Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Please, Someone Make Bob Sapp Stop Already

Orton Theories

It’s difficult for me to accurately analyze Orton in the back half of the season. The QB I saw in the first half of the washington game is not the same guy I saw in week 17 against KC. The washington Orton looked like it finally clicked and he was comfortable in the offense and he understood exactly what was going on. The KC Orton looked hurried and desperate, like he knew it was such a big game that maybe effort would will his team to victory. I don’t know if the injury just hurt his mobility or his comfort level or what, but I have a hard time believing that we will see the KC Orton next season. I have some theories about this, but I’ll address those later, as I feel this comment is already getting rather lengthy. In short, I think that the longer he is in this system, the more comfortable and relaxed he will be and I think we can expect his level of play to only increase next season.

This was an excerpt from a comment I posted on Brian Shrout's post found here. The post was about "the long ball", but my brain drifted to Kyle Orton's whole body of work, as you can see from the comment I posted(or part of the comment, anyways). Well, it is "later", so let's get into some theories. Jump.

Star-divide

 

I've been wrestling with some questions for quite some time, now. It was hard to make definitive analysis right after the season is over, because emotions were still high, so I just stored some ideas in the old memory bank and let them collect interest. I feel like I've given it enough time and there have been numerous discussions about this topic recently, so it is time to lay it all out there.

Why did Kyle Orton play with increasing effectiveness from week 1 up until week 10 but he didn't play with as much effectiveness after week 10? How much, if at all, are Orton's problems related to other units on the offense?

First of all, let's qualify what "effectiveness" means, because I'm sure that I'll get comments about how I lack details and my post is too short. For the sake of this post, effectiveness means knowing the offensive gameplan, knowing the tendencies of the defense, performing at a high level on Sunday to capitalize on your preparedness throughout the week and winning the MF game. If you want statistics, it can mean getting the W, throwing for a high completion percentage, throwing more TDs than INTs, etc.

Here's one stat that emphasizes "effectiveness" and also helps all you stat guys to better understand where I'm coming from and why I even asked myself those questions. Kyle Orton had 5 games with a QB rating over 96. Of those five games, exactly ZERO of them happened after week 10. Of course, QB rating is loved by some and hated by others, however, for the general purposes of evaluating Orton's performance over the entire season, it's worth noting.

For the purposes of this post, I'm going to stay away from stats, for a little bit, because we already have TJ and BS that dominate and out-stat me any day of the week. This won't be a primarily stats post, but I will use a few stats from time to time if they help clarify a point, in some way.

 

 

So, back to the questions. Why did Kyle Orton play with increasing effectiveness from week 1 up until week 10 but he didn't play with as much effectivness after week 10? How much, if at all, are Orton's problems related to other units on the offense?

I think a lot of members have danced around some answers to Kyle Orton's problems, but haven't put it all together. I think is a collection of things. Nothing about the game of football can be explained by pointing out one particular thing. It's normally a collection of things that contribute to the whole. Kyle Orton's struggle is a multi-variable problem, with not all of the variables stemming from his ability (or inability, as some members have stated). The simple answer would be "he was injured". While this is an obvious event that did happen in week 10 and does play some part in the downfall at the end of the season, it doesn't explain everything. The issue is much deeper than just his ankle.

 

 

Week to week

We'll start at the beginning, as most stories do, and quickly go through and see if we can find some trends or tendencies throughout the season that contributed to the downfall of Orton and the offense. I'll try to be as brief, as possible, so we can get to the analysis, but I also want to make sure that we get a chronological idea of some major events that are happening.

(Feel free to skip over this section if you feel confident about recalling the basic events of each game of the season. If you are like me and have a spotty memory, at times, then soldier on. You can do it. I believe in you. It will be brief and painless, I promise.)

The preseason game we all remember. Orton threw all kinds of interceptions and was boo'd out of the stadium. He didn't pass the stats test, but he didn't pass the eye test, either. He looked like a deer in the headlights, which was to be expected since he was that new to McD's system. As the preseason continued, he started to settle down and his TD/INT ratio began to improve. Then he hurt his finger. Oh boy.

Then came week 1. Orton had that awesome finger brace and played decent. The game was about field position. The offense didn't move very much, but the defense kept us in the game and we were saved by the miracle pass. The physical ability, alone, for a guy to throw the ball that far with a finger that looked like a mangled hot dog is very impressive to me. But I digress.

Weeks 2 and 3 go by, Orton is developing in the system, learning more and more, while his finger improves. The running game kept us afloat and our offensive line was playing really well.

Weeks 4 and 5 came and went, where Orton actually put up some respectable numbers (4 TDs and 1 INT that was a hail mary thrown to Randy Moss at the end of the first half). He even had a 98 yard scoring drive to take the NE game to overtime and a 56 yard drive to win the game in overtime.

Week 6 against the chargers, Orton put up 2 TDs with 0 picks. Respectable.

Then the bye week. This was a turning point in the team's confidence. I'll go into more detail later, but overall, the Broncos grew overconfident, up to this point, and after their loss to Pittsburgh, they became discouraged. Again, I'll go into more depth, but let this just marinate in your mind for a little bit.

Weeks 8 and 9, we were blown up by the Steelers and Ravens. It was dismal. We were beat up on both sides of the ball. The bottom line is that you can't lose the line of scrimmage on offense and defense. You will lose 99.9% of the games you play. Ryan Harris suffers a toe injury. More on that later.

Week 10 was THE WEEK. This game was played in Washington and marked the turning point of the Broncos season. Coming off 2 tough losses, the Broncos aired it out early. Kyle Orton threw two bombs for TDs and threw 2 feet too far on another pass, missing on a 3rd bomb in the first half. Kyle Orton looked comfortable. He was looking off defenders, throwing very well, putting up a 134 QB rating and 193 yards before halftime. Unfortunately, at the end of the first half, Orton suffered a nasty ankle injury.

Week 11, Orton was thrown to the wolves in SD. He was obviously limited in mobility and power (you throw with your legs, as much as with your arm), not to mention that Simms put Orton in a major hole by making early mistakes..... and being inept as a Broncos QB. 

Weeks 12 and 13, Orton did okay. The ankle was still bugging him, but he did what he had to do to win the games. The broncos never trailed in these two games.

Week 14 against Indy, his completion percentage was 70%, due to Indy's zone defense and Marshall's record setting receptions. He dinked and dunked, but the early deficit was too much to overcome. In this game, I think that Orton did all that he could, but since the Broncos were behind early, Orton had to go short when he wanted to go deep because that's what the Indy defense dictated. I could go on and on, but there are all kinds of fanposts about this back in the archives. Look for the series "Upon Further Review". That's always a good one if you want to see matchups, team strategies, tendencies and all that fun stuff. 

Week 15 against the raiders, Orton threw 1 TD and 0 INTs. So, it was a pedestrian day for Orton. It didn't help that the defense couldn't stop the Raiders running game and the Broncos running game was...... bad. 2.9 yards per carry versus 7.1 yards per carry. That pretty much tells the tale. 

