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Our Own Free Agents, Tic-Tock, It's Time to Pen a Battle Plan

The combine is comming up in just a short couple weeks, which should keep us all pretty busy ooohing and aaahhing, and putting our man crushes & mock drafts in overdrive. After that, free agency opens on March 5th, which iif it's anything like last year, we should expect to see Josh make moves like Napolean Dynamite. Should be pretty fun to watch.

Yet, expecting two weeks of quiet wouldn't necessarily be accurate, because more important than March 5th might be March 4th, 20 days from now. It's the deadling to which each team must have their one-year tenders offered to restricted free agents. Any RFA's not tendered by then become UFA's. So these tenders could start comming at any time.

And let's not forget about the unrestricted guys either. By my count, we've got about ten UFA's. Without action, these guys hit the open market with no strings attached to Denver come March 5th. So some decisions will soon need be made on guys like Hochstein, Holliday, Hamilton and Tony Carter. Ryan McBean will likely happen very soon, and others will probably walk without much thought given.

So with action seemingly so immenent, I figured it was now or never to sing my swan song, to get off the fence and make some solid projections of how we deal with these guys. I'm not sure you necessarily care about what I think, but this is also something for me to later look at to evaluate my own judgments. With accountability from clear porjections, hopefully I can learn from mistakes and look to future improvement.

I'm not going to go into the draft aspect, but rather just detail what course I see likely with each of our restricted/unrestricte/exclusive rights free agents. I still may change my opinions, but tomorrow could be too late, so for the sake of my own learning I'm willing to jump the gun just a bit.

Speaking of jump, here next, I'll detail likely actions for the key players, then briefly take a stab at the lesser key guys that may require action over the comming weeks.

Star-divide

Brandon Marshall

Brandon-marshall_medium

Tendering Marshall is the action here, but only as the means to an end. It’s simply the conduit we use to determine his worth, then either contract him or move him. Having him play out the season under tender is absolutely not an option. It would be begging from bended knee to have more punted balls, bad attitudes, and cancer in the locker-room. I would rather watch paint dry than watch that drama unfold.

Moving to the next stage, the big issue to getting a beastly contract commitment to work for both sides could likely come down to "guaranteed" money. We should neither ignore the risk, nor harp on it, but Mr. Marshall’s past cannot be ignored no matter how much one wants to believe in him. It’s not necessarily naïve to believe in him, but one league suspension and two team suspensions cannot be ignored, nor can his thirteen, or so, arrests.

Past behaviors tend to predict future risk. Knowing that an eight game suspension is likely, should Brandon have another brush with the law, dictates that a team protects itself against guaranteed money. Make no mistake, a contract extension for Marshall is to bet on Marshall’s ability to stay out of trouble with a good attitude, the production side of it is much less risky.

In the end, I think Marshall and management will wait to show the player his worth before any move is made one way or the other. Which means the first move is to place the high tender on him. Then field offers with open dialogue and see where things shake out. I said I’m getting off the fence, so I want to go on record here as saying I think he gets traded 60/40.

 

 

 

Matt Prater

Mattprater_medium

This one shouldn’t be too hard. A 2nd round tender for Matt Prater will cost $1.759M. You can’t really go any lower than that, because him not being drafted likely means the next step down would cost the responsive team no draft picks, only money to attain him. $1.76M is fairly cheap even for a kicker, so this seems like an easy solution. Prater could be given a contract extension anytime throughout the off-season/season, but I don’t expect that it will be a focus early on.

 

 

 

Elvis Dumervil

Elvis-dumervil-and-champ-bailey-take-down-cleveland-browns-receiver-josh-cribbs_medium

The ability to tender these restricted free agents is something of a Birthday present this year. With the players’ fear of playing out the season under tender, negation leverage resides near exclusively with management. Granted, Dumervil’s paycheck this year, even under tender, will be far more than he has ever made before. But the sack-master is still looking down the barrel of a potential lockout, potentially meaning no payday next year. So he faces a very real possibility of making $3.168M over the next two years combined versus cashing a fat signing bonus in the here and now.

On the other hand, with similar players very recently cashing in on new contracts, it would be hard to pull the wool over his eyes too badly.

Anyway, even for the highest tender amount, there’s a very real chance that offer(s) come sheets come in on him while we’re still working out a contract. So if I’m management, I try to lock him up right now. As you’ll see in the chart below, I project giving him a very large amount of guaranteed money, a very handsome signing bonus, and perhaps just to the lighter side of fair market value as to the average yearly salary.

The immediate course is to tender him for a 1st and 3rd rounder if nothing is done before that becomes necessary. Also, don’t be shocked if a franchise tag gets used instead. I would doubt it, but this is the one case on the team where I could see it possible.

