In between: Another reason to root for Kyle Orton
I'm taking a brief break from my "Where we are. Where we're going" series to pose an opinion that has occurred to me over the past few weeks as I've been writing WwaWwg. I promise this will be short.
We, as fans, are subject to tunnel vision. Every day, I wake up, go about my daily routine, and read another post about Donovan McNabb, Sam Bradford, Tim Tebow, Jimmy Claussen, Julius Peppers, Vince Wilfork, Karlos Dansby, and the list goes on and on. How that player or combination of several of those players will get us over the hump an allow us to become contenders.
My biggest peeve is what I call "fantasy football". I'm not claiming that I don't do it. I'm not saying that it isn't fun to think about a bevy of top free agents all wearing orange and blue next season. I just think it's that mindset in February that leads to disappointment and confusion in May. Writing about the need to resign Brandon Marshall and Elvis Dumervil long term and then adding Wilfork and Peppers and Dansby to the mix - it just doesn't add up. Where am I going with this? Well, I have tunnel vision too. And it's with Kyle Orton.
I'm going to be bold and say that if I'm not MHR's biggest Kyle Orton supporter, I've yet to find a bigger one. I should say that, in terms of all-time favorite quarterbacks, after John Elway my favorite quarterback of all time is Craig Krenzel - a name most of you probably don't recognize. Krenzel was a hero for the Ohio State Buckeyes during their National Title run early last decade and only started a handful of games for the Bears before blowing out his elbow and never playing again. Krenzel was never the most talented guy on the field, he was unspectacular most games until he'd look down the barrel of a 4th and 14 or a 4th quarter deficit. Then he was unstoppable.
That's the kind of quarterback that I value. Unassuming, steady, and calmest when the pressure mounts highest. I think that's the kind of player Kyle Orton can be and the kind of quarterback he was earlier in the year in thrillers against Dallas and New England. Talking about quarterbacks is like talking about presidents. You hope to God for a good one and, even if you get one, you wind up wondering who's next. I've lived in Philadelphia for years and follow the Eagles to a small extent. You'd be amazed by the kind of genuine hatred McNabb is met with here. Every year they wonder "Who's next?" I don't want that to be us. I don't want to grab a top free agent or draft a QB early in the first round only to come to MHR this time next year with people wondering "Who's next?" Quarterback is the ultimate glamour position and every quarterback not on your team seems more glamourous than the one on yours.
I'm babbling, what am I getting at? Last post I projected Brandon Marshall could resign for 51M/6yrs with 18M guaranteed. I think that's fairly accurate - adding .5M a year to Roddy White's contract. Currently, I'm looking at what to do with Elvis Dumervil. I think mirroring James Harrison's 51.75M/6yrs with 20M guaranteed makes sense. Dumervil is younger than Harrison, but he hasn't led a Super Bowl winning defense or won Defensive POY. That's over 100 million dollars tied into the next 6 years, 38 million guaranteed, for two talented young players that most of us (at least in the case of Dumervil) are assuming we should try and get back. Now what about next year? We'll have a better idea of what the future of NFL contracts will be by then, but, if the salaries of veterans isn't overly different, we have Champ Bailey to worry about. Now, he probably won't demand 6 years (3 or 4 is more probable) but he'll have every right, as one of the Top 5 in the NFL at his position, to seek that kind of salary - which is in excess of 12 million per year. That's just our own players. I'd like to see Eugene Amano come in this year. With him, I'd look at something in between the 29.5M/5yrs and 25M/5yrs that the Dolphins gave Jake Grove and Justin Smiley over the past 2 off-seasons. Karlos Dansby supporters? He'll no doubt look at Jonathan Vilma's 34M/5yr extension with New Orleans that has 17M guaranteed. Julius Peppers lovers? He was insulted that the Panthers only wanted to make him the leagues highest paid defensive player by a slight margin.
This is just another reason to support Kyle Orton. Does it make sense to tender him this season rather than extend him long term? Yes. Should we keep an eye on Tom Brandstater? Yes. Hell, I think it's worth it to bring in a 3rd QB in the latter rounds of the draft and see how he develops. But it's worth it, in my mind, to hope that Orton solidifies his position as Denver's QB for 2011 and beyond. In a much earlier post - I dropped these stats.
Com Att Pct. Yds Yds/Att TD INT 20+ Yd Plays 40+ Yd Plays
QB1 19.8 31.8 62.3 251.3 7.9 1.7 .9 3.8 .8
QB 2 22.4 36.1 62.1 253.5 7.0 1.4 .8 2.9 .6
QB 3 17.6 29.1 60.5 193.4 6.6 1.4 .8 2.2 .3
These are the per game stats of 3 NFL QB's in 2009. QB1 appears to be the most aggressive big-play threat (albeit slightly more INT prone) with each of the next two quarterbacks a little more tentative. The least threatening of the three (and least accurate) is QB 3. That's Carson Palmer. QB 2 is Kyle Orton. QB 1 is Eli Manning. As I said in the original post, I divided Orton's stats by 15 instead of 16 which I don't consider cheating considering he missed pretty much an entire game between the second half of the Washington game and first half of the San Diego game.
The two biggest numbers: The contracts of the other two quarterbacks
Carson Palmer: 118.75M/6yrs
Eli Manning: 106.9M/7yrs
For what? Big names? Madden ratings? I believe that those numbers have more to do with who those players are and not what they do. Even if Kyle Orton were to throw for 4,000yds 25TDS 10INTs and lead us to the playoffs he'd still be considered by the rest of the NFL as a "system-quarterback". There's a stigma against "steady" quarterbacks in the NFL, but I'm not buying it. Say McXanders wants to extend Orton long-term after a great 2010 (I'm being hypothetical here). Even if they more than doubled his salary, what would he earn? 6M a year over 5 or 6 seasons? That's a whopping 9M/yr less than Carson Palmer. That's 9 million a year to invest in the contracts of a few solid starters or one big time free agent. Think about it. That's Kyle Orton AND Brandon Marshall for less money than Carson Palmer is getting paid to hand the ball off for a one-and-done team. That's money to use to run the ball, stop the run, reload our secondary. That gives us an advantage over other top teams who are forced to tie-up big money in their quarterbacks.
Football is the ultimate team sport. Perfect pass protection and a perfect pass means nothing if the receiver drops the ball. A nose tackle handling a double-team means nothing if the linebacker misses the tackle. If I could ask anything of my fellow MHR's it is to appreciate the job getting done, not if looks pretty. If Kyle Orton keeps it up, we'll be able get a bargain on a very good quarterback and have the money to build a better team around him. That's good news for all of you who love "fantasy football".
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Amazing post Vortex. Rec'd.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
"I think we’re past that. I love the city of Denver. I started there and I’d like to finish there." - Brandon Marshall at the 2010 Pro Bowl
Glorious and Brillant Vortex.
I only wish the haters would read and understand this. While I think there is some credit to the idea that a superstar quarterback will get your further in the playoffs than a scrub, it’s impossible to state that as a fact. Like I’ve said a million times before, all the “elite” quarterbacks were not elite until they won the big dance. Peyton Manning is the ONLY exception to that rule, he has been a modern football god since 1999 (even when he doesn’t do anything impressive). Take these names for example.
Ben Roethlisberger
Tom Brady
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Brett Favre
None of these guys were considered pure all-star quarterbacks until they got a ring. Yes people, there was quite a few that considered Brees in the echelon lower than Manning, Brady etc etc.
Super stars are not born that way, they have to work for it. Everyone cries about having a “franchise” quarterback BEFORE you win the Super Bowl, but I argue that the only way to become a “franchise” quarterback is by winning the Super Bowl.
John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)
Formerly known as Calijoefornia
by Joe Medina on Feb 14, 2010 5:08 PM MST reply actions 10 recs
I've been a creeper here for a couple weeks.
I haven’t said much, but I’ve been following.
John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)
Formerly known as Calijoefornia
rec'd Joe
perfect statement
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 14, 2010 9:07 PM MST up reply actions
That is smartest thing I've ever hear anyone say about anything....
…I’m not totally serious, but there is a great amount of truth in there!
3 of those 5 QB's won the SB on their first year in the league...
I don’t get your point.
Point of Correction
None of them won the Super Bowl in their first year.
Favre – drafted 1991, won 1996
Warner – joined SL 1998, won 1999
Brady – drafted 2000, won 2001
Brees – drafted 2001, won 2009
Roethlisberger – drafted 2004, won 2005
The earliest any of them won it was in their second season.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 16, 2010 9:00 AM MST up reply actions
My mistake...
I didn’t look it up, but I thought Roethlisberger was a rookie that year, and I thought Warner was fresh out of the Arena league. I knew Brady wasnt a rookie, but it was his first year as a starter…
Either way, I would say that all 5 of them were pretty highly regarded (Franchise QBs) within 4 years of joining the league. With or without the SB. The exception being Brees, but that was because of Injury and SanDiego stupidity.
well, let's not let the current players position cloud the judgement.
I live in Massachusetts, and from what my Patriot fan friends tell me, people here really didn’t even like Tom Brady until 2002. Even when he won the Super Bowl with them in 01, people still wanted Drew Bledsoe back. Like I said, superstars weren’t superstars until they proved their salt.
As for Big Ben, I’m not sure why you keep letting his current status cloud the truth. The year Pittsburgh won with Big Ben behind center was 2005. In the 2005 season, Ben Roethlisberger threw for 2385 yards, 17 TD’s and 9 INT’s. Those aren’t the numbers of a big booming quarterback. Those are the numbers of a “game manager”. If Orton put up similar numbers and won the Super Bowl, you would claim that the defense and running game carried him to it. Don’t make it a double standard. Big Ben helped win the game, but you are absolutely crazy if you think he is THE reason why they won in 2005, his second year in the NFL.
