Answers in Search of a Question: The Myth of the Long Ball
"We learn more by looking for the answer to a question and not finding it than we do from learning the answer itself." -- Lloyd Alexander.
You leap to your feet, your foam Broncos horse head hat flying off behind you as you pump your fist in the air screaming "Yes! Yes! Yes!" Your cats bolts away from the patch of sun where they'd been napping in abject fright, your dogs lazily look at you as though you had just grown another head, and your wife and daughters silently agree to never be seen with you in public again.
Exciting isn't? NFL fans across the nation have fallen in love with big pass plays. The NFL has changed many rules to promote the passing game. It's exciting, it's fun to watch, it gets the old adrenaline going. Fans want their team to throw the long ball. Yet . . .are NFL teams as enamored of the deep pass as the fans? Answers in Search of a Question, after the fold.
I had intended to have my second "Answers . . ." to be a sort of continuation of my first post. Then, my ADD kicked in while perusing some of the threads. I noticed a resurgence of a line of thinking that has arisen numerous times since Kyle Orton became our starting quarterback. It is the on-going debate about whether or not Orton can stretch the field vertically. He's shown that he can physically throw the ball for 65 yards. He's even demonstrated that he can, on occasion, complete a long pass. His supporters argue that issues with the o-line, the running game, the play-calling have all contributed to him not throwing the ball down the field. His detractors suggest that his consistent inaccuracy in the long throw led to McDaniels not calling for deep throws. Perhaps, it is best understood as being a little bit of each. What I'd like to do here is expand the field beyond simply a discussion of Kyle Orton.
This article is going to take a look at the end results of the passing game for teams in 2009. While fans love to see the longer pass, do the teams really utilize them all that much?
For the sake of argument within this article, I am arbitrarily defining three passing zones:
(1)The short zone -- pass plays that went for 1-19 yards
(2)The medium zone -- plays that went for 20-39 yards
(3)The deep zone -- plays that went for 40+ yards.
Please note: I am making no attempt to determine how many times any given team actually threw the ball into any of those zones. As far as I've been able to discover, there is not any place one may go to find a statistic on how many passes were targeted for say 0-19 yards. All I have been able to find are after-the-fact statistics on completions, yards and the break down of 20+ and 40+ yard plays. NFL.com has these statistics posted beginning with the 1991 season.
A Brief Aside About History
The fans' love of the long ball seems to have begun with the advent of what is now called the "Air Coryell Offense." This offense was a combination of power running and deep passing. The approach was to get five receivers out into patterns that would stretch the field vertically. The typical patterns run were two deep ins, a skinny post, a comeback, and a speed out or a shallow cross. It was a timing offense designed to get the ball to a receiver at a certain spot at a certain time. The receiver would catch the ball and turn upfield. Pass protection was vital in this offense. Norv Turner and Mike Martz are advocates of this approach. Turner tends to run it as a sound, quarterback friendly scheme designed to take controlled chances, utilizing plays like a medium zone post pass off of a play action fake. Turner uses a more limited collection of plays than most Coryell disciples and stresses precise execution. Turner led offenses are consistently near the top of the league statistically behind a strong running game, a #1 receiver who can stretch the field and catch jump balls, a good receiving TE to attack spaces opened up in the middle of the field, and a FB to be a lead blocker and final option for checking down on the pass. The downside to Turner's variation is that it is often seen as being too predictable.
Martz's variation of the Air Coryell features a much more complex playbook. It is more aggressive in the passing game to the point that the running game often appears to have been forgotten. There is less play action. Instead, the Martz variation features a RB who is elusive and can catch the ball. His approach tends to use 3 WR sets, and uses the third receiver and a HB to fill the roles of the TE and FB in the Turner variation. Martz' offense works best when the team has two elite WRs with top speed. Martz' variation, due to the complexity of the playbook, usually requires a more intelligent QB who can intuit what Martz wants done, over the elite athlete that the personnel manager for a team might want to draft with a high draft pick. The Martz variation has traditionally struggled when an opponent has been able to shut down the run and force the offense to become one-dimensional. Also, QB's in Martz' offense often take a lot of hits while waiting for the routes to be run.
The West Coast Offense grew out of the Air Coryell Offense. It is a passing, ball control offense. It focuses on short, high percentage routes, with the quarterback releasing the ball quickly. The short, quick passes mean that fewer blockers are needed, allowing for more players to be released into passing routes. It tries to create mismatches between a RB or TE and a LB. By spreading the ball among all of the available receivers, it tries to pull the safeties up towards the line of scrimmage without depending the RB to do so, and thus opens up a deeper strike or the opportunity for a WR to break a tackle and make a long gain. It has been described as "annoying a defense into foolishness" (author unknown). Bill Walsh is often viewed as the premier example of a West Coast coach. The primary goal of the West Coast Offense was to stretch the field horizontally, drawing the DBs in closer to the line and thus open up running lanes and deeper pass routes.
The West Coast Offense is viewed by many as being an unpredictable offense since down and distance is rarely factored into the coach's play-calling. 3-step and 5-step drops by the QB often replace a running attack and most of the pass routes are run within 15 yards of the line of scrimmage. It requires a unique connect between the QB and the WRs -- a WR may be given as many as 3 different options depending on what the defense is showing. The QB must be able to recognize the defense and his receiver's reaction to it. The West Coast offense requires a quarterback with a quick release and an accurate arm and sure-handed receivers who are comfortable catching in heavy traffic. It tends to favor running quarterbacks. Mike Shanahan ran a variation of the West Coast Offense while serving as Head Coach of the Broncos.
The Denver Broncos are currently running the McDaniels' variation on the Belichick/Weis version of the Erhardt-Perkins Offense. What does that mouthful mean? Though it has been perceived as a run-first offense. it is best summed up by Erhardt's adage: "Pass to score, run to win." Despite it's reputation, the offense is not always a run-first offense. This offense is often run out of a spread formation with multiple receivers and an empty backfield. Multiple sets are often used to run a core set of plays, as opposed to some systems that run multiple plays out of the same set. The fullback sees very limited use in this variation. As an aside, the limited use of the fullback when added to Hiilis' designation as a fullback and Larsen's winning of the starting fullback spot, could go a long way to explaining why Hillis did not see more snaps in 2009. For a more in-depth summary, check out this MHR article by Emmett and Doug:
http://www.milehighreport.com/2009/4/14/812783/divining-the-mcdaniels-way-part-4
These three offenses marked the beginning of the NFL's move away from a philosophy of using the run to set up the pass, and towards a philosophy of using the pass to set up the run. This philosophy for the offense, in one form or another, has become a basic tenet in the the NFL today. With the Air Coryell's emphasis on quick down field strikes, and the West Coast's ability to spread the field horizontally opening down field plays, NFL fans saw numerous long passing plays. Given the excitement they generate, it's easy to understand why fans would want to see lots of deep throws.
Throwing the Long Ball
Now the question at hand: Are NFL teams, demonstrated by the number of deep passes they complete in the medium to deep zones, particularly inclined to invest a lot of passing to the long ball?
