Denver Broncos Draft Strategy Part 1a - Josh McDaniels
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Each year, as draft day approaches, I try to figure out what the Broncos will do and who they will select. I found out last year that I knew far more about Mike Shanahan's draft tendencies than I did Josh McDaniels. The question of Josh McDaniels' mentality towards the draft began to haunt me many weeks ago.
How does one begin to mock up the draft when the teams Head Coach and General Manager have only been with the team a short amount of time? The pursuit of an answer to that question is what began my decent down into a rabbit hole that I have yet to escape from.
Each fact, correlation, or piece of information only raised more questions than it answered. The main question I sought any answer for was simple. Who will McDaniels and Xanders target in this years' draft? Ha! The answer might be simple...to them, but for an outsider like me it would be no easy task.
In fact, much of the research contained in this post and the next three was subjected to my own interpretation, for the only true answer lies within the minds of McDaniels and Xanders. My goal was to look at each of their professional histories - Josh McDaniels in New England and Brian Xanders in Atlanta.
Today we will examine Josh McDaniels' experience within the New England Patriots organization. My first subjective act was to assume that McDaniels has taken what he has learned in New England and brought it with him to Denver. Over time, I expect him to develop his own philosophy and tendencies, which will come with experience. Therefore, we must take a look at what he may have learned while in New England in order to hope to gain insight into his overall philosophy.
I have researched the Patriots drafts from 2001 to 2008, with a special emphasis on 2005-2008. I examined each position and each individual player from these drafts - correlating tangible data from each into a broad database of how Bill Belichek drafted during this time.
The analysis wouldn't be complete without throwing in the Denver Broncos 2009 draft. The result is a comprehensive analysis of the Bill Belichek-inspired draft philosophy that McDaniels has carried with him into Denver.
Again, allow me to reiterate that this analysis is by no means scientific nor are my conclusions pure fact. No one can know for sure the mind of Josh McDaniels except for Josh McDaniels, but what I am trying to do is understand the point of view of Josh McDaniels when approaching this years' draft.
Some of my findings are backed up more concretely than others, but I think the overall the picture of the 2010 draft is becoming a little clearer than it was a month ago. We all know and recognize the teams needs, but there is more at play than just pure need. In addition, much of the 2009 draft that left us scratching our heads actually makes a little more sense today.
Overview
The New England Patriots during Josh McDaniels tenure drafted, for the most part, intelligent and physical players. They would ignore injury concerns if the prospects checked out healthy in their physicals and drafted according to need more often than going after the best player on the board.
I will examine each individual position below, but overall, the Patriots focused their higher round draft picks on their offensive and defensive lines. They had six first round picks in McDaniels first five seasons with the team. They were as follows: DT, TE, DE, NT, TE, and OG. All six were "in the trenches" kind of players. Both tight ends were big physical blocking tight ends. I also found it interesting that the Patriots Super Bowl success began to erode after that last "in the trench" first round pick. From 2006-2008, they selected a RB, DB, and ILB. Not sure what the means, but it is obvious that they are no longer the juggernaut they once were.
It is that dedication to both fronts that impressed me the most. It has made me realize that perhaps the "sexy" pick is not the best pick.
For example, the Patriots in the second round drafted players mostly on the outside. Three wide receivers, two corners, a free safety, and two linemen. I like this approach. The fronts on both sides of the ball are far more important to winning than the outside players and by drafting interior linemen in the first and "skill" players in the second, you are still able to build a talented football team.
So far, the Broncos 2009 draft is shaping up to mimic the Patriots drafting successes of the early part of the last decade. In the first two rounds, McDaniels and Brian Xanders selected a RB and a DE/OLB in the first, and a CB, FS, and TE in the second. Richard Quinn was the top blocking tight end prospect in last years draft, so his second round status is nearly equal to the two first rounders the Patriots expended in years past on this position. The Broncos were also terribly thin at running back, so their hands may have been tied to Knowshon Moreno early on. Ayers, Smith, and McBath all fit the Patriots mold and draft strategies.
It's time to find out what can be learned for each position and how it might relate to future Bronco drafts.
Quarterbacks
The Patriots love taking big(6'3"-6'5" & 220+) quarterbacks in later rounds as much as Mike Shanahan used to love drafting obscure running backs in later rounds.
The difference being the Patriots had success. Tom Brady, Matt Cassell, and Kevin O'Connell have all contributed far more than their draft position should have allowed them to contribute.
Josh McDaniels carried that philosophy with him to Denver when he selected Tom Brandstater in the sixth round last year. It is unclear how Brandstater will work out, but he fits the Patriots profile to a T.
Common Traits:
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Big, mobile athletes
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Lots of potential, but tend to be raw and typically need a year or more to develop
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College experience tends to be in spread offenses or out of the shotgun
Analysis for 2010:
There are quite a few prospects that fit this profile very well. The big question is, how confidence does McDaniels have in Brandstater? If McD has questions about Brandstater, then look for a later round pickup to compete against Brandstater for a roster spot in training camp.
My prediction for the 2010 draft is that McDaniels and Xanders will target a quarterback in the 6th or 7th rounds.
Update: I started writing this series of articles in February, so you will see these kinds of updates throughout as I change my predictions due to signings or other moves the Broncos make. The trade for Brady Quinn all but negates any chance the Broncos draft a quarterback this year. I also believe the move to get Quinn was superior to any QB prospects on this board for the price the Broncos paid.
Potential Prospects that fit the McD mold:
Tim Tebow, Tony Pike, Dan LeFevour, John Skelton, Mike Kafka, Levi Brown, Tim Hiller
Offensive Tackles
The Patriots prefer to use the power run game and their selections of tackles in the draft show this. Not one tackle drafted by the Patriots weighed less than 300 pounds. The good thing for the Broncos and McDaniels is that they have no need for a starting tackle.
There is an issue with depth, however, so it will be important to look at late round prospects in this years' draft.
