Terrell Owens A low Risk, Potentially High Reward Option for Broncos
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:06 AM MDT
in Strictly My Opinion
321 comments
Wow, it's good to be talking football again.
After a few weeks of NBA Free Agency frenzy, and quite a dud time in the NFL I must say, it's exciting to be back in the thick of Broncos country (though some of me is still watching how the Chicago Bulls fill out their dynamite new roster).
Still, thanks to NBA free agency I am still in the hypothetical state of mind, and one of my favorite things as an avid mock drafter is thinking of new possibilities. Back before free agency started, I made a list of players that could potentially fit with the Broncos. One of those players was wide receiver Terrell Owens, and his name has resurfaced recently as a player who is looking for a team to sign with.
***UPDATE*** Perhaps there is a better low risk, high reward option out there for the Broncos. One that is young, apparently really fast, huge, and one who caught a ton of passes in college.
I just have a couple questions for all those who believe T.O. is a team "cancer":
Have any of us here ever followed closely (and I’m talking as closely as we do the Broncos) which T.O. has been part of? How do you know he’s a team cancer? Because the only way he’s been painted as a team cancer is by ESPN or NFL Network, and it’s mainly because he’s a fun persona to hate (see Sharpie incident).
Spoken from the man himself:
"The teams I’ve been on, if you ask in that locker room how I’ve been as a teammate and as a person, it’s contradictory to what’s been displayed out there."
The main thing is, the only way we have any notion of this guy being a team "cancer" is because he’s been portrayed that way on ESPN. Now, when we hear ESPN talk about how bad the Broncos are, we are all so quick on here to judge them for that. So why should we believe the way they portray TO?
Of course he’s gotten in some faces, and of course he’s gotten mad about not catching balls. Find me a receiver who has yet to do that in the NFL, and you’ll find a guy who doesn’t have that great of a competitive drive.
Is he more diva-ish than most receivers? Alright, I’ll grant that. But please don’t compare him to Tony Scheffler or Jay Cutler. Those were two guys who didn’t give a hoot about anything but putting up inflated stats and getting chicks at the bars after games. They didn’t put the team and winning first.
TO, aside from last year with crappy Buffalo and regardless of what you may think, has always been part of teams that, for the most part—WIN. I could give a list of reasons not to sign the guy, but his history of drops would come WAY before his history with fellow players.
Besides, it’s not like you’re committing a ton of money to this guy for five or six years. You can sign him to a modest one or two year deal at this point so he can finish out his career, and what do you have to lose?
Some don’t seem to get the concept of "Low risk, high reward", which is understandable because it’s not my own opinion piece. It’s the same way I felt about Brady Quinn. Why not bring the guy on? He came cheap, and there’s a high reward factor by bringing him in with little risk involved.
Same is true of TO. You don’t have to commit ton of finances toward this guy, but he will still put up better numbers than more than half of the receivers currently on the roster. Right now, bringing on TO and replacing him with Brandon Stokley is not outside the realm of possibility. Stokley has had concussion problems the last couple of years, and though he was effective last year, I don’t know how effective he will be for the future with his injuries.
Why not bring on Terrell Owens? Here’s more of what he had to say:
"I’ve never been in any trouble. I know right from wrong. I try to make the right choices and judgments when I’m out in the public."
"It’s not like I can’t play," Owens said. "There is some type of influence that they’re making in the minds of teams and owners and GMs."
"I feel like I have enough talent to be a starter on any team," he said. "That’s what’s so frustrating."
T.O. with a chip on his shoulder? Low risk, high reward potential? You can count me in. Not to mention, his name alone forces opponents to game plan differently for our offense. Regardless of how old he is, he’s still TO and he still poses a more than average threat when he’s on the field. He will make everyone that much better, in my opinion.
You can think I’m wrong, but please don’t paint T.O. with ESPN’s brush. We are always quick to hate on them when it’s bad press for the Broncos, so why should we believe the TO hype they’ve created?
"People have listened to a lot of the commentaries throughout a lot of the media outlets, mainly ESPN, that has my character in question as far as things that have happened in the past," Owens said to the Nashville station.
"I may do 99 good things right and if I do one thing wrong, ESPN and the people on there … make it out to be the worst thing ever," he added.
"I think with the years that I’ve had, the last three to four years, I feel like I’ve tried to turn over a new leaf," Owens said. "But still they won’t let go of what I did in the past."
If a team does give him a chance, it will be a chance for Owens to show that he has some good football left in him and that he has made the necessary changes in his attitude. Any team lacking depth at wide receiver should probably take a chance on him for the 2010 season. It may have not worked out in Buffalo, but who has really helped Buffalo in recent memory? Owens may be a missing component for a team to improve.
In just over a year’s time, the Broncos have traded Jay Cutler, Brandon Marshall, Tony Scheffler, and Peyton Hillis. They managed to squander away Brian Dawkins from Philadelphia, which in and of itself should be considered unbelievable. They managed to completely dominate the draft board and manipulate their way to getting Tim Tebow, the most polarizing player in the entire draft. They have managed to somehow have four first round picks in the last two years.
If any of you think the idea of Terrell Owens to the Broncos is out of the realm of possibility and Josh McDaniels hasn’t shot it down, you might find that you’re sorely mistaken.
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IF the price was right..
Why not? The young guys can learn (skills) from him… Just don’t want his attitude rubbing off on them..
Attitude is something you have Rod Smith hanging around for
T.O. would be a better on-field mentor, I agree.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:10 AM MDT up reply actions
My Dad sells ice melt to the Bills,
so he gets tours of the stadium, locker room, meets players etc. And sometimes he takes us along, last year my sister went with him. And they said a PR lady was showing them the locker room, and somebody mentioned T.O. , and according to them the lady was like “Oh Owens! They hate him, they never knew where he is, they can’t get him to come to practice …!”
I just thought that was so funny. Coaches and PR speak louder than his words. With that said he can play, and as long as he behaves, I’m fine with signing him, but I don’t think it’s realistic. And I love that Rod mentors the younger WR’s, he should be a coach, Stokley too when he retires/gets cut.
There’s a phenomenon that I’ve come across in my work before and it goes something like this: a number of companies are burned by a bad apple. Then, another company – knowing full well the risks involved – decides to do business with said bad apple because the promise of certain results are too intriguing.
I heard a mentor describe this phenomenon and he had a theory – which I think is correct: sometimes companies do this as a barometer of where they are really at. If they are respected enough then the bad apple won’t burn them. If they aren’t respected – they’ll get burned.
TO is a bad apple. I see no reason why his actions/behavior will be any different here.
Most people are running around - umbilical cord in hand - looking for a new place to plug in
by SSMT on Jul 21, 2010 3:00 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
How do you explain the 2007 patriots then?
Or Mike Vick’s Eagles? How about the Bengals last year bringing on Cedric Benson?
I’m not saying your theory isn’t correct a lot of the time, but there are plenty of examples against it, and with guys who have legitimately broken the law, no less.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions
I think Moss respected Belichek in ‘07 (I’m not too sure about now?). That was what I was trying to convey. It’s a respect thing. Vick just got out of prison and it was a last ditch effort. I think he respected the Eagles for the opportunity. Once he got some money he now appears to back to his same ol’ shenanigans.
I’d love to think that TO will change his colors, but…
Most people are running around - umbilical cord in hand - looking for a new place to plug in
Yeah, but those players were in crappy situations and changing teams fixed that...
T.O. has been on how many different teams? I can’t believe he keeps signing with crappy teams….the Eagles dispelled that notion with Vick. T.O. is a cancer.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Those are bad examples Sayre
Moss had value, that’s why he was acquired in a trade. Vick had some dude get shot at his birthday this offseason, and Benson was arrested for punching some dude in the face.
When you think you are bigger than the game, the game screws you.
