Brandon Marshall Open Thread: First-Rounder or Bust?
by ejruiz on Mar 7, 2010 1:46 PM MST
in 2010 Denver Broncos Offseason
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Unsurprisingly, wide receiver Brandon Marshall's restricted free agency continues to dominate the news cycle as far as the Denver Broncos are concerned. Earlier today we got this fresh insight from the National Football Post's Michael Lombardi (hat tip to T.Dot_Broncos for sharing this via FanShot):
I fully expect another team to jump into the Brandon Marshall sweepstakes at some point this week. Not certain which team, but it appears Marshall has more than one team interested in his services. I do know this: The Denver Broncos won’t negotiate a trade for Marshall. Either a team is prepared to pay a first-rounder or move along. Denver will not take calls on Marshall; it’s either an offer sheet or he plays in Denver next season. If Seattle really wants Marshall, it will take the sixth pick in the draft….
Forget about what Lombardi believes (that another team will join the Seattle Seahawks in the pursuit of Brandon this week) and focus on what he claims to know (that the Broncos will not negotiate a trade for Marshall). We went into this process thinking that we could get value equivalent to first and third round draft picks in exchange for our disgruntled Pro Bowl WR and worried all of yesterday about the prospect of not even securing a single first round selection in return for him, but it seems as though - as is often the case - the truth lies somewhere in between. To paraphrase Mike Lombardi: Denver will either be picking twice in the first round of this year's draft or Brandon Marshall will be donning our beloved Orange and Blue yet again next season.
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Little bit of news on Dwan Edwards..
From ‘ravonsinsider’ Aaron Wilson:
He was asked if we where serious about signing him:
Answer: Depends on how Dwan Edwards’ physical goes for if he’ll get a Denver offer. Back is a tricky issue for teams to consider.
I hope it is Seattle’s 1st -
I could see either Eric Berry or Gerald McCoy falling to Denver.
1. St Louis = Sam Bradford
2. Detroit = Russell Oktung
3. Tamap Bay = N. Suh
4. Washington = Jimmy Clausen
5. KC = Bryan Bulaga
6. Seattle / Denver possible = Eric Berry or Gerald McCoy
Interesting...
II don’t like McCoy for our scheme and I sincerely doubt that the Chiefs pass on Berry for Bulaga. I’m actually not that big of a fan of the #6 pick and I imagine that we’d probably snag our favorite of the guys we have hoped would fall to #11…
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Also check this article on Jarvis Green..
.. Explains why we haven’t had him in for a visit yet.. but may still if we see him filling a need for us.
I fully believe
The “other teams are interested” is just posturing by Marshalls agent. If he can get Seattle to think they may lose him then,,,,,,,,,,,,,well they may just get bullied into pulling the trigger. The source IMO is Marshalls agent……………bus cook isn’t it?
BTW Pashos signed with the Browns today.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King Jr.
Cool. We'll take Hadnot
from the Browns, then. ;-)
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants country, and damned proud of it.
I'm confused by the the logic from Lombardi article, actually. Why would we not entertain trade offers?
The Denver Broncos won’t negotiate a trade for Marshall.
Sure, it makes sense from the perspective that we will accept nothing less than a 1st rounder. However, what if we wanted to get “more” than a 1st rounder? If a team wants to gain the rights to sign Marshall to any contract they want (meaning as low as they want), wouldn’t they try and appease the Broncos first?
It made sense when the seahawks didn’t want to sign Marshall, right away, because they don’t want to give up their sixth pick. However, that is when the negotiations should step in. Instead of just giving Marshall an offer and hoping the Broncos don’t match, they could throw in an extra pick or a player to retain the rights of Marshall. That way, they don’t have to worry about the Broncos matching the contract. They could sign Marshall to whatever contract they want (large or small).
By not even listening to offers, the Broncos are putting themselves in a box. At least “listen” to the offers. If you don’t like it, explain why and wait for a better one. Similar to the way that we did it last year when Cassel calls came coming in. Wow, four letter c’s in a row. Alliteration anyone?
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
Well, I went to the redundancy school of redundancy, so I'm pretty good at being pretty good..
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
something reminds me of something...
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 7, 2010 5:02 PM MST up reply actions
hahaha, nice.
