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The myth of a difficult system

After commenting on Quinn vs. Orton, I noticed a lot of comments that harped on how difficult McD's system is to learn. One interesting comment was that Brady said it was incredibly difficult. The problem is we're missing something when we apply that logic.

Let me make an analogy.....Math. We have to learn geometry, then we can learn algebra, then calculus, then theoretical functions (not even sure if this is a math subject; doesn't matter). The point here is that each one is a little bit different, yet they build on one another based on certain principles. The fact that one person does well in the basic levels does not assure success at a higher more difficult level. The fact that one person struggled at the basic level does not necessarily mean he will struggle in a higher level. The basic concepts may just come more slowly. While the latter (struggling at a basic level) should raise concern, people respond differently to different subjects, different ways of learning and take different amounts of time to comprehend. The crux of success in all these "math" subjects relies on the person's aptitude for a "mathematical" way of thinking and the quick, solid grasp of the core fundamentals of how math works. They kinduv go hand in hand. Certainly hard work can overcome aptitude and aptitude without the right intangibles can mean nothing.

How does this relate? Look, McD's system has certain principles that are required to operate it at every level. Has McD broken out the Calculus problems yet. I highly doubt it. If, when, Tom Brady is saying the system can take years to learn he is really commenting on the depth of the system, not the difficulty. McD is not giving Tom Brady or any QB a play or situation that is too difficult. In fact, he is feeding in baby size quantities. We clearly saw this with Cassel in '08. The guy had been in the system for a couple years, but when he started playing the system became a H.School version. There is no difficulty in that. The difference between McD's system and other systems goes back to the Paige interview early last year. If you remember, McD pridefully noted how thick his playbook was and how difficult and complex his ideas, schemes were/are, even noting there are some schemes that have never been seen.

This type of "difficulty" and the difficulty and challenges that Orton experienced are most likely two different things. Early in the year, when McD is exasperatingly saying, "no more my bad, make the play," he is showing frustration with Orton's inability to grasp and execute basic concepts. These are things he has gone over and expects success from his pupil on. I felt like this kind of reaction from McD occurred all year at different points.

What does it mean? Well, when we have gone out and picked up Quinn, it means McD may be seriously worried about Orton's ability to grasp, demonstrate proficiency in the basic decision-making & reaction requirements necessary to operate his system. Certainly Orton could be one of those learners that takes more than a year, but this is really, really unlikely. Certainly, Orton also showed that even at 80% of the requirements McD seeks, he can win games and lead this team far, even very far (everybody remember Dilfer/Grossman; he's far better on every level).

This is exactly why I expect Quinn to start. Quinn has demonstrated, when not under immense pressure (he was mostly), to be excellent in reading and making decisions. His time at ND demonstrated this as well. The fact is that the Cleveland Off and the coaches did not mesh with him, nor did he have the weapons to take pressure off him doing everything. The other factor is his arm is better. Notice I don't say stronger. Strength is a tricky topic and I want to avoid using that word. In more limited time than Orton, I thought Quinn made far more throws down the field in coverage (I don't count the Redskin TDs here).

I want to note that this potential competition has very little to do with the difficulty of the system, but the aptitude and foundation of each of these QBs as football players. At this point, very little is gonna change for these guys. They've been playing and doing this stuff for years. They are maxed out on their aptitude/talent. Their success will be based on the system, situation, and coaching. I had very high hopes for Orton last year. I was disappointed. This year, I have high hopes for Quinn. We've seen Orton and nothing is changing from last year. That is not necessarily bad. However, we could have someone that surpasses that because the change in system, situation, and coaching offer an excellent opportunity for seeing how far Quinn can go. I'm pretty sure after watching the Browns that we have definitely not seen that. Either way, it is only reason for optimism at the start of this next year.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 16 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Might untrained eye

Seems to me Orton has not mastered some of the simple(complicated?) things of quarterbacking, like looking off a safety before making a pass downfield. He was really solid making short passes, handoffs and deciding to dump the ball. I guess if we beef up the line and get the ground game going, Orton will work out just fine.

But there’s still a part of me that wants to see what Tom B could do. Give Quinn a year of soaking up the system, and let’s see what he can do next year…

Still got your Creedence...

by OutOfYourElement on Mar 16, 2010 12:10 AM MDT reply actions  

seems to be your untrained eye...

because looking off the safety is the exact thing he did against washington…

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Mar 16, 2010 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Agreed

And plus, that is entirely dependent on the safety.

by Topher Doll on Mar 17, 2010 12:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hey BedeshiBronco, nice write up.

Before you take a firm stand on Orton not changing, or Quinn coming in & doing great, or vice versa, you might want to take a look at this interview with McDaniels regarding Kyle Orton.

Quinn will be facing the same task that Orton faced last year — learning the terms and the expectations of McDaniels’ offense.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Mar 16, 2010 12:11 AM MDT reply actions  

Yes sir brian and thats what makes me excited about the upcoming season...

To see how Kyle progresses after one year in the system. If his progress starts to decline then we will have to look a little closer at him. I have a feeling this offense is going to take off this year especially now that the players are expected to be on the same page with development.

by bfree2bronc on Mar 16, 2010 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

Rec'd that comment, Brian

While it’s perfectly normal for the acquisition of any QB to spark lots of thoughts, theories and WAGs (wild donkey guesses), what really happened is that the Broncos dumped an inadequate backup and obtained a guy with problems that McD obviously feels can be overcome. The new QB is not the starter, nor was he brought in to start. Every QB wants to, but Orton has that job until and unless he falters and loses it.