She got away with it for a long time because of talent, but now his talent isn’t enough to sweep his pisspoor demeanor under the rug. Same will happen to BMarsh.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
No
He is saying that in game time ON THE FIELD, TO can give advice when Rod cant.
by SoCalBronco1998 on Jul 21, 2010 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Despite T.O. being a good football player, I could just see people stating that McD contradicts himself and the new team direction by taking a player like T.O. It would not be a good P.R. move. It would just become more headlines, more distractions. I belive that the Broncos want to limit distractions not create more.
I think Josh
just like any Head Coach, would prefer any possible distractions come at him as opposed to any of the players.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
I'd take him,
but there has to be a clause that he goes through bi-weekly therapy sessions with Eddie Mac and Rod Smith. If his attitude was even HALF as good as either of those guys…T.O. (and I’ve said and will say the same about Marshall) could be amazing. But just like ocho-plinko, the attitude lowers his production. I don’t particularly care about what rebuttals are out there, if either of those three got their heads straight and focused on nothing but team football, they would all have the complete package. As it stands now they are all a few chips short of a bag.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
i could use some of that
and i have never even played football.
by Bradoncadonc on Jul 21, 2010 9:27 AM MDT up reply actions
dude
Ochocinco isnt in the game for anything other than entertainment and the win.
All he does is try to win and have fun doing it.
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 21, 2010 8:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Which in no way
refutes my argument….
He is not there to play TEAM ball…he is there to be a class clown, and get paid. Marshall and TO are there to get stats and get paid. But neither of them are there to play WITH a team instead of FOR a team, they are there to play for themselves.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
I would disagree
only because Ochocinco really tries to help team mates. If you haven’t watched the benglas season of hardknocks I recommend it
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 23, 2010 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions
You haven't hear Ochocinco talk about Palmer and Coach Lewis then.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 24, 2010 1:39 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't think attitude is the issue
Not sure he could actually contribute much. The player is often the last person to realize that he doesn’t have it any more (ie Jerry Rice).
Normally I would agree
But TO has always been in top condition and is a far superior athlete than he is given credit. He’s built like a statue and even if he’s not as fast as he once was, he’s still got some speed in those legs.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions
You are right
He is one of the most competitive players out there, and will fight, like he did last season even when he is on a bad team. He is such a competitor that when his team struggles, he gets pissed, as an athlete, I can see where he’s coming from.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:39 PM MDT up reply actions
No thanks. Keeping him means no space for another developing receiver. We don’t need the hassle of the media needing to look for more stories at training camp than we’ll already have with the Tebow following.
And if development of the offense requires 2 seasons for most players, no sense in using him for 6 games until he gets bored with Kyle.
by dr.mort on Jul 21, 2010 8:19 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
This
We already have Gaffney to mentor the young guys on the field and to help them get accustomed to the system.
Adding another receiver who will only be around for a couple years and doesn’t bring any veteran leadership will just prevent the younger guys from taking reps. The rookies need the experience in the system so they can excel by year 2
"It's a little bit of us against the world. It will be wonderful when I prove him right."
www.worthingtonjohn.com
Excellent points Dr.mort and Worthington...I agree completely!
Even if he has “changed his ways”, I still think it flies in the face of everything McD values in a player. I think the talent of our rookies will result in them being productive this year….kinda like Austin Collie last year.
I also don’t believe he will work cheap.
I don’t hate the guy, I just don’t respect him enough to support this move. I always remember him getting in McNabb or Romo’s faces (ala Marshall getting in KM’s face last year) and I just don’t want that in Denver.
Just my 2 cents :)
Future 2010 MHR Fantasy Football Champion! ;)
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
"I also don't believe he will work cheap."
He doesn’t have any other options at this point. You sign him now, it might be a bad move for his agent b/c maybe a team will over pay if injuries arise, but if you sign him now, he comes a lot cheaper than you would probably think.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:16 AM MDT up reply actions
Who exactly?
Matthew Willis? I mean, that’s cool if you like the guy, and he’s a Bronco so I do too, but I’m not giving up a chance to get Owens at a reasonable price to have Matt Willis stick around when he will be on the FA heap all season long.
We have been talking about keeping 7 WR’s all offseason long. I’d say Gaffney, Royal, Thomas, Decker, Owens, McKinley, and any of Lloyd, Stokley, or Willis would suffice.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:15 AM MDT up reply actions
Count me in the Dr. Mort camp
I don’t think he would necessarily be a cancer, but the Broncos just don’t need him. We saw what Eddie Royal could do when BMarsh was out. Why do the Broncos need TO to take away plays from Royal/BayBay/Decker/Gaffney and the rest? Who gets cut if the Broncos pick up TO. If someone gets injured, maybe we can talk again then.
think this is the best reason why not
Not only for recievers, but there are also a bevvy of young linebackers, and the broncos have a more than a few good safeties, so getting owens means bye bye to someone like willis or syd’quan thompson, kirlew, i’d hate to see useful special teams players go to make space for owens when he’s only good for so much, and the broncos have had special teams problems the last few years. In the 6-0 start special teams were great, so we need those hungry youngsters there.
I have been watching his show on VH1, the last few weeks.
To me, he doesn’t seem like he wants to play football, anymore. He seems content to be a TV star and do a bit on the OchoCinco VH1 show, as well. I’m not sure he has that drive, anymore, at least from the episodes I saw of him. Is he done with football? I don’t think he’ll admit it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he is. Plus, his last season in Buffalo was just awful. That had a lot to do with the team around him, sure, but he did promise that town a playoff berth. If you’re going to make a promise like that, you better come through.
He went to the Bengals to meet with them and they didn’t seem to want him, even after Ocho campaigned for him. He may come to Denver, I don’t know. At this point, however, I say no.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
I agree with some of what you said
For him to be essentially defending himself to the point that he has, I would find it hard to believe if he didn’t want to play football anymore. Yeah he’s doing the TV show, and he’s doing Pro’s vs. Joes, but that’s just to keep his name out there. His agent has just as much to do with that as TO does.
As for him predicting playoffs, I don’t have a problem with that. If you join a team, you better at least THINK you can make the playoffs. Saying it wasn’t the smartest thing, but believing it is a GREAT thing, especially given the state of the Buffalo franchise.
The Bengals brought him in for a workout, and he probably would have signed there, but they got a younger guy in Antonio Bryant. I’m not saying he’s a lock to come here, but I won’t rule it out either.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
After giving it some more thought, I think I’m slowly boarding your train of thought. If we can get him on the cheap, then I think we could give him a shot. If we could get a contract with tons and tons of escalators, then it may be worth pursuing. There’s no harm in bringing him to camp for some pocket change and telling him “hey, you have to make the team and score X number of touchdowns to get paid the money you want”.
Whether or not he goes for something like that is another story, in itself.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
by kentuckybronco on Jul 21, 2010 10:59 AM MDT up reply actions
Agreed completely
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
ABSOLUTELY NOT!
I do not want TO on this roster. How many times did we see him melt down on the sidelines when a QB didn’t get him the ball? Talk to McNabb, Garcia etc. about what he does. Denver has had enough events happen the past two years that we don’t need another distraction. They got rid of Marshall over some of the same things. At least TO is not breaking laws off the field.
Sayre, I like you and you called the Tebow pick, but I can’t agree with you on this one.
fader nation is a conquered nation
Jerry Jones is Al Davis with a smile!
CHICAGO...Where Quaterbacks' careers go to die!
by mdierk on Jul 21, 2010 8:32 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
If he becomes a distraction
Then you cut him, and one of the receivers we let go of will sure enough be there in the free agent pool if/when we do. He’s not at a point in his career anymore where he can or will complain about being the featured player in an offense. He even said recently he’d be happy being a No. 2 receiver in an offense. If we want to ease along Thomas and Decker, forcing them into action isn’t the greatest plan, but getting them on the same field with TO could be very beneficial.
I don’t care about his days in SF and Philly as far as Garcia and McNabb go. TO sold out for the Eagles, playing in the super bowl with a broken ankle. He was uber productive and young when with San Fran, and he has clearly matured since those days.
