Shout (Out) At The Devil - Thank You, San Diego Chargers!
by TJ Johnson on Jun 16, 2010 10:07 AM MDT
Email
PrintOne should rarely heap praise upon division rivals. While it might seem like a technically sound thing to do, it simply leaves you feeling a little dirty inside and you fall asleep at night knowing you've probably put bad karma into the world.
But there's always an exception.
So today, it's time to salute the San Diego Chargers.
The road to the AFC West title just got easier, and not because Elvis Dumervil signed his 1-year tender.
Contract disputes have put the San Diego Chargers in a tough position, and because of it, the Chargers are likely going to play at least 10 of their regular-season games without the services of Pro-Bowl wide receiver Vincent "Action" Jackson and Pro-Bowl left tackle Marcus McNeil. Both Jackson and McNeil wanted new deals and refused to show up and sign their 1-year tender offers by the mandated June 15th deadline. After A.J. "I'm Smarter Than You Are" Smith decided not to budge, well, let's just say, the Denver Broncos--along with the rest of the AFC West--got a nice off-season gift.
As of today, it appears the best case scenario puts Jackson and McNeil on the field in week 11. But so what? Big deal. By that time, the damage could have already been done. The Chargers could be sitting in last place. And eventually, the Broncos have to play at least .500 football in their last six weeks, right?
It's possible it could even get worse for the Chargers. Jackson is also threatening to hold out the entire 2010 season, although it would seem unlikely. According to Mike Florio:
"Indications we've picked up suggest his camp is unfazed by the looming (as of Tuesday) decrease in his tender offer to 110 percent of his 2009 base salary, and that Jackson likewise has no qualms about holding out into the season because he expects to be suspended for at least two games in the wake of his second DUI guilty plea."
Losing your starting left tackle is never a pretty sight, we all know that, but how big of a loss is Jackson? It depends on who you ask. But we know in order to make Norv Turner's vertical offense a success, Philip Rivers needs to stretch the field. Without Jackson's deep threat abilities, things just got a lot tougher.
One could make an easy case for Vincent Jackson (not Brandon Marshall) as the best receiver in the NFL. First, let's cast aside the meaningless quantitative stats of total yardage and number of catches, which simply increase or decrease with the number of targets. As we saw with Marshall, if you are targeted 154 or 181 times in a season, and you don't have 100 catches, you should be shot (or at least quarantined in Oakland). Instead, we'll focus on several non-traditional rate stats, which allow us to more fairly compare wide-outs.
According to friend Brian Burke over at Advanced NFL Stats, here are the top-5 wide receiver rankings from 2009 with respect to Yards Per Target:
| Player (Minimum 50 Targets) | Team | YPT |
|---|---|---|
| 17-R.Meachem | NO | 11.3 |
| 83-V.Jackson | SD | 10.9 |
| 18-S.Rice | MIN | 10.8 |
| 88-H.Nicks | NYG | 10.7 |
| 19-M.Austin | DAL | 10.7 |
Yards Per Target is a much more meaningful stats than Yards Per Catch because it accounts for all passes thrown at a receiver, not just the ones that he's caught. If you were wondering, Brandon Marshall ranked 45th on this list, with a YPT average of 7.3 yards. But the point of this post isn't to blast Brandon Marshall (it's only a sub-plot). It's to show that Jackson can stretch the field. And it's clear from these numbers (his yards per targeted pass was 2nd in the league) that he can do just that.
How does this translate to the potential to score? We can can also break last year down by Expected Points Value Per Play to see which receivers created the most value for their teams. Here are the top-5 from 2009, again according to Advanced NFL Stats:
| Player (Minimum 50 Targets) | EPA/P |
|---|---|
| 17-R.Meachem | 0.82 |
| 83-V.Jackson | 0.71 |
| 18-S.Rice | 0.71 |
| 81-J.Avant | 0.62 |
| 19-M.Austin | 0.56 |
Jackson ranked #2 in the league, creating, on average, .71 points each time he touched the ball. What about Brandon Marshall? He ranked 31st, creating, on average, .28 points each time he touched the ball. But to boosters of the 100-catch club (and the Miami Dolphins), expected points matter little.
The last stat worthy of attention is called Success Rate, and it's defined by our friend Brian Burke as:
It's the percent of plays in which the player participated that result in an increase in net expected point advantage. [Success Rate] measures consistency as opposed to the total magnitude of each play's outcome.
In other words, how often did a player contribute to his team's positive outcomes when he was out on the field? For wide receivers in 2009, here were the top-5, according to Advanced NFL Stats:
| Player (Minimum 50 Targets) | Team | Success Rate (%) |
|---|---|---|
| 83-K.Walter | HST | 67.1 |
| 81-J.Avant | PHI | 65.5 |
| 17-R.Meachem | NO | 65.3 |
| 18-S.Rice | MIN | 63.2 |
| 83-V.Jackson | SD | 62.4 |
These are some interesting numbers, and for Jackson, it meant that 62.4% of the time, he contributed to a positive expected points value, whether through blocking or receiving. Since Jackson has the reputation as one of the best blocking wide receivers in the game, this shouldn't come as a surprise.
Marshall's percentage you ask? A rather limp 52.6%. But again, this article isn't about how over-rated Brandon Marshall was (yes, it is), it's about Vincent Jackson. And the truth is that Jackson stretches the field consistently,fights for the ball in the air, blocks like a truck, isn't afraid to go over the middle, and is a load for any corner back to handle.
Now, the counter to all of this is Philip Rivers. What came first, the chicken (Rivers) or the egg (Jackson)? Did Rivers make Jackson the All-Pro wide-out he is today or did Jackson make Rivers look good? Certainly, one could make a compelling case that Malcom Floyd, San Diego's "other" receiver, wasn't far from Jackson in any of these statistical categories. So perhaps Rivers just makes everyone around him better.
In 2010, he'll certainly get the chance. Without the benefit of Jackson and a starting left tackle, we'll get to see--maybe for the first time in his career--just how good Philip Rivers really is.
The fact that Elvis Dumervil, who will be rushing Rivers' weakened blindside, just signed his own 1-year tender makes it all the more interesting.
629 comments
|
14 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
C'Mon, Marshall is Teh AWESOME
He caught 100 passes for THREE seasons. Who cares if they had to throw the ball to him like 180 times per year for him to get those catches. Who cares if his yards after the catch was low. I’ve seen him run, and he runs pretty. Plus, he made a one-handed catch once.
This statistical foo-faw is silly. I can count, and 100 is a big number. Marshall is clearly a top-2 receiver in the NFL. I’m sick of all the apologists for McStoopid! Chibronx is the only honest man in town! Nobody else has the guts to criticize!
by Chibronx on Jun 16, 2010 10:15 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm done arguing with you, Chibronx! Take your 100 catches and go home:-)
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
If you think that the Broncos passing game
will even resemble last years without Marshall, you’re kidding yourself.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions
I think thats a
rather loaded statement…..
For starters….it CAN’T resemble last years…..because of the fact that Brandon Marshall IS gone…but if your implication is that it won’t be nearly as successful….while I cannot refute a statement like that I can say that we drafted two great receivers with potential to meet or exceed Marshall’s production in every way. No, this may not happen in one year, and it may NEVER happen….but it is VERY possible. Being a bolt fan I wouldn’t expect you to necessarily understand…but without Jackson you guys are hurting, more so than we will without Marshall.
So So…CalBoltFan, I can confidently say that our passing game will NOT resemble last years and I can say that with a smile on my face, because of the jaw dropping potential of Bey-Bey and Decker. Our receiving corps is still very strong, and we don’t have our #1 receiver holding out like a pouting little baby. In fact the biggest issue we have is with Doom and he DID sign his tender because he is confident that the team will come through for him, and he is a TEAM player…not a self player.
On that note I would simply like to say, go ahead and throw Jackson our way…We would gladly take him off your hands if the price is right.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
I can say that we drafted two great receivers with potential to meet or exceed Marshall’s production in every way. No, this may not happen in one year, and it may NEVER happen….but it is VERY possible.
Its HIGHLY unlikely.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions
toss an average receiver a ball 180 times and i bet he catches 100 of them
its nothing spectacular.
Toss the ball to a great receiver 180 times and I bet he catches 130 of them!
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
That's the thing though.
Marshall is not an average WR.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
that is one's opinion
In my opinion, as many times as he had thrown the ball, he should have caught it a lot more!
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
That's the opinion of more than just one.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
ah
but be careful of what u hear and see, the MSM is rarely accurate in regards to sports
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
Marshall is a Diva
Like most Diva’s he’s good at selling his skills by what he talks about and embelishing his accomplishments.
What has he REALLY accomplished that mattered to a team?
Not much.
I like Marshall…I was an apologist…but I still don’t think he is an elite receiver. he’s good…but not elite. Decker and Thomas have the potential to absolutely WRECK his stats
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Whatever makes you feel better about Marshall leaving.
He’s an elite receiver though. I think Bronco fans are the only ones who will disagree with me on that.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions
no...they aren't
and the only way he ever WILL be an elite receiver is if he gets his head out of his ass.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Not really
T.O. and Moss are both drama queens yet both are likely headed to Canton, so it’s not really necessary.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 16, 2010 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions
umm...not my point
yes they are both drama queens…but they both have done whats necessary to ALSO get to Canton
Marshall has not. He may make it. he may not. but its dependent on getting his work ethic together.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
But Marshall is still young
Where as both Moss and T.O. are getting to the end of their careers. Of course Marshall hasn’t done enough to go to Canton, few do in their first few years, but if has the same steady success for the rest of his career, he will likely be going in that direction. As for his work ethic, he doesn’t seem to be skipping any camps or OTA’s out of his free will, injury takes him away, but he still shows up and does what he can.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
well...thats debateable
I just don’t think Marshall is going to be a TO or Moss. I didn’t think that when he was with us. Did I think he was very good, and at the time our best Receiver? yes.