The following table will take a look at several items from last season: completions, < 20 pass plays, 20+ pass plays, 40+ pass plays and the percentages of completions that the longer plays make up. The Super Bowl teams are highlighted in green. The rest of the playoff field in yellow, and Denver in Orange.
| 2009 | |||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Team | Comp | 1 to 19 | % | 20+ | % | 40+ | % |
| Phi | 267 | 195 | 73% | 55 | 21% | 17 | 6% |
| GB | 350 | 278 | 79% | 55 | 16% | 17 | 5% |
| Dal | 347 | 269 | 78% | 61 | 18% | 17 | 5% |
| Hou | 396 | 319 | 81% | 62 | 16% | 15 | 4% |
| Pit | 337 | 262 | 78% | 61 | 18% | 14 | 4% |
| Min | 363 | 298 | 82% | 52 | 14% | 13 | 4% |
| NE | 371 | 316 | 85% | 43 | 12% | 12 | 3% |
| NYG | 317 | 245 | 77% | 60 | 19% | 12 | 4% |
| SD | 317 | 241 | 76% | 64 | 20% | 12 | 4% |
| NO | 363 | 294 | 81% | 58 | 16% | 11 | 3% |
| Den | 336 | 284 | 85% | 43 | 13% | 9 | 3% |
| Was | 327 | 279 | 85% | 40 | 12% | 8 | 2% |
| KC | 271 | 226 | 83% | 37 | 14% | 8 | 3% |
| Bal | 315 | 263 | 83% | 44 | 14% | 8 | 3% |
| Ind | 393 | 326 | 83% | 59 | 15% | 8 | 2% |
| NYJ | 196 | 154 | 79% | 34 | 17% | 8 | 4% |
| Chi | 336 | 274 | 82% | 56 | 17% | 6 | 2% |
| Jac | 314 | 264 | 84% | 44 | 14% | 6 | 2% |
| Det | 201 | 169 | 84% | 26 | 13% | 6 | 3% |
| Sea | 293 | 256 | 87% | 32 | 11% | 5 | 2% |
| Cin | 282 | 241 | 85% | 36 | 13% | 5 | 2% |
| SF | 225 | 187 | 83% | 33 | 15% | 5 | 2% |
| Car | 178 | 149 | 84% | 25 | 14% | 4 | 2% |
| Buf | 127 | 108 | 85% | 15 | 12% | 4 | 3% |
| Mia | 274 | 247 | 90% | 23 | 8% | 4 | 1% |
| Atl | 263 | 228 | 87% | 31 | 12% | 4 | 2% |
| Ten | 152 | 127 | 84% | 21 | 14% | 4 | 3% |
| Cle | 136 | 121 | 89% | 12 | 9% | 3 | 2% |
| Ari | 339 | 294 | 87% | 42 | 12% | 3 | 1% |
| SL | 140 | 122 | 87% | 16 | 11% | 2 | 1% |
| TB | 158 | 131 | 83% | 25 | 16% | 2 | 1% |
| Oak | 120 | 108 | 90% | 10 | 8% | 2 | 2% |
When we look at the chart from 2009, we see a couple of unexpected things. First the most completions for a 40+ yard pass play was 17 -- or about 1 per game. The league average for 40+ yard pass plays was 7.9, or about 1 every other game. This means that a league average of only about 3% of all of the pass completions went for 40+ yards.
Now I'm sure someone will want to argue that this only represents the completions, and it's probable that the quarterbacks threw more deep passes than were caught. While I'm willing to concede that that may be true, it is hard to take the position that a significant number of deep passes were dropped. Take for example, Peyton Manning. Manning attempted 571 passes with a completion rate of 68.8%. Yet, he only had 8 plays (or about 1% of his pass plays) go for 40+ yards. Which conclusion makes more logical sense: that Manning, the league's second most accurate passer in 2009, missed on a large number of deep throws, or that Manning simply did not throw all that many deep balls? His numbers in the chart show that he threw right about the league average for 20+ and 40+ throws.
The data for 20+ yard completions was 64, or about 4 per game. The league average at this range is 39.8, or over 2 per game. The league averaged 14% of all completions went for 20+ yards.
There was no surge among the playoff teams. They averaged 3% on completions in the 40+ range, and 15% in the 20+. This means that the playoff teams were hovering right around the league average. The Super Bowl teams posted the same numbers.
While I may not be the most gifted at statistical analysis, it does not appear to me that having 3% of the completions go for 40+ yards suggests that the teams are not particularly concerned with a lot of deep throws. Even the mid-range completions (15%) did not command a overly large portion of the teams' efforts.
I had originally planned to post charts detailing the numbers from each of the last ten years, until I realized that the numbers from each of the years were virtually identical. Each season the teams averaged completing 3-4% of their passes for 40+ yards, with the range being 1-6%. They also were averaging right around 15% for completions of 20+ yards.
So where on earth does this fascination/demand that we have a quarterback who routinely throws the ball deep come from? My suspicion is that it comes from four basic sources:
1)Highlight reels. When news agencies show game highlights and recaps, what plays do they include? Two of the most prominent highlights are the scoring plays and the long passes.
2)The NFL's constantly evolving rules that emphasize the passing game.
3)Fantasy football with its emphasis on lots of yards and points.
4)A large segment of the NFL fan base that wants to see lots of highlight reel plays within a game, rather than taking the time to learn and appreciate how their team's offense is supposed to function.
When added together, these four things combine to create an expectation/anticipation/desire for a highlight reel performance on every pass play. The fact that the overwhelming majority of pass plays go for 1-19 yards is overlooked by most people. The argument will often be advanced that the long throw is needed to set up both the run and the shorter game. This is not necessarily true in the McDaniels offense. His offense runs closer to the adage of "pass to score, run to win."
In conlcusion, I took the liberty of including a couple of quotes from Emmett & Doug's article, referenced above:
In kenjutsu, the Japanese art of sword fighting, there is a principle - attack the center! It involves using your hara, your own energetic center, and dominating your opponent to the point that anything he does will fail. This principle is related to something called aiki - it is said that when a general who has mastered aiki mounts his horse, the opposing army will surrender. For the Broncos to apply this principle and break the will of the opposing defense, they need to be able to attack the center of that defense, combining a talented O-Line with effective inside running. It's a common principle in attacking the 3-4, which San Diego runs very well and Kansas City is changing to. The Broncos need to be able to run the ball well up the middle.
Since the Patriots' version of the spread formation tried to expand the field horizontally as well as vertically, look for increased use of routes that employ unusual angles, as New England did with Welker, bringing him across the field to that low crossing-route. Expect to see the tight end to drop into a halfback slot, multiple tight-end sets that will often look familiar and a lot of motion from the tight ends. Anticipate more receivers on the field: wide receivers, tight ends and running backs. Unless there is a major reason, look for the fullback (whoever it is), to have a limited, but essential role - keeping the blitzers off the quarterback.
We saw the beginnings of the transition to the McDaniels offense in 2009. That transition showed a number of areas where the Broncos need to improve to be fully competitive in every game. Contrary to popular belief, we do not need a quarterback who can "throw the long ball" as it is popularly conceived -- we are already right at the league average in that regard, and at virtually the same level as the teams that made the playoffs in 2009. The challenge for McDaniels and the offense, IMHO, is not to throw the ball longer, but rather to translate the throws (and runs) that are made into points.
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awesome article Brian
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
thanks drizzt
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 3:22 PM MST up reply actions
Great post Brian.
I had forgotten that gem from Em and Doug.
Talk about prophetic. Running up the middle was horrible for us last year…
I still think its funny that Kyle “noodle-arm” Orton out threw Jay “second coming” Cutler.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I remembered that they did a series, but couldn't think of the name . . . had to hunt
The runs to the middle have to get better.