As for Kurt Warner, not everyone gets lured from working in a grocery store to be a quarterback for an NFL franchise. While Kurt Warner put up quite amazing numbers as a throwing quarterback, he also had the safety valve called Marshall Faulk helping to keep defenses honest. You find me a quarterback that doesn’t rely on the run game and I’ll show you a quarterback that will never win the Super Bowl. Not even Peyton Manning and his bottom of the barrel run game in 2009 won the Super Bowl.
So miner, without making it a pissing contest, I’ll make my point bluntly. There is no time limit for becoming a franchise type quarterback. To say that you need to be a bonafide franchise guy within 4 years seems like a pretty fair rule, but why the hell won’t you grant Kyle Orton another 3 years with Denver to prove himself? Even Drew Brees moved from his first city where he was considered only slightly above average. Now he’s elite. Do you think it was a mistake? If a coach gives enough time and faith in his quarterback, he WILL be successful. Give Kyle Orton that chance and stop the double standard.
John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)
Formerly known as Calijoefornia
Comparing 2009 to 2005 for QB's is night and day
In 2009 11 Qb’s threw for over 4000 yards and 18 QB’s threw for atleast 20 TD’s.
In 2005 2 QB’s threw for over 4000 yards and 11 QB’s thew for at least 11 TD’s.
Simply put you cannot compare what Roethlisberger did in 2005 as to what Orton did in 2009. The rules have been forever changed and trying to draw comparisions isnt going to support one arguement either way.
Also, your last sentence about giving the QB enough faith and time and he WILL be succussful is abit of a crap shoot. David Carr was given 5 years to become a good QB. Joey Harrington, Mike VIck, Brian Griese were all given chances and never succeeded.
At this point it we dont know what we have in Orton. If he succeeds here next year awesome, but by no means is that a given.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Feb 16, 2010 12:18 PM MST up reply actions
Agreed that you have to be careful comparing one year to another
About the crapshoot, the only QB I would go to bat for is Carr. He had 5 years with Houston, but for three of those years, he led the league in sacks, and most of the reporting I saw at the time blamed that on his o-line.
Kinda hard to be good when you’re running for your life and/or laying on your back.
I especially agree with:
At this point it we dont know what we have in Orton.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 16, 2010 12:28 PM MST up reply actions
Dude...Chill out.
I was just pointing out that the QB’s that you listed became “franchise” type QB’s pretty fast, if not in their first year as a starter. I also never said that I expect him to do anything alone. Yes, all great QB’s have to have some supporting cast if they want to win a SuperBowl. See John Elway. #7 was a Franchise QB long before he won a superbowl.
I am not calling for KO to get the boot, but to answer your unasked question, I don’t see him as a potential “Franchise” qb. As has been stated elsewhere on this thread, non-athletic guys can be great QB’s if they have other qualities. See Dan Marino, Joe Montana, Dan Fouts. None of these QB’s were particularly great ahtletic specimens, but they made up for it with leadership, intelligence and throwing ability.
What does KO have to set him apart. He is a statue in the pocket with no escape ability. When he does run he is slow and tends to fall down. He is not a particularly accurate passer. He doesn’t have a particularly quick release. He has an ugly long ball (note I am not saying that he cannot throw it, but it is rarely on target). In short, he is an average NFL QB. That is no slight, there are only 32 of those in the world and being #16 is nothing to be ashamed of.
The thing KO has going for him that will keep him as a quality journeyman QB in this league for a long time is that he is a good guy in the lockerroom and he has zero ego.
That being said, I think the KO that you saw this year was pretty much what you are gonna get out of him. He will play well and put up some numbers, but he will not be the deciding factor in a game. That is great for a team that wants to go between 8-8 and 11-5 and maybe win a game in the playoffs here and there. With a great supporting cast, he could some day win a superbowl.
Im sorry, I just don’t see him as a “Franchise QB”.
I think its far too early to say he isnt
No one knows what the future will bring.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
same with Orton.
John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)
Formerly known as Calijoefornia
I'm cool with that
Doesnt change my opinion nor will it change yours, but its a true
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Maybe, maybe not...
The jury is still out. He has the tools, the question is whether he will choose to grow up and use them.
Yes he was. Some quarterbacks, there is absolutely zero questioning it.
I don’t think anyone would ever doubt that Marino was the franchise for Miami as well during his time. I’m just making a point that in this day and age, the “franchise” quarterback is such an overused term and it has almost zero significance anymore. People want the franchise to come to them, no one is willing to let their existing quarterback be the franchise with time.
John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)
Formerly known as Calijoefornia
Nice post V7
You may be the biggest Orton fan here, but I think I’m running a close second. LOL
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Nice post!!
I have been on his bandwagon since he came in. and I have no intentions of leaving.. there’s plenty more seats folks hop on for the ride and get a drink of this tasty kool-Aid :)
by BroncoNation8908 on Feb 14, 2010 8:02 PM MST up reply actions
Not into kool-aid
but I’ll come along for the ride anyway if you’ll let me
I am a HUGE KO fan too.....love a team first player who takes it on the chin and never says me but us...
Cant get why people dont see that we have a winner in him!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Feb 14, 2010 9:01 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
2-8 in the final 10...
I too love a team first player…but I prefer to watch the Broncos win games.
Can't blame all 8 of the losses on Orton though. Not even close.
Like the last game of the year, when basically the defense had every inch of their collective behinds handed to them. Kyle Orton didn’t give up over 200 yards rushing did he? I didn’t think so.
John Clayton is the head Dean at Fail University (known as F.U. in short)
Formerly known as Calijoefornia
Cutler got far too much blame for the collapse of 2008. The 2008 D was much much worse than the 2009 version. It is a hazard of being a QB I suppose.
Much like a big reason Denver started 6-0 was great coaching, a big reason why we went 2-8 down the stretch was due to bad coaching and poor game day planning. Not Orton’s fault – well maybe KC was, but not the other games.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Orton wasn't lined up against Jamaal Charles and his 2700 yard day
Kyle racked up 430 yards and 25% of his interception total in that game by trying to do to much to make up for the lack of run defense.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Elvis.. come one
Thats a double standard you know it. Cutler was in INT king when he had a a sieve like defense in front of him but Orton is absolved of all blame?
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Come on yourself... I didn't realize we were talking about Cutler
There can be no double standard when there is no double subject. Cutler can see his way out of the discussion since he was never in it to begin with.
Kyle made many mistakes that day, but there’s never an excuse for a 250+ yard rusher either.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
fine..
I didnt realize your the juge and jury on all topics now.
you introduces Jamal Charles to the conversation to prove your point. I introduced Cutler.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
No, there's a difference
I’m not banging my gavel and saying no new names can be brought in to a conversation.
You said I made a double standard. I did not. I never brought up Cutler. That’s all.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Alex...You just did say that someone couldn't be brought up.
“Cutler can see his way out of the discussion since he was never in it to begin with”
What are you the blog police?
It was a misinterpretation. As in, I meant it to be interpreted in another way. As in, I clarified that I didn’t mean to bang a gavel and say that, “no new names can be brought in to a conversation.”
Look officer, I was saying that he implied I made a double standard. I did not, as I never even brought up Cutler. My words were not meant to mean that nobody is ever allowed to bring a new name into a debate.
My words were meant to say to him that, “You said I made a double standard. I did not. I never brought up Cutler. That’s all.”
How many more ways do I need to say it? Do you get it yet? I already clarified my position. I clarified that he said I used a double standard. I said I didn’t. When it was misinterpreted from other than intended meanings, I clarified. Get it yet?
It was over. That’s twice in this post you’ve come barking at me. Do you like to argue? If so, pick another topic. This one was closed long before you butted in.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
by Alex on Feb 17, 2010 5:49 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Ummm...If you scroll up you will see that this entire conversation is in response to a comment that I made...
McG brought Cutler into the discussion before you even joined. You brought up that Orton couldn’t be blamed for the crappy defense that day and Johhny pointed out, relatively politely i might add, that it was done all the time to Cutler, just like McG said.
If I have “Barked” at anyone, I am sorry. What I was doing here was bringing reality into a bit of a heated kerfuffle in hopes of…I don’t know what. I guess I should just not care what people say in anonymous chatrooms. Lesson learned.
As for my butting in, if you would like me not to correct you, don’t make belittling condescending statements. You are the one that jumped into this conversation and picked a fight with Johnny and you are the one with the DP worthy comment to JJr7 below. Beyond that, I don’t recall having to approve all of my comments through you, so I will comment on anything please.
That being said, I think I will follow your advice in the future if I feel the urge to respond to you.
“I’ll never change his mind, and I don’t feel I can learn from the exchange.”
Truer words have not been spoken.Thank you for your interest though.
Blah, blah, blah
Your reason that because somebody else brought up Cutler above my comment… that I couldn’t go in an opposite direction… or would risk creating a double standard. Cough, cough, BS.
I never created a double standard, and your holier than thou personality had nothing to do with the conversation until you felt the overwhelming need to make, what I consider to be, an incorrect correction.
We can agree, though, that neither of us will change the other’s mind. You think I’m rude. I think you are annoying. I guess we can just agree to ignore eachother’s comments.
Thank you for the comments officer.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
okydokysmoky
I look forward to not hearing from you in the future.
Cheers!
Those Pick-Sixes were on short-medium passes with us still in the game
It was just a flub, not some spectacular effort to make up for the defense.
The first was on 1st and 10 in the 3rd Q down 20-17. He floated one all of 20 yards down field to get picked.
The second was a dumpoff to Dan Graham for less than 5 yards. We were down by 6 at that point with 10min to play.