 

 

Kyle Orton

Kyle_orton_130909_medium

Mr. Bowlen recently stated he would like to draft a QB, should the chance present itself. Now I’m not one to read too much into coach-speak, rumors, the he said, she said, etc... But when Mr. B throws out a hint like that, I listen. And for that reason, I would say Kyle’s years here are minimally numbered.

That said, let’s get clear that Orton’s not a problem to be fixed. It wasn’t Kyle’s fault that Ryan Harris got hurt, that the interior line couldn’t "push", or that the defense stopped defending the run.  Even with all that, last season proved we can win without whatshisname, and Kyle was a big part of that. He did a great job and made amazing strides under Coach McDaniels’ tutelage. He’s a game manager, sure. But he’s a very good game manager. You don’t have to like him, but you very likely have to live with him, at least in the short term.

Chris Simms isn’t going to take helm and neither is Brandstater, certainly not yet anyway. David Carr is not an upgrade and Vick isn’t welcome here. The rumors about Donavon McNabb were ridiculous and unfounded, and an aging, injury prone scrambler was never really an option anyway. Oh, and whoever your current draft crush is, well he’s not the immediate answer either.

So we need to assume that Kyle Orton will be our starter next year, and leave the eventual replacement discussion for another time. The question now becomes how we keep him. Originally, I wanted to see him signed to a two year deal, because I could see a few very positive results from that action. First is that Kyle would be ecstatic to have a little security going into a potential lockout; he would soldier on and happily lead the offense like he always has. He would feel emboldened, that for the first time in his career somebody has shown confidence and faith in him. And that my friends, could truly make a difference.

Also, with what we should expect to be a better running game, a new focus on getting the short third-downs, and hopefully a run defense that defends all season long… Kyle’s stock will improve. Meaning, with a two year deal, we would still own the rights to him after he showed for two seasons that he is better than an average QB. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that Kyle could then fetch a 2nd rounder or more. And it goes without saying that taking care of your players (by extending contracts when warranted), is good locker room mojo.

The problem with that solution, however, is that I ignorantly hadn’t realized the sheer amount of money that even mediocre QB’s make. Even guys like Delhomme and Garrard make $8M-$10M per year, while tendering Orton will cost about $3M. So sorry Kyle, but in the end, there’s just no way that Denver’s respect for you can single handedly kick over an extra $5M+. It’s just bad business.

So that’s the nuts of it with Mr. Orton. The Broncos will likely tender him for a first-round pick, but don’t be surprised if they go with the highest tender of a 1st and 3rd, either. In fact, that’s how I would do it. The difference in price paid is only like $500k, and we need Kyle to go into the season as our starter. We can’t chance somebody with a first-rounder in the teens, or later, offering Orton $5M to wear different colors. If we said take him, it would cost us a starting QB, one that knows our system, for a draft pick that’s not nearly high enough to go after Bradford. So I say just don’t play with fire, no matter how unlikely. It’s not worth 500k when you might then lose $3M, or a QB, just for being greedy.

I wouldn’t be surprised by either tender amount, but for the sake of clarity, I’m going with my gut, which is the highest tender. Kyle Orton tender for a 1st and 3rd pick and a salary of $3.168M. In addition, I would almost expect that later in the off-season, Kyle is given some sort of bonus/additional performance incentive.

 

 

Chris Kuper

Polumbus_kuper_medium

Although I think most here are on the same page with Kuper, I’ve also heard it said that he needs to go. I say, no way. We’ve got a lot of issues to deal with on the line, and not just the starters but a colossal lack of quality depth all around. No need to create another hole to fill. The recurring theme, though, is where to tender him at. He was a 5th rounder in Mike Shanahan’s ’06 draft and has started 31 of the last 32 games. I don’t think the Redskins have a 5th round pick this year, but I wouldn’t put it passed Shanahan to go find one somewhere and start a small bidding war with us. So the action here is to place a 2nd round tender on Chris Kuper and pay him the $1.759M. In fact, I would be less surprised if it was a first-round tender, than if it was the 5th round tender.

 

