A Stop Watch, A Scale, and a Prayer - Drafting a Running Back
Give me a running back with the power of Walter Payton and the speed of Eric Dickerson. Now you've got a guy who can take you to the promised land. But, unfortunately, a guy like that only comes along every 50 years. And we've already seen in our lifetime a guy named Bo Jackson.
--T J Johnson
In the last several weeks, I've become MHR's version of a big-bad-bangin'-cold bucket of water. I've compared the draft to a crapshoot. I've compared it to blackjack. I've even railed against drafting the most talented wide receiver this year, Dez Bryant, because he was late for practice, games, and most recently, forgot his cleats for his pro day. It's gotten to the point where I am sure that Jeremy Bolander, E.J. Ruiz, and Sayre Bedinger would rather me retreat to my statistical cave and churn out a few more articles on Expected Points Value. In NFL fandom (not to be confused with fandago, hombre), the NFL draft has become second fiddle to only Tom Brady's girlfriend/fiancé/wife and the annual Oakland Raiders coaching change. Better to leave the draft analysis to the professionals...and Mel Kiper, Jr.
It in in this spirit, I offer up a little olive branch to all those draft geeks in MHR-land. I thought I would use statistics for good rather than evil. In fact, by the time you finish reading this article, your significant other will be thanking me. I'll have saved you a good deal of time--perhaps enough time to clean out the garage this weekend. That's becase I'm going to tell you how to draft a running back without ever again using Youtube, Google, Todd McShay, or your own brain. So, my fellow scarecrows, follow me after the jump and leave your brains at the door. Raiders Fans, ignore that last sentence. For you, it's redundant.
Al Davis: Super Genius?
Put down your tape and shred your scouting reports right now!
Al Davis was right! 40-yard dash times do matter--well, sort of. And only for running backs.
Bill Barnwell, with the Football Outsiders, came to a rather straightforward, logical, and obvious conclusion in the last several years. For a running back, speed alone isn't sufficient for NFL success. Usually, speed comes at the price of power. And it doesn't take but a few hits from a guy like Ray Lewis to send a speed guy to the locker room for smelling salts. This is why 40-yard draft times alone don't tell the whole story.
And neither is power sufficient. Power guys might be good for a 4th-and-1, but they'll never have the complete skills to be an every-down running back. And the most powerful guys usually end up playing tight end, fullback, or linebacker. This is also why a player's weight doesn't tell the whole story.
For these reasons, Barnwell's cute and cuddly equation, known as the Weight-Adjusted 40-Yard-Dash Score (WA40), has particular appeal. It simply combines speed and power into a nice little mathematical package in order to rank running backs entering the draft:
200 x Weight in Pounds / (40-Yard-Dash Time at Combine)4
For those who would rather have a narrative version, we take the player's weight, multiply it by 200 and then divide this number by their 40-yard-dash time taken to the 4th power. And you told your high school mathematics teacher you'd never use this stuff. Little did your teacher know you would turn into a lazy, good-for-nothing draft lunatic.
The WA40, according to Barnwell, has a moderately-strong correlation (.45) to a running back's future carries and yards in the NFL (using data from 1999-2008). As such, I'd consider it a decent-to-average benchmark for evaluating running backs. So for those of us who aren't a draft whiz (Matt Millen or our friend Al Davis), it can be useful indeed.
The average NFL running back scores 100 on the WA40. The highest WA40 score, according to Barnwell, was Brandon Jacobs, who ran a 4.56 40-yard dash and weighed in at 267 pounds. His WA40 score was 123.50. The lowest score was Darrin Davis, who ran a 4.82 40-yard and weighed in at 189 pounds. His score was 70.03.
With this in mind, we can apply this equation to previous drafts and to this year's draft as well to spot reaches, sleepers, and, yes, debate the Knowshon Moreno pick.