That one put us down by 13 and Charles had the 56 yard TD after that. Then Orton started heaving it up for grabs and would have had some justifiable picks.
He had a bad day for interceptions, nothing more… When you throw the ball almost 60 times in a game and you are not particularly accurate, you are gonna throw some interceptions.
OK, no argument
Orton had a bad day, but so did the defense. Like I said, that day allotted for 25% of the years total interceptions. He’s allowed to have a bad day.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
To expand on Elvis' point just a bit
50% of Orton’s picks came in just 2 games: 3 vs Pittsburgh & 3 vs KC
The other 6 picks came in 6 different games — thus no game other than Pit & KC had more than 1.
Orton had 8 games without a single pick.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 16, 2010 3:42 PM MST up reply actions
That is a fine point...but who cares if it doesn't result in wins??
I don’t think ANYONE will argue that KO is a quarterback who doesn’t throw many picks.
The problem is, that throwing zero picks in a game is not necessarily a good thing. I have already posted the numbers elsewhere that show that we won those first six games based on Defense. We scored 6 fewer Points per Game than other teams that went 4-2.
Lets look at the numbers over the last 10 games.
0 INT games
Baltimore L 30-7
*Washington L 27-17
Oakland L 20-19
1 INT games
SanDiego L 32-3
NewYork W 26-6
KansasCity W 44-13
Indianapolis L 28-16
Philladelphia L 30-27
3 INT games
Pittsburgh L 28-10
KansasCity L 44-24
I would argue based on this data that it is better for the Broncos as a team when Kyle is throwing at least 1 interception. Obviously it is difficult to win when you throw 3 interceptions, especially if 2 of them are returned for TD’s.
Throwing 0 INT’s is a nice Statistic, but it will not win you football games.
Playing not to Throw an INT is very much like Playing not to Lose. The AVERAGE score of the winning team in the broncos last 10 games was 27.9pts. The Broncos put up that number only 1 time and averaged only 19.3 over the last 10 games. It is hard to win if you don’t translate the efficiency into points.
*Washington is a tough game to read. KO was throwing out of character that day so it is hard to see what it would have looked like if he hadn’t been hurt.
That is why we got our asses kicked at home to maybe the worst team we played in 2009.
A total team meltdown. KC was a nightmare and a horrible way to end the season. Other than Gaffney, Moreno, Prater and maybe another player or two, it was a pathetic performance by the rest of the team and the coaching staff.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
No argument there
We got owned in every aspect of that game. A total embarrassment. One I hope that we don’t have to experience very often.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 16, 2010 3:58 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah,
I’m not arguing that either. Orton had a bad day. The defense had a bad day. It was an ebarassing day. My original point was that Orton didn’t line up against Jamaal Charles; there’s plenty of blame to go around rather than to stop at Orton’s feet.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
No he didn’t line up vs Charles.
All Kyle did was throw two TDs to the other team. Turning a 6 point loss into a 20 point loss.
We would have lost either way. But man was Kyle awful in his last game of the season. Not the kind of improvement we were looking for.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Not necessarily...
We were only down by 3 and 6 points when he threw those INT’s.
Without them, we probably don’t go into panic mode and start throwing the ball every down at 10 minutes of the 4th qtr, the game is up for grabs.
I hope not.
We need Clady (he quit), Champ (garbage), Graham (worst game as a Bronco), DJ Williams (quit), Dawkins (garbage), Kuper (quit), Davis (aloof), Fields (garbage), Elvis (garbage) and several others that played like garbage, or disinterested or aloof in that game.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
And don't forget the Coaching staff...
They quit before the game even started. Most of them are gonna be here.
He did throw two pick 6's
You can’t blame that on the defense.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I don't...but it is still hard to call him a "winner" when the team tanks over the last 10 games.
And that goes both ways. The Broncos won UGLY the first 6 games of the season with a lions share of the credit going to that same defense.
29-18 as a starter
It’s not too hard to call him a winner at all.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein
I couldn't care less about his record with Da Bears.
I am a Bronco Fan and I see a spectacular 6-0 start and an epic failure 2-8 finish.
Brett Kern was 14-2 last year…Is he a winner too? That is no knock on Mr Kern who is a good punter, but as has been repeated over and over, this is a team sport.
At this point, KO is part of a team that TANKED the last 10 games of the season.
One example of a lose and that's all I'll provide, if you all want more then look them up.
The Eagles game in Philly. Marshall had the dropsies all day in that game, so I guess it’s Kyle fault because he threw too hard. Marshall wasn’t the only one either.
i love me some Orton too
seems like a great deal of potential.
"Devin Setoguchi’s haircut has released the dragon" ~Drew Remenda
by Jay Fin Anderson on Feb 15, 2010 9:19 AM MST up reply actions
i see ur argument for orton
And as one of the “haters” I think u brought up plenty of good points. My problem with him tho is not just numbers. So many times you see orton take a sack when he can buy a second or two running. Some times he makes a bone head throw that brings to question his “game manager” title. But by far the biggest problem I have with him is his inability to throw he ball deep. I remember best the eagles game. Orton threw only 2 deep ones, and both were ducks. One shouldve been a TD to BMash after he beat Sheldon, and the other was one to schef that was picked off and let scheff out to get nailed.
That’s why I’m not his biggest supporter. However, I think he is our best option in 10, even if we draft a QB at 10.
by DBroncs1414 on Feb 14, 2010 5:21 PM MST via mobile reply actions
I lost a little faith in Orton over the last couple games.
With that being said, I think that there may be a huge improvement in the coming year from him. If we went after Claussen or Bradford at 10/11 I wouldn’t throw the remote through the TV by any means, but I feel comfortable with Orton leading us the next couple years.
I think that a lot of the finger tip sacks, and some of the other problems he had were from not being comfortable. This system is a 2-3 year learning curve, and I certainly wouldn’t expect a QB who is in his first year, and over thinking rather than reacting, to perform any better than what Orton did. Add to that the lack of time (I can’t remember seeing Dlineman beat a QB to the spot on a 3-step drop before this year) and I think he’s done plenty to make me think he can improve and have a great season. I’m not saying he will, but I think it’s more likely than him regressing next year.
I agree with what you're saying
But I also recognize the fact that a lot of quarterbacks have those exact same problems. As somebody stuck watching Eagles and Giants and Jets games, I don’t see any difference between the way that Eli Manning feels the rush and the way Kyle Orton does. In fact, the reason that I chose to compare their stats is the fact that – while watching a Giants game – I thought to myself that Eli had happy feet in the pocket and seemed overwhelmed at times. I thought that Eli, even though he’s considered a very good quarterback (and is paid like an elite one) he couldn’t be much better than Orton. And I was right. Orton is still very young and hasn’t played nearly as much NFL football as Eli has. McDaniels said it himself in last week’s interview. Orton spent all of last off-season cramming in the offense. This off season he can work to get stronger and refine his over-all technique.
Unlike you, I was surprised by Orton’s arm in a positive way. Everybody said he was noodle-armed, but he has the ability to sling it. With some added strength I think he’ll be able to get less air under those passes.
I’m a very big Tom Brady fan. Obviously, I’d love a Tom Brady in Denver. But other then him, who else deserves the title of “elite”. Peyton Manning? Drew Brees? Maybe Big Ben and (ugh) Phillip Rivers are getting there but the point of my post is that when 80% of the league doesn’t have a player like that – you’re better served building around a very good quarterback rather than overpaying a slightly better one.
by Vortex7 on Feb 14, 2010 6:02 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
you touched upon an important Orton point, his "noodle arm"
I agree in saying he doesnt hav a weak arm, he can put some pop on the short routes. My problem with him though is his deep ball gets away from him all the time.
And although I dont like Eli, I think he is much better than Orton. He, unlike Orton, can spread the ball around, and doesnt get caught staring down a guy. And your right with the “elite” QB theory that John Clayton started, its false. However, I dont think we will be serious contenders until we can get a QB who is a deep threat and can get a safety out of the box, which would in turn, open our run game
more like noodle ankles
This is my main concern about Orton. I happen to agree with the scouting philosophy that health is a skill. Obviously, some injuries are unavoidable, but Orton has no shown in two consecutive seasons a predisposition for ankle injuries. And with his lack of mobility, even on healthy tires, his ankle problems are a real concern. I think at least some of his issues with touch on the deep ball can be traced to an inability to fully step up and make those type of throws. That being said, I agree 100% with the post, but I think investing some $ in a quality backup is an absolute necessity. And that money must be accounted for in any financial assessment of the QB position.
by MGM on Feb 14, 2010 7:44 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
LOL! Noodle ankles!
+1 & rec’d. I’m onboard with Orton as our QB and the only big concern I have is with his ankles. Can you imagine if we would have lost him for several games last year? Or half a season? We would have been cellar dwellers right alongside the Chefs & faiders.
I give Orton props for his ability to get back on the field and play through pain but we need to invest in a quality backup in case Orton’s ankle injuries persist into next year. If Orton can stay healthy, I see him surprising the league (and downright shocking the MSM) with both his #’s and his play as he truely gets comfortable with our complex system.
The knocks on Orton are very similiar to the knocks on Steve Young before he went to SF as well as the knocks on Brees before he went to NO. Young wasn’t just labeled a noodle armed QB in Tampa, he was deemed an outright bust. Looks like all of Young’s detractors spoke too soon. I guess detractors never learn.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein
Orton, Ankles and Training
In a recent interview, Josh McDaniels was very candid about the Broncos plans for Kyle Orton. His immediate future involves a heck of a lot of time in the weight room, the training areas and in the film work. Kyle Orton, for the first time since high school, is actually going to have a coach who drives him, teaches him and improves him. Those who want to assure each other that Orton can’t ‘carry’ a team may want to rethink their logic. Orton loves to work, is highly coachable and has yearned for decent training – something that his time in Chicago lacked severely.
