In Rebuttal to Kyle Orton
by improv88 on Mar 19, 2010 8:51 PM MDT
197 comments
This began as a comment to "In Defense of Kyle Orton" by theGreatGuessKowski, but grew to such length that it had to become a post of its own. So before going any further, I highly recommend reading his post here. It is a very well-presented apologetics piece and is well worth your read. More after the jump.
The launching point for me was GGK’s comment:
"Most people stop at proficient... and never push through to the Master stage. Case in point... I can play guitar, but I am certainly no Jimmy Hendrix. Jimmy learned how to play guitar just like me.... only he practice and practiced to become a master... while I stopped once I learned "stairway to heaven"..."
I love the music analogy, but it doesn't go far enough to explaining what makes a great musician - or in this case, play-making football player. Through both my undergrad and graduate work in music schools it became apparent that there are three distinct versions of the MASTERY level in any discipline. I consider the PROFICIENCY stage to be irrelevant, since in the NFL or the concert stage, PROFICIENT doesn't get the job done.
The three distinctions I will describe in relation to musicians as:
1) The perfectionist
2) The elemental force
3) The virtuoso
The Perfectionist could be described as someone who works tirelessly to assimilate anything you put in front of them. They have developed understanding of the material (playbook terminology/musical notation), textbook technique (but still limited), and an unquestioned devotion to their craft. They put in more hours than anyone, determined that no one outwork them in their quest to perform flawlessly.
But their greatest strengths merely hide their greatest weaknesses. They frequently lack natural ability, making up for it by sheer work ethic. Their performances, while amazingly accurate, tend to be devoid of charm, interest or fire. They refuse to take a chance in fear that their perfection be sullied. In addition, everything around them must be in perfect order for them to hold to their pursuit of perfection. ANY deviation from the expected situation - an out-of-tune key, an unexpected noise during the performance - results in a drastic drop in performance quality. They simply do not possess the ability to rise above their surroundings. The higher art is always out of their reach.
The Elemental Force is exactly the opposite. Mercurial, exciting and charismatic. They possess immense natural talent. Many of these types have unbounded technique, capable of taking on anything sent to challenge them, but it is uncontrolled and erratic. They revel in difficult situations. Their emotions and desire to create the massive effect and wow everyone often outstrips their preparation level. The Elemental spends excessive time determining WHAT they are going to do without enough time spent determining how to do it.
The result is a performance that is often breathtaking. Even the failures are exciting and memorable since incredible chances were being taken. In multi-artist performances, the Elemental Force is always placed last on the program for two primary reasons: No one else can follow, and it send the audience home happy and thrilled. Over time, however, the Elemental begins to lose what control they had. The grand effect becomes the ONLY goal, and the technique suffers. Eventually even their fans cannot fully overlook their flaws.
Finally, the Virtuoso. As expected, the Virtuoso blends the two schools, but in unequal parts. They are not half Perfectionist, half Elemental. A true Virtuoso has at their disposal huge natural talent, a healthy ego (often too much so), technique to burn, and a devil-may-care attitude towards difficulties and challenges. Like Elementals, they salivate to show what they can do when things do not go perfectly according to plan (incidentally, this is also a primary difference between a Virtuoso and a Prima Donna). And no matter how many times they have played a piece or been in a situation, they are constantly taking chances for grand effect. The only aspect of the perfectionist that comes into play is the work ethic. A virtuoso does not let their performance suffer due to something as pitiful as neglect of the basics. However, the pursuit of perfection is secondary to the pursuit of a grand performance.
So where does that leave us with our friend Kyle Orton? He is a textbook Perfectionist. As mentioned by theGreatGuessKowski, Kyle has been diligent in adapting himself to what he is asked to do. He spends countless hours learning the X and O's portion of the job. It has been speculated by some here on MHR that he dedicated so much to the technical side of the equation that he neglected the physical training necessary for the job.
He is accurate on short routes. Checks down quickly, and takes great pains to not make mistakes. Through personality or coaching, he will unfailingly choose to punt and live to fight another day than take a low-percentage risk.
He exhibits decent arm-strength only when perfectly planted and throwing in textbook form - any deviation results drastic loss of velocity and accuracy. He does not take chances, perhaps too aware of his own limitations. He is accurate and effective only when his surroundings are perfect. If his offensive line, running game and receivers are not all playing at flawless levels at the same time, the results are likely to be disastrous. And when a play breaks down, his reactions are to either throw the ball away or take a sack. Work ethic can only make up for so much when certain natural abilities are lacking.
Hendrix was indeed a master. However, if he had been content to be a brilliant technician, no one would know his name today. He took chances, secure in the knowledge that his natural ability coupled with his lifetime of hard work would be sufficient - not all of which came off technically perfect - but the result is Rock n' Roll history and the status of a legend.
I would add one thing. In 15+ years of dealing with professional musicians, I have never once met a Virtuoso who started out as a Perfectionist. Work ethic can be learned. Temperament cannot.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Awesome Stuff....
I totally see your point… and although I think it might be a little too soon to simply classify Orton as simply a “perfectionist”… I would say that… at least at this point… he’s not quite a Virtuoso.
Thanks for the perspective… and the post!
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 19, 2010 10:15 PM MDT reply actions
Fantastic
A very good explanation of talent and work ethic. The idea that Kyle Orton is a bad QB is overblown. He is one of the best in the world at what he does, but he isn’t John Elway virtuoso. Those kind of talents are rare with only four or five QBs in the draft having the ability to put together all the necessary elements to become amazing. Cutler was Elmental, Orton is a perfectionist.
I agree.... Cutler was Ele- "mental"
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 19, 2010 10:24 PM MDT up reply actions
I appreciate your post
It is clearly well thought out and presented in an excellent and easy to read manner.
I agree with virtually all of your points.
The only disagreement I would have would be with this generalized statement:
And when a play breaks down, his reactions are to either throw the ball away or take a sack.
I can give you at least two examples where this statement does not hold up: both of Orton’s ankle injuries (08 in Chi & 09 in Den) came on broken plays where the receivers were too well covered to be thrown to, and the pass protection broke down too quickly to allow adjustments. In both instances, Orton was able to pull the ball down and take off running. In both cases he was able to get back to the line of scrimmage to avoid the sack. I suspect that careful film review would find additional examples.
Other than that one point, an excellent article.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Game 5 - against NE
There were numerous occasions Kyle beautifully extended a ‘broken’ play. I just watched the whole game again Thursday as it is one of the few I have recorded. I can’t name particular instances, I’ve obviously slept since then, but I remember one being on a 3rd down and instead of waiting in the pocket as the play was seemingly designed, he saw the hint of pressure pre-snap, and almost immediately broke out of the pocket that didn’t quite form and found Scheff for a first down (it may have been Eddie, Eddie was very active in that game and caught a lot of crucial passes). Anyway, there’s another good example where Kyle was about as close to 100% as he was the whole season (that and week 6).
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Mar 20, 2010 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Good argument....we'll written for sure
BUT…Im still not buying into Kyle’s greatness? I frankly think Quinn has more talent and upside. I believe it will be unveiled in weeks and months to come. But for the purposes of this debate….I would say Kyle is very proficient, practical, with great utility. He would make a fantastic #2 on any NFL team. And…you al saw where Denver has worked out Tony Pike….this issue is far from settled. But I really like Kyle here in Denver…But I hope Brady and Kyle make us better….No matter who gets the nod! Im all about TEAM…
"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM
Kyle Orton
I think the premise is that Kyle is great because he is one of only 32 others to start at QB in the NFL. Greatness is a relative term that relates to the ability that Orton has that none of us possess not necessarily to his HOF prospects.
Other than Kolb in Philly, I can’t think of a number two QB that I would take over Orton right now. In fact I would venture that Orton is a better QB than eight or nine starting QBs, so Orton could very well be one of 20.
I hope that Kyle or Quinn is successful here in Denver, but I think our defense is a bigger concern than the QB right now. I like the Jamal Williams signing, but I don’t really see our line being that much better than it was last year. Our linebackers are middle of the road and our secondary and defensive line are older than I am comfortable with. Kyle didn’t lose any games last year (I don’t remember any, but I’m probably wrong), but our defense sure did
Starting QB Groupings
Starting QB’s that Kyle Orton is better than: Leinart, T Edwards/Brohm, M Moore, Delhomme, Henne, J Russell, A Smith, Hasselbeck, Knoll/Boller, Freeman, V Young
Starting QB’s that KO is on par with: M Ryan, Flacco, Cutler, C Palmer, Stafford, Garrard, Cassell, E Manning, Sanchez, J Campbell
Starting QB’s that are better than KO: Romo, Rodgers, Schaub, P Manning, Favre, Brady, Brees, McNabb, Roethlisberger, Rivers
IMO, there are 10 starting QB’s that are better than KO, 10 more who are about even with KO, and 11 starting QB’s who Orton is better than right now. Could we do better at the starting QB position? Of course but we could also do quite a bit worse as well. I’m not sure if KO will ever break into the top 10 but I believe he will continue to improve as a QB and has a shot of doing just that later in his career.
I definitely believe he is a starting calibur QB in this league, unlike some who claim he’s just a backup at best. If there are 7-10 teams who would happily take KO as an upgrade over their current starters than it’s hard to argue that he’s not a starting calibur QB. Not to mention the fact that he IS a starting QB in this league, and pretty much has been during his entire career.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein
I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone claim that Orton is "great"
What I have seen, and what I have defended, is the position that he is not as bad as his detractors have made him out to be.
Also, that based on his stats from each of the years where he has been the primary starter, Orton has shown improvement every single time, which would appear to be at odds with all of those who claim he is at his peak. If his stats don’t shown an improvement in 2010, then I would be willing to not be as adamant about that point.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Orton is great
There, now you’ve seen it.
LoL
Seriously, the point is, we can’t say after one season in an optimal environment that he is or isn’t great. It looks to me personally, that he has more than just the potential to be great. I just hope I have the opportunity to feel that “I told you so” feeling on this one….. Not that I would actually boast like that, but if Kyle led us to a SB, or even just the playoffs this season, I will definitely have that feeling. ( =
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Mar 20, 2010 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions
It's a T.E.A.M sport
Both arguments well thought out. However, the examples are both based on individual performances. Winning games in football require team work. So weather you’re perfectionist, elemental force or The virtuoso won’t make a difference because it’s a team sport. No matter how great an effort by one individual e.g. QB who throws for 500 yards and 4 TD’s and still loses because he couldn’t over come the errors from the other 21 players on the team. So that is why leadership is the key to winning in a team sports. “Together Everyone Accomplishes More”
Orton’s leadership traits go way back to college as does Quinn’s the player who can lead by example and get the team to play at or above their talent level is the QB who will win the starting job for next season. Elway brought the best out of each player[s]. I give Orton credit for displaying his ability as a leader first while still learning the new McD system. Can’t wait to see where it takes him and the Broncos. May the best man win Go Broncos!
Thanks to; theGreatGuessKowski & improv88; for providing great reading material.
oc60
by oc60 on Mar 19, 2010 10:52 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
I was going to say the same thing
excellent analogy and nice addition to the conversation improv. Thoroughly enjoyed reading this, word for word.
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 19, 2010 11:35 PM MDT up reply actions
It's not a T.E.A.M. sport.
It’ a team sport in one aspect only, that there are more then one player on the field working together. Otherwise, it’s an individual sport. Each player must do their part on the field.
