Finding Center
With the idea that Center tops the Broncos list of needs as a team, naturally attention has turned to the draft as a means of rectifying that situation.
However, of note are the actual 2-deeps, that is, the 1st and 2nd string midseason rosters of NFL teams around the league. These 2-deeps reflect actual roster construction in the heat of battle, well displaced from the relatively idyllic conditions of post training camp structures, when players, and time, are more plentiful.
When looking at these starters and their backups, we can note how they matriculated to teams' rolls, and how long it took them to get there. And from this we can draw some conclusions about where exactly we can expect the highest level of contribution to come from for the Broncos in the next offseason, as well as assess the pros and cons of deviating from that mean.
Let's get to it...
Some Theory
First, let's talk for a moment about what we expect to discover.
In looking at 2-deeps from 2005-2009, we will be seeing somewhere in the neighborhood of 320 starting or starting quality centers. Some teams only list one starting quality center, and in those instances we will take them at their word. Other teams, like Denver, list a center starting in 2009, but list a starting G or other non-Center position as the immediate backup, such as Ben Hamilton backing up Casey Wiegmann. Again, we will take them at their word and consider the starting G to be a backup C for the purposes of this analysis. Often, teams will list 3 or even four or more players on the Center depth charter. The top two are considered for the purposes of the 2-deep however, and the rest are ignored. In this manner, constraining the markup for centers should lead us not to a list of players capable of playing center for each roster, but to a list of players expected to be able to start at center for each roster.
By noting how they entered the league we can expect to learn what impact can be likely found in one of two areas and one subset area. The first area is through the draft, the second area is through college free agency, and the subset area is through already developed players who were acquired or retained as free agents.
These players can be expected to be the best choices for these rosters in the majority of cases. This method also does not try to describe a list of the best centers in the NFL, since the 2-deep approach takes into account the fact that some teams are better at looking for talent in the right spots at the right time, and so might have a 2-deep that far outstrips a single starter on some other less personnel-fortunate team.
Some Numbers
Through 5 years, 2005-2009, the NFL 2 deeps comprised the following makeup:
| Description | # | % |
| Totals | 305 | 100 |
| Free Agents | 120 | 39 |
| CFAs | 95 | 31 |
| Drafted | 90 | 30 |
On average, in any given year, you will find that the center production is delivered most by experienced veterans on at least their second major contract. This is followed by players who entered the league as college free agents, among whom their is a mix of both first contract CFAs and a small percentage (3%) of CFAs who have signed as free agents after becoming productive starters. Lastly are players who were drafted and became expected to start on their initial contracts.
What this indicates is that at any given point you have about a 30% chance of getting a productive roster participant at Center through the draft, while hitting the free agent market will net you the best odds of getting someone who produces at almost 40%. Most importantly, however, is that the best way to address depth at the position is to sift through the college free agents. We'll discuss why that may be, below.
A few other notes: The total number of players at the C position who were drafted compared to undrafted, regardless of how they came to be starters, outpaces the rough overall margin for drafted vs. undrafted in the NFL in general, at around 70% compared to 77%. (About 23.2% of the NFL is composed of CFAs).
Of the centers that are actually drafted and become starters, 72% are selected from the fourth round on and 40% are selected in rounds 6 and 7. These back-end players actually support any theory which would posit the amount of time investment required to harvest production from centers as being high. When coupled with the tremendous amount of CFAs at the position, this drives the production levels of the long term development projects up to 53% of totals, not only doubling production vs. experienced free agents, but quintupling production vs. the 1st through 3rd round starters.
Strategies and In-House Answers
The Broncos gave a clue to how they think about this position when they looked at Blake Schlueter from TCU in the final rounds last year. Sixth and seventh round selections are often viewed as the worst of the best, but they are just as easily quantified as the best of the rest. The real difference in labeling comes down to how much time you are required to invest in a position.
If the Broncos find a player of Maurkice Pouncey's perceived ability sitting at 45 when they pick in the second round, they will find that it is a sweet spot for those rare teams that manage to get production early from their draft picks. That is a heck of an if, however, given that Pouncey is the highest rated center in 2010's draft class, and thus will be coveted by all teams with a possible roster spot for a center. His availability probably rates somewhere southward of his probablility of contributing early, which is right around 30%. 30% isn't a plan. At best it is a wish, and it is likely that the Broncos will have it classified more in the light of a highly unlikely opportunity.
