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Analyzing Nose Tackles


Perusing the list of offerings from this past week, I particularly liked the article Trends that Ivan put together, and I want to compliment him on that great effort. It was a very nice job of organizing a lot of disparate information in a way that brought out and clarified many of the concepts that were within its scope. As good articles tend to do, I found that I did have a couple of questions and thoughts from it. I thought they would fit best in an article rather than a comment - I try not to write a 'War and Peace' comment more than once a month...;-). After the response to the historical retrospective on choosing a quarterback, it brought me to the understanding that it will take a little time to cover the issues that have to be considered when choosing a nose tackle for a 3-4 defense. Much of this originally came up in regard to T. Cody, but this is equally important regardless of which NT you decide to draft for your team.

Star-divide

The nose tackle position is, as Ivan pointed out, both the key to an effective 3-4 defense and is also going to be an increasingly important position in the NFL due to the issue of scarcity. It was only a little over a decade ago that there were no more than three teams that ran the 30 front. At this time, about half of the NFL teams run a version or hybrid of it at least some of the time. While it isn't always easy to find good 3-4 DEs (consider the incredible overpayment for Tyson Jackson in the 2008 draft because there were so few), finding a nose tackle is one of the first and most difficult keys to the process of changing from a 40 to a 30 front look. However - much as people seem convinced that the issue at NT is finding a player with the size to play the position, that's not always the case. The first thing a team has to do is to decide what kind of 3-4 defense they will play. Once that is achieved, you can move on to the job of choosing the exact player who will give you the best chance of winning with a fair degree of confidence. From Ivan's Trends:

Cody is the kind of player that will move up the board.  First of all, he’s really the only NT in this draft with the prototypical size (not many Ted Washington’s around). Teams who are moving to 3-4 will seriously consider him even counting the risk.

You know, I frequently hear this idea of a 'prototypical size' as it relates to the nose tackle, but the fact is that this continues to confuse me. The theory seems to be that there is only one kind of 'real' NT, hence the 'prototypical' term. In actual application, looking around the NFL, that's not the case at all. The issue has to do more with the specific type of 3-4 that a team is running than it does with matching some theoretical ideal or prototype. As we can see from glancing around the league at different teams and their approaches to the scheme, there are many ways to create a 30 front defense. Since the Broncos are essentially starting very much from scratch, they have the perfect opportunity in a fairly deep draft to consider their own preferred approach to this system and to put that preference into play. After all - this year is unusually good for the nose tackle position, both in the number of players available who could potentially play there, and in the breadth of the body types that might fit the bill. To understand each of these concepts, it's best to start with the beginning - by understanding the modern 3-4 defense. Happily, the reference work there has already been written right here on MHR.


The Three Primary 3-4 Approaches

If you aren't already familiar with it, it's time for you to get acquainted with Steve 'Hoosierteacher's article, The Modern 3-4 Defense. Here are some prototype examples, using his information. Essentially, while there are three main options when running the 3-4, but there are as many subcategories of each as there are defensive coordinators who run them. Because of this, NTs can range from about 300 lb to 360+, and can be used in single gap or two gap formations. Here are some examples.

The New England version of the 3-4 uses a 325 lb player (Wilfork) in a 2 gap formation. This is about an average weight for NTs around the league, so I suppose that you could call that 'typical' rather than 'prototypical', (by which I assume that people mean 'optimal'). This version, as NE runs it, is the classic Fairbanks-Bullough (more commonly called the Bullough these days) version of the 3-4. As NE's success with this system demonstrates, you really don't need the kind of 340 or 350 lb player that so many fans associate with the 3-4. It's just one possible approach.

On the far other end of the spectrum is the Phillips 3-4, which was developed by Bum Phillips and is still used by several teams, including Dallas (where his son, Wade Phillips, is still the current coach). Jay Ratcliff, Dallas' NT is quite light, about 303 lb, and his backup, Junior Saivii, is 313-316, depending on who you ask and where he ate last. The Phillips variation generally (but not always) uses a single gap formation for the NT and emphasizes using a penetrating approach to both pass and run, attempting to get into the backfield and blow up each play. Interestingly, Mike Nolan tried to run that kind of system in San Francisco, despite the less than favorable outcome. His approach switched from one approach to another, 30 front to 40 front, much like a defensive version of the amoeba offense, but he didn't have the players who would fit and maximize the effectiveness of that design. In designing any defense, the scheme has to be carried out by players who are themselves suitable to the approach. The Broncos found that out first hand, during the revolving door period of the mid 2000's.

To see how easily such an approach can be varied, consider the Chargers situation in 2009. San Diego used to use a variation on the Phillips that employed a two gap approach with Jamal Williams at NT. That worked well, too, but when Williams went down to injury, they moved to a rotation of three players, Ogemdi Nwagbuo, Ian Scott and Travis Johnson, none of whom are more than 310 lb. They have now changed the depth chart to add Vaughn Martin as the 3rd string NT, moving Johnson back to DE, but they are usually using a single-gap approach. Martin is currently down from 360 to 320 lb - despite being an unusually athletic big man, he was a bit sloppy fat and couldn't penetrate well enough to fit the defense. He's in better football shape now and they hope that he'll take over more and more of the NT duties over the next two years. He came come down from Canada, where he played in the CFL. Even though he's surprisingly light on his feet, the current belief is that he'll play NT at about 315-320. That's close to being about standard these days.

There are players like Ngata from Baltimore who run the two gap 3-4 defense and are around 335 lb. That's fine too; it's one of the many options for the position. However - there is a common belief that this is somehow the 'real' kind of NT. More accurately, the 'real' NT is one who gets tthe job done and done well within the scheme that the team prefers to use. The really isn't a single size that is somehow 'better'. Denver looks to be interested in an attacking, aggresive two gap approach, and their drafting should tend to reflect that.

The third main category of the 3-4 is the zone blitz 3-4, perfected by Dick LeBeau of Pittsburgh (although he developed much of it when he was with Cincinnati). Pitt currently uses the 320 lb Casey Hampton as the NT, and he may use a single gap or a two gap approach, depending on the rest of the play, down and distance. That's increasingly common - as mentioned above, it's much like the defensive version of the 'amoeba' and moves from single to two gap approaches at need. They may rush or drop any of the players near the line in to coverage. As you probably know, this can be run from either the 4-3 or 3-4 fronts. Some teams, like Arizona, will use an under or over shift to further complicate things for the offense.

Mike Shanahan may be creating his own version of the 3-4 in Washington, or so the rumor goes. If so, it will be the biggest 3-4 line I've ever heard of. He's got Haynesworth at 350, (at least, we think that he does, although last I heard Haynesworth was AWOL). Haynesworth has been very clear that he doesn't like the idea of playing nose tackle, claiming that NTs are 'stumpier' than him. Shanny also brought in Maake Kemoeatu at 345 to play NT and Anthony Montgomery at 330. It sounds more like a 4-3 to me, but it's being planned as a 3-4. We'll see - that's a very large group of men, regardless of how they distribute them.