This perfectly fitting comic strip fits perfectly.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
My guess is that they do listen to all offers (ie Cutler).
but the 1st rounder is the base line.
"The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy."
Martin Luther King Jr.
I believe they'll do that too, but the One sentence that struck me in the article was the one I posted.
I find it very difficult to believe they wouldn’t negotiate a trade. If the right parameters are met, I’m sure that McXanders will pull the trigger on a trade.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
I'm having a lot of trouble forming sentences, today. The "one" shouldn't have been capitalized.
I need a nap…..
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
yes and no
If they agree to bargain then they’re saying they’ll take less. I think a #14 is agreeable but to signal that they’ll bargain means they have to tip their hand as being agreeable to taking less than #6. Denver may be open to the terms — i.e., open to #14 as fair — but agreeing to bargain is agreeing to less. Or else why bargain? Denver is saying here’s the price if you want him. It’s more a question of whether other teams will show interest. Other teams are gauging whether they’ll lose him to a team willing to pay the price. Nobody wants to go out on a limb unless they have to.
Denver is letting the market set his value. Other teams are doing the same — so to speak. They want some indication that there are other teams interested before they’re willing to ante up. A show of disinterest could drop his price and make him available for a much cheaper price. It’s also a gambit to get Marshall & agent to lower their price, too.
no goats, no glory.
It could be that Denver is only willing to pull the trigger
If they can get a deal similar to the Cutler one.
I’m inclined to believe that it is more likely that Denver wants the time to convince Marshall to return to the Broncos’ stable.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
brothers from different mothers maybe?
LOL
Or is it the “great minds” quote?
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Sadly those of us who have felt this way all along,
are a shrinking number….
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
I think this quote from the Seattle Times sums it up pretty well, story here
When free agency began, I expected Seattle’s interest in Marshall — if there was any — to slowly simmer as long as the market for unrestricted free agents was at a rolling boil. Instead, the Seahawks interest bubbled to the surface on Friday, resulting in Marshall’s visit.
How quickly things proceed from here is unclear. The signing period for restricted free agents runs until April 15.
We are not at the deadline for the FA period, and I imagine if a deal is to made for Marshall it will happen, maybe just not as soon as we all had hoped.
Lady, you want me to answer you if this old airplane is safe to fly? Just how in the world do you think it got to be this old?
— Anon
Both optimists and pessimists contribute to the society. The optimist invents the aeroplane, the pessimist the parachute.
— George Bernard Shaw
by Choochoobonewagon on Mar 7, 2010 2:13 PM MST reply actions
Great post, EJ
It’s good to see the regime hold out for what they believe Marshall’s value is.
The Dude abides. I don't know about you but I take comfort in that.
For any one needing a little football injection..
Just thought it would be a nice break from all this stressful trades business..
Take it!
by HorseStance on Mar 7, 2010 2:30 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
I'd just rather keep him
I am starting to feel like a Lions fan here. Getting all giddy about drafting high and enjoying their season…April.
I don’t like that mindset and I think McDaniels is taking the right stand. Unless Denver believes they need to move up to get a qb…make no deals and force a team to sign Marshall.
by CastorTroy on Mar 7, 2010 2:33 PM MST via mobile reply actions
I get everybody being mesmerized by the draft picks...
…but does anybody really want us going into next season with this group of receivers (minus Marshall)? That certainly scares me.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
It's hard not to watch at least a few minutes everytime it's on.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
Like Blood Sport or Top Gun, I’m probably going to give it my full attention until the credits roll. That blonde he takes down is smokin.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Mar 7, 2010 2:42 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
"That blonde he takes down is smokin."
Best kiss scene ever! I’ll watch the movie just for that.
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
Top Gun!
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Tarantino's take on Top Gun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfbjUmG8zGk
Precision in thought, concision in style, decision in life.
"That's MR.Styg..."
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 7, 2010 5:10 PM MST up reply actions
Well there is a third option no one seems to be thinking of
BM could very well chose to sit out next season, especially if the Broncos tender him a low ball offer. And honestly, I wouldn’t blame him for choosing to sit.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
doubt it. that would be a very, very, very bad idea for him. What if there is no football in 2011? His value would drop dramatically. If he has to play for the Broncos, he will make sure it is something like a 3 year deal.
by black_knight101 on Mar 7, 2010 2:37 PM MST up reply actions
I don't see that as a 3rd option
BM loves money too much to sit out a season. He’d make $3.2MM next year, which is a huge amount of money for him to walk away from.
