In Defense of Kyle Orton - Part 2
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 20, 2010 11:15 AM MDT
58 comments
I recently posted a article entitled "In Defense of Kyle Orton" (click here to read) in which I attempted to provide some rational considerations for why Kyle Orton was tagged with the "Game Manager" label... and then to present some reasons why I felt that we had yet to fully see exactly what Kyle Orton can do as a QB.
Improv88 then posted a wonderful rebuttal entitled "In Rebuttal to Kyle Orton" (click here to read). In it he compared the QB position to 3 types of Master Musicians...
1. The Perfectionist - Not very talented, but through discipline and hard work, becomes a very good musician.
2. The Elemental - All the talent in the world, but lacks the discipline and work ethic to go to the next level.
3. The Virtuoso - Has the talent, but also the discipline and work ethic to become the best of the best.
(I hope my summaries here accurately reflect the essence of Improv88's post)
His premise was that Kyle Orton would be classified as a "Perfectionist"... a QB that doesn't have alot of natural talent, but through discipline and hard work, has become a decent QB... but will never be able to acheive anything more because he lacks the natural talent to do so.
After the Jump, a rebuttal to the rebuttal...
First, let me tip my hat to everyone here at MHR. The vibrancy of the debate on these posts have been amazing. They are well thought out, balanced, and reasonable. You just simply do not get this level of debate anywhere else on the web. We really do have an amazing community here!
With that said, I would like to give a few reasons why I believe it is unfair to consider Kyle Orton as only a "perfectionist" type QB.
To do this, obviously, we need to understand what are the most important tools for a QB to posess in order to be successful. Below (in no particular order) are, from my perspective, some of the neccessary tools a QB must have in order to succeed.
-Accuracy - The ability to put the ball at the right place, at the right time.
-Arm Strength - The ability to get the ball to the right place, either quickly or deeply.
-Pocket Presence - The ability to sense the pressure from the pursuing defense and to react accordingly.
-Good Decision Making - The ability to quickly process all of the available information and make a decision that results in a positive outcome for the team.
-Ability to Read Defenses - The ability to recognize coverages, call out potential blitz's, and then make the appropriate calls at the line of scrimmage.
-Mobility - The ability to evade pursuing defenders and to keep the play alive with thier feet.
-Leadership - The ability to inspire confidence and performance from the entire team.
I am sure that I am missing some important tools here, but let's assume that I have covered at least the major areas.
Now, within each of these tools (or traits), a QB can be very strong or can also be very weak... or somewhere in between. For instance, JaMarcus the Hutt might be very strong in Arm Strength, but his Accuracy is horrific. Jake Delhome may have strong Leadership, but his decision making stinks. Jason Cambell is very mobile, but doesn't have the ability to read defenses and make changes at the line. Get the picture.
If you will notice, each of these tools can be broken down into two categories... Physical Tools and Mental Tools.
Physical Tools - Mobility, Arm Strength, Accuracy
Mental Tools - Leadership, Decision Making, Reading Defenses, Pocket Presence
Let's take John Elway. The guy was strong in every area... both Physically and Mentally. That is why he was probably the greatest QB to ever play the game.
How about Jay Cutler? The guy has all the physical tools, and yet leadership and decision making are major areas of weakness. Those are two key Mental tools of the trade... and so may explain a career losing record... or never having led his team to the playoffs.
What about Peyton Manning? The guy is great in everything except for Arm Strength and Mobility. He is probably the best QB ever on the Mental side... yet the Physical tools are average. Still, he's one of the all time great's at QB.
What I hope your starting to see is that it isn't just the physical ability that makes a QB great... but also the Mental ability. And if I was to place a priority on one or the other, I would say that the Mental tools are, quite possibly, more important thant the Physical tools in terms of a QB's potential for having great success.
One reason why I believe that a good chunk of Bronco fans refuse to give Kyle Orton any credit is because he is not an amazing "Physical" talent. If I was to rate Kyle Orton on the above tools, it would look something like this...
