of your TD opportunities.
Not to mention it is not exciting God I miss Elway and want Tebow to get a shot
Luck is just this years Locker
oldcoachB
Tim, my friend
Good stuff. Well researched.
It’s TOTALLY cliche, but I love love love the phrase “pass the eye (you can say ‘smell’ too) test”
I haven’t missed a Broncos game in more than 25 years (I’m 33 and count my first real year of fandom as when I was 7 – 1984 – yes I was at the botched divisional playoff game vs the Steelers that year) and have had season tix most of my life. I’ve calculated that I’ve seen well over 1000 gamesof NFL football in my life (at least 3 games per week -sometimes 4 – for 20 weeks a year – for 25 + years) and I can say with 100% certainty that Kyle Orton doesn’t pass the eye test for me.
He’s a guy who needs a lot to go right to have a great play. He’s incredible in play action situations because he has an extra tick or 2 to make up his mind, not to mention that he’s rarely under pressure in those situations. You can make a living like that. But only for a while. Under pressure or when his first read is not there, he tends to throw into the ground or get rid of the ball or take a sack. He’s a QB who’s best in a timing offense. Unfortunately on 3rd downs, timing offenses tend to come up short because there’s blitz disruption or a zone dog or something abit more exotic going down. When Denver really needs yards, we usually run a play where Orton’s reads are up the sideline and throws of the low percentage variety.
I HATE that it seems like KO drops back and has limited choices/possibilities. Its as though they’ve coached him out of making decisions or ‘making a play’ or ‘creating’. There were a few games there where Kyle was moving around in and outside of the pocket and that’s when I felt like the offense was at its best.
I enjoy football much more when my QB can create. I am NOT neccessarily talking about escape-ability, look at Phil Rivers – dude can’t run for sh**, but he creates just fine, Brady too, but if my QB can create, then I feel like the offense has a chance on every play. With KO at the helm, Denver has a guy I like and a player that the other players respect, but they DO NOT have a guy that can make something out of nothing or create a play with things crashing around him or make something happen under bigtime pressure.
Frankly, I’m SURPRISED when Denver makes a big play on 3rd down, especially in the 2nd half when the game is close.
I know I said the same thing that Tim said, but with ZERO facts, but that’s my point – that I don’t need stats to tell me that Kyle Orton is an average QB on an average offense with a creative playcaller. The passing offense was put together by a real technician who knows what to do and when to do it (McD). McD did his best to call the the game the best he could, but he couldn’t win the game from the sidelines or in practice with preparation. The players must do that on the field – and they couldn’t- just like Shanny couldn’t win games from the sidelines with Griese at the helm. You can’t hide a lack of talent behind clever X’s and O’s for more than 4 or 5 games. Eventually the NFL will catch you and eat you alive if you don’t have real talent on your Offense or Defense.
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Go Broncos!
by super7 on Dec 7, 2010 10:42 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
Thanks super7!
You and I had similar tastes at age 7, though I’m a year younger so my fandom began a year later. lol
rec’d
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
great well articulate comments my first game was 1967 with my dad he has passed but my
brothers and I still have the same seats never up graded in honor of my father the greatest Bronco optimist i ever met even when we were terrible and Steve Tensie(no idea how to spell) was throwing it to the other team more than ours he still would scream we’ll get it back..
by the way I do not consider escape ability the ability to scramble Marino, manning and Rivers can’t run at all yet the have great feet and a sense of toming in the pocket to me that is escape ability any tactic that extends the play all i know is Kyle does not have that. See super7 we do have common ground Broncos Forever!!!!!!!!
oldcoachB
I agree 100 percent
I have been watching the Broncos play since the late 60’s and I agree with Super7. I don’t hate Orton, but he doesn’t have “it”, that magical and mysterious factor that can’t be sold or bottled. There is a chance that Tebow has “it”, but until we see him on the field we won’t know. These last four games of the year will be worth watching to see what happens. By the way, since I have lived in Florida for the last 7 years, I have seen every college game that Tebow played and he looks like the read deal. But again, it remains to be seen whether he can cut it in the NFL. I will tell you this though, I would much rather have seen Tebow lined up in the shotgun formation on 3rd and two than Kyle Orton.
Funny abt you being in Fla
My folks moved to Fla about 4 years ago and one fall Saturday a few years ago my mom calls me and wants to talk about Tim Tebow. We are all Denver natives and huge Broncos fans. We’ve all been to Super Bowls and had season tix and signed the ptition to keep the team here back in the bears stadium days, so my mom knows her football (sidenote – my mom’s mom, as she was in her last days at aLutheran Hsptl had one picture taped to the wall in her hospital room. No – not the family or her husband or kids, John Elway) and she says, “ya know, I never thought I’d say this, but this guy Tebow reminds me of John Elway – he’s not the exact same, but he just has this WAY about how he plays that reminds me of John”. I knew about Tebow – but really started watching him then and in many ways he has that magical thing Elway did. Yeah, he’s a different cat that Elway was, but he gives you that feeling that something good can happen on any play that Elway used to.
I don’t know either if he’ll translate to a high level NFL QB, but I’m really pulling for him too. He’s a guy who I WANT TO root for and who I want to be around when my kids are old enough to care about who our QB is because he’s such a good dude and a great story.
Subscribe FREE to my weekly PODcast on iTunes. The Denver broncos Podcast (http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-denver-broncos-podcast/id393488394)
Go Broncos!
Great stuff
Amazing stats and effort.
Orton in the “clutch” is really eye opening, but anyone who watched last weeks game probably saw what they needed to see.
I don’t believe playing Orton is for trade value, or at least it shouldnt be. He is only going to do damage to his trade value if he keeps playing like he did last week. At this point as well, he is what he is, and noone is going to offer a full round higher because of his play in 4 weeks. If I had to guess, I would say that someone may offer a third for him (I have a tough time thinking he will go for a second). It may even be worth it to keep him around a year anyways and just take the compensatory pick.
Someone in the front office, if there is anyone even in there using half of their brain….. they should tell the team to just play Tebow.
I have mentioned before that Tebow will have no impact on who is hired in the offseason, that’s just not how things work.
With that being said, he is going to be on the team for awhile so you might as well get him out there a bit. Plus it will make the games a bit more interesting to watch as a fan.
In the draft I really have my heart set on one of those two interior lineman (Fairley or Dareus), I really want to see some teeth added to the middle of our defense. Especially with the impact that Suh has had for the Lions.
There will be plenty of stories to watch in the coming weeks, hopefully they are far more positive than the recent Broncos stories
Yes....D is still top priority.....just don't want to bust out on a Top 5 DL pick. lol
The draft, for me, is so much less stressful when I do not have to worry about busting out on a really really high pick.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Risk is always there
but if you can get someone anywhere close to Suh’s impact it will be the best thing we have ever done.
One hope is that there will be a rookie wage scale with the new CBA
I agree though, the draft is always a gamble. The idea of gambling with 60 million dollars and the next 3-5 years of your franchise (ask Oakland) is far too stressful for me as well
Yeah, but a guy like Luck is hardly the same as a JaMarcus. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Thank you for putting in all the work to write this up.
Really great article Tim. I’m glad you did that so we can all confirm the truth about Orton. There is a tiny bit of wiggle room for play calling, oline, etc, but Orton isn’t an answer. I was wrong at the beginning of this season to get my hopes up so much on pretty numbers. My review at the end of last season was correct…Orton’s ceiling is too low and he’s already about at it if not there….
Lack of mobility, lack of poise under pressure…two biggest knocks on the guy.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
no doubt
the work you put into this Tim must have been maddening, but it was needed to show the complete truth. After reading this, IDK how anyone can still cling on to the hope that Kyle is the guy of the future. Most franchise QB’s don’t get 2 year contracts, they get resigned for the max.
Kyle Orton definitely has trouble sorting the jersey colors on the other side of the line of scrimmage...
He locks on one and ultimately throws to that guy or takes a sack. Last year he did a better job of reading through a couple of checks then would either make a playor throw it away. This year he either is cockier or was told to make plays rather than waste a play. I have noticed the difference and haven’t heard anyoneon here or elsewhere say anything bout it. I think alot of Kyle’s troubles were injured OLine, injured RBs and playcalling by McD…
Zap, your write-ups are USUALLY stellar . . .
