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Hindsight on Orton, Plus Words of Wisdom

There have been two excellent posts on Kyle Orton recently, In Defense of Kyle Orton and In Rebuttal to Kyle Orton. I am a supporter of Orton, but not entirely sure he is the next big thing, he has done a lot of good things, and needs to improve as well. While I am no expert at the game of football and the guys who wrote those articles have been around longer, I do have a major in sociology, so I know a bit about how to read a crowd, and the general moods of a group of people. In this great MHR we have a strong showing of support towards Kyle Orton, and it has suprisingly been growing since the end of the season, even with the arrival of Brady Qiunn. In a poll that was taken about a week or two ago, 75% of fans supported Kyle Orton as the starting quarterback. While most fans support Orton in most part, few are willing to commit to him long term, which is acceptable. Even in the article rebutting (is that a word?) Orton, there was no real harsh critical words against him, mostly pointing out a few weaknesses he has. But since the words and advice of fans really don't count for much, I just wanted to take a look at a few quotes about Orton from players, coaches and analysts. Also I should be noted that in the time I've been doing my research, a part 2 of Orton's defense has been put up, so I'm obviously going to slow. This is not a compilation or a full season review just what I saw in general. Here are a few:

Brian Urlacher: "Kyle Orton might not be the flashiest quarterback, but the guy is a winner, and that formula worked for us. I hate to say it, but that's the truth." Link

Brandon Marshall: Concerning preparation and study "Kyle Orton is is definitely No. 1... he's always in the lab." Link

Brandon Marshall: "Kyle Orton is actually a great quarterback" "Don't doubt him" Link

Josh McDaniels: "He prepares hard.. he's a leader." "I trust him more than most." Link

Okay I realize that these are just a few quotes, but after a while a pattern stuck out, he's patient, smart and a hard worker, the perfectionist as improv88 said. But the thing I found most interesting was after watching post game shows from the Broncos games was that in almost every game, commentators made at least one comment about how they liked Kyle Orton's pocket presence and how he moved in the pocket. The best example was against the Patriots, Here at around 1:00 minute is one times he did a great job. A lot of video I've watched of Orton maneuvering around the pocket, moving up, or out to make passes. This was a shock to me because the sentiment here, and my own opinion was that Orton lacked mobility. Now it should be noted that no one said he was like Ben Rothlisberger or Donovan McNabb, but they never mentioned how he would get tripped or sacked easily or how he got spooked often. More often then not they said that he had good control and that while on the move his short to medium passes were accurate, often referred to as darts or bullets. I was even more surprised to see how many times he scrambled for a first down. I only counted 4 times, but each time, he looked pretty good. Also while I found Orton did struggle with deep balls, it was often when he was pressured or being hit that the balls were often under thrown. While he obviously doesn't have the arm of Jay Cutler or Aaron Rodgers, his arm was pretty decent all season, only struggling on occasion to complete deep passes. But it isn't his strong point.

For the first six weeks he was even mentioned in Pro Bowl and MVP talks, and with how many players left the Pro Bowl, Orton had better seasons than Vince Young or David Gerrard, so if the Pro Bowl was selected on skill Orton would have at least been an alternate or taken the place of either of those two.

While I am no expert on football, and these are just a few quotes, but I as I went back and looked at the season, already knowing the outcome so I don't have to worry I can just watch, I found Orton to be a safe, secure, and good quarterback. I was deceived by those who said Orton was completely immobile, but I found he was a fairly decent pocket passer, much better than we give him credit for. I will not that the first two games of the season as well as the three after he injured his ankle, he played a bit softer on it, but that is acceptable considering he often returned too soon from his injuries. While not a big play maker often, he plays very smart football, his number one compliment, and he is respected by his team. From what I saw, his biggest problem was finding rhythm, especially if he was pressured. Orton's not perfect, but he's a pretty good quarterback. Now I realize that many might view the past games differently, I just wanted to listen, read and watch what experts had to say about him, cause I figure they are smarter then me.

