Food for thought
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 1, 2010 1:26 PM MDT
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PrintThere have been some great posts coming up here on MHR which is why I love this place! To be very blunt and straight forward some of it got me thinking! Who fits in our system and who doesn't? Guys like Eddie Royal have been talked about as trade bait. Champ with Age people think DJ doesn't fit the system. Shipping out Doom because he cant guard against the run. I don't agree with every thing posted but it definitely gets me thinking and watching tape. Here are some thoughts!
Eddie Royal does not fit this system?
I am not so sure about that! Eddie was put in a position to succeed his first year as most people focused on Brandon Marshall. Eddie's weaknesses we masked by his ability to be under rated! After one year of film most coaches said "This kid can not handle the press coverage" and bumped him at the line! It takes a while to get used to people bugging you off the snap! Eddie has had a year to learn routes and probably some great coaching on how to beat the press! I think we should have a wait and see approach to Eddie.
Champ Bailey is a risk because of Age?
Welcome to the Denver Broncos Defense my friend. We have signed a veteran squad to help teach our younger players. With the assumption that 8 of our starters on defense will be 30+ at the start of the season most people assume old and decrepit! I have to say I think that while speed is something brains are by far more valued! I would rather have a guy who is in the right position at the right time than a guy who can GET to the place after the fact. I think this is the time to really see what a SMART football team can do!
D.J. Williams does not fit our system on defense?
DJ is a typical Miami Athlete. He plays kind of like I play sports, based on physical ability. In January I rolled my ankle and have had to since learn how to play Basketball, Football, Volleyball etc. from a smart presence rather than a athletic one! It's hard to do and I still struggle at times. However I realized how much I relied on my ability to "get there" rather than the ability to "be there" that is something that may be slowing down DJ too!
Knowshon Moreno is a Bust?
I cant say that. He led rookies in rushing from behind a useless line! Sure he didn't have the home runs speed or game breaking ability his first year, but as the game "slows down" for him I can see KM becoming a BIG threat in the way you would see Derrick Ward! So we get a guy like Toby Gerhart in the draft who can be our Bulldozer and run the two at tandem! I wouldn't mind in the least on that one!
Alphonso Smith is a Bust?
I don't agree here either. While like McGeorge I don't like the fact that we traded a first for him I don't think he is a bust based on one year of play. Yes he was replaced by a CFA Practice squad guy and we brought in someone who was 100 years old to play the position too but that doesn't mean he was a bust. The average rookie struggles his first year. Some of them go one to be great players. The draft is a gamble. Sometimes a highly touted prospect drops (Brady Quinn) and a team JUMPS at the chance to have them only to see them fizzle. Sometimes a guy plays to his draft position (Peyton Manning). This is why evaluation is so important. I think that given time we may see what coach sees in Phonzy!
That's all I got folks thanks for reading and comments!
GO BRONCOS!!!
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Great points
Agree with how you put most of these ideas, especially the points about Moreno and Smith.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
Thank you
I just wanted to be a little level headed
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Thank you
I just wanted to be a little level headed
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
I went with #16
because that’s like #8 TWICE! :) They tie with left handed interceptions, but gave Plummer the edge for going to the AFC championship game and Hair/Beard mountain main in case of tie break. I’ll vote Orton once he takes the Broncos to the SB and wins.
I'm glad we had this talk. -- TJ Johnson
Hey I voted Plummer too
no worries
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Plummer is winning so far??
Great locker room guy, got us far once, but c’mon. Shanny’s spending 4 years trying to get the most out of this guy (not using the whole playbook) waisted alot of time passing on the oppurtunities to get an elite QB. I’m not thrilled with #8 either but I sure like int #. The AFC champ game with Plummer was a great example of what we put up with. Two huge int’s and two “deer caught in headlights” moments by #16.
Of the three who do you take?
just saying in my Books I got Plummer! Wasn’t a fan of the benching and dude lets be honest the “savior” JC did nothing more than The snake did!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
JC did way less than Jake
they had one same problem though… they could bring you back in the 4th if it was close, but could throw up some stinker games. Orton is more steady and would expect a more favorable vote for him after a year at least.
