Predicting Tebow
by Doc Bear on Apr 25, 2010 4:25 PM MDT
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PrintI've been one of the folks who would prefer a more balanced view of the Broncos newest quarterback. He's done some great things, and he has some weaknesses that are not minor issues. In the midst of all the laudatory arguments that seem to claim that the Broncos are now Super Bowl bound, I'd like to add some centrist reasoning. I'm hearing quite a few straw men arguments, and perhaps there's a middle road to be considered on that.
I tend to read and research quite a bit. Contrary to a recent post, I've heard very few people claim that Tebow 'wasn't accurate' in college. It's extremely important for the chances of future success that a QB making the leap from the college to the pro level to have a minimum of a 60% completion rate in college. Tebow's was well over that, and I haven't hear much in the way of comments that differ on this. College and the NFL, however, are vastly different. I have heard the criticism that he has trouble with accuracy on certain throws. That will or won't be true at the NFL level with the new throwing motion that he is trying to develop - certainly, there is a great connection between Tebow and McDaniels, and TT's in the best spot that he could be in that sense. He'll get the best help that he can to work on all throws.
But to be fair - Tebow has tried once, unsuccessfully, to change his throwing motion. It's very diffferent issue to be able to use a motion in a practice setting and to use it with large angry men bearing down on you at high speed. The last time it was attempted, he wasn't able to use the new motion in game settings. What is in his favor is that he has a lot more time, in this case, to make the motion automatic. Muscle memory takes a lot of time to develop. Hopefully that will work out. I won't assume that it will, but I will hope that it does.
I haven't heard many commentators complain about problems with his 'release'. When they did, they were using the term erroneously. The looping throwing motion he had takes too long for the NFL, in addition to leaving the ball out to be stripped, it takes too much time from receiving the snap to the ball leaving his hand. Most of the comments that I've read were referring to this amount of time - as a comparison, John Skelton holds the ball, takes a three step drop and throws the ball - in other words, releases it - in 1.55 seconds with over 90% accuracy. They have training systems now to work on that, with three circular targets about two feet in diameter, one of which will light up. The timer stops when the ball goes through that target. Skelton's time is very fast, and it's the kind of goal that Tebow will be working toward. The looping motion simply took too long - it also placed an unnecessary strain on the elbow and shoulder, which the new motion is meant to reduce. The old motion exposed him to unnecessary injury.
TT's actual release - the action of having the ball leave the hand, starting with the pinkie finger and continuing to the index finger, with a snap of the wrist at the end, pronating the hand with the palm out and continuing the motion down and across the body, with the thumb ending up pointing at the left pocket is generally fine. When you throw the ball, exactly where you make the release is essential. Every QB has to learn a large number of release points - the release point is different for every throw, and these are memorized just as a surgeon learns a lot of different knots for diffferent situations in surgery. Each point in the release has to be performed at an appropriate 'launch velocity (sometimes called 'release velocity) - for Drew Brees, for example, this is an average of 52 mph, which really puts the ball on the target quickly. The launch angle - the angle between the ground and the forward tip of the football which minimized air drag and produces a tight spiral - is also something that Tebow will also need to work on, but it's not a terrible problem. His throws were more often good than bad.
I've also heard confusion around the word 'footwork'. TT's footwork in terms of catching the snap from the shotgun, positioning his body and making the throw is pretty much fine. What isn't, McD will clean up, but it's relatively minor. However, if you're talking about footwork in terms of receiving the snap, taking 1, 3, 5 and 7 step drops, keeping the feet positioned so that you are always in ballance to make the throw (this is an area where Peyton Manning is unsurpassed, and some of the quarterback 'gurus' such as Bob Johnson at Camp Quarterback have named a shuffling drill after him) will also require a lot of hard work.
There are other issues - such as where and how, exactly, to grip the ball for maximum effectiveness. In the normal grip the ball should be gripped with the fingertips. The middle finger and thumb should form the letter C just below the cone of the ball and with the index finger almost parallel to the seams. The proper grip will permit the ball to come out quickly with a very compact throwing motion. Faster throwing motions mean less sacks, at least in theory. To establish proper rotation (spin) on the ball, the wrist will be snapped slightly at the moment of release.
Not every quarterback will use the classic grip. For example, if you look back to photos of Terry Bradshaw when he was throwing for the Pattsburgh Steelers, he gripped the ball by spreading his hand widely and using his index finger over the far back tip of the ball in order to get better speed on his throws. Denver's own John Elway would grip the ball farther toward the back for the same reason. This increases launch velocity. Gripping the ball slightly toward the middle, as Kurt Warner did, will tend to increase the level of 'touch' that the QB can place on the ball. With the different motion, Tebow may need to also adjust the grip to get a fast motion (and again, this is where the word 'release is either used improperly or misunderstood) that gets the ball out, quickly, accurately and effectively. I'm not going to get into the angle of the elbow, shoulder, etc. - this post is long enough, but it should give you an idea of the complexity of this issue. Those on either side - those who blue-sky it all and claim that it's not of issue aren't being realistic - this is where many college stars fade. Those who claim that he can't do this are also being unrealistic - he's a good student and McD an excellent teacher. He may very well do fine, but it's not unreasonable to recognize that there are major challenges ahead.
As far as the word 'system' - as in 'system QB' - at some point, people need to define terms. Yes, from one perspective, every QB works in a system and is therefore a system QB. That's fine, but it's also not very accurate and to be honest, I'm starting to feel like this is delibrate obfuscation. By casting doubt on the term, some folks are hoping to avoid dealing with Tebow's downside. When people point to the system TT came from, they are making a perfectly valid point with many an abject lesson - QBs who failed. The three things that are the best predictors, right now, of QB success or failure are: college completion rate, as we've covered, the number of college games they're played and won - 32 seems to be the magic number, according to multiple sources, and Tebow is fine there - and whether or not they come from a gadget offense. Tebow does come from a gadget offense. Even the 'pro-style' offenses in college aren't really NFL style, but many are much closer than the one TT is coming from. In other words, he's in good shape on two points and not so much on the third.
The issue with that is that the QBs who come from offenses that use a substantial number of snaps under center is that those young men have years of practice at two important skills. The first is the type of footwork that comes from learning different drops, the routes associated with each and how to set up and make those throws. What I've put down here is a tiny fraction of the knowledge and skills that need to be mastered. The second thing that working under center teaches is how to read defenses from that angle. You get some knowledge from a shotgun-only system, but there is a lot more to the pro game and coming from a shotgun only system has, in the past, been one indicator that a QB will struggle in the NFL.
Tebow has a good situation. He isn't being rushed into the starter's role, which has harmed the progress of many young QBs. He's on a team that has a great LT - this is important because the LT is protecting the weakside, no matter whether the QB is left or right handed, and lacking a good LT will make hamburger out of any QB. McDaniels has gone a long way toward establishing a good OL this offseason, and by the time TT does get on the field as a starter - and I'm assuming that he will - the line should be in good shape. That, too, has a substantial effect on young QBs. McDaniels has a pretty stellar reputation for working with QBs for such a young coach and that, too is in TT's favor. The two of them have an obvious connect that was establshed, from what both of them said, during the visit to Denver. That's great.
But, both sides on this issue should consider stepping back and taking a deep breath. Tebow is a long, long way from winning a Super Bowl and he absolutely won't do it by himself. Look at how long it took Peyton Manning - who is perhaps the best QB in the history of the NFL. There are a lot of factors that go into a team's success or a QB's success, and TT has a lot of hard work in front of him. Pretending that this isn't a major challenge is both pointless and a bit foolish. Insisting that he'll fail is equally so. Right now, he's a 4th string QB who may have a bright future if a lot of things go right. I hope they do - I'm a Broncos fan. But I also try to be a realist, and Tim isn't a SB QB, an All-Pro QB or even a Pro Bowl QB, although that last one tends to be easier for anyone with good name recognition. Perhaps he will get there - he's in a good situation to do so.
But, why not let the process play out before we anoint anyone? Right now, Kyle Orton has earned the starting spot. If his performance next season steps up as far as it did between 2008 and 2009, things could be quite different from what many are assuming now. If it doesn't, Quinn may see his chance - or, for that matter, the forgotten QB, Brandstater, could get his. Brandstater is an extremely intelligent player with more experience on under-center reads and footwork, with an extra year under McDaniels. It could also be Tebow, but he may require longer to develop. No matter which one of them is behind the center, I'll still be cheering for the team. That is, to me, a lot more important than any one player, Tim Tebow included.