It’s an individual sport playing together as a team. A team will NEVER become a great team unless each individual becomes a great player, or for a QB, become a “Virtuoso”, then the team becomes great because of each of those individuals playing at a high level.
I rather have eleven Elvis, eleven Champ, or eleven Dawkins type of individual players doing their part on the field, then have a team oriented version of 2008 defense, without any one individual standout.
What I’m trying to say is team sport is only as good as each individual on that team. I rather have 52 pro-bowl players (how many on a team these days?) on my team doing their part on the field, then have 52 average players that plays well together as a team.
by Negative Nelly? on Mar 20, 2010 3:35 AM MDT up reply actions
Wait a minute
Are you really saying that you would rather have 52 pro bowl calibur players on your team than 52 average players?
Brilliant!
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein
Team sport?
Then why are folks always talking about the QB’s W-L record?
You never hear anyone discussing a WR’s W-L record, or DB or OT, but you always always always have NFL people referring to the QB’s W-L record.
Like it or not, the NFL is a team sport for everyone other than the QB and Coach. The QB and Coach have a heavier burden to carry.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Mar 20, 2010 6:40 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
There are a few situations where they will go into how much another player has won
It isn’t often this happens, but there is at least one recent example. In the talk about whether or not we should keep Marshall, I have heard multiple times the argument that we shouldn’t keep him because we haven’t gotten to the playoffs with him. Why that would be his fault, I don’t know, but the argument has been made.
But you are spot on about the W-L records!
That line of thinking would then be reason to get rid of DOOM and Clady as well
I know we are in agreement on this topic, just wanted to reiterate how stupid that logic really is.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein
Another rec for you
Well said.
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Mar 20, 2010 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions
From a fellow musician...
I like your breakdown of the three types of musicians and the parallels between solo musicians and football players. And I would agree that, in your depiction, Kyle Orton would be closest to a perfectionist.
But, the main distinction between football and solo musicianship is that music is an individual expressive art. The goal of successful solo musicians is to communicate through the music, and to do so in a very personal way. The goal of successful football players is to know their specific role within a much larger framework, and then to excel in that role. So football players are more like craftsmen in their approach to the game than like artists. Of course, if there is a position that comes closest to artist it is the QB. But even so, the QB’s goal isn’t to express themselves, it is to win a competition.
So, the perfectionist, in your above musical example, doesn’t truly express through their music. Rather, they are far more concerned with the craft of the music than with the art. I would argue, however, that there is indeed a place for such musicians- symphonies. I have many fellow musicians who, when I went to school with them, I disrespected for the very same reasons you gave. However, as they matured and continued honing their craft, they began to excel in a specific type of role- orchestral musician. Obviously these people had a large amount of natural musical talent, but in practice they measured up exactly as you mentioned- they rarely were picked to be featured in solo concerts, their small ensemble work was rather meh, but their accuracy and consistency were truly outstanding, and these are the exact qualities demanded of players in orchestral string sections. So, even in music, there is absolutely a place for the craftsman, for the perfectionist.
But, doesn’t the description of a section string player sound suspiciously like that of a football player? Knowing one’s specific role within a larger context and then executing that role to perfection?
I really like your post and rec’d it for its thought provokation, but I have to disagree with your conclusion. This parallel, between musicians and football players, is appropriate only to a point. I think the role of craftsman (as I like to put it) or perfectionist (as you put it above) is one that can be very important in music, but is everything in football. There is certainly an argument to be made that Kyle Orton will never truly master his craft, and he may not have enough natural talent or athleticism, but to me it is certainly possible to for him to master his craft as a ‘craftsman’ football player.
by MGM on Mar 20, 2010 12:13 AM MDT reply actions 8 recs
Just to add an example
and sticking with your terms, if Elway started as an elemental force and then matured into a virtuoso, wouldn’t you have to say that Manning is a perfectionist, who is now become a virtuoso? Granted he has immense physical talents, but his excellence in his craft is his incredible level of understanding/ awareness as well as an incredible technical proficiency which came through intense study and work habits developed over many years. Sounds like a perfectionist, and not a whole lot different than Orton in his approach (although obviously different in his physical tools).
Elway & Manning.
Elway is a dead ringer for the “Elemental Force”. Until Shanahan coached and nurtured him into a “Virtuoso”, Elway stayed the “Elemental Force” for a very long time.
Manning had both “Elemental” and “Perfectionist” coming out of college. He just didn’t reach the “Virtuoso” until later in the NFL. It’s like a person lifting weights, you get stronger and stronger everyday until one day you reach your “Virtuoso”. That was Manning, he became better and better on both aspects until one day when they came together and became a “Virtuoso”.
by Negative Nelly? on Mar 20, 2010 3:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Symphony musicians
Thanks for the feedback. You hit the aspect I managed to leave out – where each type excels. I have to disagree to a point though concerning the importance of a craftsman. Just like you said, the Perfectionist excels within a large group like an orchestral string section where (as with, say, a 2nd violinist) the objective to play the exact same music as 14 other people, using identical phrasing, articulation and timing. The goal is to sound like one instrument. While football is a team sport, it is not 11 guys all doing the same thing. There is only area I think this line of thinking holds for – the O-line.
Another area the Perfectionist frequently excels at is as a studio musician. Studio musician are usually very specialized in their field, are rarely asked to be creative, but have the pressure of getting one or two chances to play and record something correctly. In football, this is the definition of the Kicker.
Your mention of the small ensemble is what reminds me most of the NFL. Great ensemble players have the stress of playing smoothly within a group, being required to carry their part on their own with incredible skill and artistry while still working with those around them to create a great whole. That said, in small ensembles, there are still parts that are more important – artistically and in leadership – than others. There are parts in small ensembles that a Perfectionist/craftsman can fit, but 1st violin generally isn’t one of them.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
I think we basically agree...
on the general types of musicians and their roles – although having done some studio work, some of it is actually quite creative, depending on the needs of the composer. For example, I’ve walked into studio gigs and had the composer play me a progression, and then for the next two hours worked on layering various lines of counterpoint, all from my playing… and none of it was composed beforehand, it was all done on the spot as a collaboration. So, there definitely can be creativity involved in that process.
But, as far as the analogy of small ensemble playing, I actually think that basketball is a far better analogy for small ensemble work than football. Basketball involves the same kind of intuitive group awareness, ability to improvise, and individual expression as chamber music or jazz. Unlike football, basketball players do actually express themselves much more personally (and are strongly encouraged to do so) than football players. Obviously they must fit within a framework, but there is much more fluidity and improvisation in basketball than in football. Actually, to me, basketball is the jazz of the sports world, and football is the military band (or symphony).
And just to enlarge the symphony analogy a bit further, you were absolutely correct to point out that string players (as perfectionists in a musical setting) are trying to blend with many others playing the same parts, rather than complementing 10 other people playing diffreent parts. This is certainly different from football players. But, what about the wind section? Each individual player is certainly asked to express more individually than string players since they are essentially soloists at various times, but they are still playing within an orchestra and their accuracy and ability to fit within the framework are paramount. They each have specific roles which they are asked to carry out with incredible accuracy, while also matching those around them and conforming to a larger structure. There are moments when they shine individually (like, say, after a WR catches a ball and turns upfield- this is his moment and he is going to make the most of it) but the majority of time is spent blending, matching, and following the structure. And again, there are certainly places for perfectionists in orchestral wind sections.
One last point- I would argue that both Tom Brady and Matt Cassel started out as perfectionists, but then McD got a hold of them and turned them into virtuosi (or at least he did with Brady). So, again, I do think it is possible to begin as a perfectionist and advance to a virtuoso.
And, in case you’re curious, I was definitely NOT a perfectionist in my school days. I was certainly the elemental force, before proper teaching and years of hard work (and quite frankly an attitude adjustment) allowed me to become “virtuoso”.
by MGM on Mar 20, 2010 9:00 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
And Tom Brady is
half perfectionist, half elemental force. He isn’t the Virtuoso, though, even though he gets billed to be because his TEAM won three SB’s.
Brilliant analysis!!! This is why I'm very upset with McD.
This is one of the best post I have read in a long time. Thanks for the great analysis of talent.
Talent is often very hard to recognize and where it comes from for each individual. If you’re a coach, mentor, boss, teacher, etc. one of the most important aspect of improving a person/player is to understand how they function. Also, understanding who they are and how they learn is key to making that person become the best they can be.
I totally agree with you about Kyle Orton being the “Perfectionist”. Kyle has a ceiling and that ceiling is not very high. For that reason, I was very upset with McD for trading Cutler, who was the “Elemental Force”.
Kyle Orton is the product of a great defense and a good team that surrounds him. He can never become that “Virtuoso” person that can lift a team to victory on his own shoulders.
I believe the “Perfectionist” can never become the “Virtuoso”, but the “Elemental Force” can become one with good coaching and nurturing.
Yes, Cutler was a diva but that was part of who he was, but he would have been an awesome “Virtuoso”.
by Negative Nelly? on Mar 20, 2010 2:45 AM MDT reply actions
as another musician,
be aware of improv88’s distinction between virtuoso and prima donna. cutler would fall in the the latter category, not the former.
musicians with attitudes like cutler’s tend not to progress very well. they tend to be the kind of players that are billed and “having all the natural talent in the world” but never seem to live up to it in a pressure situation. sound familiar?
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 7:18 AM MDT up reply actions
You need to redirect your blame
from McD to Pat Bowlen. We’ve beaten this thing to death several times already.
Since Cutler did not return the owner’s calls, he told McD (who he just hired 2 months earlier) to figure out a trade deal and ship Cutler out of town. All McD did was do what he was told in a new job he has dreamed about attaining since he was a kid. Basically, if I was in his shoes, I would’ve done the same thing, because no player is above a team or its owner. End of story.
As to another comment I saw you post, it explains your position very well. You stated you want 52 pro bowlers on your team. That’s a nice pipe dream, but speaks volumes about why you’re so angry. A team is lucky to have as many as 5 out of 53 players that are pro-bowlers, so your vision is not based in reality, which is why I think you will always be disappointed. If divas won championships, TO would have a few rings by now. So pure talent alone won’t get the job done and sacrificing the locker room to make 1 or 2 divas happy will only set the team back from achieving their goal.
You need to decide something very important, now that Cutler is gone: are you a Broncos fan or do you want to switch to being a Bears fan? Because Cutler is not coming back.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
by Horsepower on Mar 20, 2010 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
Thank you
Even when someone points out basic facts, some people just either ignore them, or have convinced themselves so wholly, in their own heads, of their own version (dimension?) of reality – like political ‘opinions’ kind of….
Some people just don’t understand that it wasn’t Josh who made the overall decision to trade Jay, it was Pat. And for very legitimate reasoning, I might add.
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Mar 20, 2010 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Question for Nelly:
Looking at this quote:
Kyle has a ceiling and that ceiling is not very high.
Upon what are you basing that statement?
As yet, we do not know where Orton’s ceiling lies. Look at his stats from the 3 years that he has been the primary starter for a team:
Comp %: 51.6 to 58.5 to 62.1
Yards: 1869 to 2972 to 3802
YPA: 5.1 to 6.4 to 7.0
YPG: 124.6 to 198.1 to 237.6
TD: 9 to 18 to 21
Int: 13 to 12 to 12
20+ Plays: 23 to 34 to 43
40+ Plays: 3 to 3 to 9
Rating: 59.7 to 79.6 to 86.8
His stats have improved every year that he has been the primary starter. Until his statistics plateau or decline, there is no way of knowing just where his ceiling lies.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by BShrout on Mar 20, 2010 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Excellent and valid question
I wonder if we can expect a response?
