2010 Denver Broncos Positional Preview - Cornerbacks
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 11:30 AM MDT
in 2010 Denver Broncos Season Preview
153 comments
The primary responsibility of the cornerback is to cover wide receivers and allow the pass rush to reach the quarterback. However, it isn't always that simple. There are blitzes and zone coverages mixed in. They also must be able to provide run support during rushing plays. Fortunately, for us, the Denver Broncos cover the pass better than most of the NFL. In 2009, the Denver Broncos allowed the third fewest passing yards in the NFL. A lot of that success can certainly be attributed to the cornerback position, anchored by veterans Champ Bailey and Andre Goodman.
The cornerback position hasn't always been a strength of the Broncos, though. The cornerback position used to be an area of weakness for the Denver Broncos. In the 2003 and 2004 playoffs, the Broncos were beaten handily by Peyton Manning and the Colts offense, largely because of the lack of depth at the cornerback position. The Colts used the spread offense to expose the holes in the Bronco depth chart, which left us scrambling for solutions. We all thought we had found our answer in 2005 with Darrent Williams and, unfortunately, he was taken from us much too early (R.I.P. DWill). The Broncos continued looking to fill the void at the corner position. I believe we finally found a solution with Bailey and Goodman but the goal going forward is to maintain that level of success for years to come. We'll take a look at each of our cornerbacks and see what's in store at this position in 2010.
Let's start our assessment with a future Hall of Famer.
Champ Bailey has recorded a lot of stats in his day. At Charlton County High School in Folkston, Georgia, Champ Bailey was an outstanding football player. During his four years of high school, Champ rushed for 3,573 yards with 58 touchdowns, threw for 1,211 yards with 10 touchdowns, and 5,855 career total yards with 394 total points. Recorded 79.5 career tackles, eight interceptions and four fumble recoveries. That's quite a stat sheet. He was highly recruited across the nation, but decided to take his talents to the University of Georgia.
In college, he continued being a weapon all over the field. He played in all three phases of the game (offense, defense and special teams). During his final year at Georgia, as a junior, he recorded 52 tackles (4 for loss), 3 INTs, 7 passes defensed, 47 receptions for 744 yards (15.8 ypc), 5 TDs, 84 yards rushing on 16 carries, 12 kickoff returns for 261 yards and 4 punt returns for 49 yards. He averaged 103.5 all-purpose yards per game and logged 957 plays (547 defense, 301 offense and 109 special teams). It's also noteworthy that Champ Bailey once participated in a career-best 119 plays (62 on defense, 49 on offense and 8 on special teams) in a game against Auburn. When asked about the game, Champ said "I was just doing my job, whatever I could do to help the team. To me, it wasn't that big a thing."
That certainly sounds like something Champ Bailey would say, doesn't it?
After his junior year, Champ Bailey entered the NFL Draft and was drafted 7th overall by the Washington Redskins in the 1999 draft. While in Washington, he made his presence known and became one of the league's best defensive players. Although he was surrounded by a relatively inconsistent cast of characters, he still managed to record 177 tackles, 18 interceptions, 40 passes defensed and 2 forced fumbles in his 5 years as a Redskin.
He was traded to the Denver Broncos in exchange for Clinton Portis. Since becoming a Bronco, Champ has solidified the number 1 corner back position. Although he has suffered injuries to his calf, hamstring, shoulder, ankle, quadricep and groin, he was still able to amass 373 tackles, 28 interceptions, and 88 passes defensed in his 6 years as a Bronco. He was placed on 6 Pro Bowl rosters (if it weren't for his 2008 injury) during his 6 years as a Bronco and he was also chosen to be a part of the Denver Broncos 50th Anniversary team.
The biggest talk of the offseason has been Champ's contract. In 2004, he signed a 7 year deal worth $63 million dollars. That means his contract will expire in 2011. While Champ would like negotiations to begin right now, it doesn't appear that will happen. The Broncos haven't issued a statement, to this point, although it seems that the Broncos are going to wait until there are fewer variables at work in the CBA situation. Nobody knows if there will even be football next year, so it's understandable that a moratorium has been placed on extension talks. Although, the Broncos could hurt their chances to retain Champ if they wait until next year to arrange a deal. It's going to be interesting to see what happens in this situation. I, for one, certainly hope that Champ will be a Bronco until he retires.
What we do know, for a fact, is that Champ Bailey is going to be a Denver Bronco in 2010 and he is going to continue to play at an exceptional level. Given his recent history, the odds are pretty good that he'll make another Pro Bowl, as well.
Andre Goodman has had quite a journey before becoming a Bronco. He grew up in Greenville, South Carolina where he was successful as a high school wide receiver and defensive back. Oh yeah, and he ran a 10.5 second 100 meter dash on the track team (4.36 40 time). Speed has never been an issue for Andre. He was ranked the 20th best prospect in the state of South Carolina and was recruited by the South Carolina Gamecocks.
In college, he didn't line up at receiver, but he was converted to free safety. Halfway through his junior year, he was converted to cornerback. In his senior year, he had 86 tackles, 4 interceptions and 20 pass deflections as a senior with the Gamecocks. In 2002, he was drafted in the third round by the Lions. In his first year, he broke his thumb. In his second year, he dislocated his shoulder. Then he had a thigh injury in his third year, signed with Miami as an unrestricted free agent and filled in for an injured Travis Daniels to finish out his fourth pro season. The following season (2007), he injured his left shoulder again and went in for arthroscopic surgery. It seems to have worked because in 2008, he enjoyed his first 16 game season while recording 33 tackles and 5 interceptions.
The rest, they say, is history. Andre Goodman is going into his second season with the Denver Broncos. In 2009, he had his best season, to date, with 40 tackles and his second 5 INT season in a row. It seems that Goodman is getting better with age. If he continues to stay healthy, we can absolutely expect another solid season out of Andre Goodman in 2010.
Alphonso Smith owns a lot of records. As far as NCAA records go, he is number one on the list in both interceptions and interceptions for TDs. He is also 7th on the all time list in interception yards, and third on the list for interceptions per game. On those numbers, alone, he seems like a spectacular player. Unfortunately, he is linked with a draft day trade that really upset some Broncos fans. The Broncos traded a 1st round draft pick for a 2nd round draft pick so they could get an opportunity to take Smith. Let's not allow that trade to cloud our judgement of Alphonso Smith.
Alphonso Smith has instincts that served him well at the college level. In the pros, things are a little faster and his technique needs to be more refined. Before you get up in arms about that, keep in mind that most corners hear that after their rookie season. The corner back position is one of the most difficult transitions from college to the NFL. I don't think we need to give up on him, right now. He has had an excellent offseason, allegedly picking off a pass every day of the final minicamp. Champ Bailey said in June, "He's grown a lot. I think he understands what we expect from him." Smith said, "I'm just trying to take as many reps as I can to get better as a nickel player and a cornerback and to help the defense." I expect him to make his presence known in 2010 with much better production than last year.
Perrish Cox grew up in Waco, Texas, and attended University High School. As a senior in high school, he recorded 27 tackles, 9 interceptions along with 47 receptions for 670 yards and 12 touchdowns. Scout.com listed him as a national top 100 player and Rivals.com listed him as the number 8 corner in the nation. Not too shabby.
He transitioned to Oklahoma State and, as a true freshman, became the first player since Barry Sanders to return the open a season with a kickoff return for a touchdown. During his 4 years at OSU, he recorded 130 tackles and 10 interceptions. He also had 60 punt returns for 694 yards and 2 touchdowns and 117 kick returns for 2804 yards and 4 touchdowns. He was named returner of the year in 2008 and currently holds the OSU and Big 12 (now the Big 10 after the realignment, but that's a whole other story) record for career kickoff return touchdowns with 4.
Cox was expected to go as high as the 1st round by most draft analysts and no lower than the 3rd round. Perrish Cox was drafted by the Denver Broncos in the 5th round (137th overall) of the 2010 NFL Draft largely because of his unexpectedly slow 40-yard dash time (4.58 seconds). As of June 9th, Perrish Cox is signed and ready to go for training camp.
Some argued that the reason Perrish Cox plummeted to the 5th round was his suspension from the Cotton Bowl. Cox wrote on his facebook page that he was 30 minutes late and violated the team's curfew. Cox said, "(The suspension) hurt me in a great way. I was told I was supposed to go higher than I did. The Cotton Bowl was a mistake on my part. It's something I learned from and want to put in my past." Coach McDaniels discussed the pick by saying, "There was no hesitation on our part at this point (in the draft). He's admitted he's made some mistakes. I go back to... 'Is this a character issue or is this a guy who has made a few wrong decisions?' We think it is (the latter; we spent some time with Perrish at his pro day and at the combine."
I am really excited about Perrish Cox. He seems to be making a big impact during the offseason. I'm really excited by Josh McDaniels' quote on June 12th.
I think he goes about his business every day. He's out there working hard. He's here early and stays late. He's trying to find a role in the kicking game as well as competing at both sides at corner. He hasn't disappointed us in terms of what we thought we were getting.
I expect Perrish Cox to make this team. His versatility as both a corner and a punt/kick returner make him very appealing to Josh McDaniels. Also, his size certainly helps, as well. Currently, the Broncos only have two corners that are 6 foot tall, Champ Bailey and Perrish Cox. I'm really excited about Perrish Cox and I think he will be a solid backup corner, at least. If he develops into the return role, taking the place of Eddie Royal, that will be the cherry on top.
