The Importance of "The Trench"
by Tim Lynch on Apr 18, 2010 11:30 AM MDT
in MHR Broncos History Lesson
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PrintThere is no more important place on the football field in terms of winning games than in the trenches. Full backs, Tight Ends, Tackles, Guards, Centers, Ends, Nose Tackles, Linebackers - this is where games are won and lost and, indeed, Championships are won and lost.
The massive knee-jerk reaction by a vast majority of Broncos fans - outside of MHR - believe that the Broncos absolutely must draft a wide receiver in the first round. The single biggest need on the football team is for a player that will touch the ball 5-8 times a game.
Never mind the fact that the Broncos lost the battle in the trenches week in and week out in the final ten games last season. The interior of the offensive line was blown up by opposing defenses, while the interior part of the teams defense was constantly shredded for big gains in the running game.
Weaknesses that not even the all-powerful Brandon Marshall and his record setting 21 catch game could overcome, nor Kyle Orton's 400+ yard day against the Chiefs in the season finale. Skill players can run amok all day long, but its the team that wins and loses in this league.
For my purposes today, I will be listing the trench rankings for every single participant in the Super Bowl since 1983. I am sure we can all agree that prior to that great year the game was different than it is today. For obvious reasons, I chose 1983 - it's a very important year in Broncos mythology.
On to the chart!
First let me explain how I ranked the trenches of each team and why. For both offense and defense there are just two stats that really show how well the lines performed in both the passing game and running game. For offense, I took the ranking for sacks allowed and average gain per rushing attempt. For defense, I took the ranking for sacks made and average gain per rushing against. Pretty simple. I wish I could have found stats for "pressures", which would be a better indicator than pure sacks, but I was unsuccessful.
| Team Trench Rankings in the Super Bowl | |||||||||
| Winner | Offensive Sacks |
Offensive AVG/Rush |
Defensive Sacks |
Defensive AVG/Rush |
Loser | Offensive Sacks |
Offensive AVG/Rush |
Defensive Sacks |
Defensive AVG/Rush |
| Raiders | 24th | 16th | 4th | 3rd | Redskins | 6th | 12th | 6th | 6th |
| 49ers | 2nd | 2nd | 11th | 9th | Dolphins | 1st | 14th | 20th | 3rd |
| Bears | 14th | 5th | 3rd | 6th | Patriots | 7th | 14th | 10th | 5th |
| Giants | 18th | 12th | 4th | 5th | Broncos | 11th | 21st | 9th | 13th |
| Redskins | 5th | 5th | 4th | 12th | Broncos | 10th | 20th | 23rd | 24th |
| 49ers | 23rd | 1st | 12th | 4th | Bengals | 9th | 2nd | 11th | 22nd |
| 49ers | 19th | 13th | 8th | 5th | Broncos | 17th | 18th | 5th | 7th |
| Giants | 7th | 25th | 25th | 7th | Bills | 6th | 8th | 9th | 6th |
| Redskins | 1st | 18th | 3rd | 11th | Bills | 15th | 3rd | 18th | 15th |
| Cowboys | 3rd | 11th | 13th | 3rd | Bills | 6th | 6th | 12th | 1st |
| Cowboys | 4th | 4th | 20th | 19th | Bills | 7th | 22nd | 14th | 12th |
| 49ers | 18th | 8th | 7th | 7th | Chargers | 12th | 11th | 3rd | 12th |
| Cowboys | 2nd | 5th | 15th | 20th | Steelers | 4th | 19th | 9th | 7th |
| Packers | 19th | 12th | 11th | 3rd | Patriots | 7th | 28th | 19th | 4th |
| Broncos | 11th | 2nd | 12th | 30th | Packers | 3rd | 11th | 17th | 21st |
| Broncos | 6th | 2nd | 6th | 8th | Falcons | 24th | 10th | 19th | 2nd |
| Rams | 7th | 2nd | 1st | 6th | Titans | 3rd | 17th | 3rd | 21st |
| Ravens | 20th | 9th | 22nd | 1st | Giants | 7th | 19th | 9th | 3rd |
| Patriots | 23rd | 24th | 14th | 21st | Rams | 18th | 1st | 7th | 11th |
| Buccaneers | 23th | 28th | 4th | 6th | Raiders | 15th | 13th | 8th | 8th |
| Patriots | 14th | 30th | 6th | 6th | Panthers | 8th | 18th | 7th | 14th |
| Patriots | 5th | 18th | 3rd | 11th | Eagles | 17th | 8th | 2nd | 21st |
| Steelers | 16th | 13th | 3rd | 1st | Seahawks | 5th | 4th | 1st | 4th |
| Colts | 1st | 17th | 30th | 32nd | Bears | 7th | 23rd | 9th | 12th |
| Giants | 12th | 5th | 1st | 8th | Patriots | 5th | 13th | 2nd | 27th |
| Steelers | 29th | 29th | 2nd | 2nd | Cardinals | 11th | 31st | 15th | 11th |
| Saints | 4th | 6th | 13th | 27th | Colts | 1st | 31st | 17th | 17th |
Here are the averages for the Super Bowl winners:
| Averages by Winner | |||
| Offensive Sacks | Offensive AVG/Rush | Defensive Sacks | Defensive AVG/Rush |
| 12th | 12th | 9th | 10th |
That really is a mixed bag of results, but by and large the Super Bowl winning team is Top 5 in something. I can also see where the term, "Defense wins Championships" comes from. With a few exceptions, the best trench defense wins the Super Bowl.