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Good post Em!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Nicely written, Emmett
I just learned a whole bunch about the “mechanics” of being the QB.
rec’d
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Em, you continue to outdo yourself.
You touched on something that has been bothering me, and that is muscle memory. In the military and law enforcement, they teach that a solid block of firearms training (40-80 hours, at least) is vital to establishing muscle memory. I believe the accepted number is 2,000 repetitions are required in order to establish something as muscle memory so that, when you are under intense stress, your muscle memory takes over and you simply perform the “appropriate response.” Several instructors believe it takes twice as long to ‘unlearn’ bad muscle memory, and then at the normal learning curve to learn the desired movements.
Like you said, McD seems to be the right teacher, and Tebow seems to be the right student. Let’s hope both are up to the task….
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Tebow supposedly was doing 900 repititions/day while he was working on his throwing motion
so he is well above the 2000 repetitions limit, or even 4000 if you want to go with that.
by black_knight101 on Apr 25, 2010 5:01 PM MDT up reply actions
My worry, which I did not articulate well
Is that he’s tasked with undoing how many years worth of “bad habits”? I don’t see him getting meaningful reps anytime soon, which is good, because the tendency for someone who is still working out the kinks would be to revert to old form the first time he is in a situation where the blitz is on and he needs to get rid of the ball. But I have no doubt he is willing to put in the time….
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Understandable
I’m just guessing that by the time he sees the field, he will have worked out those kinks, even in pressure situations. its not like we’re looking for him to start next year, or maybe not even in 2011. The longer he waits, the better it’ll probably be for his development.
by black_knight101 on Apr 25, 2010 5:08 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed
Don’t rush him onto the field. Steve McNair sat for 2 years?
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Now that I think about it, I kind of like the McNair/Tebow comparison
Although McNair was probably a better passer, and Tebow a better runner, both came out as versatile, highly athletic QBs. And Tebow obviously put his numbers up against far better competition than did McNair in college. But both put up huge numbers in college, and both were still viewed something as ‘projects’ upon being drafted.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Yep...good point.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I am a coach, and muscle memory is a BIG deal...
The athletes body tends to revert to its old habits under stress.
Doc mentions that Tebow has already treied to change his mechanics once. The problem that I see is that Tebow tried to cahnge it under game circumstances…and I dont mean in the game….but I mean in situations like practice when there is a LOT more going on then concentrating solely on one skill.
When you try to change any athletes mechanics, you have to take the skills back to their basics, and really DRILL the part you are trying to change.
For example, when I am trying to work on one of my snowboard athletes mechanics with a spin for example, I will do it concentrating on JUST the mechanics of the spin….I wont expect them to do it in a familiar situation with a trick before it because they revert to the old habit….the mind tells the athlete they have been in the same situation and environment before.
This would happen in football too.
Once any player gets into practice mode, the mind will tell the player they are in a similar situation and replay the movements.
That is why Tebow should have a lot greater probability with the new mechanics now. he has been fixing them in a new environment, with concentration given to the small parts of the skill that will fix the inefficiency.
There is a saying I use for my athletes…..technique outside the course, tactics in. No way would Tebow have success if he is trying to fix mechanics in game like situations like practice.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I think i understand what you are trying to say...
He needs to just practice his throwing motion over and over again outside of practice? where the only thing he is doing is worrying about the throw?
by black_knight101 on Apr 25, 2010 5:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly man...good chance the first time he tried to change he was still running plays and being in GAME LIKE situations.....too much going on in the mind to fix the problem.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
boydy
If you look in the article, I said much the same thing. However – I’ve got ancestors from Missouri (and Kentucky). When it’s done, you can trust it. Until then – a lot of things can go awry. it’s great fun to enjoy what people believe is a great draft, but it’s really the same as last year in one way – you can’t judge anything the week after the draft. When they get into camp and there is direct competition between the players, we’ll know more, but so much goes in unexpected directions that I’m for keeping a more balanced approach. That hardly means that anyone else should, but perhaps it’s not unreasonable to want to see these things accomplished before declaring them a done deal.
It all starts with the lines
Not declaring them a done deal, I am giving reasons as to why the 1st attempt at correcting his throwing motion may have been unsuceesful....
Thats what I love about your articles Doc….makes me think from a different standpoint. You make me think about tangibles…and thats awesome as I am a big intangibles guy.
Thanks mate.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Yes, I love that about yours, too.
We have utterly differing thought processes, yet enjoy the same things and usually come to simliar conclusions – from very different perspectives. And when our conclusions differ, that’s equally fun!
My Teacher tells me to always attempt to look for the 360 degree viewpoint. I commonly fail, but it is the best advice I’ve ever had.
It all starts with the lines
Yep...hard thing to do but GREAT advice!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Group Hug!
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
technique outside the course, tactics in
nice. could be applied from anything from the pool stroke to the golf swing. I’ve oft tried to put that into words, I’ll be plagiarizing this line for sure. It nicely separates the processes involved in defining the thoughts/mechanics of your swing/stroke/throw from the processes involved in utilizing your swing/stroke/throw. To involve the former in the latter is to invite the variables that inevitably end in failure!
Very economical way to relay that concept! Thank You!
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 26, 2010 2:59 AM MDT up reply actions
I was told that the 'magic' number is 10,000
But in fairness, that’s just a number. It takes as many as it takes. When Tebow attempted to change his mechanics last time, he didn’t have a long period of time for them to become natural and automatic before going back into game modes. The human nervous system is fearfully and beautifully wrought in a way that protects us by reverting when under stress to actions that are imprinted. clearly, ther imprinting had not been sufficient under those circumstances – one of his coaches stated that they gave up based on the amount of time that it would take versus the amount of time he had in college – it wasn’t like they were losing a lot, so they bagged it.
Here’s something to consider – when the body has tried to imprint a new pathway and failed, it can – and the operative word is ‘can’, not ‘will’ – can make it more difficult to achieve the next time around. This may or may not be of issue. Like boydy, I was a coach – they called it Sensei, then Shihan, but it’s just a way to say teacher – of physical skillsets. Every student learns in his or her own way, and takes as long as they take. Some actions just don’t register, others come as if already learned. On one level, I’m also suggesting that we treat this player in what I’d consider the kindest way possible – to let him advance at his pace, rather than to set huge expectations on someone who hasn’t been through his first OTA’s yet.
It all starts with the lines
Great points....
Yep, they say it takes 10000 hours of ELITE practice to ingrain ELITE skills…but this will be effected by environment, coaching and attitude and training habits of the athlete.
I agree with Doc. Tebow is in a great place…..and we are “blessed” to have Orton as it gives Tebow the time he needs to get dialled.
I just have a feeling in my gut all bets are off if Kyle gets injured.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
let him advance at his pace
In that sense I really applaud this move. Some people think that the best way to teach someone to swim is to throw them into the deep end of the pool. The psychological effects of drowning could make that person afraid to swim even though he may have the attributes of a champion swimmer. Even if they come through it fine psychologically, they may have developed bad habits for the heat of battle. To select a person with potential and to develope that potential at the students own pace is the least stressful way to train a person for all involved. A good teacher will know when to be sympathetic and when to push his pupils. It wouldn’t hurt me if Tebow doesn’t play a down for 2 years but I suspect part of the teaching program would be the wildcat offense then gradually putting him under Center in short yardage situations.
Now that that is over.....
Which is why
I have more hope for TT than Bradford. The Broncos have the luxury of letting TT develop over time. Bradford will be thrown into the deep end on day one. That’s a tough way to learn.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 25, 2010 7:03 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the grounded viewpoint, Emmett.
This certainly has been a rollercoaster ride since Thursday. Moderate viewpoints are usually the ones which point us in the right general direction, which I would prefer, opposed to a wrong specific one. :)
Cheers, Bro!
~Davus.X~
Est. 1967
Bleeding Orange and Blue for 42 years
Resident of La-La-Land! Mike Clark for President!
How about NEXT YEAR?! 13-3 BABY!
Nice article Bear, but...
there is nothing gimmicky about Florida’s offense. I don’t have Urban Meyer’s Florida playbook but I do have his Utah playbook and notes. On any given Sunday you can find the Broncos running almost the same plays except for the option runs.
Most announcers are stuck in the 1090’s. They need to look around – what does NE run most of the time? What does NO run? GB, Minn, SD? The NFL has become a spread league and these ostrich experts are oblivious to the change.