Week 16 against the eagles, the Broncos had that game won. McNabb somehow got the first down on a third and 25 from the Philly 15 yard line. That was bad and it changed the field position battle in the fourth quarter. Orton played pretty well, though. 3 TDs and 1 INT. 65.9 percent completion percentage. . 

Week 17 against KC was bad. There's no two ways about it. 3 picks with 2 of them returned to the house is a bad day. It would have helped if the Broncos could have stopped Jamaal Charles from rushing for 259 yards, though.

 

 

So, week by week, we've seen a very broad picture of what Orton has done, throughout the season. Let's get specific, diagnose what happened and answer the questions. I'll ask them again, in case you forgot and so you don't have to scroll back to the top. Why did Kyle Orton play with increasing effectiveness from week 1 up until week 10 but he didn't play with as much effectiveness after week 10? How much, if at all, are Orton's problems related to other units on the offense?

 

The System

Kyle was learning a new system. He slowly started to understand it and get more comfortable in it. In week 10, Orton had his best game of the season and seemed very comfortable executing the offense, before his injury. After that, a number of variables factored into him being less effective than he had been, previously. There have been estimates that the system can be fully learned in 2 years. Orton has been in it for about six months. He's got room to grow into this system and improve by studying and practicing in the offseason. I think that he has the potential to be even better than he showed in the Washington game,.

 

Confidence

During the bye week, the team, as a whole (including Orton), played differently. Maybe they all took a trip to Tahiti during the bye and their minds didn't return with them? Maybe their egos got the best of them and they thought they were better than they actually were? I tend to think it is the latter, although a vacation would have been nice. Going into the bye, the team was confident about the way they had played and the week off gave them time to think about how good they were. Going into Pittsburgh, they were overconfident. They  were beaten badly. After that, they became discouraged. They played worse than they were. If you go into a game doubting your abilities, whether you voice it or not, your chances of victory are vastly reduced. As fans, you can feel that, as well.

Quick digression.... It makes me think about how important the Stokely miracle catch was. After that win, we played with extraordinary confidence. It's speculation to think about what would have happened if the miracle catch hadn't happened, but it definitely could have changed the overall confidence of the team and erased a few of our first six wins. The confidence that was created in week 1 was built upon as the weeks continued, making the Broncos more and more confident as the wins came rolling in.

The 2008 Broncos were a prime example of playing poorly when trailing and lacking the confidence to come back from a deficit. When they got down by a touchdown, my heart sank because I knew that it would be the struggle of a lifetime trying to come back from that. Turnovers and a poor defense certainly factored into that lack of confidence, but, nevertheless, any deficit seemed like an insurmountable one. In contrast,with the 2009 Broncos, in weeks 1 through 6, it seemed like they were overcoming first half deficits every week (in part to the confidence built upon the week 1 victory). It felt like the Broncos were always in the game, even if they'd spot the Cowboys 10 points before halftime or the Patriots 10 points before halftime.

On the back half of the season, however, when the Broncos would fall behind, it didn't feel as if we had as much of a chance, as we did earlier in the season. You can only imagine that the players felt the same way. They are people, too. They think, too. They get discouraged, too. They probably felt the exact same way that we did. During the KC game when you thought to yourself "here we go, again", there were probably players on the sidelines thinking the exact same thing.

Here's a note for you stat people. In the final 10 games, we won 2 games. In those two games, we never trailed. The Broncos led the whole way. They didn't spot the chiefs (week 12) or giants (week 13) 10 points like they did in the first 6 weeks. In their losses, they trailed at some point in the game (obviously). From my point of view, it's almost as if they got discouraged when they fell behind and tried to rush to get the lead. In their haste, they made mistakes which, inevitably, put them in a bigger hole, causing more discouragement and more haste. That, and the Broncos defense was bad and couldn't stop the run, but that's another fanpost, in itself.

 

Injuries and Fatigue

Kyle battled two different injuries. He injured his finger in the preseason and he injured his ankle in week 10. Yes, the injuries did have an impact in Kyle's play on the field. The ankle injury, especially, limited his mobility and power.

The offensive line also struggled with injuries. The big one was Ryan Harris. He was injured against Baltimore. He tried to come back, but he injured the same toe and was put on Injured Reserve. His presence, or lack thereof, was very significant. If you haven't read TJ's post about the running game and how Ryan Harris influenced it, it is definitely worth a read here

Fatigue also plays a factor in weakening the offensive line, especially with older players such as Hamilton, Hochstein and Weigmann. This could explain why they didn't show their weakness in the first few weeks, but over time, the line grew worse and worse. Kyle Orton was sacked 3 times in weeks 13, 14, 15 and 16 and twice in week 17. That is 14 sacks in the final five games of the season. On the season, there were 29 sacks on Kyle Orton, so almost half of those came in the final third of the season. Were some of those sacks because of his lack of mobility following his ankle injury? Probably, but the offensive line will not be given a pass, either.

How are the offensive line's struggles related to Kyle Orton's struggles? Sometimes, the run sets up the pass and other times the pass sets up the run. The similarity in both cases is that you need blocking to run and you need blocking to pass. Blocking is very important in the overall execution of an offense. Once you realize you can't run on third and short or you can't pass protect long enough for a longer route or you get blown up in the redzone and so on, you have to limit the number of plays you can run from your playbook. Good blocking makes all plays easier to run and opens up your offense to run a variety of different things. The jets, for example, rode deep into the playoffs behind their great offensive line and great defense. There wasn't anything spectacular about their offensive weapons, but they would win by beating you up for 4 quarters and taking big chunks of yardage when the defense cheated up to stop the run. The Broncos offensive line was nothing like that. At times, we had trouble stopping a four man front, let alone making the defense cheat up to stop the run or pressure the QB. We need to improve up front to take the next step in the offense.

 

 

So, what are we left with? Well, as far as I'm concerned, I think we've found the answers to the questions.

Kyle Orton's problems were caused by his unfamiliarity with the system, his injuries, Ryan Harris' injuries, fatigue from the older interior offensive linemen, and lack of confidence from the Broncos, going down the stretch. Part of the blame goes to Orton, part of the blame goes to his teammates, and part of the blame goes to uncontrollable circumstances such as injuries.

 

Moving forward, there are two things that can be controlled. Orton will progress in the system because of increased exposure to it and the Broncos will likely replace some interior linemen, this offseason. That should help the Broncos tremendously, going into next season.

Obviously, nobody can control injuries. They happen sometimes. Hopefully, in the case of Ryan Harris, he will be able to recover in time to start the season. If he can't, we may be looking for another tackle, although having depth is never a bad thing, anyways. For fatigue, there are a few things that we can do. We can get younger interior linemen in the offseason or put the older players on some sort of different training regimen so they are fresher, down the stretch. Personaly, I think that we should just scrap Hamilton and Weigmann and bring in some different guys through the draft and free agency.