       Amount   Guaranteed   Total paid     
  Name Pos.  per year   Money   in 1st year     
RFA Brandon Marshall WR         8,500,000      15,500,000   12,500,000  Trade   1st &3rd tender @ $2.562M... eventual trade. These #'s are what to expect if we extend him. Vincent Jackson's contract should be watched very closely 
RFA Tony Scheffler TE         1,759,000  Trade   3rd round pick-ish. No rush necessarily. Need to place a 2nd round tender on him, then negotiate with clubs to lower price 
RFA Kyle Orton QB         3,168,000  Tender   Plays out season under highest tender, this could also be just the 1st round tender instead. 
RFA Chris Kuper OG         1,759,000  Tender   2nd round tender, perhaps offer sheet(s) are made 
RFA Matt Prater K         1,759,000  Tender   2nd round tender, no offers 
RFA Elvis Dumervil OLB      10,666,667      40,500,000   15,500,000  Resign   High tender if extension is not done by beginning of March. Franchise tag isn't out of the question. 6yr/$64M 
EFA Josh Barrett S              425,000  Resign 
UFA Tony Carter CB              425,000  Resign 
UFA Vonnie Holliday DG         1,250,000  Resign 
UFA Russ Hochstein OG              825,000  Resign 
UFA Ryan McBean DG              775,000  Resign   Hard to pin down a price, but this should be fairly close. Should be one of the very first signings. 
UFA Vernon Fox S  Release 
UFA Mitch Berger ST  Release 
UFA Brandon Lloyd WR  Release 
UFA Ben Hamilton OG  Release 
RFA Le Kevin Smith DG  Release   Perhaps sign to minimum deal after he tests FA, but nothing immediate. 
DEN Chris Simms QB  Release   We could end up eating some money on this, but it needs done. 
UFA Ty Law CB  No action   No impedning action, camp possible, but not season 
DEN Jarvis Moss DE  No Action  He's still owed guaranteed money, but making the final 53 is unlikely, especially as the new staff has no real ties to him. 
DEN Peyton Hillis RB  No action   He could eventually be traded for a 6th/7th rounder, but nothing immediate. 

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 67 comments  |  18 recs  | 

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Thanks!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 12, 2010 9:04 PM MST up reply actions  

Great, well set out work man...

You made it really easy to understand what’s going on and for that thanks. (Rec’d too)

I’m surprised that Moss is still PS eligible. You sure about that?

I’ve been pretty much in the trade Marshall camp but I’m starting to come around. He gets accusations of just being a possession receiver. I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Possession receivers move the chains. You put a true deep threat on the other side of him and I have a feeling 100 catches gets done after week 12 or 13. It’s the reason I want Bryant in Rnd 1 and to target DT/DE and OG/C in FA and rounds 2-4 of the draft. I hope we keep Marshall.

I’d expect McBean to get something higher than that. He was effective all year.

Thanks for the work!

"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."

"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams

by orange&blue_aussie on Feb 12, 2010 7:36 PM MST reply actions  

No. Thank you for catching that!

Moss is not PS eligible. I’m pretty sure he’ll have to be cut instead, even if a little money is owed. I don’t see him making the final 53. He played in seven games last year, zero starts, zero tackles, no FF’s, no Int’s, and only one pass defended.

Thank you for the compliment, btw.

As for Marshall, I would like to keep his production, and don’t see this being an irrepairable relationship. When pressed, I just think he leaves because he presents a big risk for the money we would need to shell out.

McBean was effective. I think his is one of the first contracts to get done. But we’ve got to remember, he was on PS prior to taking the starting job, so even this is a big jump. I based my salary projection for him in large part on Kenny Peterson’s salary, which is just slightly higher.

His salary could in fact be higher than I projected, I’ll be interested to find out here shortly.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 12, 2010 8:59 PM MST up reply actions  

The Scout team or 'Practice Squad'.
Both rookies and young veterans are eligible for the practice squad. However, a player cannot participate on the practice squad for more than three seasons, or if he has accrued a year of NFL experience (six or more games on a club’s 53-man active roster or official Injured Reserve list.) If the player was on the active list for fewer than 9 games during their “only Accrued Season(s)”, he maintains his eligibility for the practice squad

•A third-year outside linebacker/defensive end who has totaled 39 tackles (23 solo) and 3.5 sacks (20 yds.) in 18 games (1 start) during his first two NFL seasons with the Broncos. I don’t know if Jarvis Moss is eligible to be placed on the PS since he played in 12 games in 2008. Keeping him will take a roster spot that we can’t afford if he isn’t going to contribute to the game. I for one was a Moss proponent, but he has yet to live up to his hype. Maybe it has to do with his injury status or he doesn’t fit the scheme we play. He has the height and weight (I would like for him to add 15-20# of muscle) but his hips may be a little narrow for him to be an effective pass rusher and run stuffer.

by bfree2bronc on Feb 13, 2010 2:39 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree

The worst thing that MArshall can do is be a big bodied receiver that can move the chains. The upside is he can break a long one every now and then. Plus, defenses constantly talk about how hard he is to match up against. That should help keep single coverage on the outside of the opposite side of the field.

You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?

You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen

by johnnystarr on Feb 12, 2010 9:38 PM MST up reply actions  

Yeah, March 4th is the deadline, March 5th they become UFA's if they're not under tender

March 4 – The deadline to make one-year tender offers to restricted free agents expires. If the player is not tendered, he becomes a free agent. It is also the deadline for clubs to submit minimum-salary offers to their exclusive rights free agents.

Hate to put a Dallas Cowboys link on here, but it was the first one I found that was simplified when I looked for a quote to comment back lol

http://www.dallascowboys.com/news/news.cfm?id=B53A4773-B4FD-B28B-8B264F92E5E9617F

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 12, 2010 8:49 PM MST up reply actions  

How many tenders does a team have?