So that opens the door for one of about nine other center prospects in the 2010 draft who carry draftable grades, and varying degrees of fit. These players are covered in SAT's analysis here. We can debate a bit in moving them up and down our boards, but history suggests that the players at the bottom of the board become a better value in the long run. History also tells us that those players have non-expectant impacts -- they will produce eventually, but initially they are a bit of dead weight that must be hidden on practice squads and in the lucky cracks of third string roster degradation. So well are they hidden that even their own fans count them amongst the dead. The Broncos own Seth Olsen fits this description. From McDaniels:
But Seth is a player that will learn how to snap the ball and play center once he's here. So, to have three-position versatility inside is very big.
We can assume that Olsen did indeed learn about snapping the ball, and at 6-6 305+ he is much closer to what we are looking for at C. Yet he was unseen for the 2009 season, and an afterthought in our own current musings on the topic. I guarantee you, however, that he is much more a part of the internal discussions than any free agent or draft prospect to this point. His presence alone is an opportunity for Denver to exercise the greatest virtue a team can possess during the draft: patience. Denver can take advantage of the fact that they don't have to jump any prospects at C, and that they can let the entire draft come to them. And if no highly ranked centers slip down to them, they can feel comfortable all the way to the sixth and seven rounds without pressing. And even then they can let the moment pass and turn their eyes to the CFA's, since the numbers support their chance at success, even favoring it over taking a late flier in the draft.
There is no doubt that the center position has been approached with caution when it comes to investing heavily in the young and inexperienced. The hallmark of CFA contracts is the absolute steal they represent, and many centers spend their first 3 or 4 years scraping a minimum wage ceiling. But when they are ready, they are one of the longest lasting positions in the NFL, and many teams, including the Broncos, man the position with free agents entering their 30s, some on their second or third UFA contract.
Going into 2010, the free-agent center group is almost critically hamstrung by the looming uncapped scenario. Only about 10 of the 23 expected first- second- and third-tier free agents at C are expected to make it to market in an uncapped year, and of those only 5 even managed to rate on the first or second tier. It is not a buyer's market, so some creativity is particularly necessary, including looking outside the 2-deeps for centers, and looking at other guards and even tackles, with the experience and versatility to shift into the middle of the line.
Which brings us full circle back to the Broncos roster, where Ben Hamilton rates as an experienced 2nd-tier center on the 2-deeps, and who will be entering free agency. His benching at LG has prompted many to dismiss and ignore his value as a free agent, but once he is on the market, expect him to test the waters for interest, and for the Broncos to be willing to show their own interest in bringing the 290lb G back as veteran depth and competition at center.
With Hamilton's return at a restructured rate, and with Olsen having an entire season and offseason to immerse himself in the responsibilities of playing center, the Broncos would have a two deep rotation to challenge the 285lb Casey Wiegmann, the worn down, but chronically tenacious, veteran. Don't be surprised if Wiegmann wouldn't be able to put up a classic fight to retain his position as the starter either, after rejuvenating during the offseason. And he could win it only to wear down, but a veteran would then be prepped and ready to step in behind him, unlike last year where the benched Hamilton would have been a rash solution to to the struggles on the interior. All the while Olsen would be prepping for his second season behind the two vets, trying to break in wherever they might show a weakness. He might even get a little lucky.
What is funny is that if the above were to come to pass, on the outside things wouldn't look any different than they do right now. Imagine that, one of our greatest needs, perceived to have been ignored by the McDaniels regime...
I don't think some Broncos' fans are going to be able to handle that.
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Comments
No! Dustin Fry?
I really think that combination of Dustin Fry and Seth Olsen will end up being the answer at center. Please cut Casey Wiegmann and please no Ben Hamilton he is injury prone at this point. I also don’t believe that Maurkice Pouncey will be around at pick #45. Other than that I liked the info and stats about late round C’s and the insight into what McD and X-man think about the C position as far as drafting C’s late.
Olsen
Your points on Seth Olsen are gold. You are right. I completely forgot about him. Those two paragraphs alone are a must read when we are talking about building the Denver line.
Excellent
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
by TJ Johnson on Feb 17, 2010 6:33 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
I'm with TJ
Thanks for reminding us about a guy already on our roster who might be what we’re looking for….
- Nick
"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.
Indeed...kinda like the Brandstater situation...
We just can’t possibly know how they are progressing, but the coach does.
We should learn alot about our prospect players after free agency and the draft….It should be clear at that point, how McD views their potential!