Since we are Broncos-centric here at Mile High Report, I'd like to point out how absurd it was that the Broncos ever made it to the Super Bowl in the 80's. It truly was a testament to John Elway's greatness. I don't know how the Broncos were ever favored against the Redskins in Super Bowl XXII. Also interesting is how overrated the 1989 San Francisco 49ers were.
I must admit, I expected a much higher correlation than I got. There were several teams with bad trenches, but excellent skill positions. The 49ers in the 80's and the Cowboys of the 90's fit that bill, however, most of the Super Bowl winners attained their success through winning the battle in the trenches all season long.
According to my research, the two best teams of the last 27 years were the 1998 Denver Broncos and the 1999 St. Louis Rams. They were the only two teams to have ranked in the Top 8 in every single category I studied. The best team to have lost the Super Bowl is easily the Seattle Seahawks of 2006. They actually ranked in the Top 5 in every category.
So what does this all mean? It means it takes a special player or offense to overcome a horrible trenches defense, and vice verse. However, the great all around teams have a great chance of bringing home the Lombardi Trophy than a lopsided team.
So before you lament the Broncos needs at a "skill" position. Look at their rankings in the trenches for the past four season.
| Broncos Trench Stats 2006-2009 | ||||
| Year | Offensive Sacks | Offensive AVG/Rush | Defensive Sacks | Defensive AVG/Rush |
| 2006 | 13th | 9th | 15th | 18th |
| 2007 | 16th | 3rd | 17th | 31st |
| 2008 | 2nd | 4th | 26th | 31st |
| 2009 | 16th | 16th | 10th | 28th |
Last year we saw the interior line suffer due to a switch from the Zone Blocking scheme to Power Blocking. The transition should be fairly complete by September, so hopefully these rankings will return to 2008 levels. The Broncos also so a marked improvement in their pass rush over what we have seen the previous three seasons. The poor run defense is unacceptable. These rankings must improve if the Broncos are every going to challenge for a Title again.
Which is why I don't understand the knee-jerk reactions about trading Brandon Marshall. We have bigger problems to worry about than some disgruntled, albeit talented, player who touches the ball an average of seven times a game.
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Comments
Kneejerk
Is for people who are not in touch with reality. Led by MSM folk who regurgitate the falsehoods that are common.
Derek Anderson is just as much a probowl quarterback as Jay Cutler
My issue is we why didnt some draft beef last year
Guys pasted in the 1st
C Alex Mack
OG Eric Wood
OG Andy Levitre
Passed on in the 2nd
OG/RT Eben Briton
C Max Unger
OG Louis Vasquez
If we were switching schemes one of those guys would have been nice. It also would have been nice to get a DL last year. As far as I see we dont have the option of going with a skill position early we need beef too bad.
McD said
it would be a multi year process. It must have been his long term plan to get beef this year. It probably made sense at the time because Denver’s O-line was one of the best in 2008. Wasn’t counting on the deminished skills of the older linemen and the injury to Harris. i think their biggest mistake was letting Pears go to Oakland.
Derek Anderson is just as much a probowl quarterback as Jay Cutler
If its a multi year process
we should have at least started last year. Passing on both all rookie team OG and C doesnt sit well with me because now we really need two new starters at those positions. All those names I listed above were solid starters as rookies.
With that said
I should give McX credit for fixing our STs with the 2009 draft, I hope we hit on these picks this year
Multi-year process to build the team
He fixed d-backfield last year and running backs. We’ll see how the training of olsen and baker is going in camp.
Derek Anderson is just as much a probowl quarterback as Jay Cutler
We drafted 2 O-linemen in 2009
Guard Seth Olsen in the 4th and Centre Blake Schlueter in the 7th
Blake Schlueter didn’t work out but big things are expected of Olsen this year!
Last year we concentrated on special teams and the secondary! We had new coaches, new systems on offense and defence, a large player turn over and we had to address quite awful special teams play. Which may I add was very much improved.
Hind site is a wonderful thing to have! However ouir problems werenever going to be fully addressed in one draft!
I pointed out above
That we fixed STs and game McX props for doing just that. I didnt want all our problems addressed in one draft, I wanted one good linemen. I dont think thats too much to ask for.
Quinn
Doon’t fforget Quinn. He may turn out to be a top drawer blocking TE
Quinn better be freaking good at blocking!
He damn well better turn out to be a top blocking TE considering his draft position and his lack of receiving resume entering the NFL (12 total catches in four years of college football). We traded UP into the 2nd round to take this guy. That 2 year expectation spreadsheet McX uses better say, “Rich Quinn – end of year 2 starter and impact blocking TE”.