Nate Jones played running back and defensive back at Scotch Plains-Fanwood High School in Scotch Plains, New Jersey. As a senior, he was a first-team all-state selection, rushing for 2,474 yards and 36 touchdowns along with 6 interceptoins.
Nate Jones played college ball at Rutgers, where he was a four year letterman. He finished his career with 219 tackles, 5 interceptions, 18 pass breakups, 2 forced fumbles and 2 fumble recoveries. He also blocked three kicks and returned 82 kickoffs for 3 touchdowns.
He was then drafted in the seventh round by the Dallas Cowboys in the 2004 Draft. He played in all 16 games in his rookie year while recording 31 tackles and a sack. In 2005, he continued his role as a backup and notched 2 tackles on defense with 12 on special teams. In 2006, he was inactive for the first 12 games, but in the final four he recorded 8 tackles on defense and 3 on special teams. In 2007, he was inactive for one game and played as a backup in 15. He recorded 17 tackles, a sack and 2 forced fumbles on defense and 9 tackles, 6 kickoff returns for a 20.4 yard average on special teams.
After the 2007 season, Nate Jones became a free agent and signed a two-year deal with the Miami Dolphins. The obvious connection is Bill Parcells, who drafted Jones as the head coach of the Cowboys in 2004. In 2009, the Dolphins used Jones much more extensively than he was used as a Cowboy. He was lined up in nickel packages and often covered the slot receiver. He recorded a career-high 45 tackles. From reports I've read, he did a great job of playing nickel corner, last year, but the reason he was cut is likely because of how Wes Welker shredded his coverage twice last year to the tune of 19 receptions for 251 yards. Let's face it, though... not many people in the NFL are going to be able to cover Wes Welker. Also, if you assume he made the tackle on most of those Welker receptions, you could say that Welker was almost half of his receptions allowed and that was only in two games. That has to count for a moral victory, at least.
In Denver, Nate Jones has a really good chance to make the 2010 Broncos Roster and start as a nickel corner, especially if our young guys (Alphonso Smith and Perrish Cox) struggle. I don't anticipate that happening, but I think his experience with the position will be enough to keep him around. The Broncos have been in need of a guy to cover the And fortunately for him, he won't have to face Wes Welker... unless we see the Patriots in the Playoffs. Right?
Tony Carter grew up in Jacksonville, Florida, and was ranked by Rivals.com as the nation's 2nd best corner as a senior in high school. As a junior, he made the state finals in the 110 meter hurdles. He was one of the fastest football players in the state of Florida with a 4.30 40-yard dash time. As a senior, he had 43 tackles, 9 interceptions on defense and 2 blocked kicks on special teams. He also scored 5 touchdowns while splitting time on offense as a quarterback and wide receiver. Tony decided to attend Florida State over Tennessee and North Carolina.
While at Florida State, Tony Carter started in all 50 career games while recording 139 tackles, 9 interceptions and 26 pass breakups. He was the first player in FSU history to return a blocked extra point and blocked field goal for scores in the same game. Going into the 2009 draft, Carter was just looking to be given a chance. His size really hindered his draft stock, but the broncos brought him aboard as an unrestricted college free agent.
He spent the first 14 weeks of the 2009 season on the practice squad and was called up to play against Oakland. Last year, Alphonso Smith, Jack Williams, Ty Law, Josh Barrett and Tony Carter were all used in the nickel spot. Of those names, only Alphonso Smith, Josh Barrett (safety) and Tony Carter remain. That has to speak for something. Obviously, Josh McDaniels thinks that Tony Carter has more to bring to the table than Jack Williams and Ty Law, at least.
He will be given another shot at earning his roster spot in Training Camp 2010. He has a good chance of making the team, as long as he continues to show Coach McDaniels that he is taking positive steps and making steady progress towards becoming a solid NFL player.
Syd'Quan Thompson was the Broncos 7th round pick (225 overall). As a high school senior, he was rated the number 11 corner in the nation. He recorded 70 tackles and 2 interceptions on defense and also rushed for 1,136 yards and 13 touchdowns on offense before deciding to become a California Golden Bear. While at college, he started all 52 games after being redshirted in 2005.
In 2009, he was on the watch list for the Lott Trophy, which is awarded to the nation's top defensive player with strong character. Leading up to the 2009 season, The NFL Draft Scout wrote, "His straight-line speed, agility, reliable open-field tackling and natural return skills would be earning significantly more attention from the national media if he played in the Big Ten or SEC. He finished his career as Cal's all-time leader in pass breakups with 36, amassed 257 tackles, 7 INTs returned for 204 yards, 43 passes defensed and 2 sacks.
If he wants to make the team, he'll have to really step up in training camp and show he can be a reliable backup.
Cassius Vaughn grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, and was the number 10 ranked player coming out of high school. At Ole Miss, he played in all 50 games. In his senior year, he tied for 7th in the SEC in passes defended with 13. He notched 2 interceptions and ranked fifth on his team with 56 (44 solo) and 3.5 tackles for loss.
Cassius Vaughn is a 2009 undrafted rookie for the Broncos and he'll have his work cut out for him if he wants to make this team in the fall. He is a long shot.
Outlook
There is no change in our number 1 and 2 corner backs from last year. Champ Bailey and Andre Goodman should both make the team and be outstanding starters, once again. 2010 should be another season where the Broncos are stout against the pass. Champ and Goodman are an excellent combination.
Behind that, things could look a little bit different. I expect 5 or 6 corners to make the 53 man roster. Both Alphonso Smith and Perrish Cox should make the team. I'm excited about Smith and Cox in 2010, though. Word from OTAs was that they were putting on quite a show. I don't think they'll hide under a rock in training camp and get cut from this team. On the contrary, I think we'll see them quite a bit in the regular season making plays and earning some NFL tenure.
The real training camp competition is going to come for spots 5 and 6. We'll have Nate Jones, Tony Carter, Syd'Quan Thompson, and Cassius Vaughn. Keeping 5 is a conservative number for corners, but 6 could be kept if McDaniels feels there is really good depth at the position. At this point, I think Nate Jones has a grasp of the 5th roster spot, based on his previous history on special teams with the Cowboys and Dolphins. Tony Carter and Syd'Quan Thompson are in a similar situation from the standpoint that they are both young guys trying to unseat a veteran, Nate Jones. Whether or not they can do it remains to be seen. If one of them really stands out and shows excellent skills, the Broncos would likely keep 6 corners to accommodate for this. Keep in mind that the top of the depth chart is aging and both have a history of injury, so the Broncos depth at corner needs to be a priority. Knock on wood that everyone stays healthy, though.
Overall, the 2010 Bronco corner backs should be an exciting bunch to watch. Now that you've read more about them, what do you think about the corner back position?
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One thing you cant deny McDaniels...
He has taken the defensive backs from one of the weakest parts of the team under Shanahan and turned it into one of the teams biggest strengths going forward.
The combination of veteran leadership and young talent should serve the Broncos very well for years to come! Im excited to see what potential our young corners have.
AND GIVE CHAMP A EXTENSION!
by Josh.vh on Jul 15, 2010 11:51 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree, although give Shanny a little bit of credit where it's due.
I’d say that Shanahan has been hit and miss with corners. Although. he did bring us Champ and DWill, to give us a solid #1 and #2. Unfortunately, the cornerback position took a hit, in terms of talent, after the death of DWill.
It’s a shame that a tragedy took away such a great young man and a great young corner.
And I absolutely agree with your final sentence.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed
But when you take the safety position into the equation with the cornerbacks, Shanny’s record falls of a bit, eh? :)
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 5:51 AM MDT up reply actions
Yes... yes it does.
John Lynch aside, we’re talking about Hamza Abdullah, Marlon Mcree, Marquan Manuel….
My heart couldn’t stand another season of those players.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 16, 2010 8:08 AM MDT up reply actions
“The corner back position is one of the most difficult transitions from college to the NFL”
That’s funny. I’ve heard the same thing said about O-line, QB, WR, OLB and D-line.
I gave us a B. Would have been a A if the Phonz had played even somewhat okay last season. But he sucked something awful and having poor play at nickel and dime really cost us in 2009.
Goodman was great bang for our buck in 09. Champ had another rock solid season. The help from safety was new since I guess I got used to years of Manuel, Lowry, Nick F, Lynch, etc “Garbage” play vs the pass.
Pork Chop Williamson is really decent really.
I did say "one of the most difficult", not "the most difficult", so don't allow that to trip you up.
I’m not here to argue against the difficulty of the transition for those other positions. We could debate, all day, about where these positions rank in terms of how difficult the transition is to the NFL but, frankly, that’s not what these previews are about.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Maybe it’s just the transition from college football to the NFL is harder for some players than others.
I’d stop right there instead of picking positions. I fully expect P Cox to play better in 2010 than Smith did in 2009. If not, that will be disappointing.
Pork Chop Williamson is really decent really.
You may have heard that about other positions, but this is accurate
I’d put CB right behind QB as hardest transitions from college to NFL.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
I don't buy it
Along with WR, OT, OC, OG, DT, DE and OLB.
As far as I can see, it really is just a built in excuse that depends entirely on which rookies struggle in any given season.
J Byrd, D Cox and Jenkins did okay last season.