McDaniels and Xanders did not select a tackle in last years' draft, so we have no correlation to run with this position. We will assume that since McDaniels is running a system similar to New England and that he will target similar tackle prospects.
Common Traits:
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Big, physical specimens with room on their frames for additional bulk
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Prospects tend to be hard workers and versatile, playing all along the line
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Injury histories have been ignored by Belichek at this position
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Run blocking abilities take precidence over pass blocking skills
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Tend to reach at this position
Analysis for 2010:
I just do not see how the Broncos can pass on a tackle in this years draft. Depth is a major concern along the offensive line and the lackadaisical efforts during Free Agency to address these issues have left McDaniels and Xanders little choice here.
Potential Prospects that fit the McD mold:
Kyle Calloway, Ed Wang, Will Barker, J'Marcus Webb, Jeraill McCuller
Offensive Guards
The guard position is one that draft experts value almost not at all. However, this position is one of those positions that the Belichek ranks high in value, much like the tight end position. He consistently reached at this position.
I say reach, but I don't think selecting a now all-pro guard in the first round when he was "projected" to go in the third round is a reach at all. How valuable is an all-pro lineman?
That said, Josh McDaniels has followed Belichek's example in this regard as well. He selected Seth Olsen in the 4th round when Olsen was projected by some to not get drafted! McD does not care about best player available in later rounds, rather, he cares about what his team needs to be successful.
Obviously he had Olsen high on his draft board and didn't blink twice pulling the trigger.
Common Traits:
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Wide frames, thickness of lower body
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Aggressive attitudes, high emotions, & enjoy physicality
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Injury histories not a concern here
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Will reach, a lot, for the right player at this position
Analysis for 2010:
The 2009 Broncos had a major flaw last season, well lots of major flaws, but the guard position was one of them.
It is time for McDaniels to make the full transition from the zone-blocking scheme to the power run game. Guard must be addressed with that in mind. McD and Xanders could target anywhere in the draft for this position.
If Mike Iupati is not snatched up in the first round, then look for guard prospects in the second round or later that fit the power run attack and have the size (6'4" 310+) to match the Belichek/McDaniels philosophy.
Potential Prospects that fit the McD mold:
Mike Iupati, Vladimir Ducasse, John Jerry, Mike Johnson, Brandon Carter, Marshall Newhouse, Shawn Lauvao, Chris DeGeare, Brian Simmons, Sergio Render, Reggie Stephens
Offensive Centers
There isn't much draft history from the Patriots to correlate any data here. Judging by McDaniel's failed attempt to pick up a late round center last year, he may try again this year.
The two centers that were drafted in the period researched were smaller than one might expect(6'2" 290ish). Considering the huge hole at this position on the current roster, something has to give.
There are not many common traits to go on, so I decided to look at the free agents the Broncos have looked at so far this offseason as well.
Common Traits:
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Free Agents have tended to be bigger and more physical than the players drafted in years past - this could be an indication of where McX is going at this position
Analysis for 2010:
Despite the huge hole at this position, don't look for the Broncos too go big here. The team has too many needs elsewhere to devote a high draft pick this year.
They could address this position in future drafts, but for now, look to the 3rd-7th rounds for a serviceable center.
Potential Prospects that fit the McD mold:
Maurkice Pouncey, J.D. Walton, Matt Tennant, Eric Olsen, Erik Cook
Tight Ends
The tight end position is likely the most important offensive position in the McDaniels system. At least it is when you look at the Patriots and McDaniels draft histories.
During Josh McDaniels' eight year tenure with New England, Bill Belichek drafted no less than seven tight ends, including two; count 'em, TWO in the first rounds.
That is a stiff price to pay for such an unambiguous position. Therein lies the secret to the Patriots success, ball control and power run game - at least before they became a pass-heavy team. You know, when they were winning Super Bowls.
Many of us were shocked and even angry when Josh McDaniels trade up to the second round to draft some run blocking tight end no one had on their radar, yet if anyone had noticed this correlation last year they may have known about Richard Quinn.
Of those seven tight ends drafted in New England and the Quinn last year, not a single one weighed less than 250 pounds. Adieu Tony Scheffler, we barely knew ye.
Common Traits:
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Big, physical run blocking tight ends with adequate receiving skills
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McD's trade and reach for Richard Quinn is an indication he shares Belichek's views toward the tight end position
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Big frames, maintains position & sustains blocks - power run blockers
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Team will be aggressive with this position, borderline obsessive
Analysis for 2010:
My brain says the Broncos will not be drafting another tight end in 2010, but I cannot deny the strong correlation between McDaniels and the Patriots draft history.
If the Broncos select a tight end anywhere in the draft, I will not be surprised like I was last year. I now understand how important this position is to the McDaniels Way.
My prediction is that McX will not draft a tight end in this years' draft, but all bets are off in 2011!
Potential Prospects that fit the McD mold:
Jermaine Gresham, Rob Gronkowski, Anthony McCoy, Nate Byham, Michael Hoomanawanui
Wide Receivers
This position is one that does not rank very highly on draft day for the Patriots or McDaniels(so far). The Patriots had most of their success drafting wide outs in the second round, however, they had to dive into free agency to successfully address their needs at that position.
If Brandon Marshall departs, then this position becomes a priority in the second/third rounds. Judging by the drafting histories involved, wide receiver will not be a first round priority. Period.
Common Traits:
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Average height and weight in past draft selections(6'ish 210ish)
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A strong desire for deep threats over possession receivers
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Though the Patriots and McD have looked for players that possess both attributes
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Value prospects route running over hands
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Injuries not a concern at this position
Analysis for 2010:
The one thing that surprised me is the inactivity in the free agency market to acquire a solid wide receiver in case Brandon is dealt. Either this means the Broncos intend to keep Marshall regardless, or they have an eye on a few draft prospects that McX may reach for come the end of this month.
My prediction is that the Broncos will go wide receiver in the 4th through 7th rounds.
