Visions of Sugar Plums - The Value of Brandon Marshall
Christmas comes only once a year. And Pete Carroll isn't donning a santa costume.
While we all might have believed last week that Brandon Marshall was worth a 1st and a 3rd round pick, two things happened in the last two days that say otherwise:
1) The Denver Broncos themselves placed only a 1st round tender on Marshall
2) The Anquan Boldin trade
The Boldin trade, in particular, dealt what could have been a giant blow to the idea that the Broncos will be getting what we as fans hope is a fair value for the player known as The Beast.
After the jump, we'll look at the Boldin deal, it's consequences for Marshall, and what both Seattle and Denver might be considering as they discuss what Bradon Marshall is worth.
False Expectations
On October 14th, 2008, the Detroit Lions made their greatest play in the team's history. They completely fleeced the Dallas Cowboys by trading wide receiver Roy Williams to them for a 1st, 3rd, and a 6th-round draft pick. The trade, it was speculated, was a result of Cowboys owner Jerry Jones and his desperate attempt to win after Tony Romo broke his finger the same year. No matter what the reason, the trade will certainly go down as one of the stupidest trades in NFL history.
This trade also had the unfortunate consequence of setting a false market value for wide receivers. Given that Roy Williams was worth this much of a haul, certainly other wide receivers like Chad Ochocinco had this kind of value too. In fact, earlier in the same year, the Washington Redskins had offered the Cincinnati Bengals two first-round draft picks (the 2nd pick conditional on performance measures) for Ochocinco (then Chad Johnson). The Bengals refused.
These two deals, along with the general diva-like behavior of wide receivers, helped to create a perception that wide receivers had exceedingly high value.
Fast forward to today. Boy, do things change. We are about to enter an uncapped year in the NFL. The market has changed. The perception of value changes too. So two years ago, Anquan Boldin and Brandon Marshall may very well have been worth a lot more than they are today. But as fans, tipsy off of our desire to see our team do well, we often mistakenly believe what we are holding is more valuable than it really is. The market has a way of bringing us back to reality, however. The Anquan Boldin trade is that reality.
Reducing Anquan Boldin to a Number
Officially, the Arizona Cardinals sent Boldin (and a 5th-round draft pick) to the Ravens for a 3rd and a 4th-round draft pick. But to really get an idea of the real values of these picks, we must look at the actual placement of each of these picks within these rounds. If we use the standard draft value chart that most teams stick to, we could write this as an equation:
88th pick (150 points) + 121st pick (52 points) = 154th pick (30.8 points) + Anquan Boldin
If we consider Anquan Boldin the variable, we would then place Boldin's point value at 171.20 points. This is the equivalent of the 83rd pick in the NFL draft (3rd Round). Now we are getting a better idea of how the Cardinals saw Boldin's value--A mid 3rd-round draft pick. Or if we just want to objectify Mr. Boldin completely, 171.20 points.
You can begin to see why getting a lot of value for Marshall becomes more difficult in a market which values, one could argue, a Top-5 wideout at this level. We'll return to this in a moment.
But let's ask ourselves, can we apply this sort of analysis to Brandon Marshall and what's currently going on with the Seahawks?. Absolutely. Right now, owners and general managers are using these kinds of charts and the current deals that are being made to determine if their own deals are structured properly, so there's no reason we should let them have all the fun.
A Extremely Quick and Ridiculously Simplified Comparison
Here's where it gets tricky. Can we equate Brandon Marshall and Anquan Boldin? Do they add similar value? Let's take a stab at this using a simple valuation approach that one can apply to any productive asset, in this case two NFL players. It's called the RAG approach to asset valuation. It involves looking two investments from a perspective of Risk/Reward, Alternative Investments, and Growth.
Risk/Reward
In short, investments that have a high reward and low risk are worth more than assets that don't. And here, if you are the Seahawks, you have concerns. Marhall's off-the-field and injury risks are well documented. In fact, there are many in Seattle that are right now pointing this out to anyone that will listen. This from Greg Johns with the Seattle Post Intelligencer:
Remember when Tim Ruskell worried as much about character as talent when it came to football decisions? Those days apparently are in the past as the Seattle Seahawks' new leadership is reportedly pursuing the possibility of signing Brandon Marshall.
