An "I'm Tired" Rant... the Kyle Orton Edition
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 3:22 PM MDT
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Hey there, MHR-ians... the Fan formerly known as HillisRanUover here... and I'm back after a little break with something that has made me weary and fatigued.... Enjoy.
I'm tired of the Kyle Orton vs. Brady Quinn debate. Look... Kyle Orton is the starter of the Denver Broncos. Get over it already. Remember 2009? Before training camp even began, Coach McDaniels named Kyle Orton the Day 1 starter of the Denver Broncos. And dispite all of the clamour of the fan base to start Chris Simms.... Dispite all of the "Boo's" at the training camp scrimmage... dispite the horrific pre-season start... and dispite, even calls for rookie Tom Brandstater to be the starter... guess who had the job on gameday... week 1? That's right Kyle Orton.
More after the Jump...
When the Broncos made the move for Brady Quinn, what was the first thing Josh McDaniels did... he stated very clearly that "Kyle Orton is the starter" at QB for the Denver Broncos in 2010. He even called Kyle Orton to make sure he knew that he was still the starting QB for the 2010 Denver Broncos. Anyone else who speculates something different is either delutional or is not breathing to thier full capacity. There is not a QB controversy in Denver.
Now of course, there are those fans for whom KO just isn't sexy enough for... and so they are clamouring for Brady Quinn because he somehow looks the part. For them, it doesn't matter what kind of production KO puts up, he just doesn't pass the eye test. To think that Kyle will never be a great QB because he doesn't score well on your "eye test" in which you impliment from your barcalounger... well, it's almost laughable. I'm sure your wife is a super-model too.
Anyone who thinks that Brady Quinn is a superior QB to Kyle Orton is... well... quite mis-informed. Let's just take a look at the numbers...
Kyle Orton
| Season | Team | Passing | Rushing | Fumbles | |||||||||||||||
| G | GS | Comp | Att | Pct | Yds | Avg | TD | Int | Sck | SckY | Rate | Att | Yds | Avg | TD | FUM | Lost | ||
| 2009 | Denver Broncos | 16 | 15 | 336 | 541 | 62.1 | 3,802 | 7.0 | 21 | 12 | 29 | 159 | 86.8 | 24 | 71 | 3.0 | 0 | 4 | 2 |
| 2008 | Chicago Bears | 15 | 15 | 272 | 465 | 58.5 | 2,972 | 6.4 | 18 | 12 | 27 | 160 | 79.6 | 24 | 49 | 2.0 | 3 | 6 | 5 |
| 2007 | Chicago Bears | 3 | 3 | 43 | 80 | 53.8 | 478 | 6.0 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 12 | 73.9 | 5 | -1 | -0.2 | 0 | 2 | 0 |
| 2006 | Chicago Bears | 0 | 0 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | 0.0 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| 2005 | Chicago Bears | 15 | 15 | 190 | 368 | 51.6 | 1,869 | 5.1 | 9 | 13 | 30 | 190 | 59.7 | 24 | 44 | 1.8 | 0 | 12 | 5 |
| TOTAL | 841 | 1,454 | 57.8 | 9,121 | 6.3 | 51 | 39 | 88 | 521 | 76.9 | 77 | 163 | 2.1 | 3 | 24 |
12 |
|||
Brady Quinn
| Season | Team | Passing | Rushing | Fumbles | |||||||||||||||
| G | GS | Comp | Att | Pct | Yds | Avg | TD | Int | Sck | SckY | Rate | Att | Yds | Avg | TD | FUM | Lost | ||
| 2009 | Cleveland Browns | 10 | 9 | 136 | 256 | 53.1 | 1,339 | 5.2 | 8 | 7 | 19 | 104 | 67.2 | 20 | 98 | 4.9 | 1 | 4 | 3 |
| 2008 | Cleveland Browns | 3 | 3 | 45 | 89 | 50.6 | 518 | 5.8 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 9 | 66.6 | 5 | 21 | 4.2 | 0 | -- | -- |
| 2007 | Cleveland Browns | 1 | 0 | 3 | 8 | 37.5 | 45 | 5.6 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 56.8 | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- | -- |
| TOTAL | 184 | 353 | 52.1 | 1,902 | 5.4 | 10 | 9 | 20 | 113 | 66.8 | 25 | 119 | 4.8 | 1 | 4 | 3 | |||
And exactly what give's you the idea that Brady Quinn is a superior QB to Kyle Orton? Um.... I'm waiting for your rational response....
That's what I thought.