Poll
Focus for Orton this off-season?
Improve Athletic Ability
50 votes
Film Study
19 votes
Weight Room
28 votes
Shaving his Beard
6 votes
Growing out his Beard
22 votes

125 votes | Poll has closed

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

4 recs  |  Comment 56 comments |

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Can I have an option for

Improve athletic ability AND weight room?

McDaniels said that the two things Kyle needed to work on were his “overall mobility and strength.”

:)

Nice write up btw

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by BShrout on Mar 20, 2010 6:23 PM MDT reply actions  

Haha

Maybe not the best designed poll, with the whole beard option.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 20, 2010 6:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great work. Rec'd. I like the fact that you LINK to your evidence

that supports your ideas.

I hope the NE game was not an anomaly. Orton did play well.

Off topic, I was struck by Eddie Royal’s contributions on the drive you linked.

I didn’t know how to vote, because it’s hard to work on athletic ability, I think. An ability is more innate. He could work on his athletic skills, though. But now I’m just being a semantic asshole.

Thanks for your work!

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Mar 20, 2010 6:30 PM MDT reply actions  

Darn semantics

They get me in trouble, I suppose I meant that he could improve his athletic ability. Sorry.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 20, 2010 6:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

That New England drive reaffirmed my faith in Orton

But if you move up to the 2:16 mark on this link, you’ll see the play that first made me think that Orton has what it takes to be our guy for the foreseeable future. Gutsy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2uX3aC98Os

by Vortex7 on Mar 20, 2010 6:37 PM MDT reply actions  

I really enjoyed

That clutch drive he had, while he didn’t have a lot but the ones he pulled of were pretty exciting.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 20, 2010 6:53 PM MDT reply actions  

Haha

It never hurts to have a supporting cast who plays well.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 12:16 AM MDT up reply actions  

Youah, but I see McGeorge and Improv's point:

Elway was clutch with NO supporting cast. Of course, when he finally got one, we won super bowls, so even the greatest needs a little help.

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Mar 21, 2010 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

*yeah, not Youah

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Mar 21, 2010 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

True

But those quarterbacks a very, very few. A good quarterback can be clutch much easier with a good cast.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

I agree.

I’m excited to see what Orton can do with another year in the system and a better line and a more effective running game to balance.

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Mar 21, 2010 9:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well guys,

After lurking around these 3 post on Orton, the only thing I want to know from the defenders ansd skeptics is the answer to the following:
— Does a Good, a Mediocre, or a Disappointing seasonby KO THIS YEAR (barring injury) unite us behind one assessment???

Well?

by idahobronc on Mar 20, 2010 8:33 PM MDT reply actions  

Probably not. LOL

From what I’ve seen, the majority of folks here seem to be pretty much middle of the road, waiting to see what will happen.

The only real difference between them is that some are expecting Orton to not do well while others believe that he will.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by BShrout on Mar 20, 2010 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Majority

Does seem to be around middle, most looking for this next season to cement their opinion.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 12:10 AM MDT up reply actions  

that would be a good long discussion to have

A good season and I’m sure he’s secure. A mediiocre season and the Denver Post mob will be carrying pitchforks to his house. I disappointing season only means that we get to see what Quinn can do with surrounding talent. :)

I'm glad we had this talk. -- TJ Johnson

by BroncoInExile on Mar 20, 2010 9:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Define the three

For example, what if his season looks identical to last season? Since I consider last season to be mediocre to begin with, a repeat performance would be a disappointment and necessitate his departure.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.

by improv88 on Mar 21, 2010 8:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thats the problem

If he has another decent year like last year, which was pretty average, than I would look to trade him, but I don’t know any other FA that would be a better choice. Orton is the best on the market right now.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions  

Calling 86.8 quarterback rating mediocre is nonsense improv.