It will be interesting to see what happens in the 2nd year of the McDaniels Way.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 3:25 PM MST up reply actions
Excellent Piece!
This backs up some of my own unfounded beliefs, so I think you for doing all the leg-work! I firmly believe that Oton is underappreciated by too many people simply because he’s not flashy enough. Here’s hoping that his continued success silences the critics and wins over some converts!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
I think as Orton and the offense improve
We will see more folks convert. LOL
I was once told that it takes 3-5 years to change a culture within a group. We’re entering year two. Maybe that’s why, while I was disappointed by the way 2009 played out, I’m not ready to be worried about it.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 3:27 PM MST up reply actions
I can see that with Shannahan
I can’t see that with Orton. If were sitting here next year outside of the playoffs again I would bet my house that the Pro Orton crowd will be a lot smaller.
By the way I’m talking about the culture change.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
spot on
Orton’s not flashy enough for the highlight reel fans. Also I believe McD was overly conservative by choice in his first season, and that will change as well. I trust Mr Bowlen to give him the 3-5 years you mention.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
Many people get to caught up in flashy
and don’t pay much attention to the things that matter the most. That is one of the reasons why I was glad to have Orton because quietly goes about his work. I think the non-flashy QB is perfect for us.
Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
Regarding the flash...
note that the great highlight film above, while fun and exciting, topped a losing effort. I still can’t believe we lost that game. For peace of mind, I blame it on Orton’s injury.
I am with you. I bought my Orton jersey the night I found out the team went to a nuggets game, and Orton’s wife went, too, but Orton stayed home to study for the Raven’s game. “Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.”
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Really enjoyed this article Brian...Rec'd
I am one that is supportive of KO in this offense…If McDnX can put together a good off-season and upgrade a few of the weak spots, we could be in for a good run into the playoffs, maybe even a nice deep run…Thanks for the great work!
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
You're quite welcome BS72
I’m like you, I tend to be a “the glass is half-full” guy.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 3:29 PM MST up reply actions
Very good article - Rec'd
My only disagreement is historical — the WCO did not spring from Air Coryell. It was developed by Bill Walsh out of Sid Gillman’s work, some of Paul Brown’s and his own fertile football imagination. It was covered here
By the way, I am particularly grateful for you placing that clip because one of the members recently posted a comment, complaining that this pass was short and how Marshall had to come back for it, etc. From watching the film a few more times, it looks like Marshall slowed very slightly and moved a little to get in the proper line for the catch (see replay later in clip), but still caught it very much in stride. Another perfectly good complaint, hammered by facts. Sad, really…;-)
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
My bad on the history
I was reading a condensed summary of both and must have misread some of it. Thanks for the correction.
The clip I love because it illustrates the excitement of the long pass. Plus, if you listen to the play-by-play and watch the replay afterwards, the play started at the Denver 24, Orton scanned the field from left to right Orton released the ball at the Denver 18 just prior to getting hit, Marshall caught it at the Washington 30. So 52 yards in the air. Pretty decent for a “noodle armed” QB.
As for the argument I’ve heard that it happened because Marshall was wide open — well, yeah. What quarterback wouldn’t throw it to a guy who was wide open? For some inexplicable reason, the cornerback drifted to the outside as Marshall simply ran straight down the field. Go figure.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 3:46 PM MST up reply actions
it's kinda funny...
in a highlight reel in a fanpost I made after week…4? or so Cutler throws one up to a wide open B-Marsh who has to field it like a punt, and gets killed by the DBs that had blown the coverage…weird, that
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Good catch on BM's adjustment Em
One thing Marshall simply does not do well is adjust to the ball in flight. This needs to be distinguished from catching outside fo his frame, which he does very well. Basically, when on the move, Marshall doesn’t adjust to the ball, but on any type of comeback, or stop type of route, he has enough body control to reach outside of his frame and get his mitts on the ball.
On this play the adjustment looks more like a stumble, and it comes very late in the pattern. The source could be a number of things: he may have trouble getting his head around to look behind him, and thus struggle with actually finding and tracking the ball, or it may be more of a whole body agility issue. I suspect the first.
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 19, 2010 5:01 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks, Jeremy - I've noted that and commented on it, but never seen this discussed much
It’s a huge problem for an ‘elite’ WR. I’m not say that he’s not unusually talented – he most certainly is, and I love his circus catches. But one reason for some of them is that he’s often failed to adjust to the flight of the ball on his route and if he really wants to be elite – and I believe that he does – his ability to catch over his shoulder has to improve.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
Good effort here but I don't buy it.
There are two major reasons why the chart you used only tells half of the story, and both are qualitative.
1. You can’t measure the degree to which a QB’s arm strength will keep DB’s honest. The threat of getting burnt on the deep ball is a DB’s biggest nightmare. A QB with arm strength like Cutler will force DB’s to error on the side of the long ball as opposed to the short completion. A QB with little arm strength will give DB’s the comfort to error on the side of the run or the short completion. You can’t measure this or argue with this if you have ever played in the secondary.
2. This chart is also skewed because in Brandon Marshall we have possibly the best receiver in the NFL in yards after the catch. Your chart, as you acknowledged, does not measure how far the QB threw the ball but rather, how many yards were gained as a result of the pass.
I don’t mention this to put Kyle Orton in a bad light, I mention it to put him in an accurate light. He had a very good year and showed an amazingly fast learning curve. Give him another year or two and we might all be very surprised. However, what he brought to the table LIMITED our options.
It is not necessarily that Orton has a weak arm, I think his arm is adequate. It is that he doesn’t have confidence in his long ball or he throws an inaccurate long ball, or maybe both.
FAIL..no offense
but in the case of Cutler, DB’s will cheat to whichever WR he locks onto and then jump the route to pick him off and return it for a touchdown. :P
I would take a gander and say that Kyle Orton is a top 16 QB…which means he is above average. Name 16 QBs better than him…I promise you that the debate will arise not long after you pass the Top 8 or 10.
I’m still not sold, but in my mind he has earned the starting job for another year.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
"FAIL" ?????? MATURE??????
Hey Tim, thanks for answering zero of my points. I didn’t mention anything about Cutler locking onto WR’s because that wasn’t my point. I lost track after that tangent and had to force myself to read the rest.
I think Orton is a good QB too. However I’m not sold on him being the long term option. With that said, I’m hoping he continues to improve and maybe this next season he will change my mind.
Please, bring more to the table than merely “FAIL.”
It was a joke man. Guess it came out wrong...
If you continue reading you will see I was making some counter points.
In any case, I apologize. I followed up the fail with an epic Cutler bash…and a :P. I wasn’t trying to be mean…just being a dingus.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I tried to go email you, but its not listed.
You’re right…I went back to read what I wrote and I guess I did come off as a douche.
I meant it to be funny and I could have pulled it off had I did a better job of wording everything…instead it reads poorly.
I guess I get the big ole FAIL on that one, eh?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I think everybody got the Joke Tim...
Cutler fans is touchy!
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 4:38 PM MST up reply actions
I also failed to read your last two points.
We actually view Orton in the same way.