Buffalo has stated that they will go to the 3-4 in 2010, but haven't mentioned which version. As noted, Arizona is also playing a hybrid that movers from 3-4 to 4-3 and Darnell Dockett only runs 285, with while Bryan Robinson is about 305. Cleveland uses Shaun Rodgers as the NT for it's version of the 3-4, and he's back up in the 340 range. Miami is going to the 3-4 now, but they have a 355 lb. DE in Paul Soliai and a 310 NT in Jason Ferguson (with Tony McDaniel also listed as a DT despite being only 305 lb) The possibilities are endless and they depend on both what players you can obtain and what your precise theories of defense are. There really is no single approach - each works as well as the players who execute it.

So, while the list goes on for a while,  hopefully the point is clear - any of the 3-4 formations can use a smaller, lighter 3-4 NT and go with a single gap, penetrating approach or a larger player with a two gap approach, as well as playing any number of variations on both approaches. This is why I say that Cody is not prototypical as an NT - his size (with a playing weight of under 335 being sought by many teams) is one option, but since he lacks lateral quickness and has struggled with run/pass recognition, his ability to play the two gap may turn out to be somewhat limited. His situation reminds me in some ways of the discussions around Ron Brace (6'3, 330 lb 2nd round pick in 2008), currently of NE. Brace played in the shadow of BJ Raji, but many scouts felt that Brace was a better player, technically. Raji often got by on size and power, which is fine in college, but doesn't work as well in the NFL. Brace will probably have a while to develop behind Wilfork, which is about the best thing that could happen to him.

The 2010 'Big Three' Candidates


Dan Williams vs. Terrence Cody


When we look at the NT options this year, Dan Williams is unanimously listed above Cody. Regardless of your personal preference between the two players, there are several good reasons why. Despite Cody's impressive size, his conditioning, dedication, quickness and ability to move laterally are all in question. This isn't an attempt to change your (or anyone's) mind; it is just to point out why Williams is   more highly rated. Size is only a single issue for the NT. Quickness is one of the things that made Jamal Williams so good - if he was just that big without the agility, he wouldn't have been half the player that he is. Dan Williams is both quick and agile. He also anchors well, as does Cody (and Cal Thomas, who we'll talk about in a minute). Williams has far less trouble with playing too high - Cody does so frequently. While it's good that Cody has dropped weight since the end of the season, I'm just as concerned with what did (and didn't) happen for the 3-4 years prior to that. With 1st or second round money in his pocket and a few months mostly off, what will happen to his weight then? Many agents, coaches and GMs have confided that this is the time that scares them the most with their younger players. It's often when big men get a whole lot bigger, and their first training camp can easily become a parade of injuries from carrying too much weight for their frame.

Explosion:  Probably the single most important skill for an NT is explosion off the line, and that's where Cody really struggles. Big and strong are certainly his best points - explosive is not, nor is he agile or quick. Williams wasn't that much better until his time under Monte Kiffen in 2009 - he had been listed as a probably third rounder as late as August of 2009. Regardless of some of the things that are being said about the Tampa 2 defense instituted at Tennessee, the reality is that Williams simply blossomed under good coaching - period. He had trouble with explosion in his first couple of years, but it was more of a technical issue than a lack of skill, and Monte Kiffen worked it out with him. He's much faster than Cody laterally, which means that he is going to be able to get back into position on runs that Cody will whiff on.  The intelligence factor has to come in here as well - Williams has a better football IQ and can catch misdirection more quickly and react to it much faster. Many scouts and scouting sites, including Scott Wright's Draft Countdown have questioned Cody's cognitive abilities. In the defense that Denver wants to run, that might be one of the deciding issues.

Cody has the following weaknesses - I'm taking them from Scott Wright' Draft Countdown because he's got them nicely listed, but you can find them on almost any site:

Major conditioning and stamina issues --- Provides little or nothing as a pass rusher --- Range is extremely limited --- Isn't explosive and lacks a burst --- Is not very quick or agile --- Can use his hands better --- Plays too high at times --- Limited  schematically --- Is intelligence a concern?

The issue of questions on Cody's intelligence has been a major red flag for a while now. Despite the common viewpoint of many fans, the job of a NT is much more than just taking up space, Since he has little pass rushing skill, quickness or agility, I worry about him for the Broncos schematically, and moreso if here are issues with intellect (I have yet to see anyone deal with this directly, and right now, it's an open question). He's also downright slow, and the NFL is a very fast game. That does matter, even for a NT. He's going to wash out of plays due to that slow footspeed. Lots of great college players have difficulty making the leap to the NFL. The two reason most commonly given are the much faster speed of the NFL game and it's substantially greater complexity and intellectual requirements. These are concerns with Cody that I have yet to see dealt with directly. That bothers me.

Williams has not had that flag raised. He is substantially quicker and more agile. He also has very good pass/run recognition skills, something that I rarely (if ever) have heard about Cody and he can make adjustments that Cody just won't be fast enough to manage. This is not to say that Cody cannot be a good NFL player - he might well become one. But it's important to recognize that he has certain factors going against him, and those aren't gong to disappear because he is a very heavy man who played well in college. Both are true, but the questions are around the chances that he has at the next level, rather than the one he's just leaving. Both players anchor well. Both can stop the run. Williams has quite a bit more skill in rushing the passer.

Cam Thomas, North Carolina State

Cam Thomas, on the other hand, is a very reasonable choice if neither Williams nor Cody is chosen. He is much faster than Cody, although not as quick as Williams. His bull rush may be the best of the three, but he's going to need to develop more from a technical viewpoint - too many college players come out depending on a single move, and the players that they will be going up against have seen it all before. Any NT has to develop a series of technical moves that will let them defeat both single players and double teams. Thomas is not as good as Williams from the viewpoint of intelligence or agility, but he's a very powerful man. I have long felt that only being able to eat space and take on double teams is a lousy description of the NT position, but as far as that description goes, Thomas is very good. He's a third option, and with over 13 of the NFL teams running the 3-4 part or full time, he's probably going to go by the end of the second round. He anchors very well, is extremely powerful, enjoys fighting double teams and was trained by Tar Heels coaches Butch Davis and defensive line coach John Blake, who have extensive NFL-type coaching backgrounds.

"Our defense is pro style, we're attacking, we're gap-scheming and stuff like that," Thomas said. "Most of the stuff I'm already used to right now."

He's right, and that's certainly in his favor when teams look at him in the draft. Thomas doesn't have the explosion of Williams, but his is better than Cody's. Thomas is also known for his positive, upbeat style and booming laughter. He's probably not on quite the same level as Williams or Cody at this point in his career, but there's no question that he's more agile than Cody, even though he hasn't been properly taught to use that skill yet. Given time (and a coach like Wayne Nunnely), I think that he can get there.