This one was not. There was one factor you seemed to have forgotten . . . or ignored: Down & distance. The Broncos had far more 2nd- and 3rd-and-longs than the average in the league. Could Tebow have done better on those third downs? To say he could would be to say he is better than Peyton Manning because stats were produced to compare Orton against Manning, and several other top QBs, under similar 3rd down situations, and the others had the same problems as did Orton.
You have Orton failing, then, over the same problems others are having . . . top quarterbacks. Now that the Broncos apparently are manufacturing a running game, and the new coach has implied the offense will be more balanced, Orton should find himself in improved situations on 3rd downs. Let’s see how he does not.
All I’m asking is for you to be fair to him, not to furtively root for Tebow’s takeover.
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
I meant to say let's see how he does NOW, not "not."
(Crap, I wish I would learn how to type.)
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Please just stop. Kyle Orton is as good as gone.
Why you continue to fight for him is beyond me because clearly you are one of the few, if not the only one that is still trying to defend Orton. HE SUCKS. Moving on now.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
Based on what?
Bowlen, Ellis and Coach Stud all say that he is the starter. Shortly before his departure McD commented that Tebow and Quinn were tied in their development – Tebow getting the active spot only because he might be used in the special plays. Remembering back to preseason, Quinn looked pretty darn bad. Has Quinn suddenly jumped to the level of being a potential probowler – or has Tebows development been slower than we all hoped.
Those wanting to dump Orton – I get it! – but lets dump him for something better. I really hope that something better is Tim Tebow, but lets let the kid take a few snaps before we start campaigning for his induction into the HOF.
You are correct...if Orton really is that much better than Tebow then so be it.
But I can’t imagine ANY QB being worse on third down right now.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Might need to make this a fan shot
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2008/07/first-down-probability.html
This gives a very good breakdown on the relationship between yardage gained in the early downs and 3rd down conversions. The short running plays on first down, a penalty or dropped pass on second down, or any sack makes converting on third down far more unlikely – just how much more unlikely was quite a shock. Two of your other observations fit in very well with the observations of the link above. When we are clicking we do not reach third down, and that incompletions on second down results in much lower 3rd down conversions. When the offense is working it is cranking off yardage far greater than 5 yards per down – when it falls below 5 yards per down we are suddenly in negative down and distance acording to league wide stats. An incomplete second down pass most likely leaves us with more than 1.5 yards to go for the third – which again is a negative down and distance.
You got the tip of the iceberg, now look at what is under it.
Yeah, but how much blame belongs to the QB for
continued failure on the first two downs? Especially if they are incomplete passes, sacks, or delay of games???
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
That is the question you did not answer
I see a whole team failure on these issues – starting with McDaniels and filtering down to the waterboy. Orton is #2 on that list just behind McD (or now McCoy) but there are a lot of other people there also.
We are a bad team, Tim. Top to bottom. We have good players making bad plays (Champ) and bad players making great plays (quick, someone throw me and example). We are a team with no sense of itself. Until we figure out who we are and how to win it is not productive to attempt to issolate any single cause. We are not a 9-7 team trying to get over the hump and into the playoffs – we are a 3-9 team wandering in the wilderness
by Flunkie on Dec 8, 2010 8:33 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
That pretty well desribes the Broncos
Sad as it is to say. But we just promoted a new wilderness guide.
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
Flunkie....you are totally right.....we had a a semblance of a rudder with McD....but now we are rudderless, with a hole in the boat and getting pushed by the tides of the NFL to the rocks of oblivion. Stoked!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
It's sad to say, Boydy, but maybe being rudderless is better than the rudder we had . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Why don't YOU stop?
If you don’t have anything intelligent to say, please don’t respond. I gave documented reasons. Don’t YOU tell ME not to discuss it. YOU move on.
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
You sound like a child chiming in with glibly stated opinions in order to pretend he's in an argument with somebody at least providing some kind of functional model to make an argument with.
read my posts
they all say the same thing. Is that not what we are all here to do, state opinions? Or do I have the purpose of a blog completely wrong? I am no child, rest assured. I just know a bitter old man when I see one. Read through AZ’s posts. It’s “mental midget” this and “mental midget” that. Sounds like he is the most intelligent one here, that is to say, if you ask him of course. I don’t want to hear about who is chiming in glibly or otherwise. I don’t need to prove anything, my opinion reflects the OP’s. There is no argument, we are right. Orton needs to sit. Need further proof? Read the rest of the article. Good day.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
Down and distance....I did not ignore it.
It just wasn’t relevant because Orton was directly responsible for a majority of the bad down and distances. I counted only 8 instances where a bad third down distance was NOT caused by a sack, 2nd down incomplete pass, or a delay of game(yes lots of delay of games) in the first five weeks of the season.
Who is at fault for three straight incomplete passes?? Or taking a sack on 1st or 2nd down? Or a delay of game penalty? I’ll give you a -4 yard run on first down or two runs for 2 yards or what not, but after five weeks I saw that this wasn’t what was putting the Broncos in bad unconvertible situations….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
What caused the delay?
Wrong personel? Wrong formation? An unexpected defensive look? Delays in getting the play in? A lot of reasons for a delay of game that are not directly Kyles fault – and a bunch that are. Why is a pass incomplete? Kyle forced to throw before he can plant or before the reciever is ready. Reciver drops the ball or runs wrong route. No open reciever. The DB has great coverage or makes great adjustment. Every QB goes through streaks like this once in a while. I am not saying Kyle does not deserve some of the blame – but I an certainly saying it is wrong to give him all of the blame.
You're not considering the extended impact of a failed running game.
We completely abandoned the run numerous times, which obviously increases the proportion of plays Orton is responsible for while reducing their likelihood of success due to increased predictability.
Incomplete passes and sacks on first and second down are a part of the passing game. They also make third down conversions less likely. Kyle Orton has occasionally been sacked and thrown incomplete passes on those downs, but has been a pretty good quarterback on those downs. However, even with an excellent first and second down passing game, you sacrifice the ability to manage down and distance (even a 75% first and second down passer will throw two consecutive incompletions 5% of the time). So relying on the passing game disproportionally will lead to longer third down situations and less third down success. The benefit is the increased possibility of the big play in the passing game (and of course the Broncos haven’t had much choice on the ground with a pretty putrid rushing attack).
To say that the incompletions thrown by Orton setting up a third and long are “Orton’s fault” misconstrues the whole deal, because the Broncos have chosen (been forced to?) sacrifice managing down and distance through balanced play calling for the increased big play threat of the pass on first and second down.
Additionally, to the extent that you blame Orton for creating third and long situations through incomplete passes, an analysis of third down fails to credit him for first downs converted without ever reaching a third down. Essentially, you are shunting the blame for the downside of a pass-happy offense on Orton (poor third down conversion rates brought about by sacrificing the team’s ability to manage down and distance) without crediting him for the benefits (opportunities to create big plays on first and second downs)
I'm not sure if I made this clear enough
but my bottom line is I think you are saying the events that set up third and long situations are Orton’s fault despite those events being part and parcel of the passing game, not specific to Orton.
Tim, I don't know how you could possibly feel that Orton was responsible for most of the down and distance.
Is Orton’s fault they could not run? Is Orton the only one in the league who gets sacked? Is he responsible for a porous O-line? I’ll allow that Orton hung onto the ball too long a couple times, and a couple delays were on him. But the primary reason for the 2nd- and 3rd-in-longs was NO running game (mixed in with penalties also by others). Period.
But you were talking exclusively about 3rd down conversions. What do 1st and 2nd down have to do with that? On 3rd down, Orton was looking at 8+ yards most of the time. If you want to discuss the other two downs, then let’s . . . but as long as you are concentrating on 3rd down conversions, we need to do just that, else we are not discussing the issue intelligently.
The fact is, NO quarterback is very successful on 3rd and 8+ yards. That has been documented. Since the running game is now picking up, and the new regime is talking about a more balanced attack, let’s see how Orton does on 3rd downs under NORMAL conditions. And then critique . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Right,
and throw out last week’s game, which was a bad game from Orton. I’m not being sarcastic. All players have bad games.
So an incomplete pass on 2nd down causing a 3rd and 8 is not even partly Ortons fault?
That is my argument…the 2nd down incomplete pass is the problem.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
An incomplete pass on 2nd down resulting in a 3rd and 8
means we gained only two yards (presumably on a running play) on 1st down. That’s the problem.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
It's all about the down and distance!