I allowed my hatred of Cutler to be unleashed upon the masses….whoops!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Thanks. I was sweating it. lol
You could have used….JaMarcus Russell’s arm strength instead of Cutler’d and I think I would have supported your idea. In fact, you could have used MY arm strength and I would have responded more positively. lmao
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Top 16 QB
Tim,
If you dont mind, give me your list. I’m interested in seeing where you rank him and how you view the QB’s ahead of him.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Ok.
In no particular order, these are QB’s that Orton would rank below:
Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Donovan McNabb, Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers, Phillip Rivers, Big Ben, and Eli Manning. All of those guys are proven winners and great players.
Here are the guys I think you could argue Orton an equal or great than:
Jay Cutler(took Orton’s 10-6 team and went 7-9), Matt Ryan, Joe Flacco, Carson Palmer, Matt Shaub, Mark Sanchez, and Matthew Stafford.
The list is subjective…statistically, some QBs I consider to be marginal had better statisical seasons(like Matt Hasslebeck or Trent Edwards…I choose the 16 QBs I wouldn’t mind having on my team(except Cutler).
I’m not saying Orton’s better than every guy on that second list, but he is better than some and equal to others. Overall, I only named 17 QBs total – includes Orton. You decide.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
thats fine.
Thats a good list. Depending on the season you can laim claim to any one of these QB’s. Hasslebeck and Edwards I wouldnt want on my team.
Cutler we still dont know exactly what he will do in his career.
The young guys, Flacco, Stafford, Sanchez and Ryan look like they will be gamers in this league.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Tony Romo?
meh
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Everyone loves to hate Romo...
but he has the stats, has the wins, and has a starting job in one of the most media-focused places in football.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Cutler had stats too....
granted he didn’t have the wins. but IMO Romo’s the weak link on that O. But I would put him, Eli, and Phyllis in the group with Schaub et al
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Romo's the McNabb of the west
The guy has one bad game and they want to run him out of town.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
LOL
The McNabb of the West — gotta love it.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 6:36 PM MST up reply actions
An observation on ranking QB's
This came up in another thread in a conversation with Idaho Nate wherein he referred to a QB as a top 10 QB. We talked about how each of us defined that term.
His definition was that a top 10 QB was one of the ten QB’s he would most like to see on his team.
My definition is a QB who has the majority of his statistics consistently fall in the top 10 of all QBs in the league in the majority of his years in the league.
By my own definition, Orton is not yet a top 10 QB. Could he get there? Quite possibly. Could he not? Equally probable at this point. We have no way of knowing until the next several seasons have played themselves out.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 5:06 PM MST up reply actions
as always
I appreciate how you manage to communicate your views Brian. You’re hopeful but also realistic in your views of Orton. I think if Orton has the same statistical year that he had this year we wont see a year 3. I’ve mentioned this on a number of occasions. At this point I think it has to be playoffs or bust for this team.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I meant to add
I posted a link in fanshots a few minutes ago about how the Broncos plan to tender Orton for 1 year only. If this happens I think it backs up my point. We shall see
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
also, if you count the 20+ yarders as deep balls (some of them approach 40 right?) we slip down the listand are passed by most of the play-off teams.
I’m still most definitely pro-Orton for one more season… maybe two (It may take that long to find our next QB of the future) I can’t help it …it’ll take years to replace the hope we had at the end of Cutler’s last season… before the soap opera ending.
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 4:04 PM MST up reply actions
One thing I can agree with
You can’t measure the degree to which a QB’s arm strength will keep DB’s honest
1)I agree with this since, to-date, I have yet to see an agreed upon, objective means of measuring that nebulous thing called “arm strength.” Sure DB’s are concerned about getting burned a deep pass. And, as shown by the table, every team, at some point pushed the ball down the field. I admitted that I do not have any statistics on how many times various quarterbacks threw the ball down the field, since, as far as I know, that is not a statistic that is currently compiled. That’s why I look at end results. I tend to doubt that any DB is frightened by a QB that can chuck a ball 45 yards down the field but not hit anything (ala JaMarcus Russell). What DBs fear is the guy who can hit a receiver in stride down the field.
2)How does this chart skew the data? It’s looking at the percentage of pass plays that went <20, 20-39 and 40+. For what it’s worth, Denver had 9 of plays that went 40+ yards. 4 went to Marshall, 2 to Stokley and 1 each to Gaffney, Scheffler and LLoyd. In the clip above, the ball travelled 52 yards in the air, and Marshall ran it the last 30 on the play.
It IS important to recognize that Orton has things to work on — McDaniels stated in an interview that he wants to see Orton work on his strength and his overall mobility this off-season. Did Orton limit our options? Sure he did. He was a QB working in a brand new system with a team that experienced a near 50% turnover in the roster. There were a lot of factors that limited the offense in 2009, and Orton was but one part of that.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 4:07 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah that last paragraph really bodes well for Orton!
There are several areas where KO will almost surely improve next year! Add that to the fact that QB play didn’t lose many games last season… Kyle Orton might be our QB for a few years!
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 4:23 PM MST up reply actions
Deep pass
Certainly a QB who is known to be able to make the deep pass effortlessly keeps the DBs, especially the safeties pushed back a little futher on the field, he will also dictate a coverage that is less geared towards clogging up the 0-10 yard zone.
The direct benefit of that is that you will face fewer heavy defensive fronts with 8 or more in the box and that the safeties will be less likely to cheat forward to stop the runs and screens.
Defining short passes to be passes of up to 19 yards seems odd, a short pass would to me be one that is thrown short of the 10 yard mark, while a medium pass to me is one that is thrown to a spot that will yield 1st down on a normal 1st down, the zone between 10 and 25 yards and a deep pass would be any that is more than 25. With the 19 yard short pass you lump in screens, 5 yard slants and ins which we were very heavy on, with the medium outs, comebacks, deep curls etc that we almost never used, but are used quite a bit by some other teams.
When you review tapes of Orton, you will see him often tend to heave his deep passes more than throwing them, this means he has a bigger windup and his delivery is not as nice, it also means he tends to push the ball a bit which means he puts it a little short instead of letting the pass come out naturally, that is a very typical thing to do for a QB who is getting to the edge of his range. Many other QBs do this same thing.
The big thing about the way we played on offense this year is that we did not utilize the 20 yard passes nearly as much as we could have and probably should have, this gave the defense the option of moving up close to the line which shuts down the run offense.
three points there...
1. Much over 20 caused KO problems
2. Our O line caused some of those 20+ problems
3. Still learning the system and WRs
4. and one to grow on… Orton showed us a few times that when he sets his feet and tries… he CAN put some Zip on the ball…
…5. ..if he had run support…
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 9:21 PM MST up reply actions
As I mentioned early in the post
the 0-19, 20-39 and 40+ designations were my own arbitrary choices based on the fact that the NFL only quantifies 20+ and 40+ pass plays in their statistics. This leaves the rest of the pass plays as falling in the 0-19 range.
However you designate the zones for distance, the point remains the same. The 40+ pass plays that so excite the fans, only make up an average of 2-3% of the pass plays for most of the teams. The 20-39 range makes up about 15-16%. Denver was right at the league average in the 40+ but slightly below in the 20-39 range.