Don't get me wrong... I think the Brady Quinn pick up was awesome, and it was an upgrade to our back-up QB slot. For around $700,000 we picked up a very good back-up QB with starting experience if something ever happened to the NeckBeard. But all of the clamour that McD brought Quinn in because he's un-happy with Orton is just plain silly. If that was the case, we would have heard McDaniels say something like.... "We look forward to healthy competition for every position this year..." but we didn't exactly hear that, did we?
People forget, that last year, when he could have pursued Brady Quinn in the Jay Cutler trade, he chose Kyle Orton instead. Sure... Quinn was in the discussions, but ultimately, McD.... Mr. QB Guru... pulled the trigger for Killer Kyle. Don't think that McDaniels has suddenly had a change of heart... especially considering the numbers above.
Look. Kyle Orton has steadily improved every year... and we should expect no different in 2010. He now has 1 year experience in the system.... He has an entire year of coaching with McD (Orton mentioned he learned more in 4 months with McDaniels, than he had in his entire career as a pro)... and he has had a whole year to build chemistry with the offense... something offenses need to flourish. Bring in a couple peices on the OL and we are looking at an offense that getting ready to explode.
So.... all you who are flush and feverish about Brady Quinn... go take a cold shower, and come back to reality... cuz 2010 is the year of the NeckBeard.
I know... I saw it on a chinese calendar last week.
GO BRONCOS!!!
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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i'm delusional
Cause I just dont see it with Orton
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Do you see it with Quinn?
cuz if you look at the numbers… there isn’t much to see. It’s not eye-candy… that’s for sure.
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I dont know what Quinn has either
His stats wont compare that great with Ortons last year but then again he didnt have nearly as much too work with.
For me, watching Orton last year was abusive. At times it hurt.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
OK... then compare 2009 Quinn with 2008 Orton....
You can’t tell me that the Bear’s had an immense amount of talent surrounding Orton in 08 either…
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Well 2008 Orton didnt have to throw the ball too much
But I remember early 2008 Orton was on fire. He faltered down the stretch. Infact, off the top of my head I think early 2008 Orton played better then 2009 Orton.
However, Forte was a stud in 2008 and a great dump off valve. Quinn has never had any serious talent around him unless you count bobblehands who pretty much cost Quinn the starting gig.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
So what was the Problem with Cutler then...
If Forte was the reason Orton was so good… then what happened for Jay?
It’s the same old thing… if Orton did well, it was because of everyone else… if Quinn stunk… it was because of everyone else. Sounds like a previous QB we had around here…
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions
I think this is a two part question
So this is how I’m going to answer it.
1) in Comparing Orton to Quinn I was simply stating that Orton had better weapons and more importantly a better team around (namely defense). His numbers in Chicago arent eye popping by any means. This isnt to suggest that he doesnt deserve some of the credit like you are implying I am saying. I just think if you’re going to look at all possible factors Quinn has definitely worked with less talent up till this point in his career.
2) Cutler.. oh boy. I’m going to get roasted for this. Personally. stats wise he had a terrible year. That being said he still won 7 games. 7 games with a defense that wasnt as good as Denvers. Chicago’s O line is much worse then Denvers. His receivers weren’t nearly as polished as Denvers starting the year. (although If Marshall does get traded I would put Chicago’s WR’s on par with Denvers now). Forte clearly regressed this year to the point where Chester Taylor was brought in to take some slack off of him. Also, not to defend the guy but 7 of his 16 games were played against top 6 defenses. (2 GBAY, 1 CINCI, 1 BALT, 2 MIN, 1 PITT).
If were going to extend excuses for why Orton is going to get better (improvement in OLINE, better coaching, etc) then the same excuses must be extended to Cutler for why he had a down year. Plus, like I mentioned earlier, for all the ridicule the guy takes (much of I agree he brought on himself) he still managed to win 1 less game then Denver did.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Mar 18, 2010 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wow...this argument never gets old....
Orton is a good QB, but there will be guys on here that crush him regardless. Is he great? Probably not, but played better than Cutler and probably 60% of the league.
Quinn still has upside.
We need help on O line and then this will set up success for ANY Qb Denver plays.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
He did...but they were tipped to win the NFC North and go 11-5. Denver was suppose to go 4-12. We did 4 games better than predicted with Orton, and they did 4 games worse predicted with Cutler.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
But we both know Boydy
That preseason predictions mean nothing. Especially here on MHR where everyone has such a disdain for the MSM. I thought the preseason predictions were 13-3.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I think the point was...
Denver exceeded everyone’s expectations….