Adam Schefter of ESPN is reporting that the Denver Broncos receiver, one of the NFL's most-notorious bad boys in recent years, will visit the Seahawks on Saturday as the two sides talk about a possible contract offer.
Boldin, while presenting similar injury risks to Marshall, presents no such off-the-field risk. In fact, quite the contrary. Unlike Marshall, who famously tried to take a run at Denver's punting position when the Broncos wouldn't give him a new contract, Boldin remained steadfast, quiet, and by all accounts, a team leader and positive locker-room presence when the Cardinals wouldn't offer him a new contract.
So while Marshall might have a slightly higher upside, the risk he presents is more significant than Boldin. So, for me, it's a wash. But I'm feeling frisky and emotional as a Bronco fan, so let's say we add a slight premium for Marshall.
Alternative Investments
The alternative for both Denver and Seattle right now is clear: Dez Bryant. If Seattle doesn't deal for Marshall, Bryant makes sense for them. If Denver deals Marshall, Bryant is a distinct possibility, as Sayre Bedinger has pointed out many times.
Despite this draft being relatively deep with wideouts, this is a complex question, really, for the Seahawks: is Dez Bryant or a Seattle receiving corp made up of TJ Houshmandzadeh and company a reasonable alternative to Marshall? Before you answer this question, I implore you again to ignore cumulative stats (100 catches, 1,000 yards), which are really just a reflection of targeting, and to look at rate stats. In fact, I did just that in a previous article, in which Jabar Gaffney had a higher points value per pass than Marshall. Once you do this, I think you'll come to the conclusion that Marshall is not as valuable as the media hype that comes with catching 100 balls. Certainly not significantly higher than Anquan Boldin.
But even so, I enjoy adding premiums, so we'll give Marshall the advantage again.
Growth
Marshall (25) is younger than Boldin (29), so presumably, one would have the opportunity for 4 additional years of production out of Marshall. Moreover, given this age difference, we have likely seen Boldin peak at level of about 80 catches and 1,000 yards. Marshall, as scary as it sounds, has the potential to get even better--when his head is right. 100 catches and 1,200 yards is not out of the question for Marshall for the foreseeable future. However, let's not get carried away with cumulative stats. The fact of the matter is that Boldin catches more passes as a percentage of targeted passes (72%) to Marshall (67%). So if Boldin was targeted as many times as Marshall, he'd actually have more catches.
Because of Marshall's age, we'll give him the advantage, but I don't believe it's a huge advantage, as Ernesto Ruiz pointed out to me earlier in the day:
[Boldin's] production essentially mirrors Brandon's. As a player who has never relied on speed or agility (the tools that fade with age) Boldin is likely to hold up well as he enters the decline of his career. Marshall's physical style, on the other hand, may be cause for concern as he exists his prime. Speaking of which, baseball players tend to experience their primes in their mid-to-early 20's and I can't imagine that football would be much different, so perhaps it's time to consider the possibility that BM has reached his peak and is in fact on his way down.
#14 or Bust?
So now that we've given Marshall a higher value premium than Boldin, we are ready to apply this to what many Bronco fans say we must have if we are to let Marshall go--the 14th pick of the NFL draft. In sheer value, the 14th pick is worth 1100 points to NFL owners and general managers, or 929 points more than what the Cardinals let Boldin go for.
From a market value perspective, in which no one is beating down the door of the Broncos for Marshall, this is an exceedingly high premium for the Seahawks to pay. I was very generous in demonstrating Marshall's value over Boldin, but is Marshall really 6 times more valuable than Boldin? I highly doubt it. Even if he's three times as valuable (and that's debatable), this equates to only 513 points, or the 7th pick in the 2nd round.
Interestingly enough, Seattle now owns the 8th pick in the 2nd round? Coincidence? I think not.
Perhaps the saving grace in all of this that human beings are not rational, because if they were, the Seahawks would not offer the Broncos the 14th pick based on points and market value. In fact, as we know from the study of behavioral economics, people will often overvalue an asset--specifically one that they are attached too. That's what makes this recent comment from Bill Williamson so interesting:
There are going to be layers to this situation. First, Seattle has to feel comfortable with Marshall. That is the purpose of this visit. He has had several off-field issues, so Seattle has make sure it has a good feeling about Marshall. It has a good start because former Denver assistants Jeremy Bates, Jedd Fisch and Pat McPherson are on Seattle's staff. They know Marshall and they like him.