In my opinion.
As well as...
it would severely hurt his checkbook on his next contract after next year….Players rarely can sit a year and come back anywhere near as good as they were.
And, like all players, he is staring down the barrle of no paycheck in 2011
So it would it would a particularly dumb thing to do just to prove his point. Which is exactly the reason BMarsh might choose it.
How about a 4th option
Nobody offers the Broncos a trade they’re willing to take.
An unhappy Marshall resigns himself to playing for Denver.
Bowlen chooses to offer him significantly more in a multi-year deal than the $3.2 million the tender guarantees him.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
I like this option best
I would hate to see him go for peanuts.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
I'm an incorrigible optimist who likes to hang onto best case scenarios as long as possible
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
i feel ya brother
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
by broncosmontana on Mar 8, 2010 1:15 AM MST up reply actions
i was just remembering the event in your sig...
This kid wants to win here. I bet he’s working right now. This is his chance to prove himself and carve out his place in the NFL and this is the time to do it. Think he’s feeling any pressure?
WOW, I would be.
Go Broncos!
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 8, 2010 1:33 AM MST up reply actions
It comes down to self inflated worth vs. real world worth.
Brandon felt he was worth a mega contract (20+ million guaranteed), and while I am not arguing his worth to us, when you see Boldin go for a 3rd and fourth you begin to reassess the market. Boldin has no off field or character issues and he goes over to Baltimore for that price, Brandon better pull his head out of his butt and realize most team view him = to Anquan Boldin in terms of talent. I really think, the first round tender was more for Brandon than anyone else.
“Ok you here you go Brandon you know we value you here in Denver, here is an option to see how much you are valued outside Denver.”
The tend er just smells of wake up call to me!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Spot on my friend!!
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Standing Pat
EJ, thanks for the insight. I for one as a Broncos fan feel we are a better team with Marshall then without him. However, I do believe if the Hawks sign Marshall to an offer sheet. Broncos will likely not match the offer and receive the #6 pick and than trade down for addtional picks, and draft the player they desire with the #11 pick. Using the #6 pick to secure additional picks will go a long way to improve the team, be it O-Line or D-Line. Trading down and picking up one of the WR’s would certainly be in the plan if Marshall is traded.
oc60
i don’t think there have been any reports about whether Brandon has been offered a contract this offseason
by black_knight101 on Mar 7, 2010 2:46 PM MST up reply actions
I doubt it
The offer the Broncos made last year is probably off the table. But it would probably be a starting point for discussions.
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
Hey Bradley,
Do you know where that story came from? I read it in the DP yesterday, but I haven’t seen it anywhere else. Anybody know who the source is, or if anybody else has reported it? $9.5M seems extremely high, regardless of guaranteed money.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Don't know about a story
I was just talking off the top of my head.
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
Considering the Broncos' long history...
…of taking care of players, I believe Marshall had that deal, with more up front (or otherwise guaranteed), in the bag until Week 17. That was vintage BM bonehead, and it probably didn’t just hurt him with the Broncos. It was like watching a horse have a race won, only to stumble 100 yards from the pole.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-- Oscar Wilde
by PredominantlyOrange on Mar 7, 2010 3:01 PM MST up reply actions
Something I agree with!
I’ve been very critical of the tender-decsion, but I’m happy to hear that the FO values him as at least a first-rounder. Things should get more competitive once UFA is picked clean. As an aised, can anybody remind me what’s going on with Antonio Bryant? Walter already signed, Boldin got traded, leaving Bryant as the only fairly high receiving target out there, correct?
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Keeping him would be the worst possible scenario
The Broncos tendered him as they did because they don’t want to pay him more than the 2.5 mill. That is what he gets if he stays. If you think he was disgruntled while still under contract, imagine how he will feel -and behave, if upon finally reaching (restricted) free agency, he gets little more than he did last year.
Wrong
If we have no suitors it is very likely we give him a 1 yr contract much higher than the $3.2. Probably moot as I expect him to be gone anyway
by OC Bronco Fan on Mar 7, 2010 11:30 PM MST up reply actions
Why?
