The Tale of Dustin Fry
We've been talking for weeks now about the nose tackles in this league, on this team and in this draft. It seems that every time I turn around, some other NFL team has decided that the intelligent answer to the short passing-based attack that has been sweeping the NFL is to move to the versatility of the 3-4 formation. As more and more teams use this attack as their primary or secondary weapon (in the case of some of the hybrids formations, another commonality in the NFL right now), there is a growing demand for nose tackles. Big ones and shorter ones, faster and slower ones, nose tackles are becoming one of the talks of the league.
When you see a growing trend towards the 3-4, 5-2 and hybrid formations that require a NT, you're quickly going to see counter-moves by the offenses in the league. It's been going on since Org realized that he could hit Ulah with a rock from farther away than Ulah could whack him with a stick - the move and countermove that we have seen in the evolution of human society has been seen in small in the game of NFL football. One of the counter-moves that you might begin to see may be a greater emphasis on the center and guard positions. Someone has to stop the big guys from making burgers out of your 12 million dollar quarterback. Your primary investment loses value quickly if he's throwing a desperate pass with 325 lbs of nasty leaping onto his head. Those someones who protect that QB have often been nearly forgotten in the dash for more points, the fantasy standings and the glory hounds who play what are still called the skill positions. From my own perspective, keeping the Ngatas of this world from making post holes with your QB's head is definitely and categorically a skill.
The Broncos have a guy who is nearly unknown, but who is the only straight up center listed on the current team roster. Let's face it - offseason, predraft team rosters are nothing more than a little guesswork and a lot of smokescreen that fulfills an NFL requirement. But even so, as things stand right now, Dustin Fry is the only pure center on the Denver Broncos. That may change between now and the end of the draft, but for the moment, we should probably get to know the man who may be snapping the ball to Kyle Orton on the first day of the 2010 season.
Dustin W. Fry was born in Hawaii, but grew up in Summerville, NC, where he went to high school and received an education in football as well as his studies.He attended college at Clemson, and played well for the Tigers. He has a history of a few knee injuries that required surgery, including a dislocated kneecap (ouch) in202 that granted him a medical hardship red-shirt year. He also had an arthroscopic left shoulder surgery in January of 2004 and a right knee arthroscopic procedure in 2005. No ill effects appear to have lingered with any of these issues. They are not unusual for players on the offensive line.I asked Ken 'Digger' about his feelings on Fry, and he had this to offer. I thought it too good to keep it to myself:
Before we all go crazy over this years prospects at Center I would like you to read about this guy.
Height: 6' 3" Weight: 326 lbs.
Scouting Reports:
The good: He is a tough, nasty, smart, scrappy, blue-collar lineman who works well in a short area where he uses good power and leverage. He gives it his all from the snap to the whistle, and is very capable of quickly getting good position in his blocks and sustaining until the play is finished. He has good balance, the agility to slide laterally, does well at mirroring the defender and is seldom on the ground. He has a relentless attitude that allows him to finish despite marginal physical talent.The bad: He is only adequate on the perimeter at pulling. He has only marginal speed and striking ability at the second level. His hand punch is acceptable, but could be more forceful to stop the initial charge better. He lacks flexibility and the agility to recover if beaten on a play. He has short arms, which add to the problem.
Outlook: He ran a 5.47 time in the 40-yard dash with 34 bench press reps at the Combine, but sat out the rest of the workout with a pulled quad. He has definite NFL starting ability - maybe sooner than most think. He combines all the tools to become a fine NFL interior lineman with enough athleticism to also spot start at guard.
Who is this guy? I'll give you a hint, he's already a member of the Denver Broncos. He was the 139th pick in the 2007 draft. He took over full-time center duties as a sophomore. With his low center of gravity, girth and squat frame, he has made it a habit of putting defenders on their pants, registering 171 knockdowns while manning the pivot. Has started at offensive guard and tackle during his career. Made all the play calls for the line. Able to read the defense. He participated in the Senior Bowl. While in High School he captured the state Class AA championship in wrestling. Every bit as good as Matt Tennant, J.D. Walton or Eric Olsen. He is Dustin Fry. I know what your thinking , "How good could he be, his whole career has been on the practice squad?" I don't really have an answer to that other than he has been stolen off team's practice squads so he doesn't suck. I can also tell you that any of the three from above, maybe even Maurkice Pouncey, is going to have a rookie learning curve and may not be ready to start. Remember last year when everyone was convinced we needed massive upgrades on the DL and McDaniels ignored it completely? Remember how Ryan McBean came out of nowhere? From a guy we picked up off Pittsburgh's practice squad to becoming our starter? I see Fry possibly doing the same thing. Here's the problem. I'm pretty sure Fry has used up all of his practice squad time. If we draft a center that is not ready to step right into the starting lineup and we go with Fry what do we do with the new guy? Or the draft pick is ready to start, how do we hide Fry? The more I look at our line (RT Harris RG Kuper C Fry LG Olsen LT Clady) it is pretty darn solid. Reserve guards Hochstein and McChesney are OK. Back up tackles Polumbus, Batiste and Gorin need major upgrade. My solution? Draft Iupati or Ducasse. Plug them into Olsen's spot. Olsen, Hochstein and Batiste are backups. McChesney on PS still and pick up an undrafted Tackle for the PS.
You can agree or argue on Digger's solution, but his points on Fry are well worth consideration. It's a fact of life - the 3-4 is currently going to stay popular for a while. I've watched centers around the league getting hammered by these men at NT, and it's my own belief that an upgrade in size as well as technique at the center position is essential. Wiegmann was a major stud his first year here in Denver, and was a huge pain in our necks when he fought against us for KC (as he will again this year). Tom 'Nails' Nalen was a great, great player, but in the modern NFL, he may have also been a little too small for what is going to be needed, moving into this new decade.
The league is always changing. It's a copy-cat organization, taken as a whole. Bigger and bigger defensive lines lines will require technique, agility and size, rolled into one package. That's going to go for the tackles and guards, certainly, but the center will need those and will also have to have a degree of cerebral ability that must outshine every offensive player but the QB. There aren't going to be a lot of players with all of those qualifications - size, tenacity, that much-loved nasty streak, smarts, technique and skill. Those that have them all will be increasingly valued.
What does Fry bring to the table that Digger didn't mention? Let's start with his college days. He was a candidate for the Rimington Award, given to the nation's top center, in 2006. He played in 46 games with 26 starts at Clemson, registering 171 knockdown blocks. In 2006 as a senior, he started 13 games and opened holes for offense that ranked fifth in the nation in rushing with 217.9 yards per games. That same offensive line allowed only 1.2 sacks per game, the fifth-lowest figure in the nation. but there was something else that helped him to stand apart from other centers, and it bears directly on what I perceive as one of the keys to the modern OL game. In an interview with Ed Thompson of the Clemson school newspaper, Fry mentioned this:
"In the past, when centers made the calls, it was like "you make this call no matter what, you're not reading the defense, you just look, you find the Mike, you make that point." When I kind of took over, more so in my senior year, he gave me more leniency to read the defense more, read the safeties, make your point on what you think they're going to do. It's not like I was just out there like "okay, I think he's coming." We had a game plan. We watch blitzes over and over and if they're a boundary blitz team from the field, what kind of blitzes they run. When I started feeling more liberal in my points and got to read more, it made the game a lot more fun, too. I think it helped out the team a lot better because you can put the guys in the right position to make the right plays."
As intriguing as that is, there was another quote that drew my attention even more. Consider this:
Ed Thompson, interviewer: In 2006, about sixty percent of Clemson's rushing yards came up the middle. That shows a tremendous amount of confidence in you and the guys that were shoulder to shoulder with you. Talk a little bit about that.
DF: Yeah, me and my interior line guys, we came in together and we took a lot of pride in being able to run up the middle and convert short-yardage plays. My right guard and left guard, we love running that inside zone right behind either one of us, right up the gut. We really take pride in that and the backs we had, they made it a lot easier for us.
For a team that has struggled mightily to run up the middle when it is needed, that has to be worthy of serious consideration. The weakness of the 3-4 defense is traditionally exploited by neutralizing the NT and running the ball right up the middle. The Broncos have been failing on that account, and it's cost them several games. Between an aging Wiegmann last season and trouble at left guard and right tackle, running up the middle has been more of a fantasy than a weapon. If Fry can be part of the solution, he'll do well in 2010. It's not like there aren't any Broncos who came off the PS to start recently. Ryan McBean is an obvious example. DJ Johnson left Denver's PS to play with the New York Giants. Tony Carter came on and contributed late in 2009. The line between the PS and the starting squad is often thinner than the fans can know. This could be one of those times.
