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Around SBN: The Gift Of The 2003 Tigers

MHR Draft Resources -- Know Your NFL Combine

Welcome to another installment of MHR Draft Resources!  This one is a look at the NFL Combine, which is right around the corner, starting February 24th and continuing until March 2nd. We have many fans who frequent this site, and not all of them may understand just what the Combine is, or where it fits in the grand scheme of the NFL universe. Fear not! Mile High Report is here for you!

National Invitational Camp

The National Invitational Camp, commonly called 'the Combine' is a giant 6-day, track-meet-like event, held every year in the hospitable confines of the RCA Dome (now Lucas Oil Stadium) in Indianapolis. 32 NFL teams send upwards of 20 individuals each, all involved in different capacities with the team such as scouts, coaches and managers, who are there to meet and evaluate almost 350 top seniors and underclassmen. These players are run through a gauntlet of mental and physical tests, and the effect is to clearly delineate the yearly draft class and to provide warrant for their placement on the 'big boards' around the league. Though around 80% of combine invites are eventually drafted, Denver is one of the leading teams at signing college free agents who had excellent combine results. Andre Hall is one such example, signed in 2006 (following brief stints with Tampa Bay and Chicago) after posting the 20th-best Combine performance in the last eight years, behind players like Adrian Peterson and Tatum Bell.

NFS (National Football Scouting) is the service that puts the event together and formally provides the invitations to the prospects, and it is their responsibility to provide security, regulate the uniformity of the testing methods and to organize the event. The NIC is not the only 'combine' as many more occur throughout the country, usually involving smaller geographic areas, but the NIC is by far the most prominent and features the greatest amount of NFL destined talent.

Star-divide

Don't be shy...

Any bashful players need to check their blush at the door. The measurement process is like a scene out of Anthem or 1984. As the prospects are poked and prodded seven ways to Sunday with only a meager pair of shorts for modesty, the exaggerations of the game day rosters come to light. Of all these measurements, the 'triad' or 'triangle' measurements are considered the basics: Height, weight and 40-yd dash time. But their feet and hands are measured as well as the length of their legs and arms. From fingertips to the base of the palm, scouts are looking for hand measurements in excess of 9" and taking note of any arm measurements shorter than 32". These are not necessary exclusionary measurements, but they do red-flag the prospect. Scouts would go from that 'red-flag' to an evaluation of how that particular player overcomes that particular variety of handicap. Our own Elvis Dumervil barely registered 32" (32 3/4") arms but when combined with his wide chest, his wingspan was significantly longer than expected, and though he did drop in the draft because of size issues, Denver had no problem selecting him for his drive and consistency in overcoming a "measurement" obstacle throughout the years.

The Trials: What to aim for

The following table is compiled by averaging the times and reps of the top 100 prospects from the past 9 combines (the most reliable data can be had for this time frame), and weighting the results toward the top performances all time. While not exact, this table is a pretty fair representation of what sort of benchmark the top prospects will be held to in order to maintain or gain position in the draft.  The 40yd dash numbers have dropped almost across the board for all positions, which is likely result of the switch to electronic timing recently.

Note that DT, QB, and OL are not required to run the 60-yd shuttle, nor are QBs and WRs expected to lift, though they are free to do so.

MHR Combine Trial Targets
Trial QB WR RB TE FB OL Quality Evaluated
40 yd dash 4.90 4.55 4.60 4.85 4.85 5.3 Speed over distance
10yd split-40 1.70 1.7 1.6 1.7 1.7 1.8 Initial Burst
20 yd split-40 2.85 2.70 2.65 2.80 2.80 3.05 Burst stamina
225lb bench press N/A N/A 22 22 22 25 Upper body strength
Vertical Jump 30 36 32 32 30 28 Leg strength; explosiveness
Broad Jump 9'0" 10'0" 9'6" 9'6" 9'3" 8'4" Leg strength; explosiveness
20yd shuttle 4.30 4.20 4.25 4.30 4.30 4.70 Burst, flexibility, balance
60yd shuttle N/A 11.5 11.6 11.8 11.8 N/A Endurance, flexibility, balance
3-cone drill 7.25 7.10 7.20 7.30 7.35 7.85 Agility, hips, change of direction
Trial DT DE ILB OLB CB S Quality Evaluated
40 yd dash 5.15 4.85 4.80 4.75 4.50 4.60 Speed over distance
10yd split-40 1.80 1.70 1.70 1.65 1.60 1.65 Initial Burst
20 yd split-40 2.95 2.80 2.80 2.75 2.65 2.70 Burst stamina
225lb bench press 27 24 24 23 14 17 Upper body strength
Vertical Jump 30 33 33 36 36 36 Leg strength; explosiveness
Broad Jump 8'6" 9'6" 9'6" 9'9" 10'0" 10'0" Leg strength; explosiveness
20yd shuttle 4.60 4.35 4.30 4.20 4.10 4.15 Burst, flexibility, balance
60yd shuttle N/A 11.8 11.8 11.6 11.3 11.4 Endurance, flexibility, balance
3-cone drill 7.75 7.40 7.30 7.20 7.00 7.10 Agility, hips, change of direction