And thank you for pointing those facts out again, obviously, some fellow Bronco fans have still yet to realize….
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Mar 20, 2010 10:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein
by c_style on Mar 23, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
BOOOO
I love Kyle as our QB and I rout for him 100%. Which is why your argument is so frustrating, because it is the FIRST I have read since we retrieved him from Chicago that explains why he might not be our next Super Bowl MVP in a manner I find convincing. Damn you for popping my bubble! All I hope is that up to this point he hasn’t received the kind of training needed to become an elemental force, but is on his way with Mc(whatever)’s training and guidance
One thing I want to point out though. In the league, I would say there are probably around 6 virtuosos: Brady, Brees, Manning P, Favre, McNabb, and Rivers(shudder). Elemental Forces: Rodgers, Cutler(double shudder), Manning E, Romo, Kubiak Schaub, Roethlisberger w/ fries, and Palmer. That leaves 19 “Perfectionist” starting QBs out there. And to say they are all the same is crazy(not to say you are). But a top notch perfectionist, like Orton, Matt Ryan, or Matt Hasselbeck is not the same as a Jamarcus, Edwards, or Alex Smith. And unless I’m prepared to gamble on having a low quality “perfectionist,” I am completely prepared on and happy with a hard working, butt busting one like Orton.
by BroadwayBroncoFan on Mar 20, 2010 4:29 AM MDT reply actions
Good post Improv...
I am a coach, and I dont believe in NATURAL talent….its frankly a crock.
Athletes, musicians, business men etc need 10000 hours of elite practice and immersion in their field of choice just to become ELITE. Other factors such as environment, good teaching/coaching/ mentoring are also needed to ACCELERATE the journey towards elitism.
Factor in the subjects work ethic, work patterns, learning styles and learning habits is what makes someone great.
It has NOTHING to do with someone being more “talented” than someone else.
Joe Montana for example, could not run as fast as most QB;s. did not have a rocket arm and was an average athlete, yet is probably the greatest of all time.
The reason: great environment, great coaching, great work ethic, lots of mileage as a starter in college and the NFL, Sounds suspiciously like all the great QB’s.
This is the major reason I scoff at all this Orton has reached his ceiling bull crap. He is finally in an great environment, getting plenty of reps, great coaching. He has great coaching, great work ethic. He is in a place to succeed. Thats also why I have high hopes for Quinn as well. Plus, these guys had elite coaching at college as well. But in the pros. they had HORRENDOUS coaching that stifled the development of both these gentlemen.
Check out a book called TALENT IS OVER RATED by JEFF COLVIN. It is a fascinating read, and well worth it as it could help many understand about elite performers.
Thats why I hold out little hope for Jay Cutler is because I dont believe Chicago is a environment that will develop him into an elite performer.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Mar 20, 2010 5:16 AM MDT up reply actions 13 recs
Nice Boyd
I was going to post this same thing. Outliers one of the books by Malcolm Gladwell does a great job proving exactly what you’ve just said.
I do have to take one exception though, John Elway is the greatest of all time there is no doubt about that. :)
by Fan in Exile on Mar 20, 2010 6:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Totally Agree Boydy...Rec' your comment.
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
by BroncoSense72 on Mar 20, 2010 6:45 AM MDT up reply actions
Great point & rec'd
Overall I think that this is spot on and agree that natural talent is thrown around too often which undermines how much these athletes work on becoming what they are. That being said, I would like to add that some people are born with more natural talent than others. That doesn’t mean they will have the work ethic, drive, and circumstances that allow them to acheive greatness, but natural talent does exist. Some people are born with great athletic abilities (fast, muscular, competitive), others with great reflexes(hand-eye coordination), these talents lend themselves to athletics. They still need to work their butts off at their craft to become elite but it still comes easier for them than others.
One final example to assist with my point (keeping with the music theme): if natural talent is a crock, how would you explain Mozart’s ability to compose and perform music in front of European Royalty at the tender age of 5? I’m pretty sure Mozart hadn’t put in 10,000 hours composing music by age five. Seems like Mozart had natural talent to me. Again, he still needed to work to become what he became, but his natural talent was evident.
We all have nautural talents in varoius fields/ways. We also all have the ability to master crafts that don’t come naturally to us. The truely elite however, usually had natural talent and devoted their time and life to honing their god given skills.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Once we accept our limits, we go beyond them. - Albert Einstein
Number of perfectionists
I would have to say that I don’t think there are that many Perfectionists in the NFL, simply because there aren’t that many QBs who have reached the MASTERY level that GuessKowski outlined. They are stuck on on the PROFICIENT level, which pretty much assures them that they will never have great success. Or, in the case of Jabba the Hut, they’re stuck doing rudimentary exercises.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
A great read improv...Lots of talent on this site...Rec'd
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
My hat is off
to both Improv and theGreatGuessKowski! Your two posts were amazing and are why the MHR is the best. What exactly made Jimi Hendrix the legend he is today? Was it Hendrix’s ability to play guitar or was it his ability to create and compose music. Even in the 60s there were many great guitar players that were bursting onto the scene of rock music. Imo, what made Hendix into a legend is what was going on in his head and his ability to create. There were no truely great..players of instruments..in the Beatles, yet they were simply the greatest band ever. What makes a Joe Montana or a Peyton Manning into great quarterbacks? Is it their ability to throw the ball farther, run faster, or be the most physically gifted player? It allways comes down to what’s going on above the shoulder pads…it’s the difference maker. Doesn’t matter whether we’re talking about Jimi Hendrix or a Peyton Manning. Again great posts guys and rec’d.
hendrix, like miles davis,
was great because he had all the technique and proficiency, but knew when it was better to play just one note. it is his judgement in application of his mastered technique that made him unique and great.
one natural ability that separated orton from other QBs and often goes unnoticed is his FANTASTIC decision-making. orton has the arm to air it out and make risky deep throws like cutler (okay, not just like cutler because he has the strongest arm in the league — but orton is strong enough) often does, but knows that it’s better to make the shorter completion and not risk an interception. it is this self-awareness that makes miles davis the greatest improviser of all time and will make orton a great quarterback.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 7:27 AM MDT up reply actions
orton has many natural talents that get written off as hard work.
his decision-making, as i just said above, is the most obvious choice.
his ability to lead and motivate a team is another. a pure perfectionist could not inspire his teammates to new heights the way orton does, and would not command the respect of his teammates because they would not respect him for the lack of sufficient natural talent. if the cues that are coming from his teammates and coaches are any indication, they think orton’s the real deal.
his aptitude for picking up complex systems quickly (as McD has praised many times in the media) is also a natural talent that was developed with hard work, not just the product of work and no innate predisposition.
I would say that you’re looking at this from the wrong angle. Anyone can lift weights and get stronger and throw a ball farther (like anyone can practice scales and arpeggios and learn to physically plan notes on their instruments faster), but certain people will just never be able to think fast enough to execute with the precision and control that it takes to be a top level jazz musician or to be a quarterback in the NFL.
Orton has the mental ability. in terms of intellect, he is an elemental force. he does not make mistakes and is capable improving immensely in the future.
I am a musician as well. I am a jazz saxophone player who studies with Gary Thomas (for any serious jazz fans out there, this is not to name drop, but I think it’s really friggin’ cool that i get to do that!) weekly. coming into my undergrad I was billed by my teachers as an “elemental force” type, an unrefined player with a lot of potential, but few of the physical skills to realize it. The reason I was billed as such was for my ability to think musically at a fairly high level more quickly than many — not because i was already to play all of my scales faster than anyone else. Many of my peers (and other very knowledgeable relative experts) didn’t recognize what I was bringing to the table mentally because i did not have sufficient control of my instrument physically to convey what i was thinking, but an expert in his field who is superior evaluator of talent, like gary was able to see the potential in me.
In a fairly short amount of time, I was able to (with better coaching from Gary) practice better and overcome my physical shortcomings (i’m now fairly strong technically). This took a year or two for the first rapid improvements to take place, and now I’m widely regarded as a much better player with much more potential than i was when i first arrived at conservatory.
I think we will see similar improvements from kyle orton this year. It wasn’t until the summer after my freshman year that i was able to really work on my technique and apply al that i had learned during my first whirlwind year in a new place, under a new teacher. I made a TON of progress during that summer break — my “offseason”, if you will. I believe we will see similar marked improvement from orton in his first offseason after a year with a new coach who is a superior evaluator of talent and an expert in his field.
McD sees orton as a superior talent because of his mental abilities and knows that his physical attributes can be coached up. this is the same reason why he saw cutler as being of marginal potential, because his arm strength and physical technique could not get much better but he was lacking in the decision-making-department. It should be fun to see some great things from orton this year.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 8:03 AM MDT reply actions 4 recs
wow... that was longer than i though it would be.
i’m gonna repost that as another fanpost… just a sec.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 8:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Another GREAT comment and rec'd as well...Lots of good input on this subject...
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
by BroncoSense72 on Mar 20, 2010 8:34 AM MDT up reply actions
You're forgetting one rather important detail
McD did not seek out Kyle Orton. He didn’t come into Denver with the mindset, “The first thing I need to do is see if I can get Kyle Orton out of Chicago at any cost.” Orton was essentially a toss-in within a deal in which he was the best of the available candidates from the potential trade partners.
It’s good to see other musicians chiming in on this, but you actually backed up my premise more than argued against with your own situation. You were an Elemental force coming into college (so was I). You already had the fire and innate musicality. With good teaching, you then applied technique and control to that list. That is my point – Elemental-types can always learn technique (decision-making) and control if they are willing to do so. Perfectionists cannot be taught innate ability or temperament – it will always come off as forced or fake.
I also could not agree less with your take on McD’s assessment of Cutler. In fact, if McD’s view of Cutler actually matched what you suggest, I submit that he isn’t much of a QB guru at all. I consider Shanahan to know more about the QB position than McDaniels – I’ll stick with his view. Cutler has unlimited potential, possibly more than any QB in the NFL. The only question is whether or not he will commit himself to the tutelage and time required to harness that billion-volt potential. His last two games of last season says to me that he can and likely will.
I also don’t see Orton as a tremendous decision maker. His completion pct is not elite, and his good decision making appears to consist of simply making the safest throw at all times, whether or not it actually results in anything. Brian Griese was one of the smartest QBs to play the game, but his physical limitations and cautious mentality kept him from ever reaching any sustained level of success.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
by improv88 on Mar 20, 2010 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Major distinction
Again, I have to disagree with your assertion, simply because of the nature of football vs. music. The most characteristic feature of a musical elemental force is their power of expression. This cannot be taught, at any level, at any time, or in any art. Certain people simply have an ability to communicate themselves artistically, and those who don’t quickly learn this fact. Perfectionists are simply musicians who realize that their expressive level is not elite, so they therefore compensate with incredible work and accuracy.
But, football is not about art. It is not about individual expression. It is about 11 guys trying to cross a white chalk line, while keeping the other 11 guys from the same. Although there are many parallels, I think the very definition of perfectionist vs elemental force is based around an ability (expression) that is simply not relevant in football. So, without expression as a goal, the perfectionists will always excel- in music and elsewhere.
the theory that i'm putting forth is about
mental power and accuracy, especially in pressure situations and when things aren’t working around you. this is applicable to nearly anything and is a measure of success in nearly any field, music and quarterbacking included.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions
exactly
The areas where Cutler is extremely weak and why he wasn’t wanted by McD in Denver. After watching Cutler do his 16 game impersonation of Rex Grossman in 2009, it’s easy to understand why McD didn’t believe he was the answer for the Broncos.