I'm glad we had this talk. -- TJ Johnson
by BroncoInExile on Apr 1, 2010 3:25 PM MDT up reply actions
I think the poll speaks volumes about Orton and Plummer
they could both really pave the road for you and Orton led us on a 4th Q drive vs NE so I think he can do it. ALL Quarterbacks can throw up stinkers! Manning throw 6INTs and still manages to win the game i dont give manning the credit there!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Thank you sir!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 1, 2010 11:10 PM MDT up reply actions
The poll results are absurd. Orton lead us to one 8-8 season with a monumental collapse where he himself was playing at or worse at than how he was playing the rest of the season. And for a guy that is supposed to win home games. Well we were 4-4 at home in 2009 and two of those losses were at the hands of AFC West foes that are drafting in the Top 8 overall because they sucked so bad in 2009. Our O was ranked something like 20th overall in 2009 and we really had trouble scoring points in several games this season. Best QB since Elway? Are you guys crazy?
Jake Plumber QB’d the winning Denver in a ton of football games. We were 10-6 or 13-3 (always playoff bound) in most of his time as our starter.
Cutler QB’d the #2 (in yards) offense in the NFL in 2008. If it was not for having the least talented D and D coordinator in the NFL, we’d have been playoff bound in 2008. But Cutler didn’t even come close to Jake in terms of making his team successful.
Back to Orton. You guys do realize that it was our O that was actually the biggest problem in 2009. It was the O that held us back from reaching the playoffs. It’s mind boggling that so many here have already crowned Orton as a better QB than Jake or even Cutler. Do you guys think Eddie Royal, Scheff, Stokely, even Clady, Kuper (the entire O-line) whom all regressed in 2009, feel the same way?
May I ask one simple question… Why vote Orton and based on what?
In my opinion.
From a guy who voted Plummer
I agree with assessments sometimes it is about leadership. In the case of being classy and a leader of your team I can see why the poll is set the way it is. Did I root for Jay? aboso-friggin-loutely! Did I call him out? yes I did, much in the way you have called Orton and McDaniels out! I didnt ask who was the best QB since Elway I asked who would you rather have on your team! That may not speak to their actually QB ability in some voters minds, it may speak to their leadership work ethic etc.
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Nice points Jon
Dont necessarily agree with the useless line part but I understand what you’re getting at….
What kills me though is our line last year was still better then 80% of other teams in the league and their RB’s managed to get yards. I would LOVE to see Stephen Jackson running behind last years Oline.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
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now to be fair
the line wasn’t horrible but when you have your two interior guys like BH and CW eaten alive by one on one defenders and the LB’s get a free shot at your RB how do you expect him to perform? Not saying Moreno was without blame but it is kind of hard to break for a few yards when the defender almost beats you to the ball
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Jake Plummer was easily the best QB after Elway.
My strike on the Phonz is preemptive. I’m calling bust before the bust. He will bust though. He just doesn’t possess the physical skills to be an every down NFL CB. After the season , he said he was caught off guard by how fast, quick and strong everyone was in the NFL. Well, the real problem here is that he isn’t those things other NFL players are. By the end of 2010, I honestly believe most Bronco fans will feel the same way about the Phonz as we already do about Jarvis Moss. I hold out different levels of hope for every other 2010 draft picks (surprisingly – I hold out a lot of hope for Quinn). I just don’t have any for the Phonz. I don’t see this guy proving out or proving me wrong.
Silver lining is that I don’t see Denver ever trying that sort of trade again… I hope so anyway.
In my opinion.
After the season , he said he was caught off guard by how fast, quick and strong everyone was in the NFL.
Isn’t that what all NFL rookies say at the end of their first season?
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
Probably
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
I dont know that they did or didnt!
I do remember Royal saying thaqt the game is a different speed though
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Moreno said it...
He was having trouble keeping up with the speed of the game. It will slow down for him, but he needs to find a way to break tackles.
i remember the interview now
a link would help anyone have one!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 1, 2010 11:44 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't know whether Smith will make it.
but
Highly-drafted cornerbacks often take three or even four years to develop. Rashean Mathis and Corey Webster broke out in season four; Nnamdi Asomugha never intercepted a pass until season four.
http://espn.go.com/blog/nfcnorth/post/_/id/10615/lions-start-bulking-up-on-cbs
I’m willing to give him some time.
by asdqqq on Apr 2, 2010 9:21 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Asomugha still doesn’t get picks.
