Age a Concern on Denver's Defense??
Six of Denver’s starters last season __ Champ Bailey (31), Brian Dawkins (36), Andra Davis (31), Andre Goodman (31), Mario Haggan (30) and Renaldo Hill (31) – will be 30 or older by the start of the 2010 season. Bannan will be 31 next month, Williams will be 34 next month and Green is 31.
Not a big fan of Williamson, but it's a valid point. This defense is built to win now, before it is too late.
6 months ago
John Bena
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Wow
Ofcoarse they are built to win now but i think they all can play until there atleast 40 dawkins can probably play until he’s 45 bailey will slow down alittle and play saftey after a while and those are the main 2 who will play over 40 all until 40 i’m also not a big fan of williamson that comment pissed me off alittle
to knit pick...
i think Ayers and McBath will both be starting next year. So that does make us a little younger….
Agreed broncoboy
At least with Ayers. McBath could start in 2010 – but it’ll be harder because of who’s in front of him. Also, I think McBean will start at LE – letting Bannan rotate between end and tackle. I’m not sold on Williams being a starter. I think he’s a 20 snap a game guy. He could “start” but I don’t think he’ll get starter snaps with Fields, Baker and – at points – Bannan behind him.
the word “starter” should really not be applied to our defensive line. Each defensive lineman is probably going to have a specific role where they are in during specific scenarios.
by black_knight101 on Mar 9, 2010 9:03 PM MST up reply actions
Vets also bring strong leadership
Which was evident last year when B-Dawk called that players only meeting. I am not a big fan of Haggans or Hill either and would like to see Ayers and McBath get more PT. Although I would only be willing to part with Hill for pick because I believe that Haggans can play ST and is solid as a backup. Not that Hill wouldn’t be but I think that Nolan might like to have Hill in Miami with no Gibril Wilson. or some other team looking for depth. I really like Bruton and Barrett as well.
Porkchop.....
Isn’t this a strong/ smart way to build a dynasty? bring in very good vets to mentor younger talent and in 2-3 years you replace and let the vets retire or move on? It gives us a chance to start building from within (draft) and always have a replacement in place… rebuild rather than reload….. its how Pitt does it and oh no…. NE. Isnt that how we build a constant contender?
We are who we knew we were!
by bornorangenblue on Mar 9, 2010 8:18 PM MST reply actions 3 recs
Exactly,
although with the Steelers I’d say they are really good at selecting and developing players and keep them in the stable longer than some teams.
"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."
After thinking about it
We’re also set up nicely for the future, especially if we can get Rolando McClain in the draft. You’ve got a LB core of McClain, Williams, Dumervil, and Ayers. You have Phonz waiting in the wings at CB, along with Nate Jones though I anticipate 2011 to be a CB in round one of the draft. McBath and Bruton seem like they have starting potential in the NFL. Our D Line could use a youth infusion, but that probably will come in next year’s offseason because we already have six starting caliber guys up front.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
set up very well
And who knows if we get Haden and Smith improves to be a 2 CB maybe we place Champ on the block? Just a thought someone will make that trade… he is still good but we could get value out of him next year if there is no strike…. I dont really like the idea its just an option or passing
thought
We are who we knew we were!
by bornorangenblue on Mar 9, 2010 8:22 PM MST up reply actions
Eh.
He overlooks the rather methodical way that the franchise has set up a young, talented second tier behind most of those veterans; I am not concerned…
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
I agree
McDaniels has provided our young core with veteran leadership that can take time to develop and mature before being asked to start. It’s very hard to come into the league and make a contribution right away in your first year.
I think McDaniels wants to win now AND in the future. It has been stated many times here on MHR that it appears that Coach is following the Pats model of drafting for depth.
That said
You gotta love that your coach is trying to “win now”
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
PPS: How's this for a defense?