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Some thoughts
1. Excellent post. I think the fact that so many starting centers are CFA or late-round picks is something that all of us find sort of interesting and then never both to look into further. Thanks for delving.
2. I’m fairly big on trading out of 10/11 (even if my beloved Rolando McClain is there) and picking up Pouncey somewhere in the 20’s. I think this is a very deep but not top-heavy draft and the difference between Pouncey and the rest of the center’s in the draft is bigger than the gaps between than that of other positions here. I could be dead wrong. It’s only opinion. But please note that this is where I’m coming from.
3. In the past 5 Pro-Bowls ( I know Pro-Bowls don’t mean much, but unfortunately the NFL doesn’t hand O-Linemen trophies every year) there have been 15 centers selected to the 26 slots on those 10 teams. Of those 15, 7 were drafted in the first three rounds. Of the 7 selected to multiple Pro Bowls during that time (Saturday, Kruetz, Birk, Gurode, Mawae, Mangold, and O’Hara) 4 of them (Kruetz, Gurode, Mawae, and Mangold) were selected in the first three rounds with Kreutz the only one of the the 4 not selected in the first two rounds. Depending on how you look at this, and again I’m bias, I think that it shows – like any other position – you’re more likely to find a “star” earlier in the draft than later. I think it’s especially interesting for centers because so few are drafted in the first two or three rounds to begin with.
4. This could all be nonsense. I love Seth Olsen and am interested in seeing what he could do at guard, but the fact is , at Iowa, he played 2 years at tackle and a year at guard. I’d love to see him work at center – but I don’t know. None of us do. Personally, I’d like to draft Pouncey, grab a G/C guard in the middle rounds (I’ve been vocal about liking Mitch Petrus) and then having a future in which Pouncey is the starter and a guy like Petrus could be a starting guard who could move over to center like Ben Hamilton has. As far as veteran to nuture, I like Seth McKinney as a poor, poor man’s Eugene Amano over Wiegmann. He has his injury history, but he’s bigger, technically sound, and plays mean. He could compete as a starting LG, C or back up either for considerably cheaper than Stephen Neal. Just a thought. He played for former Bills running-game coordinator/current Bronco’s running back’s coach Eric Studesville last year in Buffalo.
5. I think Blake Schlueter and where we were last year, is different from now. We still were a zone-team and Casey Wiegmann was coming off a Pro-Bowl season. I think the hope might have been to develop him under Wiegmann for two years if all things stayed the same. Schlueter didn’t even make the team.
I’m being 100% sincere about trying not to be negative (I hate went that happens on these boards). I hope you’re right. There are a few good centers in the middle/latter rounds of this draft and, as you said, Seth Olsen could be an answer. I’m just trying to play devil’s advocate.
Its all about the numbers
you are absolutely right, that if you want a star, the top of the draft is where to start looking, but according to the numbers, your chance of getting that guy is at about 30%.
The relationship that the numbers highlight is that a young expensive center has less of a likelihood of starting than an experienced, expensive center. When you also allow yourself to consider 6th and 7th rounders in that equation, the balance skews heavily to longterm development.
It isn’t that you can’t get a starter in the draft (which is why I included the -slight- possibility of Pouncey in ‘10), it is that you probably won’t. There is no hard and fast rule that says anyone needs to follow the probabilities, there is just the knowledge that over time the probabilities will be correct.
In point 4, I would only note that a veteran center shouldn’t be signed to be nurtured according to this philosophy. Veteran centers should be brought in to start, or to be 100% capable of starting as a backup. The nurturing should be left for late round picks and CFA’s only (4th thru 7th round is defined as late for centers, in my opinion). Anything higher than that, and the money value will probably indicate that they should be starting or highly capable of starting.
Totally agree on point 5, and in fact, McD mentions in the same interview from which the Olsen quote was pulled that the Schlueter selection highlighted a few of the zone things that McD wanted to try. Of course, that is neither here nor there in affecting the analysis, since scheme wouldn’t affect the overall numbers, just the veracity of particular individuals over others. More importnatly I think your point 5 highlights that Olsen might be out of his element, since he was drafted according to the same philosophy that acquired Schlueter. There may be some room for a defense of Olsen on the grounds of him being a larger T/G prospect and thus perhaps more suited to the lighter duties of the center in our new scheme, but I’ll leave it at “I wish we knew more about where Olsen was at right now.” The way the chips fall in the draft and free agency may give us clues, but by the time we have a chance to watch olsen in TC, it will be pretty much too late to address concerns with significant moves (though that was the time of year last year when we were trading picks for players with NE…)
And no worries about negativity… I see your thoughts as contrast, and contrast begets clarity.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 12:47 AM MST up reply actions
one more clarification
I find it helpful to think of this kind of analysis not so much as what would be ideal, than as what is most likely. The concern then becomes how do you manage the risks inherent in “most likely”, and where are the opportunities to upgrade from “most likely” to “opportunistic.”