McD himself said he took plays from Florida's playbook
which would further validate your opinion
by black_knight101 on Apr 25, 2010 5:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes he did -
but if you go back, it wasn’t all that many. I’ll try to find the reference – somewhere in my library of football books, there’s a passage about this from Belichick. He feels, or did at hthat time, that the connection is sometimes overstated. SWG probably knows.
It all starts with the lines
The main difference
Is that, in the Florida offense, teams had to be constantly aware of the threat the read option posed. This sets up a great deal of the passing game in a spread option offense.
One example is a technique college teams often run called a scrape exchange to deal with the read option, which is where the backside DE ignores contain and crashes to the Rb, and the linebacker behind him runs out with the Qb. This is pretty effective against the read option but also leaves some large holes in the defense, namely of the bubble screen variety, which was always incredibly dangerous when it went to Percy Harvin.
Things that college teams had to do to defend the read option won’t come into play in the NFL, the defenses are just too fast all over. It’s one of the big reasons no one consistently runs an option based offense in the NFL, the other being the risk to the Qb, as the defenses aren’t just faster in the pro’s, they are also hit a whole lot harder.
by tricks318 on Apr 25, 2010 8:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I completely agree.
I didn’t like picking Tebow, but now I’m good with it. I’m more than happy to give him a chance, but no less open for any of the existing QBs to claim the spot. I just want what’s best for the Broncos to prevail, when all is said and done.
"People who live in glass houses...shouldn't."
by jayrockstone on Apr 25, 2010 5:08 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Very pragmatic look
nice. One question: do we know what % of the offense was played from the shotgun the last yr McD was O-coordinator?
Not to say Tebow wont need to learn the 3,5,7 step drop backs but maybe they will only be a fraction of the total plays.
by Orange and Blue on Apr 25, 2010 5:08 PM MDT reply actions
A significant part of our offense was out of the shot gun.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I know ours was
but since the personnel wasnt what McD was looking for (IMO) mybe once he gets it, they will run it that much more (if that is true)
by Orange and Blue on Apr 25, 2010 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions
And our offense was pretty poor in 2009 so what does that mean.
Tebow will have to master the 3, 5 and 7 step drops just like EVERY OTHER great QB in the NFL.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Apr 25, 2010 6:27 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
no doubt. I am just saying, if he doesnt master it in the next year, it should not “keep him off the field”. If he is able to do the things he was able to do in college (working from the shotgun), then maybe the mastery of each of the drop steps can come in due time.
by Orange and Blue on Apr 25, 2010 8:02 PM MDT up reply actions
They will be a fraction, OaB
3/4 is a fraction, 4/5 is a fraction….lol Seriously – every NFL QB has to be able to make the entire playbook of throws and will need both shotgun and under center skills, regardless of system.
It all starts with the lines
Em, another question
Where do you fall on the people saying Tebow’s completion percentage was much better than it should have been because of the athletes he was playing with bailing him out? Do you see any of that on the film you’ve watched?
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
small fraction, you are right:). I guess the drop step issue seems one that Bradford would have to overcome also and he doesnt get the benefit of playing in a system (in the NFL) like Denver’s.
I understand Tebow should learn all the intricacies of the position needed for the full playbook. But maybe in the same manner we didnt use the roll outs for Orton we can adapt the playbook some – not always from the shotgun, but most of the time.
by Orange and Blue on Apr 25, 2010 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions
Article might need to be filed under Mile High University
Recommended
Victor Frankl:
What man actually needs is not a tensionless state but rather the striving and struggling for some goal worthy of him. What he needs is not the discharge of tension at any cost, but the call of a potential meaning waiting to be fulfilled by him.
Everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms – to choose one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.
Muscle memory...
..is definitely the source of my greatest cynicism. All I have to do is look at my golf game, where ‘work’ on the driving range rarely translates immediately out on the course. I’ve played many a disappointing round, where I left practice thinking I had something fixed only to have it immediately re-rear its ugly head with the pressure on. I’ve never had to hit a ball with an angry man bearing down on me, either.
That said, you can’t totally discount ‘it’. Phillip Rivers throws like a woman in East German shot put qualifiers, yet has evolved into a world class gamer. There is no reason to borrow trouble and get all pessimistic about Tebow’s ability to find a way to get it done.
He’s ours now, so I’m going to find the positives. That’s just me.
Denialists replace the open-minded skepticism of science with the inflexible certainty of ideological commitment.-- Michael Spector
by PredominantlyOrange on Apr 25, 2010 5:16 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
I agree...Tebow is used to his mechanics, and his ability to move gives him more time than the average QB anyway...
A Better cocking movement will help for sure, but I just dont buy into the fact he is going to be less than average because of his mechanics. A concern? Yes…but not the end of the world.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
All those points
Are completely valid Emmett, however from your post there is alot that goes into craeting a good throwing motion and release, the thing we really don’t know and can only predict based upon what those so called “experts” are saying, is just how extensively Tebows thrwoing motion needs to be corrected.
I.E. if there are 10 main, important steps to and “ideal” throwing motion, does Tebow posses 6,7,9 and of those 10 whihc ones are critical and whicih ones are ancillary, just as an example.
The under center, steps I feel are very valid, since those of us who watch college football extensively, can see clearly that florida ran mainly shotgun, but i think mechanics can be a bit of a grey science, since there are probably numerous throwing motions that QB’s have used throughout the years.
My comment below was mostly to SWG
broncos314 – Can I ask you for some kind of a source for those statements? I’m not trying to be difficult, but after quite a lot of research (I’m working on a series of QB articles, including mechanics and footwork), what I’ve read and seen is the oposite of what you’re saying. It’s true, for example, that some QBs have had lousy mchaniics and done well – Brett Favre was one. Philip Rivers throws with a sidearm motion that puts him at greatly increased risk of injury, but he’s done incredibly well with it. But there really is a science of QB mechanics, and it’s not a grey area. Modern technology has permitted us to break down each of the factors and to establish what the proper motion is, why that is true, and how to develop it. I’d suggest Bob Johnson’s site and materials as a start.
It all starts with the lines
Not implying lossey mechanics
Emmett, I was just staing that even though there is research and a science to mechanics, and believe me I undersatnd, I have a degree in exercise and sports science and took a biomechanics class, (and not trying to brag) and I am not saying the science is a grey area but I was just implying that even though there is research to show what the most proper and best throwing motion, hitting stride, golf swing is, that deosn’t mean that all athletes do what is the most proper, and even though they don’t there have been several QB’s sucessfull with their own throwing motion. The bigger question I am getting at is how far off Tebows motion truly is from the optimal throwing motion. That’s all I was saying, and I do think your article/post is great, not questioning it.
Fair enough
Let me rephrase – and i don’t have his playbook either. I have not seen any under-center plays except in goal-line situations. I did watch several games, and that’s what I came away with. Is it fair to say that the abillities to read from under center, as well as the footwork required on the various drops are taught, or not taught? I saw Tebow himself say that while he recognized that it was important and that he didn’t have that particular skill, that he didn’t see that as a big deal. Whether he’s right or wrong about the big deal part, it seemed from what he said that the way I saw the games was fairly accurate – this issues I’m talking about weren’t really worked on.
According to the QB ‘guru’ sites that I used – Bob Johnson’s was one, and there were two others that I’m using in a different articles, so I’ll hold them back right now – learning the footwork is essential, as is the ability to read defenses from under center, and both require substantial development. Tebow isn’t the first QB to do hundreds of reps each day – it still takes a lot of time to teach the human nervous system to switch over to a certain movement under extreme stress.
I also did a study of the NE pat and then the Denver offenses under McD. I drew quarters at random, then accounted for score and time remaining – I assumed that if ‘my’ team was ahead, that they would run more in the 3rd and 4th Q, if behind, they’re going to throw more, so I threw those out as much as was possible. I used the first three quarters, and again, recognized the issues of score and remaining time. Contrary to what I keep reading, they used the shotgun less than 1/2 the time in most games. I only used 6 games from NE and 4 from Denver to draw from, but I was surprised to find that the shotgun was used less often than I’ve been reading. I did notice that, as you would expect, it depended on the opponent and what defnese ‘we’ were running plays against.
I bring this up only to point out that while I don’t disagree as far as college systems – there are no true college ‘pro-style’ offenses that are really pro style, and I stated that in the above article – the ability to perform those reads, to use that footwork and to get the entire symphony of movement in tune, so to speak is still a difficult skill that many good college QBs fail on, and the less that a college even uses those skills, the more likely it is that the QB will have difficulty learning them. Will Tebow? I think that he has severlal things in his favor; I listed them in the article and I expect him to do well. At the same time, I’m a lousy prophet, and i won’t consider this a done deal until it’s, well, a done deal.
