Trends
One of the things I like about MHR are the many posts that give information. John Bena, Jeremy Bolander, Steve Nichols, Tim Lynch, TJ Johnson, Sayre Bedinger, BShrout and ejruiz do a first rate job of feeding us information. Others, like Emmett Smith, etc. add by reacting, expanding, explaining and filling in.
I’ve come to like analysis and speculation about the game of football almost as much as I like the actual games. As a result the off-season can be a highlight for me.
I’d like to do another post (did one earlier on the Building of the Team which concentrated on roster discussion) on another topic that many on this site talk about and which is intriguing for me – “Trends”.
One of the most interesting things for me about the NFL is to see the variety of trends develop and the way they cause other trends. Some of the trends are obvious, some less so. Some have been around for a while, some are relatively new, some are just developing (perhaps just in my own mind), and some are anticipated (perhaps just hoped for in my imagination). Most are interconnected along cause and effect progression. Some reflect an evolving situation. This is all pretty theoretical and vague. I’m trying to make it more concrete and specific in my own mind and so thought I’d try to put in into some random thoughts (I expect to revise and rewrite this as I go along and as I get responses).
I’d like to have a discussion about some of the more recent trends I see and about some of those I anticipate.
Some of this may be pretty obvious and boring. If so, I’m sorry. I’ going to start with the more general and then try to get more specific.
Overall Trends (IMO mostly pretty obvious)
1. Athletes overall are becoming bigger, stronger, and faster. Some positions reflect this dramatically. For others, like RB and LB, the definition of the prototype has changed (for RB from quick and elusive or powerful and grinding to extremely versatile in run, pass, and blocking or tackling skills).
2. Best athletes available is expanding from the RBs and WRs of the past to WRs, CB, and LBs today. In addition, the quality of OLs & DLs is increasingly significantly as is their importance in the scheme of things.
3. To find even the slightest advantage, both offensive and defensive systems are becoming increasingly complicated demanding players be increasingly intelligent.
Strategic trends
1. Offense is now more pass than run oriented (obvious trend). The old NFL saw about establishing the run first has become an obsolete slogan (still often repeated as a kind of mantra of “universal truth”). Few teams stake their success on it anymore. Now the run (while still important) complements and sets up the pass and not the other way around.
2. To compensate for #1, defenses: first increased the size and mobility of the front seven (bigger faster DLs and LBs) giving premium status to DE pass rushers who could contain the run but who could especially harassed the QB; then developed various and complicated blitz packages (zone, flood, safety, etc), and cover schemes (zone, cover 2, etc); then switched from 4-3 to 3-4 (more later). These packages made frequent use of specialized personnel.
3. Offenses then started to go “hurry up” and “no huddle” to counter the various packages which often required specialized personnel, by limiting the ability to substitute freely.
4. Defenses are beginning to counter “hurry up” and “no huddle” with what I call “amoeba” defenses using versatile personnel and masking formations (with few players in set stances or positions) with players in fluid pre-snap positions.
Consequential trends
1. Players are bigger - At some positions, the overall size is increasing at a noticeable rate. Not long ago the 300+lb lineman, either on defense or offense, was the rarity. Now it is the standard. (Lyle Alzado {RIP}, whom I happened to have known, was considered big, weighed around 260-270 lbs and admitted using steroids to get there; he would not be invited to the combine today for size alone not to mention the steroid use). In the past few TEs weighed over 220 lbs. Now all do. RBs regularly weighed under 200 lbs. Now almost none do. Dan Fouts was almost considered a freak QB at 6’5”. That’s close to standard today; to be a freak QB you’d have to be closer to 7’0”.
2. Players are quicker - Not only are the athletes bigger but they are noticeably faster, quicker and more agile. This is most noticeable and significant in linemen and linebackers (WRs, CBs have always been quick). This increased speed has IMO changed the NFL more than any other single thing (more about this in later specific trends).
3. Players and coaches are smarter - The change in the size and quickness of the available personnel has changed the way the game is played and prepared for. More options, more variety, more subtleties come into play. Situations are analyzed and confronted. Special formation and personnel packages are no longer occasional features. They have become standard. The concept of “starters” is fluid and seldom very important. Players are “one down”, “two down”, or “three down” players. “Situations require specific formations and personnel – “packages”. As a result, both offenses and defenses have become more complicated. Coaches and players now must have an additional skill – “brains” or “smarts”.