For example, another study (such as your mini-study in your comment) could show that you get the most productive starting man-hours (an economic measure of value per dollar spent) out of centers ranked amongst the top 50 of their peers in the draft. Combining that data and this data may lead us to the conclusion that our closest selection to #50 (in this case #45) would hold the highest value for us to select a top 50 center….if one is there. When combined with similar studies for every position, we would even be able to compare our choices, and thus start managing the risk of moving around within the draft context itself, with trades up and down. This would be an example of manipulating “most likely” and tweaking it in an attempt to take advantage of high value opportunities.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 1:01 AM MST up reply actions
About the Schlueter pick
I’ve often wondered if it wasn’t that pick that McDaniels had in mind when he said that he and the scouts weren’t on the same page.
by Fan in Exile on Feb 18, 2010 8:20 AM MST up reply actions
I was thinking about Olsen's 'journey'
2006 – Olsen played all 13 games (10 starts) as a sophomore for Iowa, starting five contests at right tackle, four games at right guard and one contest at left guard
2007 – Olsen started all 12 games as a junior for Iowa, opening 11 contests at right tackle and one game at right guard
2008 – Olsen started all 11 games he played at right guard as a senior for Iowa… Earned first-team All-Big Ten Conference honors and received All-America recognition from Rivals.com (first team) as well as The Sporting News (second team)… Received the Coaches Appreciation Award on offense and was one of four Iowa seniors named to the Leadership Group. He made the Leadership group every year, according to only one of the articles on him (I don’t have a backup source, so I’m not sure if that’s accurate).
Considering that he also played in all the games his first year (as a redshirt freshman) although he didn’t start, he’s pretty good at moving around. Center is a tough position, but he’s got the leadership cred for it. His arms are 33.5 inches long, so he’s good on that metric – O-line players with short arms (like Lichtensteiger) often have problems in the NFL. Fry is mostly, well, large. He’s also played some at center and done well, so it will be interesting to see how this one plays out. I suspect that how they are able to deal with the interior line will be a big factor in how well they play.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
Followup on Olsen
I love the predraft scouting reports – Rivals is big on how long his arms are, NFL.com complains that they are short, hence the measurement above. However, I thought this was interesting – I found it here
04/21/2009 – Knowing that NFL teams can only dress seven offensive linemen for a game, having showed in college he can play numerous positions on the field is something both he and Iowa offensive line coach Reese Morgan see as being beneficial for Olsen in the NFL. “Seth has played two years at tackle and a year at guard, so he has had the opportunity to do both, and it is an advantage,” Morgan said. "He has played right side, left side, and we use that same kind of concept with our players. We want them to learn both sides. We want all of our guys to learn numerous positions, and he knows every position. “He is a guy who can play any position in the league.” While he said there’s always a possibility of playing anywhere along the line, Olsen has gotten the sense he is being viewed as a guard prospect. “Guard is my primary position,” Olsen said. “That’s how I see it, and that’s how they see it.”
Immediately upon being drafted, he suggested that he was open to moving to center. Other points:
Good initial quickness off the snap. Very good hand placement and upper-body strength. Seems to enjoy the physical hand-to-hand combat inside the trenches. Good strength to latch onto the defender, turn and either sustain his position or toss the defender onto ground for a pancake block. Underrated short-area lateral quickness and balance to hold up in pass protection. Plays with good leverage despite his height. Versatile blocker who has started at right guard, right tackle and left tackle over the past two years. Impressive week of practice at the East-West Shrine game.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
Reese Morgan is always relevant
he is a fantastic oline coach, and has had the Iowa players under his wing for the last six or seven years.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 11:48 AM MST up reply actions
Great point
Sometimes, fans can’t know that the coaches live football in a way that is impossible for even the most avid fans. One thing that many of them know is which college coaches are turning out the best product. Olsen’s draft reports showed that – there were constant comments on how his technique is very high level and attributing that to his line coach at Iowa and the Iowa emphasis on line play in general. That kind of thing goes into every draft, and usually for the teams that did well.