Bannan, Williams, Green
Dumervil, Williams, McClain (?), Ayers
Bailey, Hill, Dawkins, Goodman
That’s a nice looking group, plus we have great DL depth, decent LB depth, and unmatched secondary depth.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
It looks pretty good except....
the right side of the LBs. McClain has never played an NFL down and Ayers hasn’t shown he has starting material yet…..he may, I just didn’t really see it last year.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
Maybe Reid???
that would still give us baker, thomas, and williams at NT.
We are who we knew we were!
by bornorangenblue on Mar 9, 2010 9:18 PM MST up reply actions
i meant fields! my bad
We are who we knew we were!
by bornorangenblue on Mar 9, 2010 9:36 PM MST up reply actions
The jury's still out
at least on A Smith (subject of much debate here), though personally since I know how good he can be and was in college, still think he’ll be good. The surprises were how good McBath and Bruton were. The latter especially was a special teams standout. McBath projects to start within 1 to 2 seasons. So all in all I’d say solid, though grad is of course incomplete.
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants country, and damned proud of it.
Did any of them play much in five of six DB packages in 2009? And do you think its possible that you guys go pass rusher with your first pick?
Smith played nickel to start the season
He had a great game against Cincy, then struggled. Ty Law was the eventual answer. Neither Darcel McBath nor David Bruton played regularly, but McBath did get some snaps, usually in injury relief.
As far as the pass rusher, it’s unlikely with the #11 pick at this time, but no one really has a clear view of McD’s drafting thoughts or theory as to which position. Anything is possible, but ILB, NT, DE and OL are the most likely, in no particular order.
It all starts with the lines
WHat Emmett said
Anything is indeed possible, depending on who is available. But if they stay at 11 and that is indeed their first pick, I’d say OL or ILB are most likely at this point, given where they went in free agency. Could also see them going for someone like DE Derrick Morgan.
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants country, and damned proud of it.
Smith's sprained ankle really hurt him.
And I think it says more about the corners behind Smith that after he sprains an ankle they still try to play him and bring in an aging vet instead of promoting from within. People also point out that Tony Carter played in front of him, but that was late.
Course some will say Smith should have been healed by then, but those that know sprained ankles or anything about medical treatment know that the only way they heal is a few weeks of complete rest, especially Grade 2 or higher. Kinda hard to heal while still practicing and playing.
But that showed me a lack of faith in Jack WIlliams and Tony Carter (at least until he was ready late) and probably the biggest reason we brought in someone like Nathan Jones.
"You can make mistakes, but you are not a failure until you blame others for those mistakes." -John Wooden
Is it just me
but when I read this i have to say DUH! If McD comes in and tries to get young right away then he essentially has no chance of winning now. This will lead to his firing after 2 or 3 seasons. I think McD is doing a good job. He is adding some veterans right now while the younger guys enhance their skills. When the vets retire then are young guys step in and perform after years of studying the playbook and learning under the vets.
Any OL updates
Is there any free agents the Broncos are looking at considering Hadnot is now a longshot?
LIke I said...
Not a fan of Williamson….
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Agree to an extent
I think the players Denver picked up are all good players. I forgot if it was Bear or HT that spoke of a need to stagger ages at a position.
This is who I think will make the 53 man roster and thier ages.
DL Williams 34, Bannon 31, Green 31, Fields 28, McBean 25, Thomas 24, and Baker 22.
LB Davis 31, Haggan 30, Williams 27, Reid 27, Doom 26, Ayers 24, Woodyard 23, Draftee 21-24
CB Bailey 31, Goodman 31, Jones 27, Smith 24, Carter 23.
S Dawkins 36, Hill 31, Barrett 25, McBath 24, Bruton 22.
