Too Much Is Never Enough
by ejruiz on May 28, 2010 11:30 AM MDT
in 2010 Denver Broncos Offseason
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PrintThey say that "when you think you have two quarterbacks, you really have none". There are a lot of people out there who believe that the 2010 Denver Broncos are fatally flawed because of what they perceive to be an unsettled QB position. After all, if thinking that you have two QBs is bad, having four must be terrible! Much like last year, however, the reports of the Broncos' demise have been greatly exaggerated. In this case, perception once again falls far short of reality. It's almost as though the Broncos are written in a language that the general punditry hasn't bothered to learn how to read! Even a cursory review of the main characters involved in this so-called drama in Denver reveals that things are much clearer than the critics may lead you to believe.
Opinions are like belly buttons: everybody has one. Well, when it comes to head coach Josh McDaniels, I'd say that they're more like fingers: everyone seems to have ten and the most prominent ones are usually the bad ones when they stand alone. However, if there's one thing about coach McDaniels that we know, it's that everything on his team is earned. In his short time at the helm, he's already traded away multiple fan favorites and players coming off of trips to the Pro Bowl, elevated journeymen to starting roles and spent his most valuable resources building depth and long term stability rather than targeting needs that were perceived as being more pressing; in other words, there are no sacred cows in Orange and Blue anymore. Why is it, then, that people seem to think that the quarterback position will now be handled so differently?
Kyle Orton came to Denver under the dark cloud of the Jay Cutler saga. A perceived throw-in, he was even considered by some to be a disappointment by those meager standards! Nevertheless, McDaniels chose him and that's about all that matters in that story. Orton became and remains our starter because he earned that distinction. He earned his roles on this team, not just by besting Chris Simms during the offseason, but with his performance as a Bronco both on and off the field every day since. It's true that the administration still saw fit to revamp the depth chart behind him and it's also undeniable that his days in Denver are most likely numbered because of those moves. That said, I still think that he is ultimately in control of his own destiny.
Kyle's the only candidate for the starter's job that has any experience in McDaniels' system and we already know just how valuable that is. And before anyone forgets, he actually executed it quite successfully last year. Moreover, he has a personal track record of improvement that - coupled with the added experience throughout the offensive unit and coaching staff - has him poised for an even more impressive season in 2010. Simply put, Kyle Orton will remain our starter until one of his competitors earns it more than he has and I find that unlikely at this point. Unfortunately for him, the QB hot seat is not a new experience. Thankfully for us, he's always handled it well. I still believe that he's a good enough quarterback to lead a team to the Super Bowl and I hope that team turns out to be the 2010 Broncos. Regardless, it's been a treat to root for a guy like Orton and I'll always wish him luck.
Brady Quinn has a lot of things going for him. He has the right pedigree, looks the part of a star quarterback and says all the right things when he's behind a microphone. He's hungry for the opportunity to finally cash in some of that tantalizing potential and succeed as a starting QB in the NFL. Moreover, he came to Denver at the expense of fan favorite Peyton Hillis, so many will read that perceived value into his acquisition and hope that it pays off to that degree. All of those attributes have earned him a fair share of fans within our base and that's certainly understandable. Some have even stated and others still maintain that he's in Denver to take Orton's job; I, on the other hand, believe that he's here to replace the departed Chris Simms as our dependable and experienced back-up. Despite being handicapped by clearly deficient supporting casts in Cleveland, Quinn has undeniably and quite thoroughly struggled as a pro. While we can all hope that he will right that ship as a Bronco - and McDaniels obviously believes that they can help him toward that goal - it's unreasonable and unfair to expect that out of him right away. Though I believe that the Broncos QB competition is truly open and will be perpetually ongoing, I just don't see him coming out on top of it any time soon, if ever.
The selection of Tim Tebow out of the University of Florida with the 25th overall pick in April's draft really kicked off the rumors of Kyle Orton's demise in Denver and the fall of the 2010 Broncos with him. "Why would a coach on a short leash invest so heavily on such a prospect at that critical position if he doesn't intend to turn the team over to his new QB sooner rather than later?", they say. In short order, the incessant derisive commentary about Tebow's prospects as an NFL quarterback was replaced by a chorus of voices clamoring for his immediate ascension to the rank of starter in our Orange and Blue. Skeptics became advocates apparently so that they could remain critics of McDaniels on some level. Suddenly, there was a QB controversy in Dove Valley!
Another camp has pushed the idea of Tebow as an immediate starter or, at very least, the implementation of a plan to make that so sooner rather than later. They are genuine in their efforts and sincere in the belief that this would be the best for everyone involved. I just can't see that happening. I'm on the record as a fan of Tim's. I believe that he will be a roaring success at the next level and I'm happy that he's a Bronco. That said, I did not publically advocate his candidacy for Denver and I never really expected the pick until our maneuvering on that fateful day began in earnest. I was and remain satisfied with Kyle Orton as our starter in the short term and simply look at Tebow as a change of pace guy this year and the eventual long term solution at QB.
I would be remiss if I did not at least briefly mention Tom Brandstater as part of the QB equation for the Broncos at this point. As you can imagine by my placement of him in this discussion, I don't think he'll figure prominently in the competition for the starter's job. I like his ceiling, but haven't ever been quite so high on him as to see him as anything more than a project at the position. I hope that they find a way to sneak him onto the practice squad where he can continue his development under the auspices of the gifted staff on hand in Denver and that he'll eventually become an asset to the franchise commiserate to his impressive potential. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if he's the odd man out sooner rather than latter.
So let me see if I can put this in plain English for the MSM: there is a quarterback competition going on in Denver right now, but it's not controversial. No one involved will allow it to devolve into something like that. Moreover, there are similar competitions like it throughout the entire roster. In fact, there will always be such competitions in Denver, at least for as long as Josh McDaniels is the head coach. Competition is an integral part of the foundation of what he's try to build there. No one's job will ever be safe, so they'll all have to go out and earn it every day. His players will push each other to new heights and be better prepared to step in for one another. This team will be forged in competition and it will be stronger for it. To that, I say this: may the best men win and may they never get the chance to rest on their laurels. Go Broncos!
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Rec'd for the awesome prose of the intro
And the summaries of each of the QBs, of course. ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Training camp
is going to be circus because the media is going to stir the pot on a qb controversesy and it is going to be more media there this year because of Tebow. I still think the Broncos will trade Orton or Quinn before the October trade deadline if Tebow looks good in training camp and the pre-season.
I'm inclined to agree that one QB will be gone sometime before the start of the regular season
but I’m also inclined to believe that it will be Brandstater.
IMHO, Orton has established himself as a viable starter. Quinn was brought in to replace Simms, and Tebow drafted for the future.
If Orton is traded, we see a repeat of 2009 — a veteran QB new to the system backed up by what amounts to two rookies, Brandstater has yet to take a meaningful snap in the NFL.
If Quinn is traded, we’re left with a veteran who knows the system, but his backups, again are what amounts to two rookies.
I have a very hard time seeing McDaniels starting a rookie — irregardless if you’re referring to Brandstater who has been by & large invisible since the Arizona game last pre-season, or Tebow who has a lot of upside, but is still a complete rookie in regards to the NFL.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on May 28, 2010 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Brian, makes no sense it being Brandstater...
So, we get rid of a development QB that McD knows, as well as losing a starting level QB in Orton. It makes no sense on many levels. Tebow progresses, Orton goes. If not, we keep 4 QBs and we have Tebow, Quinn and Brandy next season. I don’t see him bailing on a young guy like unless McD is completely changing his offensive system…….but that’s a subject for another post.
Nice discussion post. I love these!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I think Brandstater stays.
Remember B now has a year of experience under McD – something neither Quinn nor Tebow has. Also, there was a post recently that said that Brandstater led the scout team offense all year and met every Wed with McD to review his progress and go over how he wanted the opposing offense to be simulated. I believe THAT experience will result in a vastly improved quarterback.
by Lakewoodgrad on May 28, 2010 1:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Trading a QB.
Like Brian and Skotty, I’m of the mind that Brandstater would be the one gone if absolutely necessary. I still think that the added benefit of having such versatility elsewhere in the roster is that we’d be able to carry less back-ups to cover for the entire line-ups. We may well keep three QBs this time around…
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Hard to guess this part of the roster...
I think it’s the most likely that they will find a place to be able to keep at the 4 of them to be honest. Probably just until Tebow is ready to take over.
Brandstater has a relationship with McD and I think thats part of how this coach works. He works through relationships. Think Marshall – good player but not part of the family – shot out of there like a cannon ball.
Unrelated: also I think thats why he will see to it that EVERY stone is turned in an attempt to make sure Champ Bailey stays around til year dot. There are just some players you feel are the right relationship players for the team.