Confidence is a different story, all together. It's easy to say "don't get discouraged", but it is another thing to put that statement into practice. Next season, if we start 0-3, guys will get discouraged. That's how it goes, sometimes. So, the best way to avoid confidence issues is to win a bunch of games, like we did in the first 6 weeks, while at the same time, trying to prevent overconfidence. It's tough to find that balance, but it is vitally important to the overall success of the team.

 

So, enjoy the offseason and look for the Broncos to improve along the offensive front (although there are other areas of concern, unrelated to Orton and the offense). Notice that I didn't say, one way or the other, whether I think Orton will be a longterm solution, going forward. He is the answer next season, in my opinion, based on his experience and growth, so far, in McD's system. However, to determine if he is the Broncos QB in 2011 and beyond, we'll need to see how he does in 2010. That's a situation I'm going to leave in my memory bank, for a while. Theories abound.

Well, it's been fun to theorize with you all and I hope to hear some of your theories, as well. Add some new variables I didn't address and expand upon the ones I touched on. The next time I get an idea, I look forward to sharing them with you all.

 

 

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 81 comments  |  23 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

This

You have some very good observations KB.

I liked your discussion of the guys getting discouraged. I remember hearing McDaniels in an interview comment about how “we didn’t respond well to adversity” while discussing the team’s losing streaks.

Like you, I’m a firm believer that the epic collapse of 2009 in the final 10 games had a multiplicity of contributing factors, and that the responsibility (I dislike using the word “blame”) for those shortcomings were shared by everyone in Dove Valley. McDaniels could have done a better job preparing his team and making in-game adjustments. The team could have done a better job of executing the game plan, individual players could have done a better job of minimizing their mistakes, etc, etc.

I’ve been encouraged by the fact that so far, in the off season, Dove Valley has been relatively quiet. It lends credence to McDaniels’ repeated statements that they were going to take a month or so and evaluate everything – from the coaches to the players to the game-planning. I’m inclined to believe that once Free Agency opens March 5th, we’ll start to see indications of what direction the Broncos are going to address the many problem areas they had.

As a footnote, and an aside: KB you have a keen eye for looking at the overall picture and discerning patterns, trends and tendencies. I’d urge you to consider contacting kaptainkirk about joining the Upon Further Review project. You’d be a valuable addition to it.

For any other members, I’d like to echo the recruitment spiel I just gave KB. If you like watching the Broncos and would be willing to watch one of their games each week — and review it several times — consider joining UFR. It’s a fun thing to be a part of.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Feb 20, 2010 12:07 PM MST reply actions  

And now that the commercial is over (sorry about that KB)

we return you to your regularly scheduled fan post.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Feb 20, 2010 12:07 PM MST up reply actions  

haha, it's cool, BS.

Your thoughts are always welcome and I really appreciate it. It is definitely refreshing to have a quiet offseason, so far. No news is good news, as far as I’m concerned. I can’t wait for March 5th, either.

I’m definitely considering joining UFR. It does look like a fun series to be a part of. At this point, it’s a little uncertain about where my engineering co-op will take me in the fall (could be Korea, Germany, Denver, Southern California, Louisville, New York, Florida, Chicago, etc). Once I get all of that figured out, I should be able to decide whether or not I can take on a task like that. I’d rather not send KK a message now and then find out in a month or so that I might not be able to do it. That would be rather irresponsible, on my part, and I hate making commitments that I can’t keep.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 12:24 PM MST up reply actions  

All you would need is NFL Rewind and an internet connection

UFR operates using Google Docs and a preset template that permits you to observe and record what you see. It takes 2-4 hours per week, but folks should know that Kaptain Kirk Davis has been organizing what each member hands in and turns it into a single document which takes a whole lot longer. Big props to him for that part of the production, and to every one of those folks who broke down film to make sure that MHR had the highest possible information. Congratulations, guys. Great job!

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 20, 2010 6:37 PM MST up reply actions  

Agreed

Props to Kirk.

It should also be noted that Emmett originated the idea and provided the group with the template we are using.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Feb 20, 2010 9:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks guys

I have been contacted by one member already and there is room for more. It is challenging, fun, and a learning experience for all.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Feb 22, 2010 10:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Great post man

REC’D

You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?

You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen

by johnnystarr on Feb 20, 2010 12:25 PM MST reply actions  

Thanks. And thanks for reading.

I know that it was a long one and quite an investment of your time, but I’m glad you enjoyed it and got something out of it.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 1:25 PM MST up reply actions  

Nice kb!

Orton is not the problem, nor the answer. My hope is, we draft one of the top prospects, but Orton flourishes next year and gets a bigger contract for it. Our rookie waits in the wings. Maybe we can be in the dilemma Phil. is now and GB was. When they feel it’s time for the young gun, kick the old guy to the curb. You know, like we did with Plummer.

"Just trying to win a MF game."

by Digger24 on Feb 20, 2010 1:07 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

I can accept that. I am in favor of getting a good young QB.

The one thing I would hope for is that Orton is given a chance. I think that Orton is going to have a good year in 2010, especially if we can upgrade the offensive line.

Plummer got a bit of a raw deal when he was benched, in my opinion. Obviously, Cutler had talent, but he was still young and learning, while Plummer was the more experienced player who had shown he knows how to win, but was having a few rough weeks. That happens, from time to time. I look at a guy like Drew Brees, as an example. From all SD accounts, they thought that he was done for and didn’t want to take a chance by resigning him after his injury. He wasn’t done, though. Plummer is kinda like that. He had a rough couple of games when “bad Jake” showed up, but instead of letting him fight through it and see if he could turn it around and revert back to his winning ways, we kicked him to the curb. Hopefully, Orton doesn’t take a few games off and we won’t be in a situation to pull the trigger on a young QB, but if it does happen, I hope that McD really thinks hard and examines whether or not Orton is just incapable of improving or if he is just having a bad couple of weeks.

I think you are right on with your idea about Philly or GB. I think that the Aaron Rogers situation was ideal. In that case, they had let Aaron sit in the wings for a while, learn from one of the greatest and then brought him in once Favre was done (or so we thought).

I’m in favor of doing something like that, as long as we have a legitimate young QB who can absolutely offer more than what Orton can offer us. Frankly, I think that Orton’s best days are ahead of him, so the bar should be that much higher when the time comes to make a change. I’m really looking forward to seeing what we are going to do this offseason, though. I wish FA and the draft would come sooner. The waiting game is killing me.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 1:24 PM MST up reply actions   2 recs

Rec'd the whole post, and this comment

You put it perfectly with how I feel about the Plummer situation. And the Orton post overall, solid gold KB. (Although my nit-picky side wishes we would stop referring to the Cincy play as a “miracle,” but I digress….)

- Nick

"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.

by ncm42 on Feb 20, 2010 1:55 PM MST up reply actions  

hahaha, sorry about that.

There have been lots of discussions about the “miracle catch” and whether it was luck or skill or whatever. I’m in the middle. It was preparation that put Stokley in the position to make that catch and it was poor execution by the Bengals defenders when all three of them decided to clean clock Brandon Marshall instead of knock down the ball.