Marshall was gotten rid of because he’s overrated, an injury risk, his selling price would never be higher, and he didn’t want to be a Bronco.
I’m not saying this is a sure thing, but to rule it out isn’t any more sensible.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:22 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sayre sorry
But this is a Shanny move, hey lets take a flyer on this guy and them cut him if he isn’t a good soldier.
So what if he becomes a bad soldier mid-season, after McD lets go a potential talent and already worked TO into the game plans.
Sorry, but I think TO has already proven he can’t maintain a good/team attitude
by broncos314 on Jul 21, 2010 9:25 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
We will see
It’s a Shanny move if you overpay and give up significant money that should be used elsewhere, and I wouldn’t sign TO for more than 3 or 4 million per season. But a two year, 8 million dollar deal with the first year guaranteed for a guy with his resume on the field is quite enticing seeing as we have a need for his services.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:29 AM MDT up reply actions
SB, I always appreciate what you have to say, most of the time I agree, BUT
This would be a completely bonehead thing to do. TO has one best friend and thats TO. He HAS to be the center of attention, his ego demands it. He hasn’t learned from his antics with Jeff Garcia, the media did’nt invent him calling his QB gay, He got along SO well with Donovan McNabb, had no issues at all with Tony Romo. Then he plays the same game with Buffalo, only his production fell off. He was able to be the ultimate “ME” guy until the TDs declined. McD has ALWAYS stated he wants, tough, smart, team oriented guys, how does TO fit into that mold? (Cheap or not) How can we cut a team oriented guy that has worked his ass off this offseason, and then bring in the older version of Brandon Marshall? You and I both know that by week 6 or so, he has a public spat with KO. Kyle need to have his focus on playing QB, not baby sitter to an egotist. Sorry, I adamently disagree with bringing in TO.
by RichardC on Jul 21, 2010 11:25 AM MDT up reply actions 6 recs
If our management gets any whiff of that
He’s gone. THere’s a huge difference between what I’m suggesting and what he’s done in the past. In the past, he’s made a LOT of money, and teams were committed to him financially. The Broncos don’t have to commit a ton to him financially, and he will consistently be on the coaches radar.
If Belicheck can handle Randy Moss, who is on the same level if not worse than TO, then McDaniels can handle TO. Heck, if McDaniels can handle Marshall for two years, he can certainly handle TO, who is too old and past his prime to demand attention. If he demanded to be the center of attention, I find it hard to believe he’d sign in a market like Buffalo.
That’s fine if you disagree with bringing in TO, it’s just a suggestion. HOWEVER, to compare him personality wise to Brandon Marshall is inaccurate. TO has caused problems in the past, I’m not disagreeing there. I have hated the guy in the past, and he’s said/done some dumb stuff. But he doesn’t get in trouble with the league, even at his worst. The Eagles were fed up with him, yes, but since he was cut by the Cowboys he’s a different person.
Does he demand attention? Yes, but that’s fine. The Broncos will laugh all the way to the bank, and if he flops it was a minor investment and a test run.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions
If we did sign him
make sure you have a years supply of preparation H. Beside that condesending remark, what message does that send the team, performance above all else? Isn’t that what got Shanny into trouble?
YES
But Shanahan overpaid and gave up significant assets elsewhere to make it happen. This is a LOW COST MOVE potentially, and if not, then you don’t even consider it.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 12:02 PM MDT up reply actions
My reply to low cost..
No team is spending for that ‘extra’ Teams are getting their draft picks signed then will wait on the CBA.
Why do you think that hadly any RFA’s have been extended?
NAH, save that extra cash for Doom.
by DLMyers on Jul 21, 2010 8:00 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
T.O. gets in trouble with his coaches and teammates
Moss and BM have problems – but much less with teammates and coaches. Look at the players T.O. has had trouble with: Garcia, McNabb, Romo; plus lots of coaches. Moss displayed lack of effort at times working with the Raiders QBs who were ?? BM wanted more money and behaved badly – but so far just with one team – and I don’t remember him getting in media fights with his QB. Lets see, T.O. did that with his first team, with his second team, with his third team, then could not get a big paycheck – so he behaved a little better (not well though) during his year with Buffalo – and he is a different person? I guess so, in your mind, but not in reality.
Is there any athlete in the world in a team sport, who has been a more consistent example of being the “I” in the statement “there is no I in the word team”. On a scale of 1-10, where 1 is a pure team player and 10 is a player who only thinks of himself, who would rate higher than T.O. in any single year from 2003-2008; perhaps in 2009 T.O. was only in the top 10 – a slight decline/change, but not as fast as his talent is declining.
by cohiker on Jul 21, 2010 6:25 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely Not
If he’s such a good guy and team mate, why did Jerry Jones figure he was better off without him? And tell me Rod Smith EVER complained about not getting enough balls thrown his way. Is Rod Smith not a competitor? I reject that whole concept fully that any good wide recieveer is a diva type because of competitiveness.
Brandon Stokely has given tremendously to this team and this community. But, you would cut him for a years worth of distractions?
Owens is Owens and his reputation is far more than what ESPN of NFL.com can manufacture. Teams are staying away from him for one reason and one reason only. Owners talk to owners and GMS talk to GMS and coaches talk to coaches.
The idea that the media can obliterate such a good player is nonsense. Total nonsense. Every team that has let him go .. let him go from personal knowlege, not media creations.
On top of that hes slower, doesnt catch that high a percentage of balls and hes in it for himself period. We didnt call BM a baby TO for nothing.
Horrible idea all the way through. Let Baybay sneak up on teams early and forve teams to game plan for HIM later. Let them try to game p[an for Royal , Decker and Thomas .. forget this nonsense.
"My team's on the floor"
Gene Hackman - Hoosiers
by AlanC11 on Jul 21, 2010 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Man, it's like you people here can't think players can change
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
I dont care if he can change actually
Because the liklihood of his becoming any more profuctive in this system than any of the current recievers we have is minimal.
In the absence of any reasonable demonstration he has, in fact, chabged, it is the opposite of what Sayer is saying it is. It would be a high risk move with a very low possibility of reward on the end. And we would have to cut a younger reciever with potential in order to add him or a proven veteran who has contributed a lot to this team both on and off the field.
There is no reason to do this and .. in the end it won’t be done. McDaniels has already shown the emphasis he places on high character LEADERS. Owens has never shown him self to be either.
"My team's on the floor"
Gene Hackman - Hoosiers
The reasonable demonstration that he has changed
Was shown last season, playing for a bad team, yet he didn’t pull the old T.O. he showed he would just show up, play and keep his mouth shut.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 2:25 PM MDT up reply actions
And yet
Desperate as Buffalo is for talent, they didnt bring him back. Which should tell you, iehter he didnt contribut to the team or he no longer has the talent to make a difference.
Either way, the answer is still no.
"My team's on the floor"
Gene Hackman - Hoosiers
by AlanC11 on Jul 21, 2010 3:43 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
+1 and rec'd!
'The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits.'
-- Albert Einstein
No I don't think so,
While TO may be able to still play, bringing him into to the fold woudl deny someone else a spot on team. The Broncos are trying to build for long term success and that just doesn’t fit the plan at all. We have a load of talent at WR that needs to play to develop, signing TO would prevent that IMO.
"I cannot give you a formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: Try to please everybody."
That's fine with me
Because he’s better than a vast majority of vets we have on this team, if not all of them. He’s better than Lloyd, Stokley, and Willis, all of whom are on the bubble.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions
What about
What about Gaffney and Royal, granted Royal didn’t perform well last year but it was only his second year and he had quite a good firts year. They are vets too.
Plus, evening though their rookies, I certainly wouldn’t discount the “potential” of Decker and ’BAY"
And I don't
As I’ve stated numerous times, if our WR corps stays as is, I will be happy to ecstatic. I love the players we picked up through the draft, but I’m far but sold on the depth we have. Royal has been injured both years he’s been in the league, and despite his fan favoritism, he needs someone to help take pressure off of him. In the future, we hope Thomas and Decker will do that, but for right now, for the present, we don’t have that.