Pork Chop Williamson is really decent really.
but none were able to have the impact that percy harvin, mike wallace, michael oher, brian orakpo, clay matthews or brian cushing had
sorry i couldn’t think of any OC or DT’s from last year lol
by march20 on Jul 15, 2010 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Jairus Byrd lead the NFL with 9 ints last season. Call me crazy, but that seems somewhat impactful to me.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Too be fair, Byrd was a CB in college, but played S for the Bills.
But that means he had to switch positions (like a Robert Ayers) and yet he still make a ton of plays. He bypassed the rookie suckage we are supposed to expect and the Phonz certainly endured.
Curious, did you even know whom Jarius Byrd was before I brought this up?
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
there is so much wrong with this post
1) Safety is easier to play
2) The difference between Safety and CB is far far far less than DE and OLB
3) There’s always an exception to a general rule, but it doesn’t actually change the general rule
4) Some of Phonz’s problem is that he was injured not just rookie problems
5) We don’t have to expect we just recognize that it’s normal, and has very little predictive value towards the rest of their career.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 15, 2010 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions
I went for full disclosure at his position. I didn’t try to mislead. Byrd was a CB in high school and college, just like the Phonz.
I guess I was just shocked that he said Byrd didn’t have the same impact as a Oher or Matthews. Byrd had a bigger impact than either guy.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
That is incredibly superficial
and self serving. unless you’ve got way more info than what’s been presented here. To think that nine ints are more valuable than a starting tackle is just absurd. Even Matthews had a huge impact on a green bay team that was in transition and he was key. Looking at one stat, of only one of the guys is mindbogglingly bad.
I didn’t follow the Bills last year but I did follow the packers because I live right by Green Bay, and I kind of like the ravens. Those two guys had a huge impact.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 16, 2010 8:37 AM MDT up reply actions
9 ints… Leading the league. Are you joking? That is real damn valuable compared to just about any other stat.
Nine Ints stakes up well vs 20 sacks or 25 rushing TDs or 4,000 passing yards. 9 Ints is a massive accomplishment, especially for a rookie.
Champ Bailey, a 1st ballot HOF player, had 10 Ints once. His second highest season total was 8. You’re smoking the crack rock if you think you can devalue the kind of accomplishment Byrd had in his rookie year.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
no I'm not smoking crack
please try not to attack other posters.
Bailey is a potential hall of famer for more than is int numbers. I’m not trying to devalue byrd’s numbers I’m trying to help keep them in perspective.
A safety can only have so much impact compared to a RT who is in on every play. Remember we were making a comparison between Byrd and other people.
More than that I’m not talking about the int, but about how superficial a post is that only looks at those numbers. 9 ints could be good, or it could be a sign that Byrd took too many risks. Or that everyone else was playing well so he got tested a lot.
If you really wanted to prove something about his quality of play you should have posted a stat about his passing yards allowed. Even better would be a yards allowed per play, and how he ranked among safeties. I don’t want to come off to harsh here McGeorge, I just want to help you understand so that you can be taken seriously.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 16, 2010 10:36 AM MDT up reply actions
Glass houses and stones.
“please try not to attack other posters”.
So now your feelings are hurt Mr. Sarcasm.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
my feelings weren't hurt
I’m just trying to help you be a better poster.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 7:42 AM MDT up reply actions
Coming for a guy (you) with a very loose grip on facts.
Thanks, but no thanks.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Flag it as inappropriate.
From the agreement that everyone signed to become a member, it was agreed that there would be no personal attacks. If you feel someone has violated any part of that agreement, flag the comment.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 17, 2010 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions
I know, McG, and you are a gentleman for doing so.
It’s just that not everybody is aware of or remembers all of their their rights as an MHR member. In some cases (not just this one) posters feel they are being victimized and there isn’t anything they can do about it. On the contrary, there is something they can do about it (flag the comment/fanpost/fanshot or, like you said, yell “uncle”).
For the record, your comment hasn’t been flagged. I was just reiterating that if someone feels they are (or someone else is) being personally attacked, they are perfectly within their rights to flag something.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 17, 2010 5:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Don’t think there is such a stat for passing yards allowed by a safety.
9 Ints = big time playmaker. Just like 17 sacks = big time playmaker. That Int stat tells you a lot about a player. Those are game changing plays and Byrd made more of the Int kind of game changing play than any other NFL player in 2009. You may not consider an Int of any significance, but all 32 D coordinators in the NFL certainly do. It’s impactful and it is a stat than can stand alone.
I could care less if Fan in Exile even reads my posts. But I guess you do anyway.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
There is a stat like that
but I think it was a premium one from Football outsiders.
I never said I didn’t consider an int significant. I said that a post which only cited ints on one half of a comparison was superficial.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 7:44 AM MDT up reply actions
The same football outsiders that keep telling us San Diego is the most talented team in the NFL.
Again, no thanks, I’d rather spend my money on collecting garbage pale kids or pro surfing trading cards.
Int is about a real a stat as you have in the NFL. As real as TDs, sacks and forced fumbles. It’s legit and certainly a way to measure a player. You may feel otherwise.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
just because you don't want to pay for it
doesn’t mean it isn’t there or that it can’t help you dig deeper.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions
hang on dude
Safety is NOT easier to play at any level! In HS you play a lot of Man CB and Zone Safety unless you have a former NFL/D-1 Coach.
Zone Coverage/ Open Field is harder than covering one guy cause you account for the whole field. you take into account the talent at the NFL level when you play zone it becomes much harder.
If you are the Free Safety and you are in a zone coverage with Randy Moss and Wes Welker lined up on YOUR SIDE which one do you pay more attention to?
its not too simple
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 15, 2010 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions
Normally I appreciate your posts but...
You’re totally right thats why in general S make as much money as CB… oh wait.
Maybe that’s why S are drafted just as high as CB are… oh wait.
Maybe that’s why a failed safety will try out at cornerback… oh wait it’s the other way around.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 16, 2010 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are missing the paradigm shift.
You are behind the times, just like the late Shanahan Bronco teams that suffered from poor safety play vs the pass. A safety that can defend the pass and make plays on the ball has become a far more valuable commodity over the last few years. Teams with great safety play have the best defenses (i.e. the Ravens – Ed Reed), Steelers (Troy P), Eagles (Dawkins). Teams with great CBs over the last few years (Broncos, Raiders come to mind) were average D’s and largely unsuccessful in the W-L column over that same time.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
apparently I have
as well as every GM and FO.
Those teams are great becuase of their front sevens and because of their schemes. Having a great safety doesn’t hurt but teams can have a great d without them. For example the Giants Defense that won the superbowl. The Saints defense this year, great scheme really improved them, no real great safety.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 16, 2010 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions
You are a funny guy. Thanks for the slow pitch.
The other Int league leader in 2009 was Darren Sharper, a starting safety for the Saints D last season. He made nine Ints last season, three of which he returned for TDs. Mr. Sharper was the starting safety at the 2010 Pro Bowl.
Point to McGeorge, unless you think 9 Ints and 3TDs in one season from the Saints starting S was lackluster.
Try not to T me up like that next time.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
dude I would love to have a ball set on a T like that for me!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 16, 2010 5:16 PM MDT up reply actions
speaking of Teeing things up for a guy
This elite safety that you’re talking about couldn’t get resigned by his own team. Couldn’t get a Free agency contract and finally had to take a reduced deal. No one wanted to pay him elite money so while you may just look at the ints and think he was elite the people who make decisions in the NFL didn’t.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 7:49 AM MDT up reply actions
I knew you would play that card. Very predictable.
Sharper is also in his 14th season. He’s old and has an injury history and you know as well as I do that old players like him (sans QBs) NEVER get long term deals with big signing bonuses. NEVER NEVER NEVER happens.
The current CBA screws vets like him while rewarding 1st round draft picks like JaMarcus Russell. It’s pretty stupid, but it’s also the deal the players and owners struck and the one that will lead to a lockout next year.
Elite money is reserved for the guys in the mid 20s. Guess which other player won’t get a big new deal next year. Yep, the best CB of the decade. Mr. Champ won’t sign a major deal next off-season. He’ll take a huge paycut and his contract will be much shorter. That is just the way it works. And you know that as well as I do.
This is fun.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
what's fun is watching you
dig up excuses for why you aren’t wrong. Seriously older guys get big money all the time, they just don’t get big guaranteed money. That’s where the CBA gets them.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
support?
can you show me the big names who got block buster deals after 30 who dont play the QB position?
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 17, 2010 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions
What's sad is
to see that you think you’re right when I made a bunch of points that you can’t even think of one response to. You’ve got one nit that you’re trying to pick.
I’m done you’re clearly not going to have an open mind, and I’ve got better things to do.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions
This is such a moronic argument that I'm not sure why I'm getting involved...
However, I think you are both right, and both wrong.
CB is a harder position to find and fill at an elite level, and therefore elite CBs are worth more to a team or GM (supply/demand) than safeties are. There are far more elite safeties in the NFL (Dawk, Reed, Polomalu, A.Wilson, Sharper, etc.) that are fuctionally equivelent in a defense to the big 3 CBs (Revis, Bailey, Polamalu).
That said, bad safety play is worse for a team than bad CB play, so if you’re safeties are bad, the quality of your CBs becomes much less important… you can deal with subpar CB play if your safeties are good, but if your safeties suck you’re hosed. E.g. Champ with M&M behind him is worse than Reed with Toothpaste and Chewing gum in front of him even though its easier to find a “Reed” than it is a “Champ”.