At the pro level, Quinn has been pretty bad. The jump between college and the NFL is huge – so far, he hasn’t made it. Will he? Maybe. But if he does, that’s a ways down the road. Every NFL team needs a backup who has either substantial familiarity with the system – such as the case with Cassel when he stepped in for T Brady – and/or NFL playing time. Brandstater isn’t there yet. Perhaps he will be later, but you have to give the team some depth. Simms obviously wasn’t the answer. Perhaps Quinn will be – we have a chance to find that out for very little money.

I appreciate Brian’s take because he’ s basing it on real situations rather than vague guesswork. Nice job, BShrout

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 16, 2010 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Especially using a 6th round pick

On a player with Professional experience who will make the team. This draft pick will not be wasted.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Mar 16, 2010 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

your last comment is ridiculous

look, all this stuff is complete guesswork, you may agree with some of it more than others. We can only rest on our past judgment when it comes to demonstrating how good our insight into the future is. Unfortunately, that is difficult to keep track of here for everybody at MHR.

The other thing that can be used is statistics, but when we get into the sciences of football, its tricky to demonstrate where cause and effect lie. First, I love and welcome BShrout’s stats….its good research and should be commended. Second, its seriously flawed…..he is not taking YAC into account. I watched teams over play our short passes all year b/c Orton rarely played the odds in search of a big play. When he did throw down the field, it was mostly a weak ball that left little confidence…..and that was few and far between.

I’m not gonna go overboard attacking the validity of these stats, the opinion is probably more a judgment and that is ok. What isn’t honest though is acting like anyone on this site is doing more then guesswork b/c they provide information (esp. stats, b/c I think I provided information) with their argument.
Lose the professorial tone, you don’t have it figured out and more stats ain’t gonna prove you do.

by BideshiBronco on Mar 18, 2010 12:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

This is a good post BideshiBronco and I agree with you on almost all points you make.

But there are people everywhere who expect the team to succeed even after a 60% turn over. It’s possible, but highly irregular and thoughtless thinking. The point is…If people would stop acting like George Armstrong Custer, they wouldn’t get so many arrows stuck in their chest! Patience is the medicine to mediocrity restraints that will lead us to success…Patience grass-hopper…

by bfree2bronc on Mar 16, 2010 9:40 AM MDT reply actions   2 recs

+1

"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."

by bchiper on Mar 16, 2010 9:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

ditto bchiper's comment LOL

& rec’d

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Mar 16, 2010 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

How do you know what Josh meant by his comments ? grasp and execute basic concepts ? How do you know unless you were in the huddle ?
This type of “difficulty” and the difficulty and challenges that Orton experienced are most likely two different things. Early in the year, when McD is exasperatingly saying, “no more my bad, make the play,” he is showing frustration with Orton’s inability to grasp and execute basic concepts. These are things he has gone over and expects success from his pupil on. I felt like this kind of reaction from McD occurred all year at different points.

20/29 243yds 8.4 ypa 2td 0 picks 117.5 qbr

The game in which supposedly Josh was frustrated because Orton couldnt grasp or execute basic concepts .

These types of posts are what people refer to as grasping at straws .

I dont think Josh has a problem with Ortons intelligence or ability at all. In fact I would say he was pleasantly by everything he saw and heard from Orton throughout the year.

On QB Kyle Orton’s future with Denver

“Again, we are going to evaluate the whole thing. I don’t want to get ahead of that. Kyle Orton was a guy that, we said we want smart players-that’s what he is. (He is) tough, he is a great teammate, the players voted him as a captain. I’ve got a lot of respect for him-I do and the players do. He did a lot of good things and he improved. It was his first year in this system and the system is dramatically different from the one before (in Chicago), so I would look for him to continue to improve in our system. Again, I’m not going to sit here and make declarations about the future and jump through the roster and contracts and all that, but I’m pleased with a lot of what Kyle did and I saw improvement in what he did. I was happy to have the opportunity to work with him this year and we look forward to the future.”

and some intersting quotes from the coaches interview last month courtesy of Bshrout

I think it’s really important because he, again, probably had as much or more to learn last year because of what we do ask our quarterbacks to do for the offense mentally. I think the fact that he’s got a great foundation, a great base of understanding of the terms and the things we ask him to do from a mental stand point, I think he’ll be able to start running. Last year, it was kind of a walk, walk, maybe crawl first and then walk, and then start running . . .

Kyle can focus on some other things as well. Improving his strength, his overall mobility. Those things in the weight room.

Last year was such a burden on him mentally, just to understand all that. I think that will allow him do do some other things and get better. He wants to, we need him to.
The big thing for us is to kind of let Kyle flourish this off season.
It’ll be exciting to see how far Kyle can come. We’ll look forward to it. We’re going to push him. He’s a leader. He’ll respond to that and I think that will affect the rest of the team.

Sounds like a coach who is pretty confident in his QB and seems to be expecting a pretty big year from him. I dont see anywhere how he is questioning Ortons intelligence if anything he seems to be pretty happy with it.

by Hoopforia on Mar 16, 2010 12:42 PM MDT reply actions   3 recs

The most important thing about understanding the big picture is actually looking at it all.

Nobody’s going to understand what McDaniels opinion of Orton is by listening to one sound bite or reading one quotation.

Great job here Hoop, these kinds of things are important. They help add in the whol spectrum of McD’s opinion and analysis of Orton. Everyone one of those quotes could mean something totally different on its own, but when you read all of them together, it helps shape the whole situation. Thanks for the insight.

"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery

by Alexander Wall on Mar 16, 2010 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Every coach

Has moments that they get flustered, and since Orton is the quiet type of player, it’s sometimes the best way to get him to perform by saying something like that. I doubt that one comment really ruined McD’s view of Orton.

by Topher Doll on Mar 17, 2010 12:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

Very nice post, BideshiBronco!

Thanks and rec’d.

"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character." -- Albert Einstein

by hairybear on Mar 16, 2010 3:38 PM MDT reply actions  

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