The WA40 Time Machine
I decided to look at the Top-5 Running Backs drafted from 2008 to 2009 as a way to demonstrate Barnwell's equation. Let's look at 2008 first:
| 2008 | Pick | 40-Time | Weight | WA40 Score |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Darren McFadden | 4 | 4.33 | 211 | 120.05 |
| Jonathan Stewart | 13 | 4.48 | 235 | 116.68 |
| Felix Jones | 22 | 4.47 | 207 | 103.70 |
| Rashard Mendenhall | 23 | 4.45 | 225 | 114.76 |
| Chris Johnson | 24 | 4.24 | 197 | 121.91 |
The first thing one notices is the strength of the WA40 scores of this draft class, in particular Darren McFadden and Chris Johnson. In fact, when I looked at all of the drafts going back to 2000, this was one of the strongest Top-5 classes. Perhaps this explains also why all 5 of these running backs were off the board by pick 24. Going into the draft, one of the big questions was whether or not Chris Johnson was durable enough to stand up to an NFL- regular-season pounding. Several years later, we know the answer. However, looking back and using Barnwell's equation, one might have been tempted to rank him ahead of Darren McFadden, who the Raiders nabbed at pick 4.
Here are the scores from 2009:
| 2009 | Pick | 40-Time | Weight | WA40 Score |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Knowshown Moreno | 12 | 4.5 | 217 | 105.84 |
| Donald Brown | 27 | 4.51 | 210 | 101.52 |
| Chris Wells | 31 | 4.59 | 237 | 106.79 |
| LeSean McCoy | 53 | 4.52 | 198 | 94.87 |
| Shonn Greene | 65 | 4.63 | 227 | 98.79 |
In contract to 2008, what stands out here is the weakness of the class with respect to their WA40 scores. The highest scorer from this list, Chris Wells, would have finished 4th in 2008's class. The same with Knowshon Moreno. According to the WA40 equation, LeSeaon McCoy and Shonn Greene weren't even average NFL running backs.
Does this mean I'm ready to blast Josh McDaniels for selecting Moreno with the 12th pick? Not really. The scores of both Wells and Moreno were very close, and using game tape (what a ghastly and barbaric concept), one easily saw Moreno's superior vision. However, I'm certainly not drinking the Kool-Aid. If we accept the premise that Barnwell's equation has any value, Moreno's a slightly-above average NFL running back. The good news is that in Josh McDaniels' offense, you don't have to be Chris Johnson. Pass blocking and pass catching are also at a premium. And Moreno does both very well.
But was he worth the 12th pick in the draft? Inquiring minds want to know.
An Orange Blast From the Past
Before we move on tot the draft class of 2010 (Spiller, Spiller, he's our man, if he can't do it, no one can), I wouldn't be doing MHR readers justice if I didn't bring up some of the historical Denver running backs and their WA40 scores:
| Running Back | Year Drafted/Signed | 4 0-Time | Weight | WA40 Score |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Peyton Hillis | 2008 | 4.66 | 240 | 101.79 |
| LaMont Jordan | 2001 | 4.57 | 234 | 107.30 |
| Correll Buckhalter | 2001 | 4.53 | 226 | 107.34 |
| JJ Arrington | 2005 | 4.4 | 214 | 114.19 |
| Tatum Bell | 2004 | 4.37 | 212 | 116.26 |
| Selvin Young | 2007 | 4.58 | 207 | 94.09 |
| Mike Bell | 2006 | 4.6 | 221 | 98.72 |
| Ryan Torain | 2008 | 4.64 | 222 | 95.79 |
| Travis Henry | 2001 | 4.61 | 223 | 98.75 |
| Reuben Droughs | 2000 | 4.66 | 215 | 91.19 |
| Clinton Portis | 2002 | 4.42 | 204 | 106.90 |
| Quentin Griffin | 2003 | 4.48 | 195 | 96.82 |
| Olandis Gary | 1999 | 4.71 | 216 | 87.78 |
| Mike Anderson | 2000 | 4.69 | 235 | 97.14 |
| Terrell Davis | 1995 | 4.72 | 210 | 84.62 |
This list alone is fascinating, but a few things stand out. First, Barnwell's equation would suggest that Peyton Hillis was drafted in the late rounds for a legitimate reason. Second, Denver signed J.J. Arrington again for all of that potential. Third, Tatum Bell never really lived up to his potential (as a cell-phone sales guy, I've no stats). Fourth, I never bought into the Travis Henry hype and now I have some numbers to confirm my intuition. Lastly, and a major warning to all of us stats geeks to never go to battle with stats alone, Terrell Davis had the lowest score on this list. Vision, scheme, work ethic, Howard Griffith, and Gary Zimmerman can take the WA40 Score and they can beat it all to hell. Let us always remember, football is an 11-player game.