Chicago was far below everyone’s expectations…
Remember, our “13-3 baby” mantra… this is a fan site… no one here was claiming that 13-3 was a totally objective view for the season…
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 19, 2010 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I understand
But I’m going to reference MCGeorge here. With all the talent this team has he nor I ever expected 3-13. Tampa is a 3 win team. Denver has solid players and pro bowl players at some of the hardest position to play (Lt and Cb). The lower of expectations was directly responsible to how MCD handle the offseason and the draft. I’m not saying what he did was right or wrong. I’m not going to get into that arguement at this time. But when you generally need defense and mostly go offense during your draft the so called experts question your ability.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Cutler won seven games
But I think he threw something like 4 INTs in the last two minutes of games in which the Bears were within seven points. So… yeah.
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
And..
Orton through two pick 6’s against a 3 win KC team.. Qb’s throw picks sometimes.. Its part of the game
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Mar 19, 2010 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Some picks come when the game is basically out of reach.
Some picks cost your team the game. Not all INTs are created equally.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Forsure
But in the instance I just mentioned both QB’s picks cost their team the game.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Mar 19, 2010 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Did they?
Orton’s picks did come at a crucial time, but I think KC was going to hand us our @#$! that day no matter what. Hard to pin Charles’s day on Orton throwing picks. They definitely didn’t help…..
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Down by 3 when he threw the first one
Down by 6 when he threw the 2nd one.
Yes Charles was running all over Denver., But Denver had their chances.
My point is simply this.. All Qb’s throw picks. Cutlers INT’s cost his team a game just like Ortons did just like Peytons did in the Superbowl. I wont pick and choose who I defend and who I dont. It just gets old when you come onto MHR and you see comments about how a player is terrible or a player is great when the proper time and film study havent been applied acros the board. I dont care if people rip Cutler, but if Orton played the top 6 defenses 7x this year that would be another in a long line of stats or excuses as to why this team didnt improve.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Mar 19, 2010 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions
I understand what you're saying
But if we’re not “picking” who we do and don’t defend, I think 27 INTs speaks for itself.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
You're right
But like you said.. Not all INT’s are created equally. 27 ints or 12 ints.. It was only a difference of 1 in the win/loss column.
Where as Cutler seems like the type that can overcome a few INT’s in a game Orton doesnt have that ability. I’d still rather not throw them mind you, but in the course of a game sometimes they’re just inevitable.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Welcome back GGK
MHR would have been a strange place without your “I’m tired” rants.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
I was never gone... just in mourning over the loss of Mr. Hillis....
but it feels good to rant… I was getting tired of holding it in…
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 3:30 PM MDT up reply actions
You could rant about Hillis leaving if you wanted to.
That’s perfectly legal.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 18, 2010 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Flag on the PLAY!!!
5 post penalty….repeat 2 comment.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
gr.... Second commnet....not 2
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
grrrr....... that's a drive killer. My bad.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 19, 2010 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Rec'd
I want nothing more than Kyle as our starting QB, Marshall is our Starting WR, and Moreno is our starting RB. I liked what I saw last year, and everyone is still growing and continuing to improve.
However, I do wish I had Quinn’s abs.
by BroadwayBroncoFan on Mar 18, 2010 3:32 PM MDT reply actions
I actually have Quinn's abs...
I just have them protected under a very thick protective layer…
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 3:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Hmm..according to your own stats, Quinn is the better QB in each QBs first three seasons.....
They are almost identical through their first three seasons, but Quinn is slightly better with about 5 fewer starts. Just something to ponder.
It’s like saying a ten year old will always whoop ass on a 6 year old no matter what….eventually the 6 year old might surpass that 10 year old and whoop his ass. Just sayin…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Mar 18, 2010 3:41 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
If It was John Elways 6yr old
He would whoop Peyton Mannings 10yr old ass.. :)
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Kind of impossible to compare by the year...
KO got thrust into the starter roll as a rook…. Quinn rode the pine as a rook…
Both have had portions of the season on the IR…
but even if you take Quinn’s best year… and compare it to KO’s total numbers… KO has him beat in almost every area… percentage wise.
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice Rant HRU...Uh...I mean GGK
I have missed your rants and I’m looking forward to more soon…I am quite sure that you have been holding in alot more than just this Quinn / Orton one…
Rec’d…Great to have you back!
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
THX... and I do have more to rant about...
but creating a rant is like making fine wine… you’ve got to let it sit and ferment in you for a while before you let it out… So I’m letting them stew… until the right time….