"The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game." - Derek Robinson
"You've got to get your first tackle in early, even if it's late." - Ray Gravell
McD's "short leash"
is in my opinion, another fabrication of McD haters and the MSM to stir up controversy that doesn’t exist. It seems to me that Bowlen and McD are on the same page when you look at Bowlen’s occasional statements, like the one when he said he wanted to draft a new QB. If anything I believe McD has already “lengthened his leash” a bit by showing some level of success last season after changing both offensive and defensive philosophies and after overhauling a good percentage of the roster.
by BigskyBronco on May 28, 2010 11:53 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Absolutely!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Well McD is either Shanahan or Phllips
Which means he either has another season or 15. :)
Personally I believe Bowlen learned from his Phillips mistake and hired McDaniels with the right mindset and objectives.
While I agree that Bowlen trusts McD
But if he goes 8-8 again, or worse, a losing season, do you think Bowlen might get a bit nervous. At this point McD isn’t really on a short leash, but should next season go poorly, then he probably will be.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Right on! McD will be our HC for many years to come...
oc60
"Do not dwell in the past. Do not dream of the future.
Concentrate the mind on the present moment."
Good Post
Tebow was the 25th pick though, Bay-Bay was 22nd.
DON'T TELL AL GORE WHERE I AM!!!
by manbearpig5000000 on May 28, 2010 11:54 AM MDT reply actions
Fixed!
Thanks so much for spotting that oversight on my part; how embarassing!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
No problem, I didn’t want to be nit-picky, but I figured you would want to know :-)
DON'T TELL AL GORE WHERE I AM!!!
by manbearpig5000000 on May 28, 2010 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Bronco's QB situation
Would you rather have the situation in: San Francisco? Seattle? Arizona? St. Louis? Jacksonville? Tampa? Buffalo? Pittsburgh? Cleveland? Oakland? Kansas City? Carolina? Philadelphia?
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
Exactly.
We have Kyle, who has already shown that he can do the job well and is a good bet to improve. Behind him, we have Quinn, who is experienced in the NFL and has the potential to blossom in a new system/place/offense. And then, we have our future who may well prove to be the present sooner than some expected. Heck, even Brandstater as our 4th QB is intriguing. Too much of a good thing is never enough…
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
I'd rather have Pitts or Eagles QBs
Roethlisberger has been a jerk away from the team, but also a great QB on the field, winning two SBs.
Eagles do not have that much money invested in QBs and have Kolb (with multiple years in Eagles system and probable higher upside than Orton) and Vick (more experience with team and overall than any of Broncos backups, plus more NFL success than Quinn), plus a prospect in that Northwestern QB drafted in 4th round.
I think those two teams have overall better winning value at QB for the salaries than the Broncos, but Orton will be a great value this year.
Roethlisberger is not a jerk
If Roethlisberger was rude to women, I would consider him a jerk. Getting women drunk and raping them puts him more in the “scum of the Earth” category in my book. I will take Orton over him any day.
That's not entirely true
They invested $12.25 million, 10.7 million guaranteed (from a signing bonus), in Kevin Kolb, who has only attempted 130 passes in the NFL over 3 years. Michael Vick is making 1.6 million a year. Compare this to Kyle Orton making about 1 million a year, Brady Quinn making about 2 million a year, Brandstater making about 470k, and Tebow TBD. Tim Tebow may possibly make us have more money invested in QB’s than the Eagles, but that is unlikely. We are definitely getting a lot more bang for our buck than the Eagles, and I think our “QB Situation” is better than the Eagles.
I would agree that I would rather have Roethlisberger as a player, but I wouldn’t want the “QB situation” that they have at the present moment, which is what bradley’s comment was addressing.
DON'T TELL AL GORE WHERE I AM!!!
by manbearpig5000000 on May 28, 2010 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Eagles vs Broncos QB 2010 salaries
$Millions:
Kolb: 6.2 (the 12.3 is a full 2 year deal)
Vick: 3.7 (second full year of two year deal)
4th Round draft pick: 0.6?
Total: about 10.5
Orton: 2.6 (tender offer – and still a great value!)
Quinn: 0.7, unless he takes 70% of snaps, then 6.6 million
Brandstater: 0.5 (probably about that whether he makes the team or not, due to signing bonus)
Tebow: 6.0 ? (assuming about a 30 million 5 year contract, less than Josh Freeman’s 36MM last year, about the same as Quinn’s in 2007, although Quinn’s included lots of incentive that he has not achieved)
Total: about 9.8 (unless Quinn earns his bonus, then probably about 13.7, assuming Orton gets traded early in the season)
The most likely totals are similar: Broncos about $700K lower, not a meaningful difference.
So now, it depends on your confidence in Orton/Quinn/Tebow versus Kolb/Vick. For 2010, I would rather have the latter two (and be developing Kafka). But I can understand how others prefer Orton/Quinn/Tebow – and I am hoping Orton plays great this year.
Here are some financial numbers for you two
Via RotoWorld:
Kevin Kolb 4/29/2010: Signed a two-year, $12.25 million contract. The deal, fully guaranteed, included a $10.7 million signing bonus. 2010: $715,000, 2011: $1.392 million, 2012: Free Agent
Michael Vick 8/13/2009: Signed a two-year, $6.875 million contract. The deal includes no guarantees. Another $2.75 million is available through incentives based on snaps, passing, receiving, and rushing statistics. 2010: $3.75 million (+ $1.5 million roster bonus picked up 3/9 that converts $1 million of the base salary into a guaranteed payment), 2011: Free Agent
Kyle Orton 4/15/2010: Signed a one-year, $2.621 million contract tender for the 2010 season.
Brady Quinn 8/7/2007: Signed a five-year, $9.25 million contract. The deal contains $7.75 million guaranteed, including a $4.255 million option bonus in the second year. Another $11 million is available though escalators in 2010 and 2011 based on Quinn taking at least 55% of the snaps in each of the first two years or at least 70% in his third season. Another $9.8 million is available, but is unlikely to be earned. 2009: $655,000, 2010-2011: $700,000, 2011: Free Agent
Tom Brandstater 7/26/2009: Signed a four-year, $1.874 million contract. The deal included a $124,000 signing bonus. Another $2.285 million is available through final-year escalators, but they are “unlikely to be earned.” 2009: $310,000, 2010: $395,000, 2011: $480,000, 2012: $565,000, 2013: Free Agent
Tim Tebow will have Base Salaries in 2010: $320,000, 2011: $405,000, 2012: $490,000, 2013: $575,000, 2014: Free Agent. That is what all the other rookie deals consist of. Of course there will be a signing Bonus and incentives, but that shouldn’t be part of your argument anyway. Signing Bonuses are a one time deal and can be considered throwaways in this example
And just to make it interesting:
Ben Roethlisberger 3/3/2008: Signed an eight-year, $102 million contract. The deal contains $33.2 million guaranteed, including a $25.2 million signing bonus and a $3 million roster bonus in the second year. Also included is a clause forbidding Roethlisberger from participating in “hazardous activities,” e.g. riding a motorcycle with no helmet. 2010: $8.05 million, 2011-2014: $11.6 million, 2015: $12.1 million, 2016: Free Agent
Big Ben comes with a Big Pricetag.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on May 28, 2010 5:32 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why are signing bonuses not relevant?
From both the owners and players viewpoint, bonuses are real dollars – absolutely no different than the dollars paid in “salary” – except for timing – and future salaries are usually not guaranteed, so current/past bonuses are more valuable to players and more costly to owners than future salaries . I averaged bonuses into the 2010 numbers reported above.
I think you are incorrect regarding Tebow, unless there is something special about 2010. I am not sure about “salaries”, but most 1st round draft pck signings are for five years (or sometimes more for the top picks), that would go through 2014. Plus I am positve that the bonus(es) for Tebow are very important to both him and Bowlen.
The important factors, for both players and owners, are total money paid (including bonuses) and the timing of those payments. Guarantees, ease of earning incentive bonuses, etc affect the timing and total money paid. The existance of a salary cap complicates decisions, and is a major reason signing bonuses have become a major portion of total compensation, but the salary cap (none this year and whether there will be one in the future) does not change the fact that total money paid along with the timing is what matters.
At least that is my understanding. You are usually very objective, so I don’t understand your position on bonuses.
I just meant for your argument
If you remove (or don’t consider) the Bonus, you can see the Real money value. It is fairer to look at their value this way because some of them have already been paid their Bonuses.
I wasn’t trying to quell your discussion, just attempting to add something. Sorry if I messed it up. =)
Signing Bonuses are my next topic though.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Yes, some past bonuses are not relevant.
I did not include any past bonuses to Quinn (in the $700Kfor 2010) because he is a Bronco and the Cleveland bonuses are not relevant (in evaluating his cost to the Broncos). But bonuses are relevant for Kolb (to calculate average compensation for the 2 year deal), Vick (bonuses are all in 2010), Brandstater, and especially Tebow (low salaries, high bonuses and total cost). And for Quinn too, if he plays 70 percent of snaps this year and gets another $5.9 million. Orton has no bonus with Broncos, unless they do a new contract.
So I believe bonuses need to be considered, if they were/are paid by the players current team. Bonuses are real money – actually worth more than salary money, because they are normally paid immediately, whereas salary is paid throughout the official season and is often not guaranteed.
and about Vick's compensation
I read that the $3.7 million for 2010, includes all bonuses, including the just earned “roster”?? bonus. I think Rotoworld is incorrect with the “+” regarding that bonus. I think the just earned bonus is part of the full year total of about $3.7 million.