I don’t know why I put miracle. I guess I couldn’t find the right word that described it. I just went with what all the pundits called it. hahaha. Shame on me, I know.

Either way, it was poor diction, on my part, but I just couldn’t figure out anything else to call it. If you have suggestions, let me know. That is what makes fanposts so great. I finally get a chance to edit things if I screw up. hahaha

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 2:01 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh no, it's really not that big a deal.

I apologize if I came across as snarky. Just one of those little things that has irked me as it continued through the season. When it was up for play of the year, I felt the “miracle” talk took too much away from Stokley. Lucky bounce, for sure, but then Stokley showed everything you want to instill in young players: awareness, attacking the ball, playing to the whistle, knowing the time/field position/score situation, hustle, presence of mind to burn clock, not risking a turnover by burning TOO much clock…

But I may be taking it all too seriously. And I do NOT want to detract by what I feel is THE definitive take so far on “What happened to Orton?” I always look forward to your take on things, and I think this post might be my favorite KB work so far.

Fingers crossed you get assigned to MF’ing Denver!

- Nick

"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.

by ncm42 on Feb 20, 2010 2:11 PM MST up reply actions  

detract "from," not "by"....

Fingers work faster than brain, apparently.

- Nick

"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.

by ncm42 on Feb 20, 2010 2:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Trust me, my fingers are crossed for MF'ing Denver, too.

Your tone was fine. I figured it wasn’t a big issue, but for some silent MHR lurker, it might have been a point that they were still concerned about. I agree with you. Back in week 2 or 3 or 4, there was all that talk of how the Broncos were a lucky team. I don’t believe in that. You create your own luck and Stokley definitely did what he needed to do to put himself in a position to make the play.

It’s no big deal. I don’t feel this conversation detracted from anything. I always seem to have a digression about something, anyways. You read my post, so you know that. hahaha. In another sense, Orton did throw that ball in the Cincy game, so he was involved in that play, thus the Stokley play was related to Orton. So, actually, we could say this wasn’t a digression, at all.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 2:27 PM MST up reply actions  

hahhahaaahahah

Thanks for having my back!

- Nick

"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.

by ncm42 on Feb 20, 2010 2:39 PM MST up reply actions  

haha, any time.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 2:42 PM MST up reply actions  

I just got around to reading this most excellent post

Everybody already said everything I’d say. Crazy how much in agreement we’re all in of late! It’s about time for somebody to shake it up…. Maybe KO could kick his dog or something…

by Whidbey Bronco on Feb 25, 2010 4:47 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I believe it was a combination of several factors.

After the great motivation win against the Giants and then the blowout of the Chiefs at home, the trip to Indy was one of a trickle effect that left the team with an 0-4 record to close out the season. The beginning of the Colts game may have left us some clues to the down fall. The offense started out sluggish and seemed to be tight. Whether they feared what the Colts could bring them is only known by the players, but one thing for sure, the offense struggled. This game was very winnable and they probably saw that after they got back to Dove Valley to watch the film. Then the tRaider game at home. This game should have been won outright and again the offense made several mistakes that ultimately cost them. Then again in Philly, another game we could have won after coming back from a 17 point deficit, only to let McNabb win the game in the end. The blame can’t be laid squarely on Kyle’s shoulders, everybody on the offense and defense has to share the blame. It becomes tiring and boring the hear people say it’s kyle this or Kyle that. This subject should have been put to rest long ago, because so much has a;ready been raked over coals. Not that it’s your fault or anybody elses, this is a great post and needs to be discussed once again…I guess it doesn’t hurt.

by bfree2bronc on Feb 20, 2010 1:36 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Good points, bfree. I agree. +1

A lot of those games at the end of the season were winnable. You are right. Kyle Orton doesn’t get or deserve all of the blame. There need to be a bunch of fingers to point the blame at all the players and at the coaching staff. This post wasn’t intended to try and dissect each and every loss and the reasons why we lost each game and I apologize if it came off that way. I was just using the game by game overview to try and show that Orton’s effectiveness increased almost linearly for the first half of the season and then the growth ended about week 10 when many of our offensive struggles emerged.

Many posts and comments described Orton’s problem as being solely on his injury or his lack of lack of arm strength or lack of protection and so on. However, I felt there needed to be a post that brought them all together, since a multitude of factors went into it. It’s great that there was already the foundation of TJ’s post and BS’s post that I could draw from, so I just tried to bring all of the ideas that people have had and pull them together with a few of my own. You are right that this should have been put to rest, a while ago. Hopefully, we can get everything out in the open and put this Kyle Orton talk to bed.

For the purposes of this post, in trying to figure out what happened with Kyle Orton, specifically, the points of blame are still numerous. All the units are interconnected, as I mentioned earlier, and it’s difficult to point at one specific location and say “oh, hey, this is the exact problem and it’s entirely on Kyle Orton’s shoulders”. There are a number of factors that go into it, as you and I both mentioned.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 1:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Ha Ha...My spear was pointed at the heart of the Orton haters...Not you at all.

I just get a little beside myself when I hear the Orton must go theory tossed around by some. There are alot more factors to consider before he gets bashed. Now if the O-Line is upgraded and the running game get up and going and he doesn’t perform the way he should, then I will be the first one on here to bash him. This is a joke, but if I was McDaniels I would do everything in my power to get Jimmy Clausen. The kid was born in a nfl style offense, mentored under Charlie Weis and he has a ton of talent. I see good things with this kid in the right scheme and system…maybe like ours…

by bfree2bronc on Feb 20, 2010 4:23 PM MST up reply actions  

haha, keep that thing sharp, bfree.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 6:17 PM MST up reply actions  

I was big on Clausen too.

But what do you make of the reports that he has something of a bad attitude, bordering on Culterish? I tend to take criticism of college players this time of year with a grain of salt, because we all know the smallest thing will get blown out of proportion leading up to the Combine and the Draft, but I really don’t want to see another coddled, sullen pouter under center here….

- Nick

"We got 'em right where we want 'em!" - Keith Bishop, right before John Elway orchestrated The Drive. 'Nuff said.

by ncm42 on Feb 21, 2010 12:04 PM MST up reply actions  

ncm42 did you read my post on Jimmy Clausen?

it might give you some insight into the kids life and how he grew up in football. You can see it <a href=“http://ArchivesBroncosScheduleRosterStats.”Man In The Wilderness" Quarterback Jimmy Clausen, Part I " >here I hope

by bfree2bronc on Feb 21, 2010 6:02 PM MST up reply actions  

Excellent Analysis.

I know for a fact some members have been looking forward to this sort of FanPost, so please keep up the good work!

MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!

by ejruiz on Feb 20, 2010 5:16 PM MST reply actions  

Yeah, I got word of the need and I was more than happy to do it.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 6:18 PM MST up reply actions  

# 10 for you KB...Good job!!!

-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!

by BroncoSense72 on Feb 20, 2010 6:16 PM MST reply actions  

Thanks for reading it, B72.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 20, 2010 6:19 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree with your post KB

Nice job and rec’d!