But do I see him getting his head out of his rectum any time soon? no.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
I didn't say that
But if he catches 100+ balls and 1000+ yards for the majority of his remaining career like he has so far, he should in consideration for Canton.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
to that extent
yes I agree
But looking at TJ’s stats…we see that he has minimal contribution DESPITE his high numbers. I for one wanted to see him go to the show with us, but I just don’t know if he will ever get there now…
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Miami has a pretty good team
Their defense will struggle, but they have a lot of offensive weapons, so it will be interesting to see how their division plays out.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
true.
it will be interesting, and much like Shannahan I will always have a soft spot for marshall despite whats been said by me at any point. I have disagreements with how he handles himself. but I’ll always wish he had just gotten his ego in check and stayed
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
the problem with evaluating B Marsh
is that he is an elite physical talent (absolutely top 5 in NFL) without elite receiving skills. His physical dominance is hard to ignore (particularly for the less football savvy), but it is this athleticism that acts as a crutch, keeping him “successful” without forcing him to truly hone his craft. We’ll see if he ever does.
by MGM on Jun 16, 2010 4:03 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree with this MGM
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Me too.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Agree
A good example of this is when he would always turn around and face the ball to catch it rather than catching it on the run.
by BroncoMike87 on Jun 17, 2010 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions
You think?
I don’t see TO making the Hall- too much of a putz over the years. He’s got numbers yeah, but he’s also got the Rep.
I think the Rep will keep him out.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 16, 2010 2:54 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree he might not make it
But he will be on the ballot, look at Irvin, he won a few Super Bowls with the Cowboys, which helps, but while his character issues, numerous sexual assault allegations as well as arrests, slowed him down, he still made it in.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Could be
Seems like the Team Wrecker Rep would be antithetical to the Hall, but I guess we’ll see.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 16, 2010 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree it doesn't help
But he hasn’t been arrested, charged with anything or had any “foot-in-mouth” statement yet. So while Irvin was a great player, he struggled personally, similar to Roethlisberger, yet he still made it in.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
He's been a force for the past few years.
There’s no denying it, unless of course, you’re in denial.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions
He's slow and can't catch over his shoulder
He was a great possession receiver, and had great size to get the YAC, but the fact is, until he can learn to catch a ball in stride he will never be an elite receiver.
by SoCalBronco1998 on Jun 16, 2010 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions
An argument can be made that
what he lacks in catching the ball in stride, he makes up for in YAC.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 4:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah but at the same time
an argument can be made that his YAC would be much higher if he didnt pirouette everytime he had the ball thrown to him.
Dont get me wrong, he is good. But he isn’t great.
by SoCalBronco1998 on Jun 16, 2010 4:25 PM MDT up reply actions
I'll pose the same question to you that I posed to chibronx below
What is your criteria for the word “elite.”
I offered some of Marshall’s statistics in the response to Chibronx.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jun 16, 2010 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Why don't you ask Miami
that question? I guarantee, they will have a lot better reasons why they signed him then you have for why they shouldn’t.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
They paid an INSANE amount of money for a good, not great, possession WR...and one who struggles to catch anything when he is not facing his own QB!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
understandable
but I think if someone asks you to back up your claim it should not be too hard to do…..
You make some strong and often good points here, but when asked to defend your statement you shy away.
This is not an attack btw…just saying that we would love to see things from your point of view, and putting something together could help do that.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Fair enough.
I mentioned it above but you’re right I should have backed up my claim.
The reason I think Marshall is an elite WR is his ability to make something out of nothing. The defenders often have a hard time getting a hold of him, much less bringing him down. When he was on the Broncos I would cringe every time he would catch the ball. IMO the guy is definitely elite.
The reason Miami paid him so much is because he is just the type play maker they need in the passing game to compliment their vicious running game.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 4:19 PM MDT up reply actions
What makes me feel better about Marshall leaving...
…is that we got a pair of number 2s for him and then replaced him with a guy who has similar size, is good at getting the ball at his highest point, and can stretch the field in a way Marshall couldn’t.
That, and not having to shell out close to $50 million on a guy who’s one bitch-slap away from a year-long suspension, makes me very happy, and makes me feel very good about the move, indeed.
And I agree with you completely.
But the whole reason I brought up the Marshall thing is because this whole article is about how the Chargers will suck without Jackson and Big Mac when in all actuallity the Broncos will be in no better shape without Marshall either.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Have to disagree
Without their starting LT, and Jackson the chargers will struggle. The Broncos with Orton at QB will be a equal share offense now with Marshall gone.
IMO it’s just part of the way they ran things in N.E, they just want smart solid players with a good work ethic, they don’t want players who just think about themselves and not the team.
The primary difference
is that though both are impacted negatively with Jackson/Marshall not in the starting line up, Denver has had the departure of Marshall in front of them for a while in order to understand how to resolve that cap (the draft of D Thomas, etc.).
Gene,
With Rod Smith, Thomas is on my HIGH list now. I’ve totally changed on this guy. I Rod Smith is the bomb.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
I bet
that Rod enjoys working with Bay a heck of a lot more than working with the Big Baby.
It is of perhaps interest that our human genetic code is constructed by the exact same four nucleotides as every other form of life on the planet.
My Stroke Of Insight, by Jill Bolte Taylor, Ph.D.
No doubt
Rod gave up on Marshall, guy wouldn’t listen. When that happens, you know there’s gonna be problems.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 17, 2010 10:26 AM MDT up reply actions
The big difference
is that the Bolts aren’t receiving any compensation for the absence of their star players.
The Broncos received two 2nd round pics, and used them to upgrade their talent level. The Bolts have nothing to show for their 10 missing games per player.
by Bronco Nut on Jun 16, 2010 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great point Bronco Nut!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Well Said BN
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
But he didn't catch 130. :(
"The never-ending search for a truth never told."
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
Quitter's People United Member #18
by Tempestuous Binary on Jun 16, 2010 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
His argument was the football equivalent of “But this goes to 11!” It’s like arguing with a box of cornflakes.
hey...be nice...he's
Dolt Odd ED
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
IF that's the case
Then how many times was Lionel Taylor thrown to to make his 100 catches in the 1960’s? How about Charlie Hennigan with Houston?
Marshall is good, but not anywhere near the best.
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
by IgorBStrange on Jun 17, 2010 2:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Great Post!
I think the stats on this post show who was most valuable to their team. Yes catching the ball 100 times 3 seasons in a row is a spectacular but taking plays off is also just as important.
If Rod Smith and Eddie Mac continue to mentor our to young recievers they will blossum. Rod Smith was a huge factor in the progression of Brandon Marshall. I hope D Thomas and Rod smith hit it off! So great to see him at camp…Rod is the man :)
My job is to separate the player from the ball - John Lynch
by 2010oc on Jun 16, 2010 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
2010, yeah, boy!
I love your comment. When I hear the quote from Thomas about Smith, saying that he was already doing some things that Smith had showed him the previous day, I immediately thought….oh my, now we are on to something.
Yeah!
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Well have some patience
I’m sure at least 2 come from our secondary right now. Yes it nice to have a couple of guys that are playin, but they have lost a step and will have a hard time, dealing with this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZNCPOMuXhA
Oh and i do realize that they can tackle well, but you have to touch the guy to tackle him :P
This is the reason McCluster is going to play slot WR not RB. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2lbtwVEAes&feature=related
So tell me CPT
How many of those defenders were/are playing in the NFL.
When I see those videos, for some strange reason I see Steve Atwater hitting Christian Okoye. Although in this case it would be Brian Dawkins hitting McCluster on a quick pass resulting in a FUMBLE.
Make those miracles happen - Jon Keyworth
by IgorBStrange on Jun 17, 2010 3:05 AM MDT up reply actions
McCluster is stronger than most people think.
Dexter did 20 reps of 225, plus he’s not scared to block. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ew5OIwf_Its&feature=related
by CPT.Caveman on Jun 17, 2010 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
So this guy is such an amazing running back
that he makes Bailey and Dawkins look stupid. To such an extent that they don’t get into the Hall of Fame, thereby paving the way for at least 2 random people from the Chiefs secondary to get in? Or do you mean something else entirely by your post?
Huh
First off Dexter McCluster is not going to play very much at RB, in fact he is listed as a WR on our roster. I meant that at least 2 guys in our secondary we have right now, have a good chance at being HOFer’s. I wasn’t saying he was going to make them look stupid or that they wouldn’t make it to the HOF.
I meant that McCluster is tuff to tackle in the open field if you watched the video of him and some of the others of him you would see that he has talent.
Besides we already have 2 amazing RB’s without even bringing McCluster up.
Right
All he needs to do is take Decker under his wing as well and now we’re talkin’.
Unlike “me-first” Marshall, these guys will listen.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
what is your reasoning that Decker and Thomas
cannot contribute to our team like or better than Marshall?
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
There isn't a reasoning. Because they can.
Thomas can take those bubble screens just as easily as Marshall.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
I think he can get upfield a little better than Marshall too.
north-south was never BM’s strong suit…
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: You've come far pilgrim.
Jeremiah Johnson: Feels like far.
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: Were it worth the trouble?
Jeremiah Johnson: What trouble?
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 16, 2010 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions
I think you could be right. A LOT depends on how Thomas and Decker are doing.