It’s great to look to the future with a positive outlook. But right now, TT is a 4th string QB, coming into a new system in which all three QBs ahead of him have certain advantages. At the moment, Orton is the starter for 2010. When (and even if) someone earns the right to take that away, wel and good. Until then, though, what I am finding is that the issue of the shotgun in the McDaniels offense has also been overstated – it depends on the game, who the opponnt is and the other factors I’ve listed. Until TT has mastered that footwork and those reads and earned the starters job, much o fwhat is being written seems premature. Once he does, if he does, he’s going to have the same struggles that every young QB goes throughin the NFL. And, when all that sorts out, I hope that Denver does go to multiple SBs. But it’s not this week, month, and probably not this year.
It all starts with the lines
by Doc Bear on Apr 25, 2010 5:31 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
TT is the 3rd string QB regardless of his performance
Which is my biggest problem with the pick. Because he is a 1st round high-profile pick, there is no way Tebow gets cut this year. Which means either Quinn or Brandstater are out of a job — whether or not they perform better than Tebow in camp.
Although I expect the more experienced Quinn to be 2nd string when camp breaks, I find myself pulling for Brandy. I haven’t seen anything from Quinn that excites me. Hopefully Brandstater makes it the PS, if nothing else.
I think pressure square on Quinn....
If Tebow picks ups thing quickly, I think they keep Brandy and try and trade Quinn. Quinn, at the moment, is the ultimate insurance policy…Tebow progresses, he will the back up to Orton and Brandy will be kept on squad.
Remember McD’s words…he expects everyone he drafts to be able to stick.
I think that orginally BQ has been the ULTIMATE back up plan…..was ALWAYS going to be Orton’s back up….and was insurance if he could not get Tebow.
How Tebow develops will detetmine whether Brady Quinn stays on the team!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I dunno boydy
I think Quinn was always going to be the perennial #2. Orton is up for a new contract next year and now that Tebow’s here I really doubt the Broncos are going to be sending starters money (which he’ll deserve) his way. This may be a similar situation to the Brees/Rivers situation of a few years back.
They may squeeze through with 4 QBs this year but unless Orton takes us deep into the playoffs, it’s really hard to imagine him with teh Broncos in 2011. Not saying that’s fair but it looks like the reality.
Even keeping 4 is going to be difficult with all the new found depth. We’re already talking about 10 DBs, maintaining youth on the Dline, our sudden depth on the interior of the Oline. Perhaps a return specialist. Roster Math will be interesting again this year!!
"Space is big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind- bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist's, but that's just peanuts to space."
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes" Douglas Adams
by orange&blue_aussie on Apr 25, 2010 9:52 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd love this on several levels
Quinn confuses things. Brandy staying = good things at this juncture. I’d like to see the raw product we’re developing continue to do so… it’d say a lot for McD’s talent acquisition and QB grooming skills …it’d mean keeping a strong armed possible future QB and it’d mean Tebow was coming along as planned also. (hopefully with KO the solid starter)
I can’t imagine keeping four QBs with our unsurity at so many positions… One will be cut before the 1st preseason game imo.
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 26, 2010 2:48 AM MDT up reply actions
Hey, CB
i donn’t know – you certainly could be right on that. Belichick carried 4 for two seasons at the beginning of his tenure in NE, and since Josh bases a lot of BB, it’s also possible that we carry 4 until we discover hich to keep. Joe Hill, from Fresno State, is the one who recommended Brandstater to McD, and the only thing we know are that Woody Paige claimed that Denver didn’t think much of Brandstater – and I don’t consider Woody’s words as gospel – and McD saying thta he wanted Brandstater to compete for the starting job beginning this summer. This is also the man who praised Simms to the rafters and cut him that next morning, so I’m back to ’Wait and see!"
It all starts with the lines
Didn't know BB carried 4 QBs
Didn’t think that was possible… I don’t think Denver has the quality or depth to pull that off, but you never know.
When did Woody say that Denver didn’t like Brandstater? Is that a recent comment? And does anybody seriously believe Brandstater would be starting this year? These things you type are concerning me…
Yikes, I hope McD doesn’t Brister Orton. I really like KO and where he is headed. I hope he gets his chance to show what he can do with a year under his belt.
Woody - yes, 4 - 7 weeeks ago
So much of his stuff is wrong that it’s almost silly to mention it – I’m just being anal retentive about trying to present all sides. do I think Brandstater would start this year? No. The precise comment was that McD wanted to see Brandstater come in And Compete for the starting job. No mention of taking it – nice example of coach speak.
I tend to agree with you no not Bristerin Orton, and I noted this in the article. If he makes the kinds of strides each year that he did in 2008 to 2009, he might be the starter for longer than most expect. It’s interesting – you can see anyting in it that you want, really. Many are suddenly talking about how Denver will dump Orton after 2010, but what if he does continue to make those jumps? Or, I suppose, Quinn finds good coaching rectifies much of his issues. There aer so many things that can happen – yes, i know that 1st round QBs tend to get prime treatment, but for McD, winning comes first. If Orton, Quinn or Brandstater give him that chance, they’ll play. If not, Tebow can more up sooner.
It all starts with the lines
Orton
I feel for the guy, he has to prove himself every step of the way. That is also what I like about him. I expect his qb rating to be 92-95 based on his gradual progress in qb rating every year since his rookie season. Of course there is a ceiling there and what that ceiling is I don’t know. Considering Orton as well as everyone else will be in there second year together and in this offense, there is no reason not to expect improvement. This is why I didn’t want Denver to go out of their way to draft Tebow but maybe McD can see Orton’s ceiling and he feels he can surpass that in time with Tebow. I’d like to see Orton play for Denver 3 more years and have Tebow gradually take more and more responsibility.
Now that that is over.....
Throwing mechanics
there are actually two schools of thought on this topic. The first is a pseudo-biomechanical approach that assumes that there is an ideal throwing motion and attempts to train QBs to adjust their throwing motion to be closer to the ideal. Then there’s the “natural motion” school. This group believes that every player has their own optimal throwing motion and they simply work to eliminate any obvious problems (holding the ball too low, long loopy motion, etc.)
The former dominate the literature, but the latter group can point to a number of hof QB’s with “lousy mechanics.” Elway and Bradshaw come to mind.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 25, 2010 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice post SWG.....it is in the way you approach it....
I had a great example happen to me. I trained with 2 different squads for tennis. I had one coach who was all about technique, and that the technique would make the end of the journey come quickly. He was about grip, backswing and would DRILL us. I also had a coach who was all about efficiency: he was about the simple goal of getting the ball over the net anyway you could, and then working on ways to put placement on shots.
Some athletes could do both…others like me struggled with the TECHNIQUE coach.
Moral: It all depends on the thought processes of the athlete, and what those athletes find important…is it being aesthetically pleasing that leads them to the end goal…or is it going for the end goal first and adpting their skills to that!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
My personal experience:
I was lucky enough to attend a small high school, so I would go from football to basketball to baseball with no breaks in between. I started playing basketball when I was young, and I developed a bad habit of using my non-shooting hand to give a little extra push to the ball, because I was too young and small to get the ball to the rim.
That bad habit with my off hand stuck with me, and it eventually made me a lousy shooter because of the spin it put on the ball. My sophomore year, I break my ankle during a particularly heated scrimmage in practice. For the next 6 weeks, I spent two hours a day shooting free throws while my teammates practiced. I started with one handed shots, then eventually added my off-hand the correct way. The following season, my FG% and FT% shot up drastically, and my coach said it was the best improvement in technique he had seen in a long time. Because all I could do for all those hours was work on that one fundamental flaw…
My point? I’m not really sure now…..
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Muscle memory my friend can be gained by concentrating on the EXACT skill you want to improve????
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
THAT was it!
Thanks Boydy!!!
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
Here's a meaningless story to add to the conversation...
I have had a horrible time shooting FTs my whole life…then last summer I realized that I was cross dominant (left-eyed & right-handed) and that the typical free throw style would not work for me. I completely changed my FT stroke and the footwork on my jumper to non-typical styles (basically I turn to the side like I was shooting a gun left-handed). My %s immediately went up with only moderate practice. I wouldn’t, however, got much better if I had stuck to practicing the “classic” shot like I had been coached my whole life.