It appears as if Jeremy Bates and Jedd Fisch are really wanting to do this deal. And this is good for Denver. The more Bates lets his friendship and emotion for Marshall sway him, and the more than Marshall flashes his boyish charm, the more likely Seattle will be to pull the trigger, overvalue what they are getting, and dump the 14th pick (and a player!) to Denver in the morning. Let's all cross our fingers.
Still, I agree with this comment left on a message board under Johns' column by a Seahawks fan that didn't have the time or the inclination to leave his name:
Even if they negotiate down to something like the #14 and Sims this is a dumb move for the Hawks. Having Marshall does them little good when they have a declining,injury prone QB and an O-line that can't protect him. And Marshall is one bong hit away from a mandatory 8-game suspension by the league so this move comes with enormous risk with very little chance of return on investment.
Before the final game of the season last year the team captains went to coach McDaniels and specifically asked that Marshall NOT be allowed to suit up for the last game because of his attitude. This was on an 8-8 club that still had a shot at playoff contention that week and they didn't want him on the field.
I can only imagine what Marshall would be like on a rebuilding Hawks club. Remarkably similar to TO in his 49er days. Great stats for him, didn't do jack to help that franchise.
While it's not clear that the team captains were signaling out Marshall specifically (they could have meant Scheffler), sometimes perception is reality when it comes to risk and assessing value.
McEvil Genius?
Is all of this part of McDaniels' master plan to keep Marshall? Is it possible that the Seahawks will low ball the Broncos and this will show Marshall the light? Is it possible, just possible, that we'll be seeing Marshall back in Denver next year? Fellow MHR-staffer Brian Shrout raised this possibility with me today. After all, McDaniels says he can work with Marshall, despite their recent differences.
Anything's possible. After all, Santa gave Pete Carroll another shot at an NFL head-coaching job.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
8 recs |
51 comments
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Comments
he cant believe
he didnt drop that ball
"Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that."
"We laugh to stave off madness."
I'm no Brandon Marshall supporter
Don’t care if he stays or goes. But he’s a Bronco today, and that’s a bad picture.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Good write up TJ...
I’ll be happy either way…just want it to be over so we can get on with the rest of our off-season business…Lots of work to do here and, as usual, BM is (again) the “star” of the (side) show…Sheesh…BTW, love the pic!
-Stick to the fight when you are hardest hit - it's when things seem worst that you must not quit!
72, Sometimes a picture is worth.....ha
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
i'd like to believe john bena
and that all of this is about darrent williams. maybe..just maybe..if that trial is over and done with and the bastards are put in jail for life marshall will be able to settle down and focus on football
I think it has a lot to do with why he wants out, certainly, march. Absolutely.
I hope he can come to terms with those demons. No one deserves to have that haunting memory their whole life.
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Odd...
It feels weird to be quooted in a piece like this! You do a great job of putting together the disparate aspects of this whole mess and distilling the entire debate into fundamental, unassailable positions. I love posts that flow like extended logical arguments!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
You guys are authority figures now! I have to quote you.!
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Good work TJ! You bring up some great points.
However, I have to poke at your stats for a minute here. You say that Gaffney has a higher points value per pass than Marshall. These types of stats kill me, because they don’t take into account anything else going on in the game. If we had a chart showing which corner was covering BM on every play and which ones were covering Gaffney on every play, it would most likely be a joke. Switch the DB’s, and I guarantee you those numbers are skewed way into Marshall’s favor. That stat also doesn’t take into account the fact that Brandon is double-covered often, and is always the #1 threat on our team to the other teams defense, they always have eyes on him. Gaffney doesn’t garner the same attention, not by a long shot. And as for Boldin, guess who he has playing across the field from him taking away the other teams best cornerback? Larry Fitzgerald, one of the best 2 receivers in the game. While your stat is a good indicator of how effective we are when the ball is thrown to Gaffney, it just ignores everything else that is going on with the team and every other variable that goes into it, in my opinion.