Your article is a classic cherrypick to spin a tale. Due to playcalling and the complete lack of a running game, the team has been faced with many 3rd and longs this season. The DP took a look at this issue about one week ago:
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_16736759
From the article:
“So while it’s a quarterback’s universe in football, no quarterback, even a future Hall of Fame quarterback such as Manning, can overcome an offense that can’t run the ball and a defense that can’t stop anybody.
So it shouldn’t be shocking that Orton hasn’t done well on third down. No quarterback on a team with the 31st-ranked running game and the 32nd-ranked scoring defense is going to look good on third down.
There’s too much lost field position, too many deficits on the scoreboard. The defense knows what you’re going to do and is waiting for it.
Against the Rams, the Broncos were never in a third-down play that was shorter than third-and-8. Including penalty snaps, the Broncos were in third-and-8 twice, third-and-10 four times, third-and-12 once, third-and-15 once, third-and-16 once and third-and-17
Few quarterbacks would have much success with that. Against the Chargers, including penalty snaps, the Broncos were in nine situations of third-and-8 or worse, including three plays of at least third-and-20.
It’s true that Orton hasn’t been terrific on third down this season. But that’s because in his situations, with the set of circumstances surrounding him, few who play his position could be terrific”
It’s time to move on from your crusade against Kyle Orton. McD, our new HC, and management have spoken. They don’t agree with your opinion.
Kyle Orton is our starting QB. If there is a change down the road, and I highly doubt there will be, that will be up to the new HC/OC.
the bigger question mark now that McDaniels has been fired, is what will the team do with Tim Tebow.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news;ylt=AjbNm357WKm3bPsAojQ2.85nYcB?slug=jc-tebowmcdaniels120610
Many football experts outside of Denver believe that Tebow probably will either get traded or be converted to say a TE. The idea of him as a tight end is very appealing!
by rocko1 on Dec 8, 2010 3:37 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
picture this
I WOULD RATHER AN ACTUAL TIGHT END QUARTERBACK OUR TEAM BEFORE I WOULD EVER WANT ORTON BACK UNDER CENTER.
The TE is bound to be able to convert at least one pass on third down.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
LMFAO
it’s getting borderline stalker-like, the manlove for Orton. You would think that he’s either a Beatle, Elvis, or the second coming of John Elway. It boggles my mind, as I’m sure it does yours. There are literally like three people left who are clinging onto Orton like life support right now, even at the risk of trading our 1st round, possible franchise QB – tell me how unbiased that is?
Certain people are trying to dig up as much MSM crap on Tebow that they can, and in return, are exposing themselves as completely biased, unreasonable, and just downright SILLY. If you want hollow passing stats, look to the Jon Kitna led Lions – me, I’m concerned with winning and scrapping that which has proven itself, time and time again, as incapable.
This is all getting way too weird for my liking.
Well it looks like Studes likes him enough to start him
that makes 4
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
My point is
maybe they know something you don’t. I’m just sayin’
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
And maybe they dont...track record of the team, the front office and coaches does not inspire ANY confidence in their decision making ability.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Do you think they would be coaching at that level if they didn't have some sort of clue?
Mind you they did fire McD. But…
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
BTW I'm only trying to stay objective.
I want my team to win. It’s difficult, at best, to understand the decision making they are useing to run this team.
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
All good mate...my comment was more tongue in cheek...trying to keep things light.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Is man-love for Orton worse than man-hate for Orton?
That’s what I have seen all along from many posters. And then they turn around and accuse of man-love.
Let’s discuss ISSUES here! I’m getting tired of being personally attacked because my opinion differs.
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Please flag that crap.
I’ve noticed a couple guys jump your bones because of your stance on things in this thread. Flag it and notify John via email, he respects people who act responsible – like yourself – but he can read every comment either.
My post here isn’t meant to open the threads up for a bunch of “I told you so” crap. This is just my opinion based on the facts I researched. I am biased because my eyes are so tired of watching Orton fail time after time. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
what is truly mind boggling
is that these folks are watching the SAME guy we have been. The vast majority of people now seem to think that Orton is not the answer. We were way out in front on this. It is what it is.
Now, the handful that’s left that are trying to keep him in there are grasping at every possible stat that makes him look good. Truth is, the stats that make him look worse than bad (this thread..) are clearly more abundant. Stats can be manipulated either way. It’s never was about the stats for me, and it never will be.
The guy just doesn’t have it. Not when it matters. I don’t need a PhD to figure that out. I have seen enough to say that every single Bears fan I ever spoke to was 100% right about Orton. It was my bright eyed optimism that kept me also at one time trying to look for the silver lining with Orton. Those days are history, I have seen more than enough of Kyle Orton.
Then there is the backasswards logic of the whole deal.
We have a first round pick, one of the most decorated college players ever (it’s college, but hey, stats matter, right?) sitting on the bench.
I would understand not wanting to switch Orton if we didn’t have someone like Tebow to go to.
But we do. Look at St. Louis and Atlanta. Even Tampa. Tebow may not be the pure pocket passer they are, but he may not need to be. Nobody knows. It would be a travesty to never find out.
Keep supporting Orton if 3-9 and no chance is what you’re in to. I’m sure as hell not.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
I'm neither sold on Orton nor convinced he's not a good QB,
but I will fight people who use shoddy arguments to impugn his ability as an NFL QB because I love 2 things:
— Higher Learning: There actually is a system for argumentation and using facts, which was first laid out by Aristotle, if I’m not mistaken. A good argument is almost as good as objectivity. Opinion is like bias, generally without foundation, unsupported; we all have them, but that doesn’t mean important decisions should be made based off them. And opinions are not arguments, and I will fight anyone who presents them as being the same because that is promoting ignorance.
— Broncos: We’ve seen that the general public can influence the decisions of our organization. I love the Broncos, and I don’t want to see them torn down because time after time people use faulty argumentation to create an urgent case for a new QB or Head Coach. The guy who hasn’t failed us yet is always more attractive, but it’s an immature mindset to always clamor for the new guy, and it’s detrimental to our team. I will fight anyone who stands to harm the Broncos by using bad argumentation to exploit people’s desire to see a new QB.
Speaking of 3 people, there are probably 3 people in the nation who actually fit the picture you describe of having an Elvis-level obsession with Orton. Orton is about as unsexy a QB as there is, and that pretty much contributes to making it so easy to mentally push him aside for a new Wonder Boy. But Orton is proven. He has stats. He’s not God, not Manning, no. But he’s the bird in hand at this point. He has skills that don’t involve juking and jiving, so they’re not as easy to see on the field as the skills of someone like Michael Vick. But he is an intelligent and capable quarterback. Because he’s our QB, there’s a tendency to take that for granted. But there aren’t that many QBs like Orton in the league. Carolina would be much better off right now if they had Orton, just as one for instance.
keep fightin then bro
you are just spinning your wheels. I already said I agree with the OP. Would Aristotle think it makes sense to type up an entirely new post saying and rehashing the EXACT same things? I think not. Tim has already done the leg work. Nuff said. Not sure what else exactly you are getting at, or what point you are trying to make.
“Carolina would be much better off right now if they had Orton, just as one for instance.” to this I say:
“— Higher Learning: There actually is a system for argumentation and using facts, which was first laid out by Aristotle, if I’m not mistaken. A good argument is almost as good as objectivity. Opinion is like bias, generally without foundation, unsupported; we all have them, but that doesn’t mean important decisions should be made based off them. And opinions are not arguments, and I will fight anyone who presents them as being the same because that is promoting ignorance.”
Care to back up the last line in your diatribe with facts? lol gotcha
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
HAHAHAHA.....Tebow cant be any worse than Orton. lets see what the kid has.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
He left out three words.
He cant be any worse than Orton on THIRD DOWNS.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Not that I wouldn't mind seeing Tebow run a few drives
I would like it, but apparently the coach still believes enough in Orton to start him.What does that tell you? He’s less informed than you? I don’t think so. Must be a reason eh?
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
You Tebow guys are starting to panic!
Most of you were head over heals in love with McD. Now he’s gone and Tebow is now a big question mark. Instead of looking at the positives about KO, you are taking out your frustrations on the starting QB. This craziness all began the night of the draft. I’ve never seen a group get swayed so easily over a college QB that was rated very poorly in the draft. We will all just have to wait and see what the new coaching staff does. A top 10 QB, who keeps improving every year and will play better on a better team VS a QB out of Florida(they have never produced a good NFL QB), who has not played in the NFL and was very poorly rated coming into the draft. My money is on the logical choice. Kyle Orton!