In my opinion.
Wasn't Quinn's lack of catches
an artifact of the offense he was in, which didn’t use the TE much as a pass catcher? It was my impression that Denver thought his receiving skills were better than generally realized.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I remember that story too
I agree with McG though he better turn out at least as a darn good impact blocking TE
Academe, n.: An ancient school where morality and philosophy were taught. Academy, n.: A modern school where football is taught.
Fans don't boo nobodies.
you mention a couple
but really there werent that many good O-linemen last yr. We would have flipped if we got linemen at the top of the draft. We werent desparate last yr, but this yr we are.
Last yr, D-backfield was atrocious and the RB situation was lackluster. We drafted on need last yr based on what the draft was able to give us. This yr is much stronger for that type of player (trenches).
I like how much everyone is on board to re-build the trenches. It should be a great draft.
by Orange and Blue on Apr 18, 2010 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not sure the Broncos could anticipate that...
…Hamilton and Wiegmann would decline so severely. Just like much else about McD, the revised reality has become that he just threw a bunch of zone blockers into a power scheme. The truth is that Denver ran a heavy assortment of zone scheme plays— especially early— then seemed to accelerate the move to a more power look when Hamilton got treated like a rented mule and Wiegmann steadily declined as the season progressed. The turning point of the season was Baltimore— where Harris got hurt and the interior got exposed by a big, active and physical front seven. Though its a matter of opinion, it seems logical to me that Denver would accelerate a move to the long-term plan when they did— they were no more effective in the old scheme, why not starting giving everybody more ‘reps’ in the future plan?
Denialists replace the open-minded skepticism of science with the inflexible certainty of ideological commitment.-- Michael Spector
by PredominantlyOrange on Apr 18, 2010 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions
The Broncos couldnt anticipate Hamilton and Wiegmann decline?
Come on now, Weigmann is going to be 37 when the season starts and he doesnt even weigh 290 lbs. Hamilton was about 290 and would have been 33 at the start of the season. Those guys are light and old for a power scheme, thats obvious.
I dont care if they used some zone scheme in the beginning of the season, if they were going to switch they should have at least drafted one decent interior OL to facilitate it. OG/RT Eben Briton, C Max Unger , OG Louis Vasquez those guys played very well and all started as rookies; we passed on some of them multiple times in the second round.
We didnt accelerate as much as we should of, because we didnt have the personal too.
Totally missed the point, I guess.
The idea going into the season was to retain a predominantly zone scheme. That’s why Turner and Dennison were holdovers from the previous regime. At the same time, every pundit on the planet was waxing poetic about how Denver’s offensive line was the clear strength of the organization. So while hindsight in a nice and convenient way to manufacture something to criticize, it really doesn’t work in this instance. The idea wasn’t to jump right into a straight power scheme— apparently still isn’t if you listen to McD— but rather to run with what seemed to be a true strength of the team. It didn’t work out for a number of unanticipated reasons, including injury to Harris, and steep decline in two players that only you seemed to see coming, and a mobility crippling injury to a QB that didn’t have much mobility to spare.
Denialists replace the open-minded skepticism of science with the inflexible certainty of ideological commitment.-- Michael Spector
by PredominantlyOrange on Apr 18, 2010 6:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Right
The idea was to use one play book for the skill positions and another for the big men. I have more faith in McD than that. I wasnt aware every pundit was pimping our OL, I thought I remember the MSM saying the offense was very good, and that we had maybe the best pair of young OTs. Considering those bookend OTs are the hardest part to find, I assume you mistook this as a statement highlighting the perceived strength of the entire offensive line. (depth included?)
Lets not even mention the OL available in the 2009 draft, obviously it upsets you.
Not one defensive linemen was drafted last year. I thought that maybe because this thread was about the trenches, I could mention that so far the McX tenure has failed to address them.
You can keep saying “in hindsight” (flame) “manufacture something to criticize” blah blah. I don’t mind being considered critical. But please do not tell me that 30 plus year old are anything more than a stop gap, not a solution.
Draft big bodies please McX, early and often. Thats how we move forward
I'm all for beefing up the lines this year.
Just like I’m glad we didn’t go into 2009 with guys like Marquand Manual, Marlon McCree and Dre’ Bly in our secondary rotation, Selvin Young as our feature back and Jarvis Moss as the future at OLB.
You have all the right in the world to be critical, just as I have all the right in the world to disagree. Accusing me of getting mad is a little dramatic— I just have an allergy to revisionist history and goal oriented reasoning.