I am not arguing your points in the thread, they are all valid and appreciated, I am just a stats hater and felt the need to dig into that particular stat.
AL, it's great actually, you know I always abide and will readily admit
that stats have to be taken as indicative of larger trends. I really don’t mine at all, stats hater!!! (by the way, you should read my other stuff so that you can apply that hate even more:-))
Okay, let me see if I can even hold up an argument here:
1) Fitzgerald. Agreed. However, Boldin was putting up HUGE numbers before Fitz came, don’t you agree? Boldin was actually setting NFL records before Fitz got there. Some would argue that Fitz benefited as much from Boldin as Boldin did from Fitz.
2) Gaffney did a lot of his damage when Marshall wasn’t on the field, in particular, against KC. Not the stiffest of competition, but Marshall also did a lot of damage against KC too. I’m telling, you dude, Marshall was not always covered by the best CB from the other team. In fact, often Marshall’s head was out of the game, as has been pointed out against the Ravens.
3) Don’t let the stats kill you, mate. It’s not worth it.
4) Gaffney did have a higher points value, and while not taking into account everything, it took into account a lot, including drops, yac, etc. Gaffney may not be the physical specimen that Marshall is, I think the stat is indicative that Marshalls value isn’t through the roof, like say, Marvin Harrison or Reggie Wayen in 2006, who had values much much higher than Marshall, for instance.
Alright, my friend. Stay cool. The main point of this post is to make sure you are falling in love with that #6 or #14!
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
I generally read all of your stuff, and always enjoy it, I just let the stats wash over me the majority of the time. :)
1.) Actually, I didn’t think about Boldin’s play before Fitz’ arrival, good point. And no doubt, they benefit from each other greatly. I think Brandon hasn’t had a fellow receiver to take the kind of pressure of him ala Fitz and Boldin, with the possible exception of Eddie’s rookie year, of course.
2.) Interesting, I guess I don’t pay enough attention, and wrongfully assumed he always drew the other teams best guy.
3.) I hear you, stats and I don’t get along. No worries.
In your last part there, did you mean to say “you are not falling in love with that #6 or #14”?
lol, yes, NOT, exactly! I hope we get 14 though!
You bring up another good point, though. TJ Hous and Bmarsh. Could even mean a bigger year for TJ, no? Like the old days with Ocho.
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Watching film on Gaffney in 2008
I learned that he, despite being on the field with R. Moss and Welker, managed to be in the right place at the right time over and again, whether that was throwing the block to free Welker, running a run route to spring Moss or catching the ball on a key third down. Gaff has been underestimated over the course of his career, but what we saw last year is a taste of what he can do when given the chance. Keep in mind – he was mostly trading downs with Royal. As a #2 receiver, he can do a lot of damage. He’s equally good on the outside or in the slot, too. You need players like that.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
Something to think about when comparing Marshall to Gaffney
You have raised valid points aLuffabo — coverages, game situations, etc — but those can be evened out somewhat by the fact that despite the heavier & arguably better coverage on Marshall, he was still targeted at a rate of nearly 2-to-1 over Gaffney, but only caught 20 more balls than Jabbar. That’s going to definitely affect the stats.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
My bad
I was looking at the targets column as I was typing. He only caught 54. Color me embarrassed. :)
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Come on
Boldin, while presenting similar injury risks to Marshall
Boldin has in the last 3 years missed 9 games due to injury while Marshall has not missed a single game due to injury in the last 3 years. Boldin is both due to his medical history and due to his age a bigger injury risk than Marshall is.
in which Jabar Gaffney had a higher points value per pass than Marshall. Once you do this, I think you’ll come to the conclusion that Marshall is not as valuable as the media hype that comes with catching 100 balls.
The reason Gaffney doesn’t get as many targets as Marshall is that he requires a lot more space to get open than Marshall does. If we look at Ratings we have to conclude that Josh Brown is a much much better QB than Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Brett Favre or Tom Brady, he had a 36 yard per attempt average and a 1 TD/att average. Much much better than Brees, Manning, Schaub or Favre could manage. Ratings are very dangerous because they only tell a very limited story.
Even if he’s three times as valuable (and that’s debatable), this equates to only 513 points, or the 7th pick in the 2nd round.