As a side issue, what's the history of increasing the pay of the offensive line when defenses get bigger, stronger, faster and meaner? Many of you know that it was Pat Bowlen who started the trend of paying left tackles and even guards far above the current market scale, back in 1993. He realized that in order to win the Lombardi Trophy, John Elway would need both a running game and an offensive line that didn't permit the defense to gang-tackle the QB. Pat stepped in and signed guard Brian Habib and left tackle Don Maggs for the then unheard-of sum of 1.5 million dollars, taking a lot of flack from other owners for it. A Broncos spokesmen quickly pointed out the obvious - that John Elway had been sacked 52 times the previous year. Maggs and Habib were being paid to put a stop to that. They did, too. By 1995, Elway's sacks were down to 22, and they stood at 18 for his final, triumphant year in the NFL. A few days after the Denver OL signings, less of a fuss was made when the Colts paid Kirk Lowdermilk, their starting center, a cool 2 million dollars a few days later. That's a trend that I could see increasing. Fry, if he can step into the starting role, could become a very well-paid gentleman. He has the size, the training as a center and a big window of opportunity. Whether or not he fulfills it is another story, one that is yet to be written.
There's no doubt that NTs in the NFL are getting bigger and stronger; even though some of them are not extremely tall or heavy, they all know how to move their strength around. The center of the future is gong to hvae to reflect that tendency - technique is essential, but technique combined with strength is better still. That's another area that Fry brings some substance to the table:
ET: And you were named an All-American Strength and Conditioning Athlete by the National Strength and Conditioning Association. What do you think you did while you were at Clemson that helped gain you that type of recognition?
DF: I think just how I showed my coaches how I worked in the weight room. The numbers I came in with and the numbers I left with, how much I increased with those. Leadership in the weight room, just how you conduct yourself, a lot of guys just watch you to see how you work out. If you start slacking a little bit, they're going to slack a little bit, too. I really enjoy the weight room and that atmosphere and I think it was just my strength coach just rewarding me. Since I'd been there that was an award that I wanted to earn.
You have to like the strength. Without technique, it's just a passing interest - lots of guys who can't play are strong. The difference is, not many guys who are unusually powerful are also candidates for the Rimington Award. This comes from his Clemson bio:
...among the strongest players on the team; his 500-pound bench press in February of 2006 tied for seventh-best by a Clemson lineman since 1984; tied with Nathan Bennett for the team lead in that category...his 1,830 total pounds lifted in all areas is fourth-best on record and best on the team...had 36 reps of 225 pounds, the sixth-best figure by a Tiger lineman since 1984 and the best on the 2006 team by nine reps...had a 655-pound squat lift in 2006 that was tied for first on the team with Roman Fry; tied with him for the team-best in the hang clean (410) as well.
To add to the overall picture, you need to go back to his high school days. He played for Summerville, NC. and he was coached there, in high school, by John McKissick, the winningest high school football coach in United States history. Fry was also a state champion in wrestling as a junior and won second in the shot put state title as a junior. He started at offensive guard and tackle during his HS career, and recorded 80 knockdown blocks as a senior, grading over 80 percent for blocking consistency in every game. he was rated as one of the top four football prospects in the state of South Carolina and played in the Shrine Bowl after his final season. That's a very good start to a possible professional career: Players who are winners tend to start that way and end that way. The start is a matter of history - the end has yet to be played. But the more that I knew about Dustin Fry, the more comfortable I became with where the Broncos are now.
I believe in adding the negatives to the upbeat profiles of each player - none of them are all good or all bad, Nate 'The Helmet' Webster aside. Fry deserves a look at both sides of his pre-draft scouting reports. I'll go with the positives first, from cbssports.com:
Positives: Lacks muscle tone (Note - that one has been addressed), but has good overall body thickness, long arms, natural strength, round midsection, thick hips, thighs and calves and big bubble ... Has good knee bend and balance for a player with his girth, showing good quickness firing off the snap to block in space ... Has adequate foot movement in his kick slide and does a good job of mirroring the defender in one-on-one action ... Plays with a nasty streak and likes to use his hand punch to shock and jolt ... Made good strides as a senior to improve his marginal hand placement, appearing to be more active shooting and recoiling his hands with force ... Uses his leg drive to wall off and turn the defender while maintaining position, doing a nice job of coming off the snap to reach the interior defender ... Gets out of his stance nicely, generating good explosion to generate movement off the snap for the running game, showing functional quickness in the short area ... Uses his hands properly to set, pop and stop the bull rush charge, and learned in 2006 how to use his body mass to deliver more force behind his blocks ... Despite his girth, he demonstrates decent knee bend and flexibility, staying low in his anchor ... Plays flat-footed, making good body adjustments in his lateral slide and rolls his hips and punches with his hands to drive the defender off the ball ... Very effective at bumping the defensive tackle, climbing into the short area and redirecting to hit and land on targets in space ... Tough lineman who will compete and challenge defenders ... Smart and very instinctive, making all of the calls at the line, rarely making any assignment mistakes ... Hard worker in the weight room whose 500-pound bench press ranks among the best all-time by a Clemson player ... Has the leg base to keep his balance dropping back in pass protection (will get jerked forward by a defender when he gets too tall in his stance, though) ... Does a nice job of incline blocking, adjusting to stunts on the move.
Negatives: Inconsistent getting to the second level, lacking the sustained speed and tends to get top heavy, crossing his feet and narrowing his base to make it easy for defenders to pull him down to the ground ... While he has a good hand punch, he will overextend, causing him to not sustain blocks for long ... Relies more on strength, as he is not known for getting position and finessing his man ... Trips over his feet trying to get out to neutralize the linebackers ... Has an effective hand jolt, but will still revert to catching the defender rather than rocking him back at times ... Must learn to play at a lower pad level, as he gets too upright in his stance ... Can handle defenders one-on-one, but is susceptible to the speed move ... Good on the short pull, but struggles to locate linebackers, as he tends to keep his head down moving up field ... Has improved his hand placement, but needs to reset them quicker in order to defeat counter moves.
The Broncos do have other options. they used Seth Olsen at center on the scout team last season. Could Olsen take the starting slot? A 6'5, 308 player, he was trained there last season, but doesn't have a long history at the position. He's also unusually smart, has good if not great size and is another Iowa OL - that school consistently turns out some of the best trained OL players in the nation. But, Fry has an edge in experience as well as size. Russ Hochstein (6'4, 305) has also been mentioned by Josh McDaniels as a possible next center. Like the others, he's a size upgrade over Casey Wiegmann. He has some credentials, too - he started 25 games in his regular-season and playoff career with the Patriots at five different positions-10 games at center, seven games at right guard, five games at left guard, two games at fullback and one game at tight end, which pretty much covers why McD is holding on to him. That kind of versatility is hard to find and hard to pass up on, especially for those of us who are hoping that Spencer Larsen will get a break from playing fullback and see if he can handle the duties at ILB. But Hochstein didn't show me, last season, what I wanted to see from a Denver OL player. He did, however, register 342 career knockdowns as a three-year starter and all-Big 12 performer at right guard at the University of Nebraska and has some SB rings to his credit, so he's not chopped liver, either. But is he a better candidate than Fry?
In the end, the question may well be whether or not any of these three are good enough to keep the Broncos attention or whether a center is required in the draft. In my own opinion - required? No. Desired? Only those who've seen Fry, Olsen and Hochstein snapping the ball can tell us that, and they aren't talking. But when the fans are deeply concerned with the seeming lack of a center, and thrown off by what seems to be a lack of urgency on the part of McX and company, it could be a good time to take a deep breath. the Broncos may take a center in the draft. If they do, it's likely that he will follow in the footsteps of most offensive linemen - he'll sit out the first year. That may not be true if they take a OL in the first or second round - or it may be true, even so. The learning curve from dominating in college to succeeding in the NFL is often steep, and there are few players like Ryan Clady who can make the jump seemingly effortless. Only time will tell
Without question, I expect that the Broncos will address the OL to some degree in this draft. When they will so do, and whether they will immediately start that player is a different set of questions entirely. We know almost nothing of monster guard Matt McChesney, and about as much about D'Anthony Baptiste. They are the wild cards in this game, possible options that could change the entire nature of the draft if they turn out to have the skill to get onto the field on game day. But that's one of the many things that is making this offseason so exciting, so interesting. Many teams are more established. They are more predictable in the draft becuase their rosters are nearly set. In Denver, nearly every position on the team is open for the taking.
If that doesn't get your blood going, you probably just aren't a Broncos fan. As for me - this is one of the most enjoyable offseason in recent memory. The draft has been compared to the experience of Christmas morning. OTAs and training camp will be just as intriguing, given the number of unknowns that the team and its fans are faced with. One of those unknowns is the possibility of Dustin W. Fry. We'll know a lot more after the draft. Happy Draftivus to all.