Individual expression
I agree 100% that football is not about individual expression (T.O.? OchoCinco?) But one place that the two overlap is that the best musical virtuosos and the best football players, at any position, always elevate the material they are working with. A great virtuoso musician will find things in the music that others have missed, and in doing so, raise the level of the music itself to areas that most people didn’t know existed.
A great QB will find things in the offense (or areas of weakness in the opposing defense) that others have missed. They raise the level of play of their surrounding cast through any means necessary, but most frequently by raising their own level of play to a point that those around them must strive to keep up.
What you are referring to in a musician as “expressive level”, I would apply to a football player as that rare ability to step up and take over a game, imposing their will on the game and the opposing team much as a musician would on a piece of music.
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Still sounds like individual expression...
The ability to step up and take over a game, or to “impose their will” is essentially a form of individual expression. We definitely agree on that. But, I would say that it is when a QB tries to “impose his will” that bad things happen- i.e. cutler. The best QBs flow through the offense, take what the defense gives them, and quite specifically DON’T try to take over the game. When they try to express themselves individually, when they have an “I’m going to make this happen!” moment, that is when they throw the big pick, or miss the defensive shift, or are otherwise less attuned to the whole, and too tuned into themselves.
As a musician, it’s the difference between “eyes open” and “eyes closed” playing. When I am playing solo, I almost always close my eyes in order to better tuned into the internal music I am creating, and with my own expression. But, if I am playing chamber music, or in an orchestra, and close my eyes, bad things happen. I am less aware of my surroundings, I am less attuned to the other people, etc. This, to me, is what happens when a QB tries to “impose their will” on a defense- they essentially close their eyes. It becomes about them, and their individual expression instead of the needs of the team. And they don’t succeed until they can play with “eyes open”.
by MGM on Mar 20, 2010 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
QB's, like jazz musicians
have to be attuned to “eyes open” and “eyes closed” playing all the time. elite jazz musicians must be attuned to the harmonic and rhythmic landscape of a tune (like the length width and height of a football field), as well as their place within this area. they also need to be aware of what the other players around them are doing whether there is a predetermined figure (like from a playbook) or it’s just improvised. if someone in the rhythm section drops a beat or misses a chord change (OL missing an assignment) the soloist needs to react appropriately to keep the tune (play) from falling apart to a catastrophic end.
all of this must occur while attempting to express oneself by executing your own part to perfection. whether the particular part you are playing at the time is predetermined or improvised. and improvisation is much like reading a defense. it’s all about making decisions that are an appropriate reaction to what is going on around you. chords in jazz are often made up of 5-7 notes. so you have many options (like recievers, although a Qb can only have 5) to go to.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Probably the best analogy of the thread
And it would be insane if a QB had more than 5. The NFL would have to institute a playground “1-alligator, 2-alligator…” count just to allow them to go through the progression.
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thanks improv88
and others.
I just want to say that it’s been an absolute pleasure to have such an deep philosophical and intellectual discussion about two of my favorite things, music and broncos football.
It really speaks to the greatness of MHR that we can have an open and respectful discussion like this.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:44 AM MDT up reply actions
+10000
Absolutely, this has been a true pleasure. And it’s great to see the other trained musicians in the MHR community. Bailey- I take it you’re at Peabody?
that is correct.
I’m in my sophomore year here. what’s your story, MGM?
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions
I'm a cellist
went to Eastman for undergrad (class of 04), and I live/ freelance in NYC now. Great stuff to be able to find other musicians who are as into the Broncos as I am!
yeah, it's not easy to find a ton of musicians who are real football fans.
i’m actually from Westchester county, originally and my family still lives there. let me know when you’re playing around NYC (especially during the summer because i’ll be around more). I’d love to hear you play sometime.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:02 AM MDT up reply actions
absolutely
we should try to get a little musicians from MHR group together. Improv- where are you based?
I'm banished to Brooklyn, CT (eastern CT)
Undergrad at UW (Theory, piano), graduate at Northern Colorado (Theory/Comp)
Eastman trained cellist…There’s some good company.
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University of Wisconsin Madison?
I did a fellowship out there for 2 years, played with Madison Symph, etc. If that’s the UW you mean, that’s awesome- Madison is a great place.
University of Washington
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
I've heard that Madison is awesome
Did some preliminary snooping when I was thinking about going for a D.M., but have never visited there.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Had no idea there were so many great musicians on this site!
Depth and men of the world. Love it. I teach junior high, elementary, and high school band, but my degree is in composition. THis has been a thrill of a discussion to read.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Agreed- quite the discussion
MHR musicians unite! Never knew there were this many trained musicians/ teachers on MHR
Heard great things about that UW too
But have never been there. Oh well, but it really is great to hear your thoughts, and this has been quite the discussion
Except that it's not improvised...
I agree that there are certain similar qualities between Jazzers and QBs, but again the goal is different. I hate to keep repeating the same point, but in essence it’s like saying you want to be noticed. The best musicians want to be noticed individually for their expression (in solo playing). The best QBs DON’T want to be noticed- they simply want to execute. And
Also, a QBs reads and progressions are not truly improvised- he has a set order of reads in a particular order for a given play, and it is up to the QB to make the best decision based on the defense he sees. So it is about information processing and decision making, but not truly improvising. Musicians, on the other hand, may be somewhat limited in their improvising based on the limits of the harmonic/ rhythmic structure, but within that system they are free to express.
It’s like a haiku- the system may be rigid but the words and the expression is up to the artist. There is no “wrong way” within the sytem, simply an uncommunicative, or inexpressive one one. There is, however a “wrong way” to QB- as well as a right way based on the non-improvised system of specific reads and reactions that are developed over many years.
An inherent issue
The QB is noticed, regardless. In fact, if a QB is not being noticed, it’s because they aren’t doing anything at all. I present Trent Dilfer. He played within the system given to him, won a Super Bowl, and yet was so much of a non-entity that he was replaced as soon as possible.
I agree that reads and progressions are not improvised. However, if all surrounding variables work perfectly (blocking, blitz pick-up, correct routes), I would go as far as to say that there isn’t a QB in the league who cannot operate at All-Pro in those conditions. The question is can the QB still go through the reads and progressions – and deliver the ball well – when all is not going perfect. This is the more common aspect of the NFL. This is also where I feel Kyle Orton’s greatest shortcoming is. He requires perfect conditions to perform at a high level.
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Kurt Warner is much the same way.
if that’s Kyle’s only limitation, would you be happy if he could develop into Kurt Warner?
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 2:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I didn't say it was his only limitation
Just his largest.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Then can I ask you for a top 3?
or just a few…. whatever the number is that talks about the biggest ones that stand out.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 4:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Okay, I'll bite
Letterman Top 10 Style
4. Panics when a play breaks down (eats the ball far too easily)
3. Must be perfectly set to deliver the ball with accuracy and/or velocity – (Complete inability to throw with velocity or accuracy when moving or off-balance)
2. Very sub-par accuracy on deep routes
And Kyle Orton’s #1 shortcoming: Requires perfect conditions to be effective. i.e., running game, o-line, dominant defense MUST all be working at the same time to be effective. Does not have the ability to compensate.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
in response, by number:
4. wouldn’t you rather he eat the ball than risk a turnover? A bad sack is better than an interception, right?
also, some of this is probably an issue of not being able to trust his OL. he was much better at this the first half of the year, when Harris was healthy and our interior OL was playing better.
3. this is a technical issue involving his mechanics. with proper instruction and better practice, can’t this be coached up?
2. see number 3.
1. I would see this issue as an amalgam or the first three. if his deep ball were more accurate, he could go to it and move the safeties back and take pressure off the running game. if he could throw on the run better, then he could move around more and take pressure off of his OL.
and how does orton need a dominant defense? I don’t see how it effects his personal performance on the field. sure, any team is better if the defense is better and gives them better field position and makes them not need to score as much, but does the defense’s performance change orton’s approach on any single play?
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
and keeping these mechanical issues in mind
if we can see them, can’t orton and McD see them when they watch their own game tape? isn’t this what orton will be focusing on improving all offseason now that he isn’t trying to learn a new system?
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions
a music metaphor, in keeping with our discussions:
if you are listening to a recording of yourself, and you hear that your biggest problem is that a certain note of couple of notes on your instrument is sounding out of tune, aren’t you going to focus on intonation with respect to those notes when you practice?
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions
True
But here’s a corollary to your analogy: as a pianist there are certain pieces – for example by Rachmoninoff, who had enormous hands – that contain stretches that I simply cannot attain no matter how hard I try. I can practice that section as much as possible, and improve my ability to roll the stretch as quickly as possible. But no matter how hard I work, I simply do not have the mechanical ability to complete what I am attempting.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
that's true about rachmoninoff,
but orton isn’t physically incapable of playing in the NFL in any way. at 6’4" and 225lbs certainly has a big enough frame to be as strong as any QB. it’s just a matter of conditioning and proper mechanics. you can always lift more weight and get stronger. it may not happen immediately all at once, but he will improve.
and accuracy on the deep ball and throwing on the run can absolutely be coached up. It’s like saying that if a saxophone player cannot hit a certain altissimo note, that he will never in his life be able to hit it consistently.
there’s a technique about all this stuff. I don’t happen to know it, because i’ve never been a QB for an organized football team, but my brother is a QB and he talks about it all the time.
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I was a QB
And a very mobile one to boot, and was blessed with the natural ability to maintain my velocity and accuracy when moving. However, I knew a lot of guys who worked like dogs at improving their abilities on the move and even with coaching simply never progressed due to things that seemed to be outside of their control. Size doesn’t mean much when it comes to certain aspects of the throwing mechanics. Some guys can only throw from one angle/one motion. Throw the hand position off at all and the accuracy drops like a stone. Some guys (Brett Favre pops to mind in the NFL) can seemingly throw from anywhere and be just fine.
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A few counterpoints
Orton has never been accurate on the deep ball, even going back to college. At some point, the realization has to be made that some areas of skill are not going to be attained.
Secondly, I do not believe mobility – in terms of evading pressure and throwing on the run with accuracy – can be coached up. The coach may know everything about the practice, but the coordination of throwing on the run is very different from throwing standing still. If this could actually be taught and improved through hard work, don’t you think Peyton Manning would be a master of this by now? He’s better at it than Orton, but no one will ever accuse Manning of being dangerous outside the pocket.
And in answer to how does Orton need a dominant defense to be successful, look no further than this: Over the last two seasons Orton is 4-15 when the opposing team scores over 20. 20! In other words, if his career continues as it has and the opposing team scores THE LEAGUE AVERAGE of 21.46 points against Denver, there is 79% chance that an Orton-led team will lose.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Orton's mobility
Is about average, I have found no real problems making him much more immobile than any other QB really, while he is not a scrambler, he do a pretty good job, and because of how often he is forced to play on an injured ankle, people often think that is his norm. I have watched a lot of video on him last season, and he did a pretty average job, and to say Manning is better than Orton is overkill, but he can still be a good quarterback without being the best. And for your stats at the end, Orton’s record is quite a bit better than 21%, so there might be more to it than just that.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions
there are a lot more factors that go into an offenses production as a whole
and the defense, other than getting the offense more possessions by getting off the field quicker and winning the field position game, has no part in any of them.
also there are many other players on those teams than orton. it isn’t necessarily fair to measure orton by the entire offense’s overall production.
in regards to the comment about the deep ball. let me use a music analogy. there are aspects of my playing that have always been weaknesses, but switching to a new teacher who has a new technical approach has actually turned into strengths.
