The System...
by go4broncos on Mar 18, 2010 10:04 AM MDT
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PrintI get the idea that after one year in the system, our players should be able to excecute better; however, We started the season 6-0 (the least amount of experience in the system) and finished 2-8 (with more experience). Sure fatigue plays into it, but that's true for all teams. One might even argue that playing at altitude gives us an advantage with regards to endurance.
The same can be said for Orton. He played great at the beginning of the season, despite a dislocated finger, yet as the season wore on, it's like he regressed. Ok, fine, the defense lost us some of those games when Orton played good.
But the same can be said about the defense. Our whole D-line is going to be different. We dropped a starting linebacker. That's more than a third of the starting lineup. Granted, these changes were presumeably to make them better, but defense, more so than offense, needs more time to gel and trust eachother.
Additionally, one more year in the system is also one more year for opposing coordinators to counter or offensive strategy, which is what seemed to happen as the season wore on. At first, opposing defense's weren't sure what to expect from McDaniels, but as the offense played it's hand throughout the season, they were able to gameplan for it, causing our offense to become inept.
So I ask, what makes you think they'll be better this year if it's based on "one more year in the system"?
GO BRONCOS!!!
P.S. I don't mean to be pessemistic. I do think that our offense will become better next year adding more plays into the mix etc, but I wanted to hear others' ideas on the subject.
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Good questions
I think the biggest benefit of a “year in the system” on both sides of the ball will be found in the players having to think less about precisely what it is they are supposed to do in any given play.
So when Orton gets in the huddle and calls out: “Zero, Ride Thirty-six.” The players won’t have to spend as much time trying to remember which formation “Zero” sets, who “Thirty” is that will be carrying the ball and which hole “Six” is that he will be running through. And that’s just a simple run call. Imagine what it would look like for a multiple receiver pass play. Guys will be able to simply do their job, as opposed to have to think about what it is they’re supposed to do.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 18, 2010 11:28 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Yeah for sure Brian
and where it get’s difficult and complicated is when they learn 10 different variations of the same play. Confusing the defense is half the battle won.
That's true
but then why was our offense not performing as well towards the end of the season? Shouldn’t this have translated into more efficiently excecuted plays? I got the impression that this was not the case as the season wore on.
GO BRONCO!!!
Fatigue
The simple answer is that the team just wore out. The interior offensive line was old, Harris was injured and collectively they didn’t play well because of it. You could throw in the Orton injury, if you want to, but the biggest things that stood out to me was the complete lack of pass protection and run blocking near the end of the season.
Hopefully a lot of this will be remedied with the draft and the rest of free agency. We also need Harris to get healthy. That is a huge piece that we need to have in place at the start of the season.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 18, 2010 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions
KB, this is my belief, BUT
take it with a grain of salt becasue I am always looking for a hopeful (ie, fixable) way to view the team’s progression.
I think McDaniels point to part of the answer in one of his interviews
I’m sorry but I forget exactly which one, or I’d give a link to it.
He made the comment that the team (he included the coaches in this) did not respond well to adversity, i.e. they did not respond well to losing. The impression that I was left with was that it kinda snowballed.
They were able to break the cycle with the NYG & 1st KC game, but then lost to Indy after almost coming back, and that rocked their self-confidence again.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 18, 2010 10:41 PM MDT up reply actions
As you stated,
I think it is correct for us to assume that the 6-0 start could have been attributed to the relative unknowns that opposing coordinators where dealing with when they where facing us, I also think it is quite obvious that confidence played a major part in that start as well. Despite the 2-8 finishing record i still think that in many games we where competitive and if one or two things had changed we would have won.. so to say that opposing coaches figured out what we where doing is not technically correct. I think a better way of looking at it is that last year we where a team with a few major weaknesses, and at the beginning of the season McDaniels and the rest of the coaching staff where able to hide them quite effectively because we were unpredictable and hard to game plan against due to lack of available information or tape on us. During the latter part of the season, more tape was available and our weaknesses where more apparent, hence teams being able to run down our throat all game long.
Now with a year under his belt and a full seasons worth of tape for Josh to watch and understand, he can fully evaluate our weakness and make the necessary moves to either get rid of or dilute them so that we are a more technically sound team this year. This is what you have been seeing with the rebuilding of our D line. Also it means that Josh can evaluate what worked and what didn’t in terms of plays and game strategies.. all these things are being looked at, assessed and adjusted if they need to be.
So from a coaching perspective I guess one more year in the system means he would understand a lot more about what he can and can’t do with his players and from that gain a greater understanding of what our teams strengths are and how to maximise them on game day.