With nearly 2/1 TD/INT ratio, 3802 yds (15 games) and 62.1 comp% is mediocre? Define mediocre in the correct sense, because I don’t find it with those stats. Orton’s pocket presence or his abitities as a signal caller can’t be all blamed on him. When his OLine collapsed at about 2 1/2 seconds there isn’t a quarterback in the league who could work with that and a prime example is Peyton Manning. When the Bronco defense finally applied pressure to him, he struggled in the pocket and couldn’t make plays. The whole game in Indy and Philly was the defenses inability to restrain the quarterback early, then adjust and play well when it was too late. Calling Kyle Orton mediocre is like calling the kettle white and if your going to make statements like that, you need to back it up with fact or don’t state it. This is not TNA wrestling it’s an information site that trys it’s best to relay the truth.

by bfree2bronc on Mar 21, 2010 9:52 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

86.8

with a splint/glove on throwing hand for four games, then playing six games on a injured ankle. Let’s take Manning, Brady, Favre, Brees, etc ….put them under the same conditions, and let’s see what their rating would be.

by rocko1 on Mar 21, 2010 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

yep

historically, his performance last year was one of the best statistical Broncos performances all time… there isn’t much not to like about Orton as far as the stats go…

And on top of everything else he had personal career bests all around, except for completion percentage. Of course, his NE game he had a single game career high completion percentage around 72%,,,,

I think the NE game is what we should look at when we ask ourselves how good Orton could consistently be if he keeps progressing and isn’t injured. It wasn’t his best game from the QB rating viewpoint (though I think it was almost 100.0), but in every other way it was pretty masterful… He scrambeld, overcame early errors,a nd led a come from behind win, while racking up some impressive stats and dicing the field up pretty well. He said after teh game that he “had never seen the field as clearly as that game,” which is really saying something.

My guess is that he was never as prepared with as good of info as what McD fed them going into that game. In a lot of ways, that game was the climax of the season… too bad it was only week 5.

There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.

formerly Styg-like

by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 21, 2010 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Orton's progression

This season sadly wasn’t consistent, mainly because of injury, Washington could have been another NE in my mind. Hopefully this next season could be injury free.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 3:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

Stats don't lie

I can’t find the post, but someone in the past showed three sets of statistics blind, and asked which quarterback you’d pick. One set seemed obvious. Turned out, those were Orton’s stats. The other QBs? Eli Manning and Carson Palmer. People love those two. Why does everyone hate Orton?

I’m curious what happens to Orton’s stats with a few improvements on the Broncos. Don’t forget, we firesaled about a half of 2008s team, with a good portion of those players not even in the leagueanymore. To say we are rebuilding is not a stretch.

Is Orton the next Peyton or Elway. I think we’d all agree on that one. But is he better than a majority of NFL quarterbacks? I’d say yes.

Why not focus your attention on other areas of the team that need to be improved? Stop hating on Orton.

Still got your Creedence...

by OutOfYourElement on Mar 21, 2010 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions  

Quarterback

Is not an immediate need our team has, while not having an elite quarterback, we are pretty stable in that area.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't consider that much of an argument

Since Eli is only considered an elite QB by being on the coattails of his brother, and Palmer hasn’t been “himself” for about three seasons. None of them have done much.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.

by improv88 on Mar 21, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Superbowl ring

Oh, haven’t done much. I guess a Superbowl victory doesn’t mean as much as it used to… :)

Still got your Creedence...

by OutOfYourElement on Mar 21, 2010 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

Just a question

When the Giants made to the SB and won, did it EVER cross your mind that Eli was the primary reason? Didn’t think so.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.

by improv88 on Mar 21, 2010 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sure had a good season that year

Much better than most, plus he did a pretty good job in the SB as well.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Eli is considered a top 10 QB

And has done pretty well himself, both Eli and Palmer have lead their teams to the playoffs, while other good quarterbacks who many consider top 10 like Flacco, Ryan or Romo have both struggled to do that multiple times.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great point

Orton is a good quarterback, while not elite, he does a fine job, and is above average in almost every way.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 11:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

And you really have a chip on your shoulder

All of those stats are mediocre. The bottom line that Kyle’s yards accounted for next to nothing on the scoreboard. I mentioned in another post that he ranked 20th in the NFL in TD per attempt, and 24th in Yards-to-TD ratio. He doesn’t get the job done on the scoreboard and he never has in the NFL. 62% in this offense is mediocre – in fact, in the NFL is middle-of-the pack. The bottom line is that all of Orton’s statistics bear out to a middle of the pack QB

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.

by improv88 on Mar 21, 2010 12:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Slightly better

My point was only that he is better than average. There are atleast 16 teams in the league that wished they had Orton.