Many athletes find success even at the pro level using styles that are successful for them and just simply shouldn’t be coached any other way than a way that is specific to their particular technique. Especially a QB. I get irritated at the QB camp people that think every QB should drilled on a particular style of play. In my mind, those people make QBs like Quinn and Clausen (and Tarvaris Jackson and Vince Young) look like they are trying to do long division in the pocket.
I can almost make out their inner dialog…“arm to cocking position, back of ball facing forward, 83.5% of my weight on my back leg, 35 degree release point…ok now who was my primary reciever?…that hurt…I got sacked again”
There is no ideal
From my experience, “Natural motion” works with the unique physical characteristics of the QB instead of against it. Since you brought up Bradshaw and Elway’s throwing motions, QBs with an abnormally flexible and strong distal biceps tendon have the ability to “snap” the ball much harder without fearing injury (as much). However, creating this snap requires a throwing motion that is not as compact as the “ideal” motion, which brings the ball very close to the ear near the release point. The resulting motion is extended further out from the body. To shrink that motion would rob such QBs of much of their elite velocity. Like you pointed out, rather than cram everyone into one box, Elway and Bradshaw (and countless other NFL QBs) were probably taught how to compensate for their slightly less-than-ideal motion by holding the ball high to avoid the long loop you mention.
I would take you last statement a step further and say that MOST hof QBs have “suffered” from lousy mechanics in a book sense. The only HOFs that immediately spring to mind that had close to textbook, ideal mechanics are Montana and Aikman.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say will be misquoted and then used against you.
No argument
I’m not as familiar with Aikman, but Montana was also very intelligent and another hard worker (I’m sure Aikman was both as well)
It all starts with the lines
Well done and rec'd!
You’ve done a great job of putting things into perspective. I’m in complete agreement that TT has a very long way to go.
I dont think it is a long way, but as any player he has things to work on Rocko....
Ideally, Orton starts this season…..unless Tebow picks up things REALLY quickly.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
A rookie QB
is just like a rookie head coach. They can turn out to be great, mediocre, or total busts. The only thing I know for sure right now is that KO is a good QB and trending up. Exactly how TT will turn out? Noboydy knows the answer and only time will tell. LOL.
I
I agree on KO man...love that guy!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
by boydy2669 on Apr 25, 2010 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
This! Time to sit KO down, praise his progress and map his continued progress with a vote of confidence!
I’m not saying go against McD’s ‘everyone competes every year’ policy but it wouldn’t hurt to let KO know that he’s expected to be the man for at least one more full season before the kid everyone expects to be the next Elway starts realistically expecting…
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 26, 2010 2:39 AM MDT up reply actions
Great article, Doc!
I would like to add a plea to separate this experiment a little more from McD’s success or failure as a coach. I have seen comments in MSM that now McD has “married” Tebow, just as Ricky Waters was married to his drafting coach (oops, memory block). Initially comments mere made here at MHR that TT has to produce within 2 seasons (ie, Tebow success), though to be honest, I did not see these after the first day. Certainly it would seem that although TT is a 1st round pick and a bold, high risk experiment; it is only a part of the process. It is not as if there are not 3 other prospects already in camp that may eventually prove out as the finfal winner in this; and if we win with them, I don’t count a taking shot at excellence against anybody.
They are not married
at this point it’s more like a torrid affair.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 25, 2010 6:15 PM MDT up reply actions
LOL
Cracked me up on that one, SWG. Here’s hoping that it’s not a one night stand!
It all starts with the lines
+1 on that
BTW: I think this is a great discussion. In my opinion the MSM has missed the real issue. The hardest part to master, and the part I never did, is the 3-step game. You have to do so much in so little time, while getting enough drop to not get stepped on.
The other part TT has to nail is play action from under center. If you watch true maestros, like P Manning or (gag) Favre, for a split second you cannot tell who has the ball. And a split second is all the advantage a good QB needs. Then watch a journeyman like our former #6. His PA is so lame you wonder why he bothers.
If TT can get down the 3-step game and PA from under center, he will be a really special player. But those are big IFs.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 25, 2010 6:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Though I do like his ball handling skills....
He sells the option run well, and I have read some scouting reports that laud his ability to sell plays.
With his mobility he BETTER be able to sell play action.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
selling the option
is more like a head fake when going to the rim. Selling PA is more like sleight of hand while dancing in a phone booth. Different skills.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 25, 2010 6:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Yep...but it is still selling a play.....and thats a positive...nice to know we have a guy who is athletci enough to bring that back to the play book.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Emmett, your postings are like a stream of bat's piss…
I merely meant, sir, that, ah, your reason shines out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark. All Monty Python references aside, as with all of your posts I saw this one and looked forward to your balanced analysis with eager anticipation. As usual, I wa not disappointed.
The team, and McDaniels, will neither live nor die this year as a result of Tim Tebow. The selection of Tebow was one that I had reservations about on a number of grounds: The gimmick offense in college, the unconventional throwing motion, the picks sacrificed to select him, the expectations attendant to the round in which he was selected, and frankly, his overtly evangelistic persona all made me leery. However, after a night of bourbon-fueled reflection with my fellow die-hard buddies I awoke Friday with at least a sense of hope for the future.
While predictions for his future success are all over the board, Tebow’s work ethic has been universally acknowledged and praised. Pro Football Weekly’s annual draft guide (which has served my draft day compadres and me as a Bible of sorts for many years) has this to say: "Has the mental toughness and intangibles to break through a brick wall and refuses to fail." He certainly says all of the right things, and expresses a burning desire to reward McDaniels’ support with excellence. This heartens me greatly. For all of his physical tools, I never got the sense that Cutler had the desire to improve his game that I initially thought he would: His reputation as a "Gym Rat" may have been well-deserved, but as a coach’s son I expected more devotion to the film room as well.
If he is to be utilized immediately it will most likely be in the "Wild Horses" formation, and in short yardage or goal line situations. Under NFL rules this will necessitate him being listed as our #2 QB, and either Quinn or Brandstater as the #3, whose appearance in the game would preclude the starter’s (presumably Orton) return. This is the same as Vick for Philly last year, and hopefully won’t spur any unrealistic "Quarterback Controversy." Whether or not it should, that controversy will most likely exist anyway.
In any case, my hope is that some day he will succeed. I salute his statements thus far, as well as his proposal to stay in Denver on his own dime and learn the playbook before mini-camp and contract signing. I have a suspicion that he will walk the walk that accompanies his talk. If he works 2/3 as hard as promises he offers the potential to develop into at least as competent a QB as the recently departed Jay Cutler, with leagues more potential as a leader of men—the area where Jay disappointed me most.
Let us hope that Tebow proves his legion of detractors wrong, and let us give him some time to develop. The model of QB development that I grew up with in the 70s entailed two to three years on the bench before being thrust into the role of starter. We, as Bronco fans, are truly blessed to have an owner in Mr. Bowlen who has proven not only to be patient and not a meddler, but a man of vision and devotion to success. I was never a huge fan of Aaron Rodgers, either, but time to mature under veteran tutelage apparently served him well.
"Reasonable expectations well met" is a recipe for success in the world of sales and business. Let us fans have those reasonable expectations, and let us hope that Tebow’s seemingly indomitable will to succeed prevails someday. Meanwhile, let us look for Orton’s continued progress, along with the success of our FA acquisitions on defense and a rebuilt OL giving us more consistent success on the field next year. I expect a finish around 10-6 (though my heart always says 13-3 this time of year, no matter whether or not 12-4 has proven less jinxed in the past), and a first round play-off victory in 2010.
MHR is not for the band-wagoners. Josh McDaniels has no more mortgaged his future with the selection of Tebow that did Mike Shanahan with his various first-round reaches (see Marcus Nash, Willie Middlebrooks, Ashley Lelie, George Foster or Jarvis Moss). I firmly believe that Mr. Bowlen has faith in McDaniels, and so should we as Bronco Fans. Let us not get wrapped up in the fallacy fueled by the MSM that portrays the selection of Tebow as "make or break." Instead, let’s hope Tim can overcome the shortfalls in his game through hard work and determination (which history suggests he has at least a puncher’s chance of doing), and eventually becomes a key contributor on a TEAM bound for glory.
Broncos Über Alles
by Zadogeist on Apr 25, 2010 7:05 PM MDT reply actions 25 recs
BRO...what a great post...VERY rec'd.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Now you got me researching bat's piss.. just wow....
Nice point on the rule-driven specification as the # 2 if TT used in the Whild Horses. I wasn’t up to speed on that. Totally agree that we have not mortaged our future- this is not an all-in bet.