From the players perspective I would imagine that as Brian said above, the players can be much more instinctive and natural because they have a far greater understanding of the play book and a higher degree of familiarity with the part they have to play on specific plays and also how their team mates will respond on those plays. This in theory should lead to less stupid mistakes and hopefully a more dynamic offense and a more resistant defense. The players can concentrate more effectively on the game because they don’t have the constant distraction off uncertainty in regards to the plays and how their team mates will respond.
So from my perspective, one more year in the system is very valuable for the whole broncos organisation.
I didn’t see what you said as pessimistic at all so don’t worry about that.. there ain’t nuthin wrong with a healthy desire to question. ;-)
by HorseStance on Mar 18, 2010 12:01 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Great Response
That’s the kind of answer I was looking for. Part of me hopes that McD was holding back quite a bit of his playbook. This does two things. One, it allows his players to get comfortable with the base formations. Two, it doesn’t tip his hand for next year. I think he’ll be able to pull out the other half of his playbook and start installing it.
Everybody was predicting 4-12. He knew he had the first season to sacrifice. The fact that he came in at 8-8 shows how much better this team was than everybody thought. Also, it showed how well we can do out of the base formations without too much complexity. I don’t think he had any real intentions of getting into the playoffs. When they were in site, yeah, of course, but it wasn’t in his broader gameplan. The 8-8 finish was enough to inspire confidence in the vets that with a few minor adjustments and another year in the system, we can only get better. Alot better.
McD also had to scrap the old team and started a new one. Yeah, a lot of the players were back, but a lot were gone and both offense and defense have new systems to learn. It’s funny, because, while we had quite a bit of roster turnover, I don’t remember hearing too much that “The Broncos’ are rebuilding” like you hear about the raiders and the chiefs. It WAS a rebuilding year, but we still managed 8-8. I think next year, we’ll dominate.
GO BRONCOS!!
P.S. It’s easy to get caught up in the conspiracy theory stuff and say things like “He was holding back.” or “Next season the other half of the playbook will be installed” or “He didn’t use certain plays because he didn’t want to tip his hand.” and things like that. Who knows what the reality is.
I dont agree with this at all.
8-8 teams dont rebuild. #2 ranked offenses (in yards) don’t rebuild. Last place defenses do rebuild which is what Denver did. ST.Louis, KC and Detroit are rebuilding. Denver is head and shoulders above those teams in terms of talent and depth.
Also, I dont think any coach goes into a season expecting to sacrifice a season. Mangini is NYJ is a perfect example of this. He was one and done because the owners didnt like the direction the team is heading. At the end of the day you are still held accountable. Especially when you have millions of dollars in salary and advertising on the line.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Agreed about the coaching motives..
Not sure it’s so easy to say we were not rebuilding.. the roster turn over alone seems to argue against that?
Ok
Maybe it was a bit far fetched to say he “sacrificed” the season. Maybe he didn’t sacrifice it, but he knew he wasn’t going to be fired after one season, no matter the outcome. This gives him the chance to build for the long term knowing that while a short term fix might win an extra game or two it wont help him the next season. It wasn’t going to solve the real problems with the gameplan and the roster. Realistically, reaching the superbowl wasn’t exactly a goal for the 2009 season. There were too many holes to fill. Too much change. McD knew this, and so did Bowlen. He’s too good of an owner to say, “Take me to the Superbowl now or you’re fired. I don’t care what you’re given that’s left over from the previous regime.” That is a rebuilding year if you ask me. New Quarterback, new offensive and defensive schemes, new defensive secondary minus Champ, new starters across the specturm, new backups, new defensive coordinator (nothing new there actually), new coaching staff, heck, the water boy was probably new,
Your #2 offense was based on a different scheme, different quarterback, and different running back.
Just because we’re rebuilding, doesn’t mean we won’t be in contention. Our rebuilding is another teams good season. That speaks to the quality of the Denver Broncos Organization.
GO BRONCOS!!!
Something else to keep in mind
As I understand it, at a very basic level, Shanahan’s West Coast Offense tended to run multiple plays out of the same base formation.
Contrast that with the McDaniels system which runs a set of base plays out of multiple formations.
Add in that there was a complete change in the terminology used to call the play.
Typical McDaniels Passing play call: Zero Flood Slot Hat, Seventy-eight Shout Tosser
Typical WCO Passing play call: Trey Right 680 Corner/Cut Strong
Players would have had to stop to think about what formation Zero was referring to, etc.
It simply added to the problem of mastering the system.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 18, 2010 10:55 PM MDT up reply actions
I disagree..............
That defense needs more time to gel and trust each other than offense. IMHO Offense takes longer. Also our leaders on defense have year in the system and that will help if we have one-third new starters on D then we have two-thirds returning starters, plus the players that stayed will give us depth that has a year in the system. Overall our defense will be much improved IMHO.