I think there is only 1 franchise tag allowed,correct?Is 4 the limit for tenders? If so then we’ll have to either sign a few or do some early trades.
 If we can tender all the RFA then it’ll be easier.REC’D

If Marshall has no takers at highest tender he just might have to play for 1 year at 2+million or risk riding the bench and seeing his value really drop.I don’t see us giving him away.

by Broncolorado on Feb 12, 2010 8:41 PM MST reply actions  

Thanks for the comments and Rec

You are correct that there is generally only one franchise tag and one transition tag per team, per year. However, everything is a little wacky this year with no salary cap, the RFA’s, etc..

Each team this year actually gets to use TWO franchise tags and TWO transition tags for the 2010 season. There is no limit on how many players we can tender, so long as they are RFA’s.

I don’t see the Marshall scenario you suggest as very likely, but it is certainly possible.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 12, 2010 9:03 PM MST up reply actions  

Excellent

The only thing I’d do differently in these contractsis rap up the bonus into the first years (2010) salary . This way a prorated bonus won’t be spread out over capped years.

... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear

by 3nS on Feb 12, 2010 9:41 PM MST reply actions  

That's a good point

It will be interesting to see how/when/if the cap comes back.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 12, 2010 9:55 PM MST up reply actions  

rec'd for providing great information

I do have a couple of questions out of ignorance.

1)I thought I read that if no new CBA is signed by Mar 5th all of our Unrestricted Free Agents become Restricted Free Agents. I thought I’d read that the rules completely change if 2010 becomes an uncapped year. Am I wrong in this?

2)Could the quiet we’re seeing be due to the fact that the teams are hesitant to commit before they know for certain that the cap will or will not be in place?

One disagreement, I’m still not particularly convinced that we are, in fact, going to trade Marshall.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Feb 12, 2010 10:53 PM MST reply actions  

#1 only applies to

those players that have been in the league since 2005 or later.

by Sayre Bedinger on Feb 12, 2010 11:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Sorry Sayre

I somehow missed that you had already responded, and without my typos lol

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 1:35 AM MST up reply actions  

Ignorance sort of has a negative connotation, and your questions/comments are never that

The rules aren’t COMPLETELY changed, but they’re pretty shaken up to say the least. To answer your first question:

In capped seasons, a player whose contract expires becomes a restricted free agent if he has three accrued seasons. In the Final League Year (2010), a player whose contract expires becomes a restricted free agent if he has three, four or five accrued seasons. The first refusal/compensation rights of restricted free agents remain unchanged in the Final League Year.

So Brandon Marshall, for example, has played four seasons. If this were an uncapped year, he would be unrestricted and free to walk away. This being an uncapped year, he becomes a restricted free agent instead, meaning we can match an offer for him, or receive the respective compensation required.

http://origin.newyorkjets.com/news/articles/show/3602-faq-on-the-cba-from-the-nfl

As to your second question, I think it would take an act of God to get a deal done in the next couple months, let alone the next couple weeks. I think the shot-callers behind the big football desks everywhere are moving forward with the mind set that this year is an uncapped year, The “Final League Year”.

I’m not convinced on Marshall either, like I said, 60/40. I think it’s a decision that still has too many variables, but with a gun to my head today, I say we’re moving him.

Thanks for the comments!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 12, 2010 11:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Elvis, Sayre

Thanks for the clarifications. It really helps.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Feb 12, 2010 11:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh

I forget to mention that as far the “quiet” we’re seeing so far, to be honest, I’m not sure if there is an actual date for them to be able to begin handing out tenders (like there is for franchise/transition tags), or if it might be due to some contract negotiations going on begind the scenes, like for Doom, perhaps.

Meaning, and this is an absolute guess, they might want to sort of hand them out in bulk. An example I would use is sort of like if you were to lay a bunch of people off. You wouldn’t really want to hand out a few, leaving the rest to wonder what’s going to happen. You would do it decisively, in one stroke so to speak so to speak, rather than to piece meal it. Again, just my guess.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 1:44 AM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for keeping the rest of us in the know EA...Signed: The Sponge!

-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!

by BroncoSense72 on Feb 13, 2010 5:59 AM MST reply actions  

Props over here.

This was one of the very best fan posts I’ve ever read. You are a smart cat that knows your stuff.

I agree with most of what you wrote, your reasoning and your odds.

OLBs are not paid as much as DEs so you might be high on your value placed on the Elvis deal. But the guy that has more career sacks than Mario Williams in the same number of games so it’s going to be expensive to resign him. He earned it.

I have no idea what we do about Marshall, but I do think there are a handful of teams that would part with 1st and 3rd to sign him. Can Baltimore sign him since they are one of the final eight teams in the 2009 playoffs? I hope he stays, but getting a 1st and 3rd in a strong draft would dull the pain a bit. Esp. if that 1st rounder was in the top 20. Miami drafting at 12 overall, Seattle at 14, Tenn at 16, Cinny at 21 and the Pats at 22 all could make a run at Marshall. What do you think?