Some rookies do develop faster than others. But some rookies never develop period. Phonz Smith struck me as the latter since he doesn’t have the physical tools to burn up this league. He doesn’t even possess the quickness to be a decent nickel CB.
In my opinion.
I'm curious whether
your evaluation of Smith as slow is based just on his combine 40 time or an independent evaluation of his game performance. The combine last year ran pretty slow, and he’s had times anywhere from 4.36 to 4.58 times generally. Every scouting report of his game film that I saw on him called him quick and was only concerned about his size.
And just to be clear, I am not trying to be pro-Smith, just anti-rushing to judgment on young cornerbacks because the track record of players at his position seems to warrant giving them time.
Just to provide a little more info
40 times of notable cornerbacks at the combine last year:
Darius Butler 4.45
Vontae Davis 4.49
Malcolm Jenkins 4.53
Alphonso Smith 4.50
Sean Smith 4.47
I didn’t really see anything to judge Smith’s straight line speed.
What I saw was a guy that lacked the quickness to hang with WRs that were cutting much faster than he could react.
It’s his lack of quickness that alarms me far more than anything else. If a CB can’t break on WRs cuts and such, he’s got no future in the NFL.
In my opinion.
My evaluation of Smith is entirely Bronco game performance reviews. Seeing subpar WRs from Oakland easily shake the Phonz was very disheartening. He showed me nothing in 2009 to suggest he has the skill set to excel in the NFL.
I thought he was a much better prospect in May of 2009 than I do after watching him struggle in preseason and the regular season. His signature play in the Seattle preseason game came after he was toasted and was able to run back and deflect a miserably underthrown bomb. Tony Carter flashed more in three quarters of NFL football than Smith did in 20 games(pre and regular) last season.
In my opinion.
I appreciate the analysis
I don’t know enough at this point to make my own independent analyses of players for the most part.
To the extent I can, I’d agree that we didn’t get much out of Smith last year, and there is no indication that we can count on getting much this year, but in the long term I remain optomistic just because of other cornerback’s success at developing over time.
I’d feel better about his long term outlook if he were young. Sad thing is, the Phonz turns 25 pretty soon. He is OLD for being a rookie.
In fact, he is older the Royal and even Marcus Thomas or Comartie Rodgers.
Age is one reason I’m so on board with drafting Pouncey. Kid is 20 years old and still has a world of upside. He could be our starting C for the next 15 years.
In my opinion.
Agreed
Even with being 25, he still has 7-10 years left, he may not be the best, but i am sure he will continue to improve, his problem isn’t so much physical as still gaining a better understanding of the depth of the NFL passing game.
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
I disagree. I think the problem with The Phonz is primarily physical or a lack there of in his case. He was an excellent player in the ACC when WRs were not as fast, strong or quick.
Once the NFL players were physically superior to Smith, he had no answer. This is exactly what I think we’ll see prove out next season when he doesn’t take the next step as guys like Ayers, McBath and Moreno (hopefully Quinn) do.
In my opinion.
Partly true
But if Brady Quinn hasn’t adapted yet, I don’t think he will, unless you mean Richard Quinn, then yes I agree
My emptiness says it doesn't care.
I agree on the silver lining
but I dunno about the assessment. I think we agree to disagree here. I think Phonz will turn out to be an average starter! That isnt high praise but man the P Mannings and John Elways of this world are so rare!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
I’d rather we had the 14th pick so we could take Pouncey. I felt the same way when me made the trade last season. That trade made Denver worse in the long run.
In my opinion.
I am not sure yet
but i think it was a bad idea to trade the pick regardless of if we had drafted anyone else too!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Me too. There was not one player we could have taken at that pick that would have made sense. It was a terrible idea to trade an unknown #1 for a 2nd round pick. PERIOD.
In my opinion.
its funny though
the only coach who gets flamed for it is McDaniels! Carolina and SF have done this in recent memory and they didnt get flamed!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
What? That is nonsense.
Those teams got grilled for those trades! In fact, Bobby Betherd got fired in San Diego for doing this exact same thing in the 1990s.
The 49ers ended up giving away a Top 10 pick (J Mayo) in their trade. Fortunately for them, Joe Staley turned into a decent player, but the trade was still widely panned.