I think the point of this post/thread is not about Tebow. Orton isn’t the guy for the Broncos futture.
Tebow might be the guy or he might not be. If he isn’t then we need to draft the guy in April.
Either way, Orton is not the franchise QB.
If our new coach goes with Orton, so be it, but I think a lot of fans will not have confidence in Orton. He hasn’t done it in the clutch regardless of all the extenuating circumstances.
rocko's comment
is all the Orton guys have left
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
See my previous reply. I did not ignore it, it just was not RELEVANT.
If Orton is the main cause for bad down and distances then why shouldn’t he be blamed for not converting bad down and distance?
I suppose I’ll have to go back through and lay out the facts on that one too….just to close every single door that is opened to explain away Orton’s failures. Sigh…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
An error in logical argument
You are starting with a premis and then attempting to build support for it. I do understand the frustration, but if you put away the strong bias you would see that your supporting facts can just as easily point to a totally different conclusion.
You did all that work to compile the stats then ruined if with all your biased "analysis"
Where is the comparison to other teams/quarterbacks or at least league average? These numbers are useless in a vacuum.
Why don’t you say the offense did poorly in these situations and not single out one player? You mentioned Orton 21 times and the offense in general just once.
No mention of distances either, this makes a big difference.
We all know you’re biased on this issue from your previous posts but you kill your credibility when you lay it on so thick. You would have been better off stating your findings then making done your “indictment on Kyle Orton, Tim Tebow is our Savior” point once in a conclusion paragraph rather than stating it 21 times throughout the post.
and once more...
did you happen to watch the last game? you are telling me THAT is what you want quarterbacking and leading our team? are you freakin kidding me? what is wrong with some of you.. honest to god i think i am living in fu**ing bizarro world.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
no shiite
By the sounds of it, Orton has led our team to 5 Superbowl wins, is a 29 time MVP, and is the best QB ever to lead the Broncos for 20 years. WHAT HAS HE DONE TO WARRANT THIS SILLYNESS!?!?!?!?!? Please don’t explain, you’ll just end up embarassing yourself and our integrity.
You two's personal attacks and inability to have a calm rational discussion are what is wrong with this site.
I’m not arguing that with the basic content of the article, I just think the piling on and assigning sole blame to one player is going to far. The tone of the article is unbecoming of a front page writer IMO. The tone of your comments is certainly unbecoming of what this site should be.
by admill on Dec 8, 2010 6:39 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Can't please them all
I’m sure the author had much more in mind than pleasing one of four Orton supporters. The truth is out, and it’s not my fault if people embarrass themsleves trying to make excuses. Get mad at yourself bud.
The tone of this article was discovery & truth – something that Orton supporters want to stay hidden, apparently even to the detriment of the club.
It just is what it is at this point.
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
exactly hes just the latest version of the same poster he said truth even though a very good much of it is opinion as long as its knocking Orton he will agree with it
Unless you say Orton sucks you are a Orton lover no matter how ridiculous the argument you are disagreeing with
It's a blog on the interwebz, maybe you can lighten up a little?
Even if i don’t agree with you, I’m not going to stoop to your level. If it wasn’t for everyone that comes here, this site wouldn’t be as awesome as it is. What do you want? A bunch of ninny’s sitting around a sewing circle talking about what happened on Main Street over the weekend? No thanks. It’s your holier than thou attitude is what’s unbecoming. You can step down off your soap box now.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
Blue steel, Letigre......they are all the same look. IS EVERYONE ON CRAZY PILLS AROUND HERE????
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Admill...come on man....
Its not a black and white things.
i think here is the best way to decipher it:
ANyone who watches football knows Orton is not the answer. he has not made ANY clutch plays this year and only one last year. The problem is we dont know if Tebow is the answer either.
HOW MUCH SENSE DOES IT MAKE TO PLAY A GUY WE KNOW AINT THE ANSWER? It makes no sense.
What makes sense:
PLAY OUR 1ST ROUND QB AND SEE WHAT THE KID HAS SO WE CAN MAKE SOME PLANS MOVING FORWARD.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Orton is not the answer to what ?
Are some of you talking SB ? playoffs ? please thats just delusional and right now we arent in position talent wise to start dumping the players who are actually performing the best EVERY year.
If Ortons play is the BEST on this team....we are in more trouble than I thought Hoop.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Hopp...I DONT want to hear the truth...hahaha...yeah man, I dont like Ellis...seems clueless. Bowlen is not a top flight owner any more our our team is looking at sore and sorry next decade....and i hate saying that.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Thanks. Fortunately I already have a paid full time job.
And full time night school and a full time family. I am a Bronco fan and I’m not going to spend ten days on my team and then spend another ten days on other teams.
Once again, distance was an Orton issue more than an offense issue, but Ia m beginning to regret not including that data. I’m a blogger, so my bias will always be in my opinion posts – that is the perk of writing. :)
If you want to counter my bias with other facts, I encourage you to examine the down and distance of every single third down (about 154 or so through Week 12) and try to pin the reasons for bad down and distance on someone other than Orton. Also, check the 3rd and short failures too…PLENTY of those as well.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
silence....
I'm betting Marshall is sitting in Miami thinking "That could have been me." Instead, Tyler Thigpen is throwing him passes. - Nick Cast
by Jay Fin Anderson on Dec 8, 2010 8:49 AM MST up reply actions
I would love
to see a countering article that examines this. Always like to see all sides.
So why don’t any of the rock-throwers step up to that task, I wonder?
Easier to just lob rocks than to actually put the data together, I suspect.
Me, I’ll just go with what I see. When it’s time to step up and make a play, Orton doesn’t. Wish it was different, but it isn’t. Love the guy and his attitude, but he just doesn’t make that play when you need it, sadly. Is Tebow the answer? Not a clue, but I feel like I already know what the team has in Orton, and I’d like to see what the kid has.
It’s not about Tebow Love or Orton Hate- it’s about wanting to see what the team has in Tebow. Seems pretty simple to me, but maybe that’s just me.
by AllBroncsallday on Dec 8, 2010 10:31 AM MST up reply actions
Orton does not inspire confidence during
clutch time! When Elway (or even Cutler) got the ball late in the fourth quarter and we had a chance to tie or win the game, I always felt like it would happen. When Orton has the ball, I just sit on the couch already defeated with a sad face. He simply can not get it done when we have to have it. Sorry folks, nothing against him personally, but I just dont have the confidence in Orton to take us down the field and score when we have to have it. Can Tebow do it? No one will know until he actually gets a chance to play. McD waited too long to reveal his possible ace in the hole and paid the price. Should have played Tebow in the Raider and KC blowouts. No sympathy here………. By the way, for those of you that are stats freaks, here is a good site (I linked it straight to Ortons situational stats).
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7282/splits;_ylt=AgQeQxomJfrhCdH1892KOcn.uLYF
+2,000
you take the words out of mouth – “When Orton has the ball, I just sit on the couch already defeated with a sad face.”
so true. I want to be excited to watch a Bronco QB again, no matter who that is.
Excellent post Tim
It really shows where Denver has lost its magic. I’m wondering if its not the wide receivers. Orton is definately better in play action but when he is in the shotgun and the defense doesn’t quite have to worry about the run Orton is a lot more ineffective. I’m thinking the adjustment Kansas City made was that they ignored the play action and played as though Denver was going to throw. Could it be that Denver’s receivers are too poor at getting open when there is no play action?
My projections Denver 11-5, San Diego 10-6, Oakland 9-7, Kansas City 7-9
Revised after 9 games. Denver 8-8, San Diego 8-8, Oakland 8-8, Kansas City 8-8
Play Action is exactly what Orton needs in my opinion
which is why I cannot figure out why McD’s play calling was so frustratingly predictable with the empty set shotgun formations — even during the KC game when the run game was beasting!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
See logical argument above
A perfect example. Here you give Kyle a pass and blame it on McD play calling. I think that other than a few select drives that McD’s play calling was very predictable most of the time. KC studied the film and made the choice that Kyle and Lloyd were dangerous – KM was not. They challenged McDaniels to stick with KM and beat them on the ground. Everything they had was assigned to stopping Lloyd from catching the ball or to hurry Orton into bad throws. It worked. McDaniels did not have the patience or faith it takes to pound the rock. When we neared the endzone it was back to the air – which was exactly what the KC game plan predicted.
Well, playcalling is part of the equation, but at some point the QB needs to execute.