They can be wrong
But I have found that they are the most accurate. I have found some discrepencies between NFP, Yahoo, and USA Today but Roto usually justifies where the money goes, so I just stay with them. I wish I had access to all the incentives.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Actually, it looks like Vick will make that $5.2 million in 2010
After doing more checking, I think I was wrong and rotoworld is correct. With the salary and bonuses (just this year), he will make $5.2 million. So Philly is paying a lot for him this year. And their value at QB is not as good as I thought. $5.2 million is a lot for a backup who has not done much for several years. Of course, if our backup (Quinn) takes 70% of the snaps, he will make $6.6 million, but otherwise he is cheap insurance at $700k.
That is what I wanted to convey.
It’s all good. =)
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Thanks for the figures KK
DON'T TELL AL GORE WHERE I AM!!!
by manbearpig5000000 on May 28, 2010 9:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Well
I disagree with you at this point in time. Kolb is unproven at this point; yes, he has stepped up in the few games he has seen playing time, but we’ll see how he does over the course of a season. I may be right to be skeptical or I may be wrong, but at this point, I would much rather have our QB situation, as far as the starting quarterbacks. However, I would much rather have Michael Vick than Brady Quinn, but I don’t see many Coloradans embracing Vick in a Broncos uniform.
Just curious, why would you rather have the QB situation in Pittsburgh right now over the QB situation we have?
DON'T TELL AL GORE WHERE I AM!!!
by manbearpig5000000 on May 28, 2010 8:57 PM MDT up reply actions
The situation in Pitt for sure
Not to condone what Big Ben did but eventually this will pass much like it did with Kobe and the Mike Vick situations.. In the long run Pitt will still have their top 10 QB with Superbowls and life will go on.
I think the key here is to not get too short sighted but look at the big picture. Big Ben is only out 6 games. Thats not too long.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I was referring to this season
I agree that I would like to have a franchise QB as good as Roethlisberger for the long run, but 6 games is a long enough time for it to completely change the complexion of their season. I will be surprised if they make the playoffs. When he is out for these six games, it’s not like he’s going to be getting the snaps in practice that he is used to getting. I really think this will affect his entire season negatively, even after he does return.
DON'T TELL AL GORE WHERE I AM!!!
by manbearpig5000000 on May 29, 2010 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
He may only be out for 4 games
and remember, they just need to make the playoffs. Big Ben lead them (with a great defense helping a lot) to a SB win a few years ago, winning as a wild card, including whipping us in Denver. Ben had better protection than Plummer; and he used it to beat us with the pass, including beating Champ a few times, including a big touchdown.
I personally don't think any of them will beat out Orton this year
I like what Tebow brings to the table and the only way he will beat out Orton is if he really gets the playbook down and if he earns the respect of the team as a leader. I think Quinn is a long shot to start. I don’t think he’ll be able to put it all together on the field. While I think he is a huge upgrade over Simms, I think he’ll take another year to get to starter material if ever. That is just my opinion though.
I’ve been in Haiti for so long I don’t know if this is old news, but my inbox this morning had a message from the Post about TT passing TB on the depth chart… I’m excited to see what our team has in store for us.
Haiti.
May I ask what it is that you’re doing down in Haiti? Since I may not get a chance to reply to your response, let me just say that if it as to do with disaster relief, your work is very much appreciated. Regardless, good luck out there and stay safe!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Yes I've been doing relief work
The people are amazing and the country is hot and beautiful. Thanks for the kind words. Keep up the stories so I can feed my Broncos fix.
Isn't Kyle Orton's lack of mobility one of the things that supposedly keeps him from leading a team to the Super Bowl?
Anyone remember Craig Morton? He wasn’t exactly the most mobile quarterback to play in the NFL, but he managed to lead both Dallas (1970) and Denver (1977) to Superbowls.
Mobility.
Orton’s lack of mobility and perhap shypersensitivity to the pass rush certainly limit him, but they shouldn’t keep him or his team from reaching the highest levels…
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Definitely remember Twinkle Toes!!
He, KO, Unitas, and P Manning all look a little similar when moving around in (or getting flushed from) the pocket. However, the defensive side of the game has also evolved. There is a much greater priority on limiting the QB’s time to make decisions and get rid of the ball now than there was for Morton or Unitas. However, Manning shows it can still be be done, but you have to be a real student of the game and a very driven QB.
And get excellent protection from your offensive line.
Which you can’t exactly say Orton got last year, but Manning certainly did.
Interesting stuff EJ
Kyle Orton has the most trade value (other than Tebow of course). He has the shortest contract; he’d cost the most to extend (in the near future), and he has the most limited upside. He has the weakest arm of the four QB’s and is the least mobile. So if another guy could step up and take the reigns, I’d say it would be best for the team. But that’s a big ‘if’.
Personally, I think Kyle Orton probably starts the season for us, but I also think he would be the first to go, and go soon, if another of our QB’s even jumped on par with him as far as being able to effectively start in week-one. Our log-jam is unfair to the team in that once TC starts, it will severely handicap each of the non starting QB’s coaching time and their ability to improve.
Kyle Orton remaining our starter throughout the year will set back the development of Tim Tebow and Tom Brandstater (if we’re able to keep him). Now it may be a necessary evil, but that doesn’t make it an optimum situation either. From that standpoint, Quinn starting, Kyle moving, and Tebow playing backup, IMO, would be the best thing for our football team. But that’s only IF Quinn showed he can do it effectively, as effective as Orton – and only if he showed it very soon.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
Here's The Thing...
If Orton keeps the job, it’ll be because he can do it better than the rest and the team is succeeding. There’s no reason to think that that decision will be made on anything other than the merits (i.e. who is best for the team right now) and I believe that means Kyle for the entirity of 2010. Tebow will get his snaps, but Quinn will be relegated to back-up and Brandstater will either be on the PS or elsewhere. Those are my two cents and I’m comfortable with that if it plays out that way…
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Agreed Elvis
On all your points. I certainly feel its an all or nothing for Orton at this point. Either he starts the season as the starter or he is traded. I could certainly be wrong but as you mentioned for all the positive’s that Orton brings to the table he has as many negatives or limitations that could make it more favorable to go with another candidate.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
Thanks johnny
Yeah, it’s a catch 22. RIght now we need Kyle. But spending time on him almost seems like a waste of time since he’s not likely to be in our future plans.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
Disagree on holding folks back
Orton remaining the starter will have no effect on Tebow’s development. I don’t think TT’s ready to start and likely won’t be all season, so he’d be sitting on the bench regardless.
I can agree with the argument that Brandstater may be head back… I actually think the real QB competition in camp is between TB and BQ for the backup job.
BQ may have more mobility than Orton, but their arms are comparably poor, and BQ’s accuracy is far worse. His decision making has overall been awful at the NFL level… you can say that was Cleveland coaching, but even still I’m guessing fixing BQ up to Orton’s level is more than a short-term project.
but even still I’m guessing fixing BQ up to Orton’s level is more than a short-term project.
I don’t necessarily disagree. Yet I maintain that it’s not an optimum scenario. Orton won’t be here in 2011, IMO. Which means time spent further developing him is essentially wasted time – It’s time we never get back, and it’s time that wasn’t spent developing Tebow, Quinn, or Brandstater.
Orton remaining the starter will have no effect on Tebow’s development. I don’t think TT’s ready to start and likely won’t be all season, so he’d be sitting on the bench regardless.
It’s not Orton being the starter, in and of itself, that will hurt Tebow’s development. It’s having an additional QB in front of him that will hurt his development. For example, Brandstater as the #3 QB last year pretty much only threw the ball for the scout team. But Simms, the #2, on the other hand, he got 2nd team reps and continued his learning and development in the offense. My point is that with both Orton and Quinn (which as I said, is necessary at this point), Tebow’s sitting at #3 (at best). And that most certainly does and will handicap his learning process.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
Agreed....go power running heavy, get ferocious on defense and play Tebow. he wont be worse than Quinn, Orton is not our future (unfortunately) and gradually open up the play book, and use play action and boot leg which will help Tebow!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
no no no no
Orton is poised for another career year. Play Orton all year and increase his trade value even further. Give him an extension or worst case scenario the franchise tag and then trade him when his stock is high.
This will allow Tebow the time he needs to develop and will also give us extra ammo in the draft once McD flips Orton.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by c_style on May 28, 2010 10:21 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I heard a rumor from Passing Camp
That Jake Jabs is now the #3 QB, leapfrogging Tebow and Brandstater.
The Old Furniture Guy...
Or is Google misleading me? ;)
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
The one thing I don't miss about living in Colorado
is seeing the American Furniture Warehouse commercials with Jake and his “pets”.