So, that's about it. You can prefer one style of player over another. You can see more options with the Phillips, love the deviousness of the zone blitz or exult about the power of the Bullough. But when you talk about the NT who is going to play in your scheme, you have to look at a lot more than how big the player is.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 73 comments  |  37 recs  | 

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Doc you rock

This is all the substantiation that would’ve made my opinion on Cody in “Trends” much less easy to refute. And all of what those Cody apologists were ignoring. Just ‘cause someone shows up to the Senior Bowl at 378 doesn’t mean they’ll make a good NT.

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Mar 23, 2010 1:43 PM MDT reply actions  

So.....

Basically Williams in the 1st or Thomas in the 2nd if we want a top notch guy to groom at NT? Works for me. You changed my view on Cody. Rec’d of course.

by PigskinProphet on Mar 23, 2010 1:45 PM MDT reply actions  

Great post Doc and rec'd!

I listened to McDaniels’ 60 minute interview this morning and am surprise we have had anyone talk about it or discuss it. When asked if the players he was going after were older veterans, his quick reply was, it’s a ‘blend’ of 30 somethings and young guys to learn from. This is a great way to approach player development and add depth at the same time.

He also mentioned Jarvis Green as playing on the right side of the nose and talked about Fields, Thomas and McBean without mentioning Baker. That to me is interesting and may speak of his slow development on the line. The DLine was a main concern for the coach often mentioning that players got wore down as the season dragged on and the reason for adding the depth of J Williams, J Bannan and J Green. He also said that there was a lot of defensive prospects in this draft and may add from there as well since the secondary was addressed in last years draft. I believe McD/X will try and get a player like Cam Thomas. I have a hard time thinking they will go after Dan Williams with the first pick even though he may be a little better C Thomas or Cody. Of the three mentioned I think Thomas will be the one in the late 2nd.

I do hope someone does do an analysis of the interview though.

by bfree2bronc on Mar 23, 2010 1:47 PM MDT reply actions  

Link please?

"The night is darkest just before the dawn."- Harvey Dent

by broncofan91 on Mar 24, 2010 12:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

See my comment below Pablo

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Mar 24, 2010 7:48 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ah, found it.

Not sure how I missed it last night. Thanks Kirk!

"The night is darkest just before the dawn."- Harvey Dent

by broncofan91 on Mar 24, 2010 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks Doc

Lots of food for thought here. The thought of Thomas later makes a lot of sense. Doing this would enable a trade down scenario to stockpile a few more picks…

by DCJ on Mar 23, 2010 1:51 PM MDT reply actions  

Fantastic read Doc

Rec’d

"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV

by sadaraine on Mar 23, 2010 2:00 PM MDT reply actions  

HaHa!

This is what I got ot proofread. Good work again, Doc. Always very informative. Don’t tell S.D. I’m pretty sure they will take Cody at #28 or #40. From what it sounds like at the meetings, they are very pissed we stole JWilliams from them.

by Digger24 on Mar 23, 2010 2:03 PM MDT reply actions  

WOW!

Great post, that clears up alot for me. Thanks for taking the time to post that Doc. I have a question (or 2) for you: Do you feel we should take Williams at #11 or is it a better value to take Cam Thomas with #45 and take another position at #11 say Bulaga or McClain? Is it that big of a drop off in your opinion form Williams to Thomas?

2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!

THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!

by The 3 Amigos on Mar 23, 2010 2:03 PM MDT reply actions  

Good question, T3A

This one is going to keep a few GMs up at night, especially with the scarcity issue on NTs. Regardless of height and weight, they have o have a skillset that few players can really boast.

My own feeling is that Williams is sufficiently appropriate for our scheme that I’d probably go with him in the first. The increase in his abilities over the past year can be seen by those who don’t like him as a ‘One year wonder’ or by those who do like him as a normal progression of a player on the DL, many of whom bloom later. I’m in the second group, and that colors my thinking on this. The improvement of his coaching played a substantial role as well. The thing that sells me the most is the combination of his greatly increased agility this past season and his run/pass recognition. The one thing that I disliked about Fields was that if he hose the wrong gap, he wasn’t quick enough to get back. His first step was fast and explosive, but his ability to reverse course if needed on the second step wasn’t good.

However – let me be clear. All three can be good. Cam has the advantage of the pro-style defense and great coaching. He loves to fight double teams and he’s a locker room pleasure to be around. Williams has perhaps the best combination,while Cody may be the strongest but also the slowest. You can work out good scenarios for all three players. For Denver, I’d go with Williams, but I’m as concerned was anyone with the OL. However – if you pass on Williams, and Cody and Thomas go before we pick in the second, there’s not that much left that.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 23, 2010 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks Doc

I agree that we need to take and I think we will take Williams at 11, because there is no guarentee Thomas or cody wil be there in the second, especially after SD moved ahead of us in the second and Miami (also picks before us in the second) have NT needs.

2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!

THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!

by The 3 Amigos on Mar 23, 2010 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

OK I'm game. I'd be happy with D Williams at #11, but,

who would we cut off the existing roster since we have 9 already? Can baker go back to the PS? Say we carry 10 DT/DEs, 7 LBs and 8 DBs, would that work?

by bfree2bronc on Mar 23, 2010 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I guess in the imaginary mind of Goliath's Nose Tackles must be 345-350 to be suitable to take on 2 blockers.
I frequently hear this idea of a ‘prototypical size’ as it relates to the nose tackle, but the fact is that this continues to confuse me.

I don’t believe weight is as a concerning factor of being a true NT than being very strong and athletic. This guy HAS to hold the front line and stop the run up the middle. He has to collapse the line in on passing downs. As long he can do this and more then he can do the job no matter if he weighs 290 or 345. Wild notions of only heavy weight guys filling the spot is not true, but it does help to have the weight to push around.

Like you said Doc this is a misconception of a teams overall need and scheme. Justin Bannan was advertised as one of our NTs upon signing and in a way this is correct because he does play in the NT position on occasion. IMO his primary role will be DE/DG but will fill in as NT along with Fields and Williams. McD also said that the DLine will hold 6 or 7 players on the roster and has me thinking that if he does in fact draft a DT/DE then one or 2 of the existing players will have to go. What we have now are; At NT- J Williams, R Fields, Justin Bannan and Chris Baker. At DE we have Marcus Thomas, Ryan McBean, Le Kevin Smith, Vonnie Holliday and Jarvis Green. If we draft a DT/DE then 2 or 3 of these guys will be gone unless a couple can go on the PS.

by bfree2bronc on Mar 23, 2010 2:07 PM MDT reply actions  

Baltimore is a great example of size being only part of the picture

As Kelly Gregg actually often mans the Nose on rushing downs, pushing ngata out to DE/DG… and Bannan rotated in at both DE and NT. Ngata moves inside on passing downs (he’s a much more explsove passrusher), but in the run situations, the “small” guy often manned the NT spot!