A 2nd rounder on Kuper makes sense. He was actually a 6th round pick and several teams would fork over a 6th to gain his services. However, in a deep draft like 2010, giving up a 2nd rounder is like giving up a late 1st in other drafts. That is a steep price to play for an average NFL starter like Kuper. I hope Kuper stays.

Fully agree on Prater and Scheff.

 Your thesis on Orton also makes a lot of sense, but I’d put a 1st round tender on him and nothing more. I would very much hope another team signed him. I don’t think any team would fork over a 1st for Orton and give Kyle a big deal seeing that such a pick would probably be a pretty high 1st rounder. I doubt a playoff team is going to sign Kyle – they don’t need starting QBs. A top 20 pick in 2010 for Orton… yes please. Bowlen made it very clear that Orton is not his long term answer at QB. Getting a high 1st round pick for a one year rental player would be amazing value (Cutler trade keeps giving and giving). That said, Kyle would be vastly underpaid at $2.5MM per year so a max tender seems like the least we can do in screwing over our QB.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 13, 2010 7:50 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

I'm still not crazy

about many of the QB’s in the draft. I know Orton may not be the answer, but I do hope we keep him. I’d rather have him after a year in this system than even a top 5 rookie QB. If we could get Cassel or Brady, who know the system, I’d say get that high round pick, but since we can’t, I say stick with Kyle.

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Feb 13, 2010 8:40 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Thanks for the really great compliment McGeorge

"The Final Eight Plan" really has nothing to do with RFA’s, only UFA’s. It’s more meant to prevent already winning teams from poaching lesser teams’ talent in an uncapped year. RFA’s are fair game to anybody, as long as the team submitting the offer sheet is willing to cough up the required tender.

As an aside, I also want to note that I think the "final eight" is pretty misunderstood for the most part. It’s more like the final four, because it’s really only the final four that are severely handicapped in attaining UFA’s. Teams 8-5 (teams that lost in the divisional round of the playoffs), like Baltimore for example, are allowed one big “freebie”, and unlimited small ($3.7M per year, which would even include guys like Ryan Pickett) freebie’s, so to speak.

Meaning, the Ravens (a final eight team) could sign ONE UFA like Julius Peppers without having lost any of their own free agents. The Jets (a final four team), on the other hand, couldn’t sign a guy like Peppers without losing a guy that makes as much as Peppers, and I don’t even think that is possible.

Yes Doom certainly earned his contract, and I would hope it’s being worked on right now. As you eluded to, if I’m sitting across the table negotiating against Dumervil’s agent, I’m not going to bring up a comparison to Julius Peppers, or even guys like Dwight Freeney and Jared Allen, because as you said, they make more. I’m not sure if it’s necessarily a good thing for the team, but a handful of 3-4 OLB’s like Suggs, Ware, and Harrison, all signed new deals within the past year. So Dumervil’s contract will likely use those contracts as a negotiation starting point. (I also looked at those contracts when projecting.)

That said, Kyle would be vastly underpaid at $2.5MM per year so a max tender seems like the least we can do in screwing over our QB.

haha agreed!

You’ve got a valid point that playoff teams aren’t going to need Kyle, meaning any first-rounder we get would be a better pick. Although I really don’t see it as clearly as that. If I’m that nutty Mike Singletart at #13, and decide Alex Smith gets the boot for whatever reason, I’m not giving my #13 to make Orton my starter. I’m trading back to GB so they can fix their OL and gaining a 2nd round pick out of it. Far fetched? Yes. But like I said, for 500k, I wouldn’t play with fire.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 5:13 PM MST up reply actions  

I do like your creativity, but answer me this… How often do teams trade their draft position (esp 1st round picks) days or weeks before the draft. The answer is rarely, it happens every so often, but it is rare.

Teams usually swap 1st round pick positioning during the NFL draft. They usually do this to target a specific player or because a player they wanted was previously picked. I don’t think San Fran is going to swap picks with Green Bay during the draft while signing Orton to a LT deal, executing the deal and sending that 22nd pick to Denver.

The SF trade to GB sounds great in theory (it really does make sense), but it doesn’t seem realistic based on how the NFL has conducted business/draft pick trades in the past.

BTW: I’d be thrilled if we got any 1st round pick for Orton, even if it was the 32 pick in round one.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 15, 2010 7:30 AM MST up reply actions  

Even if...

…we use that first round pick on someone like Alphonso Smith?

The prophet Elijah told Ahab that the dogs would lick his blood, and so it came to pass, as you would imagine, since only the successful prophets are remembered.

by bradley on Feb 15, 2010 9:45 AM MST up reply actions  

LOL. Bazinga!