C'mon draft! I am ever the optimist! What a fun time of year!
I agree with Broncofan
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Really?
I don’t know. I kinda thought that with offenses you are attacking more. The play is called and you execute it. The "gel"ing comes at the O-line where you need to know who the guy next to you is going to block. Quarterbacks and recievers have to gel on the timeing routes.
Defense is more reactionary. You can attack, but you have to react based on what the offense is doing. If your guys are reacting differently, you’re going to get burned. The cornerback has to know the safety has him over the top, and by how much. The linebacker has to react instantly depending on pass or run. If it’s run, he depends on his down lineman to fill certain gaps or take up certain blockers. If it’s a fake and DL knows it, they’ll play their blocker differently, trying to shed him as opposed to occupy him. Linebackers have to read that and go where they’re needed.
Also, one mistake by two defenders could mean a touchdown with both of’em looking at eachother like “I thought you had him”, “No, I thought YOU had him” whereas on offense, maybe it’s a loss of yardage, no biggie, go to the next play.
I don’t know. Let’s hear your side of it.
GO BRONCOS!!!
There weren't too many mess ups in the secondary due to experience..
The Linebackers where a different story mainly due to transitions. The D line seemed to either lack talent of stamina.. maybe both.
The main reason we where so good during the first part of the season was the D, it was dominant in all phases, the O barely did enough to win.
Too me the offense was the bigger problem last year.. mainly because it took too long to get going of lacked the ability to finish drives. Sure there where plenty of good drives but it wasn’t consistent.. those good drives and the big plays we all remember last year hint of our potential and the ‘one more year in our system’ thing would account for the constancy so the O should be more improved this year.. while the D should be just as dominant but last longer.
I think it is
Quality depth that was lacking. If your starting 22 could play the whole season without any major injuries (Harris, McBean, Orton ankle injury) then you only have to worry about backups giving a brief spell for the starters during each game. When you have to rely on backups for a significant amout of playing time and they are not quality backups then you see the problems that we had. I do agree that fatigue played a part in the run defence meltdown. Which did lead to playing time of less than adequate quality backup players. We have seen through FA signings that more quality depth has been added.
Good point..
Another reason why one more year is beneficial to our team.. lots of chances to acquire more talent to fill out the roster.
to clarify with a better response
What I was agreeing about is that because the defense is reactionary and (In our case) an attacking style of defense, they will always be ahead of the offense from the start of Training Camp to the start of the season. By then the offense should be in full stride. My feeling is that the D will have to shoulder the bigger share of the load. The play calling showed it’s ineptness because the personnel on the O Line wasn’t diverse enough to call the plays that the McD offense calls for. Because of the size difference of the O Line, which was built for the Zone Block scheme, and the conversion to a bigger line to run the Power style, they could not get the job done. there was no real way to get around it last year. McX tried to bring in more guys to make the transition, but we changed 40% of the roster as it is. We were right in the middle of changing the defensive philosophy also, and that experiment had some better results. Since we have pretty much restocked the D Line, I expect that side of the ball to be better. I am not sure what to expect out of the offense right now at this time. They resigned Hochstein, who I thought did not do that well last year, and there are questions about Olsen and Dustin Fry. Who will play center? Fry has experience at both Guards ans at center, albeit not much in the Pros, but there are small puzzle pieces like that versatility which McD likes. He also came from a Belichick disciple (Mangini) that has a little familiarity with the way McD runs things. Example, I read where Mangini makes players run laps at practice when they screw up a play. Guess what? In Training Camp last year, I witnessed Josh doing the same thing.
I guess what I’m trying to say is, if the O Line issues get addressed, the playbook can open up more. With Peyton Hillis gone and who knows what will happen with Marshall and Scheffler, not to mention will Eddie show up, we will just have to be patient for a little longer to see what will happen.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Mar 18, 2010 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well, said, Kirk.
"All by their heads, he places crowns."
"Brandon Marshall isn't as good as you think he is." - a random hobo I met
by Tempestuous Binary on Mar 19, 2010 7:04 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree
defenses can generally react to what the offense does. Offenses need to be proactive to make gains.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Broncofan has a point
BShrout….i agree with you, but you yourself stated that the d-line will be totally different, as will the o-line to some degree. But i think with experience to look back on, and more time to prepare, we can expect a start as least as strong as ’09.
Oh, side note, with the Charges purging their ranks as well, i think we have a MORE than legit shot at the division. GO BRONCOS
your mom
GS, I'm confused
Where did I say that the d-line will be totally different?
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 18, 2010 10:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I believe the 2-8 fall from grace had less to do with endurance and more to do with the falling out between DC and HC.
by chriscalifornia on Mar 19, 2010 2:51 PM MDT reply actions
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