Potential Prospects that fit the McD mold:
Golden Tate, Damian Williams, Taylor Price, Carlton Mitchell, Andre Roberts, Jeremy Williams, David Gettis, Dezmon Briscoe, Danario Alexander, Emmanuel Sanders, Chris Carter, Verran Tucker, Kyle Williams
Running Backs
This is one position that Josh McDaniels broke from the Bill Belichek mold, showing me he has a mind of his own and over time he will shed his Patriot-philosophy in favor of his own philosophy.
The Patriots have a piss poor draft record for running backs. The problem was that they preferred big bruiser types over faster, lighter backs. Not one of the five running backs taken during McDaniels tenure weighed less than 220.
McDaniels broke the mold by selecting Knowshon Moreno. He could have followed his mentor's philosophy by taking Benie Wells, but didn't. Knowshon will develop into a solid running back and at 5'11", 210, is much lighter and quicker than the Patriot-mold of running backs.
Common Traits:
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So far, there are few common traits. Knowshon Moreno is unlike any of the previous Patriots draft picks at this position while McDaniels worked there. It could just be that the Patriots never had the chance to draft a player with as much talent as Moreno, though a case could be made that they flopped with Laurence Maroney.
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The Patriots scheme prefers big bruiser-like prospects, however, Belichek missed on most of his big back selections.
Analysis for 2010:
The Broncos are set at this position, but look for them to add depth through either free agency(JJ Arrington) or through the college free agency markets. I do not see the Broncos wasting a draft pick on a reserve running back. There are just too many other needs for the team to address.
Potential Prospects that fit the McD mold(late round prospects):
Lonyae Miller, Andre Anderson, Chris Browns, Keith Toston, Deji Karim
Conclusion
There are too many strong correlations between Josh McDaniels 2009 draft and other roster moves and how the Patriots had built a dynasty in the early part of the last decade for a guy like me to ignore. So far, I see a coach that has taken what works and discarded what hasn't worked from his mentor and friend, Bill Belichek.
It is clear to me that Josh McDaniels is attempting to build a run-oriented offense, similar to the one the Patriots ran with Corey Dillon. That's also the offense that won three Super Bowls.
The media, and their short term memory, believes McDaniels will attempt to employ the system he ran with Tom Brady, Randy Moss, and Wes Welker. I don't think they could be farther from the truth.
There has been much ado about the NFL becoming a pass heavy league and that the only way to win a Super Bowl is through the air. Like the belief that the Jets were an "aberration". Sorry, but I believe there is an ebb and flow to the NFL. 2009 was a passing year, 2010 could be a runners year. If I had to choose which type of offense the Broncos run, I'd pick the run over the pass. I'd pick ball control over three and outs.
Of course, none of what McDaniels does here will matter one iota without a championship defense to back them up. The Patriots defense of the early part of the last decade was phenomenal. That is priority #1 for McDaniels and Brian Xanders. Part 1b will be posted tomorrow and it will be all about defense, baby!
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Comments
On OT
When I saw J’Marcus Webb. I mind thought Jamarcus Russell. I’d better wake up a little more before I read this.
Derek Anderson is just as much a probowl quarterback as Jay Cutler
Well at Russell's weight, he'd probably make a better OT than a QB anyway. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
He's too slow. He lumbers like 350 pound NT....
We’ll meet halfway. How about a Center? He’s still “quarterbacking” the offensive line…so long as its not the Broncos line. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
His lack of accuracy would make the shot gun snaps an adventure every time – bad idea. I’d stick him at blocking TE like San Diego had with Maulauma.
In my opinion.
LMAO...just pictured that snap :P
"Brandon Marshall will be a happy BRONCO WR in 2010"
Broncotodd - 2009
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Great look at the past for the future
This was pretty informative, but while I’m sure he’ll use his Patriot background as a foundation, I hope he forms his own tendincies and drafting traits.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I agree and I think he already has with selection of Knowshon Moreno.
I wouldn’t mind him duplicating the Patriot Way at first though….it’s been a long time since we’ve seen the playoffs!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
interesting take on the correlations between his mentor and McD
I’m wondering how you go about factoring in Xanders’ ideas on players… As far as the Moreno stray from the mold pick… I hope he strays back.
I was surprised by your take on the centers, I’d like to think they’ll take the best G/C available early, with center being a real need. I very much like your emphasis on not forgetting the Tackle position. I don’t see us standing pat there.
I really think it’s a reach to dictate any ‘trends’ after only one draft of course but I found myself nodding my head as i read… I’m as excited about this draft as any i can recall! This one will tell us so much about our new leadership!
BTW Tiger just made one of the most incredible golf shots i’ve ever seen!
Tim, I agree with a lot of what you say.
This is an excellent post. Here are my thoughts:
1. The Patriots, frustratingly so for their fans, often went for best player available even when is caused position duplicity. Off the top of my head, it seems like they took a arse-load of tight ends for several years in a row.
2. I think McDaniels has indicated he intends to branch out a little from the Patriots philosophy. He has said he wants to use the TE’s we have differently, among other things.
3. I would not underestimate the importance of Wink being our defensive coordinator and how that might depart from traditional Patriots thinking. It seems like the Patriots defense is more subdued and the Ravens (Wink’s forte) are more attacking. Wink may want to go after a different style of defensive player than someone like Mike Nolan would have.
4. Implicit in your post is that we can’t draw as many conclusions for Bronco draft strategy from the 2009 draft versus the last decade of Patriots drafting. If this is your point then I totally agree with it. The 2009 draft, I think and apparently McX thinks, was more an anomaly and not the baseline for all future Bronco drafts.
5. I completely agree with your take on where we may be headed for the 2010 draft. The only disagreement I have is with your take on QB and RB. I don’t think we will be drafting a QB this year. I also think Buck can’t be relied upon to last a full season and it would be prudent of us to insure against that likely loss.
Good thoughts.