If healthy, Thomas can replicated Marshall on the bubble screens, which we used a lot. Thomas is also already a much better blocker than Marshall, so this helps the running game as well.
It’s going to change in a bunch of ways. Royal is going to see a ton of slot. Last year, he plays slot very very little. You’re also going to see (in theory) a QB with a year in a system that reportedly takes 2-3 years to even grasp.
When Marshall sat out the last game of the season, it was against a putrid Chiefs defense, but Gaffney went off. I think you’ll see both he and Brandon Llyod take up some of the slack as well.
I personally think you are going to see Tebow more often in the shotgun as well and more Wild Horses formations.
Of course, I hope all of this goes a long way to terrorizing your now depleted team:-)
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
not to mention,
gaffney came up for us HUGE all season last year at varying times.
I think he was the receiver I cheered on the most!
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
He was awesome against the Eagles
He is a lot tougher receiver than I think he gets credit for…
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: You've come far pilgrim.
Jeremiah Johnson: Feels like far.
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: Were it worth the trouble?
Jeremiah Johnson: What trouble?
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 16, 2010 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions
You can't just replace Marshall,
just like we can’t replace Jackson. You’ll find out how much you guys need Marshall once the season starts. I’m talking about YAC (yards after catch).
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 11:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Marshall went backwards almost as many times as he went forwards.
SD I’m sorry but the west is ours this year. You will see how much you guys miss Cromartie and LT. Not to even mention McNeil and Jackson
My job is to separate the player from the ball - John Lynch
Barry Sanders did the same thing
And he’s in the Hall of Fame. No RB lost as many yards as Sanders did.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 16, 2010 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Barry Sanders also had a high yards per rush average.
…Even when figuring in the lost yards.
Marshall’s YPC was hardly elite.
Anybody have Marshall’s YAC average handy so we can put this to bed?
by Velveeta on Jun 16, 2010 2:01 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I guess my comment was more along the lines
Of running backwards isn’t always a bad thing. Plus Marshal probably had more screen passes thrown his way then most, which can hurt YAC especially if he is double covered. But I do agree the Marshalls YAC isn’t elite.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I don't know about that...
It didn’t hurt his career stats, but how does it affect the team? If you have a rb that gets 20 carries in a game and 18 are for 2 yards or less and 2 are 60 yard td runs his overall stats are very good. But if those 18 crappy runs put your team in 3rd and longs and were a factor in causing the majority of your drives to stall you’re not going to end up with too many more points than the 14 from those 2 runs. Just a thought, but I do know that Detroit had very little success during Sanders’ career.
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
Maybe partly true
Sanders was the best player on that team, and while I agree that his running antics cause trouble sometimes for Detroit, that team really didn’t help him.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I don't really remember the issues with Detroit in those days
I know they had suspect QB play with guys like scott mitchell, but they had some really good wrs…they had 2 100 catch guys in one season…was their defense just historically bad?
Have a good time all the time...that's my motto. - Viv Savage
It struggled
Plus there defense wasn’t anything to write home about.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
That sounds like
Gaston Green. Sure, those 60 TD gallops were sure exciting, but most of the time it was 2, 3, -3, 0, 2, 4… etc.
Still makes me angry that Detroit didn’t help Sanders at all. If he was on a decent team, he’d hold every record out there.
by AllBroncsallday on Jun 16, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions
YAC is a misleading stat.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 5:20 PM MDT up reply actions
5.01 according to one site, but when I did the math in the spread, it was 4.98
Here are the top-5 when I took ESPN’s numbers and divided the total YAC/Total Receptions:
PLAYER YAC AVG
Hakeem Nicks, WR 8.744680851
Miles Austin, WR 7.259259259
Greg Jennings, WR 6.838235294
DeSean Jackson, WR 6.548387097
Antonio Gates, TE 6.493670886
Santonio Holmes, WR 6.215189873
Percy Harvin, WR 5.966666667
Wes Welker, WR 5.764227642
Brent Celek, TE 5.539473684
Heath Miller, TE 5.526315789
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
What is it for players with 100+ catches though?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Can I ask why 100 is the cut-off? If you’re looking to document that it’s harder to do so with a greater catch volume, I’d look at YAC by quartile for receptions. Almost all of these guys will be top-quartile (or top decile) if you want to cut it that way. The presence of lots of high-yardage dudes on this list tells me it’s probably not that hard.
He's SPEAKING
IN TONGUES!!! GET THE EXORCIST!!!
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Here it is
Welker: 123 receptions YAC: 5.9
Smith: 107 receptions YAC: 2.2
Marshall: 101 receptions YAC: 5.2
Johnson: 101 receptions YAC: 5.3
Wayne: 100 receptions YAC: 4.3
Clark: 100 receptions YAC: 4.6
According to Yahoo! Sports
The reason I wanted 100 catches to be the cut off was because I wanted to see if it is harder to maintain a high YAC with a greater number of receptions, and looking at this, it would appear so. The more balls you catch, the harder it is to keep a high YAC. Marshall is above some top receivers like Wayne, Clark and NYG Steve Smith, so out of players who catch a lot of balls, he’s doing pretty average in YAC. Even Andre Johnson is about the same as him.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
This finding makes sense — outlier values are easier to come by at smaller sample sizes.
My comment about the 100-catch cut-off was really about sample size. There are 6 guys on this list. Marshall is third in YAC (and second to last in YPC). You’ve got a slot guy, a short guy, a tight end and 3 deep guys. I would expect the deep guys to have less YAC. If we expanded the analysis to 80 or 90 receptions, we could start to break the data up by receiver role. And I’d bet that the story would look different.
Here it is with 80+
TE:
Clark 100 receptions YAC: 4.6
Witten 94 YAC: 4.3
Gonzalez 83 YAC: 2.7
WR:
Welker: 123 receptions YAC: 5.9
Smith: 107 YAC: 2.2
Marshall: 101 YAC: 5.2
Johnson: 101 YAC: 5.3
Wayne: 100 YAC: 4.3
Fitzgerald: 97 YAC: 3.0
Ward: 95 YAC: 4.1
White: 85 YAC: 4.4
Boldin: 84 YAC: 4.5
Rice: 83 YAC: 4.0
Moss: 83 YAC: 3.8
Austin: 81 YAC: 6.9
Average: 4.3 YAC, so really Marshall is quite a bit above the average for high reception receivers. With only Austin, Welker, and Johnson having a higher YAC. It should also be noted the Smith mentioned here is from the NYG not Carolina.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
This is a nice find. I would expect slot guys (hello, Welker) to come out on top of this list, not so much because the number of throws, but because the nature of the routes. I still think this reflects Marshall’s role in the offense more than his innate talent/skills. But it does put the number in context pretty nicely.
no, demon, I just basically pulled em all, didn't look at total numbers of receps
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
I agree
Sanders was a unique back, who is unlike any other one in history, or any to come in the future, but even with his faults, he was still a great player. I’m bigger then he was at 5’11" and I sure wouldn’t want to be hit by those guys.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 16, 2010 11:39 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't agree about LT at all.
He averaged 3.3 YPC and couldn’t break 800 yards. Need I say more?
Cro is another story. That CB spot is a big question mark if you ask me. Much like the SS position will be as well. I have no idea what kind of production we will get out of either position.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 5:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Tomlinson, McNeil and Jackson yes
But Cromartie no – sophomore jinx hit him like a ton of bricks – they won’t miss that dude.
Tomlinson’s a loss, for all that he’s not what he was with Neal blocking for him. The Fresno State kid may be all that, but everyone here in SD is just assuming he’ll be LT, Jr. and I think those shoes aren’t as easy to fill as they’d like to think.
A Bronco fan in San Diego - where history begins in 2004.
by BroncFanInChargerLand on Jun 18, 2010 1:45 AM MDT up reply actions
Oh nooooooooooooo................
Marshall is gone, we may as well just pack it in! Gonna have to call all the teams on our schedule and let them no that we cannot play without Marshall. I guess when Jackson retires you guys will have to do the same, since he is irreplaceable and all. Come on man, nobody is irreplaceable. If that were the case then every time a pro bowl receiver retired his team would have to just shut the doors.
"Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.''
-- John Wooden
"I've always joked about Joe Montana not appreciating his Super Bowls nearly as much as I do because he never lost one. We lost three before we got one."
--John Elway
by Broncanatic on Jun 16, 2010 11:38 AM MDT up reply actions
It's funny that Bronco fans all of the sudden think
they are SB contenders because two of the Chargers starters are holding out but they won’t even accknowknowledge the fact that they will be without their #1 WR and star LT for X amount of games.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:36 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't see that
stated anywhere in ANY of these posts….of course I may have missed one or two.
Just because you are getting overwhelmed and upset does not mean you have to embelish. We are NOT without our #1 receiver because whoever he is, he is AT the OTA’s and TC, not holding out.
our star LT has backups to help pickup the slack, and they are decent. and when he gets back, heaven help our opponents.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
I haven't gotten upset once today.
Nice try though. Actually me and my co-worhers here have been laughing and making fun of some of yours and McGeorge’s comments so, please, keep them coming. It’s been quite entertaining.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions
*co-workers
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions
What does a Charger fan know about being a Superbowl Contender???
Harking back to the Stan Humphries days I guess
Paper Champions
know nothing of being Super Bowl contenders.
How about that Nate Kaeding, eh?
by SoCalBronco1998 on Jun 16, 2010 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Kaeding's actually the most accurate kicker
in NFL history. Literally, he is. Just sayin’.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 5:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Just not in the playoffs. Right?
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 5:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 5:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly.