There is plenty of room for improvement on this team (QB included), and that certainly includes the offense. This is not all Orton’s fault.

Still got your Creedence...

by OutOfYourElement on Mar 21, 2010 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

Have to disagree
There are at least 16 teams in the league that wished they had Orton.

If that many teams considered him a legitimate upgrade, SOMEONE would bite on the 1st round pick tender.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.

by improv88 on Mar 21, 2010 12:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Its obvious

that you want Orton gone.

I think you’re mis-reading my comments. I just think he’s a “B” quarterback who takes care of the ball pretty well. I’d like to see what the Broncos could do if they focused their efforts on the other parts of the team that need improvement. Trust me, there are many areas.

Still got your Creedence...

by OutOfYourElement on Mar 21, 2010 5:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cutler's quarterback rating: 77.4. . .Kyle Orton's 86.8 That's a pretty wide margin of surrounded talent level let down.

They were both 20th in the league out of 40 starters, so I guess being 50% in the league would make both of them ‘mediocre’. The problem as I see it is, both players went to two different systems and schemes and had a fairly good year. What makes Cutler stand out is his INT production and there should have been several (not a few) more and that tells me he isn’t the kind of quarterback I would want running my offense. It’s awful discouraging when the team can’t count on him when the chips are down. That will knock down a teams pysche faster then anything. I’ll give both of these guys a pass for last season’s mediocre performance and count it off as learning the system.

by bfree2bronc on Mar 21, 2010 6:03 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

This is another area wher Orton truly excelled

When it comes to protecting the ball the Broncos 23 turnovers were good enough for 7th place in the league. The 6 teams ahead of them? All playoff teams.

It also rated 4th all time for any Broncos team. The three teams ahead of them? 2005 Broncos (AFC Championship game favorite) and the 1997 and 1998 Broncos (both superbowl winning teams).

If Protecting the ball matters, well, Orton has us covered…

There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.

formerly Styg-like

by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 21, 2010 6:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for saying

What I was thinking.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 8:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

While partly true

Cutler had the same problem. And look at Steven Jackson, 4 TD for 1416 yards, that 354 yards per TD, but no one would say he is mediocre. While Orton is not elite, he is above average.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Cutler's numbers

Oddly, Cutler’s numbers were significantly better than Orton’s in these two categories this past season. He was tied for 12th TDs per attempt, and 10th in Yards-to-TD ratio.

As for Jackson, the fact that he does what he does on a team that bad is astounding. Orton had weapons galore at his disposal.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.

by improv88 on Mar 21, 2010 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not this past season

The last season with the Broncos, he put up huge yards, yet they couldn’t put up the points.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think he needs more than one or 2 more years to really flow in the offense.

I know I’ll get lynched for that, but I explained it at length in one of the Orton posts.

To me, benching a QB is like forcing a politician or businessman to resign for mishandling a situation. No one allows a learning curve any more. No one can be prepared for every situation. Most people seem to think that screwing up should cost someone his job. But when you see a guy who has made a lot of mistakes, you see a guy who has a lot of experience to draw upon in future situations. THis is an example – so don’t think I’m getting into politics here. George Bush grossly mishandled the Katrina situation by most accounts. But, if faced with another hurricane or similar humanitarian disaster, I would think Bush would really know what to do. Maybe it should be the head of FEMA who learned the most. I don’t know. In any case, experience, even failure, is the best teacher. I hate firing a guy for mishandling a situation and getting a new guy with no experience. He is expected to do everything perfectly the first time. Imagine if students were treated that way! A teacher teaches them to do a new type of math problem, sends them home with homework to practice doing it, and the kid goes home, does all the problems, and has a misconception in the process. He misses all the problems. Does the teacher give him an “F” in the gradebook for the first trial? Not if the teacher is decent at what he does! The teacher coaches the student in the misconception, and gives the student some more practice. By the same token, if the teacher does give the kid an “F” on the first night’s homework, the principal should not fire the teacher, she should coach him up! To fire him for one mistake, even one he should know better, means you have to replace him with someone else who might make even worse mistakes. You’re better off letting people gel.