There are two things, the saying goes, that you cannot coach. You cannot coach size and you cannot coach speed. Orton already has the size. While coaching size seems to require more in the way of either appropriate drafting or of pharmaceutical chemistry than it does coaching, the evolution of modern sports training, based on an ever-deeper understanding of neuromusuclar physiology, has made it apparent that we can, in fact coach speed as well as balance, power and endurance. There is a matter of degree involved, certainly, but it is now also possible to coach both quickness (explosion) and overall footspeed while improving balance and power. The basis of the solutions lies in the quest for Olympic Gold, and national respect.
Back in the mid 1980s, a delegation of trainers from the United States was taken to visit the then Soviet Union. Specifically, as part of the trip the trainers were able to visit with their Soviet counterparts and to learn why it was that the Soviet Union’s track and field competitors were able, at that time, to dominate in that area. As one US trainer would later say, “I wanted to learn how they got all of those white guys to run so fast.” They saw a form of conditioning that they had never imagined. The Soviet athletes were strapped into a harness that was connected to a device not unlike a car winch and they were ‘reeled in’ while attempting to continue to run. The basis behind this strange approach to training was described as the development of ‘overspeed’.
What is overspeed? Oddly, this concept has always been around in one form or another. Children use a basic form of it naturally when they run madly downhill much faster than they can run on a level surface, and without falling. Every parent has wondered at some point why it is that they don’t fall more often when they do so. The answer to that lies in a series of neurological ‘sensors’ that lie in our joints. They kick in to improve our balance, and they can be trained to do much more than that. The basic ability to maintain the balance is called ‘proprioception’. In this example, it is used to increase speed. You can do the same thing in running the 40 yard dash by leaning forward slightly farther than you would normally be comfortable doing. Given time and practice, you can ‘imprint’ the body’s neurology to run faster by fooling it slightly in this way during practice. This simple basic theory has a vast array of applications.
To demonstrate the concept for yourself, walk over to the nearest doorway. Place the backs of your hands against the door frame, face forward and begin to press into the frame with the backs of the hands, pushing on the door frame as hard as you comfortably can. Hold that pressure continuously for 30 seconds, and then relax. Step out of the doorway and stand, relaxed, with your hands at your sides, but do not hold them there. You will feel the arms begin to lift on their own accord. You have used a certain form of resistance effectively to teach your body to make a movement without conscious effort. That is, in its simplest essence, one of the concepts behind the development of overspeed.
What you have done is very simple: You overloaded the neuromuscular connections in the arm. In addition to simple resistance, you created a situation where the muscles were trying to work beyond their abilities. When the resistance is removed, they begin to ‘work’ on their own accord. This seemingly simple concept has some far-reaching ramifications.
For example, runners have been using overspeed to train at high levels for decades now. If you carefully watch a tape of Carl Lewis running the 200 meters you will see that at about the halfway point he will suddenly begin to draw away from the other runners, as if he is reaching another ‘gear’. He’s not – what is really happening is that most of the athletes are automatically beginning to switch over from their fast twitch muscle fibers firing, which they have trained themselves to use in the beginning of the race, to slow twitch muscle fibers firing, the ones that we use in endurance. Doing so will slow you slightly from your optimum level of speed. Lewis, like many great athletes, had a larger than normal preponderance of fast twitch fibers. Even more unusually, he was able to use them consciously throughout the entire event. Long ago (when there was still a Soviet Union), by starting with that simple level of understanding, the Soviets decided to attempt to teach their athletes how to use their fast twitch fibers, and to use them more efficiently. The effectiveness was tremendous. Since this concept was, at that time, usually used in track and field, the Soviets in the late 60’s through the early 80’s had begun to dominate world track and field events.
When the US delegation was visiting the Soviet Union, they were teaching the use of overspeed by attaching the runner to the kind of winch that you bolt to/near the grill or back end of a vehicle. They then literally cranked their athletes back in while the athlete strove to overcome the force. More modern approaches using resistance bands and similar devices have since been developed, but whatever the technology, the ability to develop overspeed is an essential piece to maximizing athletic performance.
When the body learns a movement, a neuromuscular ‘pathway’ is developed. With repetition, it gets smoother, more fluid. Through the use of certain forms of resistance, you can teach the body to perform that movement more efficiently. That’s the basis of most physical training. What set the overspeed concept aside was that the advanced use of resistance taught the body how to develop that pathway more effectively and to maintain it’s fast twitch response throughout the exercise.
Remember that many other techniques, such as plyometrics, take advantage of the same neuromuscular re-patterning as overspeed. The techniques of such world-class trainers as Loren Seagrave, Smith and many others are essentially linked on this level, although there are individual differences that may benefit certain athletes. In all of them, the physical explosiveness is improved by establishing neuromuscular pathways that permit faster and easier muscular firing. That increases explosiveness, but is only the 1st aspect of the training. Secondly, the body is ‘fooled’ into accepting the process of continuing fast-twitch muscular firing throughout certain activities (such as the 40 yard dash) instead of switching to slow-twitch muscle activity, as the body is generally inclined to do. This creates an increase in speed throughout the activity, not just at its start. Seagrave, for example, takes this myth on directly with his Speed is a Skill training series. http://www.nwaswimaths.com/programs/VIDEOS2.pdf
Chip Smith was with the original delegation to the Soviet Union and has been one of the pioneers of overspeed training in the USA. He claims that he can add two or more repetitions on the bench press, two inches of vertical leap, 4+ inches on the broad jump and cut .2 seconds off of any player’s time in the 40 yard dash just by appropriate training in overspeed. His results over the years have shown that his players do improve by that much, a fact that earns him full classes of pre-Combine college football athletes year after year.
Major improvements in explosiveness, power, speed and balance can all be taught to anyone in their twenties or thirties using modern applications of overspeed and related training techniques. While you will always be working against the limits of human genetic abilities, you really can coach speed. In Orton’s case – you can increase use these types of approaches to improve his mobility, balance, strength, endurance and power. He can strengthen his ankles, but also develop the combination of strength and balance within his movements to prevent him from going down from a ‘shoestring’ tackle. He will never look like a Michael Vick leaving the pocket, but that’s not his job anyway. His job is to be able to get through the season with less injury, more velocity on the ball when he wants it and a better ability to move – in or out of the pocket. Those are very realistic goals.
The idea that some have suggested, that Orton is somehow too ‘old’ to develop different skills is inaccurate, based on three things – NFL history (this has happened too many times to be ignored), medical fact and my own history of teaching adults. If you want to consider NFL history, start with Bill Walsh’s career and move on from there. Several QBs in their mid to late 20’s thrived under him. People forget that Orton is quite young in NFL terms. He will not become a scrambler, but that’s not the offense. We need him to move better in the pocket and to hold up better when hit. Both are reasonable and attainable goals.
Keep something in mind: Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are two of the best QBs to ever play the game. Neither is particularly mobile. Both, however, move their feet quite a bit within the pocket. You probably heard someone claim that during the Super Bowl, Manning developed ‘happy feet’. That was a nice observation, but it was also completely inaccurate. What was being seen is that he moves his feet often so as to be able to throw with decent to excellent mechanics in any direction that he may suddenly require. That’s one thing that Orton is certainly going to work on.
He’s always had the reputation of being early to the weight room and late to leave, so that part won’t be new. He will probably learn something that John Elway’s teammates always knew, however – for Elway (and Brady had to have a key made for him, as when he reached the Pats he often arrived and/or left before and after the janitorial staff – and that’s not a joke), training was a year-round experience. He was usually in better shape than players much younger, often bigger and generally faster. His workouts were legendary around the training facility and a lot of players couldn’t handle them. Orton will learn that kind of training from Josh McDaniels and from Rich Tuten, who is finally being permitted to train players the way that he has wanted to for quite a while. That’s a great combination.
Orton will use these and many other types of techniques increase his strength, endurance, balance and power over the next few years. Power, in this case, is the ability to take that strength and balance and transform it into effective action, whether that action is running, holding within the pocket or throwing. In addition, he’ll have another year at the least to work on mechanics, footwork and his analysis of the defenses. It’s very difficult to look at the improvement that he made in a single partial year under McDaniels and not see that he’s going in the right direction. Instead of a rookie QB with a high price tag and an uncertain future ability to move up to the NFL level, Denver has a starting QB who is excellent ‘material’, has a very strong work ethic and is finally getting the coaching that he has needed for a long time to turn potential into performance.
I’ve read comments claiming that “If Orton hasn’t developed those skills by now, he never will.” Such comments are based in an essentially negative viewpoint of the world and/or an utter lack of understanding of human training capabilities and curves. Since Aaron Rodgers, after putting up great numbers in 2008 spent the entire offseason just on footwork and mechanics (while maintaining strength and flexibility) and since both Drew Brees and Peyton Manning worked on developing aspects of their game that they and the coaches felt were less than optimal in that same offseason, and if McDaniels and Belichick both laugh when people talk about Tom Brady’s game (prior to the injury) as being somehow fully developed since neither or them (nor Brady) considered it to be anything of the kind, it’s obvious that this belief is singular to those who don’t know as much about professional football and training athletes as those coaches and players do. It’s great for fans to hold opinions. I think that it’s even better if they study the facts that those opinions would otherwise be based on, but that’s just my perspective.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
by Doc Bear on Feb 16, 2010 4:52 PM MST up reply actions 14 recs
Well said, Doc
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 16, 2010 5:58 PM MST up reply actions
Nice to have a doctor in the house.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
Great job Doc...
I, too have read these comments from arm chair experts and have laughed.