4. Because, in the past, teams developed their defenses to stop the run first of all and then face the pass, offenses began to change the emphasis and build around the pass, with the run as support. It was a gradual change ( in the past some great former teams passed a lot and won a lot – but teams that could run won crucial games). Today few would contend that New Orleans, Indianapolis, Minnesota, New England, or Pittsburgh were “run first” teams. They may have good runners who are important to their strategy; but they are not “run first” teams. I don’t want to get into a discussion about when and how the change took place. I’ve not been able to clearly analyze it for my own satisfaction and don’t think it’s crucial for my point. As a result of the trend toward emphasis on passing, elements of the passing game rose to the top in priorities – i.e. QBs, WRs, pass blocking schemes and personnel, especially the OLT.
5. The concept of “team” becomes increasingly important not just for morale and coordination, but because the skill set at one position affects the priorities of skill sets at other positions. For instance, with a massive run stuffing NT the ILBs can be more mobile and pass coverage oriented. With a smaller and more pass rush skilled front three the ILBs will have to be bigger and more important in the run game. In addition, packages on both offense and defense can be especially specific with regard to down, distance and game situation. More about this in the next section.
Specific trends
Offense
1. The QB is regarded as the key to the offense (I remember when it was actually the RB – i.e. Jim Brown, Gale Sayers, Walter Payton, even as recently as LaDamian Tomlinson, etc.) and a “Franchise QB” is every teams fantasy. No player gets more attention (or criticism) than the QB and no player can rise (or fall) faster in estimation.
2. The prototype QB must be tall (at least 6’3” – 6’5” better) to see and throw over the rushing linemen (passing lanes are becoming unpredictable if not scarce with the new defensive strategies); extremely accurate on short to medium range passes; with quick reading abilities (“quick smarts” or “speed intelligence” I like to call it – not necessarily IQ stuff). Mobility and an elite arm are fine and very helpful; but not essential ingredients. (Elway was very mobile early in his career and had a rifle for an arm: but his greatest asset IMO was not his arm or mobility, it was his “speed intelligence” which improved with experience [for which he gets little credit] and which resulted in four SB appearances and two rings. He had better instincts about defenses than any QB at his time and before, with the possible exception of Johnny Unitas). IMO Peyton Manning and Tom Brady are the current prototypes of this kind of QB though neither have John’s arm or mobility.
3. Offensive lines have become bigger and are increasingly groomed for pass protection first. Zone blocking schemes are downgraded (zone blocking being more run oriented) in favor of power blocking schemes. Zone blocking schemes, though somewhat useful for pass blocking, suited mobile QBs (like Elway and Plummer) better than less mobile ones (like Griese and Orton – or Manning and Brady).
4. WR are increased in number and in size.
5. FBs pretty much disappear.
6. RBs evolved from power and/or elusive backs to versatile players who can run, receive and block.
7. TEs first evolved from primarily run blockers to receivers, than (with the increasing move to 3-4 defenses) to pass and run blockers and receivers (versatility again). The number and variety of the use of TE increases noticeably (see Steve Nichols MHR University – Weighted Formations). Sets now include multiple TEs as well.
Defense
1. 3-4 defenses became popular to counter the trend to pass orientation on offense. They are also regarded as able to use available personnel more flexibly. Notice the frequent 4-3 and even more frequent 5-2 looks that it morphs into.
2. The front three of the defense are key.
- Prototypical DTs are: Big, strong and quick – over 300lbs (as big as possible for the NT hopefully without losing comparable mobility), excellent at 2 gap control, quick to collapse the pocket and able to harass the QB. They are intended to do as many of the following things as possible: control the inside run lanes and push the pocket back into the QB’s face reducing the pocket space, diminishing the passing lanes, and cause at least discomfort if not fear in the QB. Ideally the front three occupy all five of the OL and dominate them.
- However, in reality, skill sets are more individual. DTs may or may not be able to control two gaps. They may or may not be able to push the pocket. They may or may not be able to harassed the QB. Depending on individual skill sets different combinations of DTs can be used for specific situations – down and distance, game situation, etc.
- The most important defensive player becomes the NT. His skill set determines the possibilities, first of all, across the rest of the front seven and then for the whole defense.