Small technicality
the rule that you mention – insertion of #3 QB precludes return of starter – only applies if the #3 QB is listed as the Emergency QB, or the 46th man. If the #3 QB is part of the 45 man roster there is no such restriction.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Apr 25, 2010 7:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Was just goona say that
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
A fair point...
However, as I understand the roster norm to be, that will be the case.
Broncos Über Alles
Love the Monty Python Reference
And my own dearly departed father (he didn’t die – he just departed) used to do what he called ‘visiting Dr. Daniels’ on occasion to make decisions. Seemed to work for him ;-) I’m glad that you enjoyed the article and thank you for a well-thoughtout anc cogent discussion. Cheers!
It all starts with the lines
Can all 3
Be on the field at the same time? Seems like we have a lot of good young athletes here.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
Yes
As long as they are all part of the 45 man game day roster and none is the emergency QB (which would be the 46th player)
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
All three on the field at the same time isn't Wild Horses
I believe they call that The Rodeo!
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
lol
I was just attempting satire, see where it get’s me? I do love the thought of Orton under center with Tebow on the field as well, the kid can run. Can he catch?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
While almost no one uses those types of gimmicks
They surely are fun to think about and even diagram. It would confuse the defense – heck, it might confuse the offense ;-). Sure would be a hoot to see once in a while.
It all starts with the lines
AGREED! lol
If the offense is confused, doesn’t that GUARANTEE the defense will be?
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
by BroncTastic on Apr 26, 2010 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Great response man! Rec'd
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
Weatherspoon for 2010! And at #11 if need be!
by Alexander Wall on Apr 25, 2010 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions
+1
for the whole thing, and for helping me understand how I feel with this:
“The selection of Tebow was one that I had reservations about on a number of grounds: The gimmick offense in college, the unconventional throwing motion, the picks sacrificed to select him, the expectations attendant to the round in which he was selected, and frankly, his overtly evangelistic persona all made me leery. However, after a night of bourbon-fueled reflection with my fellow die-hard buddies I awoke Friday with at least a sense of hope for the future.”
Excellent stuff!
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
help, help i'm being repressed
Silly to call this one pick ‘do or die’ unless it sets us back so far it kills us!
It can only do that if Tebow starts too soon, fails …and in turn causes Orton to thereby fail in the midst of the team’s obvious vote of no confidence . As I have no faith in the other two fellows saving the day… this is a real fear of mine. I had originally thought it’d be these first two drafts that would ‘do or die’ McX. Now There is another scenario. (’course this may be seen as another scenario for success as well…)
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 26, 2010 2:31 AM MDT up reply actions
EPIC comment
It’s been driving me nuts when I hear the punditocracy declare that Tebow has been put in the unfair position of carrying his HC’s fate on his back. That’s utter cr*p. McDaniels won’t be unleashing TT as a full time starting QB until he’s sufficiently coached up enough to match KO’s level of play, and KO is coming off his best statistical season and only getting better. I love the competition we have at the position and expect dividends from at least that, if TT contributes nothing else this year.
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
by broncosmontana on Apr 27, 2010 7:16 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great post, as usual Doc! Rec'd.
Before I add this insight I would like to note before hand that it is not meant to refute Doc’s perspective (as he makes some very good and valid points) but just giving another point of view on the issue.
But to be fair – Tebow has tried once, unsuccessfully, to change his throwing motion. It’s very diffferent issue to be able to use a motion in a practice setting and to use it with large angry men bearing down on you at high speed. The last time it was attempted, he wasn’t able to use the new motion in game settings. What is in his favor is that he has a lot more time, in this case, to make the motion automatic. Muscle memory takes a lot of time to develop. Hopefully that will work out. I won’t assume that it will, but I will hope that it does.
From a psychological point of view, I wanted to add the dimension of “associative processing” which actually may help us here in Tebow’s situation. The guy has very little (if any) experience dropping back from under center, as well as several other things in regards to reads of pro defenses, and other mechanics issues. We all know this, this was the downplayer in the MSM classification of him as a non-proready Quarterback.
The fact that he’s had almost zero experience here actually helps us more than it hurts it. McDaniels has very specific things he requires of his Quarterbacks pre-snap, as well as post-snap (mechanics fall into the post-snap category). The reason having no experience may help him is because there are no bad habits. Most of the anti-Tebow population believes his Shotgun mechanics will carry over as bad habits. But realistically, Tebow is entering a whole new world here.
From my experience in the Marines as I was going through bootcamp (as well as afterwards in the fleet) some of the very best shooters were guys (and girls) that had never fired a weapon before. They had no bad habits. So when they were coached up, they were coached up properly. It made for very effect marksmanship. I think the same may be true of Tebow here. Let me explain. Tebow will be doing a TON of knew things pre-snap. Things that most Quarterbacks are not doing, even some in the NFL aren’t doing. All of these pre-snap mental queue’s and actions may make for a solid foundation to build a new set of behaviors. Tebow has been working on a set of new mechanics, that many believe he will lose and not use in the face of adversity, but I do not agree. I think that he’s going to associate these new mechanics with – essentially – his new position: A McDaniels system Pro-Quarterback. Of course his personality and style of play will be a part of anything he does… but I don’t think he’s going to rely on his past mechanics as many as most people think.
To get back to the post though, I do believe Doc’s words are absolutely necessary right now. We do need to temper the crowd abit. I am more excited than most about Tebow coming in here, but I’m also trying to stay realistic. We need to view everything on a level plane here. I am extremely hopeful for Tim’s success here in Denver, but it’s VERY wise to have the concerns that Doc has brought to light, even if they may amount to nothing at all.
Hope for the best – be prepared for the worst. Its a saying that can be applied to almost any area of life, and one that I greatly value.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
Weatherspoon for 2010! And at #11 if need be!
by Alexander Wall on Apr 25, 2010 7:14 PM MDT reply actions 8 recs
Great post...and good point on having NO bad habits..
The Chinese are doing it with snowboarders. they are taking gymnasts with acrobatic background, outting them on snow and basically building half pipe riders.
they already have the inherent acrobatic movements, but no bad FOUNDATION habits. In 4 years, they put 2 girls in the Olympic finals, with one girl finishing 4th.
Impressive…they have not style per se…but they are GOOD riders…style will come!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Interesting tidbit Boydy. I never heard of that, but it definitely makes sense.
I’m sure there are also plenty more situations and stories that illustrate the concept I was trying to explain here. It’s pretty common place, and associative behaviors (including “muscle memory” and mental tendencies) are very well researched and docuemented in the Psychological world – as that was really one of the only things they had to work on before modern medical technologies were discovered.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
Weatherspoon for 2010! And at #11 if need be!
by Alexander Wall on Apr 25, 2010 7:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Glad that you enjoyed it, Marine
I know what you mean. I loved swing dancing, and found difficulty translating to other systems. I’d gotten so entrenched in the neauological grooves of that system that similar rhythms in different music brought that one out everytime. I’d get black belts from other, quite different systems, and while they’d create approached that made them more effective fighters, they would flunk the tests in our system that lesser students would pass easily.
Things on this old plane are just a bit more complex than our minds can always process. Sure is nice to have so many good ones to share with.
It all starts with the lines
Its hard not to enjoy what you write, haha.
Though I did like your old avatar better. Maybe that’s why you don’t get any negative comments, the bear scared them away, lol. Though you probably wouldn’t get a good review from Steven Colbert, not that he pays attention to sports anyways… haha.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
Weatherspoon for 2010! And at #11 if need be!
by Alexander Wall on Apr 25, 2010 7:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Great read, Doc
And one can only hope that we’ll hear no more comments like: “Tebow has fixed his mechanics!” or “Now that Tebow has fixed his mechanics, he should be the starter in Jacksonville!”
Alas, the IRRLTT&WTHHB Club being what it is, I expect to hear more of that nonsense.
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
A okay brother.
It seems whenever a QB is selected in the first round, homers like me, feel like its Christmas and I get giddy and happy and merry. lol
To me, TT is a SB QB til he ain’t. And if he isn’t the starter by 2012, he ain’t….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
What disturbs me
is the inevitable and constant distraction that will be laid out against McD and Tebow by the MSM. It may not be as distracting this season, but I’d imagine, that after 2 years in Denver, the media will be looking to crucify McD if Tebow is not the starting QB and performing above and beyond current expectations.
McD has put himself in the cross-hairs of the media (probably not intentionally) and the situation invites constant evaluation, whether he likes it or not.