So while safety is easier to be competant/elite at than CB, its also more critical… take your pick on what that means about Smith, McBath, etc…
by cjfarls on Jul 16, 2010 1:26 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would agree with this
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 16, 2010 5:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Hey now
Don’t underestimate Chewing gum, it can really STICK to the WR!!
Yeah, that was bad. I should be ashamed of myself. :D
by AllBroncsallday on Jul 17, 2010 6:26 PM MDT up reply actions
just because the cash is there doesn't mean the position is harder
think back to 2008 how many times did you scream at Champ vs ANY safety I would bet that you were frustrated less with the CB’s than the Safeties because they are the final attempt to stop the TD. The emphasis on safety is that they are normally a much better tackler than your CB’s they can read an offense better and can break up plays better. Like McG said above teams with great safeties are better defenses. Bet you the saints are glad they signed Darren Sharper!
I have no trouble playing man coverage, most NFL DB’s don’t either. When you switch to zone and you are required to cover 1/2 of the field as your assignment it gets tougher. CB’s have a one on one harder job as most safeties are not asked to cover the likes of randy moss, Jerry Rice and the like. But to say that CB is harder to play is a little off. I was a great CB in HS but only a decent safety because I couldn’t flippin figure zone out to save my life. once I did the WHOLE game got easier to play! multiply that by about 100 at the NFL level.
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 16, 2010 5:15 PM MDT up reply actions
The biggest problem with a shutdown CB is that their excellence is their curse. After the season Revis had last year, he might not see 10 passes thrown his way in all of the 2010 season. Sure he is shutting down a WR and/or part of the field, which is great, but most teams with two or three decent WR/TE/RB so they’ll just exploit other match ups. As we saw with the Colts vs Denver in the playoffs a few years back. Champ was great in all those games while we lost by 25 points per contest.
An Ed Reed or Troy P can make a bigger impact in helping his mates than a Revis or Bailey.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Exactly
The thing that killed us was Dre Bly was being exposed as a poor tackler and had no help over the top to keep that side of the field shut down. They never had to throw to Champ’s side of the field. Safety Play effects so much of the game.
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 17, 2010 11:14 AM MDT up reply actions
McG....why did I know this post would be a Smith hate fest for you...give the kid a break until after this season...support him instead of trying to kill him...it would be nice for a change!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Rest assured Boydy – There were two players I was convinced were going to suck in 2009. I was 110% sure that Prater and Simms were worthless and had no right to wear the orange and blue. I was all over those two last offseason.
I was very right about Simms. But 110% wrong about Prater. Prater was one of the best 5 kickers in the NFL last season. I won’t hear otherwise. He was that good and I was that wrong about him.
The 2010 Broncos I’m certain will suck are the Phonz and Richard Quinn (McD’s 2009 draft trade-up targets along with Bradstater). So one of these guys is doomed and the other is headed to future pro bowler status. It would be better for Denver if the stud turns out to be the Phonz. So Phonz, take my hate and run with it like ole Prater did.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
by McGeorge on Jul 16, 2010 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1 here
I’d love if phonz went the Prater route.
So who are your two draft picks you didnt like this year?
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 16, 2010 5:18 PM MDT up reply actions
I liked our 2010 draft a lot more than our 2009 draft. A lot more.
There was not Phonz, or Ayers or Quinn pick in the 2010 draft. All the picks made a lot more sense to me. The value made sense, the approach made sense, the whole damn 2010 Bronco draft made sense. I’ll be much easier on these rookies because I get why they are on the Broncos, pretty much all of the 2010 picks.
The thing I really don’t like about McD is the hubris for a young and inexperienced guy. He comes into the Bronco job and in his first draft with barely a few months to prepare, and the kid is already trading away future unknown 1st round draft picks for 2nd round talents (in the weak 2009 draft no less). He goes out and says, “we got 3 first round talents” like it’s some kind of fact and he is just smarter than everyone else to be able to draft these players when and how he did. All the while, the rest of the NFL was really scratching their heads at the Phonz trade and to a lesser extent the Quinn trade. They thought Denver was crazy to make such a deal and in retrospect, they were right. We counldn’t trade the Phonz for a 5th round pick today.
I wanted to grab McD by the ear and yell.. Bro, chill out making all these bold and aggressive roster moves before you’ve ever coaching a single game. He hadn’t coaching a single game at any level and he is already making crazy move after bold move like he knew something more than the rest of the world. Like he was the smartest guy in the NFL. It really pissed me off. It’s the reason I’m glad the Phonz pick bombed so bad last year. Hubris paired with such aggressiveness will lead to ruin far more often than it will lead to riches. I doubt McD ever tries that sort of trade ever again. McX showed a lot of growth in the 2010 draft and that is worth noting with a big NOTE!.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Sorry for all the grammar mistakes. I’m need a nap and a editor.
Sheesh!
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Lol
That has been stewing for a whole year. I’m glad you let it out.
I agree with your assessment too.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
It's all good bro
I agree I was questioning moves too.
I tend to look at piece by piece before I judge.
McDaniels does come off as childish sometimes but I decided when we hired a “rookie” head coach I was gonna give him the “rookie curve” and wait two-three years to make a judgment on his overall body of work.
He made better choices in 2010 than 2009 so if that draft was what he needed to make better draft decisions than I will take the bad with our good
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 17, 2010 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
no i didn't...
…but just looking at who i consider the 3 top corners right now: revis, bailey, and asomugha. none of em had amazing first seasons. Obviously they had the talent to become the amazingness they are now the simply needed to have time to get a read on all of the players and the speed of the game. i honestly believe corner HAS to take time to become good. It’s like playing poker, corners rely so much on reading the tells that WR have to determine which way they go so they need to time to get used to them after watching film and hopefully some in game experience.
PS to be honest i didn’t watch revis’ first season and he had like 80 something tackles and a few interceptions so i don’t know if that was cause he was getting beat a lot and he needed to tackle the WRs or he played the run a lot cause his tackles dropped a lot the last two years
Champ Bailey had 5 Ints and TD in his rookie year. I wouldn’t compare the Phonz to special players like those guys.
You should be comparing the Phonz to guys like Tory James or Karl Paymuh since that is about as well as the Phonz showed in his rookie year. The Phonz rookie year looks so-so compared to those two and that makes for a more accurate comparison.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Here we go again....
That message played out months ago.
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
by BroncoCUbuffs on Jul 15, 2010 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions
I hat to say it
but I gotta agree with McG here. Champ and Goodman give us two quality starters but after that it’s all hope and promise still. I’ll wait until I see them in pre-season. If ti was still a run first league I might go A-, but it has become such a pass first league that I’m not sure we’re even B- rigth now.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jul 15, 2010 5:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree B
Champ and Andre are a good starting set but too many unproven behind them
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 15, 2010 7:15 PM MDT up reply actions
Personally....
I think that if we had 4 rocks…a squirrel, a hamster, and Champ Bailey….I would have to give us an A.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
by DenBronx on Jul 15, 2010 1:12 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
+1! Seriously
I had to grab my desk so I wouldn’t fall out of my chair when I read that. Just an awesome comment.
Although, I’d give it a High B with the lineup you described… Champ can only cover half the field :)
On a side note… who are the jokers that gave the position an “F” grade on the poll? Methinks we have some jealous AFC West rivals in our midst. Haters in the house!
~Davus.X~
Est. 1967
Bleeding Orange and Blue for 42 years
Resident of La-La-Land! Mike Clark for President!
How about NEXT YEAR?! 13-3 BABY!
Cough... raiders fans... cough....
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 3:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Isn't that what we had
in 2008? Until Champ went down, then it was 2-squirrels and a hamster, or maybe it was one squirrel and two hamsters.
by SlowWhiteGuy on Jul 15, 2010 5:26 PM MDT up reply actions
all with rocks for brains. And in their shoes.
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 5:54 AM MDT up reply actions
A
This is the clear leader as our “best” part of the team. These guys rock.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
I think that I would put safety slightly higher than CB on this team — mainly due to last year’s rookie play — but both are strengths now.
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 5:55 AM MDT up reply actions
i hope cox is ready to try and fill dwill's shoes....
… cause he’s gonna get compared to dwill a lottt
twss
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Great post KB
Words can’t describe how stoked I am about Our Defense this year!!! Talk about top shelf! My confidence then barely even ebbs when it comes to Safeties, LB and DL as well.
Positions I am most confident/excited about in order
- - Special Teams!!!
CB
RB
S
QB
LB
WR
DL
TE
OL
That’s my rough draft anyway. ;-J
Thanks for the post, love this series!
That's quite a long handle there, G Funk. - That's what she said.
First (and only, in our lifetimes) team to three consecutive SB wins!!!! ( =
by PearlJamBroncoGFunk on Jul 15, 2010 3:05 PM MDT reply actions
numbers
Keeping 5 is a conservative number for corners, but 6 could be kept if McDaniels feels there is really good depth at the position.
I’ve been discussing the possibility that we’ll go ‘high,’ but the important point that people need to understand is that it entails changing our roster configuration from last year — when we went with 5 Safeties and 4 CBs. And it also could mean changes elsewhere on the roster, such as whether we carry 5 RBs, who were part of the 26 players we carried on offense last year.