1. I got the sense that the Patriots and Belichek view TE as an intricate part of their scheme. It wasn’t just about BPA as it was finding the perfect combination of power run blocker and pass catcher. They appear to still be searching btw…too bad Shannon Sharpe retired. :P
2. If he intends too, I don’t think I’ve seen it. He looks like he will be discarding Schef in favor of the big blocking TEs…just like his mentor. lol I’m not sure I like it…TE’s can be very dangerous in the passing game – would hate to see our team handicapped by not having one.
3. I completely agree…which is why I stated I still have yet to escape from the rabbit hole.
4. We concur here too. McD came in last year and had a huge job to completely rebuild and change the culture of our team…2009 Draft was more about accomplishing that short term goal than any long term goals. With a few exceptions…
5. My prediction on QBs was made before the Brady Quinn trade. I too think we’re set for now… :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Patriots and BPA
The Patriots are not a team that traditionally has drafted BPA, picks that were purely need based and not really BPA players include Meyo, Merriweather, Maroney, Warren and Graham. Mankins could be termed BPA but was also a need position.
Belichick has however been a master of moving around in the draft so a player drafted for need is not a big reach.
Recipes...
are not made with certain ingredients, but the right brand of ingredient. I trust McX can value the BPA in the need vs talent argument. The considered “reaches” by McX last yr (A Smith & Quinn), need to be gauged as a true value of the need. Falling in love with 1 player b/c he does things you think are the best, should not inadvertently affect the remainder picks. All I mean is, I hope McX choose wisely in deciding when to “reach” for a player.
However, the strength of this draft will be interesting to see how they react to it. It seems to me that moving down is the right play in order to accumulate picks vs what we did last yr. Cant wait.
Yeah, I wasn't too fond of our trades in 2009 either...
My hope is that both Xanders and McD learned from that experience and will be much more patient this time around.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
To be honest, Smith was not considered a reach at #37 last year – a lot of draft guys were speculating he’d be a 2nd round pick. Also, most of these same guys had Quinn rated in round 3, so that is not much of a reach either. None of McX picks were huge reaches save maybe Olsen.
The problem is that we didn’t have a pick at #37 last year so we had to horse trade with 2010 picks. And McX had but just a short window to scout for the 2009 draft. That factor alone should have pointed to them tip-toeing gently into the 2009 draft, but they instead elected to dive in head first without looking to see how deep the pool was.
We made FIVE draft picks in rounds 1 and 2 of the 2009 NFL draft. FIVE!!!! We may never have that many early picks again in my lifetime. Those picks better damn well payoff in the near future of we will remember that draft as a sad day in Bronco history.
In my opinion.
Smith wasn't technically a reach, but my context was in
we actually paid the Seahawks the #14th pick in the draft for Smith. That’s the reach I was referring too. The picks we traded away to move up to get Quinn also consistutes a reach to me.
And you are 100% right…at least two of those five picks better freakin’ pay off or it will be a disaster. The Patriots had an 88% success rate drafting in the first round while McD was there…..the only “bust” was Maroney. The rest became starters, and many All-Pros.
I like Knowshon and Ayers alot though…I think Ayers will be a huge player for us in the future. The second round picks though….I’m shooting for one of them to work out long term…that woudl be enough for me. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Was Smith a reach at #37 overall in the 2009 draft? Not at all.
Was Smith a reach at 14 overall in the 2010 draft? Yes – a massive reach.
In my opinion.
Exactomundo!
Would I rather have the #14 pick in this years draft or Smith? Hmm…with the deepest draft in 10 years…I think I’d rather have our #14 back. I like Smith, so don’t get me wrong…but I’d also like to take Iupati and Pouncey or one of those two and Dan Williams…sigh
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
In hindsight
would I take this years #14 over Smith? Probably yes. Just looking at Smith’s scouting report and college production (one of the greatest college CBs of all time) and with a reasonable belief that the pick would not be that good (the Broncos sure looked good at the beginning of the season)? Tougher call. That’s all the info that was available when the Broncos had to decide on the trade. I’d consider it a bit of a reach, but not a Raiders level one. You know, comparable to if they picked Pouncey of Iupati at 11 this year. ;)
No one reaches like the Raiders. I’m pretty sure they don’t scout beyond the 40 times of college prospects.
They must have a scouting budget of like $42 dollars to spend on nothing but stop watches.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Apr 8, 2010 4:59 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
And a tape measure to measure how far someone can throw the ball.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
no one reaches like the Raiders!
And yet they’ve been able to beat us twice over the last two years.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Raiders are a sleeping giant, IMO
don’t know how they do it, but even with the Jamarcus fiasco and other bad decisions, they should not be taken lightly.
Teach us, Lord, to meet adversity; but not before it arrives.
The Talmud
Noooo.. We overrate them only because they play us hard in Denver.
Noooo.. We overrate them only because they play us hard in Denver.They are awful. They have nothing a WR, O-line or QB. Their D is okay, but nothing special. They likely have the least talented NFL head coach over the last decade.
Noooo.. We overrate them only because they play us hard in Denver.They are awful. They have nothing a WR, O-line or QB. Their D is okay, but nothing special. They likely have the least talented NFL head coach over the last decade.They will finish in the bottom ten yet again in 2010.
In my opinion.
But they don’t beat anyone else. If beating a mediocre Denver team is your only accomplishment of note… well….
All I know is that the Faiders end up drafting the Top 10 for the last several years running…. and have nothing to show for it as far as good prospects on the roster.
In my opinion.
Raiders
beat the Bengals, Steelers, and Eagles last year (plus the Chiefs and Broncos)
Teach us, Lord, to meet adversity; but not before it arrives.
The Talmud
Good point
In hindsight it doesn’t look good, but to add to your point about the info available when they made the pick they also didn’t know it would be pick #14. They were planning on it being closer to 32 as the goal was to make the playoffs and hopefully put together a run when we got there.