My intonation on saxophone had always been a terrible, but when I switched to my current teacher, he showed me better ways to more effectively practice playing notes more in tune. a year and a half later, i would consider my intonation to be a strength.
there are still a few weak aspects of my playing. for example, my sight reading has improved since high school, but i would still consider it a weakness. suggesting that orton can never learn to throw a more accurate deep ball is like suggesting that no matter how hard I work on it, I will never in my life be a good sight reader. this kind of thinking just isn’t true.
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 7:43 PM MDT up reply actions
to your points:
It is true that the best musicians want to be noticed for expression, but in the jazz and classical worlds, at the highest level, the expression loses much of it’s meaning if the execution isn’t right. and Qb’s want to be noticed too, that’s why there are individual awards and the HoF.
Qb reads and progressions aren’t solely improvised, but neither is a jazz solo. excepting free jazz (where the point is to remove the parameters and just be expressive), you have to make choices based on the chords and harmonic rhythm – and that at the most basic level of the jazz “system”.
if the chord is a CMaj7, I have a certain number of choices that will sound good.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
right
which is why I made the haiku comparison… there are certainly limits on the choices you can make as a musician, but within those limits there are no “right” or “wrong” choices, only more expressive or communicative ones.
but there are certain choices that will not sound good
if that’s the goal of the improvisation, perhaps it’s a satirical piece, then that’s one thing. however, displeasing sound isn’t generally the goal.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions
right, but the point is
that a Qb DOES have a specific, unimprovised system of progressions and reads that are predetermined based on down/ distance/ defense. If he does not follow this plan, and does improvise, bad things usually follow.
There is no rulebook that governs the choices a musician makes, as long as it fits within the harmonmic/ rhythmic structure (which is easier said than done). Of course some choices will be much more succesful than others, and developing the ability to make these choices in a fluid, masterful, and expressive way is the goal of a jazz musician. But there is still far more freedom within the structure of the chord changes than there is for a QB trying to run an offensive system.
true, but there are still many wrinkles in the jazz system
many conditional “rules” (i put that in quotes because they are more guidelines, but a musician will be much more sucessful by following them). i’m not talking about exact note choice so much as cues that are taken from what’s going on around you.
for example, there are certain common chord substitutions that improvisors are expected to be able to diagnose and react to. registral and dynamic cues should be taken from the other musicians.
the thought process is much like a Qb reading:
if the safety plays a deep zone, i should look for my slot receiver on the cross, but if the safety plays a shallow zone, brandon marshall will be in single coverage running the deep post.
if we’re in C major and the chord changes of the next 4 bars are ii-V-I-I and I hear the pianist and the bass player playing a tritone sub for the V chord, I should play over a Db7 in stead of a G7, but if they play the V I should play over a G7.
After all that, I would liken the note choice to the QB choosing which shoulder on his receiver he should throw the ball to.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions
great example
And I agree that this is an example of when the comparison between the two works very well. And if you are playing rhythm, there are obviously much stricter rules. Obviously (and depending on the style of jazz), there are certainly guidlines and stylistic practices, but the soloist does have a greater degree of freedom than a QB does at the line.
I’ve played a bit of jazz in my day (not much professionally, but a few gigs here and there) and I’ve always felt that there is no such thing as a wrong note, just a wrong way of approaching or leaving a note. Even if the note is quite outside the changes, depending on how you phrase it, there is always a way to get in our out of that note convincingly.
Again, I would argue that this is not the case with a QB, where a “wrong note” leads to points for the other team.
wish I could edit comments
Obviously obviously. But my point is that, no matter the strictures of Jazz, there are greater degrees of freedom than that allowed a QB. And to a different goal (individual expression) as opposed to winning a contest.
i agree that you can play anything, and in context it can work
but I would liken that more to a QB throwing to the “wrong” shoulder of a receiver because he sees he has a window to get it there and that shoulder gives the receiver the opportunity to turn around a defender.
I remember cutler making a play like that to royal and thinking it’s pretty cool.
however I think that just denoted a farther level of mastery of more advanced concepts.
It’s like playing a minor 3rd over a major7#11 chord. to some that’s a wrong note, and in the wrong context, it can be, but to some that’s implying the 6th mode of harmonic minor (lydian #9). it’s just higher level concepts.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions
sure
and in theory, any note can be a part of an extended harmony (just keep stacking thirds and you’ll get there eventually). But my point is that the specific notes are secondary to the expressive goal of the phrase (within the framework of course), whereas in football, the specific passes are everything. And a wrong one will cost you.
yes,
but the more precisely you look at the goal of the phrase, the more options there are and the more specific you have to be with your note choice.
but it’s true, the penalty for throwing behind a reciever and into a DB’s hands isn’t quite as great as picking the wrong note once.
that said, little mistakes add up on both counts.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions
but
what about a musician who sees those things in the music, but doesn’t yet have the technical proficiency on their instrument to play the notes, even though they realize the deeper nuances? this is a musician with the potential to be great once they get their physical technique together, right?
Orton is exactly this musician. he sees the nuances and makes good decisions, but is not as physically polished on his instrument (his body control, his conditioning, etc.). but physical strength is something that can be worked on. this is why orton has great potential, but only more nuanced evaluators like McD seem to see it.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:39 AM MDT up reply actions
I agreeing with your framework and your categories for the sorting of players and musicians
I am disagreeing with how you identified orton and how you are evaluating QB’s.
I made this part more clear when i reworked this comment for a fanpost, but I see Orton as an elemental force as well. he is an elemental force, mentally speaking. physically, he has work to do, but he is a very good decision-maker and he knows what throws he can and cannot make and he uses the tools available to him to the best of his ability. this ability is what can make him great. you can always lift weights and improve arm strength, or practice to improve accuracy, but if you can’t read a defense or make calls at the LOS, or prevent yourself from throwing interceptions when your pass protection breaks down, you are just as limited as a player who can only throw the ball 30 yards downfield.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions
and McD sought to get rid of cutler once he saw the attitude with which he approached his job.
the reason we chose to trade with the bears and not with any of the many other teams that were in on the cutler bidding war was because we could get orton. McD thought orton was better than any of the other Qb’s he could acquire, so yes, he chose orton.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:18 AM MDT up reply actions
I would also disagree with your assessment of shanahan as a QB guru.
other than Elway who would have been sucessful anywhere because he is the greatest Qb of all time, what great Qb’s has shanahan developed?
McD has personally developed brady into a future HoF QB, Cassel from a high school starter into an NFL starter, and now has helped Orton have a pretty darn good first year in his system. I think McD has a better track record with developing Qb’s than shanahan does.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Brady
Brady had been in the league 6 years by the time McD even moved to the offensive side of the ball and had already been a success. McD gets no credit for his “development”. His claim to fame with Brady consists of the being the play caller two years ago.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
in that case,
shanahan doesn’t get credit with young or elway. He was not a part of the broncos when elway was drafted and was the WR coach until he took over as the OC during Elway’s 3rd year.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions
Shanahan
Coached up Brian G. Jay Cutler, and Jake P. to the Pro Bowl (Jake only went to the Pro Bowl in 2005). Also, John Elway did not play in his first Pro Bowl until 1987 (4 years after he entered the league).
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
Good reply wyoeng.
Actually Elway made his first Pro Bowl after the 1986 season, but that was played in January ‘87, so maybe that’s what you meant. And McD didn’t develop Tom Brady. Way too much credit there. And a lot of you say that Cutler whined his way out of town, maybe true, so that would mean that McD didn’t really want to get rid of Cutler as much as Cutler, and Bowlen, eventually forced McDs hand. At least I hope that McD wasn’t afraid to coach a talented QB like Cutler, and was actually looking for someone with a lot less athletic ability. But obviously Orton was the best of a few weak QBs that teams were willing to part with along with a couple of 1st round, and a 3rd round, draft pick. It’s not like McD was drooling over Orton.
drooling might be the wrong word,
but the downgrade from cutler to orton isn’t really much of a downgrade at all.
i didn’t think i’d ever say this at the time of the trade, but the more carefully you think about it, Orton is a better prospect than Cutler right now. In terms of a complete mental and physical package, I’d rather have Kyle Orton then Jay Cutler as my QB. of the future.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
How are you defining "potential"?
Because to-date, Cutler’s statistical performance is not supporting the concept of unlimited potential (looking only at the three years he was the primary starter):
Comp%: 63.6 to 62.3 to 60.5
Yards: 3497 to 4526 to 3666
YPA: 7.5 to 7.3 to 6.6
YPG: 218.6 to 282.9 to 229.1
TD: 20 to 25 to 27
Int: 14 to 18 to 26
20+ Plays: 41 to 55 to 56
40+ Plays: 7 to 7 to 6
Rating: 88.1 to 86.0 to 76.8
The majority of his statistics have either stayed the same or declined overall. That suggests a player who is currently operating at his peak. Could that change? Absolutely. Could it remain the consistent pattern? Sure.
As with Orton, there is no way we can tell at this point what Cutler’s potential is. Based on what I’ve seen thus far, I’m not terribly optimistic that Cutler can overcome his pattern. The key is, as you pointed out:
The only question is whether or not he will commit himself to the tutelage and time required to harness that billion-volt potential.
I would disagree with your assessment that the final two games of 09 suggest that he will commit himself to the kind of changes to rise to the next level, since the rest of his body of work to date is at odds with that.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
And yet
Many posters point to one half of Orton’s game against Washington as proof against all his shortcomings. Seems to me that the comparison favors Jay.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
he made some really good deep throws in the NYG game as well
people tend to forget that because we were already ahead by that point, but the game wasn’t put away.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions
True enough improv
and my critique of their reasoning is exactly the same. We must look at the entire body of a player’s work before we can offer interpretations of what that means. A single game could all too easily be an anomaly. So, look for patterns from year to year.
This is why I am against sweeping statements for either QB (ala “Orton has reached his ceiling and it isn’t very high” or “Cutler has unlimited potential”), we simply have insufficient evidence for either statement.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
orton = nice car with no upgrades
no fancy wheels, no great sound system, no turbo. just a solidly built car.
He could use a couple of extras (pump fake, mobility) to make it look and feel better but it is what it is. Hopefully, a car that gets you where you want to go (lifting Lombardi trophy).
by Orange and Blue on Mar 20, 2010 9:00 AM MDT reply actions
.....and environmentally friendly.
Kyle Orton is a Prius.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by kentuckybronco on Mar 20, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions
This sounds right.
I’ve read several places that Orton has political aspirations to run for Congress as a Democrat.
His father is a state government offical and vocal Democrat in Iowa.
In my opinion.
I wish you wouldn’t have told me that
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race" Calvin Coolidge
Might want to remember
that it was a pump fake that got him injured in Washington. ;-p
He slowed up during his scramble to pump fake & freeze a defender in front of him, & that’s what allowed him to be caught from behind & led to his ankle being fallen upon.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
I'll agree that Orton is not particularly fast
but look at the game film of the play I referenced: Orton visibly slows to pump fake off the defender in front of him which allows the trailing defender to close the distance more rapidly than he might have had Orton simply kept running.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
hold on, now
he’s slow, but he’s no jamarcus. he’s certainly as fast as many good NFL QBs (Manning, Brady, Warner).