It’s hard not to comment on previous coaching regime’s efforts to rebuild the CB position since it’s emblematic in many ways of what went wrong during the Shanahan era. And, just to reiterate my position again, I’m not a Shanahan detractor. But it’s clear from looking back that CB is a position that we tried to rebuild through a variety of methods and were fairly unsuccessful. In fact, rebuilding CB was our annual goal for an extended period of time and we expended considerable resources on the project — to no avail.
The patchwork quality that typified the position for many years was the result of strange draft picks (Middlebrooks, Deltha O’Neal), questionable acquisitions (Dale Carter, Dre’ Bly, and a hodgepodge of other signings. Champ Bailey’s acquisition stands out as a solitary moment of shining lucidity. And 2005’s draft was an attempt to finally fix the problem by flooding the position, which — unfortunately — it didn’t do.
The point is that we do have depth now. In fact, we have a surprising number of players who might have made the team in years past but won’t this year. It’s hard to develop players if you don’t have room for them on your roster so we’ll have to carry at least five. There’s a lot of talent on the bubble that won’t make the team, so the final roster decisions are going to be interesting.
I see Smith, Jones and Cox as near locks, which means that either Thompson or Carter (probably) could earn a 6th CB slot if he demonstrates his worth. Carrying 6 CBs is easy if we have a full 25 on offense but it becomes a luxury if we’re configured like last year’s team.
no goats, no glory.
Good points
I think Denver will keep 4 safeties to allow for at least 1 more CB
"Ben Roethlisburger is screwed up, he uses bathrooms for sex and golf courses for bathrooms." Unknown
Me too
Nate Jones and Renaldo Hill can play both positions. This may allow Syd’Quan to make the roster instead of the PS. Or, it could mean that Barrett will stick.
Incidentally, I gave it a “B.” Probably a B-plus. If the depth shows up, by the end of the year, it could be an “A.”
Nice work kb.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Ok....I dont get it....name 3 teams with a better secondary than us and people are not giving our secondary an 'A"...wow, some hard to please people...not directed at you KK...just generally!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
by boydy2669 on Jul 16, 2010 6:35 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Teams with better CBs: NYJ, CIN, GB & others
NYJ (Revis, Lowery, Cromartie)
CIN (L. Hall, Joseph, Trent, A. Jones)
GB (Woodson, T. Williams, A Harris)
Other teams with CBs arguably better than Broncos: BALT, MIA, DAL, ATL, …
We have Champ, Goodman (a good cover corner who is well below average at run support), and question marks with potential.
I voted “B”.
I dunno about that
I definitely agree with NYJ, CIN, and GB also although there are question marks with them.But after that i dont think any of those other teams have better CB’s. I have no idea why you put Baltimore on here there CB’s are the weakest part of there team, so much so that they had to sign 50 yr old walt Harris to the roster. They have CB’s that can play on the other side or at nickel but none stands out.. its an average unit i dont know why you would say they’re better than us. Miami has potential with Vontae Davis but based on last years performance you cant say their better either and they havent done anything in the off-season or draft to help the position.
The Cowboys have a good unit but even so goodman had just as many interceptions as Mike Jenkins and almost the same amount of tackles, as for Newman, Champ Bailey is clearly better. The nickel guy scandrick is better than what we had last year but thats all they got on us. Our starting two is better than their starting two.
Falcons got CB Dunta Robinson but they lost Houston also…I know Robinson is good but i dont see your basis for having the falcons rated higher in CB’s…Dunta robinson had 64 tackles and 0 INT’s, Bailey had 74 tackles and 3 INT’s.
Although i do agree that we aren’t as good as the top three you gave, everybody else is very questionable. I think what ultimately separates us is our depth at the CB position. We have 3 players; Alphonso Smith, Perrish Cox, and Syd’quan Thompson who could potentially be ball hawks in the secondary. Not just okay but great prospects who back up our already strong starting group. I’ve watched Cox and Syd’Quan play and i was amazed they weren’t picked up in the first 3 rounds, Thompson played at Cal so i got to see all his games he is real good and plays much like Dunta Robinson, strong tackler and breaks for the ball with a lot of speed. As for Cox he plays different than Thompson but is great in his own right.
I know this is really long but i just cant see how our CBs arent better than the ones you named
by ShyandObese on Jul 16, 2010 7:33 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
GB - good but old in the secondary.
How about that Jolly suspension today… Ouch. He was a good 3-4 D-linemen.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Good but old is true
But we are also good an old. I said GB was questionable not only because of the age but because of the ACL injury to Al Harris. That to me is very significant and if you compound that with age it becomes a pretty big question mark.
And yeah Jolly was real good but this means we will have to see a lot more of Raji who i think most of us hoped would fall to us last year.
"We have three players"
Good point. Picking who’ll succeed as a pro is a crapshoot, but having that much talent improves the odds that at least one of them will turn out to be a superior ball hawking nickel. Jones is the obvious choice at this point. He’s already proved he can play pro ball and seems to be a pretty good cover guy compared to other third-best corners (on their teams) in the league. If he gets beat out, so much the better. We’ll be even deeper. The one most likely to do it is Smith. He’s a second-year player, evidently had a great off-season, and the rookies are, well, rookies. Rookies sometimes do amazing things, but I don’t count on it. I think we’re already better than last year at corner. The only question is, how much better?
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Jul 16, 2010 8:53 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
More on other teams CBs
Agree GBs superiority depends upon Al Harris returning ok from his knee injury; although they have some potential depth, just as the Broncos do – Broncos depth appears to be a little better, unless Pat Lee shows more than he did before his injury.
DAL – While Champ is better than any Dal CB, I believe their first three are better than ours, mainly because of Goodmans liability in run support and who is our third CB??? – plus they drafted CBs in the 4th and 6th rounds this year versus our 5th and 7th round picks.
MIA – Besides V. Davis, they have Sean Smith (started all 16 games as a rookie), Jason and Will Allen (if Will’s knee is ok?), and a 2010 5th round pick. Having two solid starting CBs in just their 2nd year is a real plus.
BALT – Depends upon how Webb and Washington recover from knee injuries. If they are ok, along with Foxworth and Carr, they have four proven players, plus the aging vet Walt Harris.
ATL – They were not good last year, but the addition of Dunta Robinson changes that. They have Grimes (nothing special, but I don’t think Goodman is much better overall), plus young experience in C Owens and C Jackson, plus a 2010 5th round pick. Not saying they are better than the Broncos, but I don’t think a case can be made that they are worse.
Also, I think some other teams have CBs comparable the Broncos. Goodman had a lot of tackles, but that does not prove he is decent in run support! If Goodman was average for a starting CB in run support, than a better case could be made for the Broncos, but besides Champ (who is still great) who will even be decent in run support – maybe Cox, if he gets to play, but that is still a big IF?
Now if we are only talking about coverage, then the Bronco CBs should be somewhere in the top five in the NFL, but CBs need to help against runs too,
I see where your going
run support is key but i don’t think Goodman is really a liability, maybe below average but it wasn’t a glaring weakness that you consistently saw from him.
Dallas I’m glad you agree that Bailey is better than their CB’s. I agree that from our nickel play last year scandrick was better. However you cant tell me that Jenkins is clearly better than Goodman. Granted if i had my choice i would take Jenkins because of his younger age. As for the best CB THIS season its really a toss up, both of them are cover corners although Jenkins was pretty disappointing since he didn’t have that many picks last year (same amount as Goodman) considering he was a 1st rd pick. But just because players were picked high or had a reputation doesn’t warrant that they are better than another player (Goodman). As for the draft picks the boys got a CB from a D2 school who is fast but is a project there 6th rounder is not impressive. Our picks (Cox and Thompson) were projected 2nd rounders but dropped for character concerns. And as our 3rd nickel guy?? Look no further than Miami’s nickel corner from last year Nate Jones.
MIAMI- Sean Smith was a beast i saw him play in college but he was a huge disappointment this season. Yeah he started all year but was he the ballhawk that he was in college? no way he sucks in off coverage and is only good when he can use his size and gets his hands on the reciever i think the fins should move him to safety where his speed wont be such an issue. Who’s gonna play nickel? we took there guy Jones +1 for us. And Allen has been a disappointment he was picked in the 1st rd and he hasn’t proven to be that reliable..he does have potential because his speed but I remember seeing him get beat a lot against the Patriots
BALT- Even if they are 110% healthy no way man. Webb and Carr are very good returners not very good corners. Webb is super fast but not an interception machine by any means as a CB. Carr is barely an ok nickel back there is a reason he was let go by the raiders they tried him opposite to Asumugha and he got burned. Did you watch the games against the raiders a few years back? did you see Fabian Washington play? He is a LIABILITY in run support as is a few other of Baltimore’s corners, Yes he is fast why do you think the raiders got him but the guy is not better than our starters. Foxworth played nickel here in denver..long story short he got cut..remember why?
ATL- They did get better but overall better with Robinson? I dont think so. Owens is really underrated he was well coached in college i think he is a dark horse but i’m biased since Ive seen him an Dwight Lowry. Even so he is to inexperienced. Champ Trumps Robinson and you say Goodman and Grimes are equals ill take your word for it. So what do we have left? A. Smith, N. Jones, P. Cox, and S. Thompson vs. C. Owens, and C. Jackson plus the 5th round pick….the answer seems pretty clear to me.
Now you pointed to run support as our area of weakness and ill do the same with the teams you believe have superior CB’s.