Truthfully it looks like a good balance of age and youth
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
by 3nS on Mar 9, 2010 9:35 PM MST up reply actions 2 recs
Oops
Forgot about Larson 26
... if you have a belief, you will tend to find things that support it. But if you have a prejudice, you’ll move heaven and earth to maintain it. BroncoBear
by 3nS on Mar 9, 2010 9:41 PM MST up reply actions
I could see McBean Thomas & Baker
being our starting Dline in the future. Especially when they have the players McD just signed in front of them to mentor them. Imagine what Williams can teach Baker who is huge dude also. Some people have mentioned Baker as a possible cut in TC but you do not cut players with his potential when they at 22 years old. Look at the Elite NT in this league and they are all over the age of 27. Dline players take much longer to mature in the NFL. Especially at the NT position. Baker has a ton of talent and he showed flashes against the Cardinals starting Offensive line in the preseason. He also stayed after practice like twice a week all year for 30 min to 1 hour to get extra coaching from Nunnelly. The guy has talent but him staying after practice shows he has the heart and desire to get better. I believe I read somewhere after he was drafted that he was very surprised and pissed that he did not get drafted. He choose the Broncos because he saw it as his best opportunity to get into the rotation quicker. He also said he wants to punish the other 31 teams that passed on him the entire draft. I think McD did the right thing with him last year by not playing him. He needed to learn the playbook and get coached up by the best 3-4 Dline coach in the business. I am almost positive he will contribute in a big way this year
by gnarlybroncodude on Mar 10, 2010 12:24 AM MST up reply actions
I hate the man
I mean it seams like everything he says about the broncos is out of grief………you got fired from the denver post for a reason you are shite as they say in england……………
One thing he keeps saying that pisses me off is he is almost 100 percent sure BMarsh is leaving……well okay if you are where are you facts porkchop…………
Mile High Salute
by TommyTSlice on Mar 10, 2010 12:51 AM MST up reply actions
Tubbs "Porkchop" Williamson
I can picture him on a big porch in either cutoff overalls or a Col. Sanders suit with a rag for sweat and a jug of sweet tea……. how did he get a job reporting sports?!?
We are who we knew we were!
by bornorangenblue on Mar 11, 2010 5:39 PM MST up reply actions
McD wasn't kidding
when he said we’re not rebuilding and he wants to win now……the moves of the last 2 FA periods indicated a win now mentality
Well I am conflicted.
It is great that the team is trying to fill the holes that this team has on defense and I love that the Broncos are trying to stay aggressive. I am just not over the moon over the pickups. I know that the way things are teams are just not letting young talented defensive players just walk and if they do they are not going to be playing for anything resembling the minimum, so the Broncos have to try to find the best pieces it find to fit its vision. I am just worried that these are pieces that will shine in September and fade in December, especially if some of the talented fat men being brought in are fragile.
All Hail St. Harold, Patron Saint of Designated Hitters!
yeah another notch up in the quality of our pick ups would be nice but the quantity is there. McX did very well last year!
Still waiting for the Dawkins type move!
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 9, 2010 9:13 PM MST up reply actions
Yea
I am also intrigued by some of the youth in the wings (mainly Chris Baker). That being said I feel that brining in solid age is always good, and the broncos still have the draft every year to sprinkle in the 1st , 2nd ,3rd, 4th year players in the “wiley” verteran group. And again if Mcdaniels rotates these verterans in and out of the game frequently, I believe they can stay fresh for another few years, and they can be great teachers to the younger players on the team.
wha( other choice did McD have?
Understand that McD had to do everything in his power to build a competitve defense LAST year. Denver replaced 7 starters last year and basically replaced the entire 2nd team defense. A lot of Denver’s ‘08 defense spent time or continues to be out of football all together. Denver was gawd awful. You’d have to be a fool to say Denver’s defense wasn’t better in ‘09 partially (or mostly) because they had better talent than the year before. 2010 is a continuation of the plan from 2009. Denver is still upgrading talent enough to be competitive with the upper tier offenses and running games in the league. They have a way to go, but the only way to go from the 2008 defense (the most embarrasing defense Denver’s ever put on the field) was to bridge the gap with veteran players who are a known quantity and can step in on day 1 and play immediately. There isn’t enough high level/known quantity level talent in the draft or previously (2008) on the roster to have the talent level it takes to compete with the best offenses in the league. Denver can draft dfensive players who, ideally, in the next 2-4 years, can take over for the veterans. Denver will draft more players on defense next month in addition to drafting players that can help their offense to put more than 2 TD’s on the board evey game. Maybe Bill can enlighten us on how a coach can, in 12 months time, completely rebuild a historically, epically, cetegorically bad and untalented and undercoached defense and NOT focus on bringing in veterans, known quantities, and locker room leaders.