The Panthers were taking crap all season, but since they played well in the end, they only gave away the 17th pick. It was a nightmare for them in the early part of the season when it looked like they had traded away a Top 10 pick for Everett Brown.
If you are not, you need to read more than MHR to get your football news.
In my opinion.
thanks
my brother is a niners fan and has some good stuff i do read more than MHR but do not hear most pundits grill those teams like they grill us!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
The pundits grille outside the confines of Dove Valley.
John Clatyon and Peter King each spent a few thousand words last season ripping the Panthers for the Everette Brown trade.
The 49ers got roasted as the Pats took Mayo.
If Smith had played well, I think most would have just moved on, but his poor player vs Staley or Everett Brown turned up the heat. Smith had a terrible rookie season, which did McD no favors.
We could be using that pick to take Pouncey after taking someone like Haden or McClain at 11. Or draft Haden and McClain.
All these guys are vastly superior prospects to Smith.
In my opinion.
yes as prospects they are better rated
but as a Bronco fan I have to hold out hope he can at least play #2 in this league! I guess i gotta wait another year to see if he even has the potential!
I would have loved two picks in this years 1st round but its like complaining about politics. we cant jump back in time and hit mcdaniels on the head and say “dude wait a year for youre CB”
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
I want Smith to succeed
I would love to see him be a starter, but in my mind he can’t go any higher than a #2 CB and to me that’s a low ceiling when we’re trading away future first round picks. Side note did they know this years draft was going to be deep last year or did a lot of Juniors just decide to come out? I’m curious I really have no idea. When I heard we traded out of the first my immediate thought was Rey Maualuga. 5’9" sadly just looks tiny lining up on 6’2, 6’3 receivers and I know it’s not all about size, but still.
Academe, n.: An ancient school where morality and philosophy were taught. Academy, n.: A modern school where football is taught.
Fans don't boo nobodies.
with the owners opting out
most people figured a lot of jrs would come into this draft
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 3, 2010 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks!
I thought there would be a lot coming out I just wasn’t sure if owners would be banking on a percentage or if he really thought there would be nothing better coming out this year and that having the phonz in the league one year would be worth giving up what well realistically wasn’t going to be any worse than a top 20 pick. I’ve heard people say it was a money move which I guess makes sense
Academe, n.: An ancient school where morality and philosophy were taught. Academy, n.: A modern school where football is taught.
Fans don't boo nobodies.
You hope to get better than average starter when you make a 1st round pick. Those guys are drafted to be stars or at the least…. good starters.
That guys like you already have him pegged as an average starter is a bad sign about his future.
In my opinion.
We will see
I would take an average starter in this league vs. a less than average starter!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
With just a little homework and luck, you can draft average starters in round 5 of most NFL drafts.
In my opinion.
Care to back that up?
What percentage of 5th round picks are starters? How many starting cornerbacks were drafted in the 5th round?
Not that you can’t do it, but I think it takes more than a little homework and luck.
Let’s take a quick spin around the Denver Bronco roster.
Hill and Goodman are midround picks that are average to above average CB starters. Elvis is a mid round super star, Andra Davis was a mid round pick, as was McBean, Haggen and Fields. Kuper is a 6th rounder, Hamilton was a long time starter as a 4th. Nalen was a 6th round gem. Marshall is super star as a forth. Orton was a 4th and he’s average to slightly above for a starting QB.
I love the mid rounds of the draft and it is why I get fussy when McD haphazardly trades away those picks for guys like LeKevin Smith. How teams draft between rounds 3-6 is IMO, a key to long term success in the NFL.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Apr 2, 2010 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great anecdotal evidence
but doesn’t really address the question, anecdotes are often misleading. Sure it happens. But I bet not very often.
I just think it takes a lot of effort and a considerable amount of luck.
I mean that’s like saying with a little homework and a little luck, you can draft a pro bowler in each of the first three rounds every year. Just because at least one pro bowler probably comes out of each of the first three rounds every year doesn’t mean that any one franchise can get one in each round every year even if they do a lot of work and are very lucky, let alone put in a little homework and get a little lucky.
I understand getting the info and doing the work is hard.
Here‘s a list of defensive backs drafted in the 5th round. Do you see a lot of starting cornerbacks (cornerbacks because we are talking about a cornerback here, I suspect starting cornerbacks are much harder to find in later rounds than starting safetys) on there, even below average starters? I’m seriously asking, I don’t have enough knowledge of league personnel to be able to tell. None of the names are jumping out at me.