Orton has not executed well at all.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
At many points he does
And when he does we don’t face third down. There are not any QBs that complete every pass. Cassel was AFC player of the month, he likewise did very little on Sunday. Elway never fully reached his stride until Shanny put the other pieces of the puzzle in place for him. I do recall more than one failed fourth quarter come back – fortunately he made more than his fair share, but the point is that when he made them it was a team effort inspired by Elway. Seldom did he just take off an run for a TD.
WR-QB_Scheme
I agree with you Tim something is wrong on 3rd down but I want to point out that Lloyd only catches 50% passes thrown to him. Gaffney 61% and Royal 60%. Compare that to Marshall, who has been ripped because of the his low percentage, 58%. So is that QB, WR, or scheme. one thing is obvious that Denver doesn’t have a go to receiver. 26% of all passes is thrown to a guy that is 50/50 as to whether he’ll catch it or not.
My projections Denver 11-5, San Diego 10-6, Oakland 9-7, Kansas City 7-9
Revised after 9 games. Denver 8-8, San Diego 8-8, Oakland 8-8, Kansas City 8-8
I think it’s relatively clear during games that (1) Orton will throw to Lloyd when hes well covered and (2) Lloyd’s targets are disproportionally high-risk deep balls (how many 25+ yd catches does he have this year?)
What this team needs is a true over-the-middle receiver, either a slot guy or a tight end. Oh, and a new defense. And maybe a new quarterback. Whatever.
Exactly
57 of Lloyds 60 catches has been for 1st downs and 20 or 33% has been for 20 yards or more. So what Denver needs is a Stokley that Lloyd can spread the field and Stokes can work underneith. If they do that Lloyd would get less passes but a higher percentage of catches and the Stokley clone would have a high percentage of catches 70% area but not as many yards. Theoretically this should make 3rd downs easier and give Denver a better 3rd down percentage.
My projections Denver 11-5, San Diego 10-6, Oakland 9-7, Kansas City 7-9
Revised after 9 games. Denver 8-8, San Diego 8-8, Oakland 8-8, Kansas City 8-8
how fitting
that i got to be rec #10
This ship sailed for me a long time ago. All these stats did was prove everything I already thought. There have been a few others that have been adamant as well, namely Boydy and Palehorse78.
I’m glad “we” all see this now, I just wish the front office would get the freaking memo.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
You, Boydy, and myself
have seenthis coming from a mile away, and this post, albeit a great one, showed me nothing I didn’t already know. I still rec’d it though for hard work, a passion for the truth, and the fact that it exposes a weakness that was once believed to be ELITE – Bradylike. Thank God i’m not that gullible.
I bet now
people are gonna think Orton will somehow morph into some other quarterback now that McD is gone. Hello – it’s the same guy.
If you want to continue setting our team back further and further by the second, by all means, continue playing Orton.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
if anything
Kyle is going to regress without McD’s babysitting. I believe that KC showed the blueprint in which to totally shut Orton down, to the rest of the league – much like the Ravens did last year. Our O-Line is being disgraced by the awkwardness that is Neckbeard’s Ghost. I hope and pray that Kyle’s imminent trade doesn’t turn into the crazy Cutler-love fiasco that ensued his own trade. One good thing about that, the Cutler trade made thousands of fans mad – the Orton trade will make literally three people mad (I have to take a moment to laugh about this fact as it is truly KOOKY). Three stubborn people are much easier to ignore than thousands.
ROTFL at the sillyness of it all. If I ddn’t laugh, I’d probably start munching on rusty razorblades as a way to cope with my misunderstanding of the trade Tebow crowd.
Exactly. I expect KO to regress now that McDaniels is not here to game plan.
Our 3rd down conversion rate can’t stay at 5-33 or whatever it is right now so that will go up (regression to the mean). But our scoring and KO’s passing yards will not.
I don't agree
There is a different guy calling the plays, the defenses can’t gameplan those subtle changes. Maybe Denver will work underneith a little more. last year they didn’t go long enough and this year they are going long too much. KO has gotten better since he came to Denver. Because of the system? A little but don’t think he hasn’t progressed as an inividual QB either.
My projections Denver 11-5, San Diego 10-6, Oakland 9-7, Kansas City 7-9
Revised after 9 games. Denver 8-8, San Diego 8-8, Oakland 8-8, Kansas City 8-8
It'd be funny if he did though
What would everone say if he starts to perform? Ah it was all McD’s fault!
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
If he starts to perform
I will stand behind him like no other – like I once proudly did (last year, this offseason).
I can't believe Orton is being blamed for our season
Besides Lloyd who else has had a good season on our team, Um UM, oh probably no one. Teams win and lose together. The O-line has gotten Orton destroyed most of the year, receivers have dropped passes, and yes Orton has missed some throws. The Defense is terrible. All in all we haven’t played well, and that has lost us games. Kyle Orton is not John Elway, but neither is Tim Tebow.
If you watched the games
You would know better than to blame the season on Orton. This is ignorant. I’m not saying Orton is the future of the broncos, and im not saying that that he doesn’t deserve some of the blame, but this is just silly, go back and watch the game film.
Thats the point for many of us. Orton was hand picked by McD....and even then...was never the future...
With McD gone, he has lost even more stock.
I have watched game film (its been hard, trust me)….and there are lost fo reasons for our lack of 3rd down success. Its not all Orton, but lot of it is.
The KC game last weekend was the straw for me. We were only down by a maximum of 7 points….and Orton did not even sniff getting it done.
We have our proposed future sitting on the bench. He needs some seasoning…we need to at least get a snap shot of what tebow is…becuase we know orton wont be the starter next season.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
I thought Orton was part of a trade for Cutler
Didn’t he come with the deal. It was more about apeasing baby Cutler.
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
Kind of
The deal was made with Chicago because Orton was specifically included in it- in that sense, he was hand-picked by McD.
by AllBroncsallday on Dec 8, 2010 10:38 AM MST up reply actions
At that point
It was down to Washington or Chicago. McD didn’t want Campbell so it was down to Orton or Quinn. Of those three QB’s who would you rather have. McD made an excellent choice.
My projections Denver 11-5, San Diego 10-6, Oakland 9-7, Kansas City 7-9
Revised after 9 games. Denver 8-8, San Diego 8-8, Oakland 8-8, Kansas City 8-8
Handpicked?
He was the available of the 3 or so possibilities. I wouldn’t call that handpicked.
My projections Denver 11-5, San Diego 10-6, Oakland 9-7, Kansas City 7-9
Revised after 9 games. Denver 8-8, San Diego 8-8, Oakland 8-8, Kansas City 8-8
Come on
Do you really think the guy hasn’t watched the games? Disagree, but don’t be insulting.
by AllBroncsallday on Dec 8, 2010 10:37 AM MST up reply actions
I don't believe
Anyone is “blaming” Orton, face it football is a team sport but the QB position is the most important position on the team, if you have a good one you can hide alot of other “team” deficiencies if you have a bad one those deficiencies can be exasorbated.
This is more of an indictment of Orton at the QB position and not that he is the sole owner of a bad broncos season.
No you cant hide anything is Manning "hiding" the Colts deficiencies ? LOL heck no they had accumulated enough talent around Manning didnt have to carry them from the kickoff to the horn
and we are seeing that as that talent is being depleted due to injuries and under-performing that while Mannings trying to pick up the slack by passing but its leaving no room for even one error and one mistake is hurting them .
The league is too good now no one person can carry a team .
Never said
One player can carry a team, but you must admit Hoopforia, one player can substainially improve a teams chances of winning, sure every team has injuries some more than others.
And so you are trying to tell me that without Manning Indianapolis would have the same success with Orton or a similiar QB at the helm, or for that matter Brady, Vick etc.
Really Hoopforia
Tebow
I want to know what the kids got. If we have a chance at a guy like Luck or Locker, and we don’t know what we have in Tebow, how could we pass up drafting them. I also dont want us to waste a pick and money on a pick like that if Tebow is actually good. They could go get something else like idk some defensive help. You just look at Orton coming out to play in those “clutch” situations and he looks like a loser, im sorry he does, it looks like he doesnt think they will score. no passion no fire. Tebow definitely has the passion and the fire, but we need to know if he has the skill
preachin to the choir man
this whole scenario seems to make total sense to me. why go in to next year WONDERING if you need a quarterback. absolutely ludicrous. maybe mcd did set the team back a few years, but the decisions that are STILL being made are going to continue to push us even further back. this is the single most frustrating part of it.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
Good analysis.