I think there are defniteily players on the bubble, whether we draft a new DT or not. Baker, PDX, Thomas, and Smith are likely fighting for 2, at most 3 spots on the active roster. I’d be stunned if we kept more than 8, especially since you have guys like Reid and Ayers that can move inside from OLB on 3rd and long. PS is a possibility again for Baker/PDX.

by cjfarls on Mar 24, 2010 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good points, cj

Since Baker was protected by making the 53 man roster, do you see that happening again this year, or would you feel that after a year, he can go on the PS with PDX? I agree with you – whether Denver drafts another big man or not, the competition will be fierce this TC

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 24, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

Hmm.

I hope that the competition is between higher caliber guys this year than last. Fierce is one thing, but fierce competition where you hate to cut the loser is awesome.

Personally, I don’t think Chris Baker can be stashed on the PS. Someone in need of size inside will sign him. Especially since he’s proven he can work well with the coaching staff and has kept his nose clean for over a year as an NFL player. Those were the reasons he went undrafted, eh?

by BroncosBassist on Mar 24, 2010 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good point on Baker and PS...

So yeah, I agree he’s unlikely to be a PS player… so one more person fighting for a spot vs. waivers.

I think I can guaruntee the “fierce” competition between this and last year is better. I (and likely any/every team in the NFL) would take Bannan or Green in a heartbeat over Peterson, and he was one of our starters last year.

by cjfarls on Mar 25, 2010 8:12 AM MDT up reply actions  

Both Bannan and Green are better players, no doubt

The competition will be greatly increased over last season just by the nature of the team’s growth this offseason. McBean has another year under his belt, Fields will have to prove that he’s a better choice than someone else, M. Thomas is intriguing as a DE ( I always saw him there, and was disappointed that he was tried at NT), and if Denver does draft a young DL player, NT or otherwise, the competition will be that much greater. Baker is a very big question mark, and we’ll get to see where, and if, he fits. A year under Nunnely can’t have hurt his chances.PDX i still an unknown, and his injury at the end of the season is part of a pattern that may cost him He’s spent too much time injured – one of the players for whom the ‘injury prone’ label has been too accurate

I have to also wonder how the LB competition will increase. They brought back Barrett, who can take the nickle LB reps from Woodyard if WW doesn’t step up; but WW has another year’s experience to bring to that fight, I like Haggan as ILB (always have, and was somewhat surprised that he was placed at OLB), Ayers will have to step up to earn those starter minutes, etc, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised by an OLB in the draft, either, and although I’d be a little surprised by an ILB, anything is possible.

I think that what I’m most pleased with is that the coming competition at every level of the defense is much greater than last season. Our newest DB, Nate Jones, has played the #2 corner, nickel corner and even safety – that kind of versatility is a hallmark of the direction that Denver is going in. He’ll push everyone else. Smith has a chance to show that his drafting wasn’t a mistake (we’ll see) and even the former PS CB, Tony Carter, will get to show whether his good reps were a fluke or not. There’s going to be a fight for every position on the field this TC – I like seeing that. Complacency is dead, for this team. That revs my engine, and I’m excited about the direction that I see things moving.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 25, 2010 10:31 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I'm super happy to see the defense at TC

To me, the talent level at all positions is good, and we are really at a point where we can take BPA for defense and add to the competition without trying to fill a starting position. Yes, there’s room for upgrade at most spots, but none of them are tremendously weak links (on paper, at least). I wouldn’t be surprised by an ILB, OLB, NT, or DE in the first three rounds, and would welcome any of the above. An extra infusion of youth in the secondary would be welcome too.

The OL is a mess, but other than that, I think the offense looks to be in the same boat. I’m stoked for the draft, TC, and preseason already!

by BroncosBassist on Mar 25, 2010 11:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

Slightly disagree with the Cardinals analysis

Dockett definately plays the NT on passing downs, but Phoneix has been trying to get more of a two gap player in Gabe Watson and Alan Branch playing NT on a lot of the running downs. I think they like to rotate Robinson in with Watson and are looking to go to a more traditional 2 gap with some off gap work system that is similar to the Steelers scheme.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman

by Broncoman on Mar 23, 2010 2:17 PM MDT reply actions  

No disagreement - just a more brief description on my side

Sure, Watson is used on many running downs. The Cardinals hybrid uses a wide variety of looks and I didn’t bother to go through all of them. Watson is heavier, the other two are lighter, and again – it’s all about what approach fits your defensive scheme. Good comment!

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 23, 2010 2:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great work as always

I just had been paying attention to Watson since I had thought we should of looked at trading for him last year, But the Cards obviously like his bulk and potential, and I am sure it would of cost us a pretty penny. Since NT are hard to find.

I would tend to go for Thomas in the 2nd round, although I could see him moving up on some draft boards. I tend to agree also that Williams may be rated better as a NT or prospect, but I think Williams may be more scheme dependent than Cody, I really see him being a better fit as a one gap DT or NT, depending on your view. Cody is just hard not to like for one thing, and that is you can’t coach size. And he actually is rather nimble on his feet for his size, but I agree there are a huge amount of risk factors that are going to drop him and could lead to an early NFL exit.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman

by Broncoman on Mar 23, 2010 4:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great write up

I love signing off and leaving a smarter Broncos fan. Thank you. I’d still rather go OL first, trade Marshall for more picks and grab Cam and some decent LB prospects. Middle of the road defense works just fine but we really need to get the offense rolling. Scoring points in the end is what mostly wins you games. I’m tired of the sputtering offense, despite other’s oppinions I don’t really agree with finding good enough OL in later rounds. Sounds like understimating the importance of good, solid OL play.

by bronco112 on Mar 23, 2010 2:48 PM MDT reply actions  

Wikipedia where ivan pulled his analysis of the prototypical NT
The 3-4 nose tackle is considered the most physically demanding position in football.7 His primary responsibility is to control the "A" gaps, the two openings between the center and guards, and not get pushed back into his linebackers. If a running play comes through one of those gaps, he must make the tackle or control what is called the "jump-through"—the guard or center who is trying to get out to the linebackers. The ideal nose tackle has to be much bigger than 4-3 DTs, weighing around 330 pounds or more. Ted Washington is considered the prototypical nose tackle of this era. "In his prime, Ted Washington was the ideal guy," says an AFC pro personnel director. "He was huge, had long arms, and you couldn’t budge him.