What Are the Trials All About?

The names of the tests really do speak for themselves. The 40-yard dash is "The Trial" of the Combine, though many scouts and front offices claim that it does not weigh heavily in their final evaluation. Bull. When a player runs a forty, EVERYONE stops what they are doing and watches. As our own HoosierTeacher has noted repeatedly in these pages, "You can't coach speed." And speed translates DIRECTLY to more money and more opportunities to play in the NFL. So yeah, they're watching. So much so in fact, they usually have TWO sets of eyes on the player, one set watching for the first 10 yards (10yd split) and another set of eyes watching the first twenty yards. Beyond this it isn't odd to have another set of eyes watching from the finish line who is responsible for seeing the run in its entirety. Ideally the players want to minimize drag by getting low early (translates well to football, with blockers needing to win the battle of "low man wins."). As well they are looking to have a great burst off of the line, and get into their "form" as early as possible. I was a sprinter in high school, and it seems to me that many players would benefit greatly from getting to "form" running sooner than they do, but the NFL seems to place a priority on keeping low. In my opinion, many players stay low for far too long. No one asked me though. :)  It should be noted that the combine features electronic testing as of 2007, and official stopwatch timer, but that there is no "official" time kept.  Scouts are responsible for whichever timekeeper they want to go with, whether electronic, combine official or other.  Usually they insist on keeping the time themselves, and as noted above, they often get multiple timers and compare.

The bench press is looked at for Linemen most specifically, but most players require good upper body strength to excel in the NFL, from WRs getting separation to LBs fighting off blocks. The jumps measure lower body strength in a player, and while knowing the potential of a defensive back or WR to be a high-jumping ball hawk, it is more important to get a feel for the player's burst, or explosiveness, whether for delivering the possession-ending hit or getting off the line and into a block in a dominant fashion.  For the vertical leap, note that the measurement taken is the topmost height of the jump minus the measure of their reach, in order to gauge their actual vertical leap.

The shuttle runs are becoming more and more valuable to teams around the league as a premium is placed on athleticism from their linemen on both sides of the ball. In a shuttle the player starts at a yard line, runs 5 yards in one direction, then 10 yards in the other direction, then 5 yards back to their starting position. They are required to touch the ground at each stop except the last. In the 60-yd shuttle, the player runs 5 yards, 10 yards and then 15 yards, touching the ground at every stop except the last. Personally, I think they could upgrade this trial to end with an odd-shaped tackling dummy and give the players an opportunity to tackle the dummy any way they choose. It would look cool, but would probably be considered an injury risk. (Lame!) In its current incarnation the test is expected to measure agility, change of direction and lateral burst speed. My version of course, would add "Finishing it All Off" to that list, but once again, no one is asking me.

The three-cone drill starts with a unique formation. The cones are arranged in the shape of a "lambda": basically an upside down 'V.' They are placed five yards apart, and players must first run back and forth between the first two cones, usually done laterally in a shuffle-step style of movement to accommodate the quick change of direction required to weave around the second cone, weave inside the third cone and around the outside of the two other cones on the way back to the starting line. Sound complicated? It is, and it is a sight to behold when it is executed fluidly.

Beyond these trials, each player may be run through position specific drills such as cutting drills for receivers and throwing drills for QBs.  The combine is also a key place for scouts to collect interviews, a vital part of the information-gathering process on each prospect.   There is also the Cybex test, a machine that you strap into that measures strength of limbs and ligaments, and is used to evaluate how well a prospect has recovered from certain injuries.  I was tested on a Cybex for a previous job I had, and it is pretty cool, but I think that the numbers will be loaded at the combine.  Basically, any player that might take a stock hit for using the machine just will opt out.  Hopefully some players take advantage of the test to help abate some injury concerns about them, but who knows...