I consider myself someone who has been an Orton apologist up to this point, but that’s more due to the fact that his overall game has improved and there has been no better option so to me at least, the question of replacing him seemed pointless to consider.
However, when you consider the state this team is in right now, we need to know what we’ve got so we have a better idea of how to position ourselves for the draft.
I think all options should be on the table. We’re not going to the playoffs, we’re not going to win the division. We need to be taking stock and auditing ourselves as an organization from top to bottom these last games.
Very good food for thought, all of this.
Turn out the lights....the party's over...
I think this speaks to some of the limitations of the pass - centric shotgun approach
Running a predominance of passing plays out of the shotgun can certainly be effective, but I think some of this data points to the fact that it’s effectiveness can be very limited when you don’t have a truly excellent QB running the system. A couple of things really jumped out at me:
When Kyle Orton throws a second down incomplete pass, the Broncos convert just 6.25% of their third downs. Yes, SIX POINT TWO FIVE.
and
The unwillingness to run the ball during close games continues to vex me.
The first stat has been hugely frustrating. It really seems like, if the broncos have good first down, then they’re OK. but if not, and they’ve got a 2nd and long, things spiral downward too quickly. McD won’t call a run on 2nd and long, and that leaves the O in an obvious passing situation. Opposing D’s seem to have figured out how to answer our passing game by pressuring the QB and playing the WR’s agressively. So the 2nd and longs tend to be incompletion’s, leaving us with 3rd and longs (penalties have also played a role in this). There are some QB’s that can complete 3rd and longs when the D knows they’re throwing on a consistent basis – Brees, Manning, Brady, Phillips (it pains me to say it, but we all know it’s true). Orton’s simply not one of them. It seems to me that McD’s system is a little too “Feast of Famine” when things are going well, the offense can just kill the other team. when things are going poorly… well, we all know the answer to that.
The second thought I had was that, if we could run more passing plays from under center, the running game would have more options – opposing defenses would have a harder time guessing if the play was running vs passing, and there would be more different runs that could be used. it’s kinda the opposite of the play-action pass – run some more passing plays from under center so the D knows that you don’t only pass from the shotgun, and they won’t be able to crowd the line too much when you do run. Knowson’s really been developing as a running back now that he’s healthy, and I’d like to give him the opportunity to show he can carry the offense from time to time, wear down Defenses, and help control the pace of the game (something the Bronco’s offense hasn’t done consistently in several years, despite their statistical appearance to the otherwise)
Belief is accepting something because you’ve been convinced to do so, whether you like it or not. Faith is accepting something because you want to accept it.
by Hercules Rockefeller on Dec 8, 2010 7:38 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd just for your title
TOO much shotgun!
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
well said Herc I think what also gets ignored is the fact that we were playing from behind with the passing game being our only source of points especially the first half of the season with the injuries to the line early as well as the running game .
Orton ,Brees ,Manning,Brady,Rivers,Rodgers
Top is 3rd and 8-10 attempts -completions
bottom is 3rd and 11+ attempts-completions
Orton
14-28
14-24
Brees
19-31
16-21
Brady
12-20
12-23
Manning
24-39
8-16
Rodgers
10-20
14-18
Rivers
12-24
15-29
Being able to complete the pass on third and long is not the same as converting, which is the measure of the QB (and the offense)
Could you post the 1st down conversion percentage for each QB in these situations?
Well
Playing from behind also means not sustaining drives and turning them into points. Agreed.
So, Orton is a large part of that.
AWESOME post!
I haven’t had a chance to really digest all the numbers, because of this whole pesky “job” situation. However, it’s clear you put a lot of time and work into this one, Zappa. To me, THIS is the kind of work that makes MHR the place it is. Great work, sir!
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Good post Tim
I’m not sure that this evidence is totally compelling that Orton is the biggest problem on our team, but I agree that we should move in a different direction. When the Cutler trade went down, I recall Bears fans saying that Orton wouldn’t lose games for us, but he wouldn’t win them either. This has been a common theme with Orton the whole time. He doesn’t have spark, he doesn’t pass the “eye test”, he is not a leader, he doesn’t come through in the clutch.
I believe Orton has put together a pretty good season, and has been a big reason we have been competitive in most of these games, but we are 3-9 and have looked terrible for much of the season. I think playcalling is another big factor, but I also believe the playcalling was what it was to put Orton in the best possible position to succeed within his skillset. In the KC game, I recall an Orton throwaway that highlights the feeling that he can’t produce the effort I want to see from a qb to go out and win a game on his own. It may have been a terrible pass and not a throwaway to avoid a sack, but to me it seemed to be that he was conceding defeat instead of trying to make something happen. I just don’t believe Orton has the tools to make things happen in big games or situations.
I believe we do need a spark and a leader that will take us to a new level. From everything I have heard, Tebow has this spark and leadership quality. I hope he gets a chance to show us what he’s got.
By the way, thanks for the time you put into this post. I also have two kids and a job and I know that time is probably not a luxury you have.
No way is Orton the biggest problem....man, we have WAY bigger problems that that. It is just we may have a solution sitting on the bench. At least this problem has a hope of a solution...unlike defense and the general direction of the team!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
I agree Boydy
there is no solution to this season now, so lets see what we have on the bench
Fantastic post Zappa, confirms what we all knew.
In addition; I believe Orton’s tendency to lock on to one receiver until he feels pressure and then look for the safest way to the ground are what drives these 3rd down numbers. “The Film Don’t Lie” is a popular phrase and if you watch much tape on KO you see this time and again. I believe this is part of the reason why after the 6-0 start teams quickly figured out how to defend KO and Mcdaniels successfully.
In contrast look at QB’s like Brady, Rothlesberger, Manning, Brees and of course ELWAY, you will see the stark contrast. Each of these guys keeps their head up constantly scanning the field for an opening, even as they’re being contacted. KO on the other hand looks primary and occasionally secondary but as soon as the pocket starts to shift (as it always does in the NFL) instead of shifting within it and continuing to scan you see his head drop and the search for safety begin. His mobility is certainly limiting but other QB’s are equally slow footed but are still able to make the subtle shifts within the pocket to buy time while continuously looking for the open. KO does not appear to have this ability and I don’t think it can be easily developed as it appears to be a more instinctive rather than learned behaviour.
"as in football so in life"
Vick
He is learning to do the shifting rather than look for “safety” (which in his case was running with the ball). It’s a learned skill.
Thanks man!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Just because Tebow isn't starting doesn't mean we wont see him
Remember guys, as bad as Kyle has been in the 4th and in clutch situations, he has been almost equally as impressive on starting drives for the last 3 games. We will see a ton more of Tebow for these last 4 games unless the coaches are seeing something in practice that tells them we have absolutly no chance with him. I kinda doubt that but it might be the case.
by Mile_High_Helmet on Dec 8, 2010 9:01 AM MST reply actions
Keeping Tebow on the bench
doesn’t mean the coaches think “we have absolutly no chance with him”. It is what I would do, the way the Packers kept Rodgers on the bench or the Chargers kept Rivers on the bench. Orton right now is comparable to Brees in his later Charger days. He gives us the best chance to win – this season and probably for the next one or two. These stats speak to our lack of success, but they don’t point to Orton as the reason.
If I were the coach, given that I believe Tebow will be a great QB, I would keep Orton in and work hard with Tebow every day. The fans want Tebow, but if they really got him right now, they would get dissillusioned too fast. He isn’t an NFL star QB – yet. Develop him in the relative shadows of the practice field, give the fans a few snaps each game where he does something with a good chance of success, and in a year or so turn the team over to him. That has the best chance of success, with the goal of making Tebow into a top-tier NFL QB and keeping the Broncos competitive and winning both now AND in the future. All you have to do is endure the media and fan pressure – and if you can’t do that, you can’t coach in the NFL.
That's what I've been thinking too
Must be a reason Tebow isn’t playing. Studes said Orton will start. Is it because he’s keeping to the status quo? He’s gonna want to do well coaching in the next few games. If he does then he might get his shot. You all will have to be patient! Watch and see…
I’m just sayin"
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
Tebow
It might be that the staff knows Tebow is scary bad
by betterdaysahead on Dec 8, 2010 9:51 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
rocko1, why do you hate Tebow so? lmao
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Advanced NFL stats has a good measure for comparing players called Success Rate
Success Rate (SR) – The proportion of plays in which a player was directly involved that would typically be considered successful. Specifically, SR is the percentage of plays resulting in positive Expected Points Added (EPA).