3. The back eight of the 3-4 defense complement the front three. They adjust to the situation – down, distance, personnel, etc.
4. With Prototypical DTs the back eight control behind the line of scrimmage – ILBs and Ss in the middle; OLBs and CBs on the edges.
- They are intended to read and react to the pass first and but able to close quickly on the run which hopefully is pretty much confined by the front three and OLBs to a cut between the DGs and OLBs.
- Consequently, the back eight should be quick and able to make quick reads and quick reactions.
- The middle four Ss and ILBs should be able to control the middle of the field, both short and long passing and mop up any runner who might get past the front three (or five). Tackling, quick reads, and quick reactions (“quick smarts”) are the most important skills. Size and speed are added benefits.
- OLBs change the most, becoming in some situations OLB/DEs or even DEs. Run containment is a top priority. Short pass coverage both on slants and outs is another priority (height helps on the outs). Pass rushing is another top priority. The prototypical OLB should be able to contain (fend off TE or OG), check slants, knock down short outs and rush the passer, all depending on the scheme and read.
- CB’s top priority is pass coverage, with run support as a back up.
5. With less than prototypical DTs or when specialized personnel are called for, the back eight changes its “identify” to adapt. Likewise, if the DTs lack any of the prototypical ingredients adjustments have to be made elsewhere.
- When the DTs (especially in the case of the NT) are not able to control all of the gaps, or when one or both of the DGs are mostly DEs with pass rushing skills, one or both OLBs can become DEs with run containment skills, one or both ILBs can become run first oriented (big and strong enough to take on OL blockers), and/or Ss can be brought closer for run support.
- Likewise, if DTs are especially good at gap control, OLBs can become pass rushing DEs and ILBs can be used in pass coverage or extensively in blitz situations.
- Other adjustments to personnel skill sets can be made to develop the schemes that are most effective given the personnel available. For instance, a prototypical NT (Wilfork) and DG (Seymour) could be complimented by either a containment DG or a pass rushing DE.
- Frequently, the 3-4 must become a 5-2 (where 5 DL match one on one with the 5 OL), especially when the front three are not able to maintain gap control and push the pocket. The 5-2’s effectiveness consequently depends on the quality of the matchups and the versatility of the ILBs. In a 5-2 situation the backfield becomes a more circumscribed unit, playing its own schemes in tandem with the front seven.
6. In the 3-4 versatility applies not just to players, but especially to coaches. They must be able to evaluate personnel and develop adaptable schemes that make the best use of the players available – “help them to succeed”.
Developing or potential trends (as I envision them)
Offense
1. To frustrate the potential situational packages which make use of the variety of sets and skills available on a defensive unit, offenses will increasingly use “no huddle” or “hurry up” offenses to limit the reliance on situational packages and specialized personnel and to control the flow of the play forcing the defenses to play in all situations of down and distance. It intends to force defensive personnel to play all situations, even those for which they are least suited putting a limit on the effectiveness of “specialists” and a premium on “versatile” players (3 down players).
2. To counter the importance of the NT on defense, the OC will increasingly become the most important player on the OL with a skill set equal to and even, if possible, surpassing that of the OLT. Size, strength and mobility will matter. One on one control by the OC of the NT will increasingly become a high priority. If attained, one on one control of the NT will greatly enhance the potential of any running game. Likewise, OGs will become increasingly important to help insure that the pocket can be controlled for a more diverse and extended (down field) passing game.
3. WRs will become increasingly known for their ability to adjust their patterns to the defense as opposed to being known for their speed or athletic ability (“quick smarts”).
4. RBs will be platooned not so much for the variety of skill sets, but just because with the increased size and speed of defensive players, endurance over the course of a game and a season will require at least two versatile RBs.
Defense
1. To counter the trend to “no huddle” or “hurry up” offenses, defenses will assume more “amoeba” schemes. Only a few players will actually set before the snap (DT?). The rest will meander around several potential placements and sets, with little indication of scheme until the ball is actually snapped. The ability to quickly close into a scheme will become a high priority.
2. Along this same “amoeba” theme, the back seven will indicate little pre-snap. Most pre-snap looks will look either like man coverage or like zone coverage, but in actuality will be one of several potential “match-up zone” coverages which, while looking like man coverages quickly morph into zones or into limited or area zones.