And who could forget the Wonderlic, of Ryan Clady stock watch fame.  The Wonderlic taken at the Combine takes 12 minutes and contains 50 questions. The test is also designed so most prospects do not finish in time.  Want to see how you measure up?  Give it a try!

Not the Most Important Thing in the World;  Even Though NFLN Will Make You Think So

A great combine doesn't directly correlate to the greatness of the player. Some players with significant ability are never invited. Some great players perform poorly but go on to have great careers. Denver has created their own near-omniscient legacy of finding RBs at every level of the draft.

Many times, it is a single quality such as a vertical jump or shuttle time that will separate players locked at a position in the later rounds. At the heart of the combine is the fluid nature of the NFL draft: for one player to move up, another must move down. Sometimes the only difference to be found is the athleticism shown at the combine.

However, there are some useful numbers and indicators, which scouts have been using for some time, that come out of the combine,  specifically when taken in tandem...

Powerful Players

This formula is pretty simple:  combine the number of bench-press reps, the vertical jump, and the broad jump of a player together.  If the total is 70+ you may have someone special on your hands.  For example, Chris Williams was ranked as the #3 OTin 2007 behind Clady and Long.  By this measurement however, Williams' score of 54 lags significantly behind Long at 74 and Clady at 77.  One way of honing this measurement down a bit is to disregard any player with only one significantly-high score.

Quick or Fast? 

By comparing a player's 40-yd dash and 20-yd shuttle, an opinion can begin to be formed about their speed relative to their quickness.  The opinion would be honing in on the abstraction of "explosiveness."  Basically, take the 40-yd time for a player and subtract 0.5 seconds from it (half a second).  This number should be equal to their 20-yd shuttle time.  If it is higher, it is an indicator that the player has more quickness, if it is lower, chances are you are dealing with straight line speed.

Some Tests Matter More Than Others 

As each group begins getting its tests completed, I will take a look at the outstanding performers in each positional grouping, and see if their scores in specific tests for their grouping warrant viewing them as particularly gifted at their position.   These posts can be expected in conjunction with the following scheduled groupings:

  1. Saturday, Feb.27th:  Group 1 (OL, SPECIALISTS), Group 2 (OL), Group 3 (TE)
  2. Sunday Feb 28th:  Group 4 (QB, WR), Group 5 (QB, WR), Group 6 (RB)
  3. Monday Mar.1st:  Group 7 (DL), Group 8 (DL), Gorup 9 (LB)
  4. Tuesday Mar. 2nd:  Group 10 (DB), Group 11 (DB

Go here to find the current listing of players who have accepted invites to the Combine.  Note that several listed players have injury concerns and will be expected to have limited participation.  Of particular note are QBs Jimmy Clause and Sam Bradford, both of whom will be in attendance, and who will take tests and do interviews, but who are not expected to run any drills or workout.  QB Colt McCoy is also planning on attending, and intends to run through the drills if he is ready.

Click here to take the ACTUAL reflex test used to train the modern day NFL-ready athlete!

 

 

 

 

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Great stuff.

I put up a combine piece over at TST, but this was much more useful in terms of quantifying results. Great work.

You don't seem to want to accept the fact you're dealing with an expert in guerrilla warfare, with a man who's the best, with guns, with knives, with his bare hands. A man who's been trained to ignore pain, ignore weather, to live off the land, to eat things that would make a billy goat puke. In *St. Louis* his job was to dispose of enemy personnel. To kill! Period! Win by attrition. Well, *Steven Jackson* was the best.

by 3k on Feb 21, 2010 2:29 PM MST reply actions  

great minds think alike!

Thanks for linking up your post, as it (and the one before it) are both great additions. Tune back in from friday on as I will be picking some of the performers out of the groups to highlight.

Always good to see you around 3k!

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 21, 2010 4:31 PM MST up reply actions  

Great post Jeremy!

except Clady was drafted two years ago. ;-)

I missed two on that wretched wonderlic example…

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Feb 21, 2010 2:29 PM MST reply actions  

fixed

did you take the reflex test by chance? ;)

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 21, 2010 4:32 PM MST up reply actions  

Excellent breakdown, Jeremy. Thank you.

I always enjoy the combine. Not so much that I put all my trust in it’s results, but that it’s the first significant football-related event in what feels like forever, at a time when I haven’t gotten over fooball withdrawal, yet.