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 4:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Right on Bruthu...Stew away...LOL
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
by BroncoSense72 on Mar 18, 2010 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Let's talk delusions
Orton apologists had an unofficial mantra last season to try and argue away his subpar performance in Chicago. Something to the tune of “Let’s see what Orton can do with good coaching and a good supporting cast.” Fine. He had a year and landed in the middle of the pack in every statistical category, excelling in none. For whatever reason, that courtesy of wait and see is not being given to Quinn coming in. Even though Quinn’s upside is arguably higher based solely on physical abilities, he is being treated – quite literally – the same way that guys like me are accused of treating Orton. I don’t know what Kyle Orton has pictures of you guys doing, but if you can look at Orton’s performance from last season and be impressed, then the delusion is staring right back at you. Is Quinn going to come in and light it up? Probably not. But there’s a perfectly good chance that he’ll come in and be just as good as Orton was last season.
If you’re going to argue that “we haven’t seen how good Orton can be”, then the same argument has to be made for Quinn.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Mar 18, 2010 4:06 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree that Quinn... with coaching... could be a good, if not great, QB...
But at this moment… there is no what you can tell me that Quinn is a better QB that Orton… or that Orton could not move from good, to great.
Orton had a pretty good year in a brand new system. Even Favre struggled learning a new system in NY. It’s not an easy thing… and Orton did a pretty good job of it. Quinn will be where Orton was last year.
To say that Quinn is better than Orton is a completely subjective argument and not neccessarily supported by the stats. In fact, from my view of it… it might be the other way around.
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 18, 2010 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions
I'll take that bait
Three games. Weeks 4,5, and 6. Orton was 75 for 106 (70.8%) for 802 yards with 6 TD’s and 1 pre-halftime heave for an interception against Dallas, New England and San Diego – three playoff teams. Were there hard times? Yes. I’ll be the first to admit, sometimes Orton looked down-right ugly out there, but our O-line, backs, and receivers not named Brandon Marshall weren’t playing at a high level all the time either. Orton will never be mistaken for Tom Brady or Peyton Manning – but there’s a reason why they’re who they are and make the money that they make.
As for Quinn, regardless of the talent around him he has never put together a 3 game stretch like that – he’s never put together a 2 game stretch like that. I’d love to see him fulfill all the accolades and predictions handed to him at Notre Dame – but I’m not going to assume it. Quinn supporters love to bring in the athleticism – that’s kind of like me trying a speedy convertible in Alaska. We don’t need an athlete at QB. I know that hurts because we all grew to love John Elway – but he’s gone. The west coast offense is gone. We need smart, accurate, tough passers. Until Quinn proves that he can be what he is off the field on it, he should worry less about starting over Orton and more about beating Brandstater for the #2. Nothing will be handed to him.
I see one caveat to the claim that our system does not "need" an athlete at QB.
I understand our system calls for more of a traditional pocket passer, and I agree with your general take on things. But, every time I see it written that we don’t ‘need’ a scrambling QB, my immediate thought is always, “But it can’t HURT us to have one, can it?”. At some point in the season…in nearly every game…the pocket is going to collapse. Traditional pocket passer or no, it’s always a bonus to have a QB who can run and who can make things happen when everything is going to *#&! around him. Especially inside the 5, it’s nice to have a QB who can take off if he needs to, regardless of the system.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
I'm not disagreeing
But that – if you don’t mind sticking with the speedy convertible analogy – is an “add on”. Sure it’d be nice to have an athletic QB, why wouldn’t you if you could? But I’m sure any OC, especially one that coaches a precise, timing offense like ours, would not want scrambling ability at the cost of decision making, accuracy, mental toughness, etc. At this point, and I’m not saying you or anybody else disagrees – I’m just saying, Orton has a considerable advantage. Frankly, it may be easier to get Orton to run some more cones this off season (I know it takes more than that, I’m just generalizing) than it will be to unteach/reteach Quinn’s fundamentals.
That might be right.
I am so torn. I have always been very big on Orton, but I also am one of the few left who will admit to loving Notre Dame, and I wanted very badly for Quinn to take the reins from Plummer back in the day. That said, I agree with you, that Kyle is at a big advantage. The ONLY thing that really irks me with Kyle is how easily (and often) he seems to go down. Part of that might be the ankles, but — for my tastes — he is just a little too far over the line into “safe.” That might be because he’s doing what the coaches tell him, and you can’t fault a guy for being coachable. But to make a big play, you have to take a chance once in a while. I dunno, I guess that’s why it’s such a fine line. It’s better to take a sack or throw an incompletion rather than force it and give up a turnover, but every once in a while you’ve gotta play take a shot and play to WIN.