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Feb 15, 2010 9:57 AM MST up reply actions  

ha-ha

But by all indications this is suppose to be an extremely deep draft.

Brandon Graham @ 32!

You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?

You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen

by johnnystarr on Feb 15, 2010 10:01 AM MST up reply actions  

It’s a risk that would make me worry until I was sick.

Sometimes you get a franchise changing pillar like Clady and sometimes you get Jarvis Moss.

Orton is not a franchise QB IMO so I guess I’d take the risk we could find a better player either at QB or elsewhere.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 15, 2010 2:15 PM MST up reply actions  

These QB;s in this draft are not worth anywhere near a Top 10 pick. This is where your idea does not make sense...

I dont mind the idea in theory, but you keep plumping for Bradford who is made of glass, has questionable arm strength and decision making, or Clausen who is a flat out hoax. Bad decision making, average arm strength and terrible decision making.
Its like buying spending $70000 on a pinto because you BELIEVE you desperately need a car, when in fact the one you still have in the garage has low miles, can do all you want, yet for some reason, you blame it for your own lack of driving skills.
Does not make good economic or common sense.
Enough about Bradford and Clausen…..they are NOT very good, and offer NO value in the 1st round!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Feb 16, 2010 6:48 AM MST up reply actions  

Dont know why mentioned decision making twice...still early I guess!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Feb 16, 2010 6:49 AM MST up reply actions  

I keep telling you I’ll rub this in your face next offseason.

Bradford will be a franchise QB.

I don’t know about Clausen.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 18, 2010 8:03 PM MST up reply actions  

I'm definitely on the McClain train...

But wouldn’t mind Bradford if he was available. Not so much a lack of trust in Orton, but a feeling that we won’t pick this high again for years, and in general, franchise QBs are taken at the top end of the first round.

If Orton doesn’t work out, then we’re coverd….If Orton plays great, then we have the fantastic problem that Philly does in having two good looking QBs and not knowing what to do with them..

by Kgrone on Feb 18, 2010 8:18 PM MST up reply actions  

yep

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 18, 2010 8:36 PM MST up reply actions  

that's it, right there

With any luck, we won’t be picking in the top half for a long time. Best case scenario is that it is now or never.

I’m not up to contemplating the worst case scenario…

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 11:31 PM MST up reply actions  

hahaha don't get him going on that =)!!!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 15, 2010 5:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Stupid Alphonso Smith trade.

How great would it be if we had the 14th pick in this draft and we could address TWO front seven needs.

Like I said last off season: Alphonso Smith < 2010 1st round pick.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 15, 2010 10:32 PM MST up reply actions  

I'll concede; like I said, it's not likely

I still wouldn’t chance losing our starting QB due to a mere $500k – which in all rights, he’s well worth anyway.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 15, 2010 5:39 PM MST up reply actions  

I’d rather have an extra 3rd round pick.

I don’t care either way. I’d love to see another team fork over a 1st and 3 for Orton.

Cutler traded for three 1st round picks and two 3rd rounders… Wow. Draft haul of a life time. Now just don’t waste them.

It’s like the H Walker trade that set Dallas up for three Super Bowl wins.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 15, 2010 10:24 PM MST up reply actions  

Nicely done.

I hate to get into the prediction game because so many things can happen, but you make a strong case and I appreciate your effort. +1

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Feb 13, 2010 8:37 AM MST reply actions  

Nice bridge to combine

The only time worse than now when it comes to no Bronco new is between the reviews of the draft and the days leading up to training camp. Thanks for an excellent post…rec’d ad well.

McGeorge posted something on Marshall that I hadn’t known. “Character concerns were listed among his negatives as a draft prospect. He had some issues in college and the reason he ended up at Central Florida was partyly due to his issues in high school.” I hadn’t known his character issues included high school problems that caused a drop to a mid-level college. I’d 10 times rather take the risk of draft picks proving out in a trade for Marshall in lieu of the risk of his character, beast or not.

Again, thanks for the tasty morsel to bridge the gap.

"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."

by BroncoCUbuffs on Feb 13, 2010 12:37 PM MST reply actions  

Marshall has been a troubled player for longer than he has been a Denver Bronco.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 13, 2010 4:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks

A tiger can change his stripes, not literally, but IMO lol

I think it’s possible, but he’s got more history showing the opposite than evidence of change. It’s certainly risky to bet on him, no matter how it turns out.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 5:16 PM MST up reply actions  

elvis, good work

I can’t find anything to disagree with here, except to say that Orton may be here for a long time, since he has given no reason to bail on him. I think we only lose him if someone aggressively comes after him, and makes it impossible to keep up, and I just don’t see that happening. We can still be active in the QB market, and int he draft, just because the Q position is such a weak point around Kyle, but I think Kyle will be here until the fat lady sings (injury or unrelenting overture).