Spurrier’s comment that McKinley was the best WR that he’s ever coached – and the subsequent retiring of McKinley’s college jersey – are similar credentials. Thanks for reminding me of that.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
Fry is 326 lb
And that’s a lot of man, but he’s likely to take time to develop. Here’s to him getting there – this is his last year on the PS, if that’s his current destination. Nice to have options, though. If only we could get a clue as to how Olsen is doing….
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
I considered including Fry
but in sticking with the concept of the 2-deeps, I felt like he would be on the outside looking in. It would benefit us greatly if he turns out to be one of the top 53 players during preseason, but as you say, we can squeeze him in elsewhere and talk about this again next year. The Olsen_hamilton_wiegmann possibility seems to me to have the most sound basis, in terms of managing risk. I honestly think that the Broncos will attempt to have Ben in camp, and there really isn’t a reason to cut Casey, so then it is just wondering where the competition is going to come from… right now that is Olsen, and I would expect an inexpensive FA to go with Ben as well, though that player may be a G or T…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 12:52 AM MST up reply actions
This article is a perfect example of...
…how many things a guy like me can learn about football. The “2 deeps” concept, married with the numbers that Jeremy provides and his thoughtful analysis, are a treasure for anyone wanting to learn a thing or two about where a team ought to look moving forward to address the OL.
I’ve certainly learned some nifty things today, and have much food for thought as we move towards the FA and draft periods.
Great job as always Jeremy, and rec’d!
Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.
"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables
Thanks Steve
It is great to get comfortable with uncomfortable ideas, whether it is the fan just making his initial foray into draftivus, or a managerial type coming to terms with the requirements of actual X’s and O’s on the field.
The best thing about MHR is the exposure we get to so many different areas of the game, and it wouldn’t happen without such a diverse community. Instances such as your passion for coaching and cultivating help pull others forward, through sheer intensity of appreciation, and they in turn have their passions which act like a slingshot effect to you and others.
All in all I feel like a heck of a lot of progress gets made at MHR… The big question is progress towards what?
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 1:06 AM MST up reply actions
+1
More insight here than in all the mocks I’ve read so far combined.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
by Drizzt396 on Feb 17, 2010 6:40 PM MST reply actions 4 recs
glad to help
but I have to mention that I am indebted to the comments section of these kinds of posts in order to qualify the insight.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 1:07 AM MST up reply actions
YUP!
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
by BroncoSense72 on Feb 18, 2010 4:25 PM MST up reply actions
Very informative
Thanks for putting a dose of reality Jeremy. I remember last year, when I (and some others) really thought that the first 2 picks would be NT and ILB. Then McX goes and does something completely different. This will prepare us all for another unsuspecting result this year. Thank you very much. I second what Steve said also.
As Mr. Miyagi would say, “Focus Daniel-san, and you will find your Center.”
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Hahahahahahah
Careful, you might have people convinced McD is sitting on the floor, snapping chopsticks at pictures of centers…
- Nick
"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.
McD tossing yarrow upon a gravel draftboard?
somehow I can picture it….
“Hmmm…. Mountain over River… we need… a DE!”
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 1:09 AM MST up reply actions
A pair of 'Futures/Reserves' guys might also hold some valuable clues to the future development of our O-Line.
Dustin Frye and Matt McChesney. They sure have the size 326 & 333 respectively. The problem that may lie here is that they are unexperienced in the whatever system Mcdaniels wants to run. Getting in on the ground floor may or may not be a benefit our of any value of any kind and since we are restrained by the nonexperience of these 2 then we’ll just have to wait to see if they will or will not succeed.
I was bewildered and surprised at the Schlueter cut and wondered if there were issues between him and the coach or if he didn’t fit the mold that McDaniels thought he would…This has been a mystery to me along with other details that we are not privy to.
I had a thought (wow, how surprising) that McDaniels could make a tight end out of Mitch Erickson. At 6’5 286 he already knows how to block and if he could learn how to get into space and catch the ball, he might even flatten a few LBers. What wre you thoughts on this?
MCChesney was in camp last year as well
If I had to guess, he will be camp fodder, but one thing I found when analyzing the above data was how often a slow developing CFA type center would just sort of slowly work their way up into a starting position. I didn’t record and average the continuity years out, but my impression would be that about 5 years is when you start to see these late round and undrafted centers really start coming into their own.