Sorry, this comment is quickly devolving into incoherent rambling….
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
The ball should already be out by then if he has it long enough for the pocket to collapse then hes holding it too long. If the pocket is immediately collapsing then the protection is crap.
Also in this offense the reason the QB is often referred to as the point guard is because he is in the middle of the floor surveying his option making the right decisions as his weapons move around him .
If he starts moving left to right then it limits what throws he can make as most of the time guys are not going vertically but horizontally and the last thing you want is a play in which your receivers are going from right to left and your QB gets flushed out of the pocket to his right trying to make a throw back across his body.
Now the kicker is that Orton before he was injured actually made several plays with his legs .Hes not as good as jay on the move but he can move quite well when healthy I just think he was not as in good of shape as he couldve been last year and Josh even hinted Orton didnt get a chance to work on his body as much because he dedicated so much time to the playbook.
I will be very interested to see what type of shape Orton is in come July .
Sadly, as we saw this year, every o-line is going to struggle from time to time.
My point is, if a QB can run McD’s offense AND has the ability to run when needed, would we really NOT want that? Anyone can lead and excel in good conditions. It’s when the excrement hits the wind-stirring device that the elite separate themselves.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Great point about Kyle worrying mostly about the mental aspect
and maybe not being in the best shape possible last year. Hadn’t considered that too much before…
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
I'm inclined to believe that we do not yet know how good either one of them can be
Orton struggled last year. So did Quinn.
Orton’s statistics have improved every year that he’s been the primary starter for his team. So there is no way to yet tell where his ceiling is.
Quinn has had only 1 year in which he can be considered the primary starter. So there is no way to gauge how well he has/has not improved from year to year, and no way to determine where his ceiling is either.
I’m inclined to believe that whichever QB makes the strongest showing in the off-season and in training camp will be the starter come September. If Orton comes into the summer and pulls a Bubby Brister to Quinn’s being Brian Griese, we may well see Quinn start over Orton. At this point in time, however, we don’t know how it will play out.
If I were to take a stand, based on the current situation, I would be inclined to say that Orton has the advantage, due to his having played for McDaniels for a full season. While there will be similarities between Weis’ system at Notre Dame and McDaniels’ system in Denver, I cannot help but believe that there are mostly likely differences as well. Orton’s familiarity with those differences, IMHO, are currently the deciding factor.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 18, 2010 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Current situation
I agree that as things stand, Orton has the advantage for this season. I do not consider Quinn to the better of the two at this moment, and if the season were to start today based on last season, I wouldn’t want Quinn behind center either. My only points in this debate are that I believe Quinn has a better upside due to his physical abilities, and if everyone were to give Quinn the same leeway coming into Denver that was given Orton last offseason, the perceived advantage Orton holds with the year in the system would be dismissed quickly.
Ultimately, I would like to see us draft some stud QB with a boatload of potential and without the necessity to unlearn a bunch of bad habits incurred from operating on teams with no surrounding talent or horrible offensive coaching. Enough with the damaged goods already.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Who said Orton had a subpar perfomance in Chicago ?
Only the haters say that stuff in hindsight now. The numbers were posted constantly showing how well Orton was playing last year before injuring himself . He did not have a subpar year …at least not for what he had to work with .
The only people treating Quinn differently are the haters . Suddenly Quinn is equal to Orton based on things that cannot even be named .
Why is it a perfectly good chance that Quinn will do anything ? There is no credible argument that you can make except that you dont like Kyle Orton to be making these sort of claims .
Orton showed up on our doorstep coming off basically a 3000 yard 18 td season and I say 3000 yards because he played in only 15 games .
So again we didnt pull Ortons expectations out of thin air and his production this year did not come out of no where . It was simply an improvement upon the year before .
The crazy part about this offseason is the selective amnesia by the Haters.
Last year the argument was that Orton could never put up any numbers and now this year the numbers are downplayed as being middle of the pack but if someone wouldve said last year that he would throw for 3800 yards over 7ypa and over 20 tds . We wouldve got several replies about no way could Orton do that he only throws to his running backs even though he wouldve only been throwing for 900 yards more than he did the year before .
But now we have these same detractors running to Quinns defense at every turn talking about how he could not only beat Orton out for the starting job before one practice but also match Ortons numbers from last year . Yet somehow the think Orton has people in his pocket ? LOL
I like Brady Quinn so Im not gonna bash him but hes right now hes a NOBODY that has a chance to prove he is not a bust . I believe he can and will but the ball is in his court but hes done absolutely nothing in his pro career for anyone to say anything about him other than he will have a chance to develop as a bronco.