In hindsight, I don’t think McX makes that move again. In the moment though it wasn’t that bad of a move. It just didn’t pan out. In a decade perhaps people will be talking about what a great move it was. Smith could still turn out to be a quality player, you never know.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
what the Alphonso Smith pick was worth on Dec. 9
Just for the record, we were in the 23 – 27 tied group, so the value of the pick was around where we had rated Smith. The discounting rate for next year’s picks is a round (4th now for 3 rd next year) or a half round in the 1st (low 1st now for high first next year). It was looking like we might get a no-interest loan for the use of Smith for a year, which is remarkable.
no goats, no glory.
It was looking like we’d make the playoffs until we crashed and burned. Woulda coulda shoulda.
We traded away the 14th pick in an fantastic draft for a guy that rides pine like it’s his job. Nothing remarkable about that.
In my opinion.
It's on a par with the current discounting rate
People argue with the discounting rate but it’s the going rate for value this year versus next year. We can’t say where the personnel people valued Smith but Kiper’s conjecture that we saw him him in the 20s appears to be approximately correct, since it explains why they would make the move and agrees with McDaniels’ preference for smaller CBs (assuming his preference is similar to New England’s).
The discounting rate for a player in the 20s is more than what we gave up (we got him cheaper). The discounting rate for a player at #33 (Wright, CBS had #34) is a half round, so we wound up paying the going rate, assuming he’s rated according to credible sites, even though indications are that we valued him higher.
The terms of the trade are not controversial according to established discounting rates. Some of the analysis — from otherwise reliable sources, at least for scouting — was extremely poor. Mayock (if I recall correctly) dismissed the trade under the top ten draft pick criteria, which is a salary effect that only applies for same year picks. Other variants of the top ten pick draft criteria (or ‘impact criteria"), such as the ’must be an elite CB type to warrant a high pick’ desideratum, also invalidly use same year criteria for a pick from the following year. What’s at issue is not whether the top ten pick criteria or the elite CB high pick criteria are valid (they are) but of whether we can pretend it’s already next year and we can evaluate the selection as if interest on the loan doesn’t apply.
In essence, complaints about the trade fall into the category of expecting the Broncos to wait, stockpile picks, and refrain from trading future picks away. We were expected to lose and accept our ‘fate.’ And resisting our fate as a loser was — purportedly — yet another sign of our being badly managed. In other words, it was even more proof that we were indeed losers. This attitude should be understood in the context of Cutlergate and the prevailing belief (which infected otherwise reliable sources) that the Bronco management had bungled the handling of Cutler and was in the process of making other mistakes. In other words, groupthink and bad reporting had swayed analysts. Analysts who saw Cutlergate in a different light, such as Trent Dilfer, also saw the trade in a different light.
Curiously, few people would ‘undo’ the Cutler trade now, but the makeup call that would correct the mistaken original analysis didn’t appear. Likewise, one of the predominant reasons for disliking the Smith trade was the fact that we traded away our pick rather than Chicago’s. Likewise, the makeup call for disliking the trade because we gave away an expected higher pick never materialized. Those who disliked the trade continued to dislike the trade and merely shifted their reasons when the original reason for disliking the trade proved false. This type of phenomenon is common and is consistent with the axiom that “people make up their minds and find reasons later.” And in this case, they find new ones.
The appraisal of this year’s draft as “fantastic” is another example of a poor reasoning — it’s a trope. The flood of declaring underclassmen never developed. We had 2 more declarees than two years ago (40 v. 38, as I recall), so it’s a good year but hardly the tsunami of declarees that had been predicted, and the belief in the tsunami has persisted in part because it is a good year (with qualifications). There’s valid reasons for liking both the depth and top flight talent (some of it) but sweeping generalizations about draft crops are partly hyperbole. I won’t discuss every position but this year’s crop is clearly not as strong at OC or QB. Some positions are on a par with last year, such as CB, but have developed late (players such as Kyle Wilson moved to the 1st). The overall depth is slightly better (it’s hard to surpass 37 but there’s a little more quality), but the point is that comparisons between ranges is extremely problematic. The ‘shape’ of this year’s crop is very similar to last year’s so the selections available at a high range (the range Smith was taken) are comparable. The depth of the entire CB crop is better but you don’t draft an entire crop. It’s ONLY a relevant issue if you’re drafting later, because the number of quality CBs extends further down in the draft. Teams that have the room on their roster and the desire to develop (often fairly high CBs) players can take advantage of this depth but teams looking to draft CBs in the ‘more elite’ range have to get in earlier or miss out, and this applies equally to this year and last. Players that project as starter-quality are in the first two rounds, or so, of the draft (tier 1 & 2).
The argument against the Smith trade is subjective. The consensus is that it would have been better to wait and use the pick this year, and this attitude was influenced by the belief that we were a bad team. It also reveals as strong preference for ‘later’ versus ‘now." Fans were willing to undergo a long rebuilding process and would accept losing as long as there were steps being taken to ensure future success. This long-term view is unusual since most teams’ fans are clamoring for success now, and I attribute it to the twin psychological effects of the Shanahan firing and Cultergate. Neither the long-term nor short-term view are correct in a technical sense — they are merely values/choices. Moreover, from a long-term planning perspective, there are risks associated with waiting, because the opportunity to groom prospects is a closing window that closes completely if you wait too long, so the notion that values necessarily increase by waiting is wrong. This is the rebuilding fallacy that says that if you’re bad enough; you must get better. It’s only necessarily true if you hit rock bottom. Aiming for the bottom so you can get high draft picks isn’t that good a strategy.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Apr 9, 2010 6:34 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Excellent points Colinski.
This comment is a post rebuttal unto itself. Certainly worth the debate!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
an added point -- an inverse effect to the top ten pick desideratum
One of the interesting effects that was partly missed in the Smith trade issue is that there is an inverse effect to the top ten desideratum. Normally, teams are reluctant to draft certain positions because “salary slotting” makes them into category breakers. There’s more complexity to this argument than people realize but I only want to point to it here. The over-paying or category breaking effect is flipped when the pick has an artificially depressed salary. In other words, instead of saying we can’t draft him because we’d have to pay him too much at that slot, the argument is that he’s worth more than he ordinarily would be because we pay him so little.