"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche

by Horsepower on Feb 20, 2010 6:43 PM MST reply actions  

Thanks for reading it, HP.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 9:38 AM MST up reply actions  

Excellent overall view KB

The Broncos can get on a roll like the rest of them when the confidence is high and breaks go our way. However they can’t seem to deal when things go the other way. I really hope McDaniels and the staff drive this one home because they need to figure it out.

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Feb 20, 2010 11:11 PM MST reply actions  

Definitely.

That is often the defining quality of great teams. Great teams seem to be able to come back from any deficit. You get down a touchdown early? No problem. We’ll just go down the field and beat you when all the chips are down.

I definitely agree with you. The biggest thing that McD needs to do is make this team mentally strong. Mental toughness is vitally important to any team, not just football.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 9:42 AM MST up reply actions  

I think the thing that makes me leery

Of Orton and don’t trust his ability to be the long term future of the broncos, is he has a schizophrenic way of playing QB, frankly his entire career. He can play so well for a game or some games and then completely regress and play poorly or even afraid others.

I believe that is why he would be a good back up, because he could come in with little pressure for a few games during the season if needed due to injury to the stater and perform well, without having to carry that type of perfomance through a 16 game schedule.

by broncos314 on Feb 21, 2010 12:41 PM MST reply actions  

Well, apart from the explanation I gave above, 2009 was the only year in the NFL that he played in all 16 regular season games.

Even this past year, he was injured. Whether or not he would have continued his progression throughout the season, had the factors I mentioned previously didn’t happen, who knows?

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 10:12 AM MST up reply actions  

That would also be something to consider...No?

If he has been injured every season, why do you expect that to change?

by miner00 on Feb 22, 2010 12:32 PM MST up reply actions  

hmmmm.....It's something to consider, but at the same time, look at where he came from.

Chicago has been notorious in the past few years of having QBs that need to run for their lives. Fortunately for him, he is in a situation where he doesn’t have do to that…… as much. He is much safer in Denver, IMO, but in 2009 he has had some freak things happen to him. Hitting a helmet with his hand while following through on a pass? Getting tackled from behind and having your ankle get twisted? I’m not sure that you can say that those injuries represent a pattern of injury. They were just freak incidences.

If we were talking about all of Kyle’s injuries being the same type of injury, every time, or if he was suffering from a chronic knee problem or something like that, then it’s a different story. I just think that he just had abnormally terrible luck this year, from an injury standpoint.

When I said that he hasn’t played in all 16 games, I didn’t mean it as if “he’s been injured every year so he couldn’t finish a season”. He hasn’t. Chicago just didn’t start him because they were behind Rex Grossman, so Kyle’s ability to lead a team for a full season is just starting to be realized. Players abilities do not stay the same, for the most part, especially with a cerebral guy like Kyle, so I expect him to progress as a quarterback the longer he is in this system.

Sorry for the poor choice of words there, miner. What I meant to say was “Kyle Orton was not a starter for a full season in Chicago. This year, in Denver, he was supposed to be the starter the entire season, but an injury hindered him from playing the final half of the Washington game and the first few series of the SD game.” I am not trying to say that Kyle Orton has an injury bug.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 12:52 PM MST up reply actions  

I would argue that he does have a pattern on the Ankle...

He had an ankle injury late in ’08 while in Chicago. And then again this year. Not enough to call a pattern…yet. Freak incidents do tend to happen more often when you have an existing problem.

In my mind, KO does have questionable ankles right now. That is not helped by his lack of mobility when healthy.

The finger thing was pretty flukey though.

by miner00 on Feb 22, 2010 1:30 PM MST up reply actions  

That's valid.

There was a video posted last week (I think it was last week. It could have been longer ago) that showed Orton’s mobility in week one against Cincy. He actually looked pretty good. I would even venture far enough to say that he looked “agile”. It was kinda scary, actually.

His ankles could use some more tape during games or perhaps an ankle brace, I definitely agree with that. I’ve got quite a few ankle braces from my high school days that I could send to him. If it keeps those ankles healthy, I would even give them away for free. It would be worth it, to me.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 1:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Orton's ankles

Some people have missed that Orton injured a different ankle this year than last. While that’s a reasonable concern, ti doesn’t really qualify for a pattern of injury. If he had injured it in college (and for all I nowm, he did and it’s just not in the research), that would be different.

McD has this one right – Orton needs to spend this offseason getting into Bronco shape. With Tuten able to teach what he thinks is right, the long parade of Denver hammie injuries came to a halt – did you notice that? Orton has an offseason to learn a series of exercises that will strengthen his ankles. If there’s a glitch in his footwork that’s contributing, he can get that dealt with as well. It is less than a year since Orton came to Denver. His numbers went up quickly. He’s still got a long way to go. Can he?

That’s the great thing about this year for Denver. They can give him a limited amount of time and find out. If he numbers go up and his injuries don’t, he could be a good starter. If not, he’s an excellent backup – he’d be one of the best, and other teams might grab for him. There are much worse QBs out there, after all, and some of them are starting.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 22, 2010 2:00 PM MST up reply actions   2 recs

All I know...

…is that every time I see Orton get injured against Washington, I conclude that poorly constructed ankles had nothing to do with it. That was ugly. This wasn’t exactly Chris Miller’s last concussion type stuff.

Is it possible that you can’t view his ankle injuries as a trend— that each injury is, in its self, separate?

"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-- Oscar Wilde

by PredominantlyOrange on Feb 22, 2010 2:09 PM MST up reply actions  

It is absolutley possible that you can't view them as a trend...

He may never have an ankle problem again. That is why I call them questionable.

As for the “agility” problem. Some of it is that he is slow. A lot of it is that he doesn’t appear to have that Pocket Presence that a lot of QB’s have. You don’t have to run a 4.3-40…but a good QB needs to have a good feeling for the pocket and for when he should take that 1 step that would get him out of the way of the oncoming rushers. I have not seen Orton do that. He takes an awful lot of hits straight on.

by miner00 on Feb 22, 2010 3:16 PM MST up reply actions  

dunno if it's been mentioned...don't really have time to read the comments today...

But didn’t McD claim that Harris’s second toe injury (dislocation, I believe) was not a reaggravation of the previous injury but a freak second injury to the same toe? Dunno if they changed their tune but I’m near-positive that that was the story at the time of the injury.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Feb 21, 2010 1:49 PM MST reply actions  

It was a second injury

It may even heal faster than the first. Expect Harris to try and make training camp, perhaps even some of the OTAs, but expect him to struggle with that injury from time to time. This could also take longer – such injuries aren’t simple or entirely predictable.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 21, 2010 2:38 PM MST reply actions  

the second was the dislocation, no?

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Feb 22, 2010 7:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Yes, that's right

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 22, 2010 11:33 PM MST up reply actions  

hah!

that’s a rarity these days…

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Feb 25, 2010 12:07 PM MST up reply actions  

great post KB.