Of course in San Diego, Jerome’s commercials aren’t much better…
"It's all over Fat Man" - Tom Jackson to John Madden 1977 AFC Championship Game
RIP Barrel Man - 12/5/09
by DesertBroncoFan on Jun 1, 2010 11:29 AM MDT up reply actions
CONTACT INFO
Hey guys, as you may have noticed, I really enjoy replying to every comment I get whenever possible, but that’s a tougher task where I find myself at the moment; so, if you really want/need to get a hold of me for anything MHR related, feel free to e-mail me at the address provided in my SBNation account. Any and all messages (questions/comments on my posts, ideas for future pieces, anything Broncos-related, personal inquiries, etc.) are always appreciated. Thanks!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Orton will be beat out by Quinn and Tebow....
Not sure what Bronco games everyone else was watching last year but Kyle is nothing more than an average QB. Sure some games he plays well enough not to lose it but it is what it is and nothing more. Sure his numbers were OK, but given his limited arm strength we had a offense that dinked and dunked throughout the year which is nothing more than padding. How many times did he only look to Marshall? How many times did he fall down when someones shadow got close? Don’t get me wrong, I love his attitude which is a huge improvement over Jay but lets not get carried away. He is better than Chris Simms but will not beat out Brady, Tebow or even Grossman for that matter.
Arm Strength
I honestly have heard nothing about Quinn’s arm strength being all that impressive either…
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
please why dont you tell us how many times he fell down because someone got close ?
We dinked and dunked because we had no deep threats on offense . What do you think our offense was in 2008 ? Im so tired of hearing this nonsense about dinking and dunking as of jay was here airing it out .
Look at marshalls numbers outside of the Colts game where marshall got hot his numbers were very pedestrian and right on pace with every other top wideout in the league.
the same people that would say Marshall is a top 5 receiver are the same ones complaining that we look to marhsall to much . Well did Scaub look at Johnson too much ? what about Brady and Welker ? Warner and Fitz ? You just get the weirdest stuff on the internet
Sorry westcoast but you need to get out of the sun that weather has you hallucinating
by Hoopforia on May 28, 2010 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Forgot something
Sorry forgot my main point….. Coach will not settle for average if he doesnt have to……Period!!!!
A couple of things I have against Orton
HORRIBLE deepball, cant stress that enough, its a duck and doesnt threaten any safeties at all, and now with BMarsh, we dont have a guy underneath who can mask that obvious defeciency with incredible YAC.
Mobility/Pocket Presence, Seems to have no sense of a pass rush whatsoever
If Defense or run game doesnt win the game, he doesnt win it. Thats a tough thing to ask, but in this age of the NFL, ur QB’s gotta win games, and I have yet to see Orton do it to inspire confidence in me.
Stared down BMarsh, I know people can argue the other points, but this one you cant. He stared down the beast and the beast’s talent made up for a lot of it, but without that presence at WR, Orton’s gotta spread the ball around and I have not seen anything from him to make me feel he will do so.
Again. I wont be POed if Orton starts this season, but I feel Quinn and Tebow offer more. And Ortons shortcomings are all very detrimental to our O, as we saw in plenty of games
again Ill post you the link that tosses your claims right out the window
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRKTh19Hrfk
there you go in that video he shows pocket awareness the ability to move and throw on the run and toughness to take the big hit .
he stared down Marshall about as much as Brady stared down Welker or any other qb stared down a pro bowl receiver .
On of Ortons biggest strength was that he spreads the ball around but for that to work you have to have a more than one or two players playing well. last year the receivers who played consistently well was marshall and gaffney . Royal had an off year scheff couldnt block and thus his reps were cut short and Stoke was limited to 3rd downs .
So who are all these other guys who shouldve been catching the balls that Marshall ? Ive never seen so much petty stuff being blown out of proportion.
the run game didnt win games and neither did the defense cause I dont remember us posting one shut out . Our rushing offense scored 9 tds again nuff said .
This isnt an indictment of Ortons greatness but my disdain for what seems to be a wealth of these made up rules and circumstances that apply only to Orton .
Whats good for every other other QB is a negative for Orton ? YAC ,leaping catches etc stuff that never gets questioned when a Colt,Pat,Chargers Qb does it gets dissected to death if its Orton whose the QB.
by Hoopforia on May 28, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions 6 recs
Wow...
A-flipping-men! Could not have been said better. +1000!
"Change is inevitable - except from vending machines."
by EastCoastBronco on May 28, 2010 7:25 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Well said AGAIN Hoop...
- Whatever "it" was that got you to where you are today, "it" will certainly not be enough to enable you to stay there going forward! -
by BroncoSense72 on May 29, 2010 8:06 AM MDT up reply actions
C'mon man, ur givin MHR a bad name
U cant throw a youtube highlight tape and call that proof of anything. The whole point of a highlight tape is that it shows only the good you do. To get a true feel for a player and his strength and weaknesses, u have to watch full games. Any GM or personnel manager at any level of football will tell u the same thing. College recruiters ask for full game tape when they are recruiting u. Yes, they ask for highlight tapes as well but rarely do they offer scholarships on highlight tapes alone. So no, u didnt throw my argument out the window with ur youtube highlight tape.
I personally would like to see the number of targets for BMarsh more than anything. Its probably ridcuolously high, and borderline absurd. I wouldnt say at all Brady stares down Welker, as all his WR’s have good numbers as well.
Orton did not win games for us, despite what you think. Ortons stats, mainly yard stats, are grossly manipulated due to number of attempts. Look at Aaron Rodgers, he threw the same amount of balls, with a worse OL, and blew Orton away in every category.
My main qualms with Orton was his play down the stretch. Granted, everyone struggled in that collapse, but he deserves a lot of the blame as well. In hat 2-8 stretch, he threw 11 INTs, plain horrible, especially for a “game manager” which is why I refuse to call him that anymore.
Fact is, being non-homer, I believe every other QB on the roster has a higher cieling than Orton. I would like anyone of his homers to defend him there. Read Mike Lombardi’s post on Orton, it explains it better than I can
by DBroncs1414 on May 29, 2010 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
C'mon yourself
The video did show good mobility/pocket presence and a deep ball that is far from a duck. These were the two things you were complaining about.
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
The way I look at it...
Orton had his best career year last year his first in a new system. With a (hopefully) improved OL and a number of positive changes around him, he should be even better, particularly if our running game improves.
People laughed when McD said he could win games with Orton but apparently, he knew something everyone else didn’t. In my view, although we do need to see improvement this year, if you had to pick 5 top issues this team had after 2009 it would very hard to put “quarterback” at the top.
Quinn is a former first rounder who has fallen shy of expectations but many feel he wasn’t given a fair shot up in Sunny Cleveland. Now he’ll get the chance to prove what he has. I have a feeling he’ll be competitive, at the least.
Tebow was a first rounder this year who has a lot of work to do but has all the tools and a great attitude and work ethic. He certainly eserves a chance to succeed.
Brandstater is the odd man out but if nothing else, he should provide a serviceable backup option and you never know how competitive he might be, bearing in mind the increased level of competition around him.
Given that competition is the whole point of a team sport, I don’t see how this is a bad thing. Orton doesn’t strike anyone as The Guy who is going to bring a championship back to Denver but he’s already shown more than almost anyone expected of him here. He knows the system and should have a better team around him this year.
I don’t know how it is all going to work out but I don’t see how any of this is a bad thing. We’ll have the best guy out there, regardless of who it is. “Quarterback Controversies” are primarily creatures of the media, as a well run football team will simply let the best men win at every position and put them on the field.
Then again, I am reminded of how Tom Landry insisted on rotating Craig Morton and Roger Staubach for a long time, never getting the best out of either during that period as a result. Even the best coaches can screw up a good thing. But I have a hard time seeing McD doing anything but making the solid choice and moving forward.
So, sorry if I am being redundant but I guess I am agreeing in principle with the article. LOL
We’ll see how it works out but it is hard to see this as a bad thing – I see a team that may not be top heavy at the QB position but is certainly well stocked.
Just one man’s opinion.
Why hate on your OWN team when you've got the Raiders?
For the most part I agree with your points EJ, great read.
I believe Orton has the smarts to be a much better than average QB, but, lacks the physical attributes that would ultimately give him that edge. That being said, I’d rather have Orton starting than say Derek Anderson or Matt Lienhart or Delhomme for that matter. There are things he needs to improve, his footwork and getting through his progression faster, delivering the ball to the open receiver quickly.
"I cannot give you a formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: Try to please everybody."
BTW
Great post EJ. Thanks for the nice read on this friday!