Cool link!
I probably shouldn’t have said a round. You can get starters in the later rounds (Bethea, James Sanders, DeMarcus Faggins, Victor Harris, Brandon Carr, Zackary Bowman, Brandon McDonald, Dawan Landry, Gerald Sensabaugh, Gibril Wilson & Jermaine Phillips) were all recent 5th and 6ht round picks.
But your point about them more liekly being S or something like LG is valid. There is a higher % of these guys becoming late round starters than DEs and QBs.
In my opinion.
here I agree
I love the mid rounds of the draft and it is why I get fussy when McD haphazardly trades away those picks for guys like LeKevin Smith. How teams draft between rounds 3-6 is IMO, a key to long term success in the NFL.
I like this one here!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
With just a little luck you can get a guy like TD
but it doesnt always happen
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Eddie Royal
I don’t know if I really agree with that assessment, I am sure he faced his share of press coeverage 2 years ago also, the difference is not whether Royal can beat press coevrage or not, the difference is what routes he is running and being able to strech the field vertically, last year’s offense did not strech the field and people were able to stack the line and know that the chnace of getting burned deep was minimal, so they could play tight up close, and therby accept that they would see a short pass and make a play or tackle the guy right away. If you look at the difference between the New England and Denver offense it is that vertical threat, teams don’t want Randy Moss scorthing them, so they play back and try to contain the underneath stuff which opens up holes for guys like Wes Welker. BM was able to have some success because one he could basically be a more physical target and muscle the CB out of the way for the most part and still catch the 5 yard slant. Royal lacks height and size so he needs to be able to create space by having longer routes if players are playing close to the line. If Orton or Quinn are the QB, Royal will continue to struggle because I don’t think McDaniels trusts either of them to throw the long ball with any consistency.
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by Broncoman on Apr 1, 2010 4:56 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I see the point
but I dont know if I agree!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Plummer?
Very interesting… I have always liked Plummer. I remember a lot of Broncos fans wanting him out of town. Mmm, the grass is not always greener.
I was never one of them!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 1, 2010 11:10 PM MDT up reply actions
not saying you were...
Just find it funny how things work in the fan world. My brother and I are both Broncos fans, and he always go’s along with every move we make. I question a lot of moves we make, and to be frank, right now am very concerned about the state of our team. Jake was fun to watch and played with a lot of heart. That Championship game was not his fault. He made some mistakes, but he also had the flu. THere were plenty of other players that dropped passes and made mistakes. Thanks for the posting. The best thing about Plummer now is that I was able to buy his jersey for $20 on ebay!
I have an authentic Plummer which he signed
I loved how accessible he was to the fans! Elway Davis Sharpe McCaffrey Smith and Plummer are my jerseys that are authentic!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 1, 2010 11:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice collection Jon!
"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."
Jake to Tampa trade
Jake is one of those QB’s that everyone loves to hate. I have been living in the Tampa area for the last 6 years. My buddy is a huge Bucs fan. All year long he talked smack about Plummer, then when Shanny wanted to trade him to Tampa, Jake was the next Tom Brady. That dude is out there playing Handball somewhere, just lovin’ life!
he did his time and loved it until it wasnt fun anymore!
cant ask much more than that
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Apr 1, 2010 11:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Yup those things do make you think.
I had another thought on this from an averagae fan point of view, at least I’d like to think it is from that view. When things aren’t going well or as good as expected, fans have a tendancy to give up on players, be it inexperience, age or perceived talent. So I beleive that figures into how fans feel about these players as well. Just my opinion though.
And I do like Orton, but give me the Snake, he seemed to be one of those players who had the it factor and he was fun to watch as well.
"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."
I agree with all of this
in society when something goes wrong you look for one or some people to blame! This last season was a total overhaul and we went 8-8 I am surprised! now I excpect more this year but man with what we had im shocked we werent 6-10
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
the 6-0 start did that
we played good ball in those games! not perfect but good.
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
Yup that 6-0 start
was great and not so great at the same time. There were a couple (but only a couple) of those games were we played pretty solid football, but you could see the problems very clearly in others.
"A great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do" Walter Gagenot
"Hope sees the invisible, feels the intangible and achieves the impossible."
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