Denialists replace the open-minded skepticism of science with the inflexible certainty of ideological commitment.-- Michael Spector
by PredominantlyOrange on Apr 18, 2010 7:05 PM MDT up reply actions
PO is not the only one who thought we were in good shape on the O-line
I thought so too. The larger point is McD couldn’t address all our needs at once, so he had to prioritize. It’s easy in retrospect to criticize his choices. Hamilton and Weigmann were getting up in years, yes, but there are older lineman playing fine. Tennessee’s Mawae is 39, I think. They’re ready to replace him this year but last year he apparently did pretty well at 38. As for the D-line, there wasn’t much out there. Should we have wasted a draft pick on one simply because that was what we needed? If there was a mistake made it was in letting Pears go, as 3nS suggests above. And notice that McD did address the D-line more effectively this year in free agency, when there were some good players available.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I think the reason we didn't see Mawae on our roster is that he was at the bottom of the heap
just ahead of Pittsburgh’s Justin Hartwig. We don’t need Mawae, we have Dustin Fry and Seth Olsen. When people don’t see results they start murmuring their discomfort, it’s happened since the dawn of man and it will continue. People have to see the face value to believe. Do I think or know Dustin Fry or Seth Olsen will be the answer? I have no idea, but I trust McDX’s judgement of the trenches and how they want to make it better. They addressed the defensive side in free agency right away and to leave the OLine alone has me wondering in a positive way that our OLine is in better shape right now then it was at any time last year. Time will tell.
it was a risk that backfired... thinking the guys we had in place would last. We here all thought our line was good, right?
say it like it is. It was a reasonable risk but in hindsight it was a mistake. And just maybe a guy like Cutler made our line look better just like the line made him look better.
Regardless of how much we were changing our scheme …or how quickly. B$ has a very real point. Would have been very nice to have addressed what now is a great need ….LAST year.
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 18, 2010 7:45 PM MDT up reply actions
We did start last year
And, we did draft a guard and a center. Looking backward and claiming that Denver should have taken players that we now know worked out well (but still don’t know if they would have fit the Denver system) seems a little heavy handed. Can you tell me what positions we have to take and who will be on the all rookie team at those positions right now? Me neither. Keep in mind that overall, we had one of the best OLs in the NFL the year before. We took two more players, and traded for Hochstein on top of it. It’s not that Denver didn’t address it – it’s that it takes more than one year.
It all starts with the lines
by Doc Bear on Apr 18, 2010 3:58 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
We didnt prioritize the trenches, it's not heavy handed its a fact
Neither offensive nor defensive lines were prioritized. That should be very obvious if you look at the players McX drafted last year. No I cant tell you what positions we would have to take to get all rookie honor players. What is clear, is for a player to earn all rookie honors he actually has to play in the game not on the sideline with his balls. And because the interior of the offensive line was old and light for the new scheme, I figured that would have been a great time to prioritize at least one of the lines, because they would get a chance to play. A rookie D linemen last year would have also received considerable playing time, considering the scheme change.
Denver didnt address either trench, they barely put a band aid on it. We changed defenses and changed blocking style I get it takes time. But honestly we didnt put enough pieces in place to make either happen easier.
IMHO
our decline had more to do with the switch from zone blocking to gap blocking than the decline of Hamilton and Wiegmann. Just my opinion.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
I agree 100%
It probably was the switch not the personal, but hopefully moving forward we have a scheme and we draft to fit that.
All I want is enough big men in this draft to fill a couple holes, and maybe a couple to groom as depth. I do not want to point out we passed on many in 2009, but I think it’s important to highlight just how much we actually need linemen. And if it really does “all start in the trenches” (like you sig), I would think it’s perfectly logical to get upset that we the neglected cheese burger eaters in the 2009 draft.
True
It might have just been a situation where we didn’tknow which hole in the dike to put our finger in. We appeared to be fairly strong on the O Line.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
What part of
drafting a guard and a center and bringing in Hochstein adds up to “didn’t address either trench?” Playing a rookie O-lineman, or drafting and playing a D-lineman from a not very deep class, doesn’t automatically add up to all rookie honors. They actually have to be good. Getting playing time didn’t do much for Polumbus, did it? I understand your impatience and I, too, hope we pick up some O-line beef and perhaps a D-lineman in this draft, but I think you’re being unfair.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
i thought he said "didn't prioritize" ...true statement
but then as you say …weak draft in the trenches. Other teams found starting linemen and we didn’t go there early enough IMO.
We’ll see but Moreno, Phonz & Quinn (I know you call Quinn a trench pick… questionable) all could have gone more towards ‘trench picks’ …Maybe our #14 this year would have been nice too!!!
And as far as ANTICIPATION? Everyone knew this was going to be a deep draft if only due to the underclassmen coming out before the CBA ran out…
It’s damn early to be calling out McX’s 1st draft errors exactly as such but there were some questionable enough to moves to wonder just how this year’s going to go. I think there are many of us trying to be hopeful but don’t feel we have much to go on there beyond hope. I do believe McX is smart… I’m ready to be shown!
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 18, 2010 8:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Spock
Im sorry if you feel I am being unfair. But I have a easy time saying that we didnt address trenches last year, or as I put it initially “didnt prioritize it”. To me spending a fourth round pick on Olsen and trading for a 32 year old OG isnt what I call addressing anything. Every single year a couple project linemen need to be taken. But when I look and see how all picks we had on the first day of the draft resulted in zero linemen. That’s where I come to the conclusion, that it wasnt important for us to get big bodies.