What’s confusing to people is the cross-pressured effect of salary and pick value. Cost-effectiveness is somewhat indeterminate — it’s either up OR down. Teams attempt to increase their cost effectiveness by finding players who perform better than when they were drafted (out-perform their contract), which is usually accomplished by out-scouting the competition or through better player development.
High draft picks present an interesting challenge since they need to perform at a very high level or risk cost ineffectiveness. We’ve seen this ineffectiveness demonstrated in the preponderance of teams wanting to trade down from top ten picks. Most are incapable of doing so because the lower picks are higher valued in terms of cost effectiveness. The Smith trade was unusual in the sense that it accomplished this trading down through an alternative means.
The ironic thing is that many people are clamoring for us to trade down this year (we sorta already did) but still clinging to their dislike of the Smith trade because we — in essence — need to trade up!
no goats, no glory.
Yeah, but
we traded down by giving up a 1st rounder for a 2nd rounder…straight up. No matter what reasonable argument is given…I’ll still hate the trade. lol
I like Phonz too…just wish we still had the #14 pick in this years draft. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Everyone knew well before the 2009 draft that the 2010 draft was going to be awesome due to the pending rookie cap in 2011 and lockout looming in 2011 as well. Not to mention several great players elected to return to college last season that we expected to turn pro in 2009 (Bradford, McCoy, Suh, Gresham, Mayes, Okung, T Williams, Kindle, Spiller, Cody, Brown)
That trade was inexcusably short sighted.
In my opinion.
Quinn, Richard
You can’t just write ‘Quinn’ anymore. Life is too complex….lol
A couple of questions – first,
The picks we traded away to move up to get Quinn also constitutes a reach to me.
So, two things here. Quinn’s agent won a can of Dr. Pepper from the GM of Houston when Quinn was drafted. The GM said that Quinn would be there when Houston picked next and the agent told him no. If Denver hadn’t picked Quinn that time, Quinn wouldn’t have been there (Houston picked again before we would). So, when you talk about moving ‘picks’ for Quinn – you do recall that it was a late 2nd and a 4th for two thirds, right? If we kept the two third round picks, Quinn would have been gone. If there was any reach as far as skillset, that’s something you find out later. As far as Quinn’s draft value – others agreed with Denver and were attempting to take the player. We traded two picks for two picks and got Seth Olsen with the second, taking David Bruton with our other 4th round pick. Did I miss something on this one? The statement about us using ‘picks’ kind of confused me, as did the idea that it was a ‘reach’ since we know that Houston wanted him too.
The other Q was on QBs – you wrote “Josh McDaniels carried that philosophy with him to Denver when he selected Tom Brandstater in the sixth round last year. It is unclear how Brandstater will work out, but he fits the Patriots profile to a T”.
Common Traits:
Big, mobile athletes
Lots of potential, but tend to be raw and typically need a year or more to develop
College experience tends to be in spread offenses or out of the shotgun
I’m with you on ‘big’ and ‘need a year or more to develop’, but Brandstater played mostly in a pro style offense from what I saw and he definitely isn’t mobile (neither are Brady or Cassel). Those minor things aired, it’s a great article overall – rec’d, and thanks.
It all starts with the lines
by Doc Bear on Apr 8, 2010 9:14 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I like Dr. Pepper
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Root Beer(or just beer) here!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
If Orange Crush isn't available, Dr. Pepper is a wonderful alternative.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Apr 8, 2010 10:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks Doc!
Good point about Richard Quinn. I hadn’t heard that. My sources were pre-draft rankings…I don’t think I’ll ever have your sources. ;-) lol
As for Tom B….I think you got me on the mobile bit. Not a single QB the Patriots had and kept were particularly mobile…not sure where I came up with that. Perhaps I meant within the pocket, creating time and space to make plays. However, Fresno State aired it out quite a bit, pro style or not – he played out of the shotgun mostly.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I heard the same thing about Dallas and McBath. the Boyz were going to take McBath with the pick after we selected the kid. When he was off the board, Dallas traded down.
In my opinion.
what went down
The C S Gazette article had Houston as our competition, according to R Quinn’s agent. The Texans did finally take the 2nd rated (after Quinn) run blocking TE after waiting till the 4th, so the contention by Quinn’s agent that the Texans would have taken Quinn in the 3rd is strongly supported. The agent maintained that he “knew” of Houston’s intentions.
The Cowboys made no important trades that would fit into the Quinn scenario. Their trades were either before or after and had no bearing on Quinn’s availability. The Jet’s moved into #65 (right after the Quinn pick) and took Shonn Greene, but it also had no implications on the Quinn pick.
Sounds like someone scrambled the story and got the wrong Texas team, but even then the later trade after Quinn is gone seems to be a fanciful addition to the narrative.
no goats, no glory.
The 2009 draft strategy/execution in a nutshell.
After having just a few months to scout prospects, the 2009 Bronco draft strategy was:
To panic when a player we really liked was still on the board later than we expected and we just had to have him so bad that we traded away a lot of future value to snag the guy.
Kidding aside, whatever the 2009 draft execution was, I hope it gets completely overhauled in 2010. We need to exercise patience and restraint this time around. Those are two qualities that have not been associated with McD since he arrived on the scene.
In my opinion.
by McGeorge on Apr 8, 2010 4:05 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I certainly would like to see two things happen on draft day...
1. Trade down from #11 to the late teens.
2. Trade Scheffler for a fourth rounder.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Yo tambien.
And use that late teen’s pick on Pouncey so he can be our All Pro Center until 2024 (kid is just 20 years old).
Whatever we trade Scheff for will be okay with me. He doesn’t fit what we are trying to do in Denver. I like the guy so I hope he lands in a place where he will be successful.
In my opinion.