I think Schlueter was just caught up in the numbers game. If McD had his druthers, I think he may have had a deeper draftboard with which to make his final selection, though the enormity of our CFA crop seems to defy that logic somewhat. I figured we would end up cutting one of our centers, but I was surprised when we cut 2! (3 if you count McChesney). It was so we could carry an extra RB, I think, but we may never know.
In the final analysis, the Oline numbers game is the harshest of all positions, and versatility is the name of the game. A center only, as Blake projected, needs to be 1st string material, or he probably won’t last.
As for Erickson at TE, I think that all of our backup G/C and even some of the tackles need to know how to line up as TEs, since we go with that extra heavy jumbo formation a lot (though that could change with better effectiveness in shortyardage form our base packages). I’ll even bet that they all get some reps catching so that they are comfortable with the idea. However, TE and OL overlap a bit in the numbers games, in terms of harshness, so a player that wasn’t quite a tE and wasn’t quite an OL wouldn’t have a spot here. Though a Shanny style offense might value that kind of player, since Erickson would be more tenable as a zone lineman…. Also, I don’t doubt that McD has plays in the playbook that call for a converted G to run a TE route and catch a critical pass, however, this is in contrast to volumes of other, better plays. I think that even if they had the tools to do it, in most situations, it wouldn’t be the best choice. But, you never know…
Intriguing thought bfree…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 1:25 AM MST up reply actions
Living in CT
I get a high dose of patriots games. They will use an O-Lineman or a LB lined up at TE and throw a fade to them. I have seen them do this on several occasions. The possibility for a guy like Erickson or some other O-lineman to be this type of player is very real. Don’t count that one out. As a lighter O-lineman Erickson just may fit the bill if he can learn to catch some balls.
Just thinking outside the box...I love the posibilities a player brings.
I don’t really see Erickson in McDaniels’s scheme other than the afore mentioned. I wonder what his fate will be…
by bfree2bronc on Feb 19, 2010 12:42 AM MST up reply actions
A thought on Blake Schlueter
from Wiki: (The quickest source for my point)
Schlueter was waived by the Broncos September 1st. The Seahawks signed him to their practice squad on September 7 and released him on September 15. Schlueter was signed to the Atlanta Falcons’ practice squad on November 24. After his contract expired following the season, he was re-signed to a future contract on January 4, 2010.
I wonder if Blake was a victim of the numbers game (being one of the last cuts). I mean he was picked up by other teams and seems to have landed in Atlanta. If he is worth something, McX can always poach him from the Falcons PS next season.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
definitely a victim of the numbers game...
also, i don’t think he projected well to RG or LG, so that probably helped him on his way.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 1:27 AM MST up reply actions
Could have been a help at FB for us
Don’t laugh, the dude ran a 4.7 40 or something crazy like that!
by Sayre Bedinger on Feb 18, 2010 7:08 AM MST up reply actions
re: Schlueter
He was definitely ZBer, which tells me that the coaches in charge of that area had input in the draft — IMO. I don’t think Schlueter fit into the newer OL somatotype which McDaniels uses. Schlueter had trouble keeping his weight at 280 lbs. so his (lack of) bulk was a problem.
I just posted on this guy — JOE HAWLEY — who fits the newer somatotype and was missed in the analysis I’ve seen. The newer somatotype is an idea that I’ve been pushing, and I don’t see it as being diametrically opposed to what we’ve seen before, but the emphasis will change. Fast underweight and underpowered OLs won’t be desired but neither will roadgraders.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1116041
http://www.draftcountdown.com/Rankings/OVERUNDER.php
no goats, no glory.
Excellent report, Jeremy. Rec'd!
I didn’t know that Seth Olsen was working on his center skills. I saw in his specs that he was in the last 3 games of the ‘09 season. I looked for him and couldn’t find him on the field – so I don’t know which position he played.
Essentially we have 5 guys who can play center: Weigmann, Hamilton, Hochstein, Fry and Olsen. Probably bump the 1st 2 off the list.
I am with Vortex about trading down to grab Pouncey. He can also play OG. If you list him as an OG, he would be ranked 2nd (currently #30 as OC) after that guy from Idaho on the CBS Sports rankings. The next OGs are Asamoah @ 67 and Johnson @ 81. Ducasse who has been discussed as playing both OT & OG is at #51. So if we were looking to find an OL with the versatility to play 2 positions, Pouncey could be our guy.