Interestingly enough, Seattle now owns the 8th pick in the 2nd round? Coincidence? I think not.
So it is not a coincidence that an arbitrary number multiplied by the draft pick value traded for Boldin almost equals the value of Seattle’s 2nd round pick? You are going to have to explain that one again.
Before the final game of the season last year the team captains went to coach McDaniels and specifically asked that Marshall NOT be allowed to suit up for the last game because of his attitude. This was on an 8-8 club that still had a shot at playoff contention that week and they didn’t want him on the field.
I know you are citing someone else here, but it would suit you to point out the blatant factual error, the meeting where the team leaders (some captains some not) asked Mcdaniels to be stringent about players for the final did not mention any player by name and was conducted Monday afternoon, however Marshall did not get injured until Wednesday and did not turn up 20 minutes late for treatment until Friday, so unless you want to claim that Bailey, Graham, Dawkins, DJ Williams et al are so clairvoyant they can predict an injury and a late show by Marshall but not that Jamaal Charles was going to run all over them, then that is factually wrong.
Some players asked Mcdaniels to be firm in dealing with distractions leading up to the final game, but all of this happened days before the actions Marshall got suspended for. Wether or not Scheffler was mentioned in the meeting is unknown but not impossible.
by gyldenlove on Mar 6, 2010 6:31 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
One point of correction
Marshall may not have missed any games due to injuries, but he has missed the majority of the OTA’s & training camp work outs every year he has been in the league due to injuries and/or a personal decision to not attend.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
He also had a run of games where he was dropping balls...
…and folks were worried about the tendon.
More importantly, I think Boldin’s injury was a freak thing (wasn’t it a maxila-facial injury?). If so, I wouldn’t call him an injury risk. Marshall’s was freak to, but self inflicted.
However, the bottom line is this…. If Marshall is worth a 1st round pick, why aren’t teams lining up to get him? It looks like Denver set the bid to start, and only Seatle offered. And Seatle isn’t jumping at the cost either.
I think Denver made a smart move. EIther they get a first rounder (unlikely), or Marshall stays (realizing that he isn’t worth as much as everyone thinks), or he leaves for less than a 1st (in which case Denver gets rid of a headache and gets some compensation). According to the market so far, Marshall is not worth a first round pick (defining the market as all 32 teams with a chance at Marshall).
Formerly known as Hoosierteacher or just HT.
"I presume that all of you here think me worthy of pity. But Great God, when I think I was on the point of doing nothing, I consider myself worthy of envy." Jean Valjean, Hugo's Les Miserables
by Steve Nichols on Mar 6, 2010 6:42 PM MST up reply actions
How do you know that Seattle isn't jumping at the cost?
It could very well be that Marshall asks for too much in the contract. In which case, wouldn’t matter where the tender was originally placed. It’s not like Seattle wouldn’t have made a simple phone call. Not like BM’s price would have changed.
I asked you in a post earlier, but I may have missed the reply:
Is there a case where you would EVER criticize moving Marshall?How about criticizing the Broncos? You said that it’s a “win/win”, either way. I’m sure the easy road now, is to say a 5th rounder is bad, but a 1 or 2 is good. But do you truly ever have your own opinion without it being the company line? Do the other staff members here? Do you disagree with anything? Ever?
Obviously, that was way too open-ended. Instead, is there a price for Marshall where you would EVER disagree? In fact, is there a situation in the last year, a big situation, where you have ever gone against the company line?
I have a hard time here, because I’ve read much of your stuff, and truly enjoy it. I’m not meaning this rude. In fact, as a peace offering, let me just say again here, that I think I over valued Brandon’s “outside” value. Looks like I was wrong. I still think that the specific tender we placed took us out of contorl, and even that it’s better to keep him than allowing him to walk for a single pick. I also hold firmly that it’s early in FA, and RFA’s get more attention later. Even still, it looks like I was wrong on BM’s value.
I was wrong.
That said, my question is: Have you agreed with every major decision that the Broncos made in the last year? Have you been openly and strongly against any major decision they’ve made?
DP has blabberers that don’t know what they’re talking about. MHR has very knowledgable football guys. Yet, aside from McGeorge, it’s like pissing on Easter to give an opinion that goes against the “company line”. And that problem starts from the top.