Note; This article would not have been possible without the substantial and greatly appreciated efforts of Kaptain Kirk Davis, who put together most of the research for me, based on an old template that I developed years ago. In addition, the feedback and contributions of Ken/Digger filled out much of what I wanted to say herein. My deep thanks to both of them, and to all of the members who have been sending their thoughts, questions and comments to me, permitting me to develop the ideas that result in these works. My gratitude to them and to all - thank you.
Doc
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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I’ve mislaid the link to the hour long interview with McD – does anyone have it? Thanks
It all starts with the lines
Here you go
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
go
go
…..go.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Here you go
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Rec'd
Great work, Doc. I’ve been one of those guys who’s been clamoring for Pouncey or Walton. While I still think they’d be nice additions – Fry obviously possesses a lot of the qualities McD likes not only at the OL, but in all of his players. If he can trim down a tad to improve his agility and balance, things could be very interesting. I’ve learned (like most of us) to expect the unexpected. If you would have told me that we were going to trade up in the 2nd round last year and not land Ron Brace, I would have said you were crazy. Maybe center, won’t get addressed at all.
Well said Vortex
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Nice evaluation of our center position.
McD said recently he wasn’t at all concerned about who would relace Wiegmann, so I think he has a very good idea about the talent currently in place. The possibility he’s waiting for the draft to pick a starting center is really remote in my opinion. For depth maybe.
Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein
+1
To use the McBean analogy again, McBean won the position in camp and kept it all year, it is entirely possible that Fry could do the same thing.
But, McD has also said that he wants to add competition to all spots so adding a top C would only increase the competition for the starting job and most likely raise the performance of the competitors as well.
Doc… I love reading your articles, i was honestly a bit sad when you stepped down from the staff here, as i thought i meant we wouldn’t see much from you any more, couldn’t be happier that you are continuing to write..
by HorseStance on Mar 25, 2010 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions 6 recs
Amen that bro
Doc… I love reading your articles, i was honestly a bit sad when you stepped down from the staff here, as i thought i meant we wouldn’t see much from you any more, couldn’t be happier that you are continuing to write..
by bfree2bronc on Mar 26, 2010 10:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Awesome Doc
Thanks for this great exposition on a guy who may become a mainstay for the Broncos.
rec’d
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
As usual, Doc, fantastic work.
Fry is definitely bigger than I thought, and apparently, much better all-around than I thought.
Certainly looks promising as our starting center. Olsen is the only other possibility I see, since he got the reps last year. However, I think that Hoch can be ruled out as starting center, McD keeps him around as versatile backup extraordinaire, and it should stay that way.
It would really free us up in the draft to get more impactful players, and allow us to draft BPA if we knew we wouldn’t have to make emergency picks to shore up a weak spot.
Expecting BPA
With all the mock-draft guesswork going on right now, aren’t people actually expecting McD to draft BPA and upset all these predictions? We’ve only one year to go on, but this article makes a lot of sense, and to me explains how things have gone a little quiet on the FA stuff, and he’s now waiting to see what the draft brings, because, really, who knows what positions we’ll be drafting?
Still got your Creedence...
by OutOfYourElement on Mar 25, 2010 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Contradiction in reports
Maybe I missed something, but the first scouting report listed his short arms as a “bad” and the cbssports report listed his long arms as a “positive”.
GO BRONCOS!!!
Maybe he’s got one arm longer than the other? ;)
Measurement based qualifications seen so binary (good or bad) that 32" may equal good and 31.5" may be bad.
One group may have a different threshold for this distinction.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
You've just given new proof to the reason that I like to watch film ;-)
Yes, I’ve heard this kind of thing so often in scouting reports… Usually it’s something that the player used to do and has overcome, but sometimes it’s just plain silly. Thanks for catching that one – I’ll see if I can dig up a measurement.
By the way – even a measurement is only of limited usage. they need to measure from the center of the notch of the throat on down to the tip of the finger or at least the line of the wrist. Some players have huge chests, but their arms aren’t as long. Others have long arms but smaller chests. It would help to have both recorded – but it would also be nice if some scouts would actually look at the player!
It all starts with the lines
what do you think about just doing
a fingertip to fingertip measurement? One thing I always do is correlate the wingspan to height anyway, and they could save me a step just to give wingspan instead of reach…
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 25, 2010 4:16 PM MDT up reply actions
I like that - good thought
Much more accurate, when you think about it.
Much as folks including myslef are less than thrilled about some of the Combine testing, I keep hoping that the changes in medicine and sports physiology will lead to better testing, measuring and drilling at the Combine. Charles Dimry told me that it was kind of a pipe dream, since the owners have been opposed to it (they were opposed to the original combines and before that considered Paul Brown a fool for all his predraft scouting – right up until he started winning every year). Perhaps someday that one will become common place – it makes a lot of sense.
It all starts with the lines
I never could understand the 'reach' measurement when some have longer necks or taller heads.
Because they do deduct the measurement from the top of the head to the finger tips straight up, right?
by bfree2bronc on Mar 25, 2010 10:00 PM MDT up reply actions
The optimum is 35 or 35+. 32.5ish is about normal. Thanks again, Digger
It all starts with the lines
Thanks!
It’s great to know we have some up and coming center talent, and won’t have to rely on a 1st year center to anchor our line this year. I should know better than to think a planner like McD wouldn’t have a few options available.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
Thanks, Doc...
Love reading your posts, man. They teach me so much and usually change my mind about something I thought I knew. I love MHR….
"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today" -- Wimpy J. Wellington
great stuff
Who knows if he’s actually any good… but I know a lot more about him know than I did, and he’s intriguing.
I think its much more likely for a guy who has been learning NFL line-calls, etc. for a few years to step in as a starter than a rookie… even if it is only as a 1 year stop-gap. Being a 139th pick, its not like this guy was considered chopped liver coming out of college… thats roughly the same or just behind where guys like Tennant and Walton are projected this year… we just tend to rate them as 2nd/3rd rounders because we have the positional need…
I was preparing something similar Doc
and I almost emailed you because I figured you had a dossier full on the kid! :)
I mentioned before that if we found a draft in this center whose profile read like Fry’s did coming out of college, that I would be pretty happy with it.
The big question is why didn’t he make something of his NFL opportunity? I have been tracking down answers to that for most of the last two weeks. I haven’t found anything satisfying, but I can see a lotta “life” going on in Fry’s situation.
When he was drafted by St.Louis, the early reports were that he was in competition to start (and boy were they desparate). by his own admission he struggled to grasp the playbook (no indication on whether it was a smarts or work ethic thing though…I suspect work ethic) and by the end of preseason he was STs only player. He started the first four games as a G on the extra points and FGs, but wasn’t activated again for the rest of 2007.
The Rams front office was a drafting, decision-making nightmare. They absolutely FLOODED the oline positions with more draft picks and free agents in the 2008 offseason, and Fry ended up on the PS, but was released later to make room for an extra tackle, where StLouis was having tons of problems. No one claimed him off waivers but the Browns picked him up and placed him on the PS. The Browns too were going through regime change, but Fry signed a reserve future for 2009 offseason. He was part of the final cuts to take the team down to 53, and the very next day Carolina nabbed him for their PS. Denver signed him when his PS contract ran out last January.
My only thought on Fry is that Denver is a much different situation than he has been in recently…it is a little more stable and there is truly a need for him. I personally believe that what he needed to learn above all else was carpe diem, and hopefully 4 teams in 3 years is a catalyst for that. We can only see…
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 25, 2010 3:26 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
lol
“draft in this center” should be “center in this draft.” Dyslexia cure for found!
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 25, 2010 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Lol
Thought it was a “Yoda” ism I did!
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
I'm guessing
that a team rarely carries two centers on the active roster. They hide one on PS or have a G that could step in if needed. Carolina had Kalil and Cleveland had Mack. You can understand why he was put on the PS.
Which is one of the reasons
That McX likes versitility in players. The Bio stated he played guard and tackle also, the type that McD likes
1 center on the 53
usually teams limit themselves to around 7 OL on the gameday 45 and 9 OL on the 53, so there is room for 2 centers on the 53. Usually teams try to have a center capable of being plugged in on teh 45 as well, but there is a lot of variance from team to team on that. Dnver in 2009 was one of the teams doing the riskiest thing, which was to only have one center on the 45, and then have the starting G be the backup center. After Hamilton was benched it looked a little more normal since he was still activated every week as a backup G/C… that is what most teams have.
I agree Carolina had Kalil, no real chance there, Cleveland got Mack in 2009, so they let him go, they had Hadnot before that (and another guy, I forget who), so no real chance to break through there, and in his final year at StLouis I think Incognito was there, though he eventually moved to G.