Also, I’m not sure where the tender info is coming from, but your numbers seem to be off. It is possible that CBA wording confused someone somewhere, or that they are pulling data from the “three accrued seasons in a capped year” section of the CBA, but the accurate numbers, from the special section applying to RFAs with four accrued seasons in uncapped years:

right of first refusal: $1.176m
rofr + draftpick at selection taken: $1.176m
rofr + 2nd: $1.759m
rofr + 1st: $2.521m
rofr +1st +3rd: $3.168m

These numbers are straight from the CBA, so nothing should be lost in translation. Wording int he CBA can be ambiguous, but in this case it is very clear that these numbers apply to contracts tendered for the 2010 season for an uncapped year. Honestly, though, I don’t think the difference affects much of what you are saying here, since Orton would still be a steal at $3mil, and the draft picks are the significant factor in most of the other tendering decisions, so mostly the correction is just for the posterity of the post.

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2010 1:21 PM MST reply actions  

I think Denver will save themselves roughly $600,000 by using a 1st round tender and not a 1 & 3. I agree with Jeremy that no team aggressively comes after him.

Either $3.2MM or $2.6MM is good value for Denver for their starting QB. He’d fetch at least twice that amount in a normal year (and when draft pick compensation was not involved).

Teams just won’t be falling all over themselves to surrender high draft picks in the upcoming draft to sign away and give big contracts to RFAs. Especially players with limited upside like Orton.

Orton gave Denver no reason to bail on him and he also didn’t give Denver a reason to sign him to a long term deal along the lines of what Matt Cassel got from KC. With his decent play and our 8-8 record, Orton gave Denver every reason to use a high tender on a one year deal. Orton still has plenty to prove before he gets his franchice QB contract.

San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy

by McGeorge on Feb 13, 2010 4:17 PM MST up reply actions  

agreed

I’m with TJ in thinking that the odds favor a boost in Orton’s third down percentages next year, and if he can do that I think he will cross the bridge from the sort of no man’s land he is in now to the realm of required signing. If he struggles…unga bunga….

Not sure which side of 1st + 3rd vs. just a 3rd I come down on… On the one hand, a 1st round draft choice is steep…. On the other hand, a team who needs a starting QB, among other things might be willing to do a trade up/back scenario to get a starting caliber guy in Orton, just to solidify a roster spot…strange trades get assembled when draft picks are involved, including future year picks. I don’t know if I have read anywhere that the picks given for compensation have to be for the upcoming draft or not, and whether a situation could crop up where the player accepts the offer sheet from the competing team, and then the compensated team wants to refuse the compensation and deny the deal (for example because they want a first this year instead of next year…)

A 1st only would probably come across as being intended to drum up a market, perhaps to create a current market contract deal… and if the market proved unfavorable, the gamble nets a 1st….

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2010 8:00 PM MST up reply actions  

A 1st only would probably come across as being intended to drum up a market

Agreed. And I don’t think that’s the message we really want to send. Although neither would surprise me. This is a debate of specifics, but the overall actiion won’t change.

The other thing that I think gets lost in the shuffle sometimes or gets brushed off as an unimportant sound bite, is that this year’s draft picks will likely go down as the highest cost picks for the next decade.

Both sides want a rookie-cap. The players’ union would like those monies to go to players with whom they already represnt; the owners want to pay money to ‘sure things’ not dice rolls. And the rookies don’t yet belong to the NFL; they have no voice.

So I think this years draft picks, high picks especially, could be more easily be given up than any other recent years… even if the draft class is special.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 8:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for the comments and the correction

It’s very, very rare that I use wikipedia for anything. But I guess I got lazy and used it for the tender numrbers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restricted_free_agent

I truly appreciate the information so that I can fix it.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 5:21 PM MST up reply actions  

np :)

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 13, 2010 8:02 PM MST up reply actions  

I was talking with Kaptain Kirk about calibroncoboy’s question relating to RFA’s becomming UFA’s after March 4th. Our opinions differ and I was only able to find official team websites with answers. Do you perhaps have the link to the official CBA that you could show me?

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 8:32 PM MST up reply actions  

I apologize for not reading this til now

I didn’t need to put a post up when they could’ve been comments over here. I wasn’t trying to steal your thunder or step on toes.

Another good effort Alex.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Feb 13, 2010 9:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Kirk

I never took it like that. My guess is that we’re both here to learn as much as to give opinions. We would never learn without ideas being challenged.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 10:48 PM MST up reply actions  

No worries

We can always exchange emails.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Feb 13, 2010 10:50 PM MST up reply actions  

just caught this request for a copy of the CBA...

Do you still need it?

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 15, 2010 1:34 PM MST up reply actions  

No, I found the PDA verstion

Wow, that’s a massive document. I got through about half of it so far (skimming what I considered the less important sections).

Thanks for the reply though.