And I dont care about “rookie honors”, I just was trying to show what can happen when you have a hole and you fill it with a relatively high pick especially on the interior OL.
While not our main focus
We did make a few picks, as said before. This next draft will be a bit different I feel, with a few more picks to help out our lines.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Apr 18, 2010 10:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Don't feel bad jaffe
I wanted Rey Rey and BJ Raji.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Great post
This is a great look at how we did versus those teams that win Super Bowls. I voted trench, if we can give the running game some blocking, and protect Orton for a little while longer, I think we can make it without Marshall.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Your finest work Zappa!
Thanks for the excellent post. For me the message is clear. With average trenches you can succeed only with outstanding skill players With poor trenches, success is impossible. With outstanding trenches, average skill positions are all that is necessary for success. I would take Pouncey with #11.
It all starts in the trenches - HT 11/11/08
Leave the hateful vitriol to the uninformed - HT 3/16/09
by firstfan on Apr 18, 2010 12:29 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks...jsut got back into town. :)
I hope we move back a few spots, then take Pouncey.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
the dirty jobs
are finally getting the ‘spect they deserve. It’s great we all want and understand how much better we need to get there. I see us drafting 4-5 trench guys. rec’d.
by Orange and Blue on Apr 18, 2010 12:56 PM MDT reply actions
I’d much rather see Denver draft trench players that allow them to really compete with the teams that matter when it comes to making a real playoff run. That type of draft isn’t sexy and rarely does it yield immediate Pro-Bowl players but solidifies the core of the team to allow them to compete rather than overachieve.
Look at Detroit. Constantly drafting in the first or second slot each year for almost a decade has gotten them nowhere. They have spent huge chunks of salary cap on draft picks that were not designed to give their team a good foundation to build upon. Their trench players have sucked and no matter how many Top 10 WRs and QBs they draft the team never makes it out of the bottom of the NFC. Matt Stafford might just turn out to be a good or great QB but without a solid core of players at the trench positions he will have to carry his team.
How long has it been since Denver had a proper MLB? Too long. They have tried too many stop gap fixes or moved players that were OLBs like DJ Williams to the middle and it hasn’t worked. I still think that DJ is too light and not powerful enough to play this role. McClain from Alabama would be a nice pick as he doesn’t need to learn the ILB position. He has been there and made plays. Good size and strength is a must at ILB. Maybe he can teach DJ a few things?
The Broncos have lacked a quality C since the Tom Nalen days and they have a chance to grab Pouncey to remedy that.
The need to replace Marshall with another 1st rounder like Dez Bryant is a silly and expensive notion considering the fact that this is a WR deep draft year. Adding a 2nd or 3rd rounder like Eric Decker from Minnesota would bring some size and work ethic to the WR corps minus the big paycheck and Diva WR potential.
Adding a G and perhaps another DT in the middle and later rounds should help out.
Um no
The Broncos have lacked a quality C since the Tom Nalen days and they have a chance to grab Pouncey to remedy that.
Umm… didn’t Weigman make the probowl for us?
Just because he fell of a cliff in performance last year, doesn’t mean he wasn’t great the year before.
Come on folks, hindsight is 20-20 and all, but NO ONE thought we had anything but depth problems at o-line last year, and we we did what do for depth… throw a few later round prospects at it and see what sticks.
I tend to agree with most of what you said.
I know Weigmann was better than he played last year, but I still think most of our offensive line problems started when Harris got hurt. Somebody wasn’t able to fill Harris’ shoes.
I’m right there with you. Marshall was a 4th rounder. Let’s get skill guys in the 3rd, 4th, and 6th. Let’s get trench guys with the higher picks if the value is there.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Agree
If we draft Bryant with the #11 pick, I think the Broncs will have lost a great opportunity to upgrade the middle on offense or on defense.
Nice article, Tim.
by Baltimore Bronco on Apr 18, 2010 1:17 PM MDT reply actions
I don't agree.
Talent wise Dez is miles apart from the other WR prospects in this draft.
If they pick him i wouldn’t see it as a bad pick i would embrace it because Josh would have obviously been convinced about his personality, his talent was never at question.
I also wouldn’t mind seeing McClain in orange and blue, he could definitely be effective at the ted position even in his first year because he is so smart.
The talk of Dan Williams also being a good choice is interesting, due to McD saying he is athletic enough to play either NT or DE which could getting him more playing time and increase his immediate impact.
Those are the guys i could see as the pick at the 11 spot. But each of those positions can be had in the later round, obviously with a step down in talent but it will be interesting to see which player they think is a can’t miss.
If they trade down the story is different and Pouncey, Weatherspoon or Odrick become the likely picks and they would all be trench picks.
Tim said in his draft theories posts that the Patriots tend to draft trench player in the first and skill players in the second. 5 of the options in the first are trench guys and one is a wr, if we pick Bryant it would illustrate to me that he really was a can’t miss talent but i wouldn’t be that surprised if we didn’t.