I’ve also found myself fascinated by Emmett Smith’s comment about how having 8-9 men in the box consistently would be the dream situation for a QB — it would open up a lot of downfield plays; something that I believe we will see more as the offense has time to build on the foundation laid down in 2009.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 9:46 PM MST up reply actions
once again...
watch this….the DBs blew their coverage, and Cutler’s awe-inspiring arm strength let BM get killed by the DBs he had by 15 yards at one point…
it’s amazing how those DBs erred on the side of the long ball there…
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
I don't even have to watch it...which I can't here
but I am seeing BMarsh standing on the sideline…all alone…waiting…waiting…CATCH – CRUSH…a TD turns into a nice chunk of yards, but no TD. That drive stalled too by the way. :P
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
to quote brian:
“What DBs fear is the guy who can hit a receiver in stride down the field.”
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
and your point is? Cutler can't hit a guy in stride deep? Or that Orton can? Or that BM can't beat a guy deep? Or that Shanny's Offense can't 'trick' a guy that open?
I love how folks take one play and base a philosophy around it! Silly really. If the point would have been made using Russell instead of Cutler, everybody would have agreed and moved on!
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 5:28 PM MST up reply actions
One other word about yards after the catch
In 2009, Orton’s top 3 receivers were Marshall (1129yds), Gaffney (732) and Scheffler (416). They recorded 2277 receiving yards. Their yards after the catch were Marshall (457), Gaffney (167) and Scheffler (168), totaling 792 yards. In other words, 65% of their receiving yards came through the air.
Just something to consider.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 5:02 PM MST up reply actions
Best Post so far
I think every1 should see this post i be trying to tell people Kyle Orton is in the top 10 of the quarterbacks in 09 and he does have a strong arm a pretty good 1 and he can throw a deep ball but is that neccisary? and most deep balls get intercepted am i right yes i am if your facing a team with a good defense there cornerbacks with demonlish your receiver to the ball because recievers have to run infront of the Cbacks and besides that The Broncos o-line can’t handle a blitz very well to many sacks giving thats another reason why you throw it short and hope your reciever gets some good yards
Top 10?
Not even close. Even the pro Orton crowd would agree that he is not a top 10 QB. Top 16 is debateable. Top 10 is asinine to suggest
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Let's see.
Tier 1 - The Best of the Best Peyton Manning, 2- Drew Brees, 3- Tom Brady
1
Tier 2
4— Ben Roethlisberger, 5—Phyllis Rivers, 6— Aaron Rodgers, 7— Donovan McNabb , 8— Brett Favre
Tier 3
9— Matt Schaub, 10— Joe Flacco, 11— Kyle Orton, 12— Eli Manning, 13— Matt Ryan, 472,345,089—Jamarcus Russell, yadda yadda.
So, the way I see it, Kyle is the 11th best, which is definitely close to top 10. You could definitely argue that Eli Manning or Mark Sanchez is better, but by that level the bell curve is so even that no one’s ever going to be right, or be certain. I think he’s absolutely one of the best 16 and gives us a good chance to win. There’s no debating that.
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
by papigrande on Feb 19, 2010 4:21 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
+100000000000000000000000000
THIS FTW
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
The Stokley catch
Anyone remember the two plays previous to this throw? Horrible throws.
WE were lucky to even be in position to have the ball in our possession
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Yeah,because it's so easy to go deep when everyone in the stadium knows you have to.
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
he was throwing to the sidelines
By no means were they deep throws.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Still, everyone knew we would be going deep or trying to get it out of bounds
There’s a reason they’re called Hail Marys, because they literally take a miracle. Which we got :)
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
He was working the sideline
Which every QB in the league loves to do during the 2 minute conversion. Yes, we got lucky, but not because of Orton.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Idk man, I still don't buy it.
He only has 2 options in that situation: deep and to the sideline. That’s what the defense is going to guard with as many men as they can. And remember, he had a broken finger on his throwing hand in that situation too.
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
Still,
If he cant run the two minute offense effectively you cannot consider him a top 10 QB.
If McGeorge was here he would point out to you that Orton actually threw better earlier in the year when his finger was busted up.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
lol
before the rest of the league figured out the limits of our offense more like it…
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 9:23 PM MST up reply actions
Yeah, I remember so many bad throws that i questioned whether or not he was throwing them away...
But he’s got talent enough in others areas to warrant his return… he’ll almost surely be even better this season so… who knows how long he’ll last? I love that we aren’t forced to draft a QB right now.
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 4:09 PM MST up reply actions
Correct me if I'm wrong, johnny, but
The Stokley catch Anyone remember the two plays previous to this throw? Horrible throws.
hadn’t Orton recently had his right index finger dislocated and pushed through the skin?
Be careful of something that’s just like you want it to be.
Waylon Jennings
as I just wrote
He threw the ball better in the first half of the year with his finger busted up then the second half
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Thank you BShrout
You said what I have been too lazy to say all year, and a lot better than I could have put it.
Deep balls can be very effective at quickly changing the momentum of a game. However, more often than not, they just kill your offensive rhythm. I remember when I was a quarterback, the coaches all loved that I had the strongest arm on the team. So every time I went through my rotation in practice or in a JV game (I never played QB at varsity level— I wasn’t that good :P) they would call this same play a LOT: 22 Gun, All Go. Basically it was a spread formation with two wide receivers on each side, all running in a straight line. So, being the naturally analytical person that I am, I asked myself one day, “Isn’t this play retarded?” And I answered myself, “Yes.”
I ate it all up if they were in zone coverage. But when they ran man (which is about 95% of the time in JV) I hardly ever completed a go pass from that formation. The defense all knew I was going to throw it, and it was never open. Plus, I hated that I only had deep options: whee was I going to throw it if I had to scramble. So once in a JV game, I read man coverage and audibled to a weak side comeback with the slot guy running a hitch.
Naturally, I got sacked and lost a fumble on the play, which led to the coaches not letting me call anymore audibles, but I thought the idea was solid. I was always more comfortable throwing a timing pattern or making a quick read than hucking it up in the air as a jump ball, because I knew that there was a high chance for a completion. Throwing a deep ball usually results in an incompletion, which usually led to, at least in my case, a second or third and long and another deep ball.
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
agreed. You can't argue that the threat of it forces DBs to respect it and thus play a bit 'safer'
Also, folks should look at that 20+ stat… Over twenty is where throwing with ZIP – accurately …is important. KO isn’t strong there in my opinion.
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 4:13 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks Brian
I think “entertainment value” is very much a factor in people’s perceptions of QBs around the league, as it probably should be. The owners, sponsors, and the average fan all want exciting, high scoring, highlight reel games. Sadly, Cutler had more EV than does Orton, and to some that is more important than his intelligence and work ethic. Luckily, as a member of MHR I have grown beyond that stage!
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
When reading posts on MHR, I'm often left to wonder what people do for a living.
With the amount of research that goes into some posts, how the hell can a person have time left for gainfull employment.
Great job, bro.
+ 1
The amount of information here is unbelievable
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
LMAO
My wife often asks the same question.
For me (and I don’t know about any of the other staff here), the actual research usually comes very easily and quickly — I’m a fairly fast reader and typist. My problem is defining what I want to talk about and what I want to say about it. ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 5:07 PM MST up reply actions
Yessir! 80WPM carries me a looooong way here.
How else does one post 13k comments in 2.5 years.
Sure it only averages out to 14 comments a day…but I also have several hundred posts.
It’s all in the typing baby. and reading…
BShrout knows what I’m talking about.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
What's even scarier than that is that I am over 10k comments and I've been here since July 2009.
So………What does that say about me?