No one has seen how good Quinn can be and I dont think anyone is saying that they have .
HOWEVER what we do know is that so far Quinn has not proven himself to be better than Kyle Orton in the NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE and until he does no one should be crying that he is . It doesnt mean he cant be but until he actually shows that hes more than a backup QB its an insult to anyone who wants an intelligent football discussion to be talking about them bot has they are on equal footing .
by Hoopforia on Mar 18, 2010 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
When an NFL QB only has 18 TDs in 15 games...
That is subpar. As is 21 TDs in 15 games.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
What would you
Consider par? The average is 9, he was in the top third of the NFL. To even average two TD’s a game you begin talking about Manning, Rodgers or Brees, which Orton is not. I consider anywhere from 20-25 TD’s a season a good season.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
Point of Correction, Max
The NFL average for TDs among the 32 starting QBs in 2009 was 19.7.
The NFL average for TDs among the 32 starting QBs in 2008 was 17.8
In 2009, Orton @ 21 was tied with Carson Palmer and Joe Flacco for 15th.
In 2008, @18, he was tied with Tyler Thigpen for 13th (both were ahead of Roethlisberger who went on to win the SB that year).
So, I’ll buy that in terms of TDs, Orton was in the top half of the league in both years. In fact he was pretty much dead in the middle of the pack, but still above the average.
By definition, par refers to an average, usual, or normal amount, degree, quality, condition, standard. So, Improv I would have a hard time endorsing the idea that Orton’s TDs in either year were “subpar.”
Were they what we would have liked to have seen? No. I’d like to have seen him throw for 30 TDs last year. That didn’t happen for a variety of reasons, including some poor throws, some sacks, and some interceptions.
The only thing we can say for certain is that Orton posted better statistics in 2009 in Denver than he had in 2008 in Chicago. That’s cold comfort given the 8-8 season record.
It is upon Orton to prove that he can continue to improve and can lead the offense (and by extension) the rest of the team to a better record. If he doesn’t, he’ll be replaced, and soon forgotten. If he does, he will deserve to be celebrated.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 18, 2010 10:35 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sorry
My data was for all QB’s, so the info needs adjusting, since we just included starters. My mistake.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
by Topher Doll on Mar 18, 2010 10:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Also
I would like to see 30 TD’s but that would be hard to do, only 4 quarterbacks did that this past seasons, and they are possibly the best in the league now in terms of skill or strength. I want that many, and it should have been higher than 21, hopefully this next season will see further growth.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
by Topher Doll on Mar 18, 2010 10:42 PM MDT up reply actions
However...
Orton’s 21 TDs required 541 attempts, placing him 20th in the NFL in TD% – one TD for every 26 attempts. Just for comparison with the two QBs you mentioned, Flacco – one TD for every 24, Palmer – one TD for every 22. All of them ranked in the bottom half of the NFL.
Even more glaring was the anemic TDs-to-Passing Yards. To put this in persepective, Cutler was derided for his huge yardage numbers and comparatively low TD numbers. Orton ratio last season was slightly worse than Cutler’s the year before.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Just out curiosity
Is there a site where you can find the TD/Attempt ratio, or did you work that out on your own? I’m not trying to be combative, I’m trying to build a list of helpful stats sites.
One point of correction on the TDs-to-Passing Yards statement:
According to NFL.com’s posted statistics:
In 2008, Cutler passed for 4526 yards & 25 TDs. That’s 181.04 yards per TD.
In 2009, Orton passed for 3802 yards & 21 TDs. That’s 181.047 yards per TD.
So while the case can be made that Orton’s ratio was “slightly” worse, I’m not sure that 7/1000th of a yard is particularly significant. For that matter, 4/100th of a yard is not a significant number either since it equates to roughly an inch or so.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 19, 2010 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Stat sites
http://sny.stats.com/fb/ is the site I go back to. It has the largest number of pre-ordered breakdowns I’ve found on a free site. Just like anywhere else, it gives a TD/attempt % – I just equated it out to actual attempts rather than an overall percentage.
I agree with the less-than-significant difference. I put the wrong word in italics. :-) Either way, neither of them lit up the Yards/TD payoff.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Thanks for the link & I totally agree:
neither of them lit up the Yards/TD payoff.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 19, 2010 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton impressed the hell out of me on 2009.
But then, I realized something that you doubters apparently, somehow, overlooked. Orton played the first few games with a compound (bone through the skin) dislocation of his index finger (the one that guides the football) on his throwing hand! And then, he played on a high ankle sprain the entire last half of the season.