Physical Tools
Poor Average Elite
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Accuracy [-------------------------------------------------X-----------]
Arm Strength [-----------------------------------------X-------------------]
Mobility [-----------------------------X-------------------------------]
Mental Tools
Pocket Presence [----------------------------------X---------------------------]
Decision Making [----------------------------------------------------X---------]
Reading D's [-------------------------------------------------------X------]
Leadership [--------------------------------------------------------X-----]
(the above assessments are completely my own assessment... based on what has been said and written about KO)
So what does all of this mean to the debate that Kyle Orton is a "perfectionist" and doesn't have the natural talent to become an Elite QB?
I believe that assumption is made on the faulty assumption that a QB's physical ability is what defines thier "natural talent".
However, I believe that if you take a full assessment of the tools neccessary for a QB to succeed, you will find that the physical ability is only valuable if it is combined with superior mental tools. In fact, it seems quite evident to me that Superior Mental tools can even overcome average physical ability... specifically when in comes to the QB position.
Kyle Orton is not an elite physical talent... I think that is pretty much a given. The only thing that is physically elite for Kyle is the neckbeard. However, a better question would be...
"Is Kyle Orton an elite Mental Talent?"
and that question really has yet to be fully answered. I believe the evidence is that Kyle has above average Mental tools, and that given his ability to learn, to receive coaching, to think quickly, to make good decisions, and to learn from mistakes... I think it would be unfair to say that Kyle is simply an untalented "perfectionist". In fact, if you include all of the tools neccesary to succeed as an NFL QB, with some preference given to mental ability, then I think that you could very easily make a case that Kyle has the ability to acheive Virtuoso status.
I am not saying that Kyle is a Virtuoso... my premise is simply that it is too early to make diffinative judgements about the kind of QB Kyle Orton is or could be in the future.
Thanks everyone for participating in this dialog... this has been a very fun and enlightening experience.
UPDATE: Evidently, as I was working on this post, bailey disciple also posted an entry into this debate entitled "In rebuttal to "In rebuttal to Kyle Orton" which you can read here. Great stuff.... Keep it rollin...
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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KO apparently cant read Chief Defenses
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
ouch!
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 20, 2010 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions
that would pose a problem
hopefully he’ll figure it out.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
yeah
that run D was the worst. that god McD’s doing something to fix the DL!
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
we really were right on the same page with theseposts, guesskowski
great stuff and rec’d
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 11:54 AM MDT reply actions
I don’t agree with many of your ratings.
My rating of Orton on your scale (which I am assuming on a scale vs other starting NFL QBs).
Orton has:
Accuracy (6)
Arm Strength (4)
Mobility (2) – his biggest weakness
Pocket presence (6) – takes too many bad sacks to score higher
Decision making (7.5)
Reading Defenses (5)
Leadership (8)
I’d also add
Toughness (10)
Mechanics (5)
Release (5)
Improvising (3)
Injury risk (high)
I really don’t know how anyone could rate Orton at or near elite in the category of reading defenses. In fact, I hardly remember him ever calling an audible at the line of scrimmage after a survey of the field. As 2009 progressed, our opponents adjusted to Denver and Orton regressed in this area. Once teams figured us out, he would lock in on Marshall (the Cutler way).
I really don’t agree with mobility. There are few QBs, if any, in the NFL that have less mobility than Orton. He took many painfully awful sacks in 2009 that were entirely on him. Sacks most other NFL QBs would have avoided. He is not a good scrambler and does not throw well outside the pocket or on the run.
There is no way Orton has above average NFL QB arm strength. I’m not saying it is a huge liability as you can see by my score, but his cannon is not one of the strongest 15 (or 25) in the NFL.
In my opinion.
I disagree on the arm strength.
I say it’s average NFL. He can really fire it in there if he wants (ask Brandon Stokley) and he can chuck it deep if he has time to take a step forward. I’d say “deep-to-mid-range accuracy” is a thousand times more important than “arm strength” any day. No one cares if you can throw a 40 yard bullet if it goes 10 feet over the receiver’s head (Cutler). Orton showed good accuracy on his posts, seams, and deep outs last year if I remember right. I don’t have any hard evidence to back it up, but I’d be willing to say that his arm is in the top 15 for both strength and accuracy.