Why would the Broncos pay him more than the market warrants? Sure, if they wish to sign him for long term, they might well decide to offer big money but if they can sign him for one year for 3.2, why would they decide to pay him more for the same one year period?
If this is true, which it should be
it is great news. The Broncos do not have to trade Marshall. They will not take a trade that does not help the team. Anything but a first round pick doesn’t really help the team (though who knows if the 6th pick will have more impact than the 40th)
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
Why wouldnt they trade Bmarsh
If they are willing to let him walk for a late first why wouldnt they entertain an offer for the Seahawks 14th overall.
Also if they arent going to sign him longterm shouldnt they at least consider something less than a 1st?
Whats the point of making a team go the tender route, as opposed to the trade route?
I think the point isn't so much that they aren't willing to trade....
But trying to put the 2nd rounder nonsense to sleep. Obviously if a 1st is involved I think they’d listen. If nobody signs him, though, we get him another year, and I would assume whatever the new CBA is will have something similar to a franchise tag that could be used after that. I’m thinking worst case scenario we get him 2 more years.
I get that, but by basically shutting the door on a trade; I think they are limiting the number teams willing to at least chat with the Broncos. And this is creating the perception that the Seahawks have most of the leverage. (Assuming the Broncos are strongly interested in moving him which may or may not be the case)
How about something where Bmarsh yeilds a 2010 high second, a 2011 second, and a conditional 2011 4th/5th?
I'm not sure they're shutting the door on a trade.....
I think maybe he’s going overboard there. I think the main point is we don’t wanna give him up for anything not including a 1st.
A 2nd and a 4th rd pick...
ASSUMPTION: Seattle will not give up their #6 pick
One #1 pick (#14) is NOT better than potentially:
Seattle – #40 & # 101
Tampa – #35 & #98
Players in the 35-40 range:
DL – Cody, Odrick, Price, C Thomas, Wooten
ILB – Spikes,
WR – LaFell, Benn
CB – McCourty
QB – McCoy
OL – Pouncey
Players in the 98-101 range:
DL – L Houston, Troup, A Jones,
ILB – Micah Johnson,
CB – J Arenas, Ghee
WR – Shipley, McCluster, Ford,
OL – Tennant
RB – Hardesty
So is it better to get the players at #14 (Morgan, Iupati, Bulaga, Pierre-Paul, D Williams) who we passed at #11 OR two players (one from each group) for Marshall?
I truly believe everyone is missing the boat on demanding a 1st rd pick. It seems like most just want to get it for the glamour of it. this is a deep draft.
Point value of the picks you mentioned
are a little more than half what the #14 is worth. Besides I would rather trade him to NE for the #22 than to Seattle for the #14. That was our pick. Trading BM for Phonzy just isn’t right.
the past is passed
in making personnel decisions, you cant be thinking about the origins of the picks. Jury is still out on A Smith and it doesnt matter. The point system is fine but reality has to set in at some point. Getting the 2 picks means more to this team than a #14.
by Orange and Blue on Mar 7, 2010 3:49 PM MST up reply actions
we can trade the #14 for two picks with more value than the two you just mentioned. much more value.
by black_knight101 on Mar 7, 2010 3:51 PM MST up reply actions
I dont see it this year.
I think this yr the point system is going to be especially irrelevant. the difference in players between 2 nd rd and 4th rd is negligible. Mayock says the point system is no longer relevant.
by Orange and Blue on Mar 7, 2010 4:06 PM MST up reply actions
2010's depth
Casserly and Mayock have been commenting on the depth of this year’s crop. I think they’re a little too enamored with this group but it’s clearly a great year to be re-stocking a 3-4 — which is what I’ve been saying all along.
I’d love to see us turn the Marshall trade (and Scheffler) into an assortment of picks in the 2-3 round range. And it may be even harder to pull off this trick than getting a #6 for Marshall — unfortunately. This is also why I don’t dismiss the idea of accepting a trade involving something other than the #6. It’s not the terms; but the bargaining position. I’d drool over two #2s & a #3 in this draft. And it’s not out of the question in point value even though chances are slim.
The bottom line is that it takes time to develop talent. I deplore the tendency to see a single individual as being more valuable than a group of solid contributers. There are few individuals whose contributions are exceptional but I’d prefer gaining a team with extraordinary depth and allow exceptional talents to emerge.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Mar 7, 2010 7:00 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
I still think that the bottom line here is that...