I should spend more time studying for my major, I guess.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 5:37 PM MST up reply actions
And you have your priorities straight ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 5:56 PM MST up reply actions
Woot, go KB
Dare you to match comments # to the number of site visitors. LOL
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 5:57 PM MST up reply actions
BS............. You're on.
Add about 191 comments and 5 posts to my total, too. I was once “broncointheville” at MHR, but had extreme login problems when I got a new computer over the summer.
How many members are we up to again? I think I can get there. To guarantee it, I just need to shoot for having more comments than people in the world. 6 Billion comments, here I come. lol
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 6:39 PM MST up reply actions
LOL
This could be fun.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 7:26 PM MST up reply actions
KB...my PS3 ID is Zapparulez
hit me up.
I only play COD tho….time is not on my side so I use it wisely. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
haha, will do.
I’m a COD noob, but I play online every once in a while, trying to improve.
I’ve been hooked on the madden ultimate team online, lately. I finally got Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins cards, so I’ve been playing my heart out, trying to get enough contract cards to keep them both on my team.
By the way, my psn id was created the day after we drafted cutler…… now, I’m stuck with it. If only I had been kentuckybronco before then so my ID wasn’t so depressing. Sad story.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 6:53 PM MST up reply actions
Great read Brian thanks!
"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."
I am not a highlight reel fan
and I don’t think Orton is good enough at the medium game for what I ideally would want.
The problem that I have with this post is that grouping everything 1-19 really screws up the place where Orton falls off of a cliff statisticly speaking. In 2009 on passes 0-9 yards Orton has a 74% completion rate, which is fantastic. On passed 10-19 yards it drops to 46% which is pathetic.
I’m not talking about highlight reel catches or running an air coryell offense but I think we have to be able to complete more passes from 10-19 yards out.
Good point...
I think I could complete more than 46% from 10-19 yards…maybe…
Definitely if you counted interceptions as completions. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Great point FIN
Given the fact that the McDaniels offense focuses on a mid-range (10-20 yard) passing game, this is an area Orton and the offense as a whole MUST improve in.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 5:10 PM MST up reply actions
where did you get the 46% from because I havent been able to find any updated final NFL splits for this year
I would say Orton is better than the 46% but the problem was that Gaffney and Eddie were splitting reps even though Gaffney had completely outplayed Eddie this year . If Gaffney takes all the snaps opposite Brandon last year he catches 80-90 balls and Ortons percentage is much better in the 10-20 and 20-30 range .
You cant overlook the effects of a non productive player getting more snaps than a productive one.
I fully expect Eddie to play better next year but Gaffney seriously outplayed him this year. .
The splits can be found the player page at espn.com
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 9:51 PM MST up reply actions
Hoop
Even when your confronted with the facts from a Pro Orton Fan (Bshrout) you still dont want to believe them.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Feb 19, 2010 10:28 PM MST up reply actions
lol I was wondering because espn splits only show orton with 16 tds passes which tells me its not a complete stat.
Bshrouts work was excellent as usual It was Fan in Exiles work who I didnt agree with .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcTXwZgtDnU
check out the video of Gaffney and realize how much he wasnt on the field because of Eddie even though he was far more productive .
Watch where the passes are thrown but more importantly watch the great protection .
The espn splits have been updated -- they're showing Orton with 21 TDs now
This is why I typically check multiple sites before I cite statistics.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 20, 2010 12:55 PM MST up reply actions
you're absolutely right
I didn’t look at the individual areas, only the totals. They have that same issue in a number of the splits — showing way too few TDs.
I’m guessing someone just updated the totals without addressing the splits.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 20, 2010 2:17 PM MST up reply actions
Awesome Video!! Tech-9?
Crazy how good Orton throws when he’s ON and/or when protected! Gaffney! What a nice F/A group McX brought in last year!!!
We don’t give McX enough credit for their offseason acquisitions… maybe cuz I’m still pissed over a couple other moves…
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 20, 2010 5:43 PM MST up reply actions
I got them from Profootballl Focus
http://profootballfocus.com/by_player.php?tab=by_player&season=2009&surn=O&playerid=2323&group=2
You can say he’s better all you want but I’m not buying it. I’m not buying the Eddie suddenly forgot how to play or catch or something. Ultimately you are what your record says you are and Orton is at 46%.
by Fan in Exile on Feb 21, 2010 11:25 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks for the link Espn doesnt have all the attempts logged
Who said Eddie forgot how to catch ?
The fact of the matter is Eddie was a never the 20+ yard receiving threat anyway .
Last season Eddie caught 23 of his 91 passes over 10 yards downfield …23 and thats with him getting the majority of the reps all to himself . He was a short route receiver whom teams played as a speedster coming in giving him a nice cushion. Well this season they did not and he had to learn how to to get separation underneath and make a variety of underneath style catches like slide catches and Eddie just is not good at those types of catches (see Stoke) but he is still young and learning.
Gaffney this year had 24 catches over 10 yards while splitting reps with Eddie the majority of the season. Both he and Marshall had 7 catches over 25 yards to lead the team.
Gaffney was our best receiver over 15 yards down the field simply because of his route running not his speed . Brandon of course can take a short pass and use his YAC ability to make a play but from a strictly running 15-25 yard pattern it was Gaffney and we simply didnt play him enough in the middle of the season.
As for Ortons 46% Ill take it for a first year in this offense when he plays with a dislocated finger on his throwing hand for a quarter of it.Its not pathetic as you are claiming considering the amount of time in their offenses for the best Qbs .
Rivers 69%
P.Manning 63%
Brees 62%
Brady 58%
Orton 46%
Ill take it for a start because when you look at the actual numbers and not just the percentages you realize that we are talking about Orton completing 12-14 more passes in that range over an this season to get to Bradys numbers and he has mastered our offense.
Another year with Marshall and Gaffney, an improved eddie and I think he gets that number over 50% easily . If we find some type of TE threat that can also block well enough to be on the field all the time and that really helps as guys like Shockey,Gates, ,Clark,and Watson all play big parts in the 10-20 yard passing games of the 4 Qbs I named..
For the record...
I would rank Kyle Orton 14th this year of Quarterbacks. I think he may even be a Top 10 QB next year…it all depends on his ceiling, which I don’t think has been reached yet.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
awesome read
go orton!
"Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
"We laugh to stave off madness."
Great post, BS. Brace yourself everybody, this could be a long ride. lol
In my opinion, I think we should be much more concerned about many other factors other than his arm. His arm is fine. What I haven’t seen so far in this comment thread is anything about Orton’s vision on that play. If you pay attention, his head is looking left and following Scheffler on his route for a very long time. This freezes the safety on the nearside that should be watching Marshall. That hesitation gives Brandon enough time to get extra steps on the safety, before the safety could turn and cover.
What’s even more impressive is that it was only a two (if you count Scheffler) or three (if you count Moreno out of the backfield) receiver play. Scheffler ran a crossing route and Orton eyed him the WHOLE WAY….. Then his eyes came right back to marshall and he launched it. It’s not like he was going through a progression of “okay, stokely is covered, sheff is covered, moreno is covered, okay, I could go to marshall” kind of thing. It’s one of those things where it’s almost as if he knew Marshall was going to be open, pre-snap. He was just looking off the safety to make it a home run.
Orton didn’t feel pressured by the defense because:
1) The defense was in zone coverage, so there was no blitz.