I estimated Floyd Little's WA40 score at 259.89 (solve the equation if you'd like, Kentucky Bronco), but because they didn't keep official 40-yard-dash times in 1967, it's my own unofficial score. The crazy thing is, Floyd ran that 40-yard dash last week.
And Now, What You've Been Waiting For
After that walk down memory lane, let's look ahead to 2010. Neither I, nor several hundred thousand of my Broncos friends, expect Denver to select a running back with their 1st-round-pick this year, but it's highly likely they'll take someone in the later rounds.
So how does the 2010 draft class score? Let's take a look at the top 15 running backs as ranked by Walter Football:
| Player | College | 40-Yard-Dash Time | Weight | WA40 Score |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| CJ Spiller | Clemson | 4.27 | 196 | 117.92 |
| Ryan Mathews | Fresno State | 4.41 | 217 | 114.75 |
| Jahvid Best | California | 4.35 | 199 | 111.15 |
| Dexter McCluster | Ole Miss | 4.55 | 172 | 80.26 |
| Ben Tate | Auburn | 4.45 | 219 | 111.70 |
| Jonathan Dwyer | Georgia Tech | 4.59 | 229 | 103.18 |
| Joe McKnight | USC | 4.42 | 198 | 103.75 |
| Montario Hardesty | Tennessee | 4.49 | 225 | 110.72 |
| Toby Gerhart | Stanford | 4.53 | 231 | 109.71 |
| Anthony Dixon | Miss. State | 4.65 | 233 | 99.67 |
| LeGarrette Blount | Oregon | 4.62 | 238 | 104.48 |
| James Starks | Buffalo | 4.48 | 214 | 106.25 |
| Deji Karim | Southern Illinois | 4.37 | 210 | 115.17 |
| Andre Anderson | Tulane | 4.5 | 212 | 103.40 |
| Joique Bell | Wayne State | 4.65 | 217 | 92.83 |
No surprise who's at the top of this list. C.J. Spiller, both on tape and with respect to the WA40 equation, tops this list. But the equation would suggest that Dexter McCluster may not be as good as advertised (did he really run that bad at the combine?), and if I'm the Broncos and I'm sitting in the 4th or 5th round, I don't hesitate grabbing Deji Karim. His WA40 score is 2nd only to Spiller's.
So what do you think? Are you buying Barnwell's equation? Can statistics prove wiser than John Clayton? Feel free to run the equation on other backs, both present and past. My favorite, and to whom I reference in my initial quote, is Bo Jackson. It's been said that he once ran the 40-yard dash at 4.12. Now, this is before they used electronic stop watches. But at 227 lbs., even a 4.3 would have been absolutely deadly, resulting in an earth-shattering WA40 Score of almost 133.
For once, Al Davis got something right. Just ask Brian Bosworth.
113 comments
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10 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I'm going to go with yes
they can be smarter than John Clayton. Wasn’t there also something from FO about four groups of weight and speed that guys had to fit in to be successful? Or was that for Wr?
Fill in the blank
There’s not many answers here that would cause this statement to become false :~)
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
huh, I guess comments don't like underscores
Fill in the blank
[blank] is smarter than John Clayton.
There’s not many answers here that would cause this statement to become false :~)
There we go :~)
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Jamie Dukes.
Done.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 31, 2010 10:35 AM MDT up reply actions
oh oh oh pick me, again. (raised hand)
Al Davis on draft day.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 31, 2010 10:35 AM MDT up reply actions
I think that's it.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 31, 2010 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions
I can't think of any more either :~)
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Not sure, FIE, I will have to look. But stats are ALWAYS smarter than John Clayton.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
0.45 is a terrible correlation. i wouldn’t put much stock in this.
by black_knight101 on Mar 31, 2010 9:43 AM MDT reply actions
It’s not mind-blowing, but you can’t disregard it, either. It’s about wat one would expect for a measure that predicts some amount of success in a team game with lots of variables.
Let’s put it another way. How strong a predictor of success could any single draft metric be? Considering that 50% of first-round picks don’t work out, this seems like as good a source of intel as any. I’d be floored to see something over .5. And then I’d have my team focus on that position.
exactly...moderate correlation.