How many games did BMarsh win for us last year??
How many will Dez Bryant win for us in 2010?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Sorry...the thought of Bryant being on out team disgusts me right now...
If we weren’t willing to pay big money to BMarsh, why the F would we do it for Bryant!?! It makes no sense……BMarsh was a proven commodity. :(
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
+1. Agree with both above posts.
Great overall “Trench” post, BTW dude. I’m always preaching the same thing but so many either poo-poo it calling it old school. Even in today’s pass happy league where the rules favor the offenses as a whole vs. the defenses, it’s still apparent to me that O and D line play is of paramount importance. Especially come playoff time.
by Gristle McThornbody on Apr 18, 2010 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks McT, I agree totally.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I don't really care how
much more talented he is than the other prospects I just really want to get the guy who is going to help us win consistently and as good as he is I don’t think we’re at the stage where a guy with that talent can be picked up and causing us to miss on some guys who are going to help us get there in the long run. Also against it just because it means we’re picking at 11 which I really hope we aren’t forced to do. McD seems to be good at wheeling and dealing so I doubt we stay where we are. I wonder how many of the picks we have now we’ll actually pick at. I said we’d trade 4 times in my submitted mock which by the way now seems like it has no chance of happening, but I think we could trade upwards of 6 times now. Just too many possibilities
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
I think Dez will help us win the odd game
here and there, I’m really trying to look for the guys that can form a core that’ll help us win this division and championships in the future. I don’t see Dez as that kind of guy because he’s either a success and then will be too expensive to keep or a bust that we wasted a high pick on. Either way I don’t see him playing past his rookie contract if we did draft him. In my opinion
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
Character Counts
Protests by the Head Coach to the contrary, lying and some of the other things Bryant have done are indicative of bad character, just as creating stains on the dress of an intern was sexual activity on the part of a former President. This draft may be the signature move of the McDaniels/Xander era and I hope they handle it correctly.
I am really hoping to say at this time next week that the Broncos made a major step forward in their next era. A solid draft strengthening the trenches would be indicative of such a move. Stay tuned!
by Baltimore Bronco on Apr 18, 2010 2:20 PM MDT reply actions
Picking a highly talented player in round one..
Doesn’t rule out strengthening the trenches in the other rounds, especially in this very deep draft. Round 2, 3 and 4 have plenty of skilled trench players that could provide that major step you mention.
I understand your concerns on a guy like Bryant, but i am willing to take what McD said at face value and consider that his past issues where over blown and he made a couple of mistakes that he wishes he could take back. If you read about his upbringing, it will leave you with no doubt about why he might have struggled in certain ways in the past, and according to a few sources he has hired a life coach to help him get it right.
But don’t get me wrong i’m not totally stuck on the guy, as i said if McD picked him i would be convinced that those issues that concern you don’t concern the coach and that is the important part right?
Not that I agree because I’d take a Payton Manning or John Elway over having a great O-line 100 times out of 100, but the Center touches the ball on every single play and he calls out the blocking assignments for his mates. Sounds mucho important to me.
Pouncey at 11.
Or McClain. They’ll both be awesome NFL players.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Apr 18, 2010 2:35 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Pouncey yes. McClain….I’m pretty lukewarm on him. I can’t get past his health problem. I’ll honestly be shocked if McX take McClain.
by Gristle McThornbody on Apr 18, 2010 7:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Pouncey at 11.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Excellent post, Zappa! Rec'd.
Very timely, I might add. People forget the importance of the trenches. The Chargers of the 70’s never saw a WR that they didn’t like – and their teams won accordingly. They had neglected their trenches.
I agree with McGeorge on the importance of the player at the Center position. He touches the ball as often as does the QB. And he determines how the QB is going to receive the ball by his snap. Pouncey is an excellent choice – and we then get to see him battle Dustin Fry for starter.
This is the year to build our depth along the OL. In my own mocks, I have 1 OC and 2 OT/OG guys. I know that the present guys – including the 3 new journeymen – will be better, but I think that we need a healthy infusion of talent. I agree with 3nS that letting Pears go really hurt last year when Harris went down. That diminished Simms chances for success as well.
I am slowly coming around on McClain. Still not sure about his lateral movement skills. But he is growing on me.
It is really cool that the ‘98 Broncos and the ’99 Rams came out looking so good. I remember reading the stats of our games in the mid-80’s: Elway throws for 300 yards and Sammy Winder runs for 55 yards on about 18 carries.
Thanks, Tim.
Thanks man!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
How can anyone be in favor of
skill position players? On Denverbroncos.com, the poll results show 60% of respondents think we should draft a wide receiver with the first pick. Maybe I’ve been here at MHR too long, but I’ve also seen WAY too many 1st round busts at WR and later round successes. In such a deep draft, it makes NO sense to take a WR in the first round. The linemen available should be drafted before anything else – the guard and center positions, and possibly ILB.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Great and very appropriate article Zap...
- Whatever "it" was that got you to where you are today, "it" will certainly not be enough to enable you to stay there going forward! -
Build the Lines!