Not to mention being in a radically different system with new players around him — not just to him but to each other.
And he still had decent numbers.
Are you guys ignoring these facts, or did you miss the entire season this last year?
Wow.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Low, low times when we're arguing over Quinn and Orton.....
man the late 90’s were fun. Makes you really value the times when your team has a special signal caller. One thing is for sure, Orton is the starter and should be better, but Quinn had better get ready at light speed cause Orton’s glass ankles arent gunna hold up all season. Im sad
I wish I had a time machine hot tub.
go back to the late 1990’s
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I couldn't agree more with your heading
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Can move out of the way
If everything else being equal. Quinn can move away from pressure and throw on the run. Orton falls down at the wind of a d-tackles hand swiping at him. Now I also think that Orton can be much better than he showed last year of the coach will actually let him throw the ball down the field a time or two a game.
Mobility is all great and everything...
But guys like P. Manning are about as bound to the pocket as anyone, and no one seems to care. Everyone complains about Orton’s mobility, but Manning’s mobility is something you never hear Colts fans complain about. They want a guy who can make the right read on the D… call the right play at the line…. and make a smart and accurate throw.
From what McD has said about Orton… those are all things that Kyle excels at….
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 19, 2010 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions
orton’s lack of mobility is frustrating, but nearly as frustrating as his complete inability to even sense the pressure. manning has pocket presence, orton does not
I've been reviewing the films of Orton's sacks
So far, in every case, he recognized the pressure and tried to move to avoid it. In some cases, he was left with nowhere to go — due to the pocket collapsing. In others, he did not display adequate balance to avoid being tripped up. In still others, he was able to successfully move away from it.
He’s not fast nor agile, but I think that it is an overgeneralization to say that he cannot sense pressure.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 20, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Morton has good mobility
That should have been obvious to everyone the last game of the season against KC. He ran right. He ran left. He stepped up in the pocket. He ran out of the grasp of two would-be sackers in the same play. See, he was recovering from his high ankle sprain.
It is just amazing to me that people can watch him play on a high ankle sprain, then come to the conclusion he has poor mobility. Just absolutely astounding! Go back and watch him when he played healthy. If you then come away still believing Kyle is immobile, it will be only because you want to believe it.
I’m not saying he is the second coming of Fran Tarkenton. But he is a whole lot more mobile that what he’s given credit for.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
A deep pass is something
Orton is completely capable of. In the KC game, he threw two passes that went more that 50 yards in the air. One was completed, and the other would have been, had the defender not interfered (which he was called for it). In the NE game, his Hail Mary pass at the end of the first half went 65 yards in the air. In the Redskins game, his two passes to Marshal went more than 50 yards in the air.
Count the assumption that Orton is not capable of the deep pass among the other fables people are puking up about him.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
I think you are right
Orton will be the starting QB as the new season unfolds….
A much more telling question is: WHO will be the starter when the season ends….
And on that point, I think there is general disagreement in Bronco-Land…
Part of me hopes that it is Orton because it means we are probably having a good season….but part of me also fears it may be soneone else
What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?
One Thing is Consistent!
theGreatGuessKowski; Nice post great job and good info. I totally agree with you McD is good on his word that he will select players who will help make the team better. I can see his vision at improving the team with players at every position. Having Quinn here to push Orton will make him that much better. I still believe Orton will finally realize his full potential this coming season and will lead the Broncos to their first play-off game[s] in 6 years. I further believe that Quinn will some day become the QB of the future for Denver. He has all the potential to bring a SB win. Can hardly wait to see our first training camp! Go Broncos.
oc60
Love the new name and the Rant
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
Nice rant Mr GuessKowski (aka HRU)
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
get used to the debate
forget the stats; Quinn was weighted down in Cle. Does anyone know T. Brady’s stats at Michigan? Wait, does anybody remember ever watching Brady at Michigan…..because I do.
It was Bama v Mich in a bowl game and that knucklehead L. Carr was bringing in his star recruit Henson as quick as possible. Mich was getting whipped and Carr was sticking with the run…..then it happened, he had to pass and this QB went nuts all over the field…..it was T. Brady.
B. Quinn in USC v ND showed the same poise and playmaking. He’ll be the QB and we’ll all be happy. I promise not to rub it in later down the road either.
like the post though
I saw Brady play
I remember during the draft that I couldnt figure out why Brady was falling so much. From watching Michigan you just knew that Brady was going to play in the NFL. Michigan QB’s usually have decent careers..
That Albama game was one of the greatest bowl games ever..