I personally have nothing against Tebow. I believe that in time, he has the work ethic to improve and contribute in a positive way. What concerns me is the constant drama we as Bronco fans will have to deal with, because of the media’s expectation that a 1st round QB be placed on the field ASAP. Perhaps 2010 will be manageable – but beyond this season, I can’t say.
I sure hope the impending drama won’t affect the team’s focus. Perhaps with the veteran leadership that we have in place in the locker room, it will only fuel them to prove the naysayers wrong.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
To think McD does not know this is a little naive...
He of course knows this…just shows us that he REALLY believes that Tebow could be that good to hang himself, the franchise and Tebow out there!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
McD
I was hoping that this season, he’d exert most of his energy on improving our offense an help them avoid the implosion we witnessed in December and January. Now, he’ll have to spend more time working with at least 1 developmental QB in addition to doing all that.
We can kid ourselves all we want – this Tebow pick will be a distraction from the media this year and get even more intense when they realize that Tim won’t start any time soon. They’ll be taking aim at McD with the thought that he made a huge gamble and failed at selecting Tebow in the 1st round.
I hope he’s ready for it.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
One thing that will take attention away from Tebow is....
for the Broncos to be successful. I think they will be successful in winning games this year – this could serve as an extra incentive.
McD and Orton are in a tough spot
If Tebow sees the field this year, it’s a reflection of Orton and casts a doubt on his return to the team. The media will be all over McD and interrogate Orton about his future. On the other hand, if Tebow does not see the field this year, then the question will be whether McD made a rash decision in selecting a QB so high in the draft.
It’s a classic “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. And McD and Orton will be dragged into the center of it, complements of the drive by media.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
And McD, at least, won't really know or care ;-)
I still laugh whenever I think that he has an assistant tasked with reading such nonsense, so that he doesn’t waste his own time on it. It’s the perfect way to deal with the idea that fans’ feelings should matter in how he runs the team.
Since the dice are loaded anyway – refuse to roll them. Move forward with whatever you think is the best way to proceed, and don’t bother to waver. Once you’re thought something through carefully and reached your best decision – implement it and move on. You’ll sleep better, and the people that you lead will catch onto and trust that.
It all starts with the lines
Right, this disregard for outside pressure gives me hope! As i get a chance to reread all of the above, your "take a deep breath" paragraph is really key.
You so matter of factly list TT as a 4th stringer who won’t see the field soon (this year?) and will be given the time (and 10k+ reps with the knew stroke) to enter into the fold more timely & practically.
It’s been proven (thank God) that McD doesn’t fold to media or fan pressure. I’d really like to be confident that he’s not going to be pressured from above or from within to reject logic and be tempted to disrupt the proper order of things by rushing the boy onto the field too soon. …thereby possibly ruining KO, TT and then setting the team back years (again imo) in one fell swoop.
I think I could say the same thing in a 3rd different way lol – Is Tebow REALLY going to sit and learn for as long as it takes? For this not to be so (IMO!) makes an already crazy pick that much more likely to fail. Can anybody reassure me?
BTW: To be fair, if he is given the time required to get a fair shot at the NFL… I like his chances and wouldn’t be all that upset at McX even if he failed. The upsides of this kid making it (under those circumstances) are worth the risk and sky high.
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 26, 2010 2:18 AM MDT up reply actions
Press Conferences should be fun to watch this year
where neither McD, nor Orton will be able to hide from media fever. Get your lawn chair ready, doc. This year will be interesting.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
Can you say
Plummer/Shanahan/Cutler, circa 2006? To the 100th power?
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
One last thing Em...
Mark Schlereth once said of Terrel Davis, “He wasn’t just a running back, he was a football player.” A Football player. Tim Tebow, to me, doesn’t appear to be just a quarterback, he’s a football player. Yet it’s what resides in his heart, the desire, that will likely make him successful in this league.
I’m going to be excited about Tim Tebow and remain excited. Something tells me he may have well been the safest pick in this draft. Or I could be orange and blue drunk. :) My gut usually doesn’t lie to me though…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Apr 25, 2010 9:35 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree Tim...I TRIED to be pissed when we picked him...but I felt at ease....hes a straight out football player!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
No kidding...He seems like a coach's dream
freakish athlete
very hard working
extremely committed
leadership abilities
Great article and rec'd sir...
I don’t get the reasoning behind the rush to start syndrome. What up with that? When Jay Cutler was drafted in 2006 he didn’t start until mid season and even then I thought it was agross mistake on Shanahan’s part. These quarterbacks coming out of college need time to adjust to the game a whole lot more than say a RB who can come in and learn on the fly, even then they struggle at times witht he speed of the nfl.
Drafting Tebow at 25 with a brilliant tactical move even when we have a starter and a potential starter in the house. Not too many people saw the move coming and in the back of my mind I knew he was something speciall and something McD would love to have and teach. Awesome coach, I love your style man and keep up the great work.
WOW !
The football knowledge that can be found for free on this site is stunning! Great article Emmett and rec’d.
Your technical analysis of TT’s strengths and weaknesses relative to his past and future roles was very well formulated and actually left me feeling better about TT’s future prospects.
Thanks !!
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Apr 25, 2010 10:03 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I second that asinsoin
Great article and a really great discussion.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Apr 25, 2010 10:51 PM MDT up reply actions
You'll love it here Vance
welcome
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Apr 26, 2010 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Great post Em
This is why I just love this MHR. I mean you get great discussions like this and come out with a whole bunch of knowledge. Also, thanks boydy for your comments above…..they helped as well.
People are all over Tebow and don’t seem to mention the work ethic, determination, and drive this kid has. I mean for crying out loud these critics need to give him some credit.
Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.
2009 NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
Emmit, I didn't have time to finish reading your post and was scrolling down to note how informative it was and how much I looked forward to studying it ...and that's taken a half hour of thinking the same about so many of the posts below it!!
Props to ES and the many others who’ve posted here a ton of GREAT stuff and almost the only stuff that didn’t thoroughly irritate me since the draft!!
I look forward to getting back to this one and soaking it in…
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 25, 2010 11:28 PM MDT reply actions
I didn't think we'd pick Tebow
because I wasn’t sold on him, but felt that if we did it would mean McDaniels saw something in him. In fact it looks like he made getting him the centerpiece of his draft strategy. I expected us to draft Pouncy first and, who knows, we might have if he’d slid past Pittsburgh. But getting Tebow was clearly more important. By trading back twice, all the way to the 24th spot, McDaniels gathered enough ammunition to make sure he got Tebow. One guy who surprise surprise doesn’t like Tebow feels that Denver’s pick was the biggest reach of the draft. That’s an exaggeration, but it seems to me if there’s one guy in the draft you don’t want to leave without it’s worth playing it safe and going a little bit higher than you absolutely have to.
That McDaniels likes Tebow a lot is now obvious, and it’s a pretty good recommendation. I’ve been concerned, maybe too much, with his mechanics. Because his intangibles, his will to make himself whatever he wants to be, are off the chart. Not all players with an outstanding work ethic and will to win have become great, but I’d bet that there are few if any greats that lack them. Tebow is like Dumervil in that his on-field results belie his supposed lack of the means to achieve them. I hope Tebow continues to be as good at finding ways to win as Doom is at finding ways to sack quarterbacks.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Apr 26, 2010 5:07 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
"That McDaniels likes Tebow a lot is now obvious, and it’s a pretty good recommendation"
That’s the best reason I can think of to support him! …overshadowing the many to think otherwise.
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 26, 2010 6:31 AM MDT up reply actions
"Tebow is like Dumervil in that his on-field results belie his supposed lack of the means to achieve them."
Great connection.
Didn’t Dumervil only make it to the 4th round because so many experts were convinced his limitations would hinder him in the NFL, even though he had turned that concept on its ear with his college performance. Lets hope he can make the experts eat their words.
"It's the first time that I've probably ever seen a 260 pound back run into a free safety and go flat on his back, I mean it was exciting." ~John Elway
Great post Emmett
I was very unhappy with this pick at first seeing him as a project QB instead of someone ready to play by mid season. I don’t have a lot of knowledge on what it takes to become a solid or good QB yet he does appear to have two very import ingredients to ensure that if he has the talent he will make it and that is dedication and work ethic. At least draft day 1 was exciting.
"Iron sharpens Iron."
Thanks as usual, Emmett
And all you other MHRs, especially those who actually saw this coming. After B. Quinn came aboard, I think the last thing I expected was a fourth QB option this high in the draft. As usual, McX managed to surprise me. That said, if you’re going to have serious depth at one position, it might as well be the big one, right?
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
ditto...i crossed all my QBs off the list.
i didnt expect McD to fall in love with Tebow….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Excellent, as usual
Thank you for the knowledge imparted in this post. I appreciate all the time and effort you put into creating your posts for us here at MHR. Like azdenfan above, I wasn’t expecting a Tebow selection because we already had three QB’s on board who aren’t junk. It doesn’t mean I’m unhappy with drafting him, I was just not expecting it. I like Tebow and the baller traits he will bring to the locker room and the field. I also appreciate his personality and character and am looking forward to the good things he will do for this community. It’s going to be interesting to see if and how he pans out in the NFL. I’m rooting for him, that is for sure.
My only frustration right now is the media’s “Let’s talk about Tebow all… the… time, so we can get ratings!” mentality. If it’s getting old right now, imagine what it’s going to feel like when they just… won’t… stop. We DID draft eight other players, right? :o)
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
Excellent read Bear! Got a question however....
One thing I didn’t see was an opinion of how you feel if he’s used in certain short yardage situations. Do you really think he should be held completely out until ready?
I know I don’t. He gets his introduction to game day speed in the NFL, and we have a much improved short yardage offense, simply because he’s on the field. It’s the threat that he can run that will make defenses play differently. He doesn’t have to actually run all the time, but the threat is there, as opposed to when KO is on the field…. Seems like a win-win on that, but my mind is open to other viewpoints.
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009...Boy, was I wrong or what?
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Todd I think that this one is very interesting
One issue is that there will be the inevitable fan outcry – if you put TT on the field in some capacity othr than QB, are they changing him? Does that move him ahead of the other two QBs? Are you exposing him to injury as well as game speed (one of the tough parts of running a Wild Horses scheme at times is that your’e always putting your QB into more of harm’s way than the position usually entails – which is tough enough.
But McD won’t really care what others think. I do suspect that, at least for a while, TT is best off working full time on the changes that he needs to make in terms of his motion, under center footwork and ability to read defenses. If he has to throw in a game setting before the muscle memory has fully been interated, you might see his mechanics revert, and that’s one of my biggest concerns, as it could put him back quite a ways. There are pros and cons to it, but it’s certainly an interesting approach. I wouldn’t be opposed to letting the other two QBs into this, if the team decided to go with it. Quinn is more mobile than Orton, Brandstater is about the same as Kyle, TT is more mobile than Quinn. If Quinn is the current #2, do you get him into the game?
It’s going to be one heck of an interesting year!
It all starts with the lines
Thanks! It certainly will be an interesting year!
I think in the Wild Horses formation, you could be right, but I would still have him specifically line up as the QB….not out at WR like KO did….In fact, we wouldn’t even need to run the WH formation, we just have him in at QB in a regular formation….the run threat he provides can make the difference.
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009...Boy, was I wrong or what?
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Couldn't say it better myself Bear
The best thing for Tebow is to really internalize his new mechanics and footwork, while learning the speed of the game in practice and maybe a few discrete on-field situations. If he gets the footwork and mechanics cleaned up, the sky is the limit for this kid.
Thanks, cj - I always have appreciated your perspectives and knowledge.
It all starts with the lines
Nice post Emmett
Fair and objective!
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Enjoyed the post Doc
I’m not sure there’s a person on the planet better equipped to develop Tim Tebow than our own Josh McDaniels. It will take patience, though. And I’m really hoping Orton has a great season so that we don’t have to hear fans prematurely calling for The Tebow.
Another good season from Kyle should also assist us in getting good trade value for him. I’d really like to see him taken care of by working a deal with a team that he would like to go to, and ensuring that they offer him a long term deal. I guess we’d probably have to franchise KO before trading him (like NE did with Cassel), but I just don’t see how we can extend his contract under the current situation.
Give me impact at center, copmetence at guard and an upgrade at linebacker - sprinkle in strides from having the same system for two years in a row - and I'll show you a contender!
totally agree about Orton
I hope Kyle has a great season as well in 2010. If he stays healthy and continues to improve he could easily throw for 4500 yards; 25/28 TDs; and lead the Broncos to the playoffs.
Just a terrific analysis, Doc
So what else is new? I don’t know what I will see happen first: You write a bad report or a pig that flies.
I gave the Broncos an absolute “F” on the Tebow selection. I believe Tebow will make it in the NFL as a quarterback. Not an elite quarterback, but a quarterback. The number one thing a QB has to do is to pass well . . . something at which Tebow is marginal. Yes, he had a high completion rate in college. In college. College is not the NFL. Pinpoint accuracy is far more important because coverage is tighter and action is far faster.
At this point, Tebow reminds me of Bradlee Van Pelt: A fierce competitor, a fantastic athlete, a superb running QB, whose passing skills are . . . meh. Were the schools reversed between the two, I wonder if the results would not still be the same.
In his passing, Tebow reminds me of Joe Kapp, a QB who played for the Minnesota Viking some years ago. Kapp’s passes weren’t pretty. I don’t know that Kapp ever threw a tight spiral. He just got it there, somehow.
I just don’t believe Tebow is going to be a savior to any team. He will be a solid QB who will do okay.
To what I believe, few will agree, I think. I believe Orton will keep Tebow on the bench unless and until Orton leaves . . . that is, if the position is treated fairly . . . which there is going to be tremendous pressure to play the #1 draft choice. (I think that is why Orton was dumped at first for Grossman.) Orton is by far the better passer. Yes, Tebow can run rings around Orton . . . but then, so can Knowshon Moreno, and Moreno is not going to play QB anytime soon.
So there it is, FWIW . . .
-
BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!
A Quandry!!
When (?) Orton takes the Broncos deep into the playoffs this year, How do you NOT offer him a 2-3 yr deal?
Second Thought – Let the MSM games begin. The rookie OTAs begin this Friday, with players reporting Thursday for the Rookie orientation, physicals etc.
Thanks Doc for another not only well written but thoughtful post. (by the way what are the San Diego media saying about TT and the Bolts Draft?)
To accomplish great things, we must not only act, but also DREAM; not only plan, but also BELIEVE.
They're saying about what Denver is saying about their draft
Almost nothing ;-) It will come in a little bit, when the writers are out of obvious subjects at home.
It all starts with the lines
It's not a popular sentiment, but Orton's day's are most certainly numbered
Obviously The Tebow won’t be ready to start anytime soon, but Coach McDaniels didn’t spend three draft picks on him just so he could ride the bench behind Kyle for the next three years either. Also, Orton’s value increases dramatically after another successful season. It’s doubtful he would sign a short contract extension (2-3 years) knowing that Tebow has a future in Denver and he doesn’t – also knowing that other teams will give him long term security.
After showing, for the second year in a row, that he’s a top-15 QB, he’ll have trade value. If Quinn, TB, or TT are ready to take over in 2011 Kyle will be franchised then traded. If nobody’s ready to take over for Orton (unlikely IMO), he’ll likely be franchised but not extended. The only other half-likely option I see, is to extend him by a single year right now. He would probably take the short extension now (with a lockout looming and before having two successful seasons under his belt to increase his suitors), but not after the season.
Give me impact at center, copmetence at guard and an upgrade at linebacker - sprinkle in strides from having the same system for two years in a row - and I'll show you a contender!
here's to hoping it plays out just like that. I hope he gets the time...
There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. -D.A.
by Whidbey Bronco on Apr 26, 2010 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Lots of recent examples of the vet staying around a few years when a 1st rd QB comes in
A 1st round QB will eventually get his shot, but not always in the 1st or 2nd year or even 3rd year, particularly when the vet is getting it done.
Absolutely
Very few coaches will pull a guy who’s getting it done for a new kid just because of where he was drafted. That would be the polar opposite of McD so far – Orton can create his own reality as far as his career goes, just by continuing to improve.
It all starts with the lines
Thanks for the research and perspective!
Highly rec’d!
I really like how you put the most crucial and seemingly ignored part at the end.
Kyle is Our starter.
First team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! and then some, right? I think four and someone else oughtta have a 'fair' shot ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Apr 26, 2010 3:28 PM MDT reply actions
OK, so here's my summation of Tebow:
Doug Fluties’ spirit, Randal Cunningham’s body. Personally I think the combination has a lot of potential.
LOVED EVERY WORD!!!
No time to comment but THANKS!!!
"All we're trying to do is win the *********** game!" -- Josh MF McDaniels tearing into his offensive line after three false starts in the red zone. The tirade turned the tide of the game, and the Broncos dominated from that point on.
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