There is a camp that gives the combine little value, and profess that “game speed and instincts” tell much more about a player than simple metrics. Then there’s the clan that put’s most of their faith in measurables.

While game film rules the day in assessing a player’s on-field potential, the combine cannot be ignored. In some cases, it’s the only thing that gets a player noticed. It can also give you a better idea of a player’s athleticism in situations where there isn’t enough info readily available, which might be the case for prospects from some of the smaller schools.

While the combine might not be about players showing their strength by pulling farm equipment (though, summer camp conditioning for offensive linemen doesn’t feel too far removed from the idea), the truth is there is little difference between it and the stock show. The only thing missing is giving parents and coaches 4H awards for the quality of their stock.

"People who live in glass houses...shouldn't."

by jayrockstone on Feb 21, 2010 2:43 PM MST reply actions  

that's a level and fair take on the circumstances

as Doc points out below, we are learning things in some cases that really have no direct bearing, because they have been tweaked out of context.

I’m in the camp that you have to know about the players before the Combine, and then round out your grade with observations on general athleticism. The interviews of course are important, but teams can schedule a number of private visits and workouts to accomplish that as well.

Your 4H analogy is right on. There is something to the percentages of players who are simply more athletically gifted then their peers being able to be impact players earlier in their careers, at any position (except QB. Good luck getting a good read there outside of interviews and game film), and I think the Combine can be a great way to distill the majority of those kind of impact players out of the draft. If the research is already in regarding each prospects gamefilm, a lot of the combine results should be galvanizing. If the research is not in or is incomplete, all manner of draftboard oddity might occur.

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 21, 2010 5:30 PM MST up reply actions  

Great stuff, Jeremy

A couple of points just for fun, mostly.

As late as the early 1960’s, some teams chose players by consulting Street and Smith’s College Football issues. Paul Brown was the first to hire a full time scout and to try to ‘modernize’ his drafting approaches (late 1940’s and 1950’s). It worked – Cleveland was a perennial champion or competitor during those days.

The first computer used to analyze data and improve drafting was a combined venture between Dallas (this was Tex Schramm’s idea), was suggested in early 1961. Since it was believed that no one would ever need their own computer anyway and they were expensive, three teams chipped in: Dallas, LA (Rams) and SF 49ers. It took 4 years to develop the computer program, and it measure 5 areas – character, quickness, competitiveness, strength and mental alertness. The group called themselves Troika

The first combine was only among three teams – Dallas, Los Angeles Rams and Buffalo, a group that grew out of Troika in 1971. Only 50 players showed up.

BLESTO is still a scouting service. It was founded in 1963 by three teams Lions, Eagles and Steelers (and called ‘LESTO’) and the name was an anagram of sorts – Lions, Eagles and Steelers Talent Organization. The name was changed to BLESTO when the Bears came on board. As of 2006, all but 4 teams were still using either BLESTO or National Scouting Services (National). BLESTO uses a 1.0-5.0 scale with 1.0 being the highest. National uses a 1-8 scale with 8 being the highest.

Boston University has had a larger effect on the draft than Boston College. The Boston University coach (before they dropped the football program) was Mike Boyle. He developed a system of legally ‘cheating’ on the Combine in the later 1980’s. His tips included using the lats to hold down the shoulders when stretching up to establish the baseline for the leaping drill, which added 4 inches to your results. He also developed techniques that are still used, such as completing the cone drill with 3 steps on each 5 yard segment and 6 on the 10 yard. He developed a technique on the 40 dash of teaching guys to cover the first 10 yards in 7 steps instead of the usual 9 or 10. When attacked for this he’d laugh and remind folks that he didn’t make up the rules. They have since been changed, when applicable, but the techniques for running drills have still been incorporated into the modern training facilities

The average cost of a 4 week Precombine training session is between 20 and 30K and it is picked up by the agent. There is fierce competition for some of the training locales, such as Athletes Performance, also know as API (Athletes Performance Institute, even though the last word has been dropped.

By the way:

the NFL seems to place a priority on keeping low. In my opinion, many players stay low for far too long

There’s a reason. Because the players start from a stand instead of off of blocks, they had to develop a different technique. Keeping low, almost to the point of falling forward, induces the neurology of overspeed to kick in, something I covered in the ’World’s Longest Comment’ earlier this week. Over the course of the run, the time is lower.