2) The offensive line did a great job of protecting him.
Let’s face it. Orton isn’t anything special when he’s running for his life. I think it’s safe to make that assumption. On this play, he was able to use his eyes to freeze the zone defenders, allowing Brandon to come wide open. Should the safety have been focused on his side of the field? Of course he should have, but Orton’s eyes also made him think Scheffler was the go-to guy and he saw big number 88 trying to sneak onto the near side of the field with the crossing route, so that had to be factoring into his mind. By the time he realized that 15 was behind him, Orton had already released it.
So, what’s the most important thing on that play? Brandon’s catch, Orton’s throw, Orton’s eyes, Scheffler’s route, or the offensive line’s protection? Well, IMO, it’s the offensive line’s protection. Orton can make that throw, Brandon can make that catch, Orton can freeze defenders with his eyes and Scheffler can distract defenses with his route running. However, if the offensive line doesn’t protect, then Orton gets hurried, doesn’t look off defenders, makes poor decision, and throws bad balls, which inevitably are not caught by Brandon Marshall or any other Bronco receivers. It all starts up front. Without those guys, Orton can’t be successful, which is what makes this offseason so important, in terms of getting better on the offensive front.
It’s difficult for me to accurately analyze Orton in the back half of the season. The QB I saw in the first half of the washington game is not the same guy I saw in week 17 against KC. The washington Orton looked like it finally clicked and he was comfortable in the offense and he understood exactly what was going on. The KC Orton looked hurried and desperate, like he knew it was such a big game that maybe effort would will his team to victory. I don’t know if the injury just hurt his mobility or his comfort level or what, but I have a hard time believing that we will see the KC Orton next season. I have some theories about this, but I’ll address those later, as I feel this comment is already getting rather lengthy. In short, I think that the longer he is in this system, the more comfortable and relaxed he will be and I think we can expect his level of play to only increase next season.
I am very excited about the upcoming months, you guys. I really want to get some quality offensive linemen so we can have more plays like this. I have all the faith in the world that Orton will keep learning this system and become more efficient in his decision making. There was a video on one of the posts a few days ago that showed Orton’s mobility in the first game of the season. I think that mobility will continue, especially if he doesn’t get injured again next year. Knock on wood.
I really think we have a great shot of turning into a playoff team if we can start to dominate up front again. That is something Denver has lacked for years now. If we get that back, I think we’ll get more big plays, such as the one BS has shown us, and we’ll be an overall improved offense. I’m actually quite content with our play makers (RB, WR, TE) and Orton’s arm strength, right now, but with a few more pieces on the offensive line, the offense will be able to make plays much easier than in years past.
Sorry for rambling, BS. This was an excellent post and got my mind on one of those classic KB tangents. Once the gears get turning, they just don’t seem to stop. Well now that’s off my chest…..
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 5:33 PM MST reply actions 13 recs
absolutely
We can become a contender with improved line play Defensively as well! they’re both killing us.
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 19, 2010 6:21 PM MST up reply actions
Excellent analogy Kentucky
.We will see some improvement all around now that the head honcho has more time to evaluate the prospects and F/As.
WHy?
Please show me why we will automatically be better next year. Miami and Atlanta both won their divisions 2 years ago only to miss out of the playoffs this year. I’m sure their fans thought sunnier days were ahead. What makes you so sure that we’re going to get better.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Feb 19, 2010 10:29 PM MST up reply actions
I always keep the faith in the face of fire johnny...I'll always be optimistic until proven different.
That’s who I am.
by bfree2bronc on Feb 19, 2010 11:14 PM MST up reply actions
thats fine bfree
I just dont buy the notion that year 2 will automatically be a better year then year 1.
This team has let me down too many times over the last ten years to assume next year will be better. This team is the quintessential example of why next year may not be a better year.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Feb 19, 2010 11:23 PM MST up reply actions
we'll get better because you could throw at a draft dartboard and hit an area of need for this team
So easy a caveman could do it!
We may even go 8-8 again but it’ll be a better 8-8 …one with more hope for the future.
by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 20, 2010 6:48 AM MST up reply actions
Rec'd
I’m looking forward to those comments and theories of yours – as are several of the members.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
Me too KB
*me stands behind Emmett, facing KB and quitely chants “Theories! Theories! Theories!”
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 6:29 PM MST up reply actions
No worries, Doc and BS.
It’s a long offseason. Theories are coming. lol
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 6:43 PM MST up reply actions
hahaha, don't worry about it.
I promise that I will not do a public mock. There are enough mocks, IMO, and if you’ve read through some of the comments, you know exactly how I feel about some of the prospects, anyways. I don’t feel there’s a need for me to make a fanpost about it. Sayre pretty much feeds me all the mock that I can handle, at the moment, anyways. lol
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Feb 19, 2010 8:16 PM MST up reply actions
Are we making a mock-ery of this?
;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 9:52 PM MST up reply actions
+1M
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
by BroncoSense72 on Feb 20, 2010 7:07 AM MST up reply actions
Thanks Brian for the great post.
1) In the video above shows the snap, a fake hand off, a 5 step drop and a 53-54 in the air yard pass…All in a little over 5 seconds.
2) From the snap until Kyle set up was right around 2 seconds and he released the ball right at 3 seconds with the ball in the air for 2. Marshall slightly slowed for catch and was wide open to the endzone.
3) With every relationship there is a getting aquainted period and during that time there is usually an ackward period where both partys are feeling each other out…You know, getting to know one another’s traits, strong points and weak points. It would be wonderful if Kyle Orton and all of the other players on offense had telepathic powers, but they don’t. So the next best thing is that they have to get on the same page with eachother. Does that period take 1 game, 2 games or a whole season? The time frame is dictated by how fast they meld together. We saw some positive things with the offense as the season wore on, but then there were time when a penalty here and a penalty there, then a missed block here and a missed route there. Those little nuances that were made by just about every one of them is a prime indicator that they aren’t on the same page yet, not as of Jan 3rd anyway.
4) The positive part is now they have more time to pour over films and see there own flaws over and over, letting their mind digest it all in to where it starts to click. Look for some great things on offense this season coming up, and there might not even be to many changes made. There will be some though, we all know that.
by bfree2bronc on Feb 19, 2010 8:16 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Gary Kubiak was a great mind
His physical limitations kept him from ever being a great QB. 1 more year in the system doesnt necessary mean a more efficient system. I’m dumfounded how all the smart number crunchers around here dont realize that.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Feb 19, 2010 10:33 PM MST up reply actions
On the one hand JS
I can agree with your point.
My response to that is that I’m not convinced that we have a valid measure of what Orton’s capabilities truly are.
In looking into his history, I’ve not seen any evidence that he was treated as anything other than a placeholder in Chicago where the coaching staff has admitted that they told him to protect the ball and let the running game and defense win the games. That makes it hard for me to believe that there was much of an attempt to improve his game.
I think 2010 will give us a better understanding of what his potential is. If he regresses then, yes, I would have to agree that he has peaked. If his numbers improve, then I’d inclined to say that he has not yet reached his full potential. If the rest of his numbers remain the same, but offensive production is up overall, then I would be lead to believe that while he might at or near his potential, then I’d want additional evidence to convince me in either direction.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 10:57 PM MST up reply actions
I can handle that
But, the question remains, was he kept under wraps in Chicago because the coaches knew his physical limitations. The same can be said about his time in Denver, play safe, let your recievers make the plays and dont turn the ball over.