I coach an athlete now that was considered too “old” in the sport at the grand age of 28. Now, the fact of the matter is, and any trained kinestiologist will tell you is that the male body peaks athletically between 28 and 34 years of age.
My athlete is riding better NOW than any time in his life and improves every day. We have changed his body mechanics and some subtle things in his performance that have lead to INCREASED and CONSISTENT improvements every week in the past 15 months.
If you are telling me a guy as dedicated cant make marked changes in his physical performance then you are smoking some great gear.
I would suggest people get educated a little on athletic performance, and the ability of the human body to respond when trained correctly, before making blanket statements to back up an argument that is poor in pure facts from the start.
I miss ya Doc……you were one of the very few sane and educated voices on here.
Peace my friend!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Thanks Doc
I don’t know if you are familiar with the Feldenkrais method, but it is another way of affecting dramatic physical changes in adulthood, through re-organizing the methods of movement and ‘recalibrating’ basic motions to be more efficient and powerful. Regardless, as you so thoroughly and eloquently stated, those who think any person’s physical development is over at the age of 27 are speaking out of pure ignorance. Thank you for showing that so completely.
I've used Feldenkrais and have a lot of respect for it
The principles are a little different than what I talked about in terms of how those recalibrations are performed, but it, too, has a very effective place in the toolbox of how we make our connection with our bodies more efficient and more comfortable. Thanks for bringing that one up, MGM
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
Hits pretty close to home...
I used to have major, career-threatening physical issues that have since evaporated upon serious work in the Feldenkrais method. Many people did not think that it was possible to overcome these issues. These are the same people saying that Orton will never be more physical capable then he has showed so far. Obviously it takes hard work, and a certain kind of training/ dedication (as you showed so beautifully), to dramatically improve one’s physical state, but I have little tolerance (particularly after first-hand experience) for the idea that it is impossible. Thank you again for your wisdom in these areas.
DBroncos...
He cant throw the ball deep? You are on crack my man. Cant throw the ball deep until patterns develop…that take as an O line to block and give him a pocket. it happened rarely. He never took 7 step drops which are needed for the magical deep ball you and others yearn for, that makes up about 10% of the passing game anyway.
Its like saying you hate a car that performs well, has good efficiency and costs nothing to run because the cup holders are not big enough.
MAKES NO SENSE!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Feb 14, 2010 9:04 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I was talking with Emmet Smith recently on some of your points
He reminded me that early on in the season, McDaniels had Orton moving out of the pocket to the right, and he was throwing the ball well in those moments. Orton an also work on stepping up in the pocket, but many times, he ddin’t have a pocket to step up into.
The deep throws are as much a part of the play calling as they are the QB’s ability to fling the ball a long ways. And yes they take time to set up.
Something else to think about, having the safeties up in the box would be Orton’s dream, once he gets his timing with his receivers ingrained, and his receivers start exploding off the line, instead of sauntering off of it. Think about it, 9 guys up near the line. That would leave only 2 guys back to guard 2-3 WRs, a TE and a RB all coming out for passes.
Finally, IMHO, the idea of the long ball is seriously misunderstood, in regards to it’s importance. In 2009, only 10 QB’s had 11 or more plays that went for 40+ yards; Orton had 9. The next person in front of him — SB MVP Drew Brees with 11. It’s far more important that Orton and the offense master the abilities of sustaining drives, converting 3rd downs, and scoring points (especially in the Red Zone) than it is to get Orton to have more deep plays. I’d rather have Orton be able to, at will, hit a receiver in stride 12-15 yards down the field and have the receiver pick up an additional 5-7 yards. Think about what that would do for third downs & Red Zone scoring.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 14, 2010 9:23 PM MST up reply actions 12 recs
Rec'd your comment B
a lot of positive information there and it really makes sense. I’m with you on that one
well said.
it all comes down to style. KO does not have a slick polished style, and i think this sours many viewers to his play.
"Devin Setoguchi’s haircut has released the dragon" ~Drew Remenda
by Jay Fin Anderson on Feb 15, 2010 9:25 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Very well put my friend
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Feb 16, 2010 8:10 AM MST up reply actions
Absolutely
I was watch highlights from the Dallas game (yes, I’m that lonely) and remembered, with us down 10-7, Orton rolling out and planting a bullet on Eddie Royal while getting roughed for an additional 15 yards. The mobility is in him. Mobility can be taught. Brady and Cassel both came out of college as statues. The belief that Cassel was a runner just because he ran some draws in New England is inaccurate.
I agree 100% about the hitting receivers in stride instead of launching the ball down field. That’s how this offense is set up – not with the deep ball. People who are looking at free agency and the draft – think of this. Last off-season, we drafted Tom Brandstater. Brandstater’s pre-draft scouting reports described his positives being his ability to make pre and post snap reads, routinely checking to this second and third reads, and above-average accuracy and zip on short, intermediate, and timing patterns. His weaknesses were a good but not great arm, limited mobility, and difficulty against the rush. Very similar strengths and weaknesses as Kyle Orton. Maybe Brandstater is a little more physically gifted, but the comparison is there. There is an obvious mold to McDaniel’s quarterbacks. 6’4+, smart, accurate, good arm strength is necessary but not great, mobility can be taught. Tom Brady, Matt Cassel, Kyle Orton, and Tom Brandstater all fit that mindset so I have little use for people looking at such and such who has a cannon for an arm or is dangerous out of the pocket. There is a mold. It is’t hard to see. Guys like Tebow, LeFevour, McCoy, Claussen, Skelton, they don’t fit it as far as I can see.
by Vortex7 on Feb 16, 2010 10:47 AM MST up reply actions 4 recs
great post.
I also hate the who’s next mentality when things aren’t following the “fantasy football” expectations of some fans. I recall many clamoring for Simms during the beginning of the season even when Orton was doing well. McNabb may be a proven starter but so is Orton. McNabb may have more glamorous stats but who is to say that his first year in a complicated McDaniels system would fare any better than Kyle’s did. I personally think Kyle has not hit his ceiling yet and I hope next year shows us some more continued progress. Great job.
by BroncoMath101 on Feb 14, 2010 5:46 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I can’t remember exactly when you started making fanposts with regularity and when you started bring “the goods”, but all I can say Vortex, is that I find myself nodding in agreement with just about everything you have to say.
Keep up the good work!
I’m with you on Orton, he deserves and will get another year in this system, and I will be completely lacking in the surprise department when he comes out on fire next year. I’m already looking forward to it. Oh, and if I’m wrong about the Neckbeard, I feel like Brandstater is perfectly capable of being a starting QB after his year on the bench.
totally with ya
I will be completely lacking in the surprise department when he comes out on fire next year.
and it will be great to watch the backpedaling… once again…
"Devin Setoguchi’s haircut has released the dragon" ~Drew Remenda
by Jay Fin Anderson on Feb 15, 2010 9:26 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
With ya brothu...Rec'd
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
Great stuff man
Wow, I had a recent post in which I too projected $8.5M per year for BM – and only $2.5M less in guaranteed money than you projected. I promise I didn’t copy your numbers =)
We’re pretty far apart on Doom’s numbers, though. I used the recent contracts of Ware and Suggs as a jump off point, more so than Harrision’s – largely due to their age of 27 each versus Harrison being 31 (Doom 26). I projected 6year/$64M, $40M guaranteed. Let’s just say that I hope your numbers are a lot closer than mine. Should be interesting!
I’m with you on Orton. I’ve not really taken a long term opinion on him yet. He did great last year and should continue to improve while the team improves. I think we’ll know better what the direction should be after next year. I certainly support him this year.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
excellent read
could not agree more
"Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
"We laugh to stave off madness."
Great job, rec'd
Upon reading this it would seem the Broncos have the NFL’s best kept secret in Kyle Orton, and it makes the Cutler trade look even more foolish on the part of the Bears. After one season I think his statistics reflect what kind of quarterback he can be. I have toyed with the notion of drafting a QB early, but I’m leaning more and more against it by the day. I too have been thinking about what a steady product Orton is, and while he’s not by any means a playmaker, he is consistent and can put up huge numbers if we have better interior pass protection.
I still want Tim Tebow, but we’ll save that talk for another day. If we can sign Orton and Marshall to a long term deal worth less than Carson Palmer alone, I think we should seriously consider pursuing Julius Peppers. As bad as our run D declined as the year wore on, so did our pass rush. I think Peppers will be looking for a similar contract to Dumervil, maybe more because as you said, the same amount was given to James Harrison.
Great post.
Peppers turned down a contract
2-3 years ago that would have made him the highest paid defender in the league. He made like $20M last year and in the $16M neighborhood the year before that. Yes, he’ll have to take a pay cut to go to a 3-4 and he obviously won’t make franchise tag money every year, but he’ll still command a King’s randsome. I would say in the $12M per year range.
I’m intrigued by the prospect, but I think the money is too much, especially considering we’ve already got Doom and a 1st round pick tied up at the same position.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Still,
I’ts a necessary move, and an uncapped year.
by Sayre Bedinger on Feb 15, 2010 7:13 AM MST up reply actions
I’ts a necessary move
It’s absolutely not necessary, it’s a luxury.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
How so?
Just because he is expensive it’s a luxury? We need to upgrade our pass rush significantly. Elvis Dumervil Produced, but if memory serves me correctly, the next highest sack total was five by Vonnie freakin Holliday!
If bringing in a guy like Peppers is a luxury, then so is drafting Rolando McClain, Dan Williams, or Dez Bryant.
Except for we need an upgrade at ILB, NT, AND we need a #2 receiver. Just my opinion. I think it is necessary to bring in Peppers.
by Sayre Bedinger on Feb 15, 2010 11:00 PM MST up reply actions
Just because he is expensive it’s a luxury?
Yes.