Great article, Jeremy. Nice work, as always.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 21, 2010 3:08 PM MST reply actions   2 recs

Thank you for the history, doc.

"People who live in glass houses...shouldn't."

by jayrockstone on Feb 21, 2010 3:11 PM MST up reply actions  

good stuff Em

I like the note on the running technique as well. I never even thought about the differences in the start. I even remember being told to stay low when we practiced hand starts on the 400m. I never ran the 400m out of a hand stance though, so I guess I didn’t integrate that particular nuance.

Question on overspeed: once you have broken in your neurology (probably a better way to say that :) ) would you run faster from a straight form position (faster than you did originally, taking into account any general progress in your running from working out), or do you need to maintain the forward lean to keep the overdrive kicked in?

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 21, 2010 4:49 PM MST up reply actions  

You can straighten

Let’s look at it this way. Most of these players get 30 days to work on all combine related activities. They will be learning how to interview, how to be both bland and personable at once and how to use their abilities on and off the field to advantage as it relates to a week long job interview.

Some of the learn to handle the dash from luminaries like Michael Johnson, but in a couple of weeks, there is a serious limit to what you can do with them. Unless they have a track background, they are usually struggling to pick up this series of techniques. You’re quite right – you are fastest upright, but if you move from fast twitch fibers to slow twitch – from overspeed technique to endurance – you can lose time from that change as well. It’s not an easy thing. Carl Lewis had learned to use fast twitch fibers the whole way, and you’d see him suddenly pull away from everyone in the 200 meters when everyone else switched to endurance (slow-twitch) fibers at about the 1/2 way point. My honest concern here is that we’re testing how well folks learn certain running techniques in a short time to defeat the test, rather than finding out how fast they are. That’s a constant issue, but not an easy one to fix. People tend to find new ways around new restrictions – think about Congress for examples.

do you need to maintain the forward lean to keep the overdrive kicked in?

Some do. Others can make the distinction physically, but not many. It’s a limited ‘trick, but Chip Smith, one of the founders of using overspeed claims that he can shave .2 seconds off anyone’s time in the 40 in 30 days. Since fans have threatened each other with death over .02 second differences, you can see the problems. I think this is why they run the 40 3 times each and average them at Combine – and why the three are often wildly different. It’s more about how the technique went than about anything else, although endurance certainly comes in during the 3rd run, particularly for linemen. Lots of very tired big fellas about that point.

I recognize that the 40 has been around since Paul Brown, and that it was chosen to represent the average distance that Paul thought a player would run against a punt. It’s not a bad middle road, either. But since you can’t start from blocks and the players generally have little or no track experience, it often measures how well the player has learned one or two running techniques within a 30 day period, which wasn’t it’s purpose. You won’t see the NFL change any time soon, but there are better ways to measure what we need to know. They will, admittedly, create a ‘breech’ between those tested in 1979-? (whenever they make those changes), but it will probably happen at some point.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 21, 2010 5:19 PM MST up reply actions  

Those will be interesting times...

And I agree that it will only be a matter of time before these inconcistencies are excised. I would guess that National will have to be the driving force behind such an effort, which means that teams like Denver can be expected to be part of that push. Or maybe Blesto makes a move to have a competing Combine or something, though I don’t know how willing teams would be to switch or double their $100,000+ endorsements…

Something i have been meaning to mention, which I thought you might find interesting, and which everyone would probably find somewhat interesting, is the esteem, or lack thereof, that seems to be held up for Blesto and National by NFL teams, or at the very least the NFL scouts. Over the last year or so I have built up a friendship with an NFL scout (not Broncos, sorry all) and when I asked him about Blesto, his take was that they were a sort of necessary evil in the business. The impression is that they are composed of the most inept or inexperienced scouts in the industry, guys that didn’t make it with teams, or that were the most inexperienced scouts on the team, going straight from an internship to being the team rep for the big scouting service. He lamented that lots of times the collaborative reports were contradictory and unprofessional, and noted that scouts considered it to be sort of a badge of honor to excel quickly enough or long enough to avoid taking one of the National or Blesto team scout positions. I found this to be quite intriguing, and thought it to be worth passing along…

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 21, 2010 5:40 PM MST up reply actions  

It sure is

I’m running into more and more sources that claim that either more teams are building their scouting teams from the ground up (with the newest, Blesto-type scouts being 25 years old and making about $25,000) and moving to local, then regional scouting directors and the whole nine yards while teams with either less money or less interest are using services. They can, and most do, also have their own people.