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I have to disagree with this premise
This is the NFL, this whole guise of, “competition at every position” is basically a statement that we don’t have a very good football team. You need to have a solid group of starters, and IMO you should have a clear No. 1 QB, RB, WR, OT, and C…you can open the rest of the positions up to competition if you want, but very rarely have I ever seen a team have a good year when they go into training camp with a competition at QB. It’s not like the Colts say, you know what, Peyton Manning needs someone to push him to make him better, to compete. He is the clear alpha dog and there is no competition (except maybe to be the back-up), the same motto goes for about every big time QB. I doubt the Saints are saying we need to push Drew Brees or the Pats think they need to make Tom Brady compete for the job. The one time that we brought in competition for John Elway in the form of Tommy Maddox, it almost destroyed the franchise. QB is a position in the NFL that you are either good at or not, obviously we have a roster filled with guys that have shown some ability in the pros or college, but have yet to show they should be consisdered the undeniable starter. I think this year is obviously going to be KO final season in Denver, you don’t draft a 1st round QB with the initention of thinking he won’t be a starter in the near furture, which means Quinn will likely be a career back-up or shortly following Jamaracus Russel out of the NFL.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
I would view it not as a stement that we don't have a very good football team, but that
the team is still upgrading at every position. You cannot afford to get all positions upgraded to the max in1 or 2 years (financial restrictions plus the annoying tendency for the best players to not all become available at the same time.) Eventually, when the team has made further upgrades, the talent level will hopefully be high enough that the “competition at all positions” will be in name only, as finding someone new to challenge at a position will be difficult. Until then, I prefer to focus on the improvement at each position compared to last year and enjoy the building process, and I much prefer our position of “competition at all positions” to that of teams that have stagnated, with little player turnover even during a sequence of years with average (or less than average) success.
by idahobronc on May 28, 2010 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with Idaho and Broncoman....we are not a very good or elite team....
We are a developing team on the upswing, but in no way are we a threat to the Super Bowl this year.
I would rather see us use our young guys, start Tebow, start using our new offense and see if our defense can hold us in games in the early season, because I tell you what, this offense has a lot more upside if Tebow and the youth work out, and could even start showing major improvement at the end of the season.
This is NOTHING against Orton, but he is only going to be here for this season, and I dont see the sense in holding off the new era for an outside chance of us being a contender.
If we were loaded on EITHER side of the ball, I would say play Orton. He is our best shot at having a CONSISTENT, STEADY hand at QB, and thats what a contender needs. But we are not a contender, and Tebow might suffer early, but he will learn, and so will our young guys.
I will be panned for this, but why put of the inevitable.
And I dont see Brady Quinn being an option…..AT ALL. He has been brought in as a back up.
There…rip me to shreds guys!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I'm glad to see someone calling it as it is.
We are a developing team on the upswing, but in no way are we a threat to the Super Bowl this year
I think its unrealistic to think that this team is anything more then a wildcard team at best right now. (thats if everything breaks perfectly) I could envision a scenario where the overall record is the same or even drops slightly to say a 6 or 7 win season but is done with 1st and 2nd players occupying major roles. I reference this back to both the Dolphins and Falcons who regressed in their 2nd seasons under new head coaches but in the process positioned themselves for greater staying power.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
I couldn't disagree more
Well, OK, I could :) I don’t think we’re a legit SB contender, but we’re not so far off. We’ve got a real shot at winning our division, IMO. Ten wins is doable and eleven isn’t out of the question.
It’s true that some teams have regressed in their 2nd year of a new coach, but it’s not a rule. Our defensive players have improved this year. Kenny Peterson and Andra Davis, guys who were terrible against the run (which was their main job btw), were replaced. It’s early, but I absolutely feel confident in saying Robert Ayers sounds like he’s made great strides and looks to have a breakout year. Elvis Dumervil looks to be focusing on taking off the heads of QB’s even more, while he’ll likely be subbed out in many running situations. Our third-ranked pass defense of last year got better with the nickle/dime additions of Nate Jones and Cox. Add in Phonz and some competition for these roster spots, and it’s hard to think our nickle and dime packages won’t be pretty scary to throw against.
The question really is whether Marshall’s departure will hurt us on offense more than Thomas, Decker, and the interior line upgrades will help us. We won’t be worse at QB. Scheff’s production last year was fairly substantial, but far from irreplaceable. Eddie Royal can only get better. Playbook can only open up. Players can only get more comfortable. Then add in Tebow in red-zone packages, and I think we’re def improved.
Add in that we’re in the same system on both sides and have an easier schedule.
In sum, the only big minuses I see are the loss of Nolan and Marshall. Put them on a scale with the label of bad and weigh it against the good… and I don’t see it even close. The Division is within reach, IMO.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
by Alex on May 29, 2010 4:05 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Have to agree with you there.
Ultimately to win the superbowl you theoretically need to be the best team in the NFL, while realistically you at least need to be in the top 4-6 and get on a good run. And I dont think we crack the top 6 though. We got a perfect .500 last year and we should just be looking to improve on that this year. Winning the superbowl is fine, but I think the aim with McD is to make a team that can content for a few years in a row. Thats why he sacrifices the possible production from Marshall for the sake of stability.
Now the question of Qb…
Does McD think holding Tebow out for most of his rookie year if not all (depending on change of pace situations) help the team most? Or does starting Tebow and risk poor play while he learns or even loss of confidence (Yes it probably is possible for Tebow to have a bit of dented confidence)?
"The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game." - Derek Robinson
"You've got to get your first tackle in early, even if it's late." - Ray Gravell
Here's the biggest place that I disagree with people....
Tebow is not your normal rookie. he wont fail, and he wont have his confidence dented. He will take his licks and keep coming back for more.
There are no facts or stats to back this up….its just a gut feeling I have from his demeanor, quality of work and leadership. He does have the IT factor.
I am not saying start him. But if we do, that will be the end of the QB competition. He will take some lumps but he will keep improving and persevering.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Thats more what I was getting at.
I dont think the real reason we dont start him is the confidence, its whether McD believes the team will be let down too much by the learning curve. I spose its hard for people to judge his confidence. He would get down occasionally, hes human, but it appears that adversity makes him stronger the next day.
"The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game." - Derek Robinson
"You've got to get your first tackle in early, even if it's late." - Ray Gravell
As an NFL prospect, why is he so special??
There have been lots of great college QBs that failed in the NFL. As a pro QB prospect, he has lots of question marks, if not flaws? Why did 20+ teams pass on him (and some of those had a need for a QB)? You say he “is not your normal rookie”. Obviously true in terms of college success and media hype. But as a pro QB prospect, he has more to change and to learn than the average 1st round QB.
“He wont fail” ?? Opinion? Blind faith?
With all he has to learn and all the changes he has to make (especially holding and throwing the ball), why is it best to advocate putting him in right away, rather than giving him time to develop and learn?
I believe in what McD is saying (the best man will play). We do not know who will be the best man at the start of the regular season, but it is not likely that it will be Tebow. Not many rookie QBs have success in the first year – and there are lots of examples of very high picks starting as rookies that failed – and evidence that starting before they are prepared contributed to their overall failure.
While I am a Tebow doubter, he is now a Bronco, so I hope he becomes a great Bronco QB. I believe the best chance is for him to learn and develop (without the pressure and failures that are likely if he starts immediately). That will likely take at least a year. Look at Rogers and Rivers, they both had the benefit of a couple years learning before they started (I know they played behind a couple of super QBs – although Brees was not very accomplished or highly regarded then).
We have a capable QB in Orton (and aside from Purdue, Orton has a lot in common with Brees in terms of QB strengths/weaknesses). I’m not saying Orton will be another Brees (unlikely, but at least feasible), but he is capable and he should start until someone else demonstrates to the coaches that they are better prepared to lead us to victory.
I see your point and agree for the most part. McD’s mantra has always been whoever is best will start. However, I would claim that this does not mean that there is an open competition at QB. Last year there was a competition between Orton and Simms with Orton finally getting the nod and being named the starter during preseason.
This year, McD has unambiguously said that Orton is the starter and that the position is his to lose. McD reserves the right to demote anyone if their play becomes inferior to the competition, but Orton is the clear starter at this point.
I would say that there is open competition for the 2nd string position since Sims was cut, and it will be interesting to see if we find a way to keep all 4 QBs (which seems unlikely).
Excellent post EJ. Rec'd!
IMO, Kyle Orton needs to be the starter for this year until someone beats him out or he is injured. I like McJedi’s philosophy of earning your gig. That means that whomever beats out Orton will be a better QB than he and also know the offense better and/or work better within the offense than Kyle Orton. That is a tall order at this time.
Quinn came from a situation where his confidence took hits because of how he was handled. This is an opportunity with a great upside. Even if he remains the backup here, it has a great upside. Working with one of the best QB coaches is quite an opportunity. I look for him to push Orton but he has a lot to overcome to become the starter – including learning the playbook and the offense. But he has ran an offense in the NFL and could run this one should Kyle not be available. And he appears to “fit” the system fairly well.
Tebow and TB both potential starters. Neither have taken a snap in the NFL and until they do, we can only speculate on how they will do. I hope that somehow TB is kept with the team.
Thanks, EJ, for your time and energy.