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Feb 22, 2010 6:58 AM MST reply actions  

I'm glad you enjoyed it.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 10:13 AM MST up reply actions  

Excellent Post KB, Rec'd

I don’t expect to see the team get a week off during the bye week ever again under McD’s tenure. I think that led in part to the overconfidence entering the Balt game. Baltimore was hungry and they worked their tails off during their bye week. Meanwhile McD gave us a week off and the extra week of preparation by the Ravens really showed during the game. I expect to see a focused and hard working team all throughout the bye week this year.

Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein

Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein

by c_style on Feb 22, 2010 10:36 AM MST reply actions   2 recs

+1 to you, too.

Well said.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 10:41 AM MST up reply actions  

Nice post KB!

I definitely don’t agree with all of it, but it was well thought out and presented.

My main problem with your analysis is that I really didn’t see much improvement. KO played very well in those first 6 games. His QB rating was high, he was protecting the football, he was spreading the ball around to 8-9 receivers a game. He had a QB rating in those 6 games over 100. It was textbook QB play. What happened in weeks 6-10? Not much different. He was still throwing effectively, limiting the INT’s (Pittsburgh excepted, that is one hell of a Defensive secondary, so I don’t hold that against him) He was still playing as well as he has ever played.

If you remember back though, there were LOTS of people clammoring to get a look at Simms before the Washington game because…Nothing was happening with the offense. Orton was playing well, racking up some nice stats and it led to 4 losses in a row. All of the sudden the curtains had been pulled back from around the offense because the Defense wasn’t winning them games anymore.

I remember Washington week, all I heard was people asking McD if he was going to open up the offense and throw deep. Then in the first half of the Washington game, he did…twice. Orton was able to heave it down field to a WIDE OPEN Brandon Marshall…twice. Then the 2nd qtr came around and our Offense did nothing. One nice 80 yard drive killed by crappy running and incomplete passes in the red zone led to a FG. Or Defense decided to give it up as well and got smoked by a 35 yard pass from the punter.

There are those who point to the Washington game and say that if KO hadn’t been injured we would have kept scoring points and everything would have been different. The actual play-by-play that day doesn’t really agree. We still couldn’t run the ball and we still couldn’t do anything in the Red Zone and aside from those 2 long TD passes where the Defender left our #1 receiver open by 20 yards, our Offense didn’t really do anything.

Now, all that being said… I like Kyle Orton. I think he is EXACTLY what McDaniels wants in a QB and I hope like hell that Josh can put a supporting cast around him that will win us football games. What Kyle needs to win games is 1 of 2 things. A defense that can consistently hold the opponent under 20 points. If we have that, then everything is Hunky Dory. Alternatively, if we had a running game like we did in 98-99 that could be responsible for 7additional points a game, we would be pretty set as well.

The running game is going to be the easiest/fastest path to winning. The defense already jumped from #29 to #7 last year, and a 20-or-less defense is a very rare thing in the NFL. If we are smart and get good solid OL either in FA or the draft…and Knowshon makes some really big improvements over the offseason, I think the Broncos are a playoff contender. SuperBowl contender??? That is where things get trickier. The difference Playoff teams and SuperBowl teams…is generally the QB.

Either way, I don’t believe you will see a significant difference in the QB play from 2009. He was good, he will continue to be good. Any improvement that we see next year will not be a result of KO playing better or worse. Improvement will be seen in the Running game and/or the Defense.

Just my opinion…

by miner00 on Feb 22, 2010 1:21 PM MST reply actions   3 recs

This is a great comment.

I’m really glad you brought this up. Kyle Orton, coming off of the Pitt and Baltimore losses, was the posterchild of malcontent amongst Broncos fans. The bottom line is you don’t win six games in a row and then lose two straight. That caused guys like Woody Paige to get out the torches and pitchforks and come knocking on Orton’s door. Yes, Orton could be more explosive in the system and complete more passes. However, how do we know that he had completely learned it by that point, anyways? The first quarter of the washington game left me hopeful of what the offense could look like, given more practice and time.

Like you said, Pitt and Baltimore both have very talented secondaries, so to expect a hall of fame type performance from him would have been unrealistic.

Looking back at the Washington game, the Broncos had three possessions at the end of the first half and came away with 3 points. That is a valid statement. The first one stalled because of a Tony Scheffler penalty that put us in second and 21, negating a pass to Royal for a first down. Orton then missed by a few inches on a deep ball to royal and then couldn’t convert on third and 21. The next drive was a three and out, where they missed a deep pass to Marshall and then ran it twice for a total of zero yards. The final drive was where we drove inside the Skins’ ten yard line and Orton was injured. The third drive was their best opportunity to score, but what sticks out to me is the penalties.

The Scheffler penalty was a killer. Also, on the third drive, instead of starting at the 21, it was called back for a Jarvis Moss Illegal block. I agree that a few completions here and there would have significantly helped the overall outcome of those drives, but pinpointing it all on Orton is unfair. It’s a team game. A big running hole set up by the offensive line could have kept those drives going, as well.

I agree with you. I am not looking for a significant difference, though. I’m not looking for Orton to put up 40 TDs or something like that. What I’d love to see is points. I want consistent drives with a steady diet of run and pass that keeps the defense off balance. I think that, given more time in this system and studying over the offseason, Orton will be able to give that to us. Whether or not he makes pro bowls or looks great throwing all kinds of yards, I just wanna win a MF game.

As far as “the difference between playoff teams and super bowl teams is generally the QB” is concerned, I’m not so sure. There are a number of ways to get to the super bowl and having the best QB doesn’t always equal a super bowl win. Peyton Manning is considered one of the best, if not THE best, current QBs but he is 9-9 in the playoffs.

Elway, who IS THE GREATEST, had a losing record in the super bowl. It hurts to say that……

Anyways, I really appreciate this comment. Great stuff miner. I love your comments. It’s always good to hear from you.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 1:50 PM MST up reply actions  

Great post miner00

Rec’d

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Feb 22, 2010 4:34 PM MST up reply actions  

+1

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Feb 23, 2010 3:28 PM MST up reply actions  

Its nice to actually have substantive discussions isn't it?

KB

I think that we agree for the most part. KO was having a good game against Wash, he had a QB rating of 134. I certainly don’t blame him for anything, but at the same time, he didn’t get it done. That isn’t a knock on him, that is what this offense was designed for this year. I am not blaming Orton for any of the 8 losses this year…except for maybe KC. He played well. He always plays well. He will continue to play … well. I just don’t expect him to ever play better than…well.

As I said, games can be won with more offensive line/running game production and tighter defense too. The QB is the leader though. It may not be fair, but he is the guy that touches the ball on every play and generally the QB will step up and put the team on his back for a game or two over the course of 16 games. That just didn’t happen this year. (No I don’t count New England because there were two 3-outs between the 98 yard drive and the overtime.)

by miner00 on Feb 22, 2010 2:10 PM MST reply actions  

haha, ABSOLUTELY IT IS!!!!