I am figuring that this year’s draft will be similar to last years – in that I will most likely be walking around my house for a few days afterward muttering to myself until I “get it”.
Nice post, Jeremy. Thanks for your time and energy.
I'll go back and look for him
he may have caught some special teams reps, if so, I need to get a look, since it is better than nothing…
There will definitely be some surprises. Lst year Moreno was right in my breadbasket, but the repeated DBs really had me scratching my head. I could see Smith, since he was a terrific talent, and I could see a case for a depleted board where you target a guy with a first round grade. But then McBath, followed by Bruton…. add in Goodman, Hill, Dawkins… I was spinning. it wasn’t until later when I did a breakdown on the roster target numbers expected for McD that I saw we were 5 DBs short heading into the offseason… If I had noticed that critical, simple detail, I wouldn’t have been even slightly surprised.
So the question is, what simple, critical thing are we overlooking right now? I haven’t updated my chart in awhile, but by my 3-month old count, we are short on WRs, G/Cs, DEs, OLBs and (guess what?) CBs…. We are “tender” at several more places, like QB, TE, T, S and K. That just about covers it, right? :)
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 1:35 AM MST up reply actions
Heck, toss in a couple of DL and an ILB
Might as well be thorough…lol
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
TE
I could see the Broncos using another early pick at TE. I don’t see Scheffler returning under any circumstance. There are a couple of all around prospects (Gronkowski immediately comes to mind) that might be around and be very appealing starting in the 2nd round.
I also wouldn’t be surprised to see them make a play for Watson in FA. I’d expect a splash in one arena or the other— draft or FA.
Basically, I don’t see that position as flush as most. I think its the most likely position to see a Moreno type ‘surprise’ (though I was among the very rare few advocating Moreno pre-draft).
I’m not necessarily advocating a TE— just see it as a possibility.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-- Oscar Wilde
by PredominantlyOrange on Feb 18, 2010 1:12 PM MST up reply actions
I doubt Watson will come in as a FA
He is another fast TE that can’t block… to the point that he often rides the pine in NE in favor of other TEs. He’s basically a not-as-good version of Scheffler, and given we can tender Scheffler for cheap, I don’t even know that in the end Watson would save us any money. The only thing he may offer is less attitude, but I just don’t think thats enough…
I guess I don't necessarily agree...
…that McD doesn’t value the pass catching TE. Its probably not a position that is as important as it was in the Shanahan system, but its not without a role in the current system. Scheffler played a lot, had at least one game plan built around him (SD I), and had a huge, though largely unproductive, role in the RZ.
Scheffler has had attitude problems going all the way back to Shanahan. He apparently responded poorly to hard coaching his rookie year, pouted last offseason, played more this year than ever before and still finished this year in another pout, and had his agent agitating the Denver media. I think they’ll tender him, and if nobody bites, he might be straight up released. He’s not happy in Denver and I don’t see how Denver could possibly be happy with him.
Watson comes with the advantage of system familiarity, at least. Whether he comes into play or not, I would anticipate one new face on that unit…depending, of course, on Branson’s development.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-- Oscar Wilde
by PredominantlyOrange on Feb 19, 2010 9:09 AM MST up reply actions
I don't disagree that there is possibly a role for a pass-catching TE
I guess I just wonder if losing the attitude is worth the down-grade in talent, as Watson offers nothing better than Scheff with the exception of less ‘tude. Why bring in a new guy who isn’t as good, if you have someone on the roster just as cheap and better.
I’d be much less surprised wither with a pass-catching rookie, or something of that nature where at least the team saves some cap money and/or the potential to develop in a more well-rounded player.
Watson just seems to be all mediocrity and down-side, where at least Shceffler offers something (in addition to major downside attitude).
re: Scheffler & the RZ
Scheffler .. .had a huge, though largely unproductive, role in the RZ.
You’ve put you’re thumb on it. As I’ve said recently: our TE was our long threat and we lacked a RZ threat. The advantages of using a ‘blocking TE who can catch’ are most apparent in RZ play — IMO. Bronco fans have had their thinking shaped by Shannon Sharpe’s time here, but part of the story is being missed. Scheffler isn’t nearly the RZ threat that Sharpe was and he’s not a big contributer in the blocking scheme. Former Bronco great Riley Odoms is an excellent example of the ideal somatotype/skill set that we should be looking for in our TEs. And open field speed (i.e., tail end speed) shouldn’t be preferable to the ‘outrebounding skills’ that ex-basketball converted TEs often display. I’ve been following Jimmy Grahm’s progress to see if he could qualify as the next great conversion project.
no goats, no glory.