Except for we need an upgrade at ILB, NT, AND we need a #2 receiver. Just my opinion. I think it is necessary to bring in Peppers.
We can pay Pickett, McClain, Dez Brayant, and Orton for the cost of Peppers.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Opps, redone 2nd part, altough I'm sure you got what I meant =)
Except for we need an upgrade at ILB, NT, AND we need a #2 receiver. Just my opinion. I think it is necessary to bring in Peppers.
We can pay Pickett, McClain, Dez Brayant, and Orton for the cost of Peppers.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
I don’t know if that is accurate. If Orton got a new deal, his alone would be in the $8MM per year range, maybe higher. Top 15 1st round picks also have big cap numbers and we are talking two Top 15 picks. I would guess Pickett would be in the $5MM per year range.
I think Peppers would cost a Pickett and an Orton.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Even in Pickett's case
There was talk of GB franchising him. He is their top priority this offseason, just like Aubrayo Franklin was for San Fran. If Aubrayo Franklin is getting top five DT money for a year, so is Pickett.
by Sayre Bedinger on Feb 16, 2010 10:18 AM MST up reply actions
Grrr, I had to take a minute before replying to this
What the hell does this have to do with your argument that Peppers is a NECESSITY? We were talking about whether and why Peppers would be a luxury for us, rather than what you claim him… A NECESSITY. You asked if I think he’s a luxury becuase he’s so expensive. I very clearly said yes. Then you shift to McGeorge and discuss a very minor detail of my reasoning.
You shift back to the Pickett discussion that you and I have already had. You think he’s getting top-five money from Green Bay? Fine. Noted. We’ll see in a few weeks.
I don’t think GB pays $4.6M to Raji and $7M to Pickett this year. Both players are too heavy to switch positions and 11.6 is wayyyy too much to invest at the NT position long term. Franchising him isn’t out of the question, but it’s unlikely. As I’ve told you before, I don’t care what GB says about wanting to extend Pickett. It doesn’t pass the sniff test.
In fact, just to get passed this: I’ll put in my signature for a week, that ’Sayre’s the man’ (or something to that affect), if GB extends Pickett to a longterm guaranteed contract. But only IF, you agree to do the opposite when he doesn’t get that extension. We’ll consider a franchise tag as a tie and nobody wins (although I’m very tempted to just declare that he doesn’t get tagged either).
What do you say? Whether you’re confident enough to agree or not, let’s be sure to agree to disagree on Pickett and then wait until he signs. At that point, one of us will have a good case of the “I told you so’s”.
BTW, do you still consider Peppers as a necessity for Denver to bring in? Now that you realize every one of draft picks could be paid for the year instead of his salary? Or that his one year salary is comparable to many combinations of 3-5 guys combined?
Because as a reminder… That’s what this discussion derrived from; it was never about Pickett. It was about your crazy notion that Peppers is a ‘necessity’.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
How about I just admit that Peppers isn't a necessity
I don’t even know why you wrote this rant. I simply stated that I’ve heard Pickett could be franchised. Haha, no hard feelings man, I’m not trying to belittle anybody!
by Sayre Bedinger on Feb 17, 2010 7:17 AM MST up reply actions
Good enough
Sorry for the rant
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Very, very few expect Orton to be given an extension this year.
We can pay Pickett, McClain, Dez Brayant, and Orton for the cost of Peppers.
I’m not going to go into detail to break it down exactly, but off the top of my head, this should be in the general ball park (assuming Rolando and Dez go in the 11-14 neighborhood):
Pickett: $3.25M
McClain: $3.25M
Bryant: 3.25
Orton: $3M
Peppers: $13M
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
You are way too low on Pickett. Not many UFA on the market so the bidding for him will be intense.
Orton is taken out of the mix since he is going to get a $3MM tender if we went after Peppers or not.
BTW: I wouldn’t want Denver to sign Peppers. I don’t see how he fits the 3-4 and his engine runs hot and very very cold. I think his best days as an NFL player are in the rearview mirror. I think we’ll have better opportunities to spend that money in 2011 and beyond when we need to resign guys like Clady and Ryan Harris (maybe Royal if he comes back to life) to what will be very expensive deals.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Yeah, maybe I'm a little low on Pickett
But I don’t really think that’s the point. The point I was making is that you could have 3-5 guys for the price of Peppers. That’s 3-5 guys that we need versus Peppers being a luxury.
We agree on not signing Peppers. I like the idea and would love to try it out. But the position switch is too risky and for too much money.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
I still think Peppers would cost Denver a Pickett and one other starter.
Seeing as there will be very few UFA worth a darn, both those guys and any starter quality UFA for that matter, are going to be real real expensive in this uncapped season.
Those guys will end up on teams Dallas, Washington or other cash rich franchises than can take the one year financial hit to front load some mega deals.
I’ve been saying this since August. We will not be active in FA this season. I think we’ll try to add a few guys along the lines of Renaldo Hill caliber, but I don’t see us getting a Dawkins type star or high end starter. We need to work on LT deals for Elvis and Marshall because they are part of our future (which also assumes a new deal for Ryan Harris very soon). We can tender the other guys that are RFA. If we can’t get a QB in the 2010 draft, maybe we approach Orton in May about doing a two year deal.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
I've got no doubt that the "restricted" part of FA this year
Will artificially hike up salaries. But I see that as more of a 10%, or perhaps even a 20% hike in some cases.
Pickett is 30 and going into his tenth season. With the exception of two signing bonuses, he’s never in his life made $3M in a year. He averages around $2.25M over the life of his career.
So again, I could be a little low in my yearly salary estimate for Pickett, but I doubt that it’s going to be too badly off mark.
I guess the point I would be making if I was you, though, would be to say that if you inlude the necessary signing bonus, Pickett would be expensive in the first year. I couldn’t argue with that.
Although again, I don’t really think that takes away from the point I was making, that Peppers’ average salary would be huge and nearly unbearable for a team with our needs.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
And he is also about to be 30.
What DE ever got better at that age? He’d probably be great for a year or two, but then we’d be stuck with a cap killing deal in 2012 and beyond.
I’m a Bronco fan for life so that would suck.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
A note on Karlos Dansby
It seems he has 4 teams on his wish list. The new York Giants, Miami Dolphins, San Diego Chargers and Washington Redskins.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Like I said the day the trade tooke place...Ilovmesomorton!
What I really like is what Coach McDaniels seems to think of him. Just the way he talks about Kyle and his future with the Broncos even though he is an RFA says a ton.
I would say that tells us what McDaniels opinion of Orton is. I wouldn’t even mind if we signed him to a long term contract as opposed to a couple years. I also think it would make financial sense to do it now.
The QB position is set.
Excellent Post Vortex
I couldn’t agree more with all of your points.
Orton is a proven winner, a team first kind of guy, and he’s not gonna cost Carson Palmer or Eli Manning type of money which will help the team overall get better.
Great post vortex
call me a Supporton.
Hell, call me an athletic supporton. I can handle it…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 14, 2010 11:36 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
LMAO
Those are great tags Jeremy; maybe we should advocate their use in people’s signatures. LOL
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 15, 2010 1:35 AM MST up reply actions
Orton
I personally don’t have any issues with Orton playing QB for Denver for the next 4-5 seasons. The guy appears to be mentally tough and he can make plays. Going into the season, many of us were forced to support him because we had no other choice.
I know that I stated I would be happy and content if he could be consistently good throughout the season, showing improvement each week. I looked back at the years of guys like Eli and Roethlisberger and said, for the most part, those were 3600 yd / 23 TD / 14 INT types of QBs… and aside from maybe 1 huge season, that’s just what they have been… consistently good. Orton could be that type of QB and he was in 2009.
3800 yds / 21 TDs / 12 INTs / 62% Completion rate – that’s all good
The ground game was inconsistent and towards the last half of the year, the defense fell apart… which is what we have grown to be familiar with over the last few years.
Fix those two things and this team can win, they proved it this year.
Regarding Marshall – I get why many want him back, but I’d rather see them focus that $ elsewhere. Take that boatload of $ they would pay Marshall and bring in two other guys for that price.
I just fear the worst with Marshall. I fear what may very likely happen once this guy gets paid big money…
______
Mile High Mania
by Mile High Mania on Feb 15, 2010 7:36 AM MST reply actions 1 recs
Orton hears a boo.
In not for Elvis and Marshall, there was not a more underpaid player in the NFL last season than Kyle Orton.
The best case scenario is always the one where the guy that is currently on your roster is that player that you need to win the Super Bowl.
Orton has two problems (they are related) that I see preventing him from ever ascending into that category of great NFL QB. Kyle is injury prone and he lacks mobility thanks to a lack of athleticism. If Orton could scramble, make plays with his feet and more importantly avoid sacks that lead to injuries, I’d be all for Denver looking at him as a long term answer at QB. But this is a problem that can’t be fixed by coaching, experience or weight training. Athleticism is like height, it can’t be taught.
I go back to a 3rd and 3 late in the game in Philly with a tied score and Denver driving. We had the ball around the Philly 45. Orton rolled to his right, was not being pressured, but still threw a pass about four yards behind a wide open Eddie Royal who was 8 yards down the field. We punted on forth down and McNabb made his QB scramble the next drive to swing field position in what was ultimately the deciding factor in that game. The Orton misfire was the play that most great QBs make and the kind of play Orton doesn’t. Orton is a pretty darn good QB, but I believe his lack of athleticism will always prevent him from taking his game to an elite or even great level. I also think he’ll be a 12-14 game per year player thanks to some of the vicious hits he can’t escape from. For $1MM per season, I’ll take that ALL DAY LONG. For $7-8MM per season, NO THANKS.