Gaffney was a #4 or 5 receiver on the Pats’ undefeated team. He’s good, but is he a #1?
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:32 AM MDT up reply actions
Honestly Sayre
I think the “true #1” is a term that can be used loosley.
foe example the “star” power of Randy Moss could make him the #1 receiver for NE, however I would argue that Welker may hold that spot.
In an offense like the colts Wayne may be the “true” number 1 however Manning spreads the ball around so much does it really matter? same with New Orleans.
In terms of a #1
I’m not talking about a guy who is your “go-to” guy, I’m talking about a guy who takes pressure off of all the other receivers. You could argue that in favor of either Moss or Welker.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 10:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Well
I would consider them one in the same, becasue if that is your go-to guy, my assumption is it would also be the guy a team would want to scheme for to force the offense to adjust.
Basically
What I’m saying is, I don’t think we need a guy to lead the league in targets like Brandon Marshall did. Marshall, as good a possession receiver as he was, either didn’t create for other players or we did not have anyone good enough to create for themselves even though marshall was double teamed. We DO need a guy to take pressure off. I think Decker and Thomas can do that, but probably not right away.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions
NO to TO
Five years ago TO was high risk – high reward. Now, he is high risk, low reward.
TOs spats with Garcia, McNabb and Romo are not media creations. TO blaming ESPN further proves his inability to accept responsibility for past actions. It is always someone else’s fault.
We have two first round caliber rookies in Decker and Thomas. I don’t want a primadonna receiver taking their reps. Just say NO to TO.
by ocbroncomaniac on Jul 21, 2010 2:55 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
I think
gaffney was used in what would be defined as the #2 slot even though welker was a #2
lets say x y and z are your slots 12 and3 gaffney rotated around the #2 putting welker in the slot gaffney did well in his role in NE
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Jul 21, 2010 8:48 PM MDT up reply actions
I'd Don't Believe That
He’s not the player he once was. The guy is 36 with falling stats, four former teams, and three quarterbacks he’s publicly burned.
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."
by Alan_Smithee on Jul 21, 2010 9:45 AM MDT up reply actions
His falling stats are from playing in Buffalo
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Buffalo
Was 7-9 without TO and 6-10 with him, vurtually the same team. That arguement doesn’t cut it
I would hardly call your leading receiver the reason you lost
Oh wait, according to you, Marshall was the reason we didn’t make the playoffs.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Whatever
You still haven’t answered the question, how does a receiver who you support soooo much, go to an awful team and not even make the same record the awful team had the year before.
So tell me if that is yoyur arguement how does TO make Denver better.
Sorry maxwell but you aren’t bringing it
He makes it better by forcing double coverage
He makes it better because he can make plays down field, he makes it better because the light is on him not on the other players, thus allowing them to make plays.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Well can you name one other receiver Buffalo has?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Okay so you expect great play from players who aren't even good
And you blame T.O. that the receiving stunk?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 1:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Just throwing this out there
but Lee Evans is a great receiver, he’s the best you’ve never heard of because he’s consistent quiet and on a crap team. You can argue about his lack of stats but truth is it’s hard to pull big numbers when you’re the only real receiver on the team. TO isn’t what he used to be but he’s still above average. You’re argument about TO not helping them get better is ridiculous at best, so you think if we somehow got Andre Johnson and went 7-9 it would all be his fault? This is a team sport that is won by a team. I don’t think he made them worse I just think he didn’t make them any better, sure he led the team in receptions but his presence didn’t help Lee Evans numbers at all, so they parted ways.
"And on the 8th day, God created Tim Tebow. And He saw that it was good. And He said, "I can now retire. Go forth and make Touchdowns through Running and Passing."
-Harvey J. Neptune
I can't believe people haven't heard of Lee Evans
Evans is a quality receiver. And his play actually fell off last year with Owens on the team. The same arguments were made last year that Owens will force double coverage and the spot light will be on him so Evans will have a huge year. Nope. Evans as well as that whole team regressed with Owens on it. Is that all Owens fault? No, but it doesn’t speak well for him either. Especially combined with the fact that the Cowboys improved last season after dumping TO. Looked like a clear case of addition by subtraction to me.
The evidence seems to point to TO not being a good presence in the locker room. McD finally has a squad full of team first players who are all on board. It would be too risky to jeopardize that by signing TO.
Give the youngsters a chance. Just because they haven’t produced at this level yet doesn’t mean they won’t. Players have breakout seasons all the time. All that they needed was a chance. TO would take that chance away from someone.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by c_style on Jul 21, 2010 10:55 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
And BTW
Using that same arguement, exactly how well did that work when Brandon Marshall was on the team.
8-8, 7-9?
So your argument is that in the NFL
You don’t need a great receiver, just take a bunch of average guys, and they will be better. Not sure where that mentality comes from, but you’d have to ask Montana, Manning, Marino, Young, or most of the greats, and they’d tell you their success hinged on great receivers.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions
You are the one
That keeps calling them average? not me I believe they will show better than average frankly
Okay key phrase:
I believe they will show better than average frankly
There are two parts, the first is your opinion, expressed by
I believeand the second part is a future prediction based on what? Cause their history sure doesn’t point to any of them, outside of Royal, having any kind of good season.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 1:37 PM MDT up reply actions
Huh?
He makes it better by forcing double coverage
Owens wasn’t even drawing double coverage in Dallas.
The prophet Elijah told Ahab that the dogs would lick his blood, and so it came to pass, as you would imagine, since only the successful prophets are remembered.
Dude
Give that argument up. He wasn’t the reason they decreased in victories. The trading of Jason Peters, their horrid QB situation, the decline from Lynch, their terrible line, their horrid defense had more to do with it than TO so seriously, that’s not a legit argument at all.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ok
Sayre, so I do like alot of what you have to say but in this case you seem to be sitting on a pedal stoll.
It is a bad argument
Lets take a look at the Bills:
- In 2009 they faced a tougher schedule then they did in 2008.
- In 2009 they had 3 different quarterbacks start at least one game, in 2008, Trent Edwards started almost the whole season, and provided stability at quarterback, something that was lacking 2009.
- In 2009 they had a worse running game then they had in 2008, with Fred Jackson taking Marshawn Lynch’s place, and Lynch struggle to even fulfill the #2 back spot.
- In the passing game, a number of players who performed well l in 2008 could get the same production in 2009. Lee Evens and Josh Reed both struggled. Which is completely understandable, any team that switches it’s quarterbacks around like Buffalo did is going to struggle in the passing game, look at Cleveland, look at St. Louis. How can you expect a team to do better when there is no stability.
So lets review:
- 2009, the quarterbacks struggled
- 2009, they played better opponents
- 2009, they lost a number of defensive players that were strong in 2008
So in 2009, the team obviously struggled for reasons other then T.O.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I guess if you place all the blame on the acquisition of Terrell Owens, No, he didn’t really help all that much.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I didn't balme him
I merely stated that the value you and maxwell seem to place on him and what he brings to the table as this “star” recevier didn’t show up as more in the wins column.
All teams can struggle for a variety of reasons, but your argument seems to be centered around how TO can help improve the broncos, and somehow that to me would correlate into additional wins, correct? and if that wouldn’t be the case why bring him on at all?
It's just simply
putting him on a better team with a better quarterback who has better protection. And a better defense, and better coaching offensively, and a system more tailored to your talents.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:42 PM MDT up reply actions
And that wouldn't apply to denver's
Current receiving corps?
Better quarterback,better protection ,better defense, better coach.
So which is it?
If it doesn’t rest on one players shoulders, shouldn’t the receivers we have be better.
I am sorry but I feel the issue with the broncos prior to McD, was to fit in 2 or 3 “stars” on the team and just plug the rest of the team with role players, and now with McD I see him trying to have a more balanced attack which I for one love, but absolutely do not think that is tailored towards TO’s talents
Like the Cowboys?