by super7 on Mar 9, 2010 9:10 PM MST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Exactly
Of course age is of some concern, but great players at their peak are expensive. Talented players at the start of their decline are affordable so you can get experience and depth, and may be better mentors for 1st and 2nd year players.
"My job description is to win football games. I'm a hard worker. I'm not flashy by any means, but my job is to play football and win and I plan to do that." Kyle Orton
enh
This isn’t a concern at all unless the presence of these veterans is used as an excuse to not build future talent through the draft. Like, if the Broncos started trading draft picks for thirty-year-olds, then I’d worry. (What the Broncos should do is trade a couple of prime or late-20s players for draft picks… to invest more for the future.)
Im not concerned.
He is doing what the patriots have been doing for years. Filling needy areas with good vets and then he drafts young guys who will eventually replace them in the future. Example, last year signed goodman dawkins and hill. Then drafted Phonso McBath and Bruton. So we may see some of that this year aswell.
I'm guessing that isn't a Pat specific recipe...
I think every team essentially does that when necessary.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
It's not that much of an issue.
We have, and will draft, more young players who will take over when the veterans are ready to move on. If we draft a defensive player (McClain) in the 1st rd. this year, there is a good chance he will start right away. I think Ayers will start over Haggan this year, and I think McBath has a good chance to beat out Hill as a starter. Plus, Bannan and Green are both 30, soon to be 31, which is not that old. With good conditioning they could play a good 4 years each. Plus, they will be in a rotation to keep them fresh. These guys just need to fill up space, much like 24 hour news channels.
My biggest concern heading into...
…2010 is that the secondary will start to break down. You never know with DB’s, so here’s hoping McBath, Bruton, Smith and Carter are ready to ball a little if needed.
Joe Haden in 2010, baby!!!…dude might have run himself right into Denver’s lap at the combine. If not, Devin McCourty should be our #2.
"We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars."-- Oscar Wilde
by PredominantlyOrange on Mar 9, 2010 9:47 PM MST reply actions
Mayock on Haden
Mayock’s latest is that he’s not worried about the poor 40 times after reviewing his tapes.
I don’t think it’s necessary to find a CB in the 1st but it would be nice to find one early ( i.e., 1 – 4). Neither Bailey nor Goodman are done yet, and Nathan Jones is still an emerging player. I take a somewhat different approach on this subject; I believe that the age of our CBs means that the 3rd round would be a good slot because the draftee would have to be a reserve for two years. And there’s a number of prospects in the 2nd and 3rd who are suitable future starter material. Oddly, I regard it as too soon to be drafting a CB in the 1st. I’d feel comfortable if we make the right choice, such as Kyle Wilson in the 1-2 range, but I don’t think we need to overreact based on the ‘age number.’ I think it’s more a question of having appropriate depth. Many teams carry as many as 6 CBs, so I wouldn’t mind seeing a slightly larger target number at CB.
no goats, no glory.
I agree Colinski
However Haden is an elite talent. I believe he is going to be the next shutdown corner in the NFL. If he is there at 11 it will be very hard for McX to pass on him. The 40 times of CB has dropped corners out of the top 10 and even the 1st round before. Now I saw a few Florida games this year and there is not way he is a 4.5 guy with pads on. He was a shadow to every WR he covered this year. The Kid is a stud. He would come in right away and take the nickel spot. In year two he could take over for Champ if we do not resign him. The kid is a stud and he would be very hard to pass up on. Also Mayock says this but I have seen a few other people say the 40 time and combine workout probably dropped him out of the top 10
by gnarlybroncodude on Mar 10, 2010 12:31 AM MST up reply actions
he may have dropped into our pocket
I’ve had the trio of McClain, Bryant & Haden at the top of our BB since December (ignoring the higher picks). I’ve added Trent Williams and Bulaga since then but that’s about it. I’d take Suh, Okung, etc., but it’s not a choice we’ll have.