I’m extrapolating, but it seems that smaller market teams go more to Blesto/National services and have additional scouts to check it all and add to it while the larger market teams tend to use more of their own people – a cost/benefit issue that might come up for the owners after they see who is doing the best in drafting. Let me know if your guy has heard about this, if you get the chance. thanks for the comment – you’re right, I find it interesting as heck.

Don't say rebuild - say reload...

by Doc Bear on Feb 21, 2010 6:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Wonderful job Jeremy

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Feb 21, 2010 3:32 PM MST reply actions  

Very insightfull

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Feb 21, 2010 4:52 PM MST reply actions  

This is great Jeremy

Helps me have a much better understanding of the Combine and what to expect from it.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Feb 21, 2010 6:04 PM MST reply actions  

Combine prep

I had a short business meeting with a USC player preparing for the combine. The meeting was 1/16 and he was already in full time preparation, 5 days a week 5 hours a day. The 40 yard dash time was foremost on his mind.

by LAbroncfan on Feb 21, 2010 7:09 PM MST reply actions  

Thanks for the great post Jeeremy and rec'd of course...

I’ll tape the Combines and watch them later. Commercials give me a head ache.

by bfree2bronc on Feb 21, 2010 7:14 PM MST reply actions  

Excellent Resource!

I think the target numbers in, as well as the objectives of, the drills will be incredibly useful for anyone looking to learn about or follow the draft process. Thanks for sharing!

MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!

by ejruiz on Feb 21, 2010 8:15 PM MST reply actions  

Nice Background

While I don’t always agree with MHR, I sure like the quality of the posts. This background on “the Combine” is fantastic. Thanks!

by Baltimore Bronco on Feb 22, 2010 3:59 AM MST reply actions  

Damn that question about the number of pages in the article...

I was almost a wonderlic wunderkind until I got to that one….should have used a pencil and paper LOL…

"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Feb 22, 2010 7:57 AM MST reply actions  

15.08 on the reflex test...dissappointed. :(

I do better with button prompts on the PS3 controller LOL. :)

Fun tests! I’m glad I don’t have to run the 40 however!

"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Feb 22, 2010 8:04 AM MST reply actions  

All these great speed, strengh and agility tests

tell a lot about the physical gifts of the player and are very important. But, I’d love to just watch these guys and take notes on what they do when they aren’t in a test. Do they mingle with the other players, are they a loner, how do the response to the barrage of questions they will get, and how do they react when things don’t go perfect? I want a guy who has the physical gift, but I want him to mentally strong as well. And quite frankly the Wonderlic is horrid in really judging that…

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Feb 22, 2010 8:35 AM MST reply actions  

I believe it was Landry

who first instituted the Wonderlic, and his goal was to find out how quickly a player would be able to switch schemes or assignments in the NFL. He didn’t design the test, but had it designed for that purpose, and frnkly, with as much as we have learned about human cognition and meta-cognition, it is due for an update. But as Bear pointed out elsewhere, that could be said for nearly all of the Combines tests, and the day when it all gets changed up is inevitably before us.

Scouts try to not only catch the palyers in situations like you noted, but they make it a serious goal to find several people outside of a player’s “protective circle” (that is, people outside of the coaches, players or family). Teachers are a good source, since they can comment on how a player responds and speaks in class. People who have employed the player might be another source they tap. Scouts definitely take what you have brought up seriously, and it is an important part of the overall grade. They recognize that bad attitudes in one are of life can easily translate to other areas of life. The belief that we can “compartmentalize” our contradictions is generally not accepted in scouting circles.

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 22, 2010 12:56 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks Styg,

pretty much what I thought went on. It just seems that the MSM focuses so much on the physical attributes that it gets a lot of us caught up in looking at those as well and forgetting there is so much more in being able to play this game. Appreciate your research and notes.

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Feb 22, 2010 1:28 PM MST up reply actions  

I sympathize with the MSM...

they set themselves up for 24 hour coverage, but eventually, there isn’t much left to show us…

Now if they were doing some true insider stuff, that might work…

Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.

"That's MR.Styg..."

by Jeremy Bolander on Feb 22, 2010 9:54 PM MST up reply actions  

What, you mean do some real honest to goodness

investigative research and report on it……doesn’t sound ike today’s MSM.

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Feb 23, 2010 10:11 AM MST up reply actions  

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