I wouldn’t discount the tool, however, black knight, just another option to throw on the table after you’ve looked at tape. Or perhaps before.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
About the Moreno pick....
It seems increasingly clear that last year’s draft was a weak overall draft, just as this year’s is awesome. The two are related, of course, lots of kids stayed in school to get drafted in 2010, and lots more left early to get drafted in 2010. It’s essentially a draft that’s skimming from the two surrounding drafts. crazy. I would have liked to have seen more from Moreno and Ayers last year. But I look around and, well, who else would I rather have? The horses simply aren’t there.
Crazy thing: I’m starting to become sympathetic to the Al Davis of old. He was radical in many ways (on the field and off) and highly effective for an absurdly long amount of time. Plus, praising what he used to be is a good way to turn the screws on Raiders fans. I’m going to write the pro-Al article one of these months.
40 times last year may have been flawed
all around 40 times were down last year, at every position. Player prodays, while expected to be better, were MUCH better, and thus many suspect that there were issues with the electronic timing setup at the combine. 2009 draftees can be compared to eachotehr, but I would caution against comparing them to other years.
In fact, that would probably be a good overall philosophy for all the classes 40 times. Chris Johnson, notably, ran his record time in the 40 in the first year that electronic timing was introduced, and many players approached his benchmark. 2009 may be an example of attempting to adjust the setup, only to have the opposite extreme result.
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 31, 2010 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good point
Surfaces can cause differences in 40 times from year to year as well. Some surfaces are just faster than others.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Good note, JB, as to why stats should always be used in conjunction with beer and
someone else’s money.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
by TJ Johnson on Mar 31, 2010 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Chibronx
I was thinking of doing the same sort of article, but I’m glad someone is on to that. One could make an argument (limited) that the Denver Broncos wouldn’t be here if not for Big Al.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Very limited...
limited like the cross country efficiency of an electric Lotus Elise! HAHAHA
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
McD missed a lot fo good ones....
Cushing, Mathews and Maualuga all had sensational years as rookies for their teams. They were drafted like 15, 24 and the second round for Maualuga. Orakpo, who McD said would be cut if he drafted him, had a good year for Washington and was the 13th pick. Considering Tbuck strongly outperformed Moreno, picking a couple of those defenders might have helped the Broncos out far more than Moreno and Ayers.
It is not time to give up on Moreno. Last year he showed almost no athleticism, or very average for NFL running backs, I assume he was over thinking things. Lets hope so. It is not just Ayers who was disappointing, what about phonze that was basically our 15th pick in the draft this year. All of these guys need to start producing or McD has wasted 3 first round draft choices as badly as the Shan misses everyone likes to talk about on this site.
by Keyworthpunch on Apr 1, 2010 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions
Great job
I am curious what Adrain Peterson’s was and someone like LT, would be an interesting comparison
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Thanks, B-Man, just trying to bring more information to MHR brethren...it might not always
be 100% truth, but it will make you think.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
I would buy it until you look at Terrell Davis
at 86. This would mean we would’ve never drafted him.
"Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak "
Ted Nugent
Well, it's just a stat
I think the thing that the stats don’t really show is game speed and vision, Terrell definately had a much faster game speed than the 40 time and his vision was excellent, two things you can’t really judge based on a 40 yard dash.
What confounds me is that I would of made the same arguement for Moreno last year before the season started, but his play showed he really lacks good game speed and his vision seems average at best.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
It’s hard to use vision and game speed when you’re being speared in the backfield by 300 pounders. Fix the line, Moreno will be fine.
I think I might make that my sig line, actually. “Fix the line, Moreno will be fine.” Me likey…
by aLuffabo on Mar 31, 2010 9:56 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
That would be a great sig line
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Good sig line, my man. Take it!!!! Take it!!!!
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
fix the line and most RB's in the NFL would be fine! Orakpo was the pick there last year!
I was REALLY hating on McX for drafting a non-athletic RB there. In my mind this will always be a foolish pick even when he begins to produce more this year. RB’s are a dime a dozen might be stretching it but it’s close! Look at Mike Bell! He BETTER learn to pass block this year or he’ll really look like the wrong pick for us at that time!