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions
armstrong
played in a time when there was little intellectual input involved in jazz. it was thoroughly at pop music in that era. However, Armstrong was clearly head and shoulders above his contemporaries. framing the analogy with historical context, actually louis armstrong is to early jazz as peyton manning is to QB’s in football today.
i’m not sure there’s a well known musician who is comparable to orton, because we don’t usually hear about musicians until they are much more polished at their craft than orton is at playing the Qb position. perhaps we can look into an analogy next season when orton is more developed.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
Nice Analogy
I have a question for you: who is your version of a Virtuoso that the Broncos should have on their roster? Is there one, currently available through FA or the draft?
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
orton will eventually be that virtuoso.
give him a year or two, he’ll show you something. he’s got all the mental tools and the work ethic to complement it. with a year of elite coaching from mcD under his belt, he’ll surprise a lot of people in the next couple of years.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:48 AM MDT up reply actions
a year of elite coaching ****and time to hone his craft during the offseason***
it’s hard to progress much when you’re under the gun and don’t have a ton of time to let things sink in. i think orton will be much better after this offseason.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions
and by sink in, i mean develop accurate muscle memory
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree
I’m searching online for any news on Orton showing up in Dove Valley yesterday. So far, I can’t find squat.
Orton needs to get back to camp so he can begin getting in better shape, which I think is what’s missing in his game. Quinn could push Orton in the gym so he adds a little strength and athleticism.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
Available now?
There isn’t a finished product available. One of the main point of this is simply to describe the type of musician (or player) that can become a virtuoso. I do not believe Orton has it in his makeup due to a lack of certain qualities that simply cannot be taught. Cutler had a better chance if he had submitted to harsh coaching and criticism. I need to go back and watch a lot more tape, but I believe Quinn has a better chance than Orton to reach Virtuoso levels. Doesn’t mean he’ll do it, but the Elemental foundation is there.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
respectfully,
what qualities doesn’t orton have that can’t be taught?
cutler could also be a virtuoso, but i think he’s lightyears behind orton in terms of actually getting there. cutler needs a major mindset change with regard to precision, before he can begin to sort out all of the problems in his game. orton has at least shown that he’s commited himself to taking it to the next level with his precise play.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:42 AM MDT up reply actions
Interesting "precision" comment
Considering Cutler’s career completion pct, yardage and TDs/year are all far above Orton’s. I believe you’ll see a much larger increase in production and virtuosity from Cutler this season under Martz than from Orton.
I answered this just now a couple comments above, but the primary thing Orton lacks is the ability to maintain a high level of play when all components of the offense are not clicking. He needs perfect or near-perfect conditions to be effective.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Cutler has him beat in interceptions, too.
Regarding Martz, he’s reportedly a bit of a dictator and a stickler for detail. I’ll be interested to see how their personalities jive over the next year or two.
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race" Calvin Coolidge
LOL
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
How complex do you really want the offense?
My roots are in Denver, but my branches grew in Nebraska and my leaves fell in Lincoln.
by Blackshirt4Broncos on Mar 22, 2010 7:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Interesting
Good article Improv88 for a couple of reasons.
It provided a thought provoking analysis.
It stimulated great conversation.
I’m a musician; I’m also a logician.
In logic, one consistent warning is to recognize the limits of “argument by analogy”.
The risk is similar to the fallacy of the “undistributed middle”. Definition of terms becomes critical.
Many of the comments sense this it seems.
How high on the “elemental force” scale are QBs like Montana, Brady, Brees, even Manning.
How flexible or expansive is the term “vertuoso” when applied to any NFL player?
When and/or how does an “attitude with an arm (or guitar)” become an “elemental force”, if ever?
Is a “team” just a coordinated collection of “talented individuals”? I’ve often wondered how Brady would have done at Pittsburgh – Rothlensberger at NE – Manning at Oakland for that matter.
One of the things your article demonstrated (and what makes the NFL so interesting) is that the potential variations are almost limitless – skill sets of players, possible formations, schemes, personnel combinations, sizes, speeds, “smarts”, etc. Yet more than one combinations is successful. Sometimes successful ones are hardly similar.
And many are not successful though seemingly they have the right combination of ingredients to be so.
When I look for a constant ingredient for success, I almost always come up with “smarts”. Without it great talent, dogged discipline, dedicated work, will fall short. However, with it, you don’t need the highest level of all of the others. The higher the level the better. But one can be successful with less talent, shall we say, and still be successful, “a virtuoso” (Montano, Manning).
I agree that Elway had talent, discipline, a good work ethic and “smarts”. It’s why he was so much fun to watch. But his combination may never be reached again.
I can’t predict (no one can IMO) what Orton, or Quinn or Brandstater will become. We can try to identify and evaluate the ingredients we can see – arm strength, foot work, mobility, etc. But there are important ingredients that are not easy to see right away.
So, we’ll see!
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 20, 2010 9:51 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
I would never try to shoehorn everyone into these three areas
And I agree, the analogy can only go so far. One point you brought up involves smarts, which has become the buzzword of the century since Orton arrived. I would add another one that often trumps smarts in pressure situations: Instinct. Smarts go a long way during preparation, and can provide solutions for many/most situations that will arise. But in high-pressure situations, a player with profound natural instincts will regularly best a smart but linear player. Exhibit #1 would be Barry Sanders. Barry himself could not explain much of what he did on the field, but his combination of balance, start/stop speed and above all instinct allowed him to make fools of some very heady, well-prepared defenders over the years. The QB example will always be Favre, but I really have better things to do with my time than wax eloquently on that beaten horse.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
musically speaking,
I would liken favre to sonny rollins. he’s a great player but he’s mistake prone because he’s running on instinct all the time. he has great instinct so that can work very well-farve has some superbowl rings and sonny has some GREAT records.
but that can also blow up in their faces and end very poorly – Farve i think has surpassed the mark for most INTS of all time(?) and rollins has some real clunkers in his catalog along with the great ones.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions
Don't disagree about instincts
I often use the term “quick smarts” referring to athletes. IQ is one thing, but quick reaction is another. I see “quick smarts” as a combination of quick analysis and quick reactions. Sometimes it is “intangible” but often “quick reactions” or “instincts” are developed through planning and practice.
Good analyse and good practice can IMO develop great instincts.
There is an old adage that says “a good athlete practices until he can do it right; a professional athlete practices until he can’t do it wrong.” It has become an instinct.
Some players (like Sanders) seem to see and react more quickly than others. However, IMO all players see and react more quickly the more familiar they are with the scheme and the more frequently they have had to make quick decisions and reactions.
May “instincts” is a better term than “quick smarts”. I think our point is pretty much the same. Didn’t intend to sound critical. In fact, the intense response to you article is a pretty good indication of your ability to strike nerves in all of us. For that, I say, “Well donw!”
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 20, 2010 11:17 AM MDT up reply actions
this is exactly what i've been getting at.
great point on the “instincts”. I missed this in the shuffle of rapicfire posting before, but this is really well said.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Smarts
By the way. I saw somewhere that the player who scored highes on the intelligence test was WR Eric Decker of Minnesota. Is anyone mentioning him as a possible Bronco? – maybe 4th round. I’d like to see. He’s 6-3, 215lbs, 4.54 (40), with great hands. And great attitude!
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 20, 2010 10:01 AM MDT reply actions
interesting,
but what kind of intelligence does that particular intelligence test determine. is it the same kind of intelligence that he needs to play football?
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:03 AM MDT up reply actions
At the combine
I should have been more clear.
It’s the test they use at the combine, I’ve forgotten its name. But its use is intended to indicate ability to think quick as in the NFL. Don’t know what standing its given, to be honest.
Probably means little, since no one seems to mention Decker.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 20, 2010 10:20 AM MDT up reply actions
he's shown up in some mocks that sayre's put together though...
I’d be psyched to see him in orange and blue. just at what cost? wasn’t he supposed to be a 3rd round pick, or so?
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions
oh, you said 4th
missed that at first, sorry…
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:21 AM MDT up reply actions
i'd be happy if we took him in the 4th
provided we can’t get DE alex carrington… he’s one of my favorite mid rounders from this draft and is also projected in the 4th
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:22 AM MDT up reply actions
This just in: The Chicago Symphony Orchestra beat the New York Philharmonic 21-14 in OT on a fumble recovered by a 2nd string Flutist.
Interesting analogy to serious musicians. There’s something to be said for both technical skills and virtuosity, however, when you’re playing football you don’t have to be worried about being sacked by an oboe player, you have to be worried about NTs and DEs. Timing, strategy, and play calling(an art in its own right) are part of the equation. Another problem with your analogy is that regardless of the talent level of the QB, it don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that (swing)Oline, or D, and special teams. If a certain player doesn’t make it for you on style points, so be it, but the bottom line is points, not virtuosity. The 2008 team moved the ball well, but came in 16th in scoring. Too many other problems in other areas. We traded that QB to chicago for 2 bassoonists and a percussionist to be named later.
haha nice -- now to address a few points
yes, the difference between QB and musician is in that you’re physically talking about fine motor skills versus full body large scale physical activity. the conditioning is different but both still require a ton conditioning. also the prospect of being hit hard if you mess up, or sometimes even if you make the best available play is something that musicians don’t have to deal with. physical toughness is needed for QB that isn’t needed for music and Orton has that in spades. (finishing the year on bum ankles twice?, i just dealt with a bad sprain ankle last summer/fall, it had me in an orthopedic walking boot for 3 and a half months).
“timing, strategy and play calling” are part of the equation in music too. you have to develop approaches to improvising (strategy) and you’re improvising through a song from (a play).
“Another problem with your analogy is that regardless of the talent level of the QB, it don’t mean a thing if it ain’t got that (swing)Oline, or D, and special teams.” like in music, how if the other members of your group aren’t playing well, you won’t sound good? Like how you won’t sound good in some cases even if you do everything right, but you aren’t mic-ed well and balanced properly through a sound system (which is completely out of my control as a saxophone player on stage)?
there are more similarities than you might think…
also, at least for me, when i’m talking about virtuosity, i’m talking about proficiency of execution, not style. Bob marley is an incredible and unique singer and guitarist who offers art of great substance (pun intended, but seriously, there’s great emotional depth to his music and lyrics), but is anything but a virtuoso.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions
Definition of virtuoso
We’re on slightly different wavelengths here. If your def of a virtuoso is all about proficiency of execution, that is what I call a perfectionist. A virtuoso is one who has unlimited execution skills, but is coupled with superior style and a killer instinct.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
style is something that can't be applied to football, so i've been trying to leave it our of the discussion.
but there are musicians with interesting and distinctive style who are in no way virtuosic.
and what is killer instinct but the ability to make good decisions quickly. and if we’re talking about the execution of a mental task like improvising of quarterbacking, doesn’t this show in execution?
i think our differences in the definition of execution is where we differ. I am, in my own not-so-clearly-articulated way, trying to differentiate physical execution from mental execution.
virtuosos, in my book, have all the mental and physical execution totally DOWN and are free to make artistic choices and stretch boundaries because they can casually work their way through the parameters without exhausting all of their mental energy.
the only difference between a QB virtuoso and a musical one is that the QB isn’t making artistic choices, he’s trying to make the best choices that put his team in the best position to move the ball and score points without turning the ball over.
the instinctual aspect is what leads to good artistic choices in a musician and good decision-making in a quarterback.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Bingo
virtuosos, in my book, have all the mental and physical execution totally DOWN and are free to make artistic choices and stretch boundaries because they can casually work their way through the parameters without exhausting all of their mental energy.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
and from this,
I would argue that orton has the mental tools and the physical potential to be this kind of virtuoso at QB. He just needs more time to develop the physical aspect.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions
to bring it full circle
This is why i would put orton into the category of Elemental Force and not into Perfectionist, and why i think he could be a virtuosic QB some day.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Any symphony that would waste two 1st rounder on bassoonists
Is just begging to play Peter and the Wolf over and over for the next 12 years.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
Coach P.D.Q. Bach did that....