DAL- Jenkins is below average in run support and Scandrick is pitiful, even Newman isnt that good and he’s there #1 guy
MIA- Davis isnt terrible but he’s no where near as good as bailey and Smith is not good in run support.
BALT- They are all terrible at run support
ATL- Robinson is as good in run support as bailey but after that Owens is bad if i remember correctly and i don’t know about grimes
Long story short our CB depth is nothing short of outstanding we are easily top 10 at that position.
by ShyandObese on Jul 17, 2010 12:03 AM MDT up reply actions
You need to think of safetys too when considering the DB corps....I think we are easily Top 3 in the NFL!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
agree
If you include the entire defensive backfield we have a very solid group..one of the top in the league if we play like last year…not to sound creepy but i read your profile an it says you played rugby right on man i just started playing
by ShyandObese on Jul 17, 2010 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Enjoy man...rugby is a great game. You will have a great time!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Absolutely. 5 is my default and 6 happens if McD falls in love with the versatility and sees some special team players in the group. It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out in camp.
The Champ contract situation has a lot to do with it, as well. If we aren’t keeping him next year, then we are going to want some young bodies on our roster to try and fill the void when he departs. That could account for the one extra body on the cornerback depth chart.
I think the biggest reason I see 5 as a default and 6 as a possibility is because I do think we have some versatility at the position. Like you, I think Smith and Cox are pretty safe, given the reports from the OTAs. Jones should have a leg up on Thompson/Carter/Vaughn, as well, because of his special teams ability. He has played special teams his whole career and has put up some respectable numbers doing so. Even if he isn’t the top corner on the team, he could still be valuable to Josh McDaniels because of his versatility.
I completely agree with your post. I’m not sure where that other roster spot (going from 4 CBs to 5 CBs) is going to come from. RB is a possibility. It’s just going to depend on how training camp plays out. I can’t speak for the other positions in as much detail as the cornerback spot, but I do really like having 5 corners on the roster in 2010. If Thompson or Carter or Vaughn (we can’t rule him out, quite yet) show a lot of promise, they might take Jones’ spot if the roster is tight, at that point. We can’t really know, at this point. Another possibility is if there’s a little bit of roster wiggle room because some other positions aren’t as deep and Thompson/Carter/Vaughn show some potential, one of them could make the roster as a 6th corner. The cornerbacks, as a unit, are going to need to be very strong throughout camp in order for McD to do this. However, at this point, I think their best scenario for training camp is making the practice squad.
Again, a lot can change between now and cut day, so this roster talk is purely educated guessing. I’m really interested to see how it plays out, though.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 3:52 PM MDT up reply actions
more on roster numbers
I’ve probably confused everyone by now.
I see the DBs at 9 unless we go with only 4 RBs. We carried 9 DBs last year but the numbers could flip, with 5 CBs this year instead of that many Safeties. The logic behind the new configuration would be positional, but both of the new CBs have attributes that make them hard to discard. Cox is obviously a talented KR (still a need) and could possibly double at dime(?). He could also have value in punt/kick coverage. Jones’ versatility (S, Nickel, KR & STs) makes him too useful to cut.
Barrett stands the best chance of losing his spot to this new configuration unless we go with 10 DBs.
Most of the numbers on the roster are ‘hard’ numbers. We’ll almost certainly be going with at least the following numbers at the following positions:
QB – 3 hard
RB – 4 hard + 1 possible
WR – 5 hard and 6 likely.
TE – 3 hard
OL – 8 – 9 hard.
DL – 6 hard and 7 likely
LB – 7 – 8 hard. At least 8 likely.
DB – At least 9 likely.
I think we can predict the final numbers for most positions as well as the players is most cases. Barring injuries, we should be able to predict about 80 – 90% of the roster before training camp. The challenge is in guessing the last 10 – 20% percent, and we already know where almost all the position battles will be.
no goats, no glory.
I think with TE there may be some room to fudge
I say this because Quinn and Graham are pretty close to the same guy, so if Branson was as disappointind as I remember from the OTA’s they may go with two and not use the position to catch passes. I don’t think it’s likely just an oddball theory.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions
re: Branson
Branson was being touted by McDaniels, and there appears to be something in store for him as an H-back. I’d expect to see Branson used as a blocker to serve the same function as Larsen.
The good news is that we have a backup FB (so to speak), but he plays TE.
I think that Branson was one of the finds in last year’s stellar crop of UDFAs. Don’t be fooled by the fact that he was a PS member, since he came out of a small school and needed a year of seasoning in order to compensate for what his college experience lacked. He has the physical tools besides the receiving ability, so it was merely a question of developing his ability as a blocker and letting him learn the playbook.
As others here have noted, McDaniels’ praise of Branson speaks volumes when one considers that they didn’t attempt to fill the hole left by Scheffler’s departure in a draft heavy in TEs. I’m not claiming that they wouldn’t have taken a player such as Gronkowski if he had slipped to them, but many of the later TEs apparently weren’t interesting enough to offer an improvement upon what we already had in the fold.
My perspective on TEs seems to be at odds with that of many fans since I strongly agree with necessity of blocking ability for the position. However, being able to block doesn’t make the TE useless as a ballhandler/receiver, it merely means that their statistics won’t be as impressive. I’d expect to see all three TEs active for all our games . And that’s pretty much what we saw last year, too (except #8). Quinn’s detractors focused solely on catches but it should be noted that the coaching staff still activated him and the other TEs for nearly every game. TEs are important, among other reasons, because they block the outside pass rusher (OLB34) when he’s positioned too far outside for the OT. That’s an issue for us in the AFC West with all the 3-4 teams. We need to keep three TEs because of all the uses they have.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Jul 18, 2010 4:21 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
ummmm
I didn’t say anything about Branson being on the PS, I’m concerned because the reports on the ota’s were that he wasn’t doing so hot.
My thought then wasn’t to downgrade blocking which I agree is much needed, it’s that McD might not put him in as a passing threat. That would clear up a roster spot, for maybe another WR.
That way I see slightly different roster math from last year. We needed three TE because Scheffler wasn’t really going to step in for Graham. But if we get rid of the passing TE portion of the playbook there’s some more wiggle room because Quinn can step in for Graham.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 18, 2010 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions
more re: Branson
Sorry about the slow response.
I haven’t heard anything so I can’t evaluate the reports you’ve received concerning his performance in OTAs. The only information I’ve received is through the Broncos site: LINK
“You didn’t see him[Branson] last year, but we have very high expectations for him,” McDaniels said. “He’s a guy that has matured and is doing great in our offseason program right now. He did a great job last year and we were fortunate to get him after the draft last year. There were some teams that were even interested in getting him off our practice squad as the season went on, and we were fortunate to keep him. We’re excited about his progress.”
He[McDaniels] said you’re a great blocker but you could also be spread away from the formation and act as a pass-catcher. What are your strengths as a tight end?
“I improved my blocking a whole lot. That was a lot of dedication just getting in the weight room. Passing and catching the ball is what I’ve done my whole life, so that comes kind of naturally to me. I’m just trying to work and improve the best I can.”
On the other hand, he also mentioned you’ve been taking some reps at the fullback spot along with Spencer Larsen. Is that something you’re getting more comfortable with?
“I got used to that last year on the practice squad because I had to do a lot of that stuff. So that’s coming a little easier to me, too, now.”
During the Shanahan years, it simply wasn’t possible that we’d keep anything less than 3 TEs, and we even kept 4 in 2008. McDaniels may not be as TE-happy as Shanahan but it still seems unlikely that we’ll go with less than 3.
It’s hard to take moves in OTAs too seriously but the generally laudatory tone of comments by McDaniels on Branson make it hard to believe that he won’t be on the final roster. And the use of him as a FB makes sense to me, so my reading of the situation is that we’ll get greater usage out of him rather than use his roster spot on another player/position.
I certainly wouldn’t eliminate passing to the TEs. TEs aren’t going to play the same role as in the Shanahan’s offense but they’ll still be targeted. My feeling about the new emphasis on blocking TEs (which is evident in the last two drafts) is that they play such a valuable role as blockers that they’re indispensable.The reason they’re targeted less — IMO — is because there are already 3 WRs in play. Our offense doesn’t need yet another receiver, and we’re missing one blocker (the FB) that many teams would have. The TE is also very well positioned to help with any outside pass rush so his best usage is as a blocker.
We’d probably like to get more utilization from the TEs as pass catchers but last year wasn’t a good barometer for that since Graham didn’t look that good, nor did Schefller, and Quinn has yet to be used as a pass catcher. My guess was that we’d see a whole ‘nother’ tranche of the playbook this season and it will include some more plays using the TEs.
no goats, no glory.
We also have a certain amount of inter-positional flexibility
Nate Jones has played safety in the past as well as corner – while Renaldo Hill started his career at corner and moved to safety. I expect that we’ll have enough players at either slot so that it won’t be required, but if there is a run on injuries at one or the other position, we have people who can make a temporary change. Versatility can be a beautiful thing
Gnothi Seauton
In that case
maybe we’ll just keep the best 10 or 11 secondary candidates, with a proviso that there be no fewer than four corners or safeties.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Doh!
Should have read down a little further. =)
I think there is an echo….echo….echo in here.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Could McBath also step up and play corner?
"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson
Probably in a pinch
I don’t think you’d like to see it happen, but he’s probably got the skills for it. It comes down to practicing the position.