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 31, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Buckhalter seemed to do fine behind that line
While I don’t disagree the O-line had it’s share of problems, you can look at Buckhaleters average per attempt and Moreno’’s and see that Moreno lacks that vision and game speed.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I would argue that if Buck was the featured back
his YPC would have been much closer to what Moreno’s ended up at.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Agreed.
If you go back and look at the NYG game, Buck had 20 carries for 51 yards, which translates to 2.6 yards per carry.
Buck had good numbers because he was brought in for certain situations, which favored his running style. However, using him as a feature back doesn’t translate to better production.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 31, 2010 4:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't quite get this logic
Somehow the O-line blocked differently for Moreno versus Buckhalter? Or we ran plays that we knew would be successful for Buckhalter and ran plays we knew wouldn’t work for Moreno? I also believe the stat you have there was when Buck was coming back from an injury, so I am not sure how apt it is for a idea he would struggle as a feature back.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Not necessarily.
I think of Buckhalter like I think of ice cream. It’s super delicious, at first. It’s good for a cone or two, if it’s one of those days. However, if you keep eating and eating ice cream, you’re going to get a stomach ache. That’s not very satisfying. The key is to find the right amount of ice cream that will not only satisfy your craving, but also leave you free of a stomach ache.
I love Buckhalter. I really do. He’s a great back. However, he’s not a workhorse. He can’t be relied upon to carry the load. Here’s a stat I found on NFL.com
Attempts Att Yds Avg Lng TD 1st
Attempts 1-Through-10 104 603 5.8 45 1 27
Attempts 11-Through-20 16 39 2.4 10 0 2
The stats speak for themselves. That’s 1 first down every four carries during attempts 1 through 10 and 1 first down every 8 carries for attempts 11 through 20. That’s twice as much. The yards per carry also went down by over 50%. That’s a significant decrease in production as his carries increase.
The offensive line didn’t block differently. The plays we ran weren’t any differently. It’s just a great coaching observation. Maybe he picked up on that from practice. Whatever it was, McD found a range of carries that work for Buckhalter and kept him within that range to maximize his efficiency. McD found Buckhalter’s “ice cream” range.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 31, 2010 5:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Which still shows it was not necessarily the o-lines fault
You make a strong case that Tbuck can not be a 20 carry a game back in the NFL. You make a great case he has diminishing returns, what you have not shown is how the o-line is responsible for his drop off. What this does not absolve is Moreno for being a big part of why our running game was sub-par last year.
by Keyworthpunch on Apr 1, 2010 8:58 AM MDT up reply actions
See c_style's comment below.
It’s a multivariable problem. Buck didn’t get as many carries and was more efficient with those few carries. Also, he was brought in for situations that weren’t obvious running situations, like c_style alluded to. Throw in that the offensive line deteriorated down the stretch and there you go. It’s not as cut and dry as saying “well, Buck had a better ypc, so he should have been the obvious choice to get more carries.”
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Apr 1, 2010 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions
Football is a game a situations
How many times was Buck’s # called on 3rd and short? Not many. Moreno had many more carries in obvious running situations. When the defense is 98% sure you are going to run, it’s a lot harder to pick up good chunks of yards on those carries.
Meanwhile Buck got a lot of carries in situations where the D was unsure of what the offense was going to do. He even broke some long runs on down/distance that are considered passing situations. I’m not saying Moreno only got called upon when the D knew we would run, just that overall Moreno had many more carries where that was the case compared to Buck.
Buck had way less carries overall and managed to break a couple for long runs. That really helped his YPC ( long runs and low amount of carries = good YPC).
I also recall off the top of my head at least 2 long runs by Moreno that were called back due to holding. Combine that with all of those carries by Moreno on 3rd & short where our interior line got demolished and you start to see why Moreno’s YPC was a full yard less than Buck’s.
Give Buck the amount of carries as Moreno including all those carries in obvious running situations and his YPC would be much closer to Moreno’s. They had the same O Line sure, but they were used in different situations in the game.
If we fix our interior O Line Moreno’s YPC would rise from 3.9 to around 5 IMO. Especially if his long runs don’t get called back for holding.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
and Moreno was a rookie... he'll be fine. And yes he'll do much better behind an improved line...
I still prefer the FA Bucky vs the low 1st Moreno… I like them both, I’m simply talking the value of the pick and it’s getting blown out of proportion.