What has no excuse was his fist season, which is why I brought up “Carpe Diem” — seize the day — He admitted he could have done more, which is the easy part….now he has to do more. I just think that he will have better everything here to work with: better coaches, better organization, better advice, better training methods, better system, better everything. Plus my early research at the position shows a large number of starting and backup centers in the league were basically non-existent in the league as far as playing time their first 3-4 years. Sometimes it takes time….
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 25, 2010 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes
Versatility is dominant on McD’s priority list.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Just about every player is able to play some other position and some even swap sides of the line.
Larsen and McChesney to name a couple.
by bfree2bronc on Mar 26, 2010 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions
McD said in the interview
That he liked Fry coming out of college. Seems to me that he will get his big chance in camp this year. The one thing I do know is that McX and company sure have a lot more info these players than we do. I think he felt that Fry was ready which is why he was willing to let Weigman go so early.
Greast post “Coach Doc” rec. I like these types of posts that are about specific players on the Broncos. Lot’s of good info and thanks.
Was there a cut-off dead line on Wiegmann's salary for 2010?
I can’t remember exactly when they cut him but it seems it was getting close to the date. Fry has already shown the coach what he can do and it wouldn’t surprise me either to see his name as starter.
by bfree2bronc on Mar 26, 2010 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Great Article Doc...Rec'd
Thanks to Digger and KK as well…Looks as though McD DOES have a plan…Imagine that!
- "It's March!" McDaniels said. "It's March, we don't have a depth chart. We have a bunch of sweaty guys in the weight room is what we have. Jeepers creepers." -
Doc. Awesome as always my friend!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
One thing I'm clear on
If the Rams and the Browns don’t like you, you’re either just gosh-awful or you’re pretty good and they can’t evaluate talent to save their lives. I’m considering that McD liked him coming out of college (where he majored in Sports Management, btw) and suspecting that he’s pretty good. We’ll find out in camp – much as Hochstein worries me, he does have some NFL starts at center under his belt, and Olsen took many of the snaps for the scout team. I’m feeling pretty good on that, but if we draft a center, that’s great too. Most of them can play guard, and we always need depth players with multiple position skills.
As usual, Jeremy summed up the conclusion –
What has no excuse was his fist season, which is why I brought up "Carpe Diem" — seize the day — He admitted he could have done more, which is the easy part….now he has to do more. I just think that he will have better everything here to work with: better coaches, better organization, better advice, better training methods, better system, better everything. Plus my early research at the position shows a large number of starting and backup centers in the league were basically non-existent in the league as far as playing time their first 3-4 years. Sometimes it takes time….
It all starts with the lines
That's
how I feel mostly. Fry is a college-pedigreed center. Hochstein, ideally a “supersub” IMO, has indeed been an NFL starter (for a pretty darn good team at that) at C. Olsen has been groomed to take Hamilton’s G/C role IMO. At any rate, last year he was given the ability to focus on getting better and learning without worrying about losing his job, and had PS snaps at C. That’s three options at center, and I don’t think we need to press the issue in the draft. If a center comes to us in the draft, so be it, but if Pouncey or Walton or whoever is a reach at our spots, I don’t think we have so great a need that we should panic and reach—it will only hurt other needs on this team if we do that.
The thing I keep seeing is that so many people assume that drafting a center means we have a new starting center, but we should know that O-line is a really hard transition from college to pro. Even the top flight prospects probably need time to adjust, and fans would likely be alarmed by what they see from a rookie center. Then we’d have all sorts of poor press on the guy’s back, and that can’t be good for anyone.
At any rate, if we truly feel none of our options are legit, we can sign Mawae (since he’s had zero interest from anyone so far) and he can stop-gap for a year. He’s at least a known quantity (a starting NFL center, but an average and declining one at this point IMO). As I have stated before, though, I would simply be frightened by a Mawae signing: it would indicate to me that there is a serious problem at C.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 26, 2010 10:35 AM MDT up reply actions
just to be clear
I’m not saying starting a rookie center is guaranteed to pan out in the way I described. Let’s just say it is “fraught with danger” though.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 26, 2010 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks, Jason
Your thoughts seem to essentially mirror Jeremy’s in one key area that I also have concerns in – with the exception of a couple of players over the past few years, almost no player comes in and starts at center. Your comment was:
The thing I keep seeing is that so many people assume that drafting a center means we have a new starting center, but we should know that O-line is a really hard transition from college to pro. Even the top flight prospects probably need time to adjust, and fans would likely be alarmed by what they see from a rookie center. Then we’d have all sorts of poor press on the guy’s back, and that can’t be good for anyone.
Jeremy said much the same thing:
“…my early research at the position shows a large number of starting and backup centers in the league were basically non-existent in the league as far as playing time their first 3-4 years. Sometimes it takes time….”
Some of the members have shown concern, particularly on other threads, regarding having a lplayer who was on a couple of PS. To me, that’s actually a benefit, especially when folks like Jeremy research who was in front of him and why his time at a certain location wasn’t a good fit for him.
I see a certain similarity to the Broncos situation with Mario Haggan. He wasn’t welcome in Buffalo any longer due to a wide variety of factors, but to give Shanahan/Goodmans their due, he was an excellent fit as they considered moving to a 3-4 defense. Since McD actually did make that decision, he had a built-in starting OLB or ILB with a skillset consistent with the needs of the team. Fry may be much the same.
I also recognize that he may not be – he’s an unknown factor at this time. What we do know is that McD has always been interested in having him on the team and liked what he saw since college. Fry didn’t put out the kind of effort that McD will require of him during his first year, if I am understanding Jeremy correctly, but that doesn’t concern me at this point. There are two reasons – first, young men make mistakes, see the results and often change what they’re doing. Second – McD will provide him with the kind of coaching – via Clancy Barone, who has a pretty stellar reputation as a coach – and I expect Fry to make strides, whether he backs someone up or starts for us. Either way – we aren’t in the position of ‘desperation’ as one member called it. I’m always open to a top rated center in the draft, but he’s going to have to fall to us, and right now, thre’s no way to see that happening. It’s going to be a great draft, and OTAs should be enlightening
It all starts with the lines
Just the mere mention of Dustin Fry by McD in his interview makes me think he has plans for this guy.
“There are a lot of times where you end up playing a younger player on your terms. Sometimes you can get stuck playing a player where maybe you have to hurry along the process and try to get him ready to go, but (OL) Russ (Hochstein) has played center in this league. © Dustin Fry is a guy that I liked coming out of college. We added him to the roster late in the year obviously and we will see kind of how that all plays out. We are not concerned right now. (G) Seth Olsen has snapped the ball before. We will see how it goes. We are not panicked about it, certainly, like I said, our focus is on the offseason program and we will worry about that as we go along.”
McD has been following this guy since his college days and as much as has been said or stated lately of the “DESPERATE” need for center, I’m not totally convinced that we don’t have him in house already. Thank you very much for the great and informative post Doc and rec’d for sure!
On another note, I thought it also intriguing that McD didn’t mention Baker’s name in the mix of the DLine when asked. It may have been a left out thought on purpose without drawing attention to him from other teams if he was to go back to the PS or he hasn’t developed far enough yet. What does anyone else take of this?
It is possible that the coach is moving slow with him so he could put him back on the practice squad.
I just don’t want a team like SD to snatch him off of it and say in your face for taking J Williams. I am hoping he can play a versatile role this year as backup NT and DE to give him some playing time. I’m just afraid if they put him back on PS he’ll be gone.
by bfree2bronc on Mar 26, 2010 10:15 AM MDT up reply actions
Chris Baker was never on the 2009 practice squad!!!
If he was put on the PS at 12noon, by 12:03 he would have been claimed on waivers.
Chris Baker was a steal as a 2009 CFA and Denver knows it.
The center needs smarts too
And experiance doesn’t hurt either. The big guy calls the blocking assignments and has to be on the same page with the QB at all times. The longer the two of them can work together in the same system, the better it is for the health of the QB. No matter what, the broncs face a change here this year. Could be that the broncs use someone as a stop gap for this year and focus instead on guard. Maybe that guard converts to center after a year or two in the league. This is one of the big unknowns for 2010 that I look forward to watching play out.
Well done & rec'd
Very suprised that McD didn’t start with the center during the FA signing period. Fry looks good on paper, but has zero experience and will face some very tough opposing players in 2010. Failure to come up with a good solution, could sabotage the offense. Any player that touches the ball on every play and makes calls, has to be top notch. Imo, not the position for a rookie. Josh knows best right?
Who should he have signed?