Personally, I learn more about my team from hearing two sides.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Elvis, I am not sure how to answer this.
I have had posters say that of all of the MHR writers, I am the MOST critical, so to hear you say that I spread the company line is strange to me, quite frankly.
Did you read my column 2 week’s ago about McDaniels’ coacing decision in week 15? I essentially equated this decision with costing the Broncos the playoffs. That would not really be the company line, mate.
Or my piece on Knowshown Moreno? I was heavily critical when comparing him to Buckhalter. In my weekly piece, I criticized the Broncos every week for their 3rd down percentages. If you’d like, I can put the quotes from those pieces in this very thread.
When John asked me to join up he said 2 things:
1) Have an opinion (I think I do that)
2) Stay above the fray
John never censors anything I do or any topic that I decide to write about.
Elvis, if you give me some bullet points about what the party line is, I’ll try to see if my views have been consistently consistent within this context. I’m not afraid to re-examine this. So let’s examine the party line, then.
Your turn.
TJ
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Critical
There is critical and there is narrowminded.
We don’t always agree, but usually when I don’t comment on your posts it is because we agree fully, so don’t think we always disagree, to my mind we don’t even disagree most of the time.
You write very good pieces and unlike many commenters, bloggers and posters around the web, you always have good reasons to back up your claims and thoughts. Critical is good, critical means you have rational thought and personal opponinion, the two things that more than anything set humans apart from all other species, in my book you are a better person for being critical.
As a reply to your points lower down:
1. Marshall has had some pretty serious injuries, but they have never directly affected playing time, I still believe that had he not been benched he would have played despite his hamstring against the Chiefs.
2. I know it wasn’t fair to compare a kicker with 1 pass to QBs, but I just wanted to highlight the danger of using rates only. I am not sure rates is a good comparison in many cases if achieved under different circumstances, but you can certainly draw some conclusions if the sample size is comparable and the circumstances under which the rates were produced are considered. Call my pathetic attempt exaggeration to improve understanding.
3. Sorry, that was me being picky there, I hate it when people say coincidence, I think not and any other similar lines. If you look long enough you can always find interesting coincidences, some can be readily explained and some appear to be entirely random, but the world is full of them.
Hi Elvis
I wasn’t sure that I was going to respond to this:
But do you truly ever have your own opinion without it being the company line? Do the other staff members here?
but the more I thought about it, the more I felt compelled to. I’m sort of like TJ in this one. I don’t feel like I have a particularly good understand of what the Broncos’ party line is, so I don’t know if I’m following it or not.
I get my news from the same sources you do, and I respond with what I think about what I’ve read. My own strength is to look at the statistics — not with the same analytical skill that TJ brings to the table — and see if I can discern patterns in them. Then I base my opinion on the patterns I see.
If my opinions seem overly optimistic — or advocating the company line — it is largely because that is how I approach most things in my life. It’s easier on my blood pressure and keeps me from snapping at my wife and daughters and students.
Also, if you look at my track record, I am one of the MHR members who has fairly consistently advocated that voices which have criticisms based on evidence should be respected and heard. I’ll admit that I often disagree with the interpretation of the evidence, but that’s why we have comments sections after posts: to encourage dialogue.
The only “company line” that I intentionally follow is the Code of Conduct that I agreed to when I became a member.
Dunno if this addresses your concern, but I hope it helps.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
You got my rec for your first assertion
You won’t get many more. If Marshall leaves, which is pretty probable, everybody is going to continue to reason why it was the “right” choice". The reasoning will get better than the Boldin injury comparisson, once it’s fine-tuned, but it’ll be yes-men everywhere.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
When I was on staff
I found it common to have members confuse a consistent attempt to understand what is happening with agreement on what is done. I think that you’ve confused this here.
I know TJ very well. He’s consistently broken down the season and the work on the Broncos – management, coaching and players – and attempted to understand what is being done, but he’s also criticized coaches and player alike if their ratings or actions warranted it. I know that it’s popular to see this as ‘yes men’, but that’s off the mark. I’ve spoken to him many times on site and privately, and he’s never held back on things taht he feels are wrong. And he’s right – you should probably read the column on coaching decisions as a single example – hardly the only one, but it’s handy.