Hence why I included him in my paper champions comment. Just like the rest of the team, he chokes under the pressure.
by SoCalBronco1998 on Jun 16, 2010 7:24 PM MDT up reply actions
Can't argue with that.
He was terrible in the Jets game.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Just not in playoff games
Just sayin’
A Bronco fan in San Diego - where history begins in 2004.
by BroncFanInChargerLand on Jun 18, 2010 1:47 AM MDT up reply actions
I think you got it right the first time
but the “h” needed to be moved to the left….
Sorry, couldn’t resist…
LOL
I see what you did there!
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
thats fine,
I’m just saying that what you said above is false entirely. No one said the Broncos are going to the SB BECAUSE of VJ and Co.
It WAS stated we have a better chance against you…but that is a fact….regardless of any other factors…
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
I have not read tat once...the post is about how you guys now are weaker...on paper.....just like I dont believe you guys are super bowl champs on paper...nor do i think you suck either.
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
We are Super Bowl contenders regardless of any self-destructive actions by the Chargers.
We cannot be without our #1 WR because he hasn’t been selected yet. All-Pro LT? yeah, he’s a bit in doubt.
Socal, sorry to burst this myth, but Marshall
YAC average last year was only 5.01
There were a mountain of WRs with both higher and lower average YACs. To make it seem like the guy is Jim Brown is simply wrong.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
How many catches did Stokley have compared to Marshall though?
Of course he’s going to more less YAC than Marshall.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions
*have more YAC
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions
We need to take into account though
That the more balls you catch, the harder it is to keep a high YAC. While I agree Marshall’s isn’t real high, but it’s hard to maintain a high average when you catch 100+ balls versus 20-30 balls a season.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
This may require a deeper look
I have heard that RAC accounts for over half of the receiving yardage in the NFL, in which case it would seem that the more catches you have, the higher RAC goes. i think. O_o
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: You've come far pilgrim.
Jeremiah Johnson: Feels like far.
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: Were it worth the trouble?
Jeremiah Johnson: What trouble?
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 16, 2010 2:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Guess I might have to take a look at that
I feel a post coming on
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
That is misleading because of the fact he was targeted so many times.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions
To clarify
when I said YAC, I wasn’t talking about the actual stat, but the plays where he turned nothing into something. He had a lot of spectacualar runs after catch last season. That kind of stuff can’t be taught and it’s rare in the NFL. It’s pretty much what makes him an elite WR IMO.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions
so did a lot of recievers, its the NFL
there will always be big plays
by SoCalBronco1998 on Jun 16, 2010 4:22 PM MDT up reply actions
That's not fair to Marshall.
Give credit where it’s due man.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm not taking anything away from him
I’m saying that big plays are always made, how is that not fair to marshall?
by SoCalBronco1998 on Jun 16, 2010 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions
Marshall has big play capability that a lot of other receivers don't have.
You don’t seem to give him credit for that.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions
Then why do his receptions go for short yardage. He was 39th in the AFC in yards per catch. 39th. What does big-play capability mean if it isn’t manifest in lots of yards?
Marshalls YPC and YAC are misleading because he was targeted so much last season.
The guys a stud thats why Miami is paying him so much money.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
That’s a totally tautological argument. The fact of paying a player a lot of money, doesn’t make him good. You could mock any team that ever made a trade that way — because of course some other team wanted the player.
I take it you don’t watch the Broncos much. Marshall runs short routes. That’s why his YPC is low. He also can’t catch the ball over his shoulder. He has to be facing the quarterback. That limits his ability to move after the catch. Which by the way, what’s misleading about his YAC stats? The’re higher than other oft-targeted receivers (except for slot guys) because he runs shorter routes. They’re lower then Wes Welker’s, for example, because he’s much worse after the catch than Welker.
The guy looks great on Sports Center. But 4 out of 10 balls thrown to him end up on the ground, and he’s typically decked 7 yards past the line of scrimmage when he holds on to the ball. And that’s just his on-field short-comings. If I were you, I would have been praying that the Broncos made that guy the top-paid receiver in the league.
If I were you, I would have been praying that the Broncos made that guy the top-paid receiver in the league.
Nope I’m not that dumb.
The guy is a beast. And we can sit here and argue until we’re blue in the face but my stance on Marshall will not change because I honestly believe he’s a special receiver. At least top 5. I know exactly what you’re talking about when you say Marshall ran short routes and I do watch a lot of Bronco games actually because they are usually televised here in SD. I think that had a lot to do with McD’s system being designed around Orton’s capabilities though, and not neccessarilly Marshalls route running capabilities.
His YAC stat is misleading because he was targeted so often like I said. He had a lot of receptions last season. And of course more receptions would lower his YAC. I don’t undertsand how you can’t see that.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
And we can sit here and argue until we’re blue in the face
As long as it’s Bronco blue and there is some orange to go along with it. :)
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 17, 2010 12:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Nope, powder blue. :)
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Them's fightin' werds....
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 17, 2010 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Weren’t Calvin Johnson and Andre Johnson and Larry Fitzgerald and Randy Moss and Marques Colston all targeted a lot, too? If lots of targets hurt Marshall’s Yards per reception, they hurt these guys, too. And they all performed better than Marshall!
Those players come from a entirely different system.
The reason they out performed Marshall might be because they all have a QB that can throw the ball deep. How many deep passes did Orton attemp last season? Not many. McDs system is designed for short dink and dunk passes. It would be interesting to finally see Marshall on a team with a legit QB.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Marshall played in 2007 and 2008 with a QB who loved to chuck the ball down the field. And he was still in the 30s in the AFC in YPC. The 30s. Seriously, try again. The guy isn’t a deep threat because he’s a possession receiver, not because of the scheme.
So for the record
you think Cutler is a legit QB?
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 3:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Legit is a relative term, SoCal
Haha. Vs. Ryan Leaf, certainly.
vs. Top 1/4 of NFL QBs, no way
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Ryan who?
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 5:09 PM MDT up reply actions
TJ is right.
I’ll rephrase the question.
For the record, do you think Cutler is better than average at completing the deep pass?
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 5:11 PM MDT up reply actions
You have got to be specific
Do you mean completions to his team or the opponent???
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
My point is
Jay Cutler is NOT better than average at going deep. In fact if you look at Jay Cutler’s career stats, you’ll see he has never thrown more than 7 40+ yard plays in a season. Compared to guys like Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and Philip Rivers, I’d say that he’s pretty average actually. It’s hard not to wonder what Marshalls numbers would look like if he had one of the above mentioned QBs throwing to him on a regular basis.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 21, 2010 11:31 AM MDT up reply actions
umm...no its not
He still needs to face the QB to make the catch. He still needs to catch the ball more often than he does. He still needs to get over himself (which he won’t).
So I don’t care who is throwing him the ball, his YAC is not going to be huge because he has to make a spectacular play to get extra yards, and can’t pull that off every game.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Put simply, Brandon Marshall is the Zoolander of the NFL...hes not an ambi catcher...can only turn one way and that back to face the QB!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
Yes we can replace Marshall and we did...dont you worry about our team....go worry about your PAPER CHAMPIONS!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
SoCal
We will have 2 WR;s that catch 70+ balls each for a quarter of Marshall’s monetary cost and Zero attitude.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
by KaptainKirk on Jun 16, 2010 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions
I hope it doesn't....and you better hope Ryan Matthews is all hes cracked up to be cause you guys could be in for a world of hurt!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Intriguing comment, Chibronx
Marshall is clearly a top-2 receiver in the NFL.
I’d be interested in hearing your criteria for a “top-2 receiver.”
In the 3 years you reference, 2007-09, Marshall has only been 1st or 2nd in 1 category: Targets.
ESPN keeps 10 statistical categories for WRs: Targets, Receptions, Yards, Average, Touchdowns, Longest, 20+, Yards/Game, Yards After Catch and First Downs. In those 10 categories, Marshall has been:
Top 5
Targets (09, 08, 07)
Receptions (09, 08, 07)
Yards After Catch (07)
First Downs (08, 07)
Top 10
Targets (09, 08, 07)
Receptions (09, 08, 07)
Yards (08, 07)
Touchdowns (09)
Yards/Game (08, 07)
Yards After Catch (09, 07)
First Downs (08, 07)
I’m having a hard time seeing him as consistently top-10, let alone top-2.
Just curious
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jun 16, 2010 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Thos are good points, I guess. Would my point be clearer if I declared Marshall the best player in the history of human endeavor, and called the Coach McWreckerOfTehAwesomeDenverzTantrumFace?
We are on the same side here. I think he’s about the 20th best receiver in the NFL.
yesyesyes
Coach McWreckerOfTehAwesomeDenverzTantrumFace
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: You've come far pilgrim.
Jeremiah Johnson: Feels like far.
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: Were it worth the trouble?
Jeremiah Johnson: What trouble?
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 16, 2010 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
rofl agreed!!!
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Chibronx
Perhaps a bit of civility?
I asked a legitimate question. I really am curious as to the criteria you’re using in your evaluation of Marshall.
And nowhere in my response did I even refer to McDaniels, so what is that all about?
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jun 16, 2010 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions
He's kidding, BShrout
Get your sarcasm meter checked.
My bad and my apologies Chibronx
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jun 16, 2010 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
No, the bad is on me. I tought my schtick was pretty well known around here. Sarcasm doesn’t always work so well in print.
gotta love the internets
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
There's more than one?