We looked at the one guy who may have been viable, and he wanted too much money/failed his physical. Its not like there were a lot of FA options…
One hopes
I do remember that they tried for Hadnot, but his financial expectations were very high.There wasn’t anyone else out there who excited me at all, and even he seemed more like a solid backup than a quality starter. I think that they believe that the guys on the team are capable of moving up, and I strongly suspect that this draft will produce a couple of OL players. I agree – this is a ‘central’ issue – they have to get this one right, or it’s going to be a long season. This makes draft days even more fun.
It all starts with the lines
Money as being a part of McDX's strategy to build the team was also mentioned and may have been a direct statement of the Hadnot no sign.
Who really knows what goes on in a masters mind?
by bfree2bronc on Mar 25, 2010 10:07 PM MDT up reply actions
You're right, bfree
But I will say this – TedB lives in Cleveland and has watched quite a bit of Hadnot. The more he saw, apparently the less he liked him. He wasn’t found of the idea of Denver taking him, and considers him a backup at best. I generally respect Ted’s viewpoint, since he bases it on weird things like actually watching film (lol). If Hadnot wanted bigger money, more power to AZ for taking him, and to McX for nto giving it out. .
It all starts with the lines
this is awesome!!
just what I was hoping to get to read…….now that supposedly he could be our OC, possibly?? Thx so much……MHR is the best, thx Emmett
so damn BIG
how many OCs are 326, I mean if this guy is solid, he totally falls into the trend of counteracting the enormous DNT. It completely makes sense with the way McD thinks and plans (way ahead), I just hope it works out.
Of course, it makes the drafting tough when you count on something that is uncertain. I think this means 2x things. First, the OC we pick up will be inexpensive. 2nd, expect the media to blast the Denver draft again.
I love it, another surprise 6-0, but maybe this time we finish!!!! Great piece again, thx for work
3 centers were taken before Fry
in the 2007 draft, Ryan Kalil, Samson Satele, Leroy Harris. All starters, now. Kalil right away. Satele started for two years for Dolphins to be rewarded with a trade to the Raiders for a 6th and a swap of 4ths. Harris played some G for Tenn and now is listed as starting C. My point is, drafting a center would not necessarily make our position more solid than it is right now. Even Pouncey may struggle with the adjustment to the pro level. Certainly he would struggle calling the line assignments. We do need to draft a T/G high in the draft and carry him on our active roster. We do not have room for a high round center prospect that would only be “safe” on the active roster. If we were to pick one up late or after the draft where he could be on the practice squad that’s a different story.
by Digger24 on Mar 25, 2010 9:50 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
07 was a banner crop of OCs
There have been more quality Centers in recent crops, which probably didn’t help Fry since it’s hard to carry a backup OC on your regular roster. (BTW — Fry was under Kalil in Carolina, which makes me wonder why they acquired him.)
Oddly, Tennessee having Harris on their roster is allowing them to let Mawae go. I view Mawae as an emergency backup plan in case we strike out on top-flight Centers in the draft. I’ve never liked the idea of relying on a rookie Center anyways, so — speaking hypothetically — a Mawae/Fry/Hochstein triad might cover us for a year while we further develop Fry and then take appropriate steps next year.
I’ve written on this topic before — neither our LG nor our OC position is well-suited to draftees because it’s too much of a burden on a non-veteran. We tried to fill this area in recent drafts but we only have Kuper left to show for our efforts. We hoped to bring in a FA and draft for the future in this draft (IMO). The only problem with this solution is that it’s hard to carry very many OLs. Attempting to remedy this problem now would leave us green and probably overstaffed on the OL. We don’t want to cut a draftee so we have draft carefully or not at all — strangely. For this reason, I’ve advocated late picks such as Hawley because they’re easier to keep on the PS because they’re less attractive to poachers.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Mar 25, 2010 11:02 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
That's right Ski and well stated.
I believe this, that every move McDX make is a well thought out and studied move. We have seen them bring players of the OLine in one at a time like gater the children in from the coming storm. Batiste, McChesney (back again) and Fry (who has 3 years of NFL experience on PS) are the secret society of our OLIne. I like what the FO has done thus far in free agency and limited draft evaluation and selection time. So why would we question now McDX’s ability make the OLine work in Kyle’s favor, or in Knowshon’s favor, or even in Royals favor? I believe we have a head coach who wants and strives to win and will try everthing possible to make it happen. Unproven draftee? Now that’s iffy!
by bfree2bronc on Mar 26, 2010 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Carolina
Carolina obviously needed a center that year so they definitely studied that position in the draft. Obviously they saw something in Fry which got him on the team. I think that’s a little reassuring since we don’t have much information on prospects other than this years.
but Ski..Mawae is no upgrade from Weigmanna Small and old. Yes both pro-bowlers but not in power blocking schemes, so
McX letting Weimann go tells me no to Mawae.
Mawae
A small improvement is better than nothing. I’m more impressed with Mawae’s body of work than Wiegmann’s. I also don’t think Mawae is as limited to ZB as Wiegmann was. My hunch is that McDaniels probably sees Mawae in a different light than the league source in the Kils article. I see Mawae as a fallback possibility if we don’t find an answer before the start of the season.
I see the size issue as a little more incremental than most. We need to get somewhat bigger but the more important point is that we need to improve on our pass blocking on the interior OL. The Hamilton-Wiegmann duo were even weaker as a pair. A Trent Williams-Mawae pairing (with Fry as a developing understudy, which we lacked last year) could be more productive than last year’s pairing.
I’d compare Mawae to Holliday at the this time last year. It may not currently look good for him but he still has enough value to possibly help us for a year as we transition. My position at the beginning of the process (of analyzing 2010) was/is that a UFA/trade is the best course of action — but we haven’t seen anything yet, surprisingly.
no goats, no glory.
Mawae not an answer.
Even as a stopgap he doesn’t fit. Not even as type of personality we want. I would say a undrafted rookie such as cook or Matthews would be a better option if it came to not picking up a C in the draft.
No way
If we don’t find our answer in the first rounds of the draft then Mawae would be a very smart and responsible move. Even if Dustin Fry turns out to be the rock star you guys paint him as, it would still be nice to have a competent and experienced backup. If, on the other hand, Fry doesn’t turn out to make his previous three teams look stupid (because they didn’t secure him a backup role on the roster), well, then it would still be nice to have a competent and experienced veteran to catch him.
Regardless of Mawae’s age and relative light weight, he’s a stop-gap that could really help our team if the draft doesn’t provide the immediate upgrade we’re hoping for. Even if just for the first half of the season, Mawae could buy some much needed time.
Give me impact at center, copmetence at guard and an upgrade at linebacker - sprinkle in strides from having the same system for two years in a row - and I'll show you a contender!
agree
I’m not trying to portray Mawae as the answer to all our problems but as a 6-time pro bowler who was voted in just 2 years ago he could have value for us. And he may appeal to McX even though it’s no guarantee that we’ll sign him. I see the potential for a veteran sharing part-time duties with Fry.
I dislike the bifurcation of ZB and power-oriented schemes. We’re not abandoning the inside zone although we won’t emphasize the stretch play as we used to. It sounds like being an OC in a ZB scheme is still experience that transfers over for what we want to accomplish.
All of this may not be an endorsement for Mawae as a player but there’s reason to be skeptical of reasoning offered against him. Titan’s fans appear to still regard him highly although nobody’s claiming he’s still in his prime ( LINK ).
2009 Tennessee Titans Roster Review: Offensive Line
" – While 2,006 yards should say it all for the O-line’s run blocking, it really doesn’t. While the agility and ability to get to the second level we key in springing CJ2K to more big runs than any back in the league, they continued to struggle at the point of attack at times. The results were some schizophrenic run block metrics at FO. The line finished 28th in stuffs (runs of 0 or negative yards), but 7th and 1st in 2nd level and open field rankings respectively. Some of that you can put on CJ, but it’s been a reoccurring theme with this group for years now; they just aren’t built in that Cowboys, Vikings, Ravens mold of sun-blocking mountain movers. Instead they’re somewhere between that and the Shanahan-era-Broncos mold of agile guards and center who move around to force the defense to react. …- "
" – Individually, Michael Roos continued to cement himself as one of the best all-around left tackles in all of football. David Stewart continued to be a mauler, even if he was more mistake prone in this campaign (see the Pittsburgh game) and struggled with a hamstring injury in the middle of the year. Mawae showed why he’ll be a sure-fire Hall of Famer, as the elder statesman of the unit continues to excel in the face of declining physical skills. Jake Scott and Eugene Amano both got pushed around at times, but both turned in very solid campaigns. – "
" – The personnel on the line has been remarkably consistent for the past few years, but that could definitely change this off-season. Once again it’s tough to forecast what will happen until there’s a firm decision on the CBA and the salary cap, but it wouldn’t surprise me at all to see either Amano or Mawae gone. Leroy Harris is waiting in the wings … – "
It doesn’t sound like Titans’ fans regard him as unable to make a significant contribution, and this was written less than two months ago. Again, it may not be a glowing endorsement of his ability but I place more emphasis on his ability to tutor younger players and provide leadership to our very green interior OL. I’d still like to find a veteran OC in his prime but the market is dry right now.