I think Kyle will step up (again)
This is what, the 3rd or 4th time he has either dealt with competition or a contract year that forces him to play his best. He has responded each time with a better effort and results. Out of the 4 QB’s, he has the most trade value, IMO. He has the most experience, the best W-L record, and the respect of his teammates. But he isn’t going anywhere. He has more value to the Broncos than any other team. Quinn on the other hand, has game experience, and may have value to another team out there. I think his highest value to our team is at #2, but one of the other 2 will have to beat him out. I don’t think Brandstater has shown anyone in the league a reason to value him, so if he is the one who goes, it will be the waiver wire for him.(and then we will see if he can be brought back on to the PS) We know that Tebow is not going to be up for grabs, so I believe if anyone goes, it will be Quinn.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
Great article but I completely disagree with the idea that
KO will be our starter all season. There is no reason to bring in two highly drafted QB’s to compete for the backup AB position. Kyle is oft injured and not mobile at all, doesn’t have a great arm but can “manage a game”. That is not what Josh is looking for, he is looking for a great QB to lead his team and that is not Kyle. Kyle is in the last year of his contract and has the most trade value he will ever have. He is getting the most reps because that is how you market a guy you are trying to trade and Josh is playing the game well. There is no way that he is the long term answer at QB and therefore he will not be back next year. Josh makes a lot of trades and knows how to get value for someone he doesn’t want (i.e. Cutler and Marshall) and that is what he is doing with Orton. Wait and see. Brady will be starting this season and we have our 3 QB’s as well as Tebow set to be the backup and therefore able to rotate in for the wild Tebow plays.
There is no I in team.
Excellent post EJ
This fits my thinking exactly.
The real QB competition is for the #2 QB slot… sure, there is a chance that someone beats out Orton, but given the relatively high performance he had last year, and the experience he has in the system, I think that’ll be a tough bar for the other 3 to surpass.
Tebow is around at least as the #3, so that leaves BQ and TB to fight it out for likely the 3rd and final position… we have very little invested in either one, so cutting either one shouldn’t surprise anyone. If we can get something in a trade, great… but by the time the competition result is clear my guess is it will be all waiver wire.
Carrying all 4 is possible, but given the young depth at WR, DL and DB and the injuries at Oline, I’m guessing we’ll want to keep extra folks in those places for when the old men leave in the future and/or the Oline shakes out.
There is no competition for #2
Tim Tebow will not be the 3rd string QB come game 1. The 3rd string cannot play any part of a game without the 1st string QB not being allowed back into that game. Tebow will get into each game even if it is for a few plays. Athletically he is too good not to. That leaves Orton or Quinn. Only 1 will make it. The other will be traded before September. Take it to the bank !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
I don't think this rule exists. Does it?
Somebody back me up?
This would make Michael Vick’s appearances last year very, very strategic? Or some sort of loop hole.
I don’t think so.
That is only if the 3rd QB is on the Inactive Game Day list
If he is on the 45 man gameday roster he can play anytime and substitute in and out as many times as the coach wants.
If he is on the Inactive part, then a #rd QB can enter the game in the 4th quarter ONLY if the other active QB’s have been knocked out of the game. Aka, the Emergency 3rd QB Rule.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
+1 Correct emergency only - take it to the bank.
Brandstater was on the 53 but never on the 45 game day roster, hence the reason he can be put on the PS if he clears waivers.
oc60
"Do not dwell in the past. Do not dream of the future.
Concentrate the mind on the present moment."
3 QBs can rotate in a game, but ...
From nfl.com:
" the third-quarterback rule was instituted to enable teams to have an emergency quarterback available who was not on the 45-man game-day active roster, since many teams, for strategic purposes, only carried two quarterbacks on their game-day roster.
Everybody thinks they understand the NFL’s “third-quarterback” rule. But do they?
The rule states that if a third quarterback is inserted before the fourth quarter, a team’s first two quarterbacks cannot be used in the game at any position.
Another aspect of the rule is sometimes misunderstood. It is a coach’s decision as to whether a third quarterback will be used.
The active quarterbacks do not have to be injured for a team to use its third quarterback."
This is how McNabb, Kolb, and Vick could play (either all 3 were active, or the 3rd did not play until the 4th qtr).
WestCoast does make a great point. But I view this issue differently. I do not view Tebow as being ready to be the primary backup (at least not until around mid-season or later). I agree, for most games, that McD will prefer depth over having three active QBs. So if he wants to use Tebow during the first three quarters, he will have Tebow as the active backup (#2), and Quinn or Brandstater as the emergency QB. The problem with this, is that if Orton gets hurt, then if the emergency QB is played before the fourth quarter, then Tebow could not play any more either. So McD would have a difficult decision – stay with an inexperienced Tebow until the fourth quarter, or finish the full game with the emergency backup QB. Most likely, at the start of the season, Tebow will be the 3rd string emergency QB – and not play until the fourth quarter. If/when Tebow becomes ready to lead the complete offense, then he will be promoted to #2 (active on game day).
Sorry cohiker
We were writing at the same time. LOL
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
"WE CANT TRADE OUR BEST QB" -- my (not so) elaborate theory - -
1. McDaniels doesn’t think Orton is his QB long term, evidenced by recent activities.
2. Orton, therefore, will eventually lose the job.
3. Orton’s value will be at it’s highest before he loses the job, not after. Think Delhome trade VS McNabb trade.
4. Trading Orton while at his peak (a la Cassell) would be a major coup for draft 2011.
5. Orton’s destiny is very uncertain because of his UFA status. We may lose control after 2010 unless we sign the longer and larger contract, or franchise….ugh.
6. There will be several teams wishing they had a better QB come pre-season (Buffalo, Jacksonville, Cleveland, Tampa, maybe some injuries? who knows?
7. A temporary (hopefully) downgrade to Quinn or Tebow as starting QB, might be worth it in order to trade Orton now and get his best value. Especially if McD knows what is going to happen and doesn’t want to destroy Orton’s value all together.
8. McD has made an art form of building value in players, or draft picks, then trading them away.
This is not too far fetched, especially given #5 and #1 above.
Anybody want to trade for a 3rd rounder?
Give me a starting tackle and I'm game
I think Orton is our best QB today. But I have a hard time believing that McDaniels can’t make Tebow or Quinn about as good as Orton was last year… by game-one… IF that guy is getting more reps. Right now, so far, with 80+ people in camp, four QB’s hasn’t been a problem. That will change very soon.
To be clear, I’m not protesting to move Kyle. I’m only saying I would fully understand it if we did. Sure, there’s a risk that our team will be negatively affected in the short term (slightly), but we’ll be the negative future effects of putting Tebow and Quinn on the backburner – for a short timer – may be the greater evil. In the end, I believe it comes down to McDaniels’ faith in Tebow and/or Quinn to effectively start in week-one. That’s something we really can’t guess on. But if he gains that faith pretty soon, then I think Orton is good as gone. (The reason I keep saying soon, is because if half of TC is already over before we don’t “need” Orton, then it’s not worth a 3rd rounder to move him since we already wasted half of TC giving him all the reps.)
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
The problem with this is that McD didnt make Orton . He was able to get a QB in which another team had already took the lumps trying to develop and were stupid enough to let him go .
Both Brady and Tebow have a long way to go to get to the point where Orton was when he arrived here last April. ’
Orton came from a spread offense in Purdue and spent 4 years learning how to take snaps from under center with the various drops and learning how to read defenses while doing it.
He spent 4 years learning the value of protecting the football and playing a ball control field position sort of game .
JmD took the skills Orton already had been developing and tweaked them and allowed Orton to begin to expand them.
Quinn and Tebow have to be taught certain things about the NFL that Orton already knew and success doing before we got him and thats why Orton is still here and thats why if he takes another step this year he will probably be signed longterm.
by Hoopforia on May 29, 2010 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
All this talk Hoop is based on the ASSUMPTION our offense is the same as it was last year...
McD is quoted as saying the offense has changed so much that all the QB’s are essentially starting from the same point. Everyone is forming opinions based on an assumption that could be frankly wrong.
I will be doing a post about it.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Also
When talking up Orton everyone always throws out the most notably stats.. 3800 yards, 21 TD’s, 12 Ints., progressing every year he has played, etc. What we dont know and we have no way of ever knowing is what MCD saw. Whose to say he didnt expect Orton to throw for 4300 yards and 25 TD’s? We will never know.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
The point, IMO
Isn’t how good or bad Orton is. To focus on that, IMO, would be a mistake. The issue is “the four QB’s”. The issue is that Kyle Orton has no future with Denver Broncos, IMO. The issue isn’t whether he’s leaving… It’s when and for how much.
The point here, is that Quinn’s “readiness” would answer that. And that is the part we should be debating, in my humble opinion.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
Our offense is the same Boydy . The terminology and everything else is the same which is why you hear about Eddie and others being better in the system in season
What we are doing is adding more plays and probably a wider variety but the offense is still the same .
Thats essentially what these camps are for . Everyone gets to learn the new plays all at the same time by practicing them over and over but come training camp the playcalls will include both new and old plays and be based around what the defense is actually doing . But the when they run a new play for the first time yes everyone is at the same point in running the new plays .But this is pretty much the same for every team in the league in minicamp
As Kyle said they are just lining up right now and running the play they are not game planning the defense which is why the defense after it sees the same play 15 times ver the course of 3 days start to get amazing jumps on the ball
I dont agree.....because last years offense, frankly was boring and devoid of anything land breaking.....
Thats my opinion. To run the same scheme as what Kansas, against the guy who invented it, makes no sense, and also against the guys who knows it better from a defensive standpoint.
I am hoping to God that McD is smarter than that, otherwise, you can chalk up struggling against the Chiefs as well!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
This is year two of the offense Boydy last year we put in our base system now the tweaking based on personell can begin since hes had a year to evaluate .