I agree. I think that we are on almost the same page, as well.

The one difference being our value and expectations of the quarterback position. I think that you can have a great team and an average QB and still win a bunch of games. You think that the QB is the most important piece. That’s definitely valid. I agree. The QB is the guy who touches the ball on every snap like you said(except Miami), but his job shouldn’t be to go out and put the team on his back. He does need to be able to do that, from time to time, but he shouldn’t be the “end all, be all” of the offense. The team, since football is a team game, has to be able to collectively put up points and prevent the other team from scoring.

When we had Cutler, we went as Jay went. It looked good, but it didn’t give us the results that we wanted (playoffs). Yeah, it’s nice to have an Elway or Manning or Montana, but those guys don’t grow on trees. Most QBs in the NFL can’t take a team on their back and go win the game out of pure will. The bottom line is that most quarterbacks are humans (I said most because I still have doubts about Peyton Manning). They make mistakes (Cutler) and they don’t always have a great day behind center. If that happens in a big game (as we saw with Brett Favre), it can cost your team severely.

On the other hand, it is often difficult to build a team with enough solid pieces in place to be in a position where the QB is not the center piece. I’ll take this year’s super bowl as an example. Yes, Drew Brees is a really good quarterback, but overall, he had a stronger team around him than Peyton did. I’d also argue that Peyton is a better QB than Drew. Regardless, in big games, it seems like the colts rely on Manning to do the work for them, but he can only do so much. I think that a great overall team beats a great quarterback with an average team, however, it is much easier to fix one position than it is to fix 52.

So, on to the Broncos. I think that, realistically, what the Broncos need is a better running game and a better run defense. That should take us to the next level. QB should be the stable position that you can count on to make plays when they are there and don’t make mistakes. Kyle Orton is that guy (he just needs to play within himself and not make as many mistakes). I don’t expect Kyle Orton to be the next 4th quarter comeback record holder, but I don’t want the Broncos to be behind in the first place.

Going forward, I think that Kyle Orton will do more to progress the offense than to hinder it. It’s realistic to believe that Orton will be better than last year. Even a small gain, IMO, will get us a few more wins. Football is about those 2 or 3 plays that you make (or don’t make) that ultimately decide the outcome of the game. Next year, if we can just make those two or three plays, we are looking at a playoff team.

And we gotta stop having so many of those absolutely ignorant penalties. Those frustrate the life out of me.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 2:45 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Regarding Washington

Since Orton was injured and didn’t finish the game, judging him for not winning seems kind of misplaced.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 22, 2010 5:06 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree...That is why I said He was having a good game against Washington.

My “He didn’t get it done” was a more general statement for the entire year. Sorry for the confusion.

by miner00 on Feb 23, 2010 9:17 AM MST up reply actions  

No worries - thanks for being more clear

There’s no question that all of the offense could have done better, Orton included.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 23, 2010 11:17 AM MST up reply actions  

Yup...pretty much same page.

My main argument isn’t that you have to have a great QB to be a great team and get to the playoffs. My argument is that it is REALLY difficult to build a Superbowl winning team without a great QB. It is possible to win with great defense with a mediocre QB (‘85 bears, ’01 ravens, ’03 Bucs). That is not to say that Orton is Dilfer or Johnson or McMahon, but when you look at QB’s who win Superbowls, you see a lot of Mannings, and Elways and Montanas and Bradshaws. You don’t see that many game managers (Rypien, Dilfer, Johnson, etc)

It is usually easier to take that last step from Playoff Team to SuperBowl team with the addition of an elite QB.

Thats all I’m saying.

And Peyton Manning is in line to be considered among the best QB’s of all time. Brees has a LONG way to go before we can reasonably say that he is better then Manning. He is an elite QB, but head to head Manning is better. Yes, teams make the difference.

by miner00 on Feb 22, 2010 3:38 PM MST reply actions   2 recs

I agree with that. No argument here. Well said. +1

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Feb 22, 2010 4:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Great comment miner and rec'd.....that is put succinctly and without a bias...good job!

Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.

by boydy2669 on Feb 22, 2010 5:38 PM MST up reply actions  

McMahon?

The punky QB would have won a few more if he had been able to avoid injuries. It really is an insult to group him in with Dilfer and Johnson. The Bears didn’t lose when Jim was healthy. He was a great leader and could make any throw on the field. the Bears didn’t win several SBs due to McMahon’s injuries.

by rocko1 on Feb 22, 2010 7:34 PM MST up reply actions  

I agree with you rocko

If he would have spent some of that cockiness(he had more than he needed) on his health, he probably could have won one or two more rings.

Very nice post kb. Rec’d.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Feb 22, 2010 10:35 PM MST up reply actions  

OK...I will defer to your judgement on McMahon.

I was 7 when McMahon won his superbowl and what I remember from highlights and video of the ‘85 bears was that he was more act than substance. That team had a world class defense and one of the best RB’s ever to play.

If I am wrong, I will stand corrected.

by miner00 on Feb 23, 2010 9:20 AM MST up reply actions  

Trust rocko1 on this one, miner00

I am very much old enough to remember the little twerp that could play like hell.

by idahobronc on Feb 23, 2010 10:29 AM MST up reply actions  

McMahon was a

James Dean behind center for the Bears…a true rebel without a cause in the NFL at the time. As the Bears starter, he won 22 straight games between 84 and 87. In 84, 86, 87, and 88 he missed over half the games due to injuries. The Bears traded him in 89. We’ve had 89 different starting QBs since!

by rocko1 on Feb 23, 2010 3:09 PM MST up reply actions  

the curse of 89?

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 23, 2010 3:20 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

more like the curse of

charles martin. that’s the packer who spiked mcmahon in 86 (knocking him out of the season i believe) and wrecking the one chance of a possible bears dynasty in, well ever.

punky qb was a true leader on the field and like rocko said it is incorrect to lump #9 in with scrubs like dilfer and johnson.

by reefermadness3 on Feb 26, 2010 12:12 AM MST up reply actions  

Jim McMahon is one of the biggest winners there was.

Mike Ditka said that without Jim McMahon there was no superbowl victory guaranteed. He’s quite simply one of the most winning QBs I’ve had the privelege of seeing. Mac was widely regarded as the greatest play action passer of his generation. Steve Young said he learned to play the game by watching Jim at BYU. I’ve personally seen him comeback from 3 to 4 TDs down in a game in at least 4 games. He never knew when he was beat. He was wicked at reading defenses and calling clever audibles. He saw blitzes before they happened and constantly surprised his linemen. Never saw a tougher QB. Never. He laid his body on the line every single play and wouldn’t play it safe like a Manning. Never saw Jim slide, always went for the inches or the TD. If I had to pick a QB for a super bowl, I’d go with Joe Montana … but Jim would be right there on the bench, chewing gum, squinting his eyes, waiting for his chance. One of the greats. Sad the way most won’t know him – what Charles Martin of GB did to him is the most disgusting thing I have seen in football, and he was never the same again

Now Kyle Orton ? Ankle problems will be in your future. He can read defenses. He’s smart. But I guess you know he has no arm by now. He can’t get the ball there if it needs to be there yesterday. He’ll manage your games for you ….