Oh, wait.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
May not have translated to the Super Bowl
but how often were the Cowboys NOT in the playoffs when TO was there? How bout the Eagles? How about the 49ers? Nice try, though.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:49 PM MDT up reply actions
And the fact that the Cowboys improved after dumping TO means nothing?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
That could be the case for Andre Johnson
He’s been there while, but only one winning season, yet he’s possible the best in the league. What receiver does put wins up, cause from your definition Moss doesn’t count, Welker doesn’t count, Fitz doesn’t count, Calvin Johnson doesn’t count, Marshall doesn’t count. Well that eliminates close to the top 10 receivers in the league.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions
Again you are just
twisting what i say, but I will say this with regards to NE, out of all the receivers you mentioned, have the most balanced attack.
So you'd take Llyod over T.O.
Cause we have plenty of veterans who aren’t playing well to cut.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Nope
The guy simply doesn’t fit what seems to be the archetype of the typical player here. It’s well-known that if one thing’s consistent about TO, it’s that it’s all about TO.
I don’t care what he says (and he’s very convincing and seems oh-so-sincere while he’s saying it) it’s what he does, and it’s way beyond “hype”.
There’s too much bad history associated with and around TO. I’ve learned over the years that where there’s smoke, there’s fire.
by AllBroncsallday on Jul 21, 2010 9:03 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Fair enough
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:24 AM MDT up reply actions
I can't imagine it working in Denver
It is apparent that your coach believes team unity is the keystone to success.
T.O. said this about himself:
I think with the years that I’ve had, the last three to four years, I feel like I’ve tried to turn over a new leaf," Owens said. “But still they won’t let go of what I did in the past.”
This is an admission that he was a bad teammate. Whether or not he has improved is only told by his actions rather than his words. I have a very difficult time believing McDaniels thinks one year of atonement in Buffalo makes T.O. worth the risk. Look how Dallas improved with his absence.
Signing T.O. to foster team unity? High risk- low reward.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Jul 21, 2010 9:09 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Good points, llv
Never mind ESPN – talk to his coaches and quarterbacks. The video of him acting out on the field has nothing to do with a sports channel and a lot to do with his attitude and actions. I’m also unimpressed by his talk – Buffalo couldn’t wait to get rid of him. That doesn’t sound like he’s changed.
WR is over-stuffed right now. We’re going to have to make some hard decisions on who can and can’t stay, and using PUP will only prolong the problem. McDaniels is building for the long haul. TO is exactly the player that he doesn’t want or have room for. Sorry about that, but that’s how I see it.
Gnothi Seauton
by Doc Bear on Jul 21, 2010 10:10 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
High Risk, Low Reward...Just Say No
A key part of McDaniel’s core philosophy is a “team first” mentality. Having T.O. on the team is the equivalent of having the t*rd in the punchbowl.
2003 – Undermines the 49ers locker room with comments made in a Playboy interview and bad mouthing his quarterback.
2004 – Contract stink with the 49ers.
2005 – Contract stink with the Eagles.
2005 – Bad mouthed his quarterback for not throwing to him enough.
2005 – Fight with a fellow player outside the locker room.
2005 – His mouth earned him a four game suspension and then deactivated.
2005 – Later he admits in his autobiography that his ‘apology’ for his behavior was not sincere.
2006 – Locker room tirade where he said he should have been thrown to more.
2006 – Police report he attempted to commit suicide with an overdose of painkillers.
2006 – $35,000 fine from the league for the spitting incident.
2007 – Says he didn’t learn anything from Bill Parcells
2008 – Had a falling out with his Quarterback, Romo this time, for not throwing to him enough.
2009 – Unceremoniously released by the Dallas Cowboys.
Performance:
2007 – 15 touchdowns
2008 – 10 touchdowns
2009 – 5 touchdowns
2007 – 1355 yards
2008 – 1052 yards
2009 – 829 yards
2007 – 81 receptions
2008 – 69 receptions
2009 – 55 receptions
If he continues his decline at the same rate, his 2010 season will look like 3 touchdowns, 550 yards, and 40 receptions. I doubt that would be much better than whoever he replaced on the field, perhaps worse. And…it would be taking time from some good rookie prospects.
In a nutshell…his production has declined to ‘average’ at best and, and 36, will continue to decline. He’s shown, repeatedly, that he doesn’t deal well when the ball doesn’t go his way, he undermines his quarterbacks, and the Broncos are a team that wants to spread the ball around.
IMO, T.O. is a very bad fit for the Broncos.
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."
by Alan_Smithee on Jul 21, 2010 9:14 AM MDT reply actions 15 recs
Please factor in the QB situations
Dallas has a Pro Bowler, Buffalo has a bunch of guys who should be playing in Canada. Of course it was he who chose to join them, but the decline in production from 08-09 has just as much to do with the horrendous excuse for a football team that was the 2009 Buffalo Bills as it does TO, if not far worse.
For the record, you may be right. He may be a bad fit, but we don’t know that because we are one of the few teams who hasn’t been ruled out yet.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions
decline in production doesn't worry or matter to me. It is how he deals with publicity and his teammates and his role on the team.
Saying he is willing to be a #2 receiver still says to me that it’s about TO and not the team. He still wants to be the 2nd look to take advantage of the #1 getting double teamed. When he comes out and says I’ll be a #4 or a Special Teamer because I want to help a team in any way I can then I’ll be impressed.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 21, 2010 11:44 AM MDT up reply actions
Agreed
Look who he to work with in Buffalo, nothing.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Sayre-
With his history regarding QB/WR relationships, and our overall split community on KO, I really think this is a bad idea. No the only reason I tink so, either.
The Broncos get rid of one Headache Receiver to sign another?
After Brandon Marshall, I really don’t see Josh McD wanting anything to do with TO, talent or no. And as others have pointed out hes on the downside and doesn’t even look that interested in playing any more.
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers/Lakers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants/Warriors country, and damned proud of it.
They are not comparable off the field
Or in the locker room.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions
Definitely not comparible
Brandon Marshall puts up more numbers, doesn’t dis his teammates and has several good years left in him.
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."
by Alan_Smithee on Jul 21, 2010 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions
All but one of those is true
Marshall did dis his teammates by quitting on us multiple times. These two are only comparable in their style of play, and Marshall will NEVER be as good on the field as TO was. Ever. That said, Marshall is obviously better now and has more good years left in him, but you make it sound like I’m suggesting we sign this guy to a long term deal.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions
They both drop a lot of balls. They are comparable in that way. I think one year they both almost led the league in drops.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 21, 2010 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
This is true
and the biggest knock on TO in my book
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Compared to who
Royal? He had a 47% catch rate, not real great for a guy we want to be #1, or even #2.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions
What was his catch rate his rookie year?
A remarkable 70%. That must not count though I guess.
From all accounts I’ve heard I expect Royal to be in the slot, not as a #1 or #2.
Gaffney will hold down the #1 spot until Thomas takes it over. Jabar may not be an ideal #1 but he’s shown he can be a capable stop gap (week 17 for example) while Thomas gets his feet wet.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
I agree
And while he be okay at a stop gap, I don’t expect our passing offense to be much better, or even as good as it was last season, unless someone really elevates their play, because just judging from what we know, the past, none of these guys will scare any defense.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 12:36 AM MDT up reply actions
You can judge from past performance only but it's not really a good measure when you have a bunch of young potential
These young players will get a chance to step up. That’s all good/great players need is that chance. I agree, we can’t sit here and say we’re for sure set at WR but I have faith that with the amount of young talent we have at this position someone is going to break out (and possibly 2 or 3).