I could actually be okay with Pouncey in the late teens, though not at #11
Not sure why I feel that way, but I think it has to do with a certain guy coming out of a lil place called Idaho. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I’d be thrilled with Pouncey on our roster. Doesn’t matter where we pick him – 11 is A-okay with me. That guy fills an immediate need and has tons of upside.
But I’m biased to the C position. I loved Nalen and love the idea of having a great C.
In my opinion.
My favorite C prospect right now is Matt Tennant...
his ceiling isn’t as high as Pouncey’s, but he could become a solid starter for the next decade or so. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
And he is from the same college as Nalen.
If we can’t trade down from 11 and Haden is not on the board.
1. Pouncey
2. McClain (but only because of the Crones)
3. Dan Williams
4. No one else worth this pick.
5. Dez Bryant (when hell freezes over).
In my opinion.
I'd put Iupati in there before "no one else is worth pick". ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Ahhh. Iupati scares me a bit. He is a small college guy that got smacked around a bit at the Sr. Bowl.
In my opinion.
He is only begining to scratch the surface of his potential.
Came to America when he was 14, learned English on the fly…I think he has the potential to be one of the greatest Guards in the league…he just won’t come out like Clady and dominate from Day 1. ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
From what I watched...
He was only smacked around, when playing positions on the right side ( specifically ORT). When they moved him back to OLG, he did very well.
I'd be fine with Pouncey
at 11 if none of the top tier guys drops. I don’t think we can quite right off Dez Bryant. The Broncos did bring him in for a workout, I believe.
It's true....
Then McX reported that Bryant is a Top 10 talent. lol I think its a smoke screen….
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
"Really? Link please!"
BideshiBronco in his post ILB and the draft (two days ago) had a list of all the players the Broncos have brought in – Bryant was on it.
http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/4/7/1409068/ilb-and-the-draft
A man does what he has to do, and sometimes it’s not what I believe he should do. There’s no reason to use up energy hating him for it. Shoot him if you have to, but don’t hate him.
Louis L’Amour
Smoke screen?
That’s my hope anyway – I think his off field issues are too risky – don’t care how talented he is.
A man does what he has to do, and sometimes it’s not what I believe he should do. There’s no reason to use up energy hating him for it. Shoot him if you have to, but don’t hate him.
Louis L’Amour
Pouncey is very risky at #11...
…Because of salary. This is why Centers and TEs are not typically taken in the top15, unless they are “All World” level prospects. I’m not sure Pouncey fits that description… at least no one but the MHR crowd really seem to think so.
At #11 salary, Pouncey not only has to be a competant starter… he has to be Probowl level or he is overpaid, which then impacts our future salary structure and in essence creates “dead money” that can’t be used in future for other positions
Am I relatively convinced Pouncey can be at least a competant starter? Yes. Probowler? Maybe as good a chance as anyone, but I wouldn’t put my money on it.
I’m all for drafting Pouncey… but not a big fan at #11.
Nope McG I disagree..
Let McX wheel and deal, they are good at it.
Definately trade down #11 then see where certain players re-align in day two and then trade up to garner BPA at need.
I would even trade a couple of 2011’s for another 2nd in 2010
Everyone knows the 2011 draft will be a weak one so those picks will be discounted.
By “good at it” do you really mean bad at it? I doubt many outside of McX biggest fans would agree with you on that one based on what I can only assume is the work they did at the 2009 draft.
Maybe you think they hit that draft and those trades out of the park… but I say your orange shades are tinted so dark you can’t see through them.
In my opinion.
I gotta put on
my McX-Ray specs for this one.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
I’ve had a nagging feeling that TE was going to be on the to-do list. The only one that I know anything about is the kid from Arizona Gronkowski(sp?). Any thoughts Tim?
I've provided links to all the prospects in the story, but
his injury was scary, though he appears to have fully recovered. He fits what McD is looking for better than all the rest, but I don’t think McD is willing to expend a second rounder on him with all our other needs – though I wouldn’t put it past him.
I wouldn’t mind having this guy on our team. I just have a bunch of other needs that rank a bit higher right now. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
I cant tell you how awesome is...
I saw him play in college (not last yr – which killed our Rose Bowl chances), but he is a huge target with soft hands, pretty good speed and can block. He can play every down. Love him, if we have an extra 2nd pick.
by Orange and Blue on Apr 8, 2010 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions
If we draft another TE in rd 2 I will pull my hair out.
We have so many needs and taking a huge injury risk (back injuries especially) for a position that isn’t a priority in the early rounds seems irresponsible. I don’t see how that pick makes our team better. Quinn didn’t contribute nearly enough to me last year. Sure he had some key plays and I know McD likes to let his rookies learn rather than start but we have more important needs than this guy.
by BroncoMath101 on Apr 9, 2010 8:17 AM MDT up reply actions
need v. BPA
agreed that TE is not a HUGE need, but a pass-catching TE (tho not a fixture in our recent style offense) could be a huge asset if we have our #1 WR leave. He in essence would be a WR we are drafting…and he can block. His injury needs to be thoroughly qualified tho (borrowing a term from mayock)
by Orange and Blue on Apr 10, 2010 5:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Great post I love it!
Only one thing I disagree on though..the runningbacks. I see it as fairly likely that we draft a RB in the 2-3 maybe 4th rounds. Maybe Gerhart, Hardesty, possibly McCluster
Eddie Royal will have a breakout season in 2010. Count on it.
This was effing awesome
Zappa, is there any way you can post your source tables? The synthesis of what the Patriots went for in each round is awesome. But I’d like to see the raw tabulations it’s based on — you know, how you aggregated and code the information.
I don’t see what’s ironic about the Patriots going away from in-the-trenches picks after 2005. But either way, it’s hard to fault the picks. You have:
Laurence Mauroney: The worst of the bunch, underachieving RB, but not bad
Brandon Merriweather: Excellent safety.
Jarrod Mayo: Awesome ILB.
On the whole, these guys have outperformed their draft position.