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 31, 2010 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Funny how Tbuck greatly outperformed Moreno
behind that terrible O-line. Don’t buy the McD spin, Moreno was every bit as responsible for the poor rushing performance as the line. Oh and while were at it, how about a little blame going to McD who came in an insisted a system and players specifically suited for a system was not what he wanted so he BLEW IT UP. Changing the blocking schemes when we did not have the players suited for the new scheme was STUPID. Lets not forget McD’s creative play calling in short yardage situations that called for a pedestrian back (Moreno was all of that last year) plunging into the line behind an o-line ill-equipped for the scheme being run and often into the very teeth of a defense. There were times the line actually maned up and blocked people and, because the defense had more people at the point of attack due to plunging into their strength, Moreno was left one-on-one in the hole with a safety who was unblocked because of a numbers game (McD choosing to attack the defense at the point where they had more people than we had blockers) and Moreno got jacked-up. Moreno did not finally start showing any sign of promise in short yardage until the last game.
by Keyworthpunch on Apr 1, 2010 8:51 AM MDT up reply actions
Take into account
However, that shanny’s systems produced gold from copper…..or aluminum even….when it comes to RB’s. I mean during the shanny era did we have any RB or RB duo that simply stunk worse than last months garbage? I think shanny would have STILL taken TD because of when and how. Wasn’t he a 6th rounder? (maybe I’m confusing him with someone else and if so I should be tarred and feathered.) I think Shanny would have cared very little for equations like this, in fact maybe this would have MADE him choose TD. low score equals late pick with low money initially….until he wins you two SB’s that is….(yes of course I mean with the help of the Great #7)
Which reminds me…in finance we learn about the rule of seven….every ten years at 7% your investment roughly doubles…..well….The Bronco rule of 7 is that every 10 years, or portion thereof with #7 at the helm you double the amount of Superbowls you are going to win with the initial factor beginning at 1!!!! maybe someoneday I’ll write the investment rules and productivity of the Broncos HAHAHA or someone else is welcome to.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
TD was a 6th rounder, and Shanahan didn't find him
Bobby Turner did. He was looking at film from a classmate of TD’s and told Shanny, “You need to see this guy and we need to draft him!” As the draft wore on, Shanny finally used a pick in the 6th round on TD, which actually says a lot about how much credibility Mike was putting into Turner’s strong recommendation (very little).
It’s always funny to read that Mike S. ‘found’ TD, when the fact is that he wasn’t much interested in drafting him, even with Turners rec. Like any good boss, though, Mike was just fine taking the credit ;-)
It all starts with the lines
Shanny gets no credit even for TD huh?
I’d say it’s safe to say 90% of all picks are ‘found’ by scouts and assistants. Hell, who found Turner? Mike was just fine taking the credit? Where did he do that? BTW, he DID draft him right?
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 31, 2010 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Emmett, I love you but....
My statement had nothing to do with WHO found TD hahahah, I was simply referring to the fact that even though he was an 80 on the WA40 that it didn’t matter what the score would have been for a RB in the Shanny ERA system.
But in fact my statement was predicated on the fact that if shanny DID have that formula, it still would have put TD at a 6th, 7th rd or undrafted FA even…
So given his WA40….he actually was drafted accordingly and I find that hilarious. the fact that he ended up being our 2nd best RB of all time….well…..thats just icing on the cake.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Is it OK if I just 'like' you too?
lol – I wasn’t referring to your comment, really – just making a note about the TD story. It seems to have been taken the wrong way – my apologies.
It all starts with the lines
its all good,
I just noticed that all the spinoff conversation went to Shanny finding him vs someone else and I wasn’t going on about that at all just the Mwhatever 40 numbers.
and yes I’m ok being just liked HAHA
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Seems about right, to me.
I would argue one thing, though. What if you have a guy who’s not very heavy, but runs with power? I’d be curious to see if there is a direct correlation to weight and power. Even though I’m about to use a non RB as an example, it’s the purest example I could find. Terrence Cody. He’s a monster on the scale, but is he the strongest or most powerful DT?
For a RB example, I think of a true RB, such as Adrian Peterson. There are bigger RBs than him, but his power is outstanding, while still having an excellent burst of speed. How would a guy like that fall into these stats?