Am I on the right one? ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jun 16, 2010 3:16 PM MDT up reply actions
As long as the one you are on has MHR, then I think you're good.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Nah, it's all on me
I was reading too quickly and missed the point.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jun 16, 2010 1:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I knew you were being sarcastic my friend!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
Nice stats, but
all stats aside, its not clear why you say the best case scenario is Jackson won’t be available until week 11. SD can still offer him a new deal.
True, and for this reason, the words were "As of today, it appears the best case scenario....."
Otherwise, one would have said, “Today, the best case scenario is…”
AJ doesn’t “appear” to be heading in that direction, however.
Thanks, for the read, op8r
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
This Chargers fan thinks Jackson is gone (and maybe done in football)
But McNeill will have a new contract before the season starts.
Oh, and WRs aren’t all that important. LTs matter, but WRs are replaceable. Jackson is pretty darn good, but the P.R. Machine (and his assortment of other weapons) makes VJ look a lot better than he really is.
What is best in life? To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of the cheerleaders!
by Neoplatonist Bolthead on Jun 17, 2010 6:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Jackson is definitely not done in football.
He’s in his prime right now and if the Chargers don’t sign him long term, another team will, with the quickness.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 18, 2010 9:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Done in football?
What are you basing that on? The DUIs?
WRs matter, perhaps not as much as a LT, to be sure, but I wouldn’t discount their value to the extent of calling the replaceable. Their average contract values league wide are on par with CBs and are greater than RBs, Safeties,
I like Malcom Floyd, for sure. I think he’ll pick up some slack.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Yea Buffalo is saying the same thing
Doesn’t mean they will be any better without T.O.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 16, 2010 12:57 PM MDT up reply actions
Dallas seemed to be.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
But they actually had a good team before and after T.O.
Plus they replaced his production with other players.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 17, 2010 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions
Sounds similar to our Broncos
More so than your Buffalo example does.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
And I agree
Lets hope Decker or Thomas can pull out a season like Austin did last season, and Orton can put up Romo’s numbers.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 17, 2010 11:21 PM MDT up reply actions
But again, this article isn’t about how over-rated Brandon Marshall was (yes, it is), it’s about Vincent Jackson
You owe me a keyboard and monitor for that one. Hilarious.
I always love the stuff you write. And I am surprised not to see Larry Fitzgerald and Andre Johnson in either of those lists. Are they just targeted so much that it drives down the average or do they actually belong lower on the lists?
User name pronounced Air-Ah-Miss Originally from my days in the SCA, became a gamer and forum tag because it is odd and it is a name I like
Arimaris, there is a little bit to this with respect to numbers of targets...
Great question. With respect to Johnson, his catch % per targer is only 59%. In other words, he catches only 59% of the balls thrown to him. A guy like Wes Welker catches about 76% of the passes. Of course, the types of throws matter, so we don’t want to take all of this as gospel. But this is why a stat like Yards-Per-Target is a great stat. It takes into account all throws, not just the ones the guy caught.
Same with Fitz. He was targeted 153 times and catches about 63% of the passes.
When taken together, YPT, Success Rate, and EPA/Play give us a more complete picture within the context of individual systems, to be sure.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Getting tired of it
This year it’s the Charger. The past two years it was us. Reworking contracts, asking/demanding for trades displaying poor work habits and attitude is the signs of the times. I am starting to hate pro sports and athletes more and more. Why can’t they just honor their contarcts, shut up and play ball. I wish athletes would quit acting like spoiled brats and show respect to the game and us fans!
Well, the owners effectively changed the terms of those contracts by cancelling the CBA. If your boss did that to you, I would totally have your back. Why is it OK for the owners to change the rules, but not the players?
because....by definition
its ok. they are the OWNERS!!!
If I own a boat and say you can ride on it for free…and one day I say you can’t ride on it unless you help pay for gas money…there is nothing wrong with that. You may feel you deserve to ride on the boat for whatever outstanding reasons may have happened (time spent helping around the boat, helping to navigate, bringing people or other entertainment) but the fact remains that as an OWNER you have sole rights to change almost anything at almost anytime.
And the CBA was not ripped out from under anyone, it was simply not renewed. Hell my insurance company just pulled that one on me, and I’ve paid my premiums timely for almost a decade. It was their decision, and THEY are the owners.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
by DenBronx on Jun 16, 2010 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, the owners legally have the right to do that. But the players are just supposed to sit back and take it? If my parents lived their lives that way, I would have been born on a dirt floor and wouldn’t have made it to age 10 with more than half of my teeth. Fighting for better things is kind of, I dunno, part of being human? Why we should expect players not to do it is a mystery to me.
Yeah but you're paying me to ride your boat because I'm making you money. If you then tell me I have to pay for gas
I’ll just go make money for another boat owner that will pay me more to advertise for him or demand that you pay me more if I have to pay it back to you when I’m helping you make money and sell tickets to your show. I agree with being a team player but in a business where each play can be your last you have to make sure you are taken care of. If one team won’t do it then find one that will. It is a business regardless of what we fans think it should be (players playing so that we will love them and so that they can create a legacy but forget being financially stable when they can’t get insurance after years of physical abuse).
I think contracts should be looked at if a player outperforms where he was drafted. If an owner wants to avoid this and a player too they should sign more performance and incentive laden contracts rather than doing all this up front guaranteed money when a player first comes into the league. The owners have brought this mess on themselves by signing unproven rookies to millions of dollars who haven’t proven a thing. That’s the main reason players do this. Do you think Doom wants to get paid less than Robert Ayers? Come on.
by BroncoMath101 on Jun 16, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Rec'd BMath. Couldn't have said it any better.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Sailboats, that's the way to go
Then there’s no gas involved. ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Jun 16, 2010 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Rookie contracts
are what I have a major issue with. How can you afford to keep quality veterans if the rookies are breaking the bank? If nothing else, rookie contracts need to be cut in a major way – let them earn their pay.
Ex: Ayers is making more than Dumervil, Moreno is making more than Buckhalter, Tebow is about to make more than Orton, ugh this is just painful.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
Seriously man.
Something needs to be done about rookie contracts. It’s a shame to see these unproven guys signing these 40-60 million dollar contracts while you have proven vets making a fraction of that.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions
No argument there
I think that you’ve hit on something that we all can agree on. The rookie salary issue needs a structure and a resolution that doesn’t involve over-paying for players who are as likely to tank as to terrify. Good point.
Gnothi Seauton
we're on a boat?
I’m on on a MF boat, b****!
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
by HarvJNep2n on Jun 16, 2010 12:51 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
How did the owners change the contract? What changes were made?
by NWBroncofan on Jun 16, 2010 11:03 AM MDT up reply actions
They cancelled the CBA. The players in fights over tenders now were about to get huge paydays on the open market. Instead, They’ve been handed the choice of signing below market value or not playing. Call me crazy, but if I were a player, I wouldn’t be happy about this situation. Instead of sitting and taking it on the chin, I might even…. try to get mine. Just like the owners. The owners look out for their self-interest. And so should the players.
Incorrect - Chibronx!
The CBA is not cancelled. The full CBA remains in effect. NFL management decided to use an option in the CBA to shorten the duration of the CBA. That option was part of the latest CBA when it was approved by the owners and the players. The CBA rules were not changed!
These are semantics, cohiker. Yes, the CBA is still in effect this year. But the owners shortened it and started to threaten a lockout. Sure, the players agreed to a CBA that the owners had the ability to opt out of. That doesn’t mean we should expect them to sit back passively after the owners take action. What kind of bargaining approach would that be?
Actually the players are more likely
To lockout then the owners.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 16, 2010 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Can players get locked in???
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
you mean like in a church or YMCA?
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
As long as it isn't in a bathroom with Big Ben....
Is that joke too soon?
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions
ROFL!!!!
not at all KB, not at all
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
haha, oh good.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Tell that to the 1994 MLB
Or the 1998 NBA, or the NHL 1994, or the NFL in 1982, 1984 and 1987. Strikes happen, it might not be for the whole season, but they do happen, and with how many players are being vocal this off-season, it’s hard not to see even a short strike next season.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
RIGHT
and tell that to keanu reeves……
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
A great example of a few game strike
A good movie too.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I thought so...
but I keep getting reamed for that belief haha
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
It is about honoring rules and contracts - not semantics
The owners are acting fully within the terms of the CBA and the owners are honoring contracts. Several players are not doing that. Several are not honoring the contracts they signed because they do not like the results of the CBA they approved and the contracts they signed. Imagine what would happen if the owners just stopped honoring agreements or contracts they signed!
Show me where the owners “started to threaten a lockout”. I think that is comimg from the media and the union. Yes, if there is no agreement before the 2011 season, there likely will be a lockout – but the owners want an agreement – not a lockout. That is by far the preferred result for the owners. If no agreement is reached, the owners have two options: 1. continue the season with no CBA and no rules, except government antitrust and labor rules; meaning there will be lots of lawsuits from the players (not an attractive option for the owners) and 2. lockout the players until there is an agreement. Everybody is hurt in a lockout – and that puts on pressure to reach a mutual agreement.
NWBroncos
You bring up a very interesting point, and in my first draft, I had an entire section devoted to this, but I removed it because it was more of a stats piece anyway.
What I had in there was a section on what makes people happy, along with the research citations that show that “Quantitative Income” doesn’t make people happy, it’s “Relative Income.”
In other words, it doesn’t matter if I make $50,000 per year or $5,000,000. That doesn’t make me happy as a person. What makes me happy is if that $50,000 or $5,000,000 is on par with my peers. Interesting, eh? In short, if I think I’m not making as much as people in my so-called “group of peers,” then I am unhappy.