BTW — we were looking at Amano as our answer not long ago but Titans’ fans don’t seem to hold him in high regard.
A final point — I see us looking for OLs of the in-between mold mentioned above. I’m not looking for the undersized, athletic ZBers but I’m not looking Loadholtian roadgraders either. Of course, I could be completely wrong, but the Trent Williams/Saffold/Newhouse trio are an example of what I’m looking for. The only problem with the last two is their physicality, which I’d like a lot more of.
no goats, no glory.
It might also be worth a mention
that high character players, gret work ethic players like Mawae often seem to reach deep and somehow find more to give when they go to a new team late in their career. And as you said, even if he’s in a role share with Fry, it would be nice to have that leadership and tutoring from a HOFer like Kevin Mawae, a guy who’s seen and done it all.
Hopefully he’s still unsigned come April 25th, because I don’t think the team seems ultra interested in making a move until the first couple rounds of the draft play out.
For what it’s worth, I also agree on your take relating to what kind of interior linemen we’ll be looking to develop. Good examples, also.
Give me impact at center, copmetence at guard and an upgrade at linebacker - sprinkle in strides from having the same system for two years in a row - and I'll show you a contender!
assorted issues
There haven’t been indications of interest in Mawae but that’s typical for someone in his position. And I don’t think he regrets missing OTAs.
The draft will clarify things in terms of roster numbers for positions so I can’t see anyone wanting to do anything until after it.
A rough count of our roster (not including some of the unsigned UFAs) puts us at 64, with a limit of 80. That’s actually a rather meager amount of slack, although draftees don’t count against the limit until they sign. Just to provide a little more numerical context — our UDFA class contained 12 players. That means that we’d have to cut 2 players in order to get down to the limit if we were in the same situation after this upcoming draft. (6 draftees + 64 + 12 UDFAs = 82).
The point is that far less room to make moves than people realize. Roster limits have gradually shrunken, going from an unlimited amount in which over a hundred were in camp to a reduced size with exceptions for NFL Europa players, and then down to the current 80 limit recently.
Re: OL body types. I saw some things at the combine that swung me in their favor. And the three OLs — T Williams, Safford & Newhouse — have been rising on CBS since then, as well as been commented on by Mayock, et al. I only recently caught the news about Harris’ expected full recovery, so there’s less justification for an early pick. However, there’s no reason not to go to the OL early in the draft if the BPA. I don’t see the need for a lot of OL picks, and the late rounds and UDFAs are good place to find depth. Oddly, failing to address certain areas of the OL creates an incentive for quality UDFAs to sign. Low round draftees & UDFAs are where our future PS members will be found, and we have to attend to this since they’re our developmental players.
no goats, no glory.
that does sound
a lot like what we were saying about Wiegmann last year.
Jason
The Hanging Curve
by poorboywilly on Mar 31, 2010 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions
different players
I think the similarity in terms of age has led people treat them — quite mistakenly — as similar players. Titan’s fans speak of Mawae as a future HOFer. Wiegmann was a journeyman type who lasted a long time and only gained recognition for one season, 2008, when he replaced the AFC’s pro bowl starter, Kevin Mawae, who was injured.
Wiegmann provided veteran leadership and skills when Nalen’s injury prevented him from playing but the difference between Mawae and Wiegmann is like the difference between Nalen and Wiegmann. Any veteran would have value, in terms of what they’ve learned, but an elite Center’s experience and knowledge might have much greater value.
Oddly, I don’t think the teaching aspect of the job is that critical to the reasoning, since a good football mind and teaching ability don’t always accompany skill — so you’re right, but there’s nothing wrong with having veterans to help teach younger players. The problem with Wiegmann was that he could no longer play at a reasonable level. He could probably still offer us something in terms of his expertise but it would have to be in the capacity of a coach. As the excerpt from the Titan’s site shows, Mawae is still capable playing at a high level, which is the crucial distinction between him and Wiegmann.
no goats, no glory.
Always great
to hear your POV on something. To have you agree with me is even better. I don’t have a problem with one higher round T/G this year. Other than that low round guys or undrafted rookies. Some people have us getting 3 OL in the first 5 picks. Of course that’s with the “extra” picks for Marshall.☺
reply to some of your points
Re: “-Some people have us getting 3 OL in the first 5 picks. -”
I’ve been advocating 2 picks — one early and one somewhat later. And oddly, the higher pick would probably be an OT. I wouldn’t mind taking Pouncey or one of the other top OCs but I don’t think it’s that likely that we’ll be able to start whoever we draft immediately.
Targeting an OT/OG earlier seemed (or seems) to make sense given our depth at OT and our depth at OG. A single pick could address both areas. The later pick in the interior OL was a prediction based on the baserate for when successful OCs were found. I wasn’t trying to overkill the problem since it was already too late to ease them into the lineup gradually and I also guessed that we’d have to fill the position with a veteran/FA.
The point is that it’s hard to shorten the learning period even though very high picks start earlier. High picks at OC or OG are stretches and they’re also rare. High value OLs at OT are common, however. Drafting an OT made great sense if Harris wasn’t ready at the start of the season, and still made sense if we wanted him to start at OG fairly early in his career (while continuing to backup OT).
A couple OL draft picks isn’t preempting all the other positions. And despite the belief that we have to waste our ammo on the interior OG because of last year’s problems, it rarely works when teams do that. A high pick at OT fits within the value structure whereas a high pick at OC/OG usually doesn’t. No matter what the ordering of our needs, reaching doesn’t help. This is the fallacy of the draft that people never seem to learn. Immediate needs must be addressed last year, or earlier. Taking a high pick and pushing him into action, thus developing him poorly, compounds the original lack of foresight with a 2nd mistake of developing the player poorly and a 3rd mistake is that you do this to one of your highest picks.
Despite all this, I wouldn’t bet against Pouncey being able to start early, but you don’t take that step until he’s ready, so you still need another solution to the problem.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Mar 26, 2010 1:11 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait --
Has there been talk about Harris moving to G, or was that a speculative example? Hm, I’d have to problem with a high tackle or guard, but I think we’ve got some weak depth in other positions that I’d also be happy to see addressed early. I think we could use another 2nd round pick (preferably in the first half).
by BroncosBassist on Mar 26, 2010 5:07 AM MDT up reply actions
playing with the idea of moving Harris
There are a number of moves entailed by drafting an OT/OG, and one of them would/could be moving Harris to OG. Moving Harris probably isn’t desirable if he performs at his 2008 level but it’s not inconceivable that he might fit better at OG in the new blocking scheme.
The primary purpose of a ‘higher’ OT/OG pick is to protect us from Harris having a long recovery while also adding a potential starter at OG, as well as depth at OT.
There isn’t a good reason for moving an OT to OG unless there’s a problem (generally speaking) that necessitates the move. As I’ve been saying, OLs are usually tried at OT and only move when the fit is much better inside or injuries force them to take over another position. Harris isn’t poorly adjusted to RT so there isn’t a good reason to move him.
The one consideration that might change all this is health. Moving someone into his position could force a decision on whether we want to leave that player in place once Harris returns. This all quite hypothetical, however, and it’s unlikely that most OTs except the highest picks could start that early. The one exception to this limitation would be the two OTs around #11 — Trent Williams and Bulaga.
The problem with using a high pick on an OT is that you do create a crowding problem later on, but that’s exactly why the idea of moving either a draftee or Harris to OG is pertinent. And it wouldn’t necessarily have to be a 1st rounder, but part of the objective IS to draft a player capable of replacing (at least in part) Harris until he returns, so you do need to draft one high if that’s the objective. There are several things going on here — one, to make the best choice in the 1st; two, to focus on an important need. I’m comfortable with taking a player such as Saffold in the 2nd but I’m also quite comfortable with taking an OT in the 1st, and I appear to be alone in thinking that.
My feeling is that OTs are very important and that we’re vulnerable there, both in terms of injuries and depth, but also in terms of contracts. I’d prefer adding to an area when there’s an good opportunity rather than thinking in the more common mode that emphasizes filling weaknesses. I’d prefer an elite player, and adding one to the OL strikes me as adding to a weak area, even though it’s not the position most people think of.
no goats, no glory.
I agree with your thoughts on OT
I think after Harris and Clady, we’re sunk at the position. If we can get a guy to come in and take that spot until Harris returns, with an eye toward a potential starter at Guard, then I’d be happy with it. I’m not sure who we could take at 11 that would translate to Guard or RT, though. Sounds more like a second round pick or a trade back scenario, to me. Could Iupati be expected to be the RT until Harris is back on his feet? Anyone else? Those tackles would be expecting LT money if they were drafted at 11.
by BroncosBassist on Mar 26, 2010 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions
who's at #11 that might play OG
Both Bulaga and Trent Williams are capable of playing OG.