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
by papigrande on Mar 20, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I doubt you’d have many NFL GMs and scouts that agree with you.
Orton does several things better than your average NFL QB, but arm strength is not one of them. Accurancy is about average.
In my opinion.
Problem is, McDaniels disagrees with that, McG
He’s gotten to the point where he just laughs and shakes his head when someone brings up this old and inaccurate ‘weak arm’ business. I’m more likely to believe his analysis than anyone who isn’t a professional.
It all starts with the lines
;-) No meant to be a shot at anyone
One of he patterns that is common in human life is the tendency for someone to see something in print and then to pass it on is if it’s fact. It happens all the time. If McG has some quotes from scouts, HCs and GMs who are familiar with Orton that support his viewpoint, that’s great. Since the HC who is most familiar with him has stated the opposite perspective more than once, that’s also worth consideration. The stats on Orton tend to support the idea that his arm strength is fine, as have the comments from players on the team and the HC. If other folks (scouts, GMs, buttent teammates or HCs have a different view, I’d be glad to see that, too.
It all starts with the lines
respectfully, of course, I have a few issues:
firstly, with regard to strength and accuracy, what papi said. He’s definitely not elite in either category, but he’s better than he gets credit for and is improving.
he’s not terribly mobile, but he not Jamarcus Russell in there. 2? (perhaps a biased rating?)
I don’t remember him taking a ton of bad sacks, but I haven’t checked out enough of the tape to refute this with any conviction. and what is the relationship between mobility and pocket presence, because they aren’t the same, but one definitely effects the other. how many of the “bad sacks” are mobility issues and how many are pocket presence issues?
I’d say he scores better than a 7.5 on decision making. he threw very few INTS until he was pressing at the end of the year because he supporting cast wasn’t consistent. I guess the fact that he threw more INTs when the supporting cast was inconsistent could be held against him, but it’s not entirely his fault and should improve.
He could actually be seen calling audibles pretty regularly. he also played a big role in determining which rushers were coming and setting the protection packages. I remember they did a segment on it during the NYG game on thanksgiving. he was pretty active at this and was pretty good at it too.
only an 8 on leadership? this is the one where i disagree more strongly. did you see the total change in attitude by the broncos when he came into the charger game in spite of his injury? That is a man who inspires his team and commands respect. how can you give him only an 8 after that showing? If that’s not a 10, dkn what is.
isn’t release a part of mechanics? and can’t mechanics be coached? with a work ethic like Kyle’s shouldn’t we expect him to be able to improve in this area?
I’m not quite clear on what, specifically, you’re basing his improvising score on. could you clarify this a bit?
Anyone could have gotten the injuries he got. that’s not because he’s a high risk player. think about how the injuries were sustained he’s no more at risk than any other QB.
I’m happy we see eye to eye on that toughness rating, though.
by bailey disciple on Mar 20, 2010 12:29 PM MDT up reply actions
JaMarcus Russell is an OG trying to play QB.
You don’t remember the bad sacks? You need to re-watch those games and pay better attention. He took some awful sacks in 2009. One at home vs the Raiders and one on the road at San Diego jump right to mind. But there were many more and guys like Clady giving him the look of “WTF was that”?
I gave him an above average score for decision making, but let’s not make him out to be a Brady or Brees in this area. He has room for improvement in this category.
I don’t think he called as many audibles as you suggest. He rarely changed formation, but I did notice him pointing to the blitzing LB or S on many occasions.
I gave him a great leadership score, but again. The guy is not Manning or Rivers. He was awful in the KC must win game. He slinked away in a moment of need and it was not something you’d see from the top guys in this category.
His release is not fast nor slow. It’s average.
His footwork would have been a better word than mechanics. His footwork is average at best. He trips himself up a bit and his INTs are often a result of bad footwork.
He has been hurt three times in the past two seasons. For a starting NFL QB, that is a lot of injuries. How often to Manning, Rivers or Brees go down for a few games here and there.
I rated him like a Top 20 QB, you rated him like a Top 10 QB. There are very few NFL football folks that see him the way you do.