On a side note that may only be interesting to me, it that it really stuck out to me how much time, space, and thought the agreement puts into the final league year, the uncapped year, etc.. I would have thought there was a single section (10-15 pages maybe), but the entire agreement almost seems to underline the this time we’re going through.

Makes me wonder if one of the sides (owners most likely) foresaw this year as not a possibility, but rather as being likely. Just an observation. Thanks again though!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 15, 2010 5:46 PM MST up reply actions  

Ouch!

I just started looking into the numbers discrepancy and noticed that those tender values I provided were 2008’s numbers. So it wasn’t wikipedia’s fault, it was mine. Which means I still made two mistakes; trusting a site that’s written by users, and not paying attention to the details, like um, the year =)

Thanks again!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 5:55 PM MST up reply actions  

But Garrard's a probowl QB

:p

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Feb 13, 2010 1:22 PM MST reply actions  

Great post!

Hopefully the team makes all the right moves in the off-season and they can start concentrating on the draft which is a whole other animal. Rec’d. :)

"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".

"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.

by broncoholic on Feb 13, 2010 5:59 PM MST reply actions  

True! and thanks!

I may make another post in a couple weeks detailing what I expect from free agency, but a large part of whether I make that post or not will depend on how embarassing these predictions then look lol

Then there’s the draft, and that’s the fun stuff. I’m guilty of making one mock myself a few weeks ago, but it’s really more of a wish list at this point until we get through some free agency and determine what needs remain. Can’t wait!

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 6:42 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for all the feedback, a couple edits should be noted

For whatever it’s worth, perhaps more so as simply my own disclaimer, I’ve made the following edits to this post:

1) Thanks to Jeremy Bolander, a mistake in "tender" salaries has been corrected. I had inadvertently used the 2008 numbers. The correction changes no projections in direction for any player, but certainly affects the salary amount for each player projected as being tendered.

Those corrections are as follows, and have been edited in the original post:

$2.562M $3.168M – 1st and 3rd round compensation
$2.017M $2.521M – 1st round compensation
$1.417M $1.759M – 2nd round compensation

2) Thanks to orange&blue_aussie for correcting a mistake relating to Jarvis Moss. The original post said, "He can be moved to PS or eventually released for roster space, but he’s still owed guaranteed money making a cut less likely". Jarvis Moss is not PS eligible. The overall "No action" in his column remains the same, as there is still no immediate action needed. But the original statement has been revised to state that he will likely not make the final 53.

Thanks again for those corrections guys.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 13, 2010 6:32 PM MST reply actions  

Lombardi from National Football Post said...

“Why would the Eagles have to extend Kevin Kolb’s contract? They own his rights for at least two more years as a restricted free agent, so there’s no reason for the Birds to give him any more money. Just like the Broncos won’t give Elvis Dumervil a new deal as he’s restricted as well. In this market, these deals make no sense.”

If we dont give Elvis a deal, will Broncos fans be upset? I say only if Elvis this publicly.

by Orange and Blue on Feb 14, 2010 9:01 AM MST reply actions  

What's Kolb going to do, become a hold out in TC?

He’s a backup. I think it would be a little naive to think that no clubs will sign any restricted free agents. Extending contracts before a player is allowed to walk happens all the time. Contracts are often extended with a year or two remaining on their previous contracts. And Lombardi doesn’t know how long these guys remain “restricted” any more than you or I do. This is the “Final League Year”. Without a new CBA by March 5th 2011, there’s no football. With one, any changes can happen, including (and perhaps especially) getting these guys out from under the “restricted” tender.

So I understanad your point, and could easily be wrong. It is certainly possible that the Broncos (and everybody else) will wait to give players new contracts until they absolutely have to. But Elvis Dumervil has outplayed and outperformed his current contract. If Mike Shanahan were still around, he probably would have extended Doom last year, as was his style, to extend guys in their final year.

The other point to consider is that by keeping Doom under tender, an offer sheet(s) will likely be made on him. Meaning, to match the offer, the Broncos will likely need to give him that raise anyway… but without the luxury of having him locked down for the long term.

So again, Kolb and Doom are not the same, Lombardi can’t see the future, and there are certainly advantages to locking up guys like Doom in the here and now. Anything could happen though, and we’ll just have to agree to wait and see

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 14, 2010 11:38 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Doom and Marshall both....

have outplayed and outperformed their contracts. I usually respect Lombardi greatly, but I think he’s dead wrong on this one. Kolb yes, Doom no way.

I think it would be a wise move for both Marshall and Doom to get what they deserve rather than playing the system….

Marshall will want more money than he’s worth, but we can undercut that a bit and fill it up with behavior based incentives for him to really need to perform.

I also think it’s HIGHLY unlikely that any team would offer up a 1st for KO, and getting Bradford is about as unlikely, so that is a moot point. KO will be our QB this year, and we can possibly get his replacement next year for alot cheaper. :)

"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Feb 16, 2010 7:26 AM MST reply actions  

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