And this is where physicality comes in, he must not get pushed back by the center by all means and if he can’t handle that, then the defense will be in for a long day.

by bfree2bronc on Mar 23, 2010 2:59 PM MDT reply actions  

Actually didn't read Wikipedia

Don’t know much about Wikipedia. Not too good on the Internet if the truth be told.
Remember Washington from his Bronco days (I’m that old). Liked him then and thought he was misused.
But this is a pretty good description of how I view “prototypical” NTs.

by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 23, 2010 10:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

Very very solid post

The Chargers could very well have their starting and backup NT on the roster now. V. Martin fresh from playing in the Canadian college football, and off a failed experiment playing DE at a lower weight. And Ogemdi Nwagbuo who was working at the SD airport renting cars when the Chargers signed him.
Needless to say it should be interesting, about the only upside we know of is they’re young.

by Foilhat on Mar 23, 2010 3:35 PM MDT reply actions  

By the way, if they want that RB, there's this phone kiosk in Aurora Mall

They’ve got a guy working there who would be glad to put on pads and run the rock for SD….jk. Mostly.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 25, 2010 11:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

So much for Wiki ;-)

Washington was a great player, but the game has evolved quite a bit since this was updated. One of the better questions is ’What will the next change be?"

Foilhat has a good point on SD. They have Martin, who is very raw but extremely athletic, Nwagbuo who did well as the season went on and they’ve kept both Ian Scott and Travis Johnson, last I heard. Johnson is backing up Castillo, but Nwagbuo is still 1st string at NT – until OTAs or TC, at any rate.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 23, 2010 3:40 PM MDT reply actions  

To say its a giant scrub fest would be an understatement.

by Foilhat on Mar 23, 2010 3:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Baker?

Great work Doc!

Here’s a question – knowing how highly rated Baker is how does he fit into the equation?
A year under nunnely’s teaching and now with jwal showing the way – that’s some way to learn your craft!

I cant see us going for either cody or williams and can only see Cam Thomas at a stretch. What say you that the Broncos have their NT of the future in Baker?

by vanbrugh on Mar 23, 2010 4:00 PM MDT reply actions  

Baker is a great (or lousy) secret ;-)

I doubt that they’d be holding on to him if they didn’t see something that they liked, but how far he’s gotten, no one outside of Dove Valley seems to have a clue yet (I’m on on the list of those without one). I wish that I knew….

There are things to be said for each of the three above, and Baker may, for all we know, be ready to compete for a slot this summer. I think that the DL competition is going to be one of the highlights of training camp.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 23, 2010 4:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great read Doc, very informative

I think over the past couple weeks, I’m finally starting to get a good idea of how I would like to see this draft shake out.

As it relates to this article, I would like to see the Broncos forego Williams and Cody to draft Cam Thomas. If you’re correct about him going in the late 2nd, then we’ll either need to move up in the third or back in the 2nd. If Coach McDaniels sees it the same, I doubt it would be problematic, as he’s already shown a general willingness to move draft picks like chess pieces.

I’m at least somewhat against drafting Dan Williams, but it has nothing to do with skills. It’s more about draft position and resources to me. I simply don’t like the idea of drafting him at #11, because I consider it a reach. More importantly, though, I’m very much against using a first-round draft pick on a position where we’re not in need of a starter. I believe we’ve discussed this before, but to put it bluntly, I throw the idea of grooming rookies under optimum circumstances (like grooming Dan Williams behind Jamal Williams) out the window when we have pressing needs and immediate starting roles that we hope to fill (interior offensive line).

Mount Cody is another story. His massibe build and the fact that there are enough desperate 3-4 teams, like San Diego perhaps, that he will likely be taken early. The Broncos are no longer desperate enough to take that risk, IMO. I’m not totally against taking Cody, but I am against taking him as early as he’s likely to go.

Your thoughts here helped validate my own, when you said the following:

Lots of great college players have difficulty making the leap to the NFL. The two reason most commonly given are the much faster speed of the NFL game and it’s substantially greater complexity and intellectual requirements. These are concerns with Cody that I have yet to see dealt with directly. That bothers me.

That bothers me, too.

Cam Thomas seems a bit raw, but he’s tough, smart, and versatile. Check, check, check. And spending a 2nd/3rd round draft pick on a player to groom behind current starter(s) seems more prudent than spending an early first- or second-rounder on a purely rotational player.

As an aside, I think I’ve decided that my best case first-round would be to draft both Rolando McClain and Maurkice Pouncey. Two elite players at positions in which we’ve given up our starters and not replaced them. Two players projected to immediately start. This would only be possible if we trade Brandon Marshall of course.

Again, great information. I learned a lot on the differing versions of NT’s and schemes using.

Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!

by Alex on Mar 23, 2010 4:12 PM MDT reply actions  

Interesting post, Emmett

Good summary of 3-4 schemes around the League. Although, I cannot drink the kool-aid and must still respectfully disagree with you on a few points:
- I’m not nearly as concerned about explosion off the ball for a NT in a two-gap scheme – instead I’ll take a strong, space-eater in the middle every time. I’d like to see the Broncos never get torched for over 250 yds rushing in a game again. See film on Vince Wilfork – not a very ‘explosive’ first step off the ball, but a huge asset in the middle.
- Also, I can’t really be concerned by the explosion or athleticism of a NT who blocks FGs (plural).
- If it’s more credible because we quote scouts, NFLDraftScout said this about Cody:

03/12/10 – TOP RATED NFL DRAFT SCOUT DEFENSIVE TACKLES: Terrence Cody: Alabama, 6-4, 354, 2: Many scouts believe Cody is literally the single biggest reason that Alabama had the best defense in the country last season. He trimmed down to 354 pounds for the combine but remains a mountain of a man who is almost impossible to move, even when he is double-teamed. With Cody at nose tackle, no running back rushed for 100 yards against the Crimson Tide. His two-year statistics are decent, with 52 total tackles, including 10½ for a loss, two blocked kicks and a sack. But he took on at least two blockers on virtually every play, freeing up teammates to clean up.

- For the purpose of full disclosure, I’m not a Tide fan or particularly in love with Cody as a player/person, but I just think a lot of people on MHR complain about spouting/regurgitating general MSM hype and it seems to me that most criticisms about him have came from the MSM hype machine after he showed up overweight at the Senior Bowl. At the end of the day, the guy was the centerpiece of the best defense in college football and shut down some of the best offenses in college football.
DON’T BELIEVE THE HYPE.

"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty

by SteveAssassin on Mar 23, 2010 4:26 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

sorry,

that second box in blue is mine. Clearly I need a class on how to use quote boxes.

"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty

by SteveAssassin on Mar 23, 2010 4:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

The qotes boxes have a mind of their own - we've all been through it

I don’t believe the hype for, or against Cody. I respect what he’s done, and I can see some uncomfortable holes in his play. By the way, Steve Nichols, who is on staff here, is a former HS defensive coordinator who stated that the explosion of the first step is probably the most important trait in a DL, especially a NT. Wilfork, by the way, as an extremely fast first step – I don’t know where the suggestion that he doesn’t comes from, but I did months of watching NE film for the Divining Josh McDaniels series last year, and after watching that much of it, I can stay that he was very explosive in 2008. So is Jamal Williams. It’s under-rated by fans, but it’s a key to the game. The problem that I see with Cody is that his explosion and ability at lateral correction are both lacking. That will get him through at college, but the NFL is a very different game. Of course, that’s just my opinion. However, his problems with run/pass recognition I’ve watched for myself. That’s a lot harder to recover from at the pro level.