BTW, I don’t think anyone in Cincy or New York would tell you 2009 was a career year for Eli or Carson Palmer.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
by McGeorge on Feb 15, 2010 7:56 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
I absolutely agree with you, McGeorge
You have really summarized your (and my) opinion about Orton very succinctly. I am very much OK with having him as our QB for the next two years, especially if a guy like Bradford or Clausen is learning behind him. If not, I’m willing to roll the dice with Brandstater or some other QB drafted in 2011 or beyond.
If Orton has a career year (or two), that means we get optimum trade value for him while only suffering a slight, very temporary drop at that position by starting the guy we picked.
I will argue strongly with people who believe his arm to be weak, but I cannot do the same for either his mobility or his ankles. Those are genuine weaknesses, and I can’t see any such things in any of the “elite” QBs (or at least, any such are offset by other abilities)
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
by Sharpe as a Tack on Feb 15, 2010 8:41 AM MST up reply actions
I too agree, but would like to make one comparison...
At least in terms of athleticism, I think Kurt Warner is a decent comparison to Orton. Looking at Warner’s career stats, when he was given a dominant offensive line and/ or strong complementary running game, he excelled at the highest level (3 super bowls, 1 won). When he didn’t have these advantages, he struggled and was often injured. Interestingly, Warner’s stats in his non-stellar years withe the Giants and Arizona, his stats are quite similar to Orton’s from the past 2 years (although he was always more of a down-field thrower). I do think that Warner has a better ability to scan the field and diagnose defenses, but we don’t yet really know Orton’s true capabilities in those regards- not after 1 year in this system. So, if Orton is given some of the advantages that Warner had, I think that some of our concerns about his athleticism and health may be allayed.
by MGM on Feb 15, 2010 8:56 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree with your comparison.
Orton may actually have more mobile than Dan Marino or Warner, but Dan and Warner were much more accomplished passers. Warner has (had) a great arm and great accuracy. Orton is pretty average in both categories. Orton has a stronger arm than the MSM gives him credit for, but it’s not a howitzer by any means.
Comparing Orton to Warner doesn’t seem accurate to me. I could just as easily make a false comparison to Scott Mitchell or Joey Harrington.
To be fair to you, I can’t think of any QB that Orton reminds me of.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
They are not similar...
in terms of arm strength, and deep touch. Nor are they similar in the ‘eyeball’ test- Warner at his best seemed in much greater command of the offenses he ran, and of his ball placement. However, they are similar in terms of the stats they put up without the advantages of a strong ground game and or offensive line. If Warner’s first years in the league had been 2002-2006, our regard of Warner in 2007 would not have been very different from Orton’s today, at least in terms of effectiveness. Obviously, his play style is also very different, generally hanging in the pocket and trying to make last-minute spot-on (and often very deep) throws. But, my point is that any ‘talented’ but immobile quarterback needs to be given certain other advantages in order to succeed, and there are many historical examples of this happening. Likewise, Warner’s injury prone label that he garnered in 2002-2006 (when he never started more than 10 games) disappeared once he got the protection he needed. My point in the comparison is that we have to see anything conclusive about his ability, or his injury proclivity.
I don’t see Orton as “talented” in other ways (arm strength, accuracy, deep ball, quick release, leadership, command of the game, etc) that other great but immobile QBs were.
Orton is just average to pretty good in those categories listed above. He doesn’t seem to excel in any one area of QB play. Warner did several things better than most other QBs in the league. Orton doesn’t do anything better than most NFL QBs that I am aware of other than throwing the ball away when pressured – which he does do very well without getting called for grounding or taking a sack.
I don’t know whom to compare Orton too, but it’s not Warner or Brees (which I’ve seen recently). Maybe Matt Cassel, but even that is a reach.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Not true
But this is a problem that can’t be fixed by coaching, experience or weight training. Athleticism is like height, it can’t be taught.
Anyone in a starting ballet class, martial arts class, what have you, begins as a klutz , but, if they keep at it, develop the necessary skills to be good at what they are doing. There is no reason that Orton can’t improve his agility if he works at it.
The prophet Elijah told Ahab that the dogs would lick his blood, and so it came to pass, as you would imagine, since only the successful prophets are remembered.
I'm afraid it is true.
Orton is 27 years old and has been a high level athlete all his life. He played a ton of ball at Purdue and he as a star high school QB. He is not a beginner at anything involving athletics. Quite the opposite.
If he were going to magically become a more mobile QB, it would have already happened years ago.
I appreciate your optimism, but it’s not very realistic in the face of the reality.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
by McGeorge on Feb 15, 2010 9:27 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe not realistic
Considering (as you point out) that it hasn’t happened yet, despite all the years of playing QB. But it’s not impossible to improve any motor skill with practice and lots of repitition. Maybe Orton doesn’t have time to do that, but if he did, he could get better.
The prophet Elijah told Ahab that the dogs would lick his blood, and so it came to pass, as you would imagine, since only the successful prophets are remembered.
The height comparison was not entirely accurate. Yes, someone can improve something like QB mobility, but if it hasn’t happened for Orton by now, it’s not going to. Any future improvements he makes in this area are going to be incremental and very small.
Orton has been an athlete for a long long time. He has had ample time to improve and as he is a smart guy, I’m sure he has spent a ton of time working on his mobility.
But by 27 years of age, Orton is what he is as far as athletic ability and mobility are concerned. All the ballet classes with Al Toon and Karate lessons with Jean Claude Van Dam won’t do much for Kyle at this point in his athletic career.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
I wonder.
What was the caliber of the coaching Orton has received when it comes to this?
I agree it’s a bit late to expect big changes at this point in his career but seeing how Chicago brings along their QB’s is there a chance that Kyle never really had any solid instruction when it comes to mobility?
Or at Purdue. No way. Kyle is not stupid and knows he lacks mobility. I’m sure he has worked on this his entire career. That is what pro athletes do, they try their best to improve their weaknesses.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
by McGeorge on Feb 15, 2010 6:39 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Good points McG!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Orton was moving around and making plays just fine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRKTh19Hrfk
How many plays does he need to make running around avoiding sacks ? Why is that our pocket passer we know can play well with time is forced to run around and be steve young ?
Would you say the same if Manning was on our team ? Would you expect manning to become Steve Young or would you say weve got to do a better job at protecting him ?
In the link provided are just a couple of plays made by Orton moving around . He was moving around just fine when we occasionally asked him to do it .
Orton threw on average 33 passes a game . What number of those should he be expected to be buying time with feet ?
Eddie Royal did not play against Philly he was out .
We tied up the game on the drive prior to Mcnabbs run . That run wasnt on the drive they scored on .
When we tied the game we had them pinned inside there own 10 yard line .We stop them quickly and we e get the ball at midfield and can setup for prater .
That run screwed us because it allowed them to pin us inside our own 10 . When we punted they got the ball back at at there win 45 and one pass was all it took to get into field goal range .
Now for that last drive we didnd convert but whats lost is that Orton did hit Lloyd for a first down that wouldve gotten us out from the shadow of our endzone and gave us some operating room, It was called back on a holding penalty on Kuper . From there its 2nd and long and 3rd and long from inside our own ten . On 3rd down Orton ran he didnt throw on that drive and almost picked up the first.
Your right. Maybe it was Lloyd that the pass was intended for. It know wasn’t Marshall and I don’t remember it being Gaffney. Maybe you remember?
I don’t want Orton to make more plays with his feet as much as I would like him to avoid taking some nasty shots. His lack of athleticism bothers me most in regards to getting injured.
But a Kyle Orton highlight package of handpicked plays is not evidence to suggest he is “just fine” at moving around. He is not. His footwork is not good and his escape-ability is well below average for an NFL QB. The guy really lacks mobility, regardless of your or my opinion of the man.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Orton completed every pass he threw on the final two drives of the Philly game . On the first we tied it up with a fg and on the second a holding penalty killed us .
The highlights I posted were all pre ankle injury and so it goes to my point about how much running around do you think he should do ? You claim not to want him to do a lot but the first half of the season when the line was playing better those are the types of plays he was making . The exact kind that you said he couldnt and in those highlights he showed good mobility and I thinks its clearly premature to say that an offseason of attention focused on those skills that he wouldnt improve much.
by Hoopforia on Feb 16, 2010 8:42 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Very good post, Vortex
I am of the opinion that due to the circumstances of his coming into Denver, plus at least a few legitimate concerns, people have more or less made up their mind what they think of Orton and want at the QB position.
They defend their position (for the most part) with fervor and emotion, and are unlikely to change their mind. I know where I sit — if someone else disagrees, that’s their perogative. I’m done arguing with the likes of jjr7, who throws down, maybe makes a few decent points but the vast majority of their opinion is full of vitriol drowning any sense, and then disappears. It will simply annoy me and bring down the discussion.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
by Sharpe as a Tack on Feb 15, 2010 8:46 AM MST reply actions
Good stuff.
The one thing that confused me— maybe I just missed the point— is the idea that Orton will be permanently cheaper than other front-line QB’s. This year obviously works to the benefit of teams, but I somehow doubt that’ll be a permanent condition. There will come a time when Denver is going to have to decide if he’s worth the monetary commitment you have to make to a long-term QB. Orton is a class guy an all, but I doubt he’s all about charity.
As for Orton’s competence, I marvel at how the extremes of both side of that debate are so sure of themselves. On the positive side, there is no doubt that the guy is chalk full of the intangibles you want in a QB. He’s clearly pretty tough, cerebral, hard working, has a team first mentality and his team responds to him (leadership). In general, he has shown he knows how to play this game. There are also great QB’s with similar physical limitations. Drew Brees doesn’t exactly have a howitzer strapped to his shoulder. If Orton and Tom Brady were to compete in a biathlon, the opening line would be even money. Donovan McNabb, at times, couldn’t hit elephant on a slant. The perfectly gifted QB simply fails to exist.