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
Great article. I believe you are already well aware of my lack of affinity for statistics, TJ, so I’ll just let TD’s low number do the talking for me. :)
And, that “earth-shattering” Bo Jackson score wouldn’t surprise me in the least. I’ve only been able to see the man play on tape, never in a live contest. But what an absolute freak of nature athlete. I’m constantly bummed out that his career was cut short because of a hip. He, and sports fans as a whole, were robbed of one of the best and most electrifying athletes ever in his prime. Sad stuff.
I’m sure everyone has seen the same documentary clip I did of Bo Jackson. They say he “sounded” different than other guys when he ran by you if you were standing on the sidelines. Kind of like you can hear when a baseball is thrown extremely hard. His combination of size and speed sounded completely different than your average NFL player, how bad ass is that?
Bo was bad A
I remember his first run as a rookie. He brokle it for a long TD and he kept running right through the endzone and into lockroom tunnel.
I also remember him breaking bats on his knee and even his head when he would strike out in MLB. He was an unbelievable athlete.
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
Bo Jackson
Single greatest athlete to ever walk the planet. Guy could have been All-Pro in both the NFL and MLB for a decade if he wanted.
Jim Brown is a close 2nd, but Bo Jackson. Insane.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
by TJ Johnson on Mar 31, 2010 11:33 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Taylor Mays unofficial 40 time...
yielded a WA40 of 137.08. If you watch the overlay video, he clearly ran faster than the official 4.43. Where are these athletes going to be in 15 or 20 years?
by legendarywalton on Mar 31, 2010 9:57 AM MDT reply actions
We know what Al will do. He's already a Raider!
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Adrian Peterson & Bo Jackson
AP’s WA40 number using his combine time was 118.
I saw Bo Jackson play baseball for the KC Royals. Fastest stolen base I ever saw run. He also picked up the ball near the wall in left field. Heaved it all the way to the plate to stop a runner. A huge throw.
Came away from the game saying. That is an athlete
Winning is not everything but it sure feels like it sometimes
Very nice job
For a Slacker!
I like it. This would make a good starting point to draft by IMO.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Good Thought, Kap
And that’s exactly what it should do. It’s not the end-all-to-be-all. It’s a tool, somewhat useful, in my view.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
According to this link
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfn/sfndrb.htm
He ran a 4.40 at 227 for a WA40 of 121.13.
Rob = Bad MF
Thanks man.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Barnwell, has a moderately-strong correlation (.45) to a running back’s future carries and yards in the NFL
Is this correlation for yearly stats (avg per year) or total career stats?
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
od, I believe it was a yearly stat, my friend
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Great Chart TJ thanks!
I wonder how Earl Campbell and Eric Dickerson would rank?
I could have been a Rhodes Scholar, except for my grades.
-- Duffy Daugherty
Would be interesting, eh? It's too bad we couldn't get a 40 on those guys.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
I couldn't find a 40 time on Dickerson
But Wiki says Campbell ran a 4.5. This source claims 4.6.
The 4.5 comes out to 119.00
4.6 is 108.99
Take your pick, Campbell would run over people like a Bowling ball scatters pins!
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Lots of truth
But doesn’t take into account intangibles, like in the account of T. Davis. But it is a good measurement of weight to speed ratio.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
Couldn't agree more, mwd, another tool for the chest
TD was drafted in the 6th round for a reason. But thank god he was overlooked.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Karim
Might be a good pickup. He stood out to me yesterday as I was looking at RB’s.
Derek Anderson is just as much a probowl quarterback as Jay Cutler
Him mand Gerhart
Are possibly 2 of the best RB’s to pick up in the second round.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
by Topher Doll on Mar 31, 2010 12:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Barry Sanders scores around 111.3
I was curious to see how he fit into this evaluation. He was such an amazing physical specimen with unbelievable intangibles, I expected him to be more of an outlier.
I wonder how you could measure agility — the number of DLs and LBs that went to the ground with their arms outstretched and ankles broken? ; )
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
by broncosmontana on Mar 31, 2010 12:25 PM MDT reply actions
another fun look
John Elway comes in at 110 while Peyton Manning comes in at 94.
In your face, BBS! LOL
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
by broncosmontana on Mar 31, 2010 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahahaha, very nice. +1
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Mar 31, 2010 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Just 1 of a multitude of reasons
why Elway is the Greatest Ever, not Manning :~)
Great spirits have often encountered violent opposition from weak minds. - Albert Einstein
First of all...Great post as usual TJ!