It’s not a comment about Haden but about whether we can fill CB later. And we can. CB is one of the positions that’s better populated, and there are a number of CBs that — IMO — would work out fine. I’ve liked Haden since last year but I haven’t seen enough of him to have formed an attachment. Haden looked bad in the 40 but he fared very well in the drills. And, of course, all that game footage is what really counts.
no goats, no glory.
If Trent Williams can play Guard then I say yes.
I can’t see paying him 11th pick money to sit behind Clady and Harris though. Same goes for Bulaga, but I think he will be gone by 11.
by bfree2bronc on Mar 10, 2010 12:12 PM MST up reply actions
good question
DraftTek lists it as a second position but they’re hardly authoritative. Usually, from my understanding, an OT could move over. Other than being too tall (and he’s not), there isn’t a good reason he couldn’t. He might not want to because it pays less but that’s another issue. His speed helps greatly, and his fluidity as an athlete bodes well, too.
I’ve tried to impress upon people that the best OLs are almost always going to be at OT if they’re at all capable of playing that position. Some of the OLs are suited to play in the interior, although it’s a bit of a waste to use them there because their greatest value to the team is in their pass protecting ability. I think there’s sufficient justification for selecting Williams and moving him to OG. Backup OT could be part of his usage but it would be in addition to starting at OG.
It’s seems to be a pretty good out-of-the-box solution to rebuilding our OL, and it’s in the vein of the T/G solution that I’ve mentioned previously. However, there’s room for objections since it would be like drafting an OG early, which is rarely done.
no goats, no glory.
While all those 30+ players may look bad,
it really isn’t. I mean it’s not like these players suck. They are solid players with tons of talent to go along with the plenty of young talent we have on this team. You have to have the right combination of players on a team and McDaniels is doing just that.
Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
I am not worried about age being a factor.
So long as we use a rotation especially on the defense so guys are staying fresh.
I am concerned about the OL. Looking at the guys on the roster currently, I am wondering how this is going to work out. McD is looking for players 300-315 who can run block and pass block. They have to be agile on their feet. I am not sure that the guys other than Clady, Kuper and Harris. We may see Olsen and Fry in the 2 remaining positions. If they work out well, we may see OL people drafted 3-4 round and below. If not, I look for 1st and 2nd round picks used for this. Since the type that we want are in short supply, we may replenish our line with picks – maybe even 3 picks to cover any needs including the possibility of Harris being ready late Sept-early October or not at all. OL guys have to play together for awhile to attain the continuity needed in moving in the right direction on blocking assignments.
I like being inspired by the talk of Haden and McClain. These guys are good and I think would contribute sooner than later. Actually both – players with a bright future.
For the DL, I doubt we see much more this year even in our draft picks. We have our 7 person rotation and more. Very good crew. I couldn’t have dreamt this good a crew. However, next draft or in the UFA this year, some guys will be selected to develop. then we will have the new guys rotating in as the vets get a deserved retirement. This applies to the secondary as well.
I don't think this was prepare for the future kind of thing they paint it as obviously
It’s the quickest way to take a nearly empty defensive depth chart where shanny left it, to a top notch defense in the league. Hopefully we take some core guys in the first and second on D and develop them for when these guys go.
by RockyMountainHigh on Mar 10, 2010 4:18 AM MST reply actions
That’s why they should build around the team in the draft. I say if…big if…they get another 1st rd pick for Marshall, they spend their 2 #1 picks on these two guys. Roland McClain and Taylor Mays if available and another ‘best avail’ DT later in the rounds. Thoughts?
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by the new Bradfather on Mar 10, 2010 3:46 PM MST reply actions
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