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 6:01 AM MDT up reply actions
Wait!
I haven’t been around enough lately. When did you change your name again?
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 6:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Not to mention that McBath is a converted CB as well!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Nope...came into college as a CB.....
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
But was shifted to S as a Soph I believe. He was a star S for the Red Raiders.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
correct
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 17, 2010 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions
re: "inter-positional flexibility"
Yes, as I’ve said before, Jones is a player who looks like an insignificant pickup till you look at his resume and note his flexibility and utility on STs.
What many fans tend to overlook is how the numbers play out when the active list is decided and assignments are made. Unless you’re a math wiz, it’s hard to get more than a fuzzy picture, whereas the staff have a more concrete feel for the numbers. The lower number for the active list makes versatility even more critical than for the total roster.
We’ve seen this dynamic illustrated with Hochstein, whose level of play wasn’t impressive but his utility in a greater number of roster configurations make him virtually indispensable for the active list. Moreover, there’s an added issue brought in with the eleven man limitation. Players whose primary role is for depth are less valuable than situational players. Jones can do both, so his expected assignment load would include frequent use as a Nickel besides STs and his potential usage as a backup Safety could compensate for shortfalls from injuries. Additionally, it allows the development of younger players who may not be ready to see much action.
The bottom line is that the numbers are always smaller than you expect. Also, this particular fact is often misunderstood as a knock on players’ abilities — usually young players who can’t earn enough assignments to warrant their inclusion on the active list. A good example of this is Chris Baker. He may have been terrific in the closed practices for all we know but his assignment load inevitably led to his being passed over for the active list. And even though his development could have been progressing extremely well, being the 3rd NT and lacking STs utility probably relegated him to being inactive. There’s a profound irony in this, since he could have been surpassing all our expectations for one of the most important positions on our defense yet still have failed to be active. The reaction of many fans during this developmental period can be very critical because they confuse merit with the contingencies of active roster math.
no goats, no glory.
by Colinski on Jul 17, 2010 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
D-Will....
…was only scratching the surface of what he was about to become… he was the next shut down corner in this league….you will never be forgotton Darrent!! …. R.I.P.
by isaac303h on Jul 15, 2010 4:15 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
That's a crock
Darrent Williams was a very talented player and a very likable guy. He might have become a great corner but he was nowhere near that yet. There is always a tendency to put someone who dies tragically on a pedestal. The truth, however, is that he struggled plenty and many fans were posting comments in the last few weeks before he died that he should be yanked as a starter. That was no doubt a little harsh. He clearly had talent and he was still pretty young in his career and would no doubt have improved. Furthermore, he played across from Bailey when Bailey was at his very best, so consequently he was involved in an inordinary number of plays as opponents correctly identified him as the softer side. I think he could indeed have become a very good player but he was nowhere near that at the time of his death.
On a seperate note (not that anyone not affected cares —apparently) but this will unfortunately be one of my last contributions as the annoyance of the site freezing my computer (see my recent comments on a recent horse track thread where it is revealed others experience the same problem). I will be checking the site perhaps once or twice a week to see if the problem has been fixed but if it remains unsolved in say three to four weeks, I will VERY unfortunately be compelled to obtain my Broncos info elsewhere. It totally defies reason that MHR is the ONLY site (within SB Nation and everywhere else) that suffers from this exceedingly frustrating aggrevation.
Hate to see you go.
We need a little annoyance from time to time.
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 6:02 AM MDT up reply actions
I agree with Warmick...
Darrent Williams was a very athletic return guy, and has the potential to be an above average CB…but the potential to be a great, shut down CB? Please.
DWill gets a little bit of the Elway treatment….we like to look back on loved players and inflate what they actually were. D Will was torn apart by good QB’s. Anyone remember the Colts game where Manning and Wayne abused him?
I love D Will, but he was never going to be an HOF CB.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
And...
That game with Whosyourmomma. What did he say, “The midget can’t cover me” I think it was? DWill just got abused that game.
Love DWill as much as the next Bronco fan, but don’t put him in the Hall.
by AllBroncsallday on Jul 16, 2010 9:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Champ was in his all time prime when D-Will was playing.
Champ also had 10 and 8 picks in those two years, which means teams were going after Champ while D-Will was on the field.
That has too mean something. Was D-Will elite? No he was not. But he was above average and one of the best young CBs in the NFL at the time of his murder.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Not so sure teams were going after Champ
The year he got 10 he was targeted only 35 times, if I recall correctly, barely more than twice per game. The amazing thing is he picked off so many passes with so few chances. Meanwhile, DWill was being tested plenty and, though I accepted what I kept hearing, that he was a player, I was puzzled and frustrated that he seemed to get burned so much. In retrospect he played well for his level of experience, but our pass defense suffered because the Broncos lacked a competent veteran to play alongside Champ while he was learning.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Champ circa 2006 was every bit as good as Revis circa 2009. I think most corners would look bad next to that kind of excellence.
D-Will was the next great CB or the like, but he did well for his level of experience, his difficult role opposite the best CB of the decade playing in his prime and what was becoming a poor pass rush with the loss of Pryce and the disappearance of G Warren.
I think it took our Broncos a good two years to get over his loss. We got worse at CB and it clearly affected several of the players for a while.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Sorry, D-Will was NOT the next great CB, but he was a good prospect and an above average CB. Different than a Goodman, but about the same talent level and production.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
That's my take, too
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
In D-Wills defense
He would have looked better if our pass rush had been better. I’m not saying he’s elite or anything but iirc that was the first year our D-line really dropped off.
by Fan in Exile on Jul 17, 2010 7:56 AM MDT up reply actions
I remember Champ saying after his interception against the Pats in the playoffs
that he and D-Will were switching their coverage to confuse the offense. I thought that he said that that is why he was in position to intercept. I don’t know how often these 2 switched but it may have had a bearing on the number of INTs that Champ got.
Very good work on this post, KB.
Sorry I am so late in posting.
Yes, Pmac54
It does seem to be working. I thought the difference was that I always went to the site through the link in my “favorites” (“bookmarks” in some browsers). I noticed the link had a much longer address than just “milehighreport.com.” Once I typed just that into the address bar (and replaced the favorites link), things worked just fine. Anyway, whether that was really the problem or something was actually repaired, I am extremely pleased that things are back to normal.
Thank you for your kind words.
Wow thx KB, and your first sentence is the best way to describe a CB
If you look at Rod Woodson’s “best in the biz” CB’s series, he didn’t put champ in his top 5 because he doesn’t take chances for INT’S (even tho his #2 CB on his list is probably the worst ball-hawking CB in the elite category). But I agree with you. CBs about not getting beat because you are the only guy on the field with the athletic ability to keep up with WR’s. Sure, sometimes you have safety help but honestly I’d rather take a safe CB who rarely gets beat over one who goes for the ball everytime its thrown to his side of the field (Asante Samuel)
Thats my rant tho. Great preview and eat crow Rod Woodson when Champ ends his career better than yours and goes to his 10th pro bowl!!!!
by DBroncs1414 on Jul 15, 2010 4:26 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Thanks. I appreciate the kind words.
I also found that video quite peculiar. I’m glad you mentioned it.
Woodson talked about Asante Samuel, who did have a lot of interceptions, but also gave up a lot of receptions and touchdowns, as well. Call me crazy, but I always thought that the cornerback was supposed to stop the wide receiver, first, and worry about interceptions if the opportunity presents itself.
What makes a cornerback “the best in the biz” is when he is so good at covering the wide receiver that he can also make a play on the ball. With a player like Asante Samuel, sure, it’s nice to get a bunch of interceptions but at what cost? Are you giving up touchdowns, as well, when you are over-aggresive, make a guess, and pounce on a route and then the receiver does a double move and puts 6 on the board? Putting yourself out of position to make an interception doesn’t make you “the best in the biz”. Shutting down the #1 receiver week in and week out, allowing very few (if any) TDs, does.
Champ doesn’t put himself out of position by playing over-aggressively and neither do corners like Revis and Nhamdi. They just happen to be so talented that they can blanket a wide receiver and still make a play on the ball, not one or the other.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 4:47 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yea I totally agree
Maybe taking chances worked for Rod Woodson, but with how many times the ball is pased today and how important it is to stop the pass because of it, its just really not what a CB should be doing, unless he has a scheme which specifically allows it (although I’ve never heard of sucha thing). If a CB can eliminate a QB’s #1 WR, then expect that QB to get less comfortable and possible force a throw to him.
And totally agree on Asante as I said on my first comment. One of my best friends (who is the biggest Eagles fan Ive ever heard of) is upset that now Sheldon Brown, a good cover corner who didnt need Safety help, is gone and now Asante will not get as much safety help as he did in the past. The pass D in Philly could really struggle unless a #2 CB similar to Sheldon Brown develops and/or the pass rush improves. Point is, a top 5 CB shouldnt leave a pass D in a predicament such as this.
Truth is, the top 3 CB’s in the league are quite obvious, and whatever order you put them in is hard to argue against. But to ignore either of them from the top 5 is a disgrace.
Rod Woodson used to get beat quite a bit in his day.
He wasn’t a true “shut-down” corner like Deion Sanders was. And he wasn’t as good a tackler as Bailey has been. And ,of course, CB is an even more difficult position to play these days than it was in the 80’s and 90’s when Rod played. Rod was a play-maker as a CB, and as a Safety, but he also gave up some big plays. I’d rather have a corner that limits the opposing WRs’ catches and plays the run well, rather than a corner who gets beat because he’s always trying for the “big play”.