The fact that none of these guys scare anyone (yet) will work to our advantage.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
Gaffney, Lloyd and Stokley aren't young guys
And Royal really doesn’t need much more development, and if he does, he must be struggling more then we know. So that leaves just our rookies who are unproven, and while I’m sure they will play well, they aren’t in situation like Bryant has in Dallas where he is surrounded by talent, he can enter slowly, run a few snaps just to help learn and maybe make a few catches, and by week 6 or 7, he’ll be stepping up, plus he has Tony Romo. Ours may be pressed into service before their injures are completely rested, before they are ready, and thus we may struggle in the passing game till late in the season. I am really looking forward to what these guys can do in 2011 or 2012, but I’m a bit scared to have our two rookies be the guys we need to step up and win games for us.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 1:10 AM MDT up reply actions
I know that our vets aren't young guys
I’m obviously not talking about Gaff, Stokely, and Lloyd.
I’m saying that out of our 4 rookies, 1 sophomore, and 2 third year players someone is going to break out and maybe several of them will. My whole point is they are unproven but now will be tested. To you it seems unproven means they will suck. It’s not money in the bank, which I see makes you nervous, but have a little faith that out of all of these young WR prospects a couple will step up. They will get their chances to that’s for sure.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
I have faith
But I just don’t want our entire offense to rely on our rookies being our best players.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 1:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I understand and agree
But this thought will make us feel better:
They won’t be rookies forever :-)
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
And that is what brings me much joy
That’s why I’m more excited for 2011 and 2012 then I am for 2010.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 2:06 AM MDT up reply actions
"They won’t be rookies forever"
But they will be this year. If one or more give us veteran-level performance right out of the box that would be incredibly amazing, but the vast majority don’t. However, I expect all of our receivers, vets and rooks alike, will be relatively better this year thanks to Orton being in his second year in the system. That plus the likelihood of Royal bouncing back big suggests our passing attack will be better than last year’s even if Thomas (especially) and Decker do need time to learn and get acclimated to the pro game.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Sure but my point about him not being McDaniels' type of guy
still stands. I don’t see the match.
Yes, TO had an amazing career, and Baby TO, Marshall, will be lucky to have anything close to it. But it doesn’t change the fact that they are both perceived to cause headaches in their own way. I don’t see him fitting.
Hey if you’re right and I’m proven wrong and they give him a shot and he still has something, then I’ll be happily wrong.
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers/Lakers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants/Warriors country, and damned proud of it.
It depends
McDaniels, as hard nosed as he is, still has had the priviledge of working with a “washed up” receiver in Randy Moss in New England. His offensive system made Moss one of the most prosperous receivers in the league. He dominated. He set records.
Am I saying TO will do that? No, but McDaniels can handle him as long as he’s not talking bad about the organization, quitting on the team, not playing through slight injuries, not punting balls in practice, not demanding a new contract.
As for McD’s type of player, at this point in his career, TO is a smart guy who’s played for Bill Parcells, and we are a branch off of that tree. Though it’s not talked about much, TO is a smart player and obviously by his physical appearance and athleticism, he is a very hard worker. As far as team oriented? That could be seriously questioned based on what he’s done in the past, but he could come in here and make significant contributions.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Why would
The WR starved eagles, and a cowboys team who will take anyone, ie Pacman Jones, release such a talented, classy, great locker room guy from their team.
Could it be a conspiacy/
Sorry, but I cannot believe that anyone would want/or defened the possability of a player like this on their team after his past record. Really?
by broncos314 on Jul 21, 2010 9:22 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
So, Sayre
Are you thinking that TO to the Broncos would be a Moss to the Patriots type maneuver?
I will admit that his current situation has sobered him a little and that he has matured, but how much of that is a Drew Rosenhaus deduced PR agenda?
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
by KaptainKirk on Jul 21, 2010 9:32 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely
That’s a great comparison, Kirk. Low risk, high reward. That’s how the Pats have operated, and it’s worked. I think Drew Rosenhaus is the real team cancer. That guy is a snake, and I don’t like him one bit. But he’s made TO a lot of money I guess…
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:33 AM MDT up reply actions
McD did it before
Why not again. Moss was a pain in the butt in Oakland, always complaining.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Moss was 30 when he went to the Patriots
TO is 36 and will turn 37 during this season.
That’s asking a lot from McD to do what the Pats did with Moss in NE in 2007 with TO and the Broncos in 2010 – don’t you think?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by c_style on Jul 21, 2010 11:20 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I mentioned below some significant differences between the Pats in 2007 & the Broncos in 2010
which would make a TO conversion, if necessary, far more difficult.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
I'm not saying so much that it will have the same effect
My point is that Moss was a negative team player, he put down his coaches and teammates, he wasn’t good in the locker room, yet he was the key that lit the franchise’s passing game. I was just saying that McD hasn’t been afraid to bring in a top talent, even if he is a diva. If he can be controlled, he can be used. Great coaches can control divas, coaches like Belicheck, Walsh, Parcells, Shula, all could control their big personality players. If McD wants to be a great coach, he’ll need at one point to control players like Marshall, and not just ship them off when there is a problem.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 12:39 AM MDT up reply actions
No
McD has created a situation where he’s going to have to accomplish a lot just to not be considered a major failure in Denver. Adding TO shouldn’t bother him, especially if it’s at a very reduced rate.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:50 PM MDT up reply actions
McD hasn't created that situation
That’s the exact same situation that every head coach in the NFL is in.
The situation McD has created is to completely blow up and overhaul a roster in 2 off seasons. After round 1 of the makeover he’s .500 as a HC. Disappointing? Sure, we all have high expectations but honestly .500 isn’t that bad at all after that much roster turnover and installing and running completely new systems. Most people last off season were talking about our top 5 pick that we gave to Seattle and the 3-5 wins everyone had us pegged for. I’d say McD has created a pretty good situation in such a short time. Our D went from one of the worst in the league in 2008 to what looks to me to be a top 10 maybe even top 5 D this year. We no longer have any me first players, everyone is on board, and the team chemistry is great. Why risk that on an over the hill WR who’s proven time and time again that he destroys team chemistry?
The last thing McD needs to do is panic and sign TO b/c he’s afraid that he can’t win without him thus he’ll be considered a major failure in Denver.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
Totally backwards thinking
This is absolutely a high risk – low reward player.
He isn’t as good as he used to be…blather all you want about how in shape he is, but he isn’t as quick and he drops way too many passes to be useful.
He brings cancer into the team…he is absolutely a me first guy and that is completely opposite of what our coach is trying to do with this team. Try to pin the MSM as the bad guy all you want, but for you to not think he is a cancer is a blind statement. Look at Alan’s history laid out for you above.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
by sadaraine on Jul 21, 2010 9:32 AM MDT reply actions 4 recs
See Randy Moss scenario
I didn’t say he hasn’t been a distraction. He drew a lot of attention to himself and it was easy for him to be blamed for his team’s short comings.
I’m not saying he’s an angel, but he’s not as bad as he’s been portrayed. That’s what I’m trying to say. What I AM saying is that if he’s willing to help the Broncos win, and he comes at a cheap price, then why would we not bring him in? The minute he causes trouble, he’s gone, and likely so is his money.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:36 AM MDT up reply actions
Here is the reason
Trouble starts brewing and festers before management ever gets to tackle the issue. Look at your own workplace. Management response is rarely instantaneous. Once a problem is uncovered then it has to be accurately analyzed and then fairly and honestly dealt with.
In a 16 week season there is to much damage that can be done before damage control can take over.
If unity is the key then High risk Low reward.
"Is it normal to wake up in the morning in a sweat because you can't wait to beat another human's guts out?"
Joe Kapp
by lifelongvike on Jul 21, 2010 10:33 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'd say the MSM portrayal of TO is the most accurate out there
The guy is a class A jerk. He has shown that time and again. I disagree with you and your assessment that he’s not as bad as portrayed.
I don’t care how cheap he is.
“Excuse me sir, but if you pay me a nickel, I’ll gladly give you a malignant tumor.”
My response is “Not on your life”.
What’s yours?