…the Broncos engineered this thing beautifuly, so that Marshall could get a feel for the interest he might get around the league. I think that everyone (from Pete Carroll to McD to you and me) agrees that Marshall would be easily worth a #6 draft pick, if not for his shenanigans. And to go along with that, he would be worth a top receiver contract if not for his shenanigans. As it is, Marshall is getting a lesson in humble pie, and he needs to realize that the only person crapping in his Easter basket is himself. He may very well end up realizing he has to play for the Broncos next year at the price of the Broncos tender, because the Broncos aren’t going to let him go for, say, a 4th round pick. If he plays well and stays out of trouble in 2010, teams could be more willing to pay the big bucks for him. But the huge Easter basket he wants is going to be on hold for another year. He has only himself to blame for that.
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
i dont think that will happen. I think if he is not tradded he will be offered a fair contract to stay in denver bowlen is a fair man and mcD wants brandon t-here
A person like BM
does not look at life that way. It is not his fault he is not getting offers, it’s the owners who opted out of the CBA and made him a RFA. Good comment though. I liked it.
I agree, Digger
That’s been Marshall’s problem. But I’m hoping he is learning something from this process. Kid’s gotta grow up sometime.
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
i'm sorry why does seattle have to give up their no 6 pick again?
can’t they just give our no 1 pick back to us?
Any news with anything?
It’s either been a slow day or reporters have taken the day off. We haven’t heard much on the Broncos front for 2 days now. Denver had better get back to work on Hadnot because there aren’t many options for C. You don’t want to leave it to the draft where anything can happen. Any word on Edwards? Very quiet today. Maybe there aren’t any FA’s worth going after for any team this year
Pashos is gone
Cleveland signed him today to a three year deal. I agree we need to work on Hadnot. He might be a perfect fit for our scheme. I don’t want to have to draft a C this year for there are other areas we need to address in the draft. I like Edwards and I hope his visit goes well here.
by atwaterlegend on Mar 7, 2010 4:13 PM MST up reply actions
Schefter just tweeted
Some interesting Brandon Marshall news ahead on Sportscenter at about 6:25 eastern. Please check it out….
Just in from Sportscenter.....
Bengals contemplated reaching out to Brandon Marshall.
So, Bengals are now in the running with the Seahawks.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
Clock is ticking on the Seahawks, now.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
sorry, couldn't watch Sportscenter in time.
You wrote “contemplated” as in past tense. Does that mean they are out of the running now?
No, pardon my verb tense. I was trying to type it as Schefter was saying it.
The report is that the Bengals “are contemplating” reaching out to Brandon.
I’m having a tough time forming correct sentences, today.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
They could have Marshall yesterday with the 21st pick
It should tell you something that they are wary to commit a late 1st-round pick.
http://www.fieldgulls.com/2010/3/7/1361096/seahawks-must-be-willing-to-walk
Apparently, Lombardi is now a “mouthpiece” for the the Broncos.
303
Here is Schefter's latest official tweet. (Question: Are "tweets" official?) Anyways....
While Denver’s restricted free-agent WR Brandon Marshall spent Sunday in Seattle, his name and future were being discussed in Cincinnati.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
Awesome. Maybe I can get an autograph?
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
all speculation
I think there is some legitimate information on which teams are interested but I wouldn’t want bank on anything yet. The Bengals and Bucs are the two that keep coming up. I expect he’ll make another visit somewhere but we’ll have to wait and see where. Teams want to look at the merchandise but it’s just window shopping until we find out otherwise.
no goats, no glory.
With as much weight as gets put on draft prospect interviews
I really view this “interest” as being akin to that feeling out process they go through. With that in mind, iI wonder how many of these teams have developed scouting reports on BM that include his interviews when he was looking to get drafted? Or better yet, personnel on staff that were there to see him back then? I would think someone who had seen him then, listened to him then, would be quite an asset to be listening to, seeing him now…
There's a big hard sun, beating on the big people, in the big hard world.
formerly Styg-like
by Jeremy Bolander on Mar 7, 2010 9:38 PM MST up reply actions
i'd love to see them then and now...
any sign of maturity growth would be hopeful.
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 7, 2010 9:55 PM MST up reply actions
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