Thus, you have, at least, theoretically, a reason why you see this every year. If we take this research at face value, then every year, as the dynamics of players change, you are going to have contracts that continue to increase and change. And then (again, if we accept this as human nature) the perception of players of individual players is going to change too. Thus, each year you are going to have a certain number of players who say to themselves, “hey, I’m as good or better than that guy, why am I not making what he is making…or more.”
It’s a bit hedonistic if you think about it, but if relative income really is what makes a person happy, then this would scream for a CBA that limits salaries accordingly. Wait, did I just describe wage controls? Not sure I agree with this either, but the whole point is that we perceive ourselves “relative” to others, not in a vacuum.
Not saying this excuses the behavior in the least. But for me, it at least allowed me to understand it. Even then, you have “character” guys who show up on account of principle.
Interesting topic.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
The old saying "Money can't buy happiness" is a crock
I’ve never seen anyone frown while riding a jet ski!
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
I have....
of course the jet ski was being approached by a police boat….
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Lol Broncs. This is true.
But if your neighbor has the jet ski, it’s pretty tough on your mental state, I’m thinking.
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Well...money makes misery a lot more comfortable!
Those that cant coach, compete!
Failing to plan is planning to fail.
All I want is 53 Rod Smiths. Is that asking too much????
"Peyton Hillis didn’t rip the sleeves off his jersey, they flew off out of fear."
Calijoefornia.
J. P. Morgan :
“Money, young man, is good for the nerves.”
It is of perhaps interest that our human genetic code is constructed by the exact same four nucleotides as every other form of life on the planet.
My Stroke Of Insight, by Jill Bolte Taylor, Ph.D.
Nope, they’re smiling all the way into the pier!
"It's okay to eat fish, 'cause they don't have any feelings" - Kurt Kobain
by JChase8410 on Jun 17, 2010 10:02 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Simple points, but good. People are motivated by a ense of fairness. If you’re in a booming industry, and your bosses say they’re entitled to every bit of the growth of the pie, you’ll think it’s unfair. And you’ll be right. The whole thing where people respond to their frustrations at work by wanting other people’s jobs to be less rewarding, rather than by trying to make their own jobs better, is weird to me.
Indeed
The whole thing where people respond to their frustrations at work by wanting other people’s jobs to be less rewarding, rather than by trying to make their own jobs better, is weird to me.
It is also distracting as hell.
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: You've come far pilgrim.
Jeremiah Johnson: Feels like far.
Bear Claw Chris Lapp: Were it worth the trouble?
Jeremiah Johnson: What trouble?
by Jeremy Bolander on Jun 16, 2010 12:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Damn slackers!
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
If I was a public figure
I’d say we’re turning into a bunch of whiners. But since I’m not, I won’t say it. (=
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
True Chibronx.. studies even show chimps doing exactly this behavior.
It seems to be hardwired. Simple points, but often forgotten when thinking like a businessman.
thats a good point TJ
Realistically I think though it just shows we are all insecure. But yeah it does show the mentality of player thuogh and makes it a little more normal – except albert haynesworth.
as the above converstaion about boatrides, gas and all that showed the CBA is probably too complicated.
CBA point 1. Agree on number of games. Players are paid for those games.
CBA point 2. Agree on number of practises. Players play all those practises.
CBA point 3. Have a salary cap. Keep it in line with inflation if you have to.
CBA point 4. Make it a set term (no option to shorten it, only an option to lengthen it).
CBA point 5. Have good medical compensation for a player from year dot.
Done.
See I could write their CBA in 5 lines!
"The advantage law is the best law in rugby, because it lets you ignore all the others for the good of the game." - Derek Robinson
"You've got to get your first tackle in early, even if it's late." - Ray Gravell
Additional hot button issues...
But how much is the salary cap? The owners want it reduced from its current rate. Do the players now bear a portion of the burden to build new stadiums? The owners want the players to subtract from overall teams’ revenue to reflect the cost of new stadiums built. Rookie salary cap? And now with all of the chaos that’s developed over restricted players, I’m guessing the players will want something changed there also.
It's Alex, just Alex. But you can call me Alex=)
The problem with the whole new stadium building thing is that
most owners don’t pony up much dough for these anymore. They are more often than not, investments by the city, which means investments of the taxpayers. There have been recent articles about certain owners putting a lot of their own money into the stadium, but those are few.
It takes neither courage nor intelligence to cheer for a team only when that team wins. The true test of a fan's mettle is the same as it is for a player: Were you there when you were needed?
aka Solace
This post isn't about either Jackson or Marshall
It’s about Demaryius Thomas!! Let’s hope.
Haha, nice, DB. I should have added this line? Mind if I steal it?
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
100 catches really is a lot
no matter how we slice it. Brandon Marshall caught a lot of balls for us. He also dropped a lot of balls, punted a lot of balls, and slipped on McDonalds bags, ran a lot on a treadmill, and had to be pushed back on the field upon pain of suspension twice. Yes, He truly did a lot here.
Floating on Ships is what the Navy did to pass the time while waiting for Naval Aviation to be born!
Hey, Navy. Thanks for reading. With all of the other comments, I didn't get to this one.
Sorry. I agree. He was one active cat last year:-!
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
Yeah Brandon is Overrated
But V. Jackson is far from being talked about as the best wide reciever in the league, that belongs to Andre Johnson, just looking at the stats you posted you could say that Jason Avant is a top 5 wide reciever in the league. But I think the Jackson and McNeil will be huge to the Chargers success. McNeil has been a above average left tackle and in an offense that relies on good pass protection he is a major key to this o-line. With Jackson holding out, who takes over? The chargers love running 3 and 4 wide sets, the other recievers are Malcom Floyd who is real similar to Jackson and Legadu Nanee, who is a slot and underneath kind of reciever. They won’t have anyone else to stretch the field and that will limit this offense in a huge way.
by Warren Todd on Jun 16, 2010 10:33 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
These are all good points. When I wrote about how over-rated Marshall was a year ago, I used lots of painful verbal constructions in order to avoid attributin his success or failures solely to him. In terms of raw talent I don’t think Jason Avant is a top-5 receiver. But the Eagles’ passing game, when it goes his way, produces top-5 results. Why? Well, someone stretches the field. Someone else blocks well. The plays are designed and called correctly. The quarterback makes the right read. And Avant makes a good play.
The big point I take away from this is: No way on earth we should pay top $$ for a WR. Look at all the other stuff that has to work out right for the dude to be effective!
Perfect haha
You’re exactly right football is the ultimate TEAM sport. Having guys who refuse to contribute to the TEAM brings down the rest of the players. Brandon Marshall the past few years has constantly put himself in a postion to do good, but refused to do the things that lead to team success, eg consistant blocking, percise route running, drawing coverage, etc etc. Hopefully McD has a good judge of who can overcome the natural selfishness every single person has and who will put that towards the collective goal of winning a superbowl
by Warren Todd on Jun 16, 2010 10:51 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Also
Who cares if they’ll be back just in time to play us? It’ll be really hard to regain the kind of trust, timing, and chemistry back in one week. After basically not practicing for 5 months you can’t expect them to come back and be part of the team in one week or even one month and possibly longer. Especially in a offense that relies on Rivers chunking it up and hoping Jackson can chase it down. Also being out of the game that long McNeil will have a hard time being successful with his kickbacks and deep protection slides that rely on timing, agile skill and footwork so much. Especially going against a guy like Doom :o)
by Warren Todd on Jun 16, 2010 10:41 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Meh
Especially in a offense that relies on Rivers chunking it up and hoping Jackson can chase it down.
So much speculation in the offseason, it’s funny. We don’t know that The Chargers will “rely” on the passing game in 2010. WE HAVE A NEW RB NOW!!! We have to run the ball well in the Playoffs or we will be eliminated. So of course Norv will try and establish a ground attack (something we couldn’t do last year with LT) in the regular season as well. You’re guess is as good as mine on what kind of running game the Chargers will have this season. But MY GUESS is, you’ll see a lot more run plays called than you think.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Their best player is a quarterback who's best asset his his deep throw ability
Last year their O Line was terrible at run blocking, yes, LT was old, he didn’t have the jump cut that made him so good in the first place, but everything the offense did showed a weakness on the offensive line’s run blocking. With Darren Sproles, it was all about getting him in space and one on one situations instead of following blocks and reading blocking schemes. The SD offensive line couldn’t win one on one matchups with defensive players. Pitches, quick screens, flat routes and far outside runs with crackbacks from the recievers were the only things that got any production from the running backs. Those are all the things that by definition are done to make up for bad run blocking. Ryan Matthews will have to succeed at those things to be relavent at all.
by Warren Todd on Jun 16, 2010 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions
Hmmm....
I wonder if the fact that we were missing our starting C (who happens to be the heart of the O-line) and our starting RT for most of the year had anything to do with our run-blocking woes?
Also,
Their best player is a quarterback who’s best asset his his deep throw ability
That’s VERY, VERY, debatable.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions
Whats debateable about that?
Thats a good point, I forgot about Hardwick, he will help that O-Line, along with your guard that came along good last year, but thats 2 parts of the O-Line. Missing your stud LT will be a hit, and I dont think your RT is a quality guy, but youre sure right about Hardwick
by Warren Todd on Jun 16, 2010 11:40 AM MDT up reply actions
Well the fact that we have a future HOF TE
makes it debateable. I’m not saying that Rivers isn’t the “best player” but it is debateable.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
n this year ull be missing your LT
Tebow + Moreno = #1 rushing attack
by Pmoreno95 on Jun 16, 2010 12:18 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I can buy it on Hardwick
And said so at the time, but your starting right tackle, Clary, has had problems with his performance for years. If Rivers isn’t your best player, who is?