If he is coached the same way in 2010 as he was his first 5 (6) years in the league I dont think there can be no understating that the coaches realize his physical limitations will ever allow him to be a top notch QB.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Feb 19, 2010 11:06 PM MST up reply actions
No...it was an offense that Orton was never a fit for and he still won....
Purdue ran a spread offense from shot gun, Chicago ran a run first offense form mainly under center. Playing in Chicago hampered his development.
I was listening to Russ Grimm the other dya about his nomination to the hall and heres what he said, “There was 200 players better than me. I was lucky to be drafted to a team that used my skills the best.” He went onto say that some guys just did not make it as they were drafted by the wrong team.
I think this is what happened to Orton, and to be honest, I think that what is crueled Cutler last year….a quarterback traded to a team he was not a fit for.
Just my 2 cents.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
no one ever coached him in Chicago
it has been a chicago philosophy for some time to sort of abandon their QBs. It sounds farfetched, but guys like Em and rocko both had up close views of the situation. One thing about acquiring Cutler, i think it may force them to change their philosophy on that point and join the 21st century….
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 20, 2010 11:12 AM MST up reply actions
I'm just not all that convinced that Turner in Chicago was all that hot of an OC.
For whatever reason they didn’t utilize Kyle’s potential, whether they were concerned with his abilities to lead a passing/run attack or the play-calling scheme that held him back. I tend to believe it is the latter and until proven different, I will stand by with the coaches decision to name Kyle the starter. We may be given some indication of what he thinks of Kyle’s future in denver after free agency and the draft. That will give us more information to go by.
by bfree2bronc on Feb 19, 2010 11:33 PM MST up reply actions
Oh, I wholeheartedly agree on Ron Turner,
Not being a good OC whatsoever, thats why I find it so fustrating when fans rip on Cutler. EAch QB should get a 2nd year with their respective teams before we even consider deciding if someone is a winner or loser in that trade.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
People should feel that way
about the rookies too.I think alot of Broncos will have better years,their 2nd year in the same scheme
by Broncolorado on Feb 21, 2010 1:27 PM MST up reply actions
only room for improvement, right!
I hope we can keep that big target in the mix for him to throw at!
Funny
You started off saying exactly what i feel and goes on in my house whenever something like that happens to my Broncos. Great post my friend. Love the longball!! :-)
Tony
http://www.trustyfotografie.com
http://www.anchoragedaily.net
http://broncosfamily.blogspot.com
YPC
If you look at the yards per completion, Orton was 7.0. Only Sanchez and Palmer of the playoff teams were lower. Manning 7.9 and Brees 8.5 got to the Super Bowl. With all the passes, that .9 and 1.5 make for a significant difference. Orton needs to get to 8.25 to really make the offense as productive as McDaniels wants it to be. I think he can make that jump in 2010.
Orangeman
Thanks for that added observation
I hadn’t yet looked at yards per catch for any of the QBs. What your observation tells me is that Orton and the offense were able to perform in the general ballpark of the playoff teams.
Are they there yet? Nope. Can they get there? Certainly. I’m inclined to believe that we have not heard much out of Dove Valley to-date because McDaniels and the coaching staff are busy evaluating our players & looking at the draft to see what they have and what they need to move the Broncos to the next level.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 10:24 PM MST up reply actions
I don't think we will
ever know what their evaluations are on any player. Doesn’t seem to be the way McX does things. That is why I get so frustrated when members here go on record saying that the coaching staff are not high on Tom B. etc. We don’t know what they think of him or any other player. My frustrations with all of this is everyone keeps throwing out there what they think instead of what they know. We, none of us, know what the coaching staff or front office thinks period.
Sorry for the rant.
by papasteven on Feb 20, 2010 3:14 PM MST up reply actions 4 recs
rec'd for this statement:
We, none of us, know what the coaching staff or front office thinks period.
That is precisely the point that I believe gets lost on both sides of the argument, no matter how many times it gets said — and I’ve heard it from both pro-McDaniels/Orton writers and Not-pro-McDaniels/Orton writers.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 20, 2010 4:23 PM MST up reply actions
Papa
Thank you.. For putting it so bluntly that everyone can understand it. No one knows what the coaching staff thinks or assumes. I get so tired of hearing stats thrown out with out no true understanding of exactly of how this team plans to move forward.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Feb 20, 2010 11:52 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Are you really saying
Orton needs to average better than Peyton Manning? That seems to be setting an overly high standard.
by Dwhite on Feb 21, 2010 1:02 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Well done Brian
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Thanks Kirk
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 19, 2010 11:01 PM MST up reply actions
Good read dude.
I find it quite interesting that during the reign of he who shall not be named me (and many others) where often wondering why we hardly ever went deep and when we did it always failed.. i wonder what his deep passes were from 2008 compared to Orton’s in 2009..
From what i have read on this site, Orton had a plently big enough arm when at college.. and he went very close to breaking a few of Bree’s records at Purdue.. Bree’s is a top tier QB.. with a very good qb coach.. Orton is now a mid tier QB who has recently acquired a v good QB coach.. Ron Turner and the old chicago mindset went a long way to messing with Orton’s potential.. along with his healthy fear of DT’s gained from a porous O-Line.. all these things have definitely had an effect on him..
One thing that i always bear in mind regarding McDaniels as a QB coach is that he took Matt Cassel from an utterly useless NFL player to a proficient, highly paid QB within the course of one season.. He helped Cassel focus on his strengths and away from his weaknesses.. Admittedly he now has many more responsibilities than just QB coach and O coach.. but he did spend a lot of time with Kyle last year.. and IMO Kyle was stating to look a lot more polished by the end of the season..
Regardless of whether Kyle is our future.. he is certainly our present and deserves to be given the benefit of the doubt for this coming season .. if he doesn’t show much promise this year then we will have to look elsewhere.. Maybe drafting another QB in this draft isn’t a bad idea.. but we are not looking for a day one starter.. so first round is a no go.. and probably second and third as well what with all our other needs.
I would be willing to go on record and say that Kyle has a break out year this year.. and will once again be better than Jay.. who will still be learning the ins and outs or Martz’s offense. His Chemistry will have improved with the WR’s his reads will be more sure because he will be acting more intuitively due to not having to over think the playbook so he can just read and react on the field.. I also think that McDaniels play calling will be improved this year, he will have got the hang of our team and it’s players and will be able to use them to our advantage.. last year he seemed at times like his ideas and the players where still gelling together.. i expect that to change. I also expect Kyle to be a proper Offensive leader and bring us back from behind and take the tough wins.. Grit and determination are qualities that i want to see in him next year..
Anyways bring on the draft and free agency.. can’t wait to see which areas we will improve on.. hoping for a certain ILB at 10/11 but would be happy with many other prospects.. as this draft seems like it’s full of talent!
by HorseStance on Feb 20, 2010 7:07 AM MST reply actions 3 recs
Let's see a healthy year from Orton
before we start trying to compare him around the league. I cannot think of one singe QB anywhere who played through a compound dislocation of the index finger on this throwing hand; a high ankle sprain; a brand new, radically different offensive system; new players all around him—all together at once.
It’s just ridiculous to think we’ve seen Orton’s best football . . .
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
by AZDynamics on Feb 20, 2010 10:41 PM MST reply actions 1 recs

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