We may recognize from the list of 2010 hopefuls that Dwyer, Hardesty, Gerhart, Blount and Dixon are power backs and not a fit for the McD/McCoy system. Out of those 5, I believe Blount would be the better fit for us as a 230+ back. Watching him play clearly showed a vision for the open lanes and the power to get through them. He is a very strong runner, but I am not sure about his receiving abilities and will have to investigate further. Ben Tate and Deji Karim may be good fits later and since I haven’t researched either one of them, it would be premature thinking that we take them or else the sky is falling.
Who would of ever thought in their right mind that Terrel Davis was going to be the back he was? Did Shanahan get lucky with the pick or was there something that showed him the difference? `The stats you bring are a clear indication of what they should be doing if the other instincts are there, like vision, cut back abilities and balance. They all play a part in the equation of who we select. McD is no fool and with the extra 4-5 months to prepare, we should see the envelop open with $$$ signs flowing out of it in terms of elite prospects with great value for the club. If we don’t then we start to worry of where his priorities are. And I’m not talking about just dishing out large amounts of money to unknowns. What I want to see is, the best bang for the buck…
See comment above, bfree
Shanny never found TD. Bobby Turner did, and Shanny almost didn’t draft him.
It all starts with the lines
Oh TJ...
You’re always welcome to rain on our parade! This is just another insightful, thought-provoking piece, my friend, so keep up the good work!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Besides Bo Jackson the best I've seen
One that comes to mind would be Marcus Dupree before his injuries. I wasn’t able to find a combine time but I see that he played at 240 pounds with a stated 4.4 speed. That translates to a score of 128.06. He was basically in the same level as Bo Jackson although he never quite had the same hype due to his injuries and probably immaturity. He had the skills to be the best rb ever and the occasional flashes of brillance showed that.
Jim, I had forgotten about Dupree. You are right. Amazing. Simply amazing.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Hmmm....shouldn't TD "be" the benchmark for this?
TD’s career numbers were somewhat average…he just happened to tear it up for four years…lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Wow, Only 3 Recs So Far?
Whiskey Tango Foxtrot. We have all started taking the Dude for granted. That shouldn’t be the case.
This is a really cool statistic, TJ!
Looks like Deji Karem could be the steal of the draft at rounds!
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
yes sorry, rec'd here too. Any help in ranking these guys that proves helpful at all truly is a useful tool.
I wonder though, how do guys like Bettis or Brandon Jacobs work on this scale?
I'd be a little more impressed
if the formula wasn’t so goofy. Warning, boring statsy stuff to follow.
I mean is there any explanation for why weight times 200 divided by 40-time to the fourth is a good way to judge an athletes size and speed in general? Usually you want to go into a stats project with some real world hypothesis, like I think for every 10 pounds heavier a running back is, I think he can be a half second slower and still produce as well. But when you start taking things to the fourth power, I’m not sure how you get back to the real world. I would think that you would run both 40-time and weight into a multivariable regression with whatever end result target they are looking at and get some numbers related to how much the times and weight contribute to that and how significant they are, and then see how good the correlation is that way. But maybe they have already done that and this is some manipulation to back that data out into a more digestable package. Still, that to the fourth power thing gets me. Just seems so totally random. Like, most of these guys weigh about 200 pounds, so the formula is really close to weight squared divided by 40-time to the fourth. Why didn’t they use that?
The whole things just kind of seems like they just plugged in random stuff until they got the highest correlation they could, which could lead to long term problems with this model as it will then be inherently limited by the data available at the time it was created and not be able to adjust as more data becomes available.
using wgt as a calculation for power???
this is kinda silly….no really silly. It may be the best measurement though b/c power is an intangible thing……..how many hills at what vertical did Payton use to run?? Can we use that as a new test at the combine to determine power? Lets not get some of these Execs thinking of new nonsense to add at the combine though.
I was interested to see Gerhart’s WA40. I think he could be very special. Its funny though, I think if he is special (its a crapshoot), then it will be b/c of his intel and work ethic on top of what he already has (but, that is also probably a result in great deal to his intel and work). I hope we draft him……he should be tops out in the WA40 b/c his power is pretty remarkable.

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