I’ve advocated for Trent Williams for various reasons. He appears to be capable of handling RT now, or soon (and eventually LT), but his abilities and somatotype also translate well to Guard.
Williams is an intense run blocker that played on the left side his senior year but will find a better fit as a right tackle at the next level. He has good size, but could still add quite a bit of bulk after a few years in the NFL. He does a good job of playing over his feet on run blocks which allows him to sustain blocks and redirect with movement. Once he smells blood he will drive opponents into the ground. As a pass blocker he shows good technique but lacks the top lateral range to stay with premier pass rushers coming off the edge.
I don’t want to place too much emphasis on drill results but his 4.88 – 40yd. bodes well for pulling and his shuttle time suggests some good short area quickness. And he’s clearly adept at run blocking, so he may be a better fit at OG. I was impressed with how smooth he looked, which may not make much sense but the pro personnel types (Mayock, etc.) agreed with my impressions and his stock was rising until lately (it’s plateaued now).
Another in the same mold is Roger Saffold. He’s similar to Williams in some respects but not as adept at run blocking. As before, I don’t see him as a finished project but my feeling is that he will develop. A pure OG such as John Jerry (who could fill in at RT but is less of a hybrid) or Jon Asomoah work for this range but wouldn’t help much at OT.
The last hybrid is Marshall Newhouse.
The NFL’s scouting service is unsparing in their criticism but don’t be misled into believing that these prospects lack potential. A better indication is where they’re projected to ‘go’ according to CBS DraftScout. You can judge their value by where they’re ranked — T.W.(#10), R.S.(#47), M.N.(#153 @ OG).
I can only reiterate old points now that I’ve suggested too many times already. Bringing in talent to on the OL doesn’t necessarily mean that we have to obey amateur created position projections. Specialization has occurred on OLs but it’s balanced by roster math that limits OLs to less than two players per position (on average). It’s arbitrarily limiting to constrain our OL choices to same-position designations under the belief that our choices are limited. Most of the creme of the OL crop is at OT and many of the OTs are eventually moved to other positions in the NFL. And we already have illustrations of this on our roster, such as Kuper. It’s incumbent upon anyone seeking to improve our OL to look at all the available talent. A large portion of the OLs are not limited to a single position and the belief that their position is pre-ordained is a misunderstanding. Curiously, Centers and Guards are often listed in a common category, yet people continue to treat the positions rigidly.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Mar 27, 2010 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good list
I realize you might not see this now, but what the heck?
I like the list of guys you mention. My biggest problem with drafting someone for this position at #11 is the amount of money sunk into a guard position. We didn’t even draft Clady at #11. I think this is bad value, personally, so I’d advocate trading back a bit and getting someone later. More and more I’m coming to the realization that I’m glad I don’t have to make these decisions for my paycheck. :)
by BroncosBassist on Mar 29, 2010 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
here's last year's salaries
I’m guilty of citing the top ten logic for picks dogmatically but I think we need to look at the logic. Firstly, it’s the top ten that ‘takes off’ in terms of wages so we’re not as hampered. I can understand why a team wouldn’t want to pay over 7 million/ per year as Jacksonville did at #8 for Monroe but 5 million is a more tolerable price and that’s what Maybin earned at #11,
Many of the potential picks suffer from a similar problem. The salary structure for high picks makes many players unacceptable because of their position even though they may be the BPA at that point. The problem is in salary structure that’s come into being. There’s a differential logic in that some positions are more justifiable in terms of paying high salaries but all upper 1st round picks are overpaid. The dilemma is that teams have to build through the draft. So what do you do with your 1st round pick if you don’t have a need at one of the few positions deemed worthy of top dollar?
I’ve gravitated towards a less dogmatic position in which positional salary criteria are a factor in the decision but it’s not an ironclad rule. It’s more a decision based on impact. Interior OLs have gained in value and impact, but my logic with the Trent Williams pick justifies his pick through his continuing value as an OT. And we can always divest ourselves of his value as an OT whereas an OG remains an OG.
Nearly every team high in the 1st would like to move back. It’s not that we don’t see the logic of, say… moving back and drafting Pouncey, it’s simply that it’s become hard to do. The one point that I’ve occasionally stressed on my draft an OT at #11 suggestion is that it’s merely a solution to the problem of who we could pick if we can’t trade back. I don’t completely endorse the idea of trading back since many believe that the best strategy is to draft an elite athlete when you have the chance, but the depth of this draft and the number of positions where we still have needs makes trading back an easy way of hedging risk and lowering costs.
no goats, no glory.
I can see your logic
I’m also a bit worried about the mental state of players who get switched from T to G, especially when that next contract comes around. But that’s probably too nuanced an issue to spend much energy on at this point. Can’t read the future.
Looking at the depth needs that the Broncos have, I’d love to have 2 late 1st round picks and 2 2nd round picks. We could probably do that with a Marshall trade and a trade back, but it’s very unlikely that both happen. And if they did, we’d likely be end up with future picks instead of a ridiculous haul of 4 picks in the first two rounds this year. I guess this is what they mean when they say Rome wasn’t built (or drafted and developed) in a day (or single season).
by BroncosBassist on Mar 30, 2010 5:10 AM MDT up reply actions
minor blemishes
Re: “mental state.” — it’s a minor point but it presumes that we won’t pay him for his role. There’s no guarantee that we would, too, but catering to the worst case argument treats a weakness in ‘his’ bargaining stance as a disincentive to ‘our’ drafting him. Looking at from the Broncos’ point of view — wouldn’t we want more for less?
Having an important position on a winning team should also be important to him. And since his initial salary is pegged by draft slot (mostly), we’re looking at a bargaining stance at renewal time. The problem I have with this argument is that his development is never guaranteed so it’s incumbent upon him to demonstrate his worth, and there’s never any guarantee which position a draftee will play. There’s a little argument as far as depriving him of an opportunity to play OT (although we want him for his OT ability), but he’s going to get the opportunity to play OG very early and that has to be an incentive as far as increasing his value, and thus his salary.
I don’t dismiss the idea that we should be concerned with our players’ happiness, especially since when it affects their salary, but going to far in that direction tends to make us forget that we want the player BECAUSE of what he can do for us. In other words, we want him to succeed, and we want him to experience as much success as possible. The question is whether asking him to play OG (many OTs are asked to switch, although usually because they’re lacking) is unreasonable. My position is that it’s wonderful opportunity. Interior OL is becoming more important because of trends so we have to sell the position on this reasoning and we have to honor that reasoning when the time comes for his renewal. The trap in thinking is to regard every bargain for the team as a corresponding financial loss for the player. Success can reward both sides whereas failure can hurt both.
Re: boatload of picks. I’d like the moon. Actually, I’d be happy with any added picks in the early rounds. The one point that needs re-emphasis is the “temporary structure problem.” We can’t get caught up in thinking that we need to do everything this year. Temporary solutions can obstruct long-term solutions. For instance, we don’t want to go overboard in attempting to fix OC if it’s only going to make it hard next year when a better solution becomes available. This is the crux of the “draft wisely or not at all” truism. It’s possible that we’ll miss/decline on Pouncey so a Walton pick (for instance) might be on tap even though it means we’ll have to wait for him to develop. There has to be a willingness by fans to accept Fry-like solutions. Overkilling a problem (wasting ammunition on a problem) doesn’t substantially increase the odds of success at ‘the’ particular problem and it robs other, often unexpected or unconsidered, problems of the resources that would improve the team. This is the virtue of a BPA strategy. We don’t know with a degree of certainty where we can best improve our team so we have to ‘spread the wealth’ on draftees at positions that aren’t true needs — (I have more on this but I’ll leave it here).
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Mar 30, 2010 6:28 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't presume to suggest we try to fix everything this year.
I just happen to see quite a number of 1st-3rd round players in this year’s draft that would be very good fits on the team. It would be nice to maximize the haul from this year with an extra early pick or two. But, that’s probably everyone’s preference, right? :)
by BroncosBassist on Mar 30, 2010 6:32 PM MDT up reply actions
In a less hyperbolic form
What I was trying to say is that this year’s solution can interfere with next year’s solution.
The tendency to ‘throw the kitchen sink at it’ exists for NFL personnel people, too, and aligns with the tendency to overvalue the draft in the short run. It’s in the area of cognitive biases although I can’t say which one, maybe discounting future events.