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
NO
It’s like saying, I’ll give you this IPhone for 20 bucks. It’s old, but it still works and can do everything you need it to, but you’ll need to replace it in a year or two.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Same thing
iPhone = Cancer = TO
Any way you slice it, it should be taken out back with a sledge-hammer.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
I'd say its more like saying...
I’ll give you this iPhone for $20. It’s old and has a nasty virus on it, but can still do everything else you need. If you plug it into your computer (put him into your locker room) you run the risk of that virus spreading and crashing your network, but it might be very good at making phone calls.
by Timimus on Jul 21, 2010 4:00 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Adjust that
This is TO version 4…he won’t be able to make phone calls well either.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
I am a No Sayre
I have concerns about his track record of incidents with other team mates and my major concern would be that so would other members of the locker room. I also have doubts about how he would react to potentially playing in a system where the receptions are spread around. Also I am not sure how cheap he would be. I think on these basis i would perceive it to be more of a high risk deal.
I also like that the veteran WRs are those that have at least a year of understanding the playbook and in Gaffney’s case longer still. This balance with the talented rookies I think will work well.
"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson
You could be right,
and I hope you are, but if our coaching staff is not satisfied with what they see in camp, TO is a good option. If he doesn’t come cheap, I’m not on board, but for the right price I’m all for it.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 9:38 AM MDT up reply actions
Would Pat Kirwan's contract proposal be the type of contract you were looking for?
"The Holy Writ of Gloucester Rugby Club demands: first, that the forwards shall win the ball; second, that the forwards shall keep the ball; and third, the backs shall buy the beer." - Doug Ibbotson
by SteveUK on Jul 21, 2010 9:46 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is exactly the thought process a GM should have
A take it or leave it type of deal that is incentive laden and cheap for the buyer. Fantastic idea.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions
no way
Owens just isn’t that good any more. He drops a lot of balls, and has definitely lost speed. I don’t think he’s significantly better than any of our top 4 receivers.
And even if one says he’s misunderstood, or has changed (because frankly, that Philadelphia situation a few years ago was more than being misunderstood) he still can’t handle the media, and the media loves to go after him. He seems to bring very little upside compared to what we’ve got on the field, and a large downside off the field.
by egotistical ma on Jul 21, 2010 9:38 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
If I was a betting man
this is a great debate but the way McD seems to roll this will never happen no matter how desperate McD may be. McD is done with headache typ players at least in the short term
6 Reasons Why We Should
1) BayBay- can learn the NFL WR Trade from on of the best and TO can mentor our #1 Draft Pick how to play the position and then Stokley can mentor him on how not to be a diva….:S
2) The guy has not been declining- HE PLAYED IN BUFFALO LAST YEAR
3) Physical Fitness- teaches a great work ethic
4) If we get him cheap, MCD Will have him on a short leash and if he acts up.let him go
5) We aren’t going to win anyways…why not our team lacks a true #1 I think it could only help
6) I agree that Ed Werder and ESPN were out to @#$& him in the $%^
People take many things way too serious.
I can get a rise out of you.
I don't think we need another baby TO. we had that once already
I like baby Calvin Johnson better (which incidentally is why he is called bey bey). I didn’t hear Calvin publicly saying he should get the ball more and he is on the worst team there is (well maybe second worst). I think Bey Bey will do much better with Rod Smith on the sideline and the other vets on the team.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 21, 2010 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions
6 Reasons Why We shouldnt
1) Bay Bay- Will only learn to be a ball hogging diva from him
2) He is old
3) Past problems- (Appeared to have Team Chemistry Problems)
4) Probably wants $$$
5) More Media Attention- (Even thought I dont think that its possible now that we have TT)
6) The Dude Tried to OFF HIMSELF…WTF?!
People take many things way too serious.
I can get a rise out of you.
by ndrwbrgr on Jul 21, 2010 10:02 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree with your lists
Though I would add #5 from this list to the “Should” category. If this team is losing, they might as well be making money doing it. I don’t think they will be less than 10 wins this year, but if they are I think between TO and Tebow we will be making enough money via jersey sales to suffice. Not to mention people will pay good money to watch that. That’s good TV.
You sign TO for cheap, you get paid back completely within a year of jersey sales.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions
It is a Business
I guess I agree with you…
I just dont think we win more than 8 games
Tebow+TO+MCD Pressure+ Elvis Contract+ Champ Contract+ Clady/Harris+Rookies+ (Orton+"GQ Quinn+Tebow)-Brandon Marshall (1st year)= Disaster
Thats why I think adding TO and getting more attention could just put us over the top is what I was thinking.
But as a business major/marketing man I agree on the BIZ side. Denver Broncos could lead the league in jersey sales!
People take many things way too serious.
I can get a rise out of you.
It's probably been stated numerous times.
But my biggest problem with TO has to do with team chemistry. I think the guy is a physical freak, and it seems like he works his ass off. He is clearly in phenomenal shape. However, with the exception of Buffalo, he has caused division in every locker room in which he played.
- Jeff Garcia
- Donovan McNabb
- Drew Bledsoe
- Bill Parcells
- Todd Haley
- Tony Romo
Granted, some of these people are also hotheads, but TO is the common denominator in all these problems. Particularly in San Fran/Philly/Dallas, each of these locker rooms ended up with a “TO camp VS Player X camp.” In San Fran, it was TO vs. Garcia. In Philly, TO vs McNabb, in Dallas it was TO vs Parcells / Haley / Romo / Witten. On each of these teams, he created divisions amongst the players and with the coaching staffs. At some point you have to acknowledge that lightning should not be striking around the same person over and over again. On our veteran 2005 squad? I’d say he’s worth the risk. But on a young team with a young coach? A team where there is already something of a QB controversy brewing, where TO’s influence could only cause more division? A team where the coach is trying to build not only a championship team, but an organizational philosophy? I cannot say “No” strenuously enough. The risk of him undermining the coach’s vision and of him causing dissension in a young locker room far outweighs any possibly rewards…especially because he not only has great “good” numbers, he is also Marshall-esque in terms of dropsies.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
by ncm42 on Jul 21, 2010 10:09 AM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Yes, those are all great examples of TO's poor judgement in the past
But the Broncos do not have to commit to him long term like those other teams did. He was a key acquisition of all of those teams, and would be a bargain bin option for a team at this point. Of note on that list of people in particular is Tony Romo. We all have seen the infamous, “That’s my quarterback” press conference. If there’s bad blood between TO and Romo, it was short lived or hidden quite well.
As for Todd Haley, he got into it with Anquan Boldin as well. Obviously he has personality issues. Bill Parcells one of the bigger hot heads in the NFL, or at least he was when he was a coach but look at the common denomenator you have just laid out: Class organizations willing to bring this guy in to make it work.
Dallas and Parcells brought him in and signed him to a lot of cash. Philadelphia brought him in. New England brought in Moss. I mean, the list goes on. These teams who are committed to winning and committed to their philosophy consistently look for situations like this. If a guy has acted up in the past, has had some off years, but still obviously is talented, they will take a chance for a low price to see if the guy works out.
TO was clean for a year in Buffalo, so we have no reason to believe he will revert to his former self if he comes to Denver on a modest contract fighting rookies for playing time.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions
So again I would ask Sayre
Why would buffalo a team who was 7-9 the year before and 6-10 last year let him go and not sign him to another 1 year deal. Their receivers aren’t anything to write home about.
I guess what I am getting at is how does he transform into something speacial just because he plays for our broncos. It just doesn’t register for me.
by broncos314 on Jul 21, 2010 10:48 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I’d take Lee Evans in a heartbeat. I think Lee Evans would be a 100+ catch guy on any other team and somehow in his career in BUF he has never caught more than 82 while only averaging 60’s. So TO walks in expecting and receiving double teams and still manages to lead the team in receptions, and this isn’t a product of receiver talent, it’s on the QB’s who were less than stellar or even ok.
"And on the 8th day, God created Tim Tebow. And He saw that it was good. And He said, "I can now retire. Go forth and make Touchdowns through Running and Passing."