But don’t believe me, or Steve. Mike Nolan brought on Fields due in great part to the fact that Fields had the fastest explosion on the 49ers that year – they set up a high speed camera to prove it, and it was of sufficient importance to led to his signing. . Fields is a better fit at DE, but that explosion is a tremendous weapon.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 23, 2010 4:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks Emmett..

..good points all. I suppose only time will tell.

Either way, I think working behind J. Williams is a great opportunity for any NT, and I really like the mocks that I’ve seen where we pickup Cody in the second round, but I just don’t think he’ll slip that far.

"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty

by SteveAssassin on Mar 24, 2010 7:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

+1

good post Steve

Because Montana has no professional sports, I gotta support the land of my birth.

Socrates was once executed for 'trolling'.
^Needs explaining: don't call someone asking uncomfortable, slightly antagonistic questions trolls. In all odds they probably just want to learn. It's real easy to differentiate a 'Socratic' post from a trolling one (unless you're a resident of WCG).
^Needs further explaining: I have yet to post anything on WCG, don't worry, I'm not trying to rationalize anything I've done. I've just lurked over there and man, they are the model of post-peloponnesian war Athens.

by Drizzt396 on Mar 23, 2010 7:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks

"A man can fail, but he is not a failure until he blames someone else." J. Paul Getty

by SteveAssassin on Mar 24, 2010 7:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

I was listening to an Interview of McDaniels

Here at the Owner’s meeting in Orlando. It is an hour long and Josh talks about many things. He stated that he is happy with the depth at the D Line positions now that there is a good mixture of veterans and youth. That will make it easier to make better draft picks. He did not rule out drafting another lineman, but it didn’t sound too likely, IMO. He also said he believes in the mentor system; the young players learning from the vets and mixing in some playing time. There are more things that McD hints at and if you have the time, it is interesting to hear what Josh will tell you.

Nice job Emmett.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

by KaptainKirk on Mar 23, 2010 4:40 PM MDT reply actions  

great article

Just a correction on Vaughn Martin. He played Canadian university football at the University of Western Ontario…… just so happens to be the school i am attending, not CFL.

by DW76 on Mar 23, 2010 6:16 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks!

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 23, 2010 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Another new coach

on the site. You have done an outstanding job with this. I gave you a rec because you deserved it. I will call you “Coach Doc” from now on. You have equaled “Coach KaptainKirk” ( his special teams posts) with this post. Like Bronco112 said " I can sign off knowing that I have learned something new".

Again thanks for a great read.

by papasteven on Mar 23, 2010 6:38 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks Emmett

More accurately, the ‘real’ NT is one who gets the job done and done well within the scheme that the team prefers to use. The really isn’t a single size that is somehow ‘better’.

This says it all for me. There seems to be a common belief that bigger players have more stamina and are less prone to injury, but it all depends on the individual. Size is only one factor in an increasingly complex equation.

"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick

by azdenfan on Mar 23, 2010 7:46 PM MDT reply actions  

Emmett - what a helpful post

I’d like to comment on a couple of things but this is a really busy time for me so just a quick reaction.

If I had asked you, Emmett, to do a evaluation of my post (which I almost did via e-mail) I couldn’t have expected anything better than what you have done here.
As you can tell from my post, I’m still forming ideas and sorting things out.
You help that process as well as anyone, and for that I’m thankful.

Don’t actually disagree with anything you’ve said in response. It’s all been helpful.
The only thing I might do is, before I discard the term altogether, define a little better how i think of the term “prototypical” when talking of DTs and especially NTs. The various 3-4 schemes seem to look for linemen qualities from the following menu:
1. able to stuff the run;
2. able to occupy blockers – often accompanied with the “two gap” caveat;
3. able to push the pocket;
4. able to harass the QB – penetrate:
5. able to make quick reads and quick reactions.
Most of these call for some size, strength, quickness and smarts. And, as you pointed out, size and strength can’t compensate for lack of quickness or smarts – and vice versa, I guess.
And each scheme emphasizes one or more of these skills.
Theoretically, if a team had three or more players who did all of these excellently they could adapt any scheme they wanted – or change schemes during the game – during a series – even during a play, I guess.

Assuming there are few, if any, players who fit that definition of “prototype”, then you either pick the scheme or schemes to fit the skill set of your players or you pick players with the skill set of the scheme or schemes you want to run.

Here is where your article has been helpful to me. You lay out the various schemes more clearly than anyone. And you know more than I do about the comparative skills of players in the league as well as in the draft.

If you have access to a player that in your mind has all of the skills, I think you take him, no matter what scheme you prefer. That’s how I see “Prototype”.

But your introduction of the topic of the relative use of and potential merits of the various schemes and their preferred player skill sets when they are realistically more limited is something that I’d love to discuss on this site.

Thanks again for the wonderful post.

by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 23, 2010 10:13 PM MDT reply actions  

Incredible article, Em!

Your research and logic are unbelievable! Thanks for another excellent effort. I have to believe, though, that an MLB and OL should be drafted ahead of a NT.

Thanks again, and definitely rec’d!

"Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character." -- Albert Einstein

by hairybear on Mar 23, 2010 10:15 PM MDT reply actions  

Thumbs up for the article!

Thanks!

I also wish we knew the “skinny” on Baker :)

"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009

"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams

by Broncotodd on Mar 24, 2010 5:40 AM MDT reply actions  

Nice article, very informative.

Thanks for the time. I agree with most everything you said. Here are a few thoughts:

1. I don’t think Wilfork is anywhere close to 325 these days. He looks like he could be well over 350.

2. Ron Brace is somebody I did not want any part of in the first two rounds. I am a NT proponent, but I thought he was overvalued simply because he offered size in what was a very small defensive line draft (2009). I am glad McD didn’t draft him and I was surprised New England did. New England, in my opinion, did not have a very good draft.

3. I find Ron Brace to be similar to Cam Thomas in at least one way. Yes, they have slightly different skill sets but, in my opinion, both were (are) overvalued mostly because of their size. Don’t get me wrong, I think Thomas is worthy of a late second or early third round pick, but his production has not matched his impressive measurables. Cody, to me, is the better prospect and this will be reflected on draft day, I think.

by swg777 on Mar 24, 2010 7:23 AM MDT reply actions  

Interesting points, swg777

The last I saw of Wilfork was the 2008 season – sounds like he’s gone the way of many big guys before him. They only live to an average age of 54-57 years – did you hear about that? Coronary artery disease is the most common cause of death. They literally eat themselves to death. I guess after years of the coaches telling you to keep that weight up (or down, depending on the time of year) they have serious problems when they retire. There’s a second piece of that puzzle – gaining and losing large amounts of weight, repeatedly, is very hard on the heart. My patients used to call it the ‘rhythm method of ’girth’ control’, but if you’re talking 30+ lbs each time, the results can eventually be fatal. That’s not a reason to take or not take a player – just a sideline that I thought some folks might be interested it.