In my opinion.
in terms of release and footwork,
all of the mechanical issues can be fixed by good coaching and hard work at practice. If he is as hard of a worker as everyone (coaches, players, media, the broncos organization, the bears organization, former teammates, former coaches — i mean everyone) says he is, then we should expect him get better in this area in the offseason.
also, if he tweaks his mechanics, I would imagine that will have a positive effect on his arm strength and accuracy, especially on deep throws. also on the subject of this offseason, he will be able to focus on conditioning much more this year than he was able to last year given the added work of learning the new system. if his mehanics improve and his strength, speed and agility improve, shouldn’t this go a long way to address many of the issues that you have with him?
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions
i guess what i'm saying is what i said to improv88 in the other thread,
if we can see all of these issues with orton’s game, can’t orton and McD see them as well when they look at the tape? won’t these be the aspects of orton’s game that they focus on improving in the offseason?
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
Orton is 27 and going into his 6th season. You know the saying its hard to teach an old dog new tricks. It won’t be easy to break all the bad habits and I’m sure other coaches have noticed them before and he has worked on them before. At his age and NFL experience, he does’t have nearly as much untapped upside as a guy like Flacco or Stafford or even Quinn.
It’s not my problem with Orton. You have to realize most football people (including McX) view Orton the way I do. If he was viewed as more than an average NFL QB with limited upside, he’d have a long term contract with Denver or would have been signed to a LT deal as a RFA.
He was had for very cheap last offseason and now no one is willing to offer him a deal even thought he is a RFA.
It’s some MHR fans that think he is a Top 10 QB or about to be. Very few feel the same way outside the walls of MHR.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Mar 21, 2010 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed across the board
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
So McX must think that Doom sucks too...
who does not have a long term contract….
or Kuper… Or Marshall…
Your logic here to diminish Orton because he hasn’t signed a contract forgets the current contract climate that exists for players.
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 21, 2010 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions
An old dog at 27? come on McG not even close in today’s sports world. Everything is dependent on which team the player is drafted by. In Orton’s case, is was by the bottom of the barrel when it comes to QBs. On top of their extremely poor track record when it comes to the position of QBs, the Bears wasted five years on Grossman at Orton’s expense and please don’t respond that it’s because KO didn’t show them anything. In spite of the adversity in Chicago, the fact the KO escaped with his reputation/career intact is a small miracle in itself.
Speaking of teaching an old dog(27lol) new tricks, ever hear of Steve young and Curt Warner?
also, remember that quinn is 25
so it’s not like he’s a rookie either. but both are well with the age range where they can still improve immensely.
by bailey disciple on Mar 22, 2010 7:29 AM MDT up reply actions
Well, according to McDaniels...
One of the reasons that he took Orton from the Bears was because he had watched every snap from Orton in 2008 and was very impressed with his ability to read the defense and make the right decision.
Also, McDaniels gave Orton alot of credit for making audibles at the line of scrimmage… in to decent plays and out of bad ones… but that is just from what McD had said in the past.
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 20, 2010 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
The two first rounds picks didnt hurt either.. :)
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
With TWO 1st round picks and 3rd rounder. Come on. Orton was the throw in, not doubt about it.
We can’t even trade Marshall for 1st round pick, so it shows you how teams value those picks vs the player that is traded.
In my opinion.
we could have had 2 firsts a 3rd and quinn
we could have had 2 firsts, a 3rd and campbell
we could have had this same trade with a number of different teams with the only difference being which QB to choose. McD chose to trade with the bears because the QB on the table was Orton.
by bailey disciple on Mar 21, 2010 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
common thread
with the teams that were interested…Redskins, Browns, and Bears…weak and desperate management/coaching staffs.
And all those trades were about the draft picks far before they were about which QB would be the throw in.
Orton was the throw in for the trade. Nothing more.
In my opinion.
Not according to McDaniels...
again… McDaniels said that he watched every snap orton had taken in 2008 and saw atleast a somewhat attractive QB in the deal.
So, if he was just a throw in…. why would McD spend so much time considering his potential as a QB in our system?