Some random consequential thoughts
1. Peyton Hillis, as much as I liked him, just didn’t seem to have the “quick smarts” to thrive in this offensive system. He anticipated, overreacted, and just plain missed assignments (maybe he missed the point) of the whole thing. He did well in 2008 in the simplified situation of a desperate replacement, but would IMO struggle as a reliant part of a complex system. I wish him well.
2. Drafting OL early in this year’s draft, even OTs (maybe especially OTs), would not surprise me. Upgrading the OL is IMO crucial for the future. If by chance, Russell Okung, Bryan Bulaga or Anthony Davis fell to #11, I’d not be surprised if we bit. IMO they’re all better choices than Pouncey or Iupati at #11. Likewise, the day of OGs and OCs never being picked in the early rounds is over IMO.
3. I don’t expect much trading up or down in the draft. Extra picks for the Broncos this year IMO are a fantasy. If a preferred or coveted pick is not available for a team at their slot, there are plenty of good options that do not involve the surrendering of draft picks. I’d be surprised to hear of any feelers from teams wanting to trade up surrendering draft picks. The only extra picks will come from the trade of players and they likely will not be as high as we might hope.
4. The BPA plays very large in my analysis. Each quality player added to the team affects many of the other positions and how they can be utilized. For instance, a Terrence Cody will affect the whole defensive structure in a different way than Dan Williams will – or Cam Thomas (I like all three). But if Eric Berry were somehow available, ignoring him by filling a bigger perceived need with an even slightly less gifted player would IMO be a mistake. IMO winners are built more around quality players and adaptable coaching than around filling needs. Drafting BPA eventually will fill all needs nicely and with higher quality players. And good coaches find ways to help their players to succeed. Their task is greatly enhanced with good quality players.
5. With a dominating OL, Tony Scheffler’s value as a Bronco IMO oddly enough rises somewhat significantly. If the front five OL can control the front five DL in a prototypical 3-4, the role of the TE changes somewhat. (When the Leonard Davis “mistake” was first reported as “interesting”, I nearly blacked out. Davis is a player I’d willingly trade BM for even up.) I’m not saying Scheffler will remain a Bronco, but “it could happen”.
6. DTs will increasingly play large. And they will always be among the rare players available. (How many Ted Washingtons are there?) Last year the Broncos did not have anyone able to control two gaps. And they, unfortunately, didn’t have the personnel to compensate for this lack. This year they’ve made a start at correcting the situation with FAs, but IMO will have to further address it in the draft.
Of the four NTs most frequently mentioned in this year’s draft – Terrence Cody, Cam Thomas, Joseph Linval and Dan Williams – I doubt that more than two will come close to reflecting the prototypical NT. Maybe, in some cases they might become a DT/DG. Controlling two gaps is not easy. Pushing the pocket is also not easy. I’m definitely not convinced that Dan Williams obviously has the best shot (he does have a shot – don’t get me wrong). In my perfect world I’d have Jamal Williams, Justin Bannan and either Marcus Thomas, Ronald Fields, or Chris Baker backed up by Cody, Williams and either Thomas or Joseph Linval. Maybe Cody and one of the three – Dan Williams, Cam Thomas or Joseph Linval – would be enough. (I still have high hopes for Marcus Thomas and Chris Baker, as you can see, but possibly as DTs and not NTs). Having the depth of the young ones learning from the veterans makes sense to me.
This is as far as I’ve gotten. I’m still thinking. Everyone on this sight gets me thinking for which I’m thankful. I’d appreciate your thoughts.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Comments
This is great
This analysis is pretty good, I’m no expert on every little part of football, but the shifting trends have become more obvious. This is well done.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
You've done well, Padawan......Rec'd
Abide, the dude does. Know you not, but comfort in that I take.
great read! I too am old enough to remember when the RB was king.
P.S.:I hate to pick but I’m pretty sure Mr. Elway had 5 SB appearances before he earned his 2 rings.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
Five total appearances. Losses to Washington, NYG, and SF before wins against GB and ATL.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein
No you're not.
I wish I could forget all three, you’re one up on me.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
Kudos to you for excellent work and rec'd
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
Great point about the OC
With NT’s looking to consistantly draw the double team to free up the linebackers in a 3-4 it makes perfect sense for offenses to try to make that a 1-1 matchup to negate the NT’s effectiveness.. quite prophetic Ivan the not so bad, does this mean we will see the emergence of massive & dominating OC’s over the next few years?
Great thoughts Rec’d
IMO has to happen
IMO the OC will become the “center pieces” (pun intended) of the OL to offset the 3-4 trend to massive NTs. If it were me, I’d take the biggest, meanest OT in the draft and feature him as my center – i.e Anthony Davis or Bryan Bulaga in rd 1, Bladimir Ducasse in rd 2, or Jared Veldheer in rd #3.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 21, 2010 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions
interesting idea
but you need a really athletic guy to do that.
That’s not something we could do at the moment, because we need a solution at C for the upcoming year, and none of those guys would be ready to play center next year
by black_knight101 on Mar 21, 2010 6:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Trends...
The prototypical OC should be able to handle the prototypical NT. Prototypes seldom exist – at least not immediately.
IMO last year we lacked even adequate OC, if not adequate front three on offense against 3-4 defenses. Almost anything will be an upgrade. Who will fit those positions is uncertain right now. It may be that those already added to the roster will be able to do it. A couple of unknown quantities there – i.e. Batiste, Fry, McChesney, Olsen, etc. Maybe even Polumbus, or Hochstein can succeed with the larger over all OL.
But the prototypical goal, IMO, will be to reach the point where the front three of the OL can control the front three of a 3-4 defense. Maybe it takes a year or two.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Very good comment, ivan
Rec’d. My only difference is that while I respect Hochstein’s versatility, the more I saw of his play at guard, the less convinced I was that he can handle that position. I hope that he proves me wrong if he plays there next season.
It all starts with the lines
I tend to agree
I think Hochstein was kept primarily for his special teams play and in special situations. That he might be an emergency fill-in along the line is also probably hoped for. I also don’t currently see him as a starter, unless, next to two studs he might better be able to hold his own. But, we’ll see.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions
It appears that this is the case
unless, next to two studs he might better be able to hold his own.
Otherwise, why would they keep him?
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Great work and rec'd ivan...Thanks.
Marcus Thomas as you may or may not realize has opted out of OTA’s and loses 100 grand (if all truth’s be known that is) and is in Florida trimming down to play DG/DE. The writing was pretty much on the wall for him and I suspect that McD/Wink gave him an ultimatum to switch or he’d be shown the door like Peterson. I think this will be a good move on McD and Thomas’ part, because it tells a story of how they feel about him. Let’s hope the transition is successful. BTW, I would love to see Cam Thomas get selected by the Broncos. He and Dan Williams are running neck and neck imo contrary to popular belief.
You combined the DJ and MT stories...
DJ lost 100,000 and is in Florida. Marcus is going to show up to OTAs, but he wants to get down to 292 first.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Great work and reading
Would like to see Derrrick Morgan drafted to play DE and OLB has a high motor and rushes the QB in a simular way Elvis does.
oc60
Unrelated to this post (sorry didn't know where to put it):
Does anyone know of a site with automatically updating open-threads that pertains to politics/news?
Just curious…thanks.
(Nice post btw).
"C" is for Championship...that's good enough for meeeee!!!
i'm still not confident that this is a past first league...(maybe it was last year)...
…but one year doesn’t mean anything. Defenses will adjust, and establishing a run will become more important next year.
Other than that, this was fantastic.
by black_knight101 on Mar 21, 2010 6:53 PM MDT reply actions
umm...
have you been watching football since the Broncos lost to the Steelers in ’05? That was the swan song for the running game. It was already mostly a myth—people that point to the correlation between teams with good ground stats and winning tend to ignore the fact that causation is almost certainly non-existent there since most of those running yards come in the fourth quarter/second half since the teams that win more often are able to kill clock effectively.
The NFL has been a pass-first league for half-a-decade now. Just look at what the pats were able to do in ’07.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Where do you see "run first"?
I have difficulty thinking of any successful team as being “run first”. The Vikings had arguably the best running tandem in Peterson and Taylor. But this year was considered an ‘off year’ for them, yet they won more games than previously. The Jets ran well, but they had a rookie QB and a great defense. Probably would have done better if they had a better passing game.
But NE, NO, IND, SD, Pitts, – none of them are know for their running games, though some have good RBs.
If you have better evidence, I so far haven’t seen it.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 21, 2010 7:09 PM MDT reply actions
Further
Lots of teams think they’re just a franchise QB away from a SB.
Don’t know of any team that thinks they’re just a great RB away from a SB.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 21, 2010 7:11 PM MDT reply actions
Great post - recd
I love your work here. I couldn’t agree more with many of the trends you’ve pointed out and what they mean for the League. A couple of points that I thought of while I was reading were:
1) I’m glad you emphasized the importance of NT. This is, IMO, where the Broncos need to focus on a long-term answer (J. Williams may work out well, be he’s not long term). Which is also why I’ve been touting T. Cody at the #11 pick. As I’ve said elsewhere, he’s clearly very raw, but I think backing up J.Williams he can learn how to be a monster in the middle. These guys make sick money once they’re established, and so being able to draft and groom one HAS to be a high priority of any team running the 3-4.
2) You mentioned CBs, but only briefly. I think you can’t underestimate the role of these players given the passing-trend that you mentioned. Cover corners are a rare prize in the League these days (ie – Bailey, Asomugha, Revis) – so much so that even good cover CB’s who don’t tackle (Cromartie) are still viewed as hot commodities (I think it was Prime Time was the one who started the trend of CBs being cover guys only).
3) Another trend that I think you could add in here is the emergence of WRs who are INCREDIBLE athletes but just don’t have great hands. I think a lot of college WRs who would be great playmakers are overlooked these days, or drafted only for special teams roles, because they don’t have lightning 40 times and 40" verticals. (T.O., Roy Williams, Braylon Edwards, D. Bowe, S. Smith (NYG), and the list goes on and on….)
4) I also love your point re the importance of interior OL, and I agree that the days of letting these players slip down the draft board is over. IMHO, a pro bowl center or guard (in Hamilton’s spot) last year could have been the difference maker for the Broncos b/t a 2-8 finish and the playoffs.
Anwyay, great post. Thanks.
"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty
Cody at #11
is a horrible reach. We can get him at 45, if we even want him.
On #3—did you watch Mr. Bey last year? Players whose sole job is to catch the ball (and block) will never get drafted if they can run fast but can’t catch…unless they run fast enough for the crypt keeper…
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Good point...
..on Heyward-Bey – he’s another WR that confirms the trend.
As far as Cody goes, I simply disagree. I’m sorry, but there’s just no way the only true 3-4 NT in the draft drops out of the first round. For reference, see the current market for 3-4 NTs – these guys are like gold in the NFL:
Pickett, GB – Huge contract
Wilfork, NE – Huge contract
Franklin – Huge contract
Hampton, PIT – Huge contract
"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty
by SteveAssassin on Mar 22, 2010 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Sorry Assassin
Said almost the same thing you did. I was writing it as you posted.
At least we agree!
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 4:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Side comment
I thought Wilfork was better when Seymour was next to him than after. He just seemed like dominating. Or have I missed something.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 4:18 PM MDT up reply actions
The only 'true' NT?
While I understand what you’re trying to say, I don’t see it that way. I think that what’s being claimed here is that a ‘real’ NT is over 330 lb. If you look around the league, that’s just not the case. Some are, sure, but the specific scheme – Bullough vs. Phillips, single gap vs. two gap – matters just as much. Vince Wilfork is no less a NT because he’s at 325, nor is Jay Ratliff less of one at 305. I haven’t heard anyone claim (rationally) that Casey Hampton isn’t a ‘real’ NT, and he’s 320. SD won all of their games in November and December with a rotation of NTs, none of whom were over 310. They want to add Vaughn Martin next year, who is 320 (and still dropping). NTs vary from 300 to 350, depending on scheme, and all of them are ‘true’ NTs.
It all starts with the lines
I see your point..
..but, I didn’t (and wouldn’t) set weight as the determining factor in considering a NT or any other prospect (which also happens to be why I am not down on Cody after he showed up at the Senior Bowl overweight).
What I meant by ‘true NT’ was certainly a Bullough/2-gap NT, because this is the most prevalent style in the NFL, and the style that McD is used to (to my knowledge, the 1-gap Phillips is only used by DAL & SD – and even still, SD’s 3-4 was previously based on a massive, block-eating NT in Jamal Williams, who isn’t exactly built as a 1-gapper). Additionally, in a Phillips 3-4, most strong DT’s can be transitioned in to play NT, as their responsibility to get penetration remains roughly the same.
Anyway, IMHO, Cody is the only player in the draft with the size, strength, athleticism and experience to be a real 2-gap NT prospect (the only exception to this, IMO, might be Cam Thomas, although he didn’t have anywhere near the real-game impact that Cody had in college).
"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty
by SteveAssassin on Mar 23, 2010 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
size is an issue
see below. as is work ethic…there’s a reason he fell as far as he did…
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Fell where?
The 2010 Draft hasn’t occurred yet.
"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty
by SteveAssassin on Mar 23, 2010 3:32 PM MDT up reply actions
in peoples' eyes?
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Emmett – variations on a theme
I probably could have been more clear in my comments about the DL. In this post, I’m trying to sense or anticipate trends for the 3-4. In a way, I see variations on a theme likely (which I think is one of your points). The anticipated goals for the three "down" defensive linemen are (in varying order of importance):
1. Stop the run up the middle;
2. Occupy as many OL as possible;
3. Push the pocket into the face of the QB:
4. Harass the QB.
Specific schemes can emphasize different things.
If a scheme emphasizes harassing a QB, they may prefer penetrating linemen to two gap linemen. Good penetrating linemen may occupy four or even five OL. However, theoretically (and by reputation) this emphasis is weaker at stopping the run.
Likewise, if a scheme emphasizes stopping the run and occupying as many OL as possible they may be weaker at pushing the pocket or harassing the QB.
A particular scheme may reflect a team’s defensive philosophical preference; it may reflect an adaptation to available personnel; or it may vary by the situation – i.e. down and distance, etc.
A team may even have two separate down 3 DTs for different situations – run or pass – to maximize the use of players with various skill sets (Bannan, Williams and Fields [run] versus Baker, Green and Thomas [pass]). However, ‘no huddle’ or ‘hurry up’ offenses may limit the ability to use two sets effectively.
"Prototypical" DTs (which may only exist in theory) would be able to do the first three while also able to make the adaptation to "penetration" when the situation calls for it. They’d theoretically have to be very big, very strong, quick with great block shedding technique. And the NT would be the key to the preferred skill set at the other positions.
That any specific player is not "prototypical" (perhaps even an impossibility) doesn’t exclude him from success in the 3-4 scheme used by a team in situations. His specific skill set may make him a 2 down or 3 down (perhaps even a 1 down) player.
I think, I agree with your point, that the word "true" is possibly too restrictive.
But I do see a change developing in the way that down linemen are perceived, especially with regard to the NT. Which means IMO some who have been successful in the past will not be so in the future.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 23, 2010 2:34 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Cody has me vassilating...
Cody is the kind of player that will move up the board.
First of all, he’s really the only NT in this draft with the prototypical size (not many Ted Washington’s around). Teams who are moving to 3-4 will seriously consider him even counting the risk.
Secondly, I saw him listed at 370lbs during the year, then 355lbs, a couple of weeks before the combine, the at 349lbs at the combine. If you consider his ideal playing weight as somewhere around 340lbs, he’s getting there.
I can no longer guarantee that he’ll be available at #45. So what to do.
Currently, I’d pick one of top 3 or 4 OTs if they fall to #11, or Berry or Haden, if they don’t.
Then hope that Cody does fall to #45. And if he doesn’t, try to land someone like Cam Thomas later on and hope he can bulk up some (I’m still a little cool about Dan Williams at #11). But, “I reserve the right to change my mind.”
(I, BTW, am not counting on additional picks in the first two rds. If they happen they will more likely come from the trade of players, than from finding a willing partner with which to trade down.)
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 4:15 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought he balooned for the combine?
Or was that the senior bowl?
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
He balooned for something. Weighed in at 378.
Sorry I don’t want another Gilbert Brown.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Senior Bowl
And I worry about him dropping thirty pounds in time for the Combine…such yo-yoing of his weight makes injuries inevitable, I think.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Latest I saw was 349 lbs for Cody
The Walter Draft site says Cody weighed in at 349 on his Pro Day, with the following comment, “so much for not being able to control his weight!”
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 23, 2010 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions
above
that’s what makes me worry.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
surprised you didn't mention B.Price
I really like his tape….really stout with good leverage IMO. He isn’t NT size, but definitely NG size.
Love the analysis! The thing is only some of the coaches teams are thinking like this. These are what I would term the chess teams. The other teams are focused on doing their thing and doing it well. For instance, while the Colts think this way, they are in the latter group. While this mode of thinking is becoming predominant, it makes it easier for teams with different ideas/schemes to find their niche players easier….ie. Indy’s need for fast LBs to sup their cover 2. While Indy may have gone a bit away from that style with Coker, it is still very much outside of your Def analysis. Now on Off, they are probably just starting to take your notes on the OL to heart after the SB loss.
Agree on Price
There are several DT/G types that I like a lot and Price is one of them. I just mentioned the ones that are often termed NTs, a couple of which I doubt will become prototypical. They’d IMO be better regarded as DT/G. I put Field into that category.
There’s lots more that could be said about both offense and defensive trends. Your point about the Colts IMO reflects the trend I see of coaches being able to adapt their schemes to the personnel available or that they garner to fit unique variations on the theme.
Thanks for the reaction!
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 5:21 AM MDT up reply actions
Not so bad Ivan...In fact Great!
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
I would rec it...
‘cause your analysis is good. But, IMO, you use IMO way too often. IMO. Three times in three sentences, at one point. This is a blog—we know it’s your opinion. So please kick that acronym.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
I tend to use IMO when I really mean...
“This is kinda what I think, but I reserve the right to change my minds.”
Somehow TIKWITBIRTRTCMM seems to long for an acrynym.
I cut down on IMO, if I can do it without withdrawal.
Thanks for the post, BTW.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 3:40 PM MDT reply actions
My fingers are tongue-tied
“This is kinda what I think, but I reserve the right to change my mind.”
Then “acronym”
Then “I’ll cut down…”
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Just a pet-peeve, that's all.
I think I even overuse it. It does get useful to preemptively diffuse internet flame wars though—i.e. if someone has beef with what you said the IMO reminds them they’re not forced to change theirs.
Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.
Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.
Drizz - good point
Occasionally, (seldom, if ever, on MHR; regularly on DP) posters give the impression that they understand perfectly the mind of God, much less the feeble mind of McX and the rest of us. They tend to ignite"internet flame wars" (good expression), and make good give and take discussion somewhat uncomfortable.
I think I tend to use IMO to “diffuse” (another good term) some of that.
Anyway, I did appreciate your comment and your other reactions.
by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 22, 2010 9:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Everyone that has been on here for any length of time knows that what we write is in our opinion, because we can't make decisions for the team.
But I do use IMO at least once to reaffirm that what I write doesn’t really mean it will happen that way. Great post ivan and thanks. Keep up the great work.
Ivan, I haven't had a chance to read this post until today.
Excellent, excellent post. Rec’d. I have filed it away for future reference.
I like the way you put the past 30 years into perspective. Football is a very dynamic sport that changes not only with new ideas from the coaching perspective but also with the personnel available on the field.
Thank you for your time and energy.
OL
2. Drafting OL early in this year’s draft, even OTs (maybe especially OTs), would not surprise me. Upgrading the OL is IMO crucial for the future. If by chance, Russell Okung, Bryan Bulaga or Anthony Davis fell to #11, I’d not be surprised if we bit. IMO they’re all better choices than Pouncey or Iupati at #11. Likewise, the day of OGs and OCs never being picked in the early rounds is over IMO.
There are indications that veteran OGs have increased their salary, which would mean the top ten logic that prevents them from being drafted higher no longer holds to the same degree. Centers have also increased in value as recent drafts have shown. My explanation for these developments is the ongoing arms race between the defense and offense and the recent trend towards pass rushing pressure up the middle. Centers need to handle humongous NTS now and still be both nimble and smart enough to recognize extremely complex pass rush strategies, besides the executing the intricate blocking schemes that teams also use.
My point is that OLs are being asked to do more and the physical and mental demands of the position are greater with these changes, They’ve also grown bigger as a consequence of defenses getter faster and sealing off the perimeter. Offenses need to run at the defense and size helps but nifty-ness is essential to fooling and sealing off defenders. And, as you say, much of the increase in size is for pass blocking rather than run blocking.
OTs are the best OLs in the draft, which is why I like the idea of taking one at #11 if necessary. Another subtlety that’s missed is that even the interior OLs have become essential pass blockers, and most of the OLs categorized as OGs and OCs are not proficient pass blockers.
no goats, no glory.

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