I totally agree this is where our focus needs to be. I did run into an article (can’t remember where, sorry) which laid out an argument saying that drafting a top running back was more impactful to having a better rushing attack then drafting linemen. It had some holes but really made me think. Is Knowshon going to be that impact for us when we improve the line? I’ll be honest it made me a little nervous. There are a lot of factors though……hold out into training camp, injuries, rookie wall and the like.
rec'd for some very telling stats. Thanks Tim
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
“Where is the Broncos biggest need going into the 2010 NFL Draft?”
Starting Center. It’s not even close. We don’t have one on our roster right now.
In my opinion.
I didn't know
that the 97 Broncos were 30th against the run. Teams must have tricked them a lot by running instead of passing when they were behind. Denver also faced a lot of good backs that year, like Curtis Martin, Corey Dillon, Napoleon Kaufman, The Bus, and Jamal Anderson.
Stats can be misleading
They were 30th in YPC, but might not have been that low in yards allowed. The Broncos of that era seemed to always be jumping out to big leads, which probably meant that later in the game they were defending against the pass, not the run. If you’re twenty points ahead and rushing the passer and the other team gains 7 yards on a running play that’s something you’ll probably be happy to live with.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Teams were behind alot and threw more than they ran...
the YPC were high, but the total yards were low.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
PERFECT STORY TIM!
Every freaking Mock I see with anyone besides on o lineman has bothered me. You may not really “win in the trenches” but you sure can lose in them. And in the end great line play will move an average team to a GREAT TEAM!
Pouncey or Lupati at 11. Or move back to 15, take Lupati or Pouncey then move back up into the first with one of the seconds, one of the extra picks we get from moving back and grab Pouncey if he slips to 20 something.
THAT would be a perfect Draft in my world. I may even drive down to dove valley and kiss whatever staffer they let me talk to in person!
TULO MVP 2010, Gold Glove 2010-2024 (The last 3 on merit rather than skill) HOF 2029 on the fact he breaks Bond's HR record in 2017 while voluntarily submitting blood tests for HCG
Yay for Floyd Little HOF . Now lets get Sharpe, Davis, Atwater, Smith, Gradishar, Tom Jackson and all the other Broncos greats in there.
User name pronounced Air-Ah-Miss Originally from my days in the SCA, became a gamer and forum tag because it is odd and it is a name I like
by Arimaris on Apr 18, 2010 6:46 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Thanks man, we are in agreement...hopefully we can trade back
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Good work Tim
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Thanks Kap
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Draft the trenches
Then let all the MSM draft-day experts talk about how stupid the Broncos are — that will give them something to talk about during the broadcast…
+1
Pouncey or Iupati in rnd 1. Hopefully with a trade back but even without. Beef up the lines! At least 2 or 3 picks on O line. Bring on the draft!
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
From PFT:
Iupati also has been worked out privately by the Browns, Eagles, and Jaguars. Teams rumored to be interested but trying to hide it are the Broncos, Raiders, and Giants
Woohoo!!…unless the Raiders take him.
Denialists replace the open-minded skepticism of science with the inflexible certainty of ideological commitment.-- Michael Spector
by PredominantlyOrange on Apr 18, 2010 10:23 PM MDT reply actions
lol. trying to hide it, eh?
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
i like the analysis
I can’t believe every where I’m reading about the needs of denver being Dez Bryant and all the supposed fans doing nothing, but bashing a guy who clearly has a plan set in place. I bounced around so many MSM sites and I can’t honestly believe I stumbled upon MHR seriously don’t know what I’d be doing without it. I’d probably still be getting into mindless arguments over why we shouldn’t fire a coach before he’s even had the opportunity to get on the field.
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
Did you find the accusation that he was on th grassy knoll?
The stuff folks come up with is constantly amazing. He has an ego – thanks goodness. No HC ever won without one. He didn’t do enough for the lines – except to bring in Olsen, Hochstein and a center who didn’t work out. Tyler Polumbus showed potential, but didn’t work out. Fine, but no one knew. Since then he’s brought in Fry, and plenty of good OL started on PSs. he also has McChesney, a 333 lb guard. On defense, he brought in Fields, started McBean from the PS, kept Kenny P but brought in LK Smith and Vonnie Holliday. Other than that, he didn’t do squat about the lines. Yeesh.
Of course I want more trench players. I feel that way every year. Nothing new. McD has a plan for this – I’m going to let him execute it and talk more then.
It all starts with the lines
by Doc Bear on Apr 18, 2010 11:06 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Well said Doc
Hopefully we can all talk about how happy we all are with the Broncos draft 7 days from now.
McD obviously knows that interior OL is a need for his team. He said as much in his press conference, that Center is a priority to address. I Dont know that we need to take both a OC and a OG in the higher rounds, but Pouncey has to be drafted IMO.
I am getting very excited about this week.