Title should read.. Finding our centre..
.. ending line should be..
So in essense.. one must not look outwards for thier centre because that is just a distraction from the truth.. your centre is already within you, you just need to look for it.
haha
Anyways nice post.. rec’d
by HorseStance on Feb 18, 2010 12:56 AM MST reply actions 2 recs
I always loved Seth Olsen...
But then again, what Iowa player would I not back 100%?
Upon reading this Jeremy, I get the impression that we can approach the draft and free agency as though we have a set starter at either LG or C in Seth Olsen. Love it. What say you to adding Kevin Mawae and starting Olsen at LG? Or would signing Bobbie Williams from Cincinnati be a better option and letting Olsen give center a shot?
Taking it back further
As I recall, Ben Hamilton was either a center or a center/guard in college and was originally picked by Denver to be groomed as a replacement for Tom Nalen. Hamilton played guard for Denver while waiting to replace Nalen. Then Weigman came in, but I agree with Digger24 that Weigman may not be back at all. At this point, I do not expect Hamilton to take over as center and maybe its time for new blood like Olsen because McDaniels wants to get bigger on both lines. If Hamilton plays center for Denver, he may have to beef up to do it.
A similar analysis can be made for the NT position. Baker was drafted last year under a similar scenario and may be able to compete for NT this year. Just because a guy didn’t play much last year doesn’t mean he won’t be in the mix this year and that will affect the Broncos needs at the position.
Drafting a Center in the 1st and/or 2nd
I dont think the Broncos should draft a Center with their top two picks. They have many other needs to fill and they can find one in FA to fill that void. The Center is the QB of the O-Line and makes all of the calls at the LOS. Playing a rookie center has many pitfalls because they dont have the experience in the NFL and in their own offense to play the position successfully. One reason you dont see centers picked that high is because they rarely are expected to play early because of the complexity of their position. Finding a FA who is seasoned and experienced in reading defenses is the safest path. We need to draft players who makes an immediate impact with our top two picks…
Olsen will not start at Center…you dont take a guy who has never played a position and then change it in the NFL…the issue when training a center is the shotgun snap, which in our offense is critical. The shotgun takes time to master and for a guy who played guard his whole life… it isnt that easy of a transition, especially at this level.
great point on the shotgun snap
I think Olsen could learn it, but I agree that the most likely scenario is for him to be third string center behind wiegmann and a free agent (possibly Ben). If we had a year like 2007 where we went through both starting centers, I would guess that McD would keep the shotgun snaps limited and really try to ease Olsen along with Orton under center. The offense would struggle, but the alternative is brutal to contemplate…
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 18, 2010 8:11 PM MST up reply actions
I agree with Da1 in that it takes time to master the shotgun snap.
I played center in HS. We ran a single-wing O (8-man) at times with a direct snap to either the tailback or the fullback. The left foot of the FB was lined up about 3 steps directly behind my right foot. The rt foot of the tailback was lined up about 4-5 steps behind my left foot. I had to look at those players to be able to snap the ball to them. Not only were they not directly behind me but also at different distances behind me. Also, I was relatively inexperienced at the task. I tried snapping to the FB one time on an extra point try by looking at him initially and then trying to snap by memory. The ball went up into the air and when he caught it, 2 defenders were in front of him. He wasn’t very happy with me.
This discussion has been outstanding. I have learned a ton. Thanks everyone.
My hat is off to all of you
who are able to give such great information about how a specific player could enter into Denver’s scheme.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Wow, just what was needed. A fantastic article Jerry!
On February 9th I commented on Sharp as a Tack’s post:
I think too little attention is given to "who can contribute right away" on both the OL and the DL. Clady started but is very special. An OL draftee probably needs to be much higher in the draft to contribute immediately than a DL draftee. For these, our highest 2010 needs, we need help now. If the draftee can’t contribute now …then it indicates a free agency move to fill that need.
I attempted to find rookie data to correlate how high they are drafted with when they are prepared to start or even contribute in a meaningful way. Gave up due to my limited data mining skills.
Now here you do one of the best analysis I have seen and and explained to us all about the developement time for OG OC.
Your two deep concept seems to me the best possible way to trim the data to fit an understandable analysis. Thanks.
Post recommended.

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