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
by johnnystarr on Mar 19, 2010 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions
I hope Quinn
Works out well, but college performance has turned out to be a poor way to judge player. It seems that mostly scouts look for specific skills or a smart player, because far to many quarterbacks enter the league having done well in college and struggle to do well here. But it should be remembered that Orton played very well at Purdue as well.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
by Topher Doll on Mar 19, 2010 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
I just hope for a Brees-like revival out of Quinn.
Brees showed flashes during his time in San Diego, but the change of scenery really let him become what he is now. His 2nd and 3rd years in the league, everyone was writing him off too. Let’s hope Quinn (or Orton) can follow a similar path in a new environment…
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
I don't rant about much...
but I have to put my trust in the McDaniels/Xanders regime because they make the decisions of who get’s cut, released, waived or plays. It sure as heck isn’t the MSM…
Orton is a BEAST!
just thought I would support someone else who has Orton’s back.
rec’d
My computer beat me at checkers, but I sure beat it at kickboxing.
Totally... your post the other day is what stirred this rant...
ORTON IS A BEAST!!!
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 19, 2010 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Quinn is more BEASTER
Ya know, I really don’t care as long as we win, but I enjoy tit for tat. Only because I’m rooting for players as well as the team……team comes first though and I don’t care who starts
by BideshiBronco on Mar 19, 2010 10:41 PM MDT up reply actions
fer shure
Amen. I am happy to a have backup who may not single-handedly lose games for us like our backup last year (wouldn’t it be fun to see what would’ve happened if we threw Brand-starter out there instead of Simms in the Skins game?), but I was not happy to see it be such a media-magnet player like Quinn, because if the team is struggling at all, REGARDLESS of whether KO has anything to do with there will be incessant rambling about giving Quinn a shot at starting. Even as far as potential and upside go, I think Orton is miles ahead. I am not at all convinced by those who say that we’ve seen enough of KO to know that he’ll be good, but not great, in the NFL. Frankly, I see no reason why KO can’t become one of the league’s top QBs. The things McD’s system demands from its quarterback are the things KO is good at. Although, ok, I admit, I do wish he was a little more mobile, but I’ll be excited to see him healthier and in better shape this year, and he’s got to be at least as mobile as Elway was in his late thirties for our SB wins.
Disclaimer: not that I know anything about football. But being from Montana I do know a little something about measuring a man by the strength of his neckbeard, and KO passes the eye test even out here in the boonies
Quinn
Frankly, I hope he never takes a in-game snap in a Bronco uniform besides in garbage time while we’re blowing out the Chiefs and Raiders.
Orton is not the guy.
First off the arm is weak and has very limited mobility. Orton is a not guy who can win you a game with his arm. He just can’t put that many points on the board. Orton is a guy who can manage a game but not win it.
Please define "weak arm"
AZDynamics referenced 5 separate plays in which Orton had passes that traveled 50 or more yards in the air.
Not an overwhelming number, but when you realize that among the 32 starters in 2009, the average number of pass plays that went 40 yards or more was 7.9, and Orton threw 9 of them, that hardly places him in the “weak arm” category. Especially if you stop to consider that his 9 put him ahead of Peyton Manning, Jay Cutler and Carson Palmer (3 supposedly strong armed QBs). Further, Orton was only 2 40+ plays behind Drew Brees, and 3 behind Philip Rivers, Eli Manning and Tom Brady.
Just saying.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Mar 20, 2010 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Thank you. Another point glossed over by Orton haters . . .
When Orton was a high school senior, i.e., not yet fully developed as a man, he won a passing contest against full-grown QBs, one of who was regarded as having a strong arm, in the name of John Kitna, who was starting for the Seattle Seahawks at the time.
Orton’s longest throw in that contest? 74 yards. Let me repeat that: seventy-four (74) yards. As a high school kid.
Those who say Orton has a weak arm are admitting they know nothing of him or are jut flat lying about it . . .
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
Wow... that's something I have never heard....
You certainly don’t here the announcers touting that around on sundays….
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 20, 2010 6:39 PM MDT up reply actions
Again
I said I measured it from where Orton let go of the ball to where Marshall caught it.
Again. You have to consider how far it goes across the field, as well as down the field.
Again. Orton has demonstrated his deep passing in more than just the Washington game, which you seem fixed on. There is the 65-yard (in the air) pass against NE. The two 50-yard (in the air) passes to Gaffney in the final KC game . . . both that were tightly contested.
Again. Orton as several other games he has thrown it deep.
Again. I had to do it . . . well, again.
Sheesh.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
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