In case nobody's mentioned it
at the end of your section on Goodman you inadvertently substituted Renaldo Hill’s name. Haven’t finished reading it yet,
but so far an awesome post.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Oops. lol
Thanks for catching that. Fixed. Although, I do think Renaldo Hill is going to have a solid season, as well… :)
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 15, 2010 5:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice work Kentucky...
I gave our corner backs an A.
Bailey and Goodman are stellar and will continue to be solid this coming year. A+.
The depth is solid, and our prospects look promising. B+.
The CB’s are definitely the Broncos defensive strong point. In a pass happy league, it’s hard to underestimate the value of our crew.
The obvious point it seems to me
is that our third best pass defense ranking suggests that our secondary and in particular our corners were pretty good. Which means our three starting corners, because the nickel defender is virtually a starter and certainly a necessity. But in worrying about our nickel starter we should bear in mind that the nickel defender is, virtually by definition, the third best corner on the team. How many third-best corners are elite? Jones, who is apparently fairly capable, presumably is even moreso compared to third-best cornerbacks around the league, so this is another free agent acquisition that probably strengthens us instantly. Hardly anyone has a shutdown nickel in addition to a shutdown starting twosome, but with Jones, a couple of second-year players who could blossom (with one of them, Smith, reputed to have had a dynamite off-season), and two rookies one or more who could be especially precocious, the possibility exists of us having, as early as this season if not by next, a shutdown secondary. (And this a pass-happy league.) So I give us an A- based on present reality, mainly last year’s performance, with the possibility of A+ if anybody steps up to the extent of giving us starting-twosome level play at nickel corner. At any rate it looks like at corner and in the secondary we’re deep and getting deeper. We should never forget that McDaniels’ first coaching job was coaching the secondary.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Jul 15, 2010 8:06 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Great points, spock
I’m excited about the young talent on the team and am pulling mightily for both Smith and Cox to become solid starters (if not more). I’d also echo your comment about McDaniels’ history as a secondary coach. His first love is the QB, but he obviously knows how to spot good horseflesh in a cornerback or safety. It’s important not to lose sight of his propensities.
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 6:07 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks KB really enjoyed reading this
i voted for an A as i think that with Bailey and Goodman alone they can be close to an A alone and with the potential behind them and also with Jones on the roster it just takes it up from a B to an A.
Is it a battle between Thompson and Barett for a roster position. I realise they are different positions but with the flexibility of others in the secondary does it come down to whether they carry an extra safety or an extra corner?
"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson
The team philosophy is the 53 best guys get to stay
Versatility helps immensely, but I think they’ll keep the better of the two, regardless of position, if we already have at least 4 of each (CB and S) on the roster. I think it would be interesting to be present for those discussions, because I think it’s got to be hard to decide who’s better between a CB and a S. Maybe it will come down to whose job is more important to the team — do we still need or want Barrett to cover the other team’s receiving TE threat?
by BroncosBassist on Jul 16, 2010 6:10 AM MDT up reply actions
It could.
Take the nickel corner position for instance. Last year, Barrett and Alphonso Smith both spent time at the position. If it boils down to two players competing for one roster spot, Barrett and Thompson, McD is going to look at the roster numbers at each position, for sure. If there are 5 corners on the roster and only 3 safeties, he’ll probably weigh that into the equation. He’ll also consider which player has more versatility. If Barrett can play special teams, safety and the nickel corner spot while Thompson can only play corner, Barrett will likely get the nod.
There’s a whole lot that goes into it and we’ll have those discussions, in depth, as preseason rolls on.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 16, 2010 9:31 AM MDT up reply actions
Barrett needs to stay
Barrett can cover Gates pretty well and is a special teams freak. He has great potential that i hope we don’t waste it but at the same time Thompson could be the next Dunta Robinson so its tough…i hope both can stay some way
In some ways I wish we hadnt signed Nate Jones
I think he will help our team this season no doubt but i feel like one of our young CB prospects might not make the team because of it.
I empathize
If three of our young corners, out of Smith, Carter, Cox, Thompson and Vaugn, play well, Jones’ presence means probably only two of them make the team. I see at least one and maybe two making the practice squad. At the same time Jones is a guaranteed floor to the cover ability of the nickel corner. I think, though, that we’ll be a little bit better than that. I take seriously what I hear about Smith having a great off-season, and predict that he’ll beat out Jones for the nickel slot.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I agree
I just feel that Thompson has the ability to be a starting Corner so i would hate to see him go on the practice squad and get snatched by some other team. Carter also showed a lot of good signs during the last few games..If its possible I hope we can get 1. Bailey, 2. Goodman, 3. A. Smith, 4. N. Jones, 5. P. Cox, and 6. S. Thompson and If we can retain Barrett as our safety but im starting to doubt that : /
by ShyandObese on Jul 16, 2010 10:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Thompson plus Barrett
would probably mean eleven in the secondary, which you’re right is probably stretching it, but if Thompson plays really well and McD still sees value in Barrett it’s not impossible. If the talent warrants it I think he’d be more willing to make room in the secondary than elsewhere.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I thought we signed Jones because he was also a great ST player.
If you go back at watch Denver ST play in 2009, you will notice the Phonz not playing well on many ST occasions. We couldn’t afford that again in 2010 as it cost us dearly in the Washington game and a few others as well.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
+1
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
True
but i doubt we will cut Alphonso just because he wasn’t great on special teams. Plus i feel that Barrett was arguably one of our best special team players last season. Jones should help on ST and also on the nickel blitzes but he doesnt seem to have much upside…good but not great
by ShyandObese on Jul 17, 2010 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Good points, McG
I thought we signed Jones because he was also a great ST player.
I think that was one of three major points in his favor. McD has pointed out (like most HCs) that if you are close to the bubble, you can win your job with ST play. A second reason is that Jones has an unusual level of talent for blitzing, and Martindale appears, from what many players and coaches have said, heading for a very aggressive defense and being able to add a CB blitz or a package of them might be very helpful. I hope that Nate is able to pass along some pointers on that skill – it would be a very nice thing to have 2-3 CBs with blitzing skills who can also tackle. Obviously, Jones’ abiity at tackling comes into that as well. The third reason is his versatility – whether it’s ST play, blitzing or playing nickel, he’s able to cover multiple roles almost immediately. The fact that part of that versatility includes playing safety makes him even more valuable. He’s not a superstar CB, but with all that he can offer, he may a great pickup for Denver.
My concern with Barrett continutes to be his regular play and his limited role. He only contributed 2 tackles (with one assist) other than his admittedly excellent ST play and I’m not sure how much longer Devner can keep working to develop him with the overall quality of the ‘backup’ (or just situational) players continues to increase. There were several games where we went up against teams with good TEs when Barrett only was in on a couple of plays. While I was happlily shocked at Barrett’s high-quality play against Tony Gonzales and a few others in 2008, he seemed to get less reps in 2009. That could just be McD and Co. getting used to the available matchups – I haven’t heard anything about it. There’s nothing wrong (and a lot right) with having and keeping a guy who has a high level of ST talent (as SD kept Osgood for a few years due to his Pro Bowl/All-Pro level ST work) but as the team seems to be continuing to improve, that might be less important than the kind of verastility that Jones (just as an example) shows among his nickel, ST, blitzing and potential safety work.
Man, this is going to be one fun TC!
Gnothi Seauton
Hum. That sounds interesting.
What makes a good CB blitzer I wonder.
Is it a quick 1st step? Short line speed? Is he knocking the RBs over or is that not really a factor? Does he also have a lot of pass deflections?
I would think most CB blitz calls come from the nickel and attack from the QBs blind side of the field. That is not Champs side right? The CB blitz scares me since Goodman is such a poor tackler and Hill isn’t great either, but it can lead to some huge plays (either way) if called properly.
This should be an interesting skill set to see in action. I can’t think of another CB that is known for his blitzing.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
I don't know of one either
Given what wer’re told abou Matindale’s predilictions, we might get a few chances to find out what makes him good at that. CB blitzs are clearly dangerous to the defense, so Jones has to be able to do some things that aren’t commonly skills for CBs (and the poor tackling by Goodman, and to an extent Hill, tends to reflect a trend among CBs). It should be fun to watch.
Gnothi Seauton
Timing
timing is most important when doing the CB blitzes and Jones has been really successful at it. His speed isn’t amazing but what separates him is his instincts at the line of scrimmage. An example of a player with the same skill( though much better) would be Polumalu. He also times his blitzes well at the line of scrimmage.
Hopefully our younger guys can pick this up from him
Thanks for chiming in
We haven’t heard that much on him – I appreciate getting your perspective on him.
Gnothi Seauton
I see your point
Its just that he has sean taylor like potential which was what intrigues me but as you said we cant just keep developing him for years.
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Sunday, Sep 12, 2010, 11:00 AM MDT
Jacksonville Municipal Stadium
Web Stuff
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Five unanswered preseason questions
- Preseason Confidential: Forsett and Seahawks still have concerns
- This is why we don't wear huge diamond earrings to practice
- The Shutdown Eleven: The most interesting footballers of 2010. #10: LaDainian Tomlinson
- Reports: Cardinals now want to trade Leinart; Giants interested
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