Lets say last year at minicamp everyone on the offense given a playbook with 50 plays in it .
By the time we played our last game of the season he had added 100 more plays
So at the end of the season our playbook had 150 plays
No at this years minicamp the rookies will get a playbook with a 150 plays + another playbook that has the 50 new plays and tweaks that we are installing in minicamp
The vets will simply get a new playbook with 50 plays
In minicamp you want your 1st team working on the 50 new plays while getting occasional work on the old plays as well.
The playbook is always expanding and I guarantee you that we are not starting from scratch .We had some things that worked and others that didnt he simply wont call the plays that were not as successful as much anymore unless he really likes it .
hes spoken at length about how in there second year he expects certain plays to be able to hit the ground running so why would he then go back and have them start the process all over again .
I fully expect to see some of the same calls but I also think he will simply call games more aggressively as last year he seemed to get caught up in the trying to help our defense instead of doing what he normally would do which is to try and score as many points as possible right from the start of the game
what we saw last year was the base for ALL offenses....it was that basic and underwhelming....
And any QB on our roster could have ran it.
I am hoping we are doing a lot of stuff different than other teams…and that uses the talents our players have.
McDaniels has built this team on all sides of the ball with Tebow in mind….no doubt in my mind about it.
Orton will be able to run it effectively, but it wont have half as much in it due to Orton’s mobility issues that he could use if Tebow is QB.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
actually what we saw last year was a pretty diverse selection of plays being run
We ran everything from 4-5 wide to 3TE’s and there are very few teams running both ends of the spectrum like that..
But in football the fact remains when you are having trouble blocking you are limited in what you can run .
I dont think josh is building anything around Tebow right now that would be just silly . it also would be against everything hes said in the past around building around one guy. lets say he spends all offseason installing these plays strictly for Tebow and then Tebow gets hurt ? You mean we would only have half a playbook until he got healthy ? No coach would do that stuff .
I think he is installing plays based around the fact that his starting qb and receivers are now more familiar with the offense and now he can install the most important part of his offense .
THE NO HUDDLE
His offenses success has always been based around using the no huddle to get the defense locked into base formation while the offense is moving people around exploiting the holes in the base . I think this is what he is moving towards this season
No, he is building a system around Tebow strengths, but one that can dummed down for other QB's....
I am sure there will be some gadget plays for Tebow, but he is building a system, on both sides of the ball, that play to Tebow’s strengths: mobility, play making ability and his strong arm.
Under Orton or Quinn, it can be dialled back.
I just did a whole post about it. Maybe go read it to see where I am coming from.
Point being: The offense is designed to run better under Tebow and will only be simplified version in the advent of Orton or Quinn.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
LOL dummed down ?
Cmon now he is not building an offense around someone who has never played a down only to have it be ran by someone who would require to “supposedly” to not run the majority of the plays .
This is the same offense he would be installing whether Tebow was here or not . Will he insert a few goal line plays sure he can but its the same offense.
by Hoopforia on May 29, 2010 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
So you think that he wont be able to do more with a QB that can throw and run...
It makes no sense for him to not use Tebow’s mobility.
SO if there are things in the playbook the other QB;s cant do due to athletic ability…then yes…the playbook is minimized or dummed down.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
I've got to agree
Kyle Orton has been quoted to be and has been noticed to be very comfortable out there. Most things are the exact same. We’re adding some things. We’ll also be throwing more balls vertically and spreading the offense out this year, but it’s still the same termonology and basics.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
I just listened to the McD comments that you felt supported that
Not to quibble, but I didn’t hear anything like that statement. What McD did say was very different – What he said was that the QBs are essentially starting at the same point to learn the new plays. However, the vast majority of the plays aren’t different. They change some things every year, and those will be new to all QBs. the rest is very much in Orton’s favor. Expanding this comment to
McD is quoted as saying the offense has changed so much that all the QB’s are essentially starting from the same point.
is something that I could find in any of the comments. here is what I did find, though:
Reps at QB
Kyle’s definitely getting the most, and he deserves to, there’s no question about that…We’ve been flopping them all around. The only thing that’s really consistent is that Kyle’s in the first huddle. And some of that is, they need to get work with different players in the huddle. We’re trying to make sure that they don’t get their reps with the two same receivers, or same center, you know, and in order to do that, you know, there’s a lot of coach who are making sure that they get a lot of work with different quarterbacks.
If you’re going to insert a QB into an offense in September, you get him equal or more reps from OTAs on to prepare him. But here’s something else that McD did say:
Like the rookies for example right now -they’re out are out here right now: their heads are spinning, you know? When you’re heads spinning, you can’t play football the way that you know you can play football because it’s hard to just go as fast as you can and play with the speed that you need to be competitive
Tebow is one of those rookies, and his head is spinning. He’s said as much. Is there all that big a difference between your first year camps and your second? McD again:
…a lot of those second year players are really starting to come on, you know. The game’s slowed down; you can tell. It makes everybody better because we’ve got 11 guys out there who know the game at the speed that they’re playing.
This is really the ultimate argument, to me. When you talk about how McD ‘should’ be able to get Quinn or Tebow (fans’ choice) ready to lead the team by September, you’re ignoring one of the basic tenets of professional football – it’s much, much more complex than most fans are aware. No one is ready in their first season. Sometimes that matters more than others, but it’s a fact of life. Orton is getting the most 1st team reps. Nothing that has been said differs from that. He’s the most familiar with the system and he’s the #1 QB at this time and so he’s getting the biggest share of the reps. In other words, they are preparing him to start in September. They should, too.
Gnothi Seauton
by Doc Bear on May 29, 2010 5:54 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
Hoop-- and other apologists
There is no question that Orton (and his market value) have increased since he paired up with McD.
For proof of this, look directly at the Cutler trade. There is this undertone , in many arguments, that Orton was just Cutler’s replacement. He WASN"T!!
The trade was for Chicago’s draft picks.. In 2009 AND 2010, Chicago had no significant picks! They gave us almost everything they had! They owned Orton for 4 years and thought he was worth almost nothing!
My opinion is that McD absolutely needed a QB as part of the trade on Cutler, and Orton was perfectly cheap (but not terrible, and not without potential!!) and Chicago desperately wanted to move on.
No question his performance last year (in McD’s system that was painfully tailored to Orton’s limited abilities), his increased his value. And McD is too smart to let that value evaporate as he becomes UFA.
Buck what are you talking about ? Orton was apart of the deal all along . No Orton no deal .
Orton was one of the leaders of the Bears lockerrom no way could they have Orton on that team when Cutler arrived .
So yes Orton was Cutlers replacement as in Josh felt he was the best QB available that could help him implement his system .
Josh didnt tailor the offense around Orton lol in fact he went out of his way to make sure his offense last year wasnt tailored around any one person .
For once, we agree, but not for long
Without Orton there is no deal. But—
The point value of the combined picks (#11 in 2010, #12 in 2009 to start with)is huge! According to the chart, we got Orton and a boatload of points. Chicago got Cutler and a few points. The difference in value of the two packages is the difference in talent, potential, leadership, performance, …whatever. According to the two teams and their trained staffs of professionals going into 2009.
So, we DID need a QB band-aid as a way to get the Cutler situation resolved. Anybody who was bidding on him was going to have to present a viable alternative at that position. However, the compensation was in the PICKS!!
It’s like selling your 2006 BMW for $40,000 . A guy shows up and says he’ll give you $39,000 AND throw in his 2004 Honda Accord. You say “yes” and drive home in the Accord, but after you tune it up and give it a paint job, you sell it for $6,500. (and start driving your NEW BMW!)
I contend that Orton is currently valued at a higher level, than he was then (or will be in the future). I give credit to McD for 75% of that, because he has tailored the offense for his skill set in a way that will make other GM’s around the league interested in what Orton is GOOD at, not what he is BAD at….which is a little harder to find evidence of, thanks to McD
Orton was one of the leaders of the Bears lockerrom no way could they have Orton on that team when Cutler arrived .
Erroneous :) Orton is a leader in our locker room. We brought in the prince or prince’s, the kink of king’s… We brought in The Tebow. Granted, it’s not entirely the same, as Tebow’s not expected to start, but the premise is the same: We brought in a replacement and kept Orton. Anyway, think of it this way: Even if you hold that they couldn’t keep Orton, they could have traded him elsewhere. They didn’t have to give him to us as a “throw in” player.
I won’t go so far as to say Coach “tailored” the offense around Kyle. I will say, though, that it was at least tweaked to mask his inabilities and flaws. The play calling was certainly handcuffed at least to some degree.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
Hey, buck
Calling anyone who doesn’t agree with you an apologist is what is called an ‘Ad Hominem’ argument – you can’t support your belief, so you belittle anyone who disagrees by calling them that. It’s a cheap shot, and you’re obviously smarter than that. Your statements call into question what part of this is fact and what part simply suits your feelings, and that’s what you admitted to in your third comment. Yes, it’s your opinion, and nothing wrong with that. But it’s just your opinion. You don’t know that or have a source that directly was involved. Name calling is uncalled for.