…. but he ain’t no Jimmy Mac. Few were …

by Irish Bears Fan on Feb 26, 2010 3:04 AM MST up reply actions  

thanks for perpetuating the noodle armed myth

helped us get him AND two number ones…

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Mar 1, 2010 11:14 AM MST up reply actions  

If you think Orton has no arm,

you know absolutely nothing of Orton. I mean nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch.

I don’t care if you are a Bears fan, as your user name claims. I question whether you have ever seen a Bears game, at least with Orton in it. And I know you never watched any Broncos games this year . . . or maybe you slept through them.

Indeed, I was impressed with his arm strength on several occasions this past year. Nonetheless, thank you for taking our former QB off our hands and giving us an upgrade in that position.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Mar 2, 2010 9:40 AM MST up reply actions  

I was much older ;-)

His cockiness turned off even many of the Bear fans, but his ability to rally the team and to produce at the moments when it mattered was remarkable, especially that year.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 23, 2010 11:19 AM MST reply actions  

I was so much older then....

I’m younger than that, now.

That’s what your first line made me think of, ’s good to be reminded of the classics (even if inadvertently). ( ;

First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =

by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Feb 26, 2010 7:30 AM MST up reply actions  

I like the song reference - yes, great one

Of course, Orton isn’t a McMahon. Or Brady, or Manning or Brees…but that’s really not of any concern one way or the other. He’s a QB with more potential than he’s had the chance to develop who has between 1 and 2 years to show that his potential as a pocket passer can be developed to play at the level that the Broncos need for this specific offense. He will or he won’t – we’ll find out either way. Given the improvement from 2008 to 2009, he’s earned that chance. After all – no QB is ‘X’ QB. Each is just themselves and they all have weaknesses. Even Manning throws an INT to lose the big one sometimes. They are all human – the only question is whether or not they can do the job in the system they are in.

There are quite a few QBs in the history of the game who were run out of one town with serious questions about whether or not they could even play at the NFL level yet who turned out to be high-impact QBs. Since no one can know if Orton is one or not – it will be an interesting season.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 26, 2010 12:54 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Wow, I somehow almost missed a great post

Great discussion and observatioins.I think the big reason I’m expecting vast improvement this season is because, as you’ve pointed out, we can really look and see very specific areas that fell apart and need improved on. The overall general idea is that we need to better run the ball, stop the run, and be better in the second-half of the season. But unlike like last year, we can look and say, OK, we need to get bigger in the middle of the offensive line, we need to bring in an impact player in the middle of the defensive line, and we need to be better in coverage on the second-level. I’m not sure that our needs were so apparent last year.

Being in the scheme, both offensively and defensively, for the 2nd year in a row will automatically help some of the mistakes and lend additional comfort. The easiest way to get guys to not collapse in the 2nd half of the season is to force feed them the look on their faces when it happened last year – that and better prioritizing their conditioning.

We can’t plan for injuries, but we can absolutely make sure that we’re not dying for lack of depth at RT and nickle corner like last year. Anyway, like I said, I just think the areas of need are far more transparent. That plus 2nd year comfort should help us to improve.

Btw, I agree with your take that Washington was “the game”. Kyle doesn’t go out against the Redskins and we win that game and likely more. As for KC, I’ll just forgive him for having a bad game. Everybody is goint to have one here and there. My biggest worry about Orton isn’t that he can’t take us to the promissed land, but rather if he can keep those ankles healthy enough to do that.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Mar 1, 2010 10:48 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

I don't believe you can analyze Orton without

analyzing the entire offense. The running game progressively struggling, the deterioration of the Oline, and Orton’s dip all coincided in the second half. Put those together with Orton’s high ankle sprain, and you have a recipe for disaster.

It is to Orton’s credit that it was not disastrous, but that he held it together through that stretch.

And contrary to apparently popular belief, I thought Orton’s performance in the KC game was a rather good one. I don’t really believe we can take his three INTs entirely against him. While one was a horrendously bad throw, another was playing catchup during garbage time, and the third was a fabulous play be a KC defender. But Orton showed arm strength and mobility in that game that many were claiming he didn’t have. Really, I was impressed in that game, all in all.

I will step out on a limb and say that I expect that Orton will be hovering round that top five category among QBs in the AFC in 2010. You heard it here first . . .

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Mar 2, 2010 9:35 AM MST reply actions  

I definitely agree. All parts of the offense are tied together.

If one unit struggles, it makes the job of the next unit that much harder to execute. There were a lot of variables that went into it and you touched on most of them.

I’m reluctant to say Orton will hover around the top five, at the moment. I really look forward to seeing what we do in the offseason before I will come out on that limb with you. If we can pick up some good offensive line talent and a weapon or two to help out on offense, then I’ll be out there with you. I just haven’t seen it yet. There’s a lot of offseason left for predictions, but you’ll certainly earn a mile high salute from me if you’re right.

After all, fortune favors the bold, right? lol

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Mar 2, 2010 9:44 AM MST up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

MileHighReport(MHR) is the ultimate independent resource for the Denver Broncos on the web. Along with MHR Radio, the official podcast of MHR, we look to provide hardcore Denver Broncos fans positive, independent insight about the Broncos, 24/7/365!

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Ph_small
2011: MHR I Need Your Help With An Upcoming Post
Zozobra_small
Explaining What "IT" Is that Tebow Has: An Analysis of the Art of Miracles
Pumpkin_small
The risk/reward analysis on drafting RBs earlier vs later
Images-2_small
Calling out IAOFM
Fabio_elway_grade_small
What the Broncos have already made this offseason

Recent FanPosts

Small
CHEAP SKATES
Haleycriesalot_small
Pre-Free Agency Thoughts
Denver-broncos-wallpaper_1__small
The Solution
Pumpkin_small
MLBs - what we have and what Fox and Del Rio historically want
Small
It's the most wonderful time of the year!
Small
Mock Offseason 2.0
Images_small
outsider look on some potential Denver FA targets
La_la_land_small
1st Round Mock-Don't Read It If You Don't Like Mocks
Small
Needs based FA and Draft by position

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Getting Social With MHR

Facebook_badge_medium_medium
Black_generated_button

Milehighreport_email_medium

Web Stuff


 

Listed on BlogShares Top NFL Fan Sites


General Manager/Head Coach

Milehighreport_small John Bena

2011_small KaptainKirk

Asst. Head Coach

Dadndaughter_small Tim Lynch

2_small Sayre Bedinger

Bronco-pride_small Brian Shrout

Broncohoodie_in_africa_small Troy Hufford

Position Coach

182px-jesus_small Jezru

Flag_canada_small Colby

Img_0007_small Topher Doll

Small zsheely

Hottie_small Sarah_Marshall

Quality Control

800px-john_brown_painting_small mdierk