The one offense a QB should be benched/released for is failing to take coaching or lack of initiative in self-improvement. By most accounts, the previous guy wouldn’t take new coaching.

Orton will, and I think Brady Quinn and Brandstater will. I am happy if the best QB wins out, and, say, Quinn just outplays Orton in practice. If someone proves he is better than Orton, give that guy a job. But if Orton throws a few picks and loses a game or two, benching him will destroy the season. Trying to put a second string guy in just because the first guy is struggling rarely works, and it creates lockerroom rifts and anger among the fanbase.

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Mar 21, 2010 9:00 AM MDT up reply actions  

So true

People need the chance to grow and develop, but cutting or pulling them early you hurt both the team and the player. It increases the chance of missing a good player, and you have to cycle them in and out till you find a great one, which could take years.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 9:30 AM MDT up reply actions  

RIght.

It’s like QB roulette. You never know what you’re going to get. One guy could just click suddenly (see Brees). Or he could just continue to go downhill (Cutler, 2009).

I think all the posts about Orton and his peronality type have been fascinating, but the bottom line is that we really are dealing with probability here. There’s no way to predict whether Orton will be a 6 or a 1 on the next roll, on the next play.

We can only do our best to increase his experience and hope he improves. But you’re right, the revolving door approach isn’t good for anyone.

-Harvey J. Neptune

"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi

by HarvJNep2n on Mar 21, 2010 9:40 AM MDT up reply actions  

No real better option

While Orton has yet to be a top 10 QB, he has yet to regress, get worse, or even not improve. He is fairly steady. While I doubt he will put up 4500-5000 yards and 30+ TD’s I think he will still improve from last season, especially if he can stay healthy.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions  

I feel Ortons biggest weakness

Is pocket awareness, he seems to be a half a second slow when it comes to recognizing/ moving up,back, laterally in the pocket, getting rid of the ball (either to a reciever or away) quicker. If he can learn that I think he would be a very good QB.

by broncos314 on Mar 20, 2010 10:55 PM MDT reply actions  

I thought so to

But after going back and looking, I found whenever he did get sacked, most of the time he got hit, he managed to cover the ball, and protect it. While not having lighting reflexes, he still did a good job of not fumbling.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 12:13 AM MDT up reply actions  

Well, he had a lot of time to learn that skill in Chicago. :p

"All by their heads, he places crowns."

"Brandon Marshall isn't as good as you think he is." - a random hobo I met

by Tempestuous Binary on Mar 21, 2010 5:42 AM MDT up reply actions  

I didnt write it first

But to the poster who wrote it first.. THANK YOU

If were writing posts about why Orton should be the QB is that really a good thing… make all the arguements about him all you want.. The writing is on the wall.

You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?

You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen

by johnnystarr on Mar 20, 2010 11:56 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks

I know I’m just repeating what others are saying, and I don’t mean to beat a dead horse, but I just wanted to look at some info rather than start an argument. i realize i’ll probably get less rec’s or comments, but I want to do my part in the community.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 12:15 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good stuff MAx

You’re posts are definite discussions pieces. You should keep writing and not worry about the Rec’s because your definitely going to get the comments. You bring a lot to this community and we’re lucky to have you.

That being said, I still dont like Orton!

You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?

You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen

by johnnystarr on Mar 21, 2010 7:09 AM MDT up reply actions  

Haha

Well I don’t think Orton will ever have a real following bigger than his family and close friends, I like to support who ever is leading my team.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions  

weight room

given that’s it’s next to impossible to improve his athletic ability, orton will be in the weight room toughening up, for when he inevitably gets destroyed by the pass rush again

by lolcopter on Mar 21, 2010 3:01 PM MDT reply actions  

Good insight

And I should have done a better job on the poll, but what I meant there was improving agility and speed. But I do agree, building a bit more muscle is a good thing for Orton to do.

My emptiness says it doesn't care.

by maxwellsdemon on Mar 21, 2010 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

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