Like BShrout, I tend to a positive outlook. Should I dump that and try to be someone else so that some members will be happier about it? I find the idea kind of strange. Each staffer should do what seems right to them. It’s easy to be critical, but why should they try to toe someone else’s party line
I’ve always enjoyed your perspective, ea, and I’m not picking a fight. But, I’ve also been in their position, and the tendency of some folks to complain about their perspectives leaves me pretty cold. Why? Should you change yours if a member doesn’t like it? Of course not. The same goes for the staff, who put in long hours, lots of work and get paid nothing but the satisfaction of doing the job well. Whatever viewpoint they have is their own and more power to them.
Don't say rebuild - say reload...
glyden, nice to see you again
1) Injuries. Not buying it. Marshall tried missing time because of hamstring injuries but was forced to play by both Shanny and benched by McDanles or he would have sat because of injury in the last week. Gave him a higher premium regardless.
2) Your QB comparison is neither fair nor correct due to sample size, but I agree that ratings can be dangerous.
3) What’s to explain. It’s an arbitrary number. That was said a little tongue-in-cheek. I’ll be clearer. I think they will offer a 2nd for Marshall. There you go.
4) It suits me. I’ll correct this right now.
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Boldin, while presenting similar injury risks to Marshall…
Glyden said it’s not comparable. You talked about Marshall’s idiocy instead of actual injuries. Is BM an injury risk?
The “injury risk” is absolutely not comparable. Do you disagree? Good stuff, I think I’ve been sorta rude the last couple days. I don’t mean to point that at you. But give the kid a bone. He’s right, Boldin’s injuries are not comparable to BM.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Elvis, okay, he is right. Boldin has more cumulative injuries than Marshall.
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Its a well-written, reasonable piece
One nitpick on your stats. While total stats aren’t perfect, neither are rate stats. While Marshall is seeing more passes than Gaffney, he’s also probably seeing tighter coverage. Gaffney (and Boldin) benefits not being the #1 WR on the team.
Is this one of those photo caption posts?
I’ll try one.
“Ahhhh, there’s a spider on this ball.”
On a serious note, I would be reasonably pleased with a 14th overall pick and a player. If we got more than that, I’ll be happy. What would make me have a huge smile that I couldn’t wipe off my face for months or years??? If Brandon Marshall doesn’t get an offer he likes and comes crawling back to Pat Bowlen and promptly signs a 4 year deal worth about 10 million per year.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
Odd...
I noticed that you linked to profiles of both Chad Johnson and Chad Ochocinco, and I noticed that the Ochocinco one links to his normal Bengals profile like I expected. But the Johnson one leads to a profile for “Chad Johnson, WR, Kansas City Chiefs,” with the same pictures, stats, and links. So, wtf???
Hey kiddies.... I have Internet candy in my van...
papi, I have no freakin' clue. when you run autotag, the bot simply does that?
good question..he get traded to KC :-)
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Good POV but too much analytical minutiae!
You did a very good job of putting a theorhetical concept that happened to match up with the NFL value by position. But unfortunately its all quantatative, not qualitative. If anyone on this site or in the NFL can possible try to numerical rationalize the value difference between 2 completely different WRs, then you have too much time on your hands…it can NOT be solved mathematically, nor statistically. Marhshall is younger, more talented, healthier, with more upside. That, just like a 1st round tender, means 1st round! or 1st round +….just sayin
"Attitude reflects Leadership" Hogblog...aka KSM
Hog, hah! Thanks...I guess!
Too much time, no, just a penchant for numerical silliness.
Hog, seriously, though, they do try to numerically rationalize this. It . can. be. done. Must. try….harder
thanks for the read!
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Besides the last quote about the team leaders calling marshall out by name to the coach
(which I disagree with) I strongly disagree with the idea that our alternative option to trading Marshall is to pick up Bryant in the draft. It seems to me that selecting him would go against the “team first” players and leaders that the Broncos are trying to bring in. Sure he is a top 10 talent but in my mind it isn’t worth it to pick up a guy who is always late to practices and meeting and seems to not be accountable for his actions which is something that McD preaches. I hope that if we do trade Marshall that it is for a receiver in the middle rounds that might be a little better leader than Marshall has been.