Gnothi Seauton
Clary may have had his problems in the past but
he was playing very well before he was injured last year. Also he is a lot better than Dombrowski at this point in his career. Dombro showed major potential toward the end of the season though.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 4:29 PM MDT up reply actions
How about some stats on their performance
How did Clary assist in the running game (how many plays ran their way and what was the YPC.) Also, how did he do in pass protection (how many sacks did he allow.)
You’re offering lots of Kool-Aid opinions about the annually annointed SB Champs, yet I don’t see any numbers that back up your positions.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
Like you said
IT’S MY OPINION. If you want to refute my opinion feel free to look up the stats yourself and prove me wrong. But from my memory Clary was playing very well and wasn’t allowing a lot of sacks.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Inflated Expectations
This is my favorite:
WE HAVE A NEW RB NOW!!! We have to run the ball well in the Playoffs or we will be eliminated.
How has your run-game been the past few seasons? Wouldn’t you say that having a solid run-blocking O-line is essential? How about the blocking provided by a solid FB, such as oh…I don’t know…how about Lorenzo Neil? What happens when you remove a contributor like that from the offense? Also, what happens when you do not have a great 2nd RB like Mike Turner to split carries with?
If you can answer these questions honestly, then you may begin to realize that these aspects of your offense have not been replaced and are still missing. How in the world can you honestly believe that a newly drafted ROOKIE RB will somehow magically compensate for the above mentioned lost capabilities?
One last thing: don’t you have to actually make it to the playoffs this year before you can demonstrate that you can run the ball? (=
Just wondering.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
LoNeal?! LONEAL?!?!
Seriously LONEAL?! You’ve got to be kidding me! How about we bring back Junior Seau and every other washed up, over the hill, has been that used to play for us while we’re at it? LoNeal?!?! C’mon man.
Shoot by that logic maybe you guys should bring back, I don’t know, say, John Elway to solve your QB woes. Pssshhhh, LoNeal. Get outta here.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions
Read that again
He did not insinuate that you should bring him back…he was saying you got rid of him and have yet to fill the void.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
Even if we hadn't let him go
the void wouldn’t be filled.LoNeal isn’t the lead blocker he was when he was bulldozing holes for LT. As far as I’m concerned we let him go at precisely the right time. Besides, I like Tolbert. He brings another dimention to the FB position. He may not be the lead blocker that LoNeal was but he has soft hands and can make big plays catching the ball out of the backfield.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions
That is all besides the point
Horsepower was stating that you have changed things about your game that takes away from your running game and from the outside looking in, we don’t see what the sparklers have done to address the issue.
Having a FB with soft hands and catching the ball out of the backfield relates exactly zero with the discussion at hand.
You have a great new rookie RB! Woo hoo! So how is that going to work out for you?
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
I don't see how it's besides the point.
I admitted that we don’t have a dominant lead blocking FB anymore. Yes it effects our running game. My point was we now have a FB who brings something entirely different to the table and adds a new demention to the passing game. Tolberts WAY more dangerous than LoNeal as a check down receiver.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 3:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Also
You have a great new rookie RB! Woo hoo! So how is that going to work out for you?
We’ll see. But do you have to comment at me in such a douchey manner? Tone it down a little bit man. I have no idea how that will work out I’m not a frickin psychic.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 17, 2010 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions
plus I doubt A.J. or Norv will allow them back into the starting spot. If they did it would ruin the point they are trying to make.
by BroncoMath101 on Jun 16, 2010 11:46 AM MDT up reply actions
You want to field the best team possible
especially in the Playoffs. That would mean playing jackson and McNeill. Any team (including the Chargers) who is looking to possibly sign them to a long term deal will take their 2010 regular season and post season performance into account. Jackson and McNeill know this, AJ knows this, so please believe, as soon as they sign they’re getting on the field and they will play their butts off.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice stats revealed regarding Jackson
It really makes it appear the Dolts are going to miss him in a big way. If Antonio Gates isn’t 100% by the time the regular season opens, they’ll be in a world of trouble and Rivers will be eating Southern California turf on a regular basis.
It’s a bit head-scratching the tough stance Jackson is taking regarding sitting out the season when it looks like the league may suspend him a couple of games this year. Why would a team rush to redo a contract and pay megabucks for a player who’s next suspension will be even longer?
By the way… loved the Marshall “sub-plot”. LOL
Take my advice... I'm not using it!
"If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."
You hit the nail on the head as far as the Chargers
not giving Jackson an extension right now. Jackson needs to show some maturation before he gets his 10 mil a year.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions
That's what some of us said about Brandon Marshall and he ended up getting his millions from a different team.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions
And it’s why Jackson will hold out until the 11th game of the season. He won’t play on the one year tender and if AJ doesn’t pony up the money. His and McNeils absense will destroy their season.
I'm rooting for Team USA at the World Cup!
Hold out threats are so much more enjoyable when they are happening to other teams in our division.
This Jackson/McNeil situation is really putting a bounce in my step and a smile on my face.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 11:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Jackson's absence will not help that's for sure.
But he will not be the difference maker between a win or a loss. McNeill on the other hand, I don’t know. I can see us having some major struggles at first on the O-line. Kinda like last year in the PIT and BAL games after losing Hardwick and Vasquez. We had Mooch and Dombrowski (two career back ups IMO) starting and the O-line was just COLLAPSING. in the BAL game Haloti Ngata could not be stopped is was really bad. But as the season went on these guys really started to come into their own. I like the Tra Thomas signing. He might not be a Marcus McNeill but he should be solid in a rotation with Dombrowski.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Jackson is your best WR (by far) and McNeil is an above average LT. It’s not like SD is any good at run blocking or running the ball anyway so not having your best WR and LT will do your passing game no favors. Or the running game.
Not that SD was going to win the Super Bowl or anything in 2010, but without Jackson and McNeil for 10 games, your season will be average at best.
And the locker room will be all kinds of happy knowing how cheap the ownership is. Good times in Doltville.
I'm rooting for Team USA at the World Cup!
by McGeorge on Jun 16, 2010 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Every locker room embraces a situation where
some of their star players hold out. The Players are there to get their money and make a name for themselves. Star players who hold out give other players behind them a chance to step up and shine. It’s exciting for them not deterring.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions
It would be a lot more exciting for SD if AJ Smith hadn’t done such a crappy job in the 2007-2009 drafts robbing SD of it’s depth.
AJ Smith is still living off his 2005 draft, but the Dolt’s title of most talented NFL team was relinquished several years ago.
BUSTer Davis stepping in for V Jackson doesn’t scare anyone but Dolt fans.
Nice try, but no.
I'm rooting for Team USA at the World Cup!
You have no idea what you're talking about
regaurding the Chargers drafts between 2007-2009. I would argue with your statement but judging by your previous comments, you wouldn’t be capable of understanding.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, actually most of us understand just fine
Let’s start with 2010. I loved the Ryan Matthews pick for you, despite his history of missing time each year to injury and his accompanying tendency to run upright which increases his chances of injury. I like the Don Butler pickup and he should fit in well. Darrell Stuckey could be a steal.
But that’s about where I’d stop. Cam Thomas has needed a lot of work to get his attitude straight – he isn’t well self-motivated and never has been. He might turn out well, but he’s a question mark which explains why he dropped to the 5th round, even with the need to NTs this year. You then got a backup QB to replace Whitehurst and a second string college TE. I kind of like Epps, but I don’t see him as an impact player – could be wrong, and we’ll see. It’s too early to grade anything, but this is what nfl.com said about Epps:
Epps was an on-and-off starter for pretty much his whole career at Miami, and while he has shown some consistency and play-making skills, he really does nothing that jumps off the screen at you. He is fairly athletic and can adjust to off-target throws to make difficult catches, but he also will drop some easy ones, as well. He lacks the speed and acceleration to be much of a threat down the seams. He is a more-than-willing blocker but lacks the size to be more than a finesse blocker who just gets the job done
Not the kind of thing I’d like to read, but he’s a late rounder.
2009 – I loved the Larry English pick and I expect him to do well. Vasquez was a nice pickup and Vaughn Martin a major project who could be boom or bust. Tyrone Green could be a good guard, but Gartrell Johnson didn’t even make it out of TC. Brandon Hughes is iffy and Ellison haven’t produced. Since Ellison had problems along that line in college, he’s a very high risk player as is Brandon Hughes. Hughes made it into three preseason games, and that’s all. Not unusual for a young CB, but also not promising. Best of luck, very sincerely, to Byrd. I hope he makes it back. Still too early to expect to see what will happen, but after Green, I don’t see much potential (Except, as I’ve said, for my hopes for Byrd).
From 2008, Antoine Cason should start and was a great choice. Jacob Hester, 3rd round, is behind Tolbert on the roster from what’s being published. He seemed to be a reach at the time, and to me, he still does. After that, there’s nothing. DeJuan Tribble didn’t put up a single stat last year: it looks like he is out of the game. , Marcus Thomas was cut (Denver cut him too), and Corey Clark didn’t get into a game until later 2009 and racked up no stats. Not a great draft. You got a starter with the first pick, a backup with Hester in the 3rd and then nothing.
And in 2007, it all starts with Craig ‘Buster’ Davis at WR, a man who has done well at doing nothing – jokes on his name are even spread in the SD media, since he’s well named so far as ‘Bust-er).. Eric Weddle was a nice pickup in the secondary. Anthony Waters, now with the Saints, has 5 tackles in 3 years – not highly productive. Scott Chandler has moved on to the Giants. Legedu Naanee looks like he could be a good receiver. Brandon Siler had 67 tackles, which isn’t back for a rotational ILB. Paul Oliver has had issues, and managed a combined 49 tackles and 1 INT last year. so, a stater in Weddle, possible hit on Naanee and rotational players in Siler and Oliver. Not a great draft, but time will tell.