The left side of their offensive line is excellent. Matt Light at his peak was very good. Sebastian Vollmer looks terrific. I watched lots of insufferable Patriots football when I had to live in the Northeast with all the Massholes, and Logan Mankins was a monster. He got so far outside and upfield on lots of running plays, I actually thought he was the left tackle for awhile. The curious thing is that the right side of the OL gave the Pats trouble in 2007 and has not been very good since. Why hasn’t Bellicheck addressed it via high-round draft picks? He’s renowned for his economics-like approach to football. And like an economies, he often mistakes efficiency/relative value for absolute merit. Second-round picks can be the best value and an OT might be a “reach” in the first round. But if your team’s 4-year Achilles Heal is the right side of the OL, it’s still a good idea to grab a big guy for the right side of the line on day 1 of the draft.
This was great stuff, and these are friendly queries. I really would love to see your source information. You could FTP it or something. This is an awesome research achievement.
Bad choice of words...i suppose the irony is, the Patriots stopped winning Super Bowls. lol
If you email me, I will see what I have in excel format. Much of my research was pages of printouts of prospect analysis with highlighter marks.
I missed the hole in the right side on the Patriots line….they are a pass-heavy team now, I wouldn’t be surprised if they pick up a RT early in the draft…
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Changed the "irony" to the more proper "interesting". ;-)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Nice job
I especially like the way that you researched the lines and the guys “on the outside” separately.
the Patriots focused their higher round draft picks on their offensive and defensive lines.
the Patriots in the second round drafted players mostly on the outside…The fronts on both sides of the ball are far more important to winning than the outside players and by drafting interior linemen in the first and “skill” players in the second, you are still able to build a talented football team.
Hopefully, McD will implement this early Pats’ strategy in the upcoming draft.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
My Mock says it must be so! lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Awesome Analysis and Rec'd Zappa
Now this is is why I visit here every day.
Just curious, did you check on which Belichek/McD/X draftees had that Mendicino Beano?
;-)
Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA
Thanks man!
Me thinks the biggest conehead could be Knowshon’s.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Flamin' Out Across Her Head
She had a snake for a pet and an amulet
She was breeding a dwarf but she wasn’t done yet…
Oh that should have been a greasy Al tribute :-)
Jeff Zepp, Kittredge CO USA
what about jacoby ford?
he seems to fit into that deep threat category right? we could prolly use a 4th maybe a 5th rounder and him and maybe save eddie royal from getting hurt on returns? :D
Deciding who fit the McD-mold
was strictly subject to my own opinion. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Timmy, Sweet post
I really like how you went about breaking down the McX draft stratgey.
Another thing that I really liked was that you have two players listed as options that I haven’t seen anyone here at MHR hyping yet. Taylor Price WR Ohio and Lonyea Miller RB Fresno ST. These two players would be sweet pickups for the Broncos. Price will most likely go in the 3rd and Miller in the 4th or 5th.
I am on the Pouncy bandwagon if we trade back and think he could be our first round pick. But to me Tennent and Olsen would also work.
QB
With Quinn here, I doubt McD will draft a QB, but I bet the Broncos sign a CFA QB for the PS.
A man does what he has to do, and sometimes it’s not what I believe he should do. There’s no reason to use up energy hating him for it. Shoot him if you have to, but don’t hate him.
Louis L’Amour
Excellent work, Tim
Looking forward to your take on Xanders
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Even though McDaniels was mentored and groomed by Bill Belichick there is no reason to believe that McD won't wade out on his own beliefs.
I say that with the assumption that maybe McD did give Bill some input to the draft but Belichick didn’t listen and went on his own feelings. That may be the reason why Moreno (210) was chosen over Wells. I think you are right on though, we won’t hit on a Dez Bryant in the first and may even reach for a Jared Odrick who some are saying now is a top 10 prospect. So that wouldn’t be a reach or would McD even care…Like you said he reached for Seth Olsen when most had him either later or CFA. I really don’t see McD going OT with 11 either where now a lot of folk are saying Trent Williams. Joe Haden may be a surprise much like Moreno was last year, we’ll have to wait out the confusion and see…Heh!
I think McD will eventually develop his own style, but early on I assumed he would attempt to do things the way his mentor did things.
Joe Haden would certainly surprise me considering the holes on our lines.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Take Haden if...
….we can’t trade down. It would be for the future, but you have to consider this may well be Champ’s last year as a Bronco. A really talented CB is a lot harder to find than linemen.
Teach us, Lord, to meet adversity; but not before it arrives.
The Talmud
See, that's the damnable part of it...
We don’t know or are not given much info on how certain players are developing along both sides of the line. For instance if Baker is the future do we draft a NT? If Fry who is what, now 4 years in the league and really never done anything suddenly becomes the Tom Nalen we miss? Or Seth Olsen with a year in the system and schem, suddenly becomes the power house Guard we needed last year? Marcus thomas on the other side loses a few lbs and adds some muscle to the frame and starts banging heads on the edge? Questions that have my head spinning with no clear direction. Jeez…I hate waiting for the draft.
Great post however...
I know I have a man-crush on Eric Decker, but I don’t see how he didn’t make your target/mold list at WR. He is a sure handed guy that can and probably will produce like Welker or Edelmann does for NE. I know that they are both new style offense guys but you can’t argue with the idea of having a receiver that gains yards with efficiency like a running back…
I was judging from a strict set of criteria...Decker didn't seem to fit the draft style of the Patriots from years ago..
It doesn’t mean Decker isn’t going to be a good player. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Great insight!!!
Your researching is impervious!! Just recently, I had a conversation with a friend and mentioned that the Pats didn’t have any big profile WRs when they won their Superbowls.
It is clear to me that Josh McDaniels is attempting to build a run-oriented offense, similar to the one the Patriots ran with Corey Dillon. That’s also the offense that won three Super Bowls.
This philosophy appears to be "dead-on" and closely resembles how football is played in the Ohio area.

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