"It's okay to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings" - Kurt Kobain
by JChase8410 on Apr 19, 2010 12:08 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Is it still 7 days away??? :(
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
As long as we have a guy who can back up Harris or god forbid Clady
I’m happy as long as I know there is a plan in case something happens to one of our stud tackles
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
Haha I read a ton of them and I guess not being from Denver maybe I saw it from a different light
than the people on ESPN, Fannation and the post, but ya some people were just way too short sighted that they must have had blinders on or couldn’t deal with change that didn’t yield immediate success. I mean I didn’t hear much at the beginning of the season where we were doing nothing, but winning. There is that saying though that winning cures everything so I guess they were doped up on some of the success, but it didn’t take them long to come back. I can’t remember what all of the comments were, but some of them were just absurd and you know it’s shameful when fans of other teams are telling these guys that he’s actually done the team some good. I agree with you he did a lot to shore up the D last year and addressed some needs on O. I do have one question though. He didn’t seem to play Olsen last year or am I mistaken? Was that to protect him and give him a full year to get comfortable with the system instead of throwing him out there and hoping he swims…also I guess same would go with McCheseney. Sadly I didn’t get a chance to see a lot of the games at the end of the year so I don’t know how much playing time they got.
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
Is it true
that they’re trying to move Iupati to tackle? If so I can only see that being done to try and increase his draft stock. I think I agree with most people we need to re-energize those trenches with the right youth infusion hopefully it’s Pouncey, but I only really want him if he truly is a significant upgrade over Tennant (a guy who has started at the position a lot longer). Is Pouncey just so talented that he can handle the center position without getting a lot of the experience in college. If so great! That’s just my only concern about him
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
He started 1 year at LG (as a freshman)
Then 2 years at C. All SEC his sophomore year, All American his Junior year. He has had plenty of experience.
by black_knight101 on Apr 19, 2010 7:48 AM MDT up reply actions
ok
I was just going off something I read, still isn’t center a little big more challenging than guard in terms of reading the defense and picking up blitzes. I mean if he can do it I’m happy with going and getting him.
Just make it Thursday already! I'm wasting too much time
Fans don't boo nobodies.
Amazing....simply amazing.
91% voted for Trench positions, while the fans on DB.com voted 75% for Skill positions. Just wow. We need to get those people into the fold over here.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
1998 Superbowl win over the Packers
Elway completes 12 of 22 for 123 yards and the Broncos still win. The Broncos had become more of a running team and had built up the offensive line the previous 4 seasons adding Zimmerman, Schlerath, and finally Tony Jones in 1997.
The Broncos also solidified the defensive line by picking up Neil Smith and Keith Traylor from the Chiefs in 1997.
They need to take a similar approach now. They need to be able to run the ball and stop the run. Kyle Orton is not the type of QB that can carry a team to the playoffs by himself like Elway did early in his career.
Picking up an inside backer, a defensive lineman, and a center/guard in this years draft will get us going in the right direction. Denver is still 2 years away from being a playoff team on a yearly basis.
More on the Chart
Lot’s of work. Thank you. I agree with your premise but partially disagree with your analysis. In looking at your numbers on the surface, the Trench rankings showed no discernible patterns related to the outcome of the games. What was interesting when I looked deeper what I thought that mattered was anomalies or mismatches in the trench warfare numbers. The Bronco’s win over the Packers was a great example Our offensive rush ranking was 2nd while the Packers defensive rush ranking was 23rd. The outcome of the game was determined by our ability to run over the Pack and keep their 3rd ranked passing offense off the field to torch our 11th ranked not as big a difference thus the outcome.
This pattern shows up in the Bucs/Raiders match up as the difference was in sack rankings and the Bucs ability to harass the Raider QB into mistakes. I saw it in the Steeler / Cardinal match up as well. What was even more interesting was that the on of the 4 where it wasn’t clear was the Steeler / Seahawk match up and if you remember a couple of inaccurate calls in that game (offensive pass interference that didn’t happen etc) had a huge impact on the outcome.
In the end the trench impact is more apparent when the rankings are disparate creating an imbalance in the game and an effect on the outcome. It is less apparent when the rankings are similar and other elements are more impactful.
Great, thoughtful post.
First of all great post Tim.
The trenches have to be addressed for success, that’s every team’s dream to be successful in the trenches. free agency is an option that a team can’t ignore and many times teams will upgrade their lines from this valuable tool. The broncos saw to that right away this spring in acquiring Bannan, Green and J Williams, and now we seem to have at least upgraded the defennsive side of the ball. These veterans can produce and teach the youngsters the position and how it should be played. We have M Thomas, R McBean on the edges and they will be tutored by some of the best. C Baker in his 2nd year if kept should be developing into our future NT along side of J Williams and R Fields. I am stoked to see how this all unfolds this year.
The offense is an enigma that we will have to wait and see. How D Fry or S Olsen will work is still a mystery and will have to work itself out. McChesney is another player that I am really excited to see play. He did some wonderful things at Colorado and should come this season. If not then he probably never will. A Batiste is another that we know very little about. How McX address the OLine in this draft will give us a little clue and window to the future of our offense. Thanks Tim, Rec’d…
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