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Wow. You musician fellows really have some great insights.
A couple of points.
I’ve noticed over the years that many attempts to create super groups out of all virtuoso players seem to fall a little flat. Maybe a good group needs some less than virtuoso players to be ideal – someone has to provide the frame for the picture to really shine (to switch to a visual art analogy) – Ringo Starr comes to mind. Of course in football I wouldn’t want the less than great guy to be the QB.
As far as the infamous Jay Cutler situation, maybe Mr. McDaniels could have ‘coached him up’ if he didn’t have to also evaluate the entire team and coaching staff, institute a whole new system, acquire new players and win right away. On top of that Cutler seems to have made it quite clear that he was in no mood to be coached. Attempting to create a whole new team without enthusiastic support from the quarterback would have been a disaster. I think (don’t really know ) that Mr. Bowlen had a hand in the Cutler trade. Sometimes there is no perfect choice. Trading for Orton and some draft choices was the best the Broncos could do considering the whole situation. Rec’d.
You are absolutely right,
that most exclusively virtuoso groups generally fall flat. Part of it is that professional chamber groups, or jazz groups, or rock bands, basically live together for months at a time and play music with each other for hours a day, year after year. Virtuoso groups are generally assembled at the last minute, after they have left from other solo engagements.
But part of it is that after playing solo for a while, and getting really used to being the center of attention all the time, people’s egos can become pretty inflated. So, even if they are absolutely capable of blending with those around them, they don’t really want to. It’s hard work, and takes a large degree of humility to excel playing in a small group, and be asked to subjugate your own ego for the better of the group (sounds kinda like football now doesn’t it?). So when a group of virtuosi get together, they often aren’t terribly motivated to blend and really play as one unit.
It's like pro-bowl vs. super bowl
On the one hand, you’ve got a collection of stars who don’t really care about the outcome of the game. On the other, you’ve got teams that have lived, worked, and fought together for an entire season (possibly seasons) played a ton of games and are at the peak of their togetherness (well, assuming that super bowl week was, umm, relaxing).
This is a great post. I agree completely.
Comparing Michael Lombardi to Bill Williamson is like comparing an In-N-Out Cheeseburger to a sh## sandwich.
Williamson would probably eat both – no questions asked.
Improv, your framing of the situation
has made me rethink my support of Orton more than any other line of logic. Ivan’s rebuttal to yours was interesting, as well. Fortunately, I have no choice but to wait and see what happens. I still pull for the hard worker. I agree that watching a true master in the “zone” is magical. I’d love to see that in Denver. Personally, I have a hunch that Orton will show some flashes of inspiration. Maybe it’s just hope.
My corollary to your argument is this:
By your definition, Beethoven was arguably a Perfectionist become Virtuoso, and Mozart a Force become Virtuoso. As you know, Mozart’s music was pre-composed, in his head, by most accounts. He simply put it on paper, with no rough drafts. Beethoven labored and kept years of notes and melodic and harmonic sketches in notebooks. He worked ideas and reworked them until they were right. He was brooding and calculating, opposed to Mozart’s whimsical genius. But Beethoven executed when it counted. An argument of who is better, Beethoven or Mozart, would be as similarly circular as this Orton debate. The advantage in that case, however, is that history has already been written on the composers, and they are both great. Orton’s life is unfolding, and the future is unclear.
I agree with your point that a Force can become a virtuoso much more easily than a perfectionist can become one, but I do believe it is possible, though rare, for a Perfectionist to become a virtuoso. I have no evidence to support this other than experience, but as a performer/player becomes familiar with the technique and language, and studies its iterations and familiar phrases, creation becomes easier. Think about jazz…. You listen to get better. You study what others have done. You get their language in your head. You practice their riffs, licks, transcriptions, etc. When you can execute those licks without thinking, you begin to own them, to change them, to create based on them. Then your playing becomes like a game of “telephone,” with each performance changing the lick a little until it is completely unique to the original.
I see it all the time when teaching jazz to my junior high kids. The kids who practice diligently have the hardest time learning to improvise, but they do. They start simple, with limited musical vocabulary. Gradually, they get comfortable, and learn to listen as an audience to their own playing. Csikszentmihalyi called it “Flow.” Some call it “the zone.” It’s inspired performance based on total command of technique, where you are on the cutting edge of the art. I believe that if Orton gains enough comfort in the system, he will cease to be a simple perfectionist and you will see a transcendence to a higher level, approaching virtuoso in the same way Beethoven did.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Rhythm
I like your ideas, although I do think that Beethoven was an elemental force despite his rigorous editing.
Where I particularly like the comparison of QBs and Jazzers is in their sense of rhythm and timing. The basic core of music is rhythm- and the true masters understand and exemplify this. Like you said, Harv, they get the “flow”, the groove going. The best musicians (and this definitely does not only apply to Jazz) have a fluidity and freedom within their sense of the pulse and their timing, that makes everything sound effortless and thus far more virtuosic.
This is the exact same as a QB that has “found their rhythm” and is hitting all their strides- they’ve internalized the timing and rhythm of the offense and opposing defensive pressure to the point that everything seems effortless and fluid. And again it all comes from rhythm.
Unfortunately, I would say we haven’t seen this degree of virtuosity from KO quite yet, but I think it is definitely still a possibility that we will see it in the future.
That said,
I would say that the reason for this seems to be the physical side of his play lagging behind the mental side, but not in a way that can’t be worked on. With McD’s coaching Kyle can be a legitimate Virtuosic QB.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Sure the rhythm comes.
But the rhythm only comes after you fully understand the language. I’ll use an analogy to help explain the analogy: When a child starts learning to read, she must master first the alphabet, then the sounds the letters represent. Then she must learn which letters represent which sounds and be able to reproduce the sounds when she sees the specific letter (decoding). Finally, she must link the sounds together into words, and link the symbols together into words. Understanding any concept is broad and deep. The child talks/communicates before she reads in most cases. Learning is multimodal and holistic; it occurs through all senses at once. As Orton plays the system, he learns it. As he studies the playbook, he learns it. As Ausubel discovered, as Orton watches others play, he learns it vicariously. He learns by hearing the coach talk about it. He learns through trial and error. He learns from film. He learns from talking about it, from constructing his own vision of the system through connecting it to his previous life experiences. As all these facets connect, and all these disparate worlds in Orton’s brain begin to overlap, he will have a deep enough consciousness to build upon the knowledge and create opportunities where there are none. He is a smart guy, according to most accounts. He needs to be given the opportunity to flesh out his understanding through all available means before he is a master of the system. Most folks are only giving him another season. I would give him 2 or 3 more. However, with Quinn, who may understand the system better at this point, McD should go with the better choice. Either way, we have good depth at QB right now, I think.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
by HarvJNep2n on Mar 20, 2010 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Hard to say how (if at all) quinn factors in as anything more than a backup.
I feel like we’re in agreement on the idea that the longer orton has in the system, the more comfortable he’ll be with it, and the more he’ll be able to think outside the box and be a successful QB. I’m glad to hear someone else advocating that orton should have 2 or 3 more years in the system so he can master it.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions
But Rhythm is its own skill as well
I agree that masterful rhythm is only possible with masterful technical proficiency, but developing rhythm and timing is also its own separate skill/ ability. For example, I think one of the greatest masters of rhythm is Snoop Dogg. Whatever you may think of him or rap in general, the fact is that he has an incredibly mastered sense of rhythm and pulse, so that he is always able to be late to the beat, weaving in and out of the pulse, but always in full command and with incredible fluidity and flow. I’ve seen him live, and while most rappers are pretty terrible live, Snoop is simply incredible. He has truly mastered his particular style of rhythmic command.
Likewise, when you watch Kurt Warner, Peyton Manning, and Tom Brady, they all have this incredible sense of the rhythm of their offense (ie when the receivers are breaking into routes/ arriving at their spots). Notice how often we hear about the ball “arriving on time”- aka arriving in rhythm. Likewise, the sense of timing of the pass rush is related to this sense of rhythm- to know exactly how long you can hold the ball before the rush arrives. So a QBs rhythm is actually one of his most important sense, and one that they work on constantly.
This mastery of rhythm, we have not yet seen from Kyle Orton. The closest I can think of would be the NE game last year. But even then, I never sensed a virtuosic “effortless” quality to his sense of timing. Obviously, Orton has only had one year in this system and that is simply not enough time to develop this mastery.
However, some people just don’t have a finely tuned sense of rhythm, whatever their other qualities may be. I have known many musicians over the years who have mastered many aspects of their craft, but could not ever truly master their sense of rhythm. It is hard and takes time. But here’s hoping that KO can become the Snoop Dogg of the NFL (except not late or, you know, high).
Orton's biggest weakness
To me has been getting into a rhythm, but he has proven he can, it’s just a bit rarer than I’d like.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
by maxwellsdemon on Mar 20, 2010 5:06 PM MDT up reply actions
btw, great comment, rec'd
Just went back and reread some of today’s discussion and this comment really stood out to me. I absolutely agree with everything you said in this comment, and it’s very well put.
Thanks.....
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Another point about the analogy of music
One of the most important aspects of ensemble music – chorale, symphonic, most groups – is the concept of “blend”. Virtuosi seldom blend well.
I sang in the Opera Colorado Chorus and Colorado Symphony chorus for years. Few “elemental force” or “virtuosi” musicians in either. (“Do you know how to get two sopranos to blend: you shoot one.”) They don’t blend well.
You might counter that both virtuosi and choruses sing together effectively in operas and in other works like Bach’s Passions or Mass in B minor, but they sing side by side (sometimes exquisitely), not together, so to speak.
IMO here the music analogy doesn’t fit a football team very well. Divi do better in the music hall than on the gridiron.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 20, 2010 1:17 PM MDT reply actions
agreed
This is basically the point I was making above with my symphonic musicians analogy. That being said, the true masters are able to blend as well as anyone- they just don’t do it very often because they are always expected to be featured. For example, Yo-Yo Ma (as famous a virtuoso as there is nowadays) is also an exceptional chamber music player. Of course, sopranos are a different bird altogether (and I’m totally stealing ur quote- "Do you know how to get two sopranos to blend: you shoot one." LOL!). But football demands a much greater degree of ego suppression and adhesion than solo music making.
well solo music making doesn't relate well with a team sport
but the interactive nature of jazz and chamber music and even the interaction between members of a section of a larger ensemble make a more apt comparison.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions
that's true
but there are many moments of solo playing in jazz and in chamber music. In Jazz, there are ‘solos’ that get passed around all the time, where one person is meant to be the object of attention. Same with chamber music. So even when you are not technically a solo musician at that moment, when all the attention becomes drawn to one person (and is intended to be so) that is a ‘solo’ for that person. And very often, the goal of that solo is some degree of ego expression.
I can’t think of many ‘solos’ in football. Maybe when a player has the ball in their hands and is running forward in the open field, or after a WR catches the ball (especially if it’s a touchdown). Otherwise, there is always a predetermined set of options, such as choosing a particular running lane, or throwing the ball to the right spot. And these true football moments (which are the majority of the game) are not about individual expression.