Expected Points Added (EPA) – The difference between the Expected Points (EP) at the start of a play and the EP at the end of they play. EPA is the measure of a play’s impact on the score of the game. An individual player’s EPA is the sum of the EPA of the plays in which that player was directly involved. Being directly involved is defined as an offensive player who ran, threw, or kicked the ball, was targeted by a pass, or flagged for a penalty.
Looking at where Orton ranks in SR% helps to get into the main criticisms that has been raised here: to go on the down and the other 10 players on the team during the play.
Orton’s SR% is 45.3. That is comparable to Bradford, Farve (this year), Freeman, Flacco, Young and Henne. Better than a few full time starting QBs, but still in the bottom third fo the league. The top five in the league (not surprisingly) are Rodgers, Manning, Brees, Brady and Manning with the best SR% being 53.9%
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/playerstats.php?pos=QB
The worst in the league for a QB that has played 12 games is Anderson at 41.9%.
So when Orton throws the ball we are only successful less than half of the time. Success is different in different situations (success on a first down throw is gaining 4 or more yards, while success on ANY 3rd down is converting). Again, how you interpret this data depends largely on how much of the blame on an unsuccessful passing play rests with the QB (which is ironic since rarely does the praise on a successful pass play go to someone other than the QB).
Nice find
I think the chart shows Kyle for what he currently is, a quality mid level starter with some indentifiable upside. The team is in the bottom 25% by record, Kyle is slightly higher in the SR. He is very high, top 25%, in the EPA, % log and a few others. I think this mirrors what we see on the field. When everything works right he can really amaze – things just don’t seem to work right all that often. Is Kyle to cause of the failure, or just a symptom?
Orton
Oroton is accurate, dependable, takes a hit and is liked by his teammates,, but my biggest concern looking foward is that all the recent Super Bowl winners have top flight QB’s,, and maybe the Broncos must do whatever is necessary to get the Elway/Cutler talent level at QB. I dont see how Tebow is that guy, simply based on the fact that his arm/delivery will never be able to make all the necessary NFL throws.
by betterdaysahead on Dec 8, 2010 9:49 AM MST up reply actions
not the same criticisms though
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/45539.html
Only a few of the criticisms of Tebow are related to his throwing motions. Others are footwork (Rivers graded out well) and ability to read an NFL defense (probably the most significant criticism—far more important than motion).
Which is why Tebow is a work in progress
I don’t think he should be started yet, but I see footwork and reading the D as developed skills. Reading the D – Tebow will get that one, given how much time and effort he will put into it. That’s really what it takes.
Give Tebow and the coaches an offseason or two to work on that stuff. He’ll come out the other side a legit starter I’d wager. That’s why Orton continues to be our starter – he’ll be our guy next year too (unless the new coach differs from McD’s direction drastically). But Tebow is here for the future. He is a project, not a finished product.
yeah I agree
but developing those things is no sure thing, which is why Tebow is a risk-reward proposition, and why you’re right that he needs time to work on that stuff.
right
I think EPA is a better more sensitive metric than SR, because hitting a 40 yard pass on first down is a significantly better than a five yard pass. This difference isn’t reflected in SR. I also think part of the Broncos/Orton’s passing SR issues can be chalked up to the running game as delineated by Burke here:
http://www.advancednflstats.com/2010/10/how-coaches-think-run-success-rate.html
This is true
Lloyd’s avg over 19 means lots of big plays – a low success rate with a huge reward if it does succeed equals lower SR and higher EPA.
HEY BRONCOS FANS
how about you get your team to trade orton back to chicago for a 7th or maybe even a 6th round pick next year? he would be a better backup to jay cutler than caleb hanie is.
Actually
It would be more accurate to say that the Broncos were more competitive in 07 and 08 than in 09 and 10.
The universe exists because it is simpler than nothing. The universe cannot be simpler than it is. The universe is the state closest to nothing.
Douglas Preston
My problem with Orton
has been his inability to respond well when things go badly. He can start a game off on fire, but once the offense gets stopped a few times, he just brings no energy to the team. He has plenty of arm and (usually) good accuracy. However, when a negative play happens, he rarely seems capable of rallying the offense around him.
The third down stats after a second down incompletion were mind-blowing. It’s one of those things that I had been seeing all year, but had never really understood until I saw the stats in writing. It’s just seemed like a bad second down play has consistently caused us to fail at third down too, but I had no idea how dramatic the statistics would really be.
by Tazzik on Dec 8, 2010 10:46 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
This is a better analysis
However, this is something that I would expect can be worked on and improved. Orton is good in many areas. And I do think Tebow is the future – just we should ride Orton to a couple more moderately successful seasons as we fix the other much bigger holes and develop Tebow.
Orton
A great quarterback is made NOT when the offense works perfectly, but what the quarterback does when the offense breaks down. This is where you see guys like Manning, Brady….even Big Ben and Rivers make their bones. Being able to create when the “safety” of the offense isn’t there to guide them.
This is why Orton will never lose you games, but won’t win you them when the game is on the line. End of game situations call for quick decision making and decisive judgment. It seems like Kyle has trouble making quick decisions and can only function within the confines of the offense.
I’d call Orton a chameleon. He changes his approach to adapt to the offense he’s in. Problem is he only exists within the context of an offense which, to me, indicates he has trouble with field command. Which is why I’ve drawn the conclusion that Orton is not the answer at QB…
Trouble is finding a quarterback who IS the answer.
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
by Jeffrey Morton on Dec 8, 2010 10:56 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Excellent work Tim
That’s a lot of stuff to go through and break down. Kudos on pulling it all together here. Something’s been off with Orton all year, and I don’t know what it is, maybe the league just got enough tape on him or McDaniels offense. Somehow we could put up yards but not when it came to the Red Zone or when the game was on the line. I had a feeling and this article and the stats behind it just confirm that for me.
Owning the Patriots since September 9, 1960
The stats don't point to the reason though
I doubt it is Orton. If you stack up his bad numbers, it can seem bad – but his good numbers look really good too.
There are a lot of potential solutions for the poor RZ, 3rd down, and Clutch performance. Scrapping the QB isn’t one of them – giving him bigger targets (a TE and Demayrus in a year or two), a more consistent running game, a steady o-line, and more play action in those spots would help, I would expect. Orton is GREAT at play action, even with no running game to back it up.
I cannot believe the accolades for this post . . .
Tim, I am a big fan of yours, despite our differences on Orton. I have always enjoyed you writing and have emphatically told you so many times. Hell, I accepted your friendship request on this board.
However, this one was really bad because you ignored some very significant factors, not the least of which is down and distance. And unfounded suggestions that Orton was responsible for the down and distance does not make up for that. As I mentioned, if we are going to bring 1st and 2nd down into the discussion, then let’s analyze it. If we are not going to analyze 1st and 2nd down, then let’s stick to 3rd down.
And, looking solely at 3rd down, Orton faced 3rd and 8+ yards far too much. Hoopforia provided above statistics to show that none of the QBs are very good at 3rd-and-long. As I mentioned, I want to see how Orton does under more
normal circumstances and then make a judgment. But a blanket statement that he is not good on 3rd down, as it stands right now, is not fair to Orton. McDaniels said just as much, and so have several others with and outside of the Broncos . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Dec 8, 2010 12:04 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I did NOT ignore it...I just didn't find what you mentioned relevant because I felt Orton was to blame for much of it.
The rabbit hole is admittedly large, at some point I have to say, “What is important”? A down and distance post would be an EPIC post unto itself. I found most of the situations resulted from Orton failures on 1st or 2nd down with an incomplete pass, sack, or delay of game…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Turnovers in the Clutch is a Tricky Stat to rely on
Orton has had turnovers with the game on the line – granted.
The thing is, EVERY QB gets turnovers with the game on the line, unless they are spectacularly lucky! When you are no longer able to play it safe, you can’t take the check down, the defense is playing vs the pass (pass rushers coming hard, extra DBs in the game, nobody buys the play action) – these factors lead to turnovers. 6 on the year with the game on the line is bad – but when I look at our team I see a million reasons why this is true besides “Orton sucks”.
-Running game was HORRIBLE, especially toward the beginning of the season when several of the close games went down. Without Moreno… Orton HAD to throw. Anybody who watched Malroney run knew that.