I wasn’t a ron Brace advocate for a number of reasons. I thought that he’d have to sit for a while and be trained, and that didn’t fit with Denver’s plans at all. If they take one of these three – or another, for that matter, as there are a few that I didn’t have room or time to get to – whoever it is will be in rotation pretty much right away, I’d expect.

Your point on Thomas is well taken, and I think that it goes beyond him. We, as fans, are often entranced with metrics. We’re not alone, either – every year there’s a guy or a bunch of guys who zoom up the draft board on metrics and drills. Many of them bust – the film may show that they can’t really play, they’re just athletic as heck. Cam is probably a better player than most that I’m thinking of, but as I noted, he’s really not in the same level as Cody and Williams.

My preference for Williams is based in a lot of things, but as I’ve said several times, I expect both players (and Thomas, more than likely) to be successful at the NFL level. We don’t have access to GPA, interviews, Wonderlic (limited as it is) and so forth. A lot rides on their football smarts at the next level, and I wish all of them the best.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 24, 2010 11:09 AM MDT reply actions  

Terrific work as always Em.

Excellent.

I’ll jump in a little on Steve’s point earlier in the comments, where he wrote that he is more concerned about a 2 gapper being able to take up space then to fire off on the snap. I understand his point, but with respect, still take your side on this.

While a one gapper is seen as more of a penetrator, and two gappers are seen as guys who occupy the opposition, the ability to fire off the snap with speed is still critical to both (very different) techniques.

I don’t have to expalin the importance for one gap. The “first to fire” has a monstrous advantage that even trumps size and strength. I’ve seen (literaly) hundreds, if not thousands, of slow motion films of guys firing off the line (on either side of the ball) winning the trench war virtualy every time. I taught dozens of techniques, ranging from stance to different types of swims, punches, etc, to get through a line; nothing was as important as getting the player to make the first move.

However, with all respect to Steve above, this is critical even when penetration isn’t the goal. The first to fire unbalances his opponent; a concept that goes to the heart of everything from judo to sumo. This means that our two gapper doesn’t want to be off balance against two OLmen (who are also trying to move first), and wants to be on his feet and centered should some fool RB try to get either gap. The LBs are much more protected by a 320 plus NT who has his center of gravity rather than being the NT who is trying to keep his balance instead of tying up the OL.

Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.

"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables

by Steve Nichols on Mar 24, 2010 11:11 AM MDT reply actions   3 recs

Thanks, HT

I find that this is one of the most important areas in defensive line play, and is one that is often misunderstood. Thank you, once again, for teaching on this one.

For anyone who wants to know more about the 3-4 – Steve/Hoosierteacher wrote these among others:

This one on the 5-2

This one on 3-4 Blocking Responsibilities Part I

This one on 3-4 Blocking Responsibilities Part II

This one on the nose tackles’ effects on the team

and enough others that I’ll embarrass him more if I go on. I consider Steve to be the best resource that MHR has ever had, and it’s a pleasure to have a chance to mention it. Thanks, teach.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 24, 2010 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

There is so much fine writing at MHR by you and others...

…that I have long ago stopped being “the” Xs and Os" prof . I’m glad to be part of a large community of educated and talented writers. Our faculty is always growing, and there is (of course) a department chair named for you at MHR-U.

All the best Em!

Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.

"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables

by Steve Nichols on Mar 24, 2010 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

right on

I just read “Meat Market” by Bruce Feldman. I can’t remember how many times he wrote about Ed Orgeron (not just a great recruiter, but also a very experianced d-line coach) hitting on the importance of the initial blast by the d-lineman. You and Orgeron seem like kindred souls, at least in this one area:)

by The Wad on Mar 24, 2010 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ed and I agree, but...

…the dirty secret is that every defensive line coach preaches the same thing. It is the most basic “law” of coaching a defensive line.

It sounds crazy, but no matter how much somebody buys into the concept of “the initial blast”, one just can’t imagine the extraordinary proof given by game film. I remember our DL coach drilling this into our players almost every film day. Whenever I would see the different films from different games, the conclusion was always the same. EVERY time the OL or DL shot off the line before the other guys, they won; period. The only thing to be kept in mind is that the OL MUST obey the snap count, and the DL MUST watch the ball for movement.

All of the dozens of other techniques (in line play) only pay off if both sides fire off at the same time. Between two near perfect lines, the other factors come into play. At the pro level, the timing between the DL and OL is going to be darned close. At the HS level, the team with the most focus can win in the trenches on nearly every play.

Strength, build, balance, technique; all of these things only come into play when both sides are near simultaneous. As physics shows, momentum (and the speed generated from it, even in close quarters) is everything during collisions.

Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.

"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables

by Steve Nichols on Mar 24, 2010 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

Going back a ways in time there was a DL named Alan Page.

He played for the Vikings and was one of the Purple People Eaters. He had the quickest burst off the line of any big man I’ve ever seen. He was sometimes called off side erroneously because he moved at the same time as the snap, but slow motion would always show he was onside. He became the first defensive player to be named MVP. He became a judge after football and now sits on the Minnesota Supreme Court. He was so fast he could beat triple teams because or his blast off the line.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Mar 24, 2010 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm in love!

lol

He really is a great story.

Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.

"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables

by Steve Nichols on Mar 24, 2010 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Page became a Bear back when I lived in Chicago

I seem to recall that he also earned an academic award that was rare – This is only Wiki, but it’s a start:

Following high school, Page attended the University of Notre Dame, where he led the school’s storied football program to a national championship in 1966. That same year, Page was named a college football All-American for his achievements on the field.

He was presented with one of the 1992 Silver Anniversary Awards (NCAA) for achieving personal distinction since his graduation. In 2005 he was awarded the National Football Foundation Distinguished American Award. In between he was inducted into College Football Hall of Fame (1993).
In 1967, he participated in the East-West Shrine Game and 25 years later received the “Babe Hollingbery” Award for his outstanding and lasting performance as he was inducted to that game’s Hall of Fame. Named to the Academic All-American Hall of Fame in 2001 and as such received the Dick Enberg Award. Also a winner of the Walter Camp Alumni of the Year in 1988.1. In 2002, he was inducted into International Scholar-Athlete Hall of Fame. 2004 winner of the Theodore Roosevelt Award (NCAA) which is awarded to a graduates from an NCAA institution who earned a varsity letter for athletics and who ultimately became a distinguished citizen of national reputation.

What a guy he was! You loved watching him play – he was so smart on the field that he made people look foolish. Great memories.

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 24, 2010 3:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thank you!

As a youth football coach that has no real experience with the offensive or defensive line I greatly appreciate the concepts you presented here.