I always tell my marching band kids
to imagine they’re playing football, analyzing the offense, the defense, and remembering your role at the same time, while also trying to do geometry homework. They have to keep track of where they are, where everyone else is, what note they are playing, how it balances with the other parts, whether they’re in tempo with the drum major, and whether their feet are in step, all while physically executing the emotion of the music.
I think those individual football moments are about individual expression. Moreno has better instincts to make guys miss than, say, Hillis. Those instincts and individual choices make the game into an art form. Thelonius Monk could not have played like Stan Kenton. The whole game, like any jazz tune, is a product of the mix of performers. It’s chaos theory, butterfly effect in every way. Everything depends upon individual decisions. The consummate professional knows when to step out and be the diva to make a play, and when to provide a tasteful accompaniment and throw a key block or absorb a hit. I want a team of playmakers who know how amazing well-timed silence can be.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
ego expression
I should refine my terms. Moreno making a guy miss is an individual expression, but of physicality, not of ego. Solos, in music, really are about the identity of the performer- the best soloists are revealing, really baring themselves psychologically for the audience. This is where I see the distinction between football and music. The best football players truly bare themselves physically and emotionally, but in an effort to compete, to win. Not to express their own ego. At least most of time (see touchdown grabs, etc.)
Makes sense.
I see your distinction.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
No kidding. There are some smart cats on this site.
You’re one of ’em!
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
this is true, but their success is not because of their musical ability.
musicians like this get by on style, and personality, but it doesn’t make them better or more precise musicians.
they’re showy, yes, but they can’t back it up. for some reason the world likes its musicians like this. This isn’t tolerated in football. Football players can be divas on the field or they won’t be successful, and they aren’t afforded the luxury of being divas off the field unless they back it up on the field.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Style and QB work
Joe Motana, physically he did not have the strongest arm around nor was he incredibly fast. He had an uncanny way of dropping the ball right where it needed to be when it needed to be there with a beautiful touch. He also had a way of sliding around in the pocket and would get out and run when need be. Orton’s arm strength is good, his accuracy is good most of the time, he can fire it downfield when healthy. He seems mechanical under pressure and lacks the flair to step up in the pocket, to move to space, getting the connection with the receiver to make a great play. I think this flair is the difference between a great QB like Elway, Montana, P Manning or even Drew Brees and Tarkenton. I hope I’m wrong that Orton is more of a stiff character with a low top end but what he seems to show under pressure is that backup tempermant that gets pretty stiff. Great Virtuosi have that thing instinctively to orchestrate entertain and raise their fellow performers, they can’t be truly primadona because they must be comfortable enough with their own talent to be willing to elevate their peers…. Although BQ hasn’t shown what it takes yet he may have more of this than KO. Cleveland and the knee jerk reactions to every series of downs didn’t give him much opportunity to show.
E J
i pick the bears tomm for the mock draft i take a nap for my health from noon to 3 30 eastrn time every day so if i am not here this is why i went on wcg and got info on who the bears want and if i am not here can u pick the best OT G S on the borard
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24
I thing the quarterback is best assosiated with guitarists. I've run my own comparison
using guitar players from the Rock/Metal spectrum.
Jimmy Page: Brett Favre is Jimmy Page. He’s not “technically” proficient….but man you like seeing what he’s doing up there and he composes a great song. He has since been living on memories of what he did with his former band (Green Bay/Led Zeppelin) but when he comes on the tv/ipod you can’t turn him off.
Ritchie Blackmore: Philip Rivers and Jay Cutler are Ritchie. Ritchie Blackmore is tempermental….moody…and is prone to throw fits. But dear god when he hits it out of the park you stand in awe. Blackmore also is prone to many an “off” night. Refusing to do encores…and leaving the rest of the band in the lurch while they scramble to finish the gig. Rivers (temperment) and Cutler (mistakes that cost the team) both fit these aspects of Blackmore.
Ace Freeley: This is where Orton and Quinn fall. He compliments the band he’s in perfectly. When the band get’s other guitarists….they end up as clones of Freeley/Orton (IE: Quinn) who serve the 4th member of the band. Not the star. He only functions in context of the “band” and you only really notice him on occasion or when sparks fly out of his guitar (once a concert/game)….
Marty Friedman: Peyton Manning is Marty Friedman. Technically perfect. Even when he improvises its seamless. While he was in the band (Megadeth/Colts) he made the entire team better. Making everyone pick up their game by his performance. However, he spends the next years after his “peak” being lauded for something he accomplished years ago (Super Bowl/Megadeth)
Jeff Beck: John Elway is Jeff Beck. Simply one of the most brilliant guitarists ever. Sonically innovative. He both works in the context of the “band” (The Yardbirds…Jeff Beck Group with Rod Stewart/Denver Broncos) and also on his own. He has more comebacks than anyone else, and would put out licks and passes that make you wonder how on earth one man can do that by himself.
Eric Clapton: Tom Brady…..Simply one of the best guitarists out there. But in hindsight you struggle to remember what exactly made him remarkable. The man hit’s his “peak” early in his career and then coasts the rest of the time….parlays his past glories into critical praise now matter how boring he can be. Then he will remind you (reunion with Cream in 2005/2007 Patriots) why he’s still considered one of the best.
"Groovy" Ash from Evil Dead 2
"No one came from miles around / and said man your music is really hot" No One Came...Deep Purple
Love all those players
The git fiddle players, anyhoo. ; ) Nice comment.
Side note: I’ll be disparaged for saying this openly no doubt, but Peyton Manning should have a few more rings if he’s everything everyone always claims he. I see technical brilliance in the sense of Glenn Gould… i just don’t feel any heart. That’s a prerequisite for me in loving (as opposed to merely liking) a QB. Anyone who doesn’t think post-season record should count against the guy is wrong, imo. That’s really all that should count if the pundits are openly poised to crown a guy the greatest ever.
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
by broncosmontana on Mar 21, 2010 4:58 PM MDT up reply actions
LOL @ Glenn Gould.
Do you think Peyton mumbles and hums the plays under his breath as they unfold?
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
If it's anything like Gould...
The humming would have nothing to do with the task at hand. Peyton would have to be humming “Bohemian Rhapsody” while the pocket was collapsing around him.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
I think I've seen that happen... LOL
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Consider the following
Starr – perfectionist
Namath – elemental
Dawson – perfectionist
Unitas – virtuoso
Staubach – virtuoso
Greise – perfectionist
Bradshaw – elemental
Stabler – elemental
Montana – virtuoso
Plunket – elemental/virtuoso
Simms – perfectionist
Williams – elemental
Hosteltler – perfectionist
Rypien – elemental
Aikman – virtuoso
Farve – elemental
Elway – virtuoso (by then)
Dilfer – perfectionist
Warner – virtuoso
Brady – perfectionist (at the time)
Rothlesburger – elemental
Manning P – virtuoso
Manning E – elemental
It would seem that you can win the big game with any type.
My favorite part of this post is
NO DAN MARINO. LOL.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
you can win the game with my GRANDMA
but if there’s better out there by all means give it a shot. …and there IS better out there.
can you win the superbowl with brian griese or bubby brister? absolutely! but you’d damn well better have a simms defense or a dilfer defense (btw can we STOP with the dilfer anomoly?) or something a lot more sum-than-its-parts than you’re likely to get or than the broncos have now.
if our object is to win the superbowl with an average QB then bowlen had better start saving up some pesos to bring all-stars into a lot of other positions.
WIN for IMPROV
this is one of the best fan posts I’ve read. i’ve been trying to say this for months but was doing a crap job at it. nice work, improv.
no one (or at least no no who watches nfl) is saying that kyle sucks or can’t play or what have you. the folks who aren’t so enthralled with orton, however, just plain don’t see him saving games. that’s HUGE as a QB. yes, he’s solid. yes, his arm is strong enough. he’s smart, works hard, yada ya. but the man is an average or slightly above average QB. that’s it.
it’s nice and all but can we get someone with a lot more elemental in him? kyle has zero.
My main disagreement is that
I have seen SOME perfectionists become virtuosi. Either that, or my definition of perfectionist differs from Improv’s. Or, we disagree in our categorization of Orton.
Of course, I’m the believer in the quote I first saw by an MHR member: Hard work beats talent when talent doesn’t work hard.
When talent does work hard, though, the other guys better look out. I happen to think Orton has more talent than he’s being given credit for.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
by HarvJNep2n on Mar 20, 2010 6:44 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
WOW.
I can’t possibly add anything to THAT post and thread, other than — epic!!!
Nice work, improv! Loved the ride!
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
Orton and his potential
Orton will never be the most physically gifted or innovative QB out there. He will never be a Brett Farve, or a John Elway, or even a Peyton Manning…. but then neither was Joe Montana.
The more I think about it, the more I think that may be the best comparison there as his peak.
Both of them perform well because of great decision making… they excel by getting it to their playmakers on time and in stride, but they can’t do it on their own. Joe M was a good QB in KC, but without Rice, would he have been as great as he was? Terry Bradshaw is another good example, though a different somatype. He was a good QB (not great), who when surrounded by talent won a bunch of superbowls. Namath is the same thing with a bigger mouth.
Orton, with no accompanying playmakers in Chi looked generally mediocre… and then he threw for 3800 yards his first year in a new system with B-marsh. Once he really learns the system, is ~4000 yards per/year out of the question? At that level of production, he’d have to be considered a “virtuoso” and would be one of the NFL elites.
The other point, which I make repeatedly, is that too many Denver fans consistently over-estimate how many great “virtuoso” QBs are actually available at any given time. We’re in a golden age of NFL QBs, and there are ~6-7 HOF-talent-level QBs out there… Manning, Brady, Farve, Warner, Rivers, Roethlisberger and maybe Brees… and 2 of those guys are or may be retiring this year, and one may be going to jail.
Even if Orton is only a top15 QB, the chances of whoever we get to replace him being better are actually quite slim. There are very few NFL-starter QBs who are capable of throwing for 3800 yards per year with minimal interceptions,etc. Folks calling for his replacement just don’t understand at all how bad QB play is generally in the NFL, because in Denver we’ve been blessed with some very good QBs (even our worst ones, like Griese and Plummer weren’t BAD) and talented offensive coaching for the past 25 years.
I live in DC, and let me tell you…. I would LOVE to have Orton replace any one of the ‘skins QBs of the past decade… an over-the-hill Brunnell, Todd Collins, J Campbell…. Orton is as good as Mark Rypien or Doug Williams, and those are the best QBs the ’skins have had in 20 years! He’s probably even better than Theisman, which makes him the best in 30+ years!
Folks are still looking for another Elway, but I hate to break it to you… those guys come along VERY rarely. Only ~15% of teams can have a “top-5”/“franchise” QB at any given time… but it doesn’t mean that if your QB is only about 10th best that you are not better off than 20+ other teams… particularly if your guy is only 27 years old and one year into your system.
Orton has plenty of things that he does right, enough that if surrounded by a good team, he is fully capable of winning multiple superbowls.
Will he carry his team to the big game singlehandedly like a P. Manning or J. Elway… no. He will not single-handedly make Denver a dynasty team. But any serious attempts at replacing him are more likely to make the team worse than better. Thats why taking and trying to develop high upside guys like Quinn and Brandstater is a much better strategy than to throw a high-pick at a “QB of the future”. If you strike gold and get a HOF-stud, great… but any “QB of the future” is highly likely to be worse than our “QB of the present” (Orton), so don’t waste resources that can be better used elsewhere.
by cjfarls on Mar 23, 2010 12:44 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
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