-No reliable “big target”. Our WRs are good – but we can’t rely on a TE or a big WR to make a big target for Orton to have safer throws. This especially hurts on 3rd down. Demayrus Thomas isn’t consistent enough yet, and our TEs were bad. No easy target for short to mid range throws. This means more “take a chance” throws, so more INTs.
-Orton is the King of Play Action. The best in the league at selling the fake. 3rd Down play action isn’t usually very effective, unless it is 3rd and short. It also isn’t effective in hurry-up “clutch” situations, unless we have a lead or lots of time (and Moreno is in the game). The noted shotgun formation also makes play action ineffective.
-Rookies and injuries on the O-line. That equals hurries, sacks, and sack/fumbles. Especially combined with the issues in the running game
The running game has been very real since the BYE, agreed?
Look at the Broncos third down rate in those games…it has been WORSE than before the Bye.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I won't have time to fully digest and reply to
your analysis before I leave to go bowling and then to work, Tim, but I do have time for a quibble. We know McDaniels is gone and don’t need oh-so-clever cross outs to remind us. It just looks snide. But the effort you put in on the stats and analysis is truly impressive and I look forward to studying and commenting on it when I get home from work in the morning. I wish I could do it right now. Thanks for taking the time to do this.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I think the intent is to say
it no longer matters who the coach is / was. I don’t think it’s a stab at McDaniels.
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
I wrote it before the firing....I had no desire to rewrite after spending over a week on the post.
Sorry it came off as snide.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
There was no need to rewrite
or to strike out his name, but I might have been ungenerous in assuming you were trying to be cute rather than unsure of how to deal with his change of status in a piece that was written before it changed. See you tomorrow. (Just stopped by the house on the way to work.) I want to address some of the points you made. I’m not sure if I’ll agree with you or not, but you’ve raised some valid issues and brought some very interesting stats to the table.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I thought it was funny, so yes you were right on that one. lol (Am I so easy to read?!)
However, I also felt it was an “cute” way to get this posted without re-writing it as if I had known McD was getting canned Monday.
Man I am so predictable. I credit Brian Shrout for the idea though as he suggested it when I talked about starting the re-write… :P
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
And Action!
Tebow: " Coach! Can I play? C’mon man, we’re 3-9!"
Coach: “Uh, no Tim. Not yet.”
Tebow: “Aww man, but why not?”
Coach: “-———————————————————-”
I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
“cuz we’re trying to win a MF’ing game!!”
by Mile_High_Helmet on Dec 8, 2010 8:04 PM MST up reply actions
puke
That’s what I did after reading your tripe. Sorry, but the facts of life show that if you are out to prove a point, you will . In other words, your bias against Orton is so deep, that no matter the data, you’ll prove your bias in your results.
No where in your “stats” did you include the fact that the Oline was a mess up until 2 weeks ago. They couldn’t pass block or run block. Not only does that sway the sack numbers, but also his 3rd down %.
That’s just one instance of how your entire article just wasted 3mins of my life.
I have more important things to read, so I’ll conclude this by simply stating that NO football person, on the radio/tv/booth, had intimated the team’s reason for it’s record is the QB.
I think I’ll go with the people that know what they’re talking about.
Yes, I have a position and the research only solidified my position.
Sorry I am not some dry, objectionable, emotionless, automaton.
You are generalizing far more than I did. 25 of Orton’s 33 sacks led to a failed third down with 18 of those sacks actually occurring ON THIRD DOWN. This was with a running game, without a running game, with a bad OL, with a good OL…it did not matter. Orton is and has been an epic failure on third down.
I’m sorry you refuse to be critical of Orton. I acknowledge I am probably harder on Orton than he deserves, but that is because this team is losing and the job of a QB is to convert third downs, lead the team to victories, and score in the red zone. Thanks to Tim Tebow, the red zone isn’t as bad as it could be, but Orton has failed in the other aspects of HIS JOB.
I appreciate the insults though…I know they come with the territory.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I've been bothered and puzzled by Orton's inability to convert 3rd downs, Tim
so was receptive to your statistical treatment as well as impressed by the effort you put into it. But after a closer look, as well as a look at some other stats, I have to agree with those who think you’re cherry picking to support your preconceived notion that Orton fails in clutch situations. A link to some of those stats was supplied by Broncos15, who apparently thought they support your argument. Maybe that’s because he looked only at 2010. I looked at the last four years in an attempt to answer the question, how has Orton developed in his ability to produce under pressure? What I see is an anomalous 2010, not a career pattern of being unable to rise to the occasion. Here are the stats: In 2007 when the score was close Orton’s QB rating was 59.5. When it was close late in the game his rating was 44.9. His overall QB rating that year was 73.9. At this point your impression that his play deteriorates in clutch situations seems justified. But in 2008 the relevant figures were 79.0, 68.2 and 79.6. There was almost no drop-off when the score was close, and a much more modest drop-off when the score was close late in the game. In 2009 the relevant figures were 98.4, 106.8 and 86.8. His play was significantly better when the score was close, and decisively better when it was close late in the game. Against this background of continued improvement his 2010 figures of 85.6, 58.4 and 93.0 are an anomaly that needs to be explained before it can serve as an indictment..
Next I went to nfl.com to compare his 3rd down conversion rate to that of other QBs. Since he didn’t have any passes in 2006 and not enough in 2007 to be listed, I used 2005 as the first year. His conversion rate that year was 25%, better only than J.P. Losman among QBs with enough attempts to qualify. In 2008 his rate improved to 30.3%, in 2009 to 34.2%, and in 2010 so far to 35.7%, a middle of the pack result that I now suspect understates his improvement.
The closest equivalent to that stat in your piece is the 39.7% conversion rate during “regular game action” which you label as “putrid”. But that rate, if it refers to the quarterback’s conversion rate, is actually very good. The league leader is normally around 41% or 42%. I suspect you’re actually referring to the team’s conversion rate, running and passing, in which case you’re in effect arguing that when Moreno gets stuffed on 3rd and short it’s because Orton choked. Now I don’t think statistically attrubuting running game failures to Orton is a deliberate sleight-of-hand, but it is cherry-picking with a vengeance.
It should strike an unbiased observer as odd that Orton, who has improved year by year in his play in pressure situations, who was apparently extremely good in the clutch last year, and who has shown dramatic improvement in his mastery of the offense this year, has suddenly become a choke artist. So odd that perhaps we should question it and try to explain why it seems so rather than assuming it is so. The answer, as plain as a wart on your face and already suggested by several posters, is the lack of a running game. I think the improvement in in blocking and thus in the run game, while real, is not as dramatic as the numbers suggest. Teams are selling out to stop the Broncos’ most dangerous weapon, the passing game, daring the Broncos to beat them on the ground. So far they can’t. The recent relative success of the running game hasn’t helped take pressure off the passing game because it’s largely the result of teams selling out against the pass.
As for the Broncos almost always failing to get a first down after an incomplete pass on 2nd down, that’s because our runners have so often been stuffed on 1st down. If you gain five or six yards on 1st down (as teams regularly do against us) the opponent doesn’t know if you’re going to pass or run on 2nd down, which makes it easier to gain enough yards on a running play to make it 3rd and short, or to pass for enough yards to get a 1st down or make it 3rd and short. It’s actually pretty amazing that Orton has done as well as he has with teams coming after him on every play, and with their secondaries concentrating almost solely on our receivers, letting the front seven deal with the run. With all this is mind I think the appearance of Orton being unable to perform in the clutch is an illusion, or else Peyton Manning, who has similarly been unable to rise above a spate of injuries to the tune of 11 interceptions in the last three games, is also a choke artist and a mediocre quarterback.
Despite the effort you put into your analysis, Tim, which I appreciate, I can’t help thinking that your choice of stats and your interpretation of them was driven by your very strong bias against Orton rather than by a true desire to examine the facts in order to understand, without prejudice, why things are as they are. I think Tebow will become a good quarterback, conceivably a great one, and that with his work ethic he might be able to be effective as soon as next year. But I almost hope we play him now because, just as happened when Simms played, it will shut people up. If he’s as ineffective as I suspect he will be it won’t mean he’s a bust in the making. It’ll mean that there’s a lot more to quarterbacking than most people realize, and that while a talented prospect can become an effective NFL quarterback he can’t do it instantaneously.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Dec 9, 2010 4:53 PM MST reply actions 1 recs

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