Gnothi Seauton
should read "Hoop and other Orton supporters"?
does that fix the argument?
Would the same standard apply to an argument containing the phrase “…Orton Bashers…” or “Tebow Fan Club” or “Quinn Lovers” to identify a group of like minded individuals?
I really try to avoid the logical fallacies, but this one slipped by. Are you taking exception to “apologist” because it has a negative connotation, and therefore amounts to “name calling” ?
All animals are created equal, some animals are just more equal than others.?
If you and I agreed on this topic, would it have warranted the same reply?
This comes off as snarky on my part…. It isn’t.
Yep, same reply
Same as koolaiders, bashers, and any other general label that you would like. About once or twice each year folks around here have talked about labels and not using, them, so yes, I guess that it would be. If it stuffs folks who disagree with you into one bin and labels it, I feel the same way.
Gnothi Seauton
I'm pretty sure someone did a post on this
Civil War. So while I feel it’s fine to state you opinion and share facts, but to target people and start to bash them isn’t helpful to anyone, keep it civil. This isn’t meant to just you Buck, by the way.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
you guys are off your rockers
if this title read “Buck and other bashers,” neither of you would bother to post or point out debate club rules. Especially considering the prevalence of arguments containing one or more logical fallacies all over these pages.
The position referenced in the above mentioned posts, is plenty well supported. Of course its all opinion.
Also, It’s not like I called him (or them) idiots, or illiterate. Nor did I say, “since you don’t agree with me, you must be a moron, and anyone else who disagrees is therefore a moron too.”
Hey I try to stay out of this
And I in no way make any rules, and I agree some people ignore the facts, but this wasn’t an a attack on you so don’t treat it like one.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on May 31, 2010 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions
I probably shouldn't have included Tebow in the statement
That McD could have him as ready as Orton as last year. It was typed fast, as evidence by the uncomprehendable jibberish in the middle :) Good points, though. I agree that Orton wouldn’t have done as well last year without already having spent time in the NFL. I think that argument holds weight against supporting Tebow for game-one. But again, I take that back. It was just a mistake on my part. I don’t think Tebow could be as ready for game-one as Kyle was last year.
Brady Quinn is another story. He’s probably ahead of the learning curve at this point from where Kyle was last year. He’s got a stronger arm and is more mobile. He fits the system better. He was in Weiss’ system and understood much of the termonology already.
To be clear, I’m not saying I want Quinn to start. I’m saying he could probably start this year as effectively as Kyle did last year… IF he gets the reps. And the only reason I bring it up isn’t to knock Kyle, but only to say that four QB’s is too many – if Kyle ends up traded (since he’s on the shortest contract, least amount of upside, cost the most to extend, etc..), I have faith that Josh can get Quinn prepared.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
I dont see Orton going for anymore then a 4th (at best)
More likely a 5
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
We'll get that much
as a compensatory pick if he leaves in free agency
All that you behold, though it appears without, it is within, in your imagination, of which this world of mortality is but a shadow...and one day you’ll awake and find that you’ve never lived and never died, except in the dream.
William Blake
I think he is a 4th or a 5th too
But one of two things has to happen; 1) he performs well in 2010 and we have to sign him in order to trade him (and compete with other offers). Maybe his value goes up or maintains.
OR 2) he plays poorly (or the BRONCOS play poorly and he is blamed) and he gets benched. This would put his value to rock bottom. And he probably walks after 2010.
So should we get as much as possible for him now?…from somebody that needs him because they are in a pinch, be it by injury or poor planning.
I think we could get a late 2nd rounder for him
IF he performs well again this year – all year. If he’s replaced this year in mid-season, I agree, his value shoots down. As of right now, I think he’s worth a 3/4.
November, gentlemen. We go again to their house and we make it OUR MF house!! We take our Crown from those punks, not from around those punks! We take it in November and we protect it in January. Two wins. That's it. Take it!!!
Nice post Buck
But Tampa just drafted a Qb in the 1st round 2 years ago. No way they move on from that this fast. Plus, I watched a few games of his and he looked the part. Great potential.
Other then that I totally agree with your post.
You probably get this a lot. This isn't the real Caesar's Palace is it?....Did Caesar live here?
You know where I wanna go? I'll tell you where. Someplace warm. A place where the beer flows like wine. Where beautiful women instinctively flock like the salmon of Capistrano. I'm talking about a little place called Aspen
That's pry true
And I like Freeman. But Tampa better win some games soon, or his leash is going to get real short.
I always thought opinions were like a-holes...though maybe the saying is different in my neck of the woods. :)
rec’d!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Censorship...
I made it family-friendly!
MileHighReport.com member since 02/06/07, promoted to "Position Coach" (i.e. new staff writer) on 02/16/10!
Fantasy football has changed the world!
EJ your post is well written and rec’d. This is what we know about our QBs and coach.
All four of them did well in college.
One of them has played well at the NFL level in both Denver and Chicago.
One of them has improved every year in the league.
One of them didn’t play well in Cleveland.
Two of them havn’t taken a snap in the regular season and are unknown.
Our coach was successful in New England when working under Bellichick.
Our coach did a good job with Cassell when with the Patriots.
Matt Cassell didn’t tear up the league last year in KC.
Our coach wasn’t successful with Chris Simms.
So far, our coach hasn’t has any success with Tom B.
Awesome, EJ!
rec’d!
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on May 28, 2010 10:56 PM MDT reply actions
E.J. Great article
Agree with almost everything but Orton starting all season. Something I think we have to be aware of that McD wasn’t any too happy at the end of the season. The problem is Orton only did so-so job depending who you talk to his first year. It requires being better than so-so to win championships or even make it to the playoffs. Lets face it Orton has been in the league 5+years and he’s not the answer long term.
All McD had to do was signed an experience QB to replace Simms as #2. If Orton is the man McD covets, he wouldn"t have had to trade for Quinn or drafted Tim Tebow. It’’s pure speculation on my part that Orton is currently the starting QB for the benefit of Tebow & Quinn to learn from Orton, the traits of a professional and how he prepares for games, and how he leads by example, how to build in the camaradarie on the team. That’s the real benefit for keeping Orton as the starter.
I believe Orton represents the Broncos best with his mentorship & teaching talent. Tebow & Quinn will learn the ropes sorta speak. He brings good intelligents and could be in valuable towards the development of both Tebow & Quinn. Again, this is pure speculation on my part.
Bring in 2 QB’s during the off season isn’t a ringing endorsement for Orton. Six of the nine draft picks were on the offensive side. Two of the defensive players were drafted for special teams and the return game. This to me is a real sign how aggressive McD plans to be for the coming season.
Each QB has their own skill set and talent they will use during TC. The best results will determine who can best run the new McD offense. The decision will be made who starts Orton or Quinn during or after TC. Yes, I think Tebow will sit during the first part of the season as #3 and Brandstater will be waived and hopefully make our Practice Squad.
Once the first few games are completed McD will decide at that time to keep Orton as the starter or start Quinn. If Quinn starts Tebow will be promoted to #2 and be a part of the offense and do his thing in the red-zone. I believe Quinn & Tebow will run the new offense better than Orton. The challenge for coach McD during the season – keep winning while implement his new offense and developing his QB’s.
At first I was among the fan’s who thought Orton would be traded, but actually he offers Broncos more by staying and mentoring Tebow & Quinn. Even if we don’t get any compensation at the end of the season his value in developing Tebow & Quinn far out weight just trading or waiving him after TC. The debate will go on until September.
Great read EJruiz… Always nice to stimulate someone’s mind, thanks.
oc60
"Do not dwell in the past. Do not dream of the future.
Concentrate the mind on the present moment."
Kyle Orton
Orton will play so well the Broncos will have to give him a new contract. Quinn will be traded by oct. He has more trade value than hillis did and that is why he was brought here.
by Utah Broncos fan on May 30, 2010 9:12 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd
Nice write up ej. MSM don’t write for free and out of pure enjoyment of the game as often as people like you do, and it shows.
"The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game." - Derek Robinson
"You've got to get your first tackle in early, even if it's late." - Ray Gravell
Tim Tebow will eventually be the qb of the broncos.
He will prove al the naysayers wrong, especially mel kiper jr. what did mel kiper say about jamarcus russell. in three years this guy will be an elite qb. lmao!
I'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. I was building a house, I don't deserve this, deserves have nothing to do with it. Bang. "Unforgiven" I drink your milkshake. I drink it up! "There Will BE Blood". Hell is just a word, the reality is much much worse." Event Horizon". Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean, I mean plumb, mad dog mean. cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live or win. That's just the way it is. "The Outlaw Josey Wales". "And that's just what these hustlers look for. They cruise from casino to casino looking for weak dealers the way lions look for weak antelope". Ace Rothstein, The Movie "Casino" 1995. My name is puzzy, puzzy galore. I must be in heaven. "Goldfinger" The man with the midas touch. To protect the sheep you gotta catch the wolf, and it takes a wolf to catch a wolf. "Training Day".
by wolfmanshowlforever on Jun 1, 2010 1:56 PM MDT reply actions
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