The lesson is that a problem may not resolve itself to our satisfaction so it’s pays to know when to give up. We can implement a ‘pretty good’ solution but putting too many resources into solving the problem robs other areas. The tendency to try to solve a problem at all costs is part of a cognitive magnification of the problem.
The BPA strategy isn’t well-understood. It’s main virtue seems to be spreading picks around so that a team doesn’t overemphasize drafting for a weakness. Drafting at positions with bubble players often works better than attempting to upgrade a weakness. Stocking up on mediocre players at a single position doesn’t help much, in what I’ve called “addressing a need isn’t solving a need.” I’m a much bigger fan of tutoring players under vets (sometimes very old ones like Mawae) and working them in slowly. The ‘baptism by fire’ method throws high draft picks into bad developmental situations and also starves other positions of quality developmental talent.
OC may be a position in which we ‘make do’ for a year with Fry & ? and try again next year. The common belief is that we MUST draft an OC this year (almost everybody believes this) ignores the alternative — to use Fry and whoever is the best waiver wire rescue. We’d then try again next year to find a UFA or draftee. The point is that we don’t need to waste value by moving to attempt to draft a Pouncey or Walton, etc., and we could try for Wisniewski or whoever we want next year. A BPA strategy does that even though it’s not justified under that rationale.
Re: 2nd & 3rd round picks. That’s the optimal strategy. It’s such a high value strategy that there have been an endless profusion of MOCKs that use it. I’d gladly convert all our picks (and Marshall and Scheffler) into picks starting in the late 2nd. The players are better in the high 2nd/early 1st in terms of creating a team but the number of quality picks goes up in the late 2nd. You can try it — add up the draft’s total point value and convert it to a swath of picks in the late 2nd. A lot of teams would try this if another team held the rights and would trade with them.
no goats, no glory.
Nicely stated ski
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
I know a trade back is hard to accomplish.
I do feel that it may be possible for a few positions because teams won’t have to give up so much to get there and they would get the player they truly want(McClain). Is Pouncey a better posibility at say… #15 in your eyes?
difficulties in trading down
I think our best chance of trading down involves Seattle’s #14, and we ‘should’ hope that a Marshall trade is agreed upon before the draft, which obviously won’t please those who want to keep him.
Trading into the mid-teens is (approximately) close to ideal.
The problem of who to draft at #11 remains, though. What we’re trying to accomplish at #11 is find a player whose end-of-contact-value doesn’t turn him into an albatross (because his demands are too high) nor lack impact value. Pouncey might be a reasonable pick at #14 (although he’s at #35 on CBS now) but we’re still searching for a reasonable pick at #11.
I won’t reiterate everything on this subject but — what we’re looking for at #11 is an elite athlete who wouldn’t be overpaid because he was drafted too high for his position. An elite player such as Eric Berry (FS) is a justifiable pick because he’s elite, but positional considerations tend to make finding an appropriate pick difficult. Pass rushers rank high on impact but the prospect of a Derrick Morgan pick has gained lukewarm response and may be a ‘lower’ need. OT has the same problem, most fans view a healthy Clady-Harris combo as the stronger area on the team. However, the positional value for OT is second to only QB, and it’s fairly safe pick (although this is arguable according to some), so the albatross effect is least likely for this position when picked early in the draft.
The value of specific players is the added variable for this decision. I don’t mind a Dan Williams pick because of his position, which is good for this area of the draft, but I do have a problem with considering him to be elite. I also don’t have a problem with the top DBs around this range, but it’s still a question as to who will be available. Ideally, there would be a playmaker of some type, which would be an impact defensive player or a ballhandler (WR, RB, etc.) or OT (because of relationship to QB). McClain may be the default pick for various reasons but we’re back to square one if he’s gone.
no goats, no glory.
So if I read into all that correctly
your stance is if we can’t trade out of the #11, the best options are;
1. Berry
2.Haden
3. top OT
4. Spiller
5. Pouncey
6. DWilliams
7. McClain or other LB
8. Morgan
9. Bryant
choices
There’s still a very wide-open field.
I’ve wondered about Earl Thomas lately because he fits into the ‘special’ category (or elite) and looks like a perfect understudy for Dawkins & Bailey.
I’ve also wondered about Kindle even though I’m lukewarm on him. OLB pass rushers are an impact position. The question is whether we need to go here early (i like a little later).
There’s a lot of players who should appeal to us but not at #11. I’ve always liked Graham but it’s too early. I like Kyle Wilson and Jared Odrick but not this high. There’s others, too.
Even though #11 isn’t a bad spot for finding a worthy draftee, it’s a good draft to be picking at any spot, particularly the last half of the 1st and to a lesser degree in the 2nd. The trade value chart poorly describes the value structure in this draft.
It should be noted that the expired CBA was abandoned for a reason. I’m not taking the owners’ side since it’s beyond the scope of any party to control the run away salaries. A rookie salary cap with verification of profits to the players would be a good solution to the problem.
no goats, no glory.
No need to feel all alone,
I’m with ya buddy. Trent Williams made it to #11 in our mock. I would be thrilled if this happened and we took him there. A true LT. Played RT last year after Phil Loadholt left. This would be perfect.
Glad to learn these things about Fry...
Especially the good smarts needed to read opposing defenses, and that he rarely made the wrong call.
Thanks for the great article!
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
excellent piece
You sir, are a very good writer. Thank you and those who help you.
by Orange and Blue on Mar 26, 2010 9:09 AM MDT reply actions
Great piece of work Doc, Rec'd
"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."
I hope Fry doesn't get lossed in the shuffle
He sounds very promising. I’m impressed with his size and his play calling the most. I certainly subscribe to the school of thought that these new OC’s need to be more dominant to counter the emergence of the massive NT’s.
I’m wondering why, after he’s already been stolen before, didn’t his new teams better protect him by making a spot on the roster.
If each team carries about four backup linemen, why couldn’t the Rams, Browns, or Panthers find a place on the roster to protect him? You’d think his versatility as a OG/OC would make it easier to find him a backup role at least. One would think that after he’s already been stolen before, they would sort of see it coming. Were all of their rosters that crowded with better backup talent? Also, do you know if any of his prior teams made a move to grab him back?
I rec’d it last time, or I’d rec it again! I’m definately intrigued by this prospect. I still think we need insurance, but I love his size and projections coming out of college.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
This was an excellent discussion people
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
I agree, KK. Excellent discussion.
There is a caveat if Fry starts at OC and goes down – and the replacement is not as skilled in the shotgun snap. We can go back to the QB going undercenter for every play. It is relatively easy for the center to snap the ball into the QB’s hands. The biggest issue there is timing – so the QB does not back out too quickly. Instead of being concerned of a shotgun snap sailing or being off target and causing a turnover, the QB going undercenter – using a 3 or 5 step drop and pitches to the RBs. It would change our offense but would be better than a turnover. We should be able to run most of a game that way anyway.
Awesome article, Doc. Rec’d! I am keeping this for future reference. Thanks.
I was getting DSL installed for highspeed internet yesterday so I couldn’t check MHR. I see what I missed. Had a few withdrawals.
In addition to my previous post,
I still advocate a 2nd skilled center. He needs to be adept at the shotgun snap and a quick recovery into his blocking assignment. The 2nd requirement is not as easyas it sounds. Maybe later in this draft. Olson would be a good candidate.
I would agree on being vulnerable at OT even with a lot of guys who can play there on our roster.
Maybe a 1st rounder on an OT? Or 2nd? Need to make sure we are covered if Harrris is not recovered sufficiently.
I tried to have the handle Blackknight but couldn't as someone else was using.
Then I thought that since I live in Montana, if I had the “t” there, people would think that I could actually ride a horse. Just a silly justification. Thanks, Digger.
I realize that few will look at this comment in the future, but...
I just checked the CBS Sports rankings for 2007, the year that Dustin Fry was drafted. He was ranked as player #83 overall and the 3rd center in ranking. I am amazed how good the report is – Doc has put much of it in his post. If this guy is as the scouting report says, he is probably just below Pouncey in the ratings. Someone mentioned – sorry I don’t remember who – said that he would be equal to Walton, Tennant or Olson.
If this is the case, we simply need another person for depth who can do the shotgun snap and block effectively immediately after.
You never know who's watching ;-)
I read an article of styg’s recently and he made the point is it’s common to find centers out of players who were at other positions for some years. The fact that Fry has some training and was listed as high as he was intrigues me.
It all starts with the lines
awesome, thoughtful post
The media has enjoyed themselves with the “the Broncos can’t possibly enter the season with Dustin Fry at center” line. It did some research and came to the same conclusion. Why not? Fry seems to fit exactly what McD would like to do. The fact that Fry was a state champion in wrestling cannot be overlooked. The toughness, handfighting skills and balance that come from participating in that sport are a huge advantage.
Peace Begins with me,
Dave

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