So, OK – what are we unable to cognate, according to your theory? What it looks like is that you’ve drafted in a mediocre fashion, blowing your 1st round pick in 2007 and having plenty of ’don’t knows’ or never will bes. That’s not unheard of – this is the 4th year in many 2010 contracts, the one where the player has to show what they have. I wouldn’t dis a draft because a couple of chances were taken, but when I look over this list, I’m less than excited and I’d be the same way if I were a SD fan. I’m seeing lots of reaches and quite a few picks that aren’t panning out. Feel free to set me straight if I’m missing something. Your team brought in Tra Thomas to see if he has one more year left, Reed and TE McMichael to replace Jackson and Manumaleuna – neither looks as good as the player they are replacing.
My conclusion would be that your drafts weren’t that spectacular and that you had a pretty bad draft in 2008. We don’t know anything on 2010, so Ryan Matthews could be great or just another guy how keeps getting injured.
Gnothi Seauton
by Doc Bear on Jun 16, 2010 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions 6 recs
Doc FTW!
Wow…I like the NBA quite a bit and I must say…there’s nothing like watching a truly spectacular slam-dunk.
Man…it is so funny when other people’s bloggers come over here and talk trash assuming our bloggers don’t know much about football…and then get promptly schooled.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
First off great post.
Second, please don’t put words in my mouth. I never said anything about the Chargers drafts being “spectacular”. My argument was that AJ did not do a “crappy job” since 2005, as McGeorge suggested.
He’s hit on a couple good players like Weddle and Vasquez and I think players like Siler and Cason have a lot of potential. We’ve only seen Buster catch 30 regular season passes so it doesn’t matter how many nicknames people make up for this guy, no one truly knows how good the guy really is or will be.
Again I never said anything about the drafts being “spectacular”, but I think AJ has done a “good” job.
My feelings exactly on Byrd. I hope at some point some team will give him a shot.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 3:51 PM MDT up reply actions
We mostly agree
You have no idea what you’re talking about
regaurding the Chargers drafts between 2007-2009. I would argue with your statement but judging by your previous comments, you wouldn’t be capable of understanding.
Actually, while McG can be snide at times, he knows his football pretty well. I doubt that he would have trouble following the draft info. I didn’t. We generally don’t accuse people of an inability to understand draft picks without some considerable reason.
I gave AJ props for hitting on the good players, but the percentages were lower than when AJ put the team together, hence the mention of the drafts being less than spectacular. They weren’t as good as they had been earlier, to take the (inadvertently) offensive word out – I didn’t accuse you of using it, btw, so perhaps you might calm down. I’m not attacking you, nor am I putting words in your mouth. AJ’s drafts early on were pretty near spectacular. The more recent ones have had lower percentages of success. 2008 was particularly poor overall. While I don’t support everything that is being said on either side, but I do think that it’s true that SD’s talent level overall is lower right now than 3 years ago.
Buster Davis has only caught about 30 balls because he seems to get injured a lot – not his fault, most likely (I have no idea what his offseason training regime is like), but after a few years, I think that it’s a realistic problem to mention. Do you disagree?
Gnothi Seauton
Doc, Rockin' the Suburbs!!!!!! AWESOME DOC!
It's like what Lenin said... you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh...
What an analysis!
And yet, the Chargers continue to win the West while your Broncos win………….what exactly? Yep, AJ sure sucks alright. He just keeps signing the guys he needs to win his division while the rest get to stay home in the lazy boys and pontificate on how terrible those Chargers are doing in the playoffs.
by philiprules on Jun 16, 2010 5:08 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thats because
Shanahan was worse at drafting and building a team than AJ. The point is that in the last year and a half Denver’s talent has been increasing and San Diego decreasing.
Now that that is over.....
The good old days
2005-2009 is a period that you can fondly look back on for years to come. They will forever more represent a time when the San Diego Chargers had hope of reaching the big game.
And now that that period is over and the window of opportunity is closed, the challenge that you and your fellow fans have in front of you, is to be able to find happiness in knowing that even though your future is no longer bright, for a few years, you at least were rooting for a contender.
As 3nS stated, SD is in a sudden decline, while Denver is on the rise. Let’s see how many Charger fans jump off the bandwagon in 2010 and how many stay. Judging by the activity over at BFTB, I’d say there will be very few left.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
One more thing
It doesn’t say much to glow about being better than only 3 other teams in the league. Talk about setting the bar low.
I have never seen a fanbase be so happy to win so little.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
by Horsepower on Jun 17, 2010 12:02 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
Nicely done. I hope that my quotes work as I hope, cause there’s no going back, once I hit post.
It takes neither courage nor intelligence to cheer for a team only when that team wins. The true test of a fan's mettle is the same as it is for a player: Were you there when you were needed?
aka Solace
Select and highlight a phrase you want to quote
Then, click on the quotation symbol above the text box, which will highlight that phrase.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
click preview first to make sure.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 17, 2010 9:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Yup, that's how it goes sometimes.
It might end up that way with Jackson. Who Knows?
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Perhaps.
Although, a trade seems unlikely this late in the offseason. You’d have to keep in mind that the team that trades for him would also have to write a big check. That means they wouldn’t give the chargers very much. The Chargers probably aren’t at the point where they are willing to take a lowball offer, so a deal is unlikely.
I think that each side is just going to continue to hold their ground and fight it out for a few months.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
well....at this point they kind of have to
accept a lowball offer if it saves them money on the contract.
They can either keep the digruntled and un re-signed player, or they can make a profit on him before he becomes a detriment to the team
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
True.
Either way, it works out well for rest of the AFC West. As a Broncos fan, I’ll gladly embrace any of those options for the Chargers.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 12:05 PM MDT up reply actions
I meant in the future. definitely not this season.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions
Chargers with VJ and McNeill > Broncos.
Chargers without VJ and McNeill > Broncos.
Please don't read my signature.
Nope not a troll.
Just stating the facts. You guys will also be without your #1 WR. Not to mention Clady will miss a good amount of time with his injury.
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 10:41 AM MDT up reply actions
Let me be the 1st to congratulate San Diego and its fans on winning another preseason Super Bowl for the 2010-2011 season as bestowed by the MSM prognosticators. You guys have really been racking those paper Super Bowls the last six or so years.
I'm rooting for Team USA at the World Cup!
by McGeorge on Jun 16, 2010 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thank you so much!
First I’d like to thank…. wait what?
Please don't read my signature.
by SoCalBoltFan on Jun 16, 2010 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions
+1000000000000000000000000
LMAO
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
very nice.
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately. - Benjamin Franklin
Whoa there...Did you just say what I think you said?
My prescription: two happy pills, (since they’re best taken with food, enjoy a nice medium rare Tebown steak), chase the whole thing with a glass half full of the orange koolaid (Orange Crush will do in a pinch), get a good night’s sleep and try that comment again…. - Broncs Cheer
by Orange and Blue on Jun 16, 2010 10:51 PM MDT up reply actions
How does that make sense?
I’m a Broncos fan, but come on that’s just a lame comeback, there is no team better down the streach in December then the Chargers. They lost to a defense that almost shut down Peyton Manning, they are far from chokers, in reality the Broncos were more choker then the Changers so come on man, that just stupid.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Jun 16, 2010 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think he's referring to the January chargers, not the December chargers.
You’re right. It’s impossible to claim they are poor down the stretch. They’ve won who knows how many december games in a row. However, they just can’t put it together in the playoffs. It seems like they forget how to play football once they get into the playoffs.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Well neither can the Colts
But no one is tearing them down.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Right, but at least the Colts have winning playoff record and a superbowl from 2006 to show for it.
The Chargers have one of the best regular season records in the last few years, but a losing playoff record and zero super bowl trophies to show for it. That’s the difference.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Chargers are 2-1 against the Colts in the playoffs
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I'm not talking about head to head in the playoffs. Just the playoffs, in general.
In the Chargers last 10 playoff appearances, the Chargers are 3-7.
In the Colts last 10 playoff appearances, the Colts are 6-4, including a super bowl win.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
PS3 ID: broncomaniac6
by Troy Hufford on Jun 16, 2010 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions
???
Uhm…the Colts won a superbowl. You are comparing apples and oranges…the sandy eggo chokers haven’t even been to one over a decade.
Colts = respectable fanchise
chargers = chokers until they prove otherwise
The bottom line stays the same…Super Bowl records:
Team Wins Losses
Denver 2 4
chargers 0 1
Yes ladies and gentlemen…that is a really big goose egg under the W column for the “greatest NFL team of the decade on paper”. You read it here first.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
Thats crap
Colts have won a Super Bowl, but it took almost a decade of struggling in the Playoffs to do it. Manning was called one of the biggest chokers in the NFL Playoffs till he won his Super Bowl. And if you think a teams success is based of of Super Bowl appearances and wins, that is bull crap, we’d be smack dab in the middle of the NFL if that were true with teams like Cleveland, Detroit (if you include pre-SB era) and Oakland would all be there with us, teams like Pittsburgh, SF, Chicago and Green Bay would all be leagues above us. Teams like the Rams and Eagles would sucks. So who said SD was the "greatest NFL team of the decade on paper". Nobody said that, most people would go with NE, Indy or Philly on that on. And how many SB’s did we win last decade again?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
to be fair...
the MSM OFTEN refers to Sandy Eggo as the best team on paper
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble