Injury Prone - Illusion?
by Alexander Wall on Mar 21, 2010 9:13 PM MDT
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This post started out as a response to Jeremy Bolander's article on the front page about Spencer Larsen starting at ILB and the topic of him being "injury prone". It then lead me to think of other players that have been written off as "injury prone" " or "injury risks" (a guy like Kyle Orton, or Correl Buckhalter for example). Those phrases get thrown around all the time, but is there any evidence to support it?
When you see a player who is unbelievably tough, always tries to play 100%, and has great conditioning work ethic... how do you call a player like that an "injury risk"?? Are you making predictions about his luck, his fate, future events? What is it, tell me please.
From the way I understand it, if a guy shows a ton of toughness and willingness to get his hands dirty (do you really want a timid guy on defense?? ask that first) and has great work ethic and commits himself so fully to conditioning, he is really no worse off than the next player. Are you saying has weak ligaments or brittle bones?? If so, show me something outside of his injuries that can attest to that. I mean, I'm not exactly licensed as a personal trainer, but in the Marines we learned that a good commitment to conditioning does nothing but strengthen your body.
Now before the discussion gets heated, I am in no way saying that once an injury happens, it isn't likely to occur in the same place again (which is highly common, especially in knee injuries with ligaments involved). Medical science shows that a broken bone actually heals STRONGER in that area and has a very, very slim chance of breaking again in the same place. If a person breaks the same bone, it is usually in a different location.
I'm keeping this post short because I want to know what everyone has to say about it. If you have experience as a personal trainer, physician, etc... please note in in your response. I'd like to get as much medical-minded input here as possible. However, everyone is free to give their two cents. If you have ever used the term "injury prone", or you believe that players can be "injury risks" please give us a little insight as to how you came to that conclusion - besides a list of injuries on a player (unless of course it is the same injury recurring).
From most of the injury footage I've seen and remember from watching in games (thank you multiple camera angles and instant replay) the majority of injuries happen from collision and freak-twisting of joints. At least the injuries that take people out of the game. Other than that it is pulled-muscles/cramps which is normally a conditioning issue or freak accident.
Those are just my two cents, now... Discuss. :D
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I agree with you
From what I can tell, injuries are relative and depend mostly on conditioning and luck. Some people can be more genetically susceptible to injury, but conditioning can improve this to even out the field. In my opinion, guys like Orton or Donovan McNabb are just unlucky.
However, I’d like to hear a doctor’s take on this (cough Bear cough Emmett cough). Is it possible for some guys to be more genetically “injury prone” than others??
Also, thanks for your time serving the country, Marine. :)
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
Yes. Where are you when we need you Doc? ^.^
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Mar 21, 2010 11:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Injury prone?
Yes, there are folks who have certain genetic predispositions for injury. However, not that may make it to the NFL. The two predominant issues are conditioning and proper musculo-skeletal balance.
Let’s talk Orton for a moment and then talk Larsen. McD make it clear that Orton is expected to improve his conditioning and balance this offseason – the fact that Orton didn’t get enough supervision on that in Chicago just reinforces the idea that Chi’s coaching staff may not be the best in the league at this time. Orton can get stronger and more balanced, no question.
But let’s take a look for a moment at this ‘predisposition’ to injury.
2005 – started 15 games. Games missed to injury – zero
Didn’t play in 2006 – no major problems with injuries in practice
Played 3 games in 2007, started all three, no major injuries
Played 15 games in 2008, started 15, one ankle injury. It kept him out of one game, but slowed him somewhat after that
Played 15 games in 2009, played with a broken forefinger on the throwing hand, missed no regular season games with that. Sprained the opposite ankle from 2008 in a strange situation when it was rolled on, missed parts of 2 games, played on it anyway.
This is NOT a description of an injury prone player. He’s missed 2 games over 3+ seasons due to injury. This is the NFL, and QBs have targets on their jerseys. Missing two games in 3 years isn’t that big a deal. This is the kind of thing that I mentioned earlier – people start throwing around statements without actually looking at the proof (or lack of it) and then it’s picked up and claimed as ‘fact’.
By the way, if you go back to his college years, he also played with ‘minor’ injuries. In fact, in his Tales article written in 2009, I noted that,
It was the 2003 Capital One Bowl that would leave an indelible impression on those who watched him. He suffered a dislocated thumb, a sprained toe and a cracked rib, but finished the game. His head coach, Joe Tiller, would later call it “one of the two truly courageous performances I’ve seen in all my years of coaching.” That kind of guts has shown up throughout his career at all levels.
As long as I’m quoting, I’ll get this over with. Some of the other quotes in the article were:
“He can really sling it,” (so much for the weak arm theory)
Said Northern Colorado coach Scott Downing, who was an assistant head coach on Joe Tiller’s staff at Purdue at the time, “He went in and just threw the ball over the place. Nothing could rattle him. He was big guy, a tough kid.” (That’s for the remarks that someone he ‘gets rattled’. No, he gets hurried when the line doesn’t play well, and there’s a difference. Who did Jim Caldwell blame this year’s Indy SB loss on? The O line. Every QB has trouble passing when wearing one or more LBs, and that includes HoF players like Manning)
Also on the ‘he gets rattled’ business:
Named 14th-best player in the nation (No. 2 in the Big Ten) by ESPN The Magazine … preseason third team All-American and No. 3-ranked quarterback in the nation by Phil Steele’s behind Matt Leinart (USC) and Jason White (Oklahoma) … ranked No. 4 by The Sporting News and Street & Smith’s … preseason Big Ten Offensive Player of the Year by Lindy’s and The Sporting News … named Most Fearless Quarterback in Big Ten by The Sporting News … tabbed Most Accurate Passer, Strongest Arm and Coolest in the Clutch in Big Ten by Lindy’s … selected Best Passing QB in Big Ten by Street & Smith’s.
“…pocket presence is above average. Has decent feet and will avoid the rush well from within the pocket.”
“Puts good zip on the deep out route, can drive the ball downfield in the vertical passing game, and can fit the ball into some tight spots in coverage. Shows excellent touch and accuracy when throwing vertically. Has impressive timing and knows how to lead his receivers in stride.”
If someone wants to try to ‘prove’ that he’s lost all of those abilities as an NFL QB, try telling that to the other guys in the locker room. They work hard at this time of year and could probably use the laugh.
Then you have Larsen. He had a few issues when playing all three areas – O, D, ST. One reason that folks don’t do that anymore is that YOU GET INJURED. In 2009, he did have a back injury that cost him part of one game, a hammie injury that cost one game, and that freak shoulder problem from a slip and fall.
12/31/09 – LB Spencer Larsen, who missed last week’s game with a hamstring injury, practiced in full Thursday. He will play this week if there is no setback.
12/30/09 – LB Spencer Larsen missed Sunday’s game with a hamstring injury, but returned to a limited practice on Wednesday. He should be able to play Sunday if he continues to improve.
12/16/09 – LB Spencer Larsen suffered a back injury on Sunday, but was back to full practice Wednesday and should play this week.
This is his college injury summary:
2005: Suffered anterior cruciate ligament damage in his right knee during spring drills and had surgery in March that forced him to sit out the Utah (9/02), Northern Arizona (9/10) and California games (10/01), while seeing minimal action vs. Purdue (9/17) and Southern California (10/08) clashes.
That’s all I could find. Again – this is not an injury prone player at this time. He was a gunner on ST last year – the most dangerous position in the game (hence the changes around it). I don’t see him as injury prone, but the more he plays on multiple teams, the more likely that it becomes that he’ll be injured.
It all starts with the lines
by Doc Bear on Mar 22, 2010 1:43 AM MDT up reply actions 7 recs
Nicely researched!
and rec’d. Amazed at all the trash that floats around about how Orton is injury prone. I don’t know if you ever saw the play where KO suffered a severe high ankle sprain in 2008 against the Lions. When I was watching the game/play, I couldn’t believe that he didn’t break his leg or ankle. After he was tackled short of a first down…flat on his back…with his feet sticking straight up, a 300 lb defensive tackle was blocked into him and landed right on top of his foot…his leg kind of acted as a brace, but his foot flexed so much, that I swear the front tip of his shoe was touching his shin. Orton was in shear agony for several minutes and then was carted off the field. It was such a freak play.
I saw it - Yeouch!
After listening to a lot of good interactions and theories on the Orton issue recently, my only concern was how much of it was based on just that – theories, colored by personal beliefs and, yes, prejudice. Orton is a very, very tough guy with no more injury history than anyone else who is constantly chased by large men who like to crush QBs. As far as the stuff about how he gets flustered and can’t play well, it’s ridiculous. The evidence to the contrary is there in substantial amounts.
It all starts with the lines
I don't think all ligaments are created equal.
A friend of mine, who is 33, has arthritis in various parts of his body, has an ankle that pops out whenever he runs, and has a shoulder that prevents him from working out at the gym. This history is not due to a history in sports, in fact, I think he lives a rather sedentary life.
I am a Portland Trailblazers fan and I have come to know Greg Oden and his injuries quite well. The guy can itch his sack, or merely show pictures of it on the internet, and pull a groin. He was born with a crutch in his hand.
Seriously, I think it is a combination of things, nature AND nurture. I definitely don’t think it is all one way and not another.
I like that take.
That’s primarily the opinion i’m coming from. It seems to be a combination of both, with an added amount of fortune/misfortune. I guess that’s what really inspired me to bring this topic to the surface. “Injury prone/risk” seems to be used a bit too flippantly in NFL (which I believe, due to it’s increased speed, physicality, and a mirriad of other random factors have a lot to do with NFL injuries). Cletes tend to catch at the worst moments (Hillis) and they also tend to slip right when you need them most. Then take into account all the pushing, pulling, and hitting going on out there and the chances of getting hurt pretty much even out to me. Sure some players have been less fortunate than others… but I think unless there is a recurring injury, or a guy just does not genetically have the makeup to push himself so hard and take all that pounding week to week, than injuries are fairly random events. Of course something always causes it, but how often can we pinpoint any specific cause. Just as you stated it’s usually a mixture of things, and that makes it kind of hard to look at a guys track record (injury-wise) and label him a “risk”.
I guess that i’m not saying so much that NOBODY is injury prone, or a risk; but just that the term gets used far to liberally these days.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Mar 21, 2010 11:25 PM MDT up reply actions
There is some degree of skill involved as well
In terms of getting to the ground the right way, not exposing yourself to big hits, etc. Also, certain players train better to avoid injury than others. Obviously I am no expert, and when it comes to these particular players I have no particular insight (and besides, I think Emmet covered that in his comment above). But I think like anything else in football, it’s some combination of luck, genetics, and learned ability/ work ethic.
One injury can lead to another, however
if the the original injury causes overcompensation in the body that doesn’t become unlearned once the original injury is healed. In other words, if I sprain my right knee, then for a period of time afterwards I will naturally favor that leg, and put more weight on my left leg. The problem is that these types of learned movement habits can become embedded even after the injury has fully healed. So, unless I put in the dedicated time to retrain my body to equally distribute my weight when I walk, I will naturally continue to favor the right leg until I unlearn that habit. This would, in a contact sport like football, make me much more prone to injuring either leg in the future since I am not optimally using my weight/ balance. Obviously, this is one of the major goals of injury rehab, to train the body into healthy post- injury habits, but it can be difficult and some vestiges of imbalance may be retained
Injury prone...
I’ve always noticed particular players just have a propensity for getting hit or falling in a way that produces injury. The best example I can think of is Boss Bailey? Good player, very athletic, skillful but just has a knack for getting himself hurt. Urlacher is another. These are good players that play all-out, and in doing so, increase their odds of getting hurt. Can’t explain it! I realize my POV is not evidence based, only observational using players to support my point.
"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM
Those are good points.
That gets on to the underlying preference of:
a) Do we want our guys to go out there, give 100%, and try their best to fill their assignment and make some plays?
or
b) Do we want our guys to take care of themselves, and not put their bodies to any severe risk?
Obviously the correct answer would be both. We want them to do everything they can, and not hurt themselves in the process. That is one of the main (if not most) important reasons for equipment and contact rules in the league. They try to do the best they can to minimize these things, but its impossible to do it completely and not take away from the game.
I look at it from this point of view: They’re getting played hundreds of thousands of dollars to put their bodies on the line; they know this. Also we have a depth chart for a reason. I’m also of the mindset that if you’ve truly been drafting and aquiring players successfully; than starting a guy like Larsen is not a risk; because you’ve got a guy of near-talent and quality behind him. Obviously we’re not quite there yet, but it seems like this is the direction we’re moving in. The salary cap restricts you from having a roster full of all-stars; but it doesn’t restrict you from putting together a complete and complimentary team.
That might help us answer the Jamie Dukes and Rod Woodson questions all the time (and just about everyone else on NFLN) “Why are you getting rid of all your playmakers??” Why? Well we’ll be better able to handle depth and injury issues in an increasingly competitive game. The guys are just getting faster and stronger.
That is one of the reasons I am totally on board with this whole “team-before-player” mentality. The all-star QB’s and WR are great, but what happens when they get hurt?
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Mar 21, 2010 11:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Playing within yourself
is another poorly understood cliche, but is applicable. Basically it means making sure you are prepared for the contact, and in a position to properly absorb it. That is why so many injuries come on breakdowns (think of a DE coming from the blind-side) or when players are attempting to extend the play.
If you are playing within yourself, you can take the hit and pop back up. A good example, go watch that Larsen special team hit again. As Larsen starts the hit he is gathered in, his arms and legs close together. The KC victim… err, player… sees the hit coming and prepares for it by hunkering down, pulling his legs together, and leaning away from the oncoming train. Larsen’s text-book tackle was good coaching, the KC player’s reaction was a combination of good coaching and a good sense of self-preservation (not a joke — some of being prepared for a hit is simply instinct).
I know this was in response to my post and the comments following
but I thought I would be clear that I don’t like to assign “injury prone” as a label. I hope it was clear in my post that I was just putting the idea out there for consideration, not labelling him. For Larsen’s previous injury concern, I’m sure it was a case that he was recovering from an injury and needed to be checked out medically to be sure he was good draft stock. For all of his additional injuries, well, they are so disparate, it is hard to generalize and try to draw one thread from all of them.
I think all of the reasons you list above in the poll could be very logical reasons for someone to draw an “injury prone” label. Some of them can even be blamed on the player, such as one who doesn’t take the little things like hydration seriously. I know that when I was training all the time, stretching was a huge part of my routine, but many people I worked with basically used it as time to just sort of loll around. Stretching out should be done properly and be serious business, as important as the muscle breakdowns. I think a LOT of players in the league are less serious than they need to be in that area.
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formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 21, 2010 11:37 PM MDT reply actions
I thought of that after I posted this:
That you might think I was referring specifically to your post, but it was more too the overall responses to your post; as well as regarding other players on our team, and really, in the NFL in general about risk and injury.
I definitely agree with everything you’ve said here, and of course that was a very good article. I just wanted to add some insight and felt as though it needed its own platform for discussion – rather than dragging out your comment section which (although part of the topic) would have just detracted from the other points in your article.
Thank you for commenting though and allowing me some explanation on it. :D
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Mar 21, 2010 11:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Very good post, AW
You have made a very good point that after a statement is uttered and repeated it is accepted as gospel. In my humble opinion, anyone who is on the field on O, D and ST will increase his chance for injury. Missing a game and having a freak fall injury do not make him injury-prone.
When I saw the player roll up on Kyle’s leg from behind, I thought he was out for the season… one tough dude!
Thanks for a thought-provoking post, AW! Rec’d.
"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character." -- Albert Einstein
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