The argument, I guess, is whether he has the pure physical talent to pull his innate abilities over the hump. From my perspective, this question remains impossibly open. He certainly isn’t the most physically gifted guy, and I don’t see how you can’t worry at least a little about his tendency to panic and inability to manufacture plays in less than ideal situations. Yet in this debate, every one of us is deprived of the most important information. We are limited largely to TV camera angles, ignorance to the play call, ignorance to his progression, ignorance to the amount of rope he has been afforded (for example, is he hyper-cautious by nature or by coaching?, does he take sacks because that his only option or because thats what he’s told to do?, etc). On top of that, it is clear that the offense lacked the perfect canvas for a QB to work with. No field stretching deep threat. A pocket that was easier and easier to collapse as the season progressed. A player, himself, who started the season with an open dislocation of his throwing index finger and then a gruesome dual ankle injury against Washington. I personally don’t think any QB would have dazzled the masses under the conditions that Orton worked in 2009— especially when fold in his newness to the system and the complexity of said system.
The fact is, none of us has the evidence to have a strong opinion at all at this point, and judging by the comments coming out the organization, they seem to generally concur with this sentiment. Now is a time for well warranted optimism, spiced generously with an eye towards having a plan ‘B’ in place. IMO, of course…
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-- Oscar Wilde
by PredominantlyOrange on Feb 15, 2010 9:13 AM MST reply actions 11 recs
Gave Your comment a rec PO
It is very hard to stay out of the debates at times. I try to avoid picking sides on this one tho I tend to lean at supporting Orton than getting rid of him. I don’t think the Broncos and McX will draft a 1st round QB this year. Bradford and Clausen will cost to much money to ride the bench. There will be to much pressure to play them right away. With the strong possibility of a rookie cap in place next year you can afford to get a 1st round QB and not be in a position to play him right away. It could lead to more teams willing to move up in the draft to get the guy you want. It would cost alot in draft picks but might be worth it if you had the chance for say Jake Locker or Ryan Mallett.
Agreed and rec'd, but with one caveat
I think the one thing that is being somewhat ignored in this discussion, at least financially, is that Orton has shown an tendency towards ankle injuries in his last two years. Obviously I am no expert, and cannot say how much of an issue this will be going forward, but it seems necessary to have a quality backup QB in the event of another Orton injury.
People tend to ignore the importance of the backup QB position, even when the starter has an injury history. Look at Mcnabb- he is an excellent QB when healthy but Andy Reid saw (correctly) that it was necessary to invest $ in a quality backup as long as he has an injury prone starting QB. People always assumed that Kevin Kolb was drafted to become the starter, but he is equally valuable as a quality backup to Mcnabb. Had he not been on the team this year, the Eagles would have been far less competetive in the games that Mcnabb inevitably missed. This is, by the way, why I think it is unlikely that Kolb will be traded- he is simply too valuable to the team in a backup capacity.
I would therefore be very surprised if the QB position isn’t addressed with some priority this offseason- even if purely in a backup capacity. And that $ must be accounted for in the QB position salary impact, even if Orton himself comes cheaply.
I believe if anyone is to be traded i will be Vick, not McNabb or Kolb.
We certainly need a viable backup because we sure as heck couldn’t count on Simms when the call came out. Whether he get’s his head screwed right or not we need a good backup.
Great Post PO...Rec'd
Though I have to wonder why you would care to compare Brady and Orton Cross Country Skiing and shooting…
;-)
Not sure about the “Well Warranted Optimism”…but I am all in favor of Orton as starting QB on ’10 with a solid plan B.
LOL..
I gots winter olympics on my mind…I meant the decathlon…
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-- Oscar Wilde
by PredominantlyOrange on Feb 15, 2010 12:52 PM MST up reply actions
I'm ignorant all over, but even I can see that Kyle is an athlete
and a damn good quarterback. Hope to see greater things out of this guy before we are through. Great post PO and rec’d
Best comment yet!
As far as KO’s perceived tendency for injury, I think that can easily be mitigated by an upgraded interior OLine….
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
I would like to see how Kyle Orton performs with an OL that gives us a strong running game no matter where we are on the field , ie, also in the red zone.
Also an OL that will give him time to throw – and throw long if he finds someone open deep or is simply following the play call. And to have a quality backup so he knows that if he risks his body in a run, the offense will not collapse.
I think that he can improve his mobility – even at 27. I began a gymnastics business at 30; learned how to do cartwheels at about 35 – can still do them today and I will be 62 next month. It helps that I have done yoga for 45 years. I disagree that he has peaked in that respect.
Orton needs a payday. Maybe only for 2-3 year contract – but he needs to be paid. In my mind, drafting a top QB prospect should come next after some of the other needs are addressed. 6-7 M is not too much IMO. We need someone to take us to the next level. He can take us there and if he works at the next level, so be it.
In my previous post, I said "drafting a top QB prospect should come next after some...
I meant to insert “year” after the word “next”. My bad.
Very nice post V7. Excellent points. Appreciate your time and energy.
the only problem with the "Wait till next year" approach to drafting a QB is...
Hopefully we won’t have as good a draft pick next year.
If Bradford or Klaussen or any other QB falls to us that McD likes, he had better grab him while the grabbing’s good.
I'm not big on any of the QB's coming out this year
But at the same time I dont buy the notion that this is not a good draft for QB’s. Maybe its not extremely deep but there isnt a lot of teams in the QB market. I have no facts to back this up but off the cuff it seems like teams have done a much better job over the last couple of years of identifying and developing their QB talent.
The only draft I can think of that was weak for QB’s was the Russell, Quinn draft and well the Raiders dont count because they’re the RAiders and Cleveland has had a revolving door of head coaches that any QB would have a hard time thriving.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
You guys can forget about drafting a QB in 2011 if we don’t have a new CBA. Mallet will stay in college as well as several other draftable prospects. Why would anyone enter into a league that is not playing or paying.
Unless Denver gets the number 1 overall pick in 2011 and take Locker, we won’t be able to address QB next draft. It will have to be 2010 or 2012.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Umm, I'd assume College Seniors?
While players like Claussen, Bradford, and Snead entered this year’s draft as underclassmen in order to cash in this year, a few notable quarterbacks including Jake Locker and Case Keenum stayed for their senior year despite 2011’s uncertainty. That isn’t including the college player who distinguishes himself during next season.
I think there’s a few quarterbacks that we can drafted in between the 5th round and UFA. I think we’re more likely to go that route than draft one early in this draft or next.
Even squirrels know where their nuts are.
It’s only takes a pessimist to lose them. Kyle is OK in my book and I can’t wait for chapter 2 of this saga…
by bfree2bronc on Feb 15, 2010 8:41 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
I agree with you bfree. IMO Orton is an excellent QB! We haven't seen how productive that he can be - and how good he can make the people around him.
I feel our draft choices should go to position players – as that is where, IMO, our need is.
But should we draft a QB fairly high – I like Colt McCoy. I feel that he would match our offense pretty well. It would take him 1 – 1 1/2 yr to grow into the role and learn the offense. He is ranked #45 on the CBS Sports.com rankings – right behind Tebow.
From the title of your post V7
I’d like you to find me just one person who needs another reason to root for Orton (end sarcasm).
I know there are actually a lot, I guess I’ll just never get over how many times you’ll hear someone who is a fan, seem to want the good guys (that is, anyone wearing Orange and Blue) not to do good…. I mean I can understand with LaMont Jordan at least, he wore Black and Silver too long (again with the kidding).
Serious though, it really would be awesome if we all have reason to end up arguing to retire #8
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Feb 16, 2010 3:04 PM MST reply actions
Thanks Vortex
Lots of high emotions here. Orton and McDaniels are my teams’ QB and HC for 2010, and I am going to support them and assume they will both improve over 2009. How much remains to be seen, but I am an optimist at heart. Let’s resume the discussion this time next year.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
GReat point AZDEN
We still dont even know if Orton is going to be here this year. And even if he is there is so reason to let our emotions get the better of us. Its not like one person’s stats or arguement is going to change any play on the field.
I agree with you 100% that we should let the Orton arguement go and judge it after next season.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
A quick request
This is a great discussion and lots of valid points have been raised.
However, I have noticed that in some comments, emotions are beginning to run just a tad hot. Please try to keep the conversation civil, and try to avoid ascribing motives for why one member writes what he or she writes.
Thanks.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Of course. He had already been to three Super Bowls at that point.
San Diego Super Chokers – The annual preseason Champs, eternal post season chumps. Stay Classy
Say something nice...
Just once, your glass could be half full. I’ll be watching -)
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
The best remedy for a glass half empty....
…. is to pour the liquid from that glass into a container with exactly half the volume capacity as the original glass.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 9:02 AM MST up reply actions
LMAO
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 9:15 AM MST up reply actions
Exactly! The glass isn't half empty...
It is twice as big as it needs to be!
This!!!
There’s just too much glass. hahaha well played.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 2:48 PM MST up reply actions
I wish I could take credit...
It is an old engineering joke.
The optimist says the glass is half full.
The passimist says it is half empty
The Engineer says it is twice as big as it needs to be.
We are a rare breed.
Indeed. lol.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 12:25 PM MST up reply actions
This has now become very relevant information for me to be able to better understand your comments and posts!!!
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
by BroncoSense72 on Feb 22, 2010 1:00 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah...I really should add a statement to that effect as my signature.
Do not speak directly to the Engineer…
Do not look at the Engineer in the eyes…
Always add a number of some kind to your statements to the Engineer…










