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 21, 2010 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Pretty easy answer
He knew he had to get a QB out of the deal. I can almost guarantee that he watched ever snap Jason Campbell and Brady Quinn took as well. Orton was merely the McDs preference out of a VERY limited selection.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
No audibles?
That’s a stretch isn’t it McG.
My ratings are
Accuracy – 7 and trending up
Arm Strength – 5 and good enough
Mobility 5 – when he’s healthy. Certainly as good as Manning, Warner, and Brady
Pocket presence – 6 and trending up.
Decision making – 7.5 and trending up.
Reading Defenses – 8 and trending up. as he gains experience
Leadership – needs to be more vocal on the sidelines, but is a 10 on the field
Toughness – 10
Mechanics 6 and McD will help him improve
Release – 6
Improvising – I don’t want him to improvise unless the game is on the line. Take a sack or throw it away if 95% of the time.
Injury risk – have you actually watched the plays where he was injured. Missed two games in three years.
Projection: top 10 in 2010.
by rocko1 on Mar 20, 2010 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
If Orton is a Top 10 QB in 2010, I’ll eat my shoe.
The guy doesn’t have Top 10 talent and has never had Top 10 production. This would shock me for him to jump guys like
Ryan, Cutler, Flacco, Sanchez, Schaub, Eli and Palmer and enter the Top 10 of NFL QBs
In my opinion.
and I'll
eat your smelly shoe if he isn’t, under the following terms…1. he isn’t playing hurt. 2. Orton starts at least 14 games. 3. the basis for comparison is ESPN QB overall ratings.
In both 2008 and 09, KO was top ten before he suffered ankle injuries. In 09, he was top 10 even with the splint and glove up until the second Chargers game. He was rated higher than Palmer, Cutler, and Ryan in 2009..despite the injuries. Orton finished 14th in 2009.
In regards to Palmer and Ryan
Both of them had injuries as well. The injury excuse has to be applied for all players and not just Orton
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
There are a lot of ways to measure Top 10
He consistently had a passer rating that went over 90.0 in 2009, with 10 games in at that level of play. In the league last year, that kind of performance was good for 5th in the league. And in terms of Broncos history, it is second only to the 1997 superbowl bound Elway.
If we want being in or out of the Top 10 to really matter, we need to qualify it.
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 21, 2010 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions
As an anti Orton guy
I think MCGeorges assessment is spot on. I actually agree with some of the posters on here that his ability to read defenses should be ranked higher then a 5. I thought that was the one thing he actually did well.
Where I dont agree with a lot of the posters here is his accuracy. Far too often he was throwing behind, below or too high for the receivers. There was a reason why Marshall was targeted so much and Royals production fell off the map.. Marshall wingspan covers the most ground. Throwing to Marshall allowed Orton to mask this deficiency in his game.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I'll buy the accuracy.
Do you remember that play they tried to run several times in the red zone that resulted in Orton basically throwing the ball through the uprights EVERY time? He could not hit a receiver in the middle/back of the end zone. He was at least 5 feet off every time he tried to make that play. I kept thinking he was being cautious to avoid a pick. I hope that was it, but it made me mad.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Man
I wanted to say something, but it looks like every one beat me to it. Glad to know I’m not alone in my ideas.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
by maxwellsdemon on Mar 20, 2010 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions
On Orton's "lack of mobility and pocket prescence":
Last year, Chris Simms was our back-up QB. I think we all know that Simms wasn’t ready to comeback to play in the NFL. I think that Orton took some of those sacks and gave into the defense because he knew that if he got hurt, then his team wouldn’t have a chance (see Chargers’ game). If this, in fact, is the case, he isn’t the only one that does it.
Peyton Manning, one of the best QBs in the game, subdues to the defense sometimes by sliding down in front of the blitzer instead of taking the big hit, subjecting him to injury. Manning knows that if he gets injured, his team has less of a chance to win.
So with this in mind, can we really say that Kyle Orton has bad mobility and pocket prescence? I don’t think so, and I think that with a competant back-up QB this year (Quinn), we’ll see Kyle Orton decrease the amount of times he subdues to the defense.