Also I do agree that McD would like to keep Marshall if he can get Marshall to realize that his value isn’t as high as he personally thinks it is. From everything I have read or seen I see no personal animosity from McD towards Marshall. The only thing I see is an employer holding his employee accountable for his actions and decisions that are a detriment to the professionalism and excellence of the company.
You completely ruin arguments
By bringing logic and rationality in to the picture Dude. Lol
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Gotta hate logic!
it always ruins the fun of emotional stuff!
Stats-O-Fun
I implore you again to ignore cumulative stats (100 catches, 1,000 yards), which are really just a reflection of targeting…
Dude, this makes me wonder if lamont jordan wasn’t really better than knowshon but moreno got more handoffs…?
anyway, if no one else is smart enough to give up a first rounder for marshall, it’s their loss and i’d love for him to stay. the main thing to me is that no matter how much i’d like to see that, i really wonder how he could live—let alone play football—in denver, where he might constantly be literally fearing for his life.
Great job TJ
This has helped me come to grips with the fact that we COULD get a 2nd round pick for Marshall, but I don’t see it. I don’t think the Boldin and Marshall situations are as comparable. Denver has a thing going for it though—the tender. As Brian pointed out, this could be the Broncos’ diabolical plan to keep Marshall around. The first round tender for a player of Marshall’s caliber is an open invitation for teams to trade for him, and the Seahawks came calling.
If the Seahawks wanted to sign Marshall to an offer sheet, which they reportedly don’t, the Broncos would get the 6th overall pick. Not that Denver will be to stubborn to renegotiate, but trading Marshall for a 2nd puts the Seahawks in a far better situation than Denver. That would allow them to add a potential franchise LT, QB, and WR with their first three picks in the draft.
What does it leave Denver with? A high second round pick, and less flexibility in the first round.
Now I feel like I’m rambling. Basically, if we’re going to rid of Marshall we should ensure an elite offensive and defensive prospect in the first round of the draft. That’s my opinion haha
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
Sayre, I am hoping you are right and we'll get that 14th pick
Don’t underestimate Bates and his need to get Marshall!
But I’m setting myself up for less. Believe me, I agree with you. Don’t trade him for the 2nd!
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
damn you, bizarro world article!
i guess this was the dummy “sugar plum” article created to throw off the less savvy posters. tricky. well, color me suckered. i should be posting over on the front page “sugar plum” article but no, here i am. blah blah blah. no one’s reading this because it’s the bastard clone child of the real mccoy. perhaps my doppleganger will pull through for me and post on the first string article. me, i’ve already pounded the golden spike into the ground here. no use trying to traverse the wormholes of etherspace to find my way to Sugar Plum 1. nope. no thanks. i’ll just stay here and post from the kids table, wondering what the adults over there with the cigars, snifters and monocles are talking about. “recent fanpost” my butt. this wasn’t recent at all. not when there’s a more recent post with the exact same words and letters over on the front page (virtual though it is). maybe i’ll stop over there and just peak in. i bet all the MHR stars are over there yuckin’ it up, talking crap about Marshall, loving on the Broncos’ future of draft picks and receiver sets with multiple #2 receivers… sure, it’s the studio 54 of the “sugar plum” articles over there. without the cocaine and promiscuity and David Thompson ruining his chance to be the greatest NBA player ever by falling down the stairs and jacking up his knee. probably wasn’t even the real studio 54 he was at. nah, screw it. this is MY Sugar Plum article. it’s the ugly, toothless, mole-haired ginger stepchild Sugar Plum article, but i need to stand by it and own it. yep. standing by… this is the one for me… uh huh… eh, maybe i should get to bed and stop typing ridiculous crap on a page that no one’s reading. although, frankly, that’s probably the best place to type ridiculous crap if you’re inclined…
by oxmouth on Mar 6, 2010 11:18 PM MST reply actions 4 recs
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I'm reading, and trying to perceive/understand your point
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
oxmouth, I am rec'ing this because it was completely awesome
It’s late and I am am seeing a little Jack Kerouac here…..
TJ
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
Haha, fun stuff.
I could’ve used some of what you’re having….back in the 70s, of course.
"People who live in glass houses...shouldn't."
I just saw Mick Jagger
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks

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