Please cut me a little slack; I’m a small, speedy guy that filled the WR/CB/KR role in high school. Although, there were years in high school when I was also the long snapper. Go figure! It did provide an advantage on punts since I was NEVER called for illegal man down field – but I was every time and I’d use my speed to go make the tackle. Which also reminds me of this baseball play that bent the rules with my wheels, but I digress…

Okay, I got a bit of subject, but the point of my comment is now I have something concise and concrete to teach the linemen on the team. We focus a lot on taking the correct first step to dictate where the opponent will go, but have not brought enough attention to “the initial blast.” This will help immensely. Thanks!

My roots are in Denver, but my branches grew in Nebraska and my leaves fell in Lincoln.

by Blackshirt4Broncos on Mar 24, 2010 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

I LOVE youth coaches!

You guys set the tone for a young person’s athletic years, do it for the love of the kids and the game (without pay), and are excellent role models to the kids and the community.

But yes, hit the concept of firing out of the stance with all of the power one can muster, and doing it as close to the snap of the ball as possible. Have the kids practice against hard counts if possible so that they learn to watch the ball instead of listening to the QB.

In fact, we drilled the concept every single day of practice. We also preached it constantly during games. It is THAT crucial.

I once got to see the football team from the deaf school in Indianapolis play. Folks around me were wondering if there was some connection between being deaf and being tough (the OL and DL for these guys were dominant). Of course, these folks were dead wrong. The kids on the DL side watched the ball and fired out at the moment of the snap, beating the OL from the other (hearing) team every time. It was a slaughter.

Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.

"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables

by Steve Nichols on Mar 24, 2010 5:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

The deaf football team wonderfully illustrates your point!

Yes, coaching has been a blast. I started as a result of my son, but am seriously considering continuing after he becomes too old.

Last Fall the football coaches from the high school that our youth team feeds into met with all of us to discuss their decline in numbers. Apparently, youth players had been having such a terrible experience in the youth tackle programs that they were not trying out for the high school team.

The point certainly hit home since this high school is my alma mater. So, yes, the potential impact of a youth coach is well understand by this one. I was very impressed with the high school coaches (especially being the varsity coach’s first year) looking to establish relationships and continuity between the youth tackle program and the high school program to make sure these kids are having fun, exciting, rewarding youth football experiences. . If I can somehow help make this happen all the better!

Regarding firing out, it is interesting to me how much an impact teaching a concept will have depending on how it is framed or taught to the players. Hope that wasn’t too confusing. What I am getting out is we practice firing off on the cadence on basically all of our drills. When we are warming up and doing high knees we go on a count – never a whistle. We implement this whenever we can.

However, we have not done the best job getting the players to correlate “firing out on the right cadence” to necessarily mean getting that “initial blast.” I guess it’s been more of a team-oriented concept that needs extra attention for the big uglies. I appreciate the insight into how you teach the cadence and firing out. I will be adopting them : )

This Spring has an extra twist thrown in. I’m coaching 4th graders (pretty much all 10 year olds), half of whom played tackle last fall and will be again next fall mixed mostly with kids who have played flag before but not tackle.

The trick I’m presented with is firing out in flag football is not the same as firing out in tackle football. It has been a challenge to find the balance between firing out while following the “non-contact” rules of flag while at the same time trying to prepare these kids for tackle football. I’d love MHR’s insight into this battle!

For flag, the main approach we are using right now is to teach the defense to fire into a gap, get position, and then maintain that position/gap while diagnosing the play. On offense, it’s more of a screen block technique that you use in basketball. I’ll have to do some thinking on this but any suggestions on how to teach the fundamentals of firing out into a screen block would be great.

Even though I can talk coaching and football all night and day I will cease my response… for now. Thanks again!

My roots are in Denver, but my branches grew in Nebraska and my leaves fell in Lincoln.

by Blackshirt4Broncos on Mar 24, 2010 5:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know nothing about the rules for flag.

I wouldn’t be able to give you any good advice for your linemen there.

On the other hand, most youth programs are great about helping out coaches (they’re grateful to have you out there), so I would ask your league office or director for advice. He or she can likely point you to someone (perhaps another coach) that is a good resource. Its all about helping the kids at this stage.

Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.

"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables

by Steve Nichols on Mar 25, 2010 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ruben Carter

All this talk about nose tackles and not one mention I found to the greatest bronco nose of them all, Ruben Carter. One more instance of the SI jinx hitting in a big way. Ruben gets his face on the cover of SI and the next thing you know the Broncs have no NT worth a darn for 20 years. Here is to hoping this is the year the jinx is broke! If Williams is more than a shadow of his former self, then I’m a believer.

by The Wad on Mar 24, 2010 11:35 AM MDT reply actions  

Greg Kragen wasn't bad...

… wasn’t particularly good, a was a bit undersized, but was serviceable.

by cjfarls on Mar 25, 2010 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

Doc,

You’re simply incredible. Thanks for all this in-depth information

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Mar 24, 2010 1:29 PM MDT reply actions  

Ditto what BS said.

I have nothing to add. I feel like a thief of wisdom whenever I finish reading one of your posts.

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6

by Troy Hufford on Mar 24, 2010 1:45 PM MDT reply actions  

And I learn more from you folks every time

i wanted to mention that this is one of the times that I really appreciate this community. Not one person did anything but add to the conversation, intellectually and respectfully. I can easily see the perspective of each person who has stepped in, and each had a point to offer that clarified the discussion. Anyone who wanders through this thread can go away with a more thorough perspective on each player and on the nature of the position. Thank you very much, guys. What a great experience!

PS – Ruben Carter Rules!

It all starts with the lines

by Doc Bear on Mar 24, 2010 2:27 PM MDT reply actions  

Excellent read, Emmett. Rec'd!!

I saved this for future reference yesterday. I will do so today with more comments. This is an awesome post and comments. And I haven’t read it completely.

I was thinking yesterday how the Broncos in the early 70’s used to insert OT Mike Current into the DL in goal line situations. Guess we don’t have to do that anymore with these guys.

Thanks for your time and energy.

by Blackknigh on Mar 24, 2010 4:15 PM MDT reply actions  

HAte to burst the bubble a bit

But Fairbanks had Ray “Sugar Bear” Hamilton as the primary NT, and he was barely 6-0 tall and weighed 245 pounds. He got by with awesome quickness, often the opposing OC could barely lay a hand on him.
When Red Miller took over in Denver, he used Rubin Carter as the primary NT at 6-0 and 250 lbs., with John Grant 6-3 240 ponds as the backup.

Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth

by IgorBStrange on Mar 25, 2010 1:22 AM MDT reply actions  

In olden days 260 lbs was considered the upper limit of a lineman.

There is a quote somewhere from one of the old NFL coaches who, when labeled “a genius” remarked that a 260 lbs lineman will make any NFL coach a genius. Don’t remember who said it or when. Don’t even know how to check on it.
Just remember it.

by ivanthenotsobad on Mar 25, 2010 8:45 PM MDT reply actions  

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