"When you put on that jersey, the name on the front is more important than the name on the back." - "Miracle".
"Winning means you're willing to go longer, work harder, and give more than anyone else." - Vince Lombardi.
I won't try to tear your post apart like some others on here do.
I’ll just say, nice post and move on, because it is fruitless to argue with know it alls! Keep up the good work tGGK and thanks.
Orton rankings
Overrated- Accourding to above rankings: Decision making- Early on in the season Orton had at least 3 or 4 passes that sould have been picked. Others that drove me crazy was the pick in the Pitt game were he threw the ball right to the saftey and the two that he threw to DJ in last KC game. I know it is hard to play QB when your line is garbage but I feel like his decision making is a just a little over rated 7 or closer to 7 than 8.
Underrated: Passing accuracy, Arm Strength and Leadership- Orton is extemely accurate at least a 8.5 if not a 9 that is how he can play in the league. As for arm strength it isn’t as strong as Cutler or Elway but he gets the ball were it needs to be Quickly and throws a much more catchable ball at least 7.5.
As far as leadership- he was the only leader on offense last year in my opinion at least a 9 if not higher. He played hurt which goes along way in my opinion- Maybe Gaffney also.
by Marvel Man on Mar 20, 2010 2:03 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Astutely put
I can’t understand how so many people miss the fact that Kyle can throw a bullet when necessary. Just because he doesn’t throw every pass that fast or something…? I guess that can happen when you’re accustomed to a boastful gunslinger.
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Mar 20, 2010 3:14 PM MDT up reply actions
+1
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Great posts and comments in this series! Loving this particular Bronco dialogue!!!
I believe there is another essential tool in evaluating a QB
Finesse – the ability to not only throw a ball with a certain ‘feather touch’ when necessary, but to not let on with looks, actions, or habits that let a defense pick up on what kind of play is about to take/taking place.
I would say Kyle is a 7 or 8 there as well. And again, these are some superb reading! Thanks again MHR and HillisRanUOver… I meant GGK, sorry, I’ll get used to it. ( =
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Mar 20, 2010 3:17 PM MDT reply actions
I figured finesse into Accuracy....
but maybe it should be it’s own category…
I would rate Orton an 8 or so…
JaMarcus at a -10
The Fan Formerly known as HillisRanUover...
by theGreatGuessKowski on Mar 20, 2010 6:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Great stuff you started today, GGK.
Again, sorry about your old handle. Moment of silence for departed #22.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Finesse vs accuracy
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding how people are defining these terms, but Orton’s ability to throw a touch pass is considerably superior to many QBs, including Cutler, who has struggled to throw with any level of ‘touch’ at all.
It all starts with the lines
by Doc Bear on Mar 21, 2010 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Then we should sign him to a long term contract
these posts are all opinions by many bronco fans, don’t know about the “know it alls” comment. I like reading everybody’s opinions on this, don’t really want to be on a site where we all agree. If that were the case, nobody would be on here. Great post GGK, love the way you lay it all out and leave it up to the rest of the fans to discuss their own opinions. Makes for a great site. I love hearing from all of us “know it alls”.
There we go
Physical Tools
Poor Average Elite
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Accuracy -—————————————————————X——————-
Arm Strength -—————————-X——————————————————
Mobility -————X———————————————————————-
Mental Tools
Pocket Presence -——————X——————————————————————
Decision Making -————————————————————————X————
Reading D’s -—————————————————————————-X——-
Leadership -———————————————X—————————————
"Is Kyle Orton an elite Mental Talent?"
Every time I see Kyle in a game I think, “this dude should not be out there, he’s gonna get killed.”
Lol, sorry but Kyle Orton is a normally athletic dude with an incredible knack for football. Yes, I’d say he is an elite mental talent, but that is the ONLY reason he can play quarterback. His physical tools are sorely lacking, and I’m not talking just about arm strength.
I’m talking leg and lower body strength here for the most part. Dude just doesn’t move like an athlete.
Anybody remember Steve Grogan?
Orton sometimes reminds me of him.
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