-Harvey J. Neptune
by JALefor on Jul 21, 2010 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Several misnomers here
1. “That’s my QB” drama came BEFORE he started trouble over Romo and Witten having “secret plays” and “not including me in their private conversations.” In short, the problems with him and Romo happened AFTER the last time he promised he had changed and was a team-first guy… TO just couldn’t help himself. The difference is that Romo would not take the bait, and Dallas let TO go soon thereafter.
I’m not a psychologist, but he seems to have some uncontrollable narcissistic tendencies. He’s not messed up once or twice, it’s been his standard MO, with the exception of one year in Buffalo. The reason we have to believe he will revert to form is because he has displayed a pattern of being a “model citizen” early on, then turning back into his old self. Buffalo just didn’t keep him around long enough for the implosion.
2. Not disputing Haley seems like an ass, but again…TO was involved in similar problems everywhere he’s been, other than Buffalo. After looking at what he did to Garcia and McNabb, do we really want to run the risk of him spending all his time criticizing/yapping at Orton?
I wouldn’t call McD a hothead, but do you honestly think TO would not challenge him, given McD’s relative youth and occasional tendency to talk smack to players?
3. Parcells did not want TO, and had nothing to do with bringing him in. It’s fairly well-documented that Jerry Jones wanted TO for the “star power” ahead of opening the new stadium. In fact, many Dallas observers believe the debate over TO is why Parcells ultimately left Dallas, as TO was JJ’s toy, and Parcells did not want him there. Remember the whole “the Player” thing?
Yes, each of these teams brought him in. And then each let him go. So again….it’s not worth damaging team chemistry, in my eyes. Even with the whole, “If he acts out, we let him go” mindset. If he acts out, the damage is done. There are still players in Philly and Dallas who are “Team TO” guys, long after he’s gone. Damage to team chemistry can linger, long after the problem is let go.
I’m all about second chances, as we all make mistakes. But when we get into 7th, 8th, 15th chances…it’s great that someone out there wants to take a leap of faith on guys with that kind of history. Just please, not here. That’s what Oakland is for.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
by ncm42 on Jul 21, 2010 11:07 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Some great points
1. That’s why you get him as a short rental. He only has one or two years left at the most. When he was in other situations, he knew he could say what he wanted but still perform and he could have what he wanted. He no longer has that available to him, regardless of where he goes.
2. I don’t think he would sign if that were the case, especially with a modest deal. Besides, being at training camp and watching Champ Bailey run suicides, I doubt TO would have any dog in that fight.
3. Agreed that he has had problems in the past. Yes, he has had multiple chances. What I will say of that matter is that if the Broncos and their management don’t take issue with it in an interview/workout, we shouldn’t either.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 12:01 PM MDT up reply actions
He didn't help Buffalo much in the short term so I don't see how he will help us at all in the short term either.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 21, 2010 11:50 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Let's be fair
We’re far better than Buffalo
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 12:06 PM MDT up reply actions
Point is that a worse team did worse with TO. A good player should make a team better right?
A good WR should make a QB better right? I think he would hinder us more than help us personally.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 21, 2010 12:10 PM MDT up reply actions
See Detroit Lions
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions
Dude, Sayre...
…Where the hell have you been all my life!!? Thanks for the article!
There is only One Moment—this moment—the Eternal Moment of Now
Moss and Owens
The thing I like about Owens is that no matter what, once he gets on the field it’s 110% every time! He might complain about balls once in a while but honestly that’s what WR do. Moss doesn’t give 110% every play and I constantly see him dogging it. I would sign TO to a 1 year, maybe two year deal and see what happens. As we all have seen with McDaniels, he doesn’t take no crap from anyone so I think we should be alright.
Looking forward to the second year in McDaniels system!
maybe that extra 10% is what causes him to drop so many balls.
I like how he says his quarterback is always at fault for not getting him the ball. Well TO if you didn’t drop so many balls you would be getting it a lot more.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 21, 2010 11:52 AM MDT up reply actions
So you don't want a guy who will fight for the ball
For those extra yards, you want a guy with no spirit, cause from football players I’ve seen, few compare to the competitior Owens is.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
I don’t get the argument that says not to take him because we are building for the future. Isn’t winning games now a good thing if you’re trying to set up a winning team for the future? He may not be the best teammate and some people just hate him because he’s the person hate in the NFL but I think that his reward coul be higher than his risk therefore he may not be a bad short term help the team build option. I think it would be great to see if he could produce for our team. As far as blasting your QB to the media, while it is shameful and stupid I would hope that our QB’s have thicker skin than that.
Another healthy MHR debate.
"And on the 8th day, God created Tim Tebow. And He saw that it was good. And He said, "I can now retire. Go forth and make Touchdowns through Running and Passing."
-Harvey J. Neptune
by JALefor on Jul 21, 2010 10:49 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Sayre.. no at this time, on this team.
We are an 8-8 or 9-7 team this second year of rebuilding. We need to get the current WR’s into (playing) the system not watching. Our stable of Royal, Thomas, Decker, and McKinley need to work together to become a staple of the offense.
What would TO bring? Only a reshuffle of reps and this is not needed at this time.
How did he help Buffalo last year? Fitzpatrick and Edwards are similiar to Orton. And Evans is a Royal with Reed equating to Gaffney.
NAH I do not see how TO really helped Buffalo.
Sayre..lets keep building OUR team. Rod Smith is a PERFECT mentor not TO.
by DLMyers on Jul 21, 2010 11:13 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
You seem to be only arguing this based on what T.O. says about himself.
Of course he will say he isn’t a distruption in the locker room, or a great team player. How about we ask other people who he has played with? If he is so great in the locker room then why did Donovan McNabb want him gone? Why did the cowboys cut him? 49’ers? Eagles? Bills?
Seems like there is much more to the story than just the media making him a bad guy. You really think the coaches and owners believe what ESPN says about a player on their team when they are the ones that see that player first hand and up close? I’m sorry but that would be absurd. I disagree with the idea that TO is a low risk option strictly because he says the media has ruined his reputation. T.O has ruined his own reputation by opening his mouth.
The guy is a me first player. I don’t want him on the Broncos no matter how cheap we could get him for.
by BroncoMath101 on Jul 21, 2010 11:33 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
last time sayre said a played would make sence on our team and everyone disagreed
Tebow was drafted lol
by Pmoreno95 on Jul 21, 2010 11:47 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
Btw, I really think Jabar Gaffney is underrated and that the Broncos are happy to have him back.
He will be a surprise in 2010.
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers/Lakers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants/Warriors country, and damned proud of it.
by underdog on Jul 21, 2010 11:48 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
Wait a minute...
…didn’t we just finish getting rid of some high-maintenance, “me-first” guys, who weren’t team players? And hasn’t this been the precise theme since McDaniels took over, that he wants and is actively moving to get players who put their team first? So how can TO, a guy who unarguably seeks to create his own publicity, be even remotely considered a team first kinda’ guy? And how would the entire Broncos organization (and the fans who have bought this new philosophy of the Denver Broncos now being a team first organization) not come across as total hypocrites if they now turn around and rationalize, justify, reconcile, or whatever, that it’s now perfectly OK to bring in another high-maintenance, “me-first” kinda’ guy, like TO?
by 9798 on Jul 21, 2010 11:49 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I would encourage you to read past the title
That would explain my thought process and virtually all the questions yo uasked.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 12:04 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha rec'd
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 12:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Okay...
…but why didn’t you at least answer the questions that were left unanswered, then?
It's not unanswered, it's just in the other comments
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm quoting myself from a comment below. Here's how it is indeed possible, though not very probable, that TO fits into the new Broncos mantra.
Which I can tell you that I have no idea one way or the other. But if he can convince McDaniels, Xanders, and Bowlen he’s changed than McD wouldn’t really be making a move contradictory to his convictions on the Team mantra. McDaniels just wants players that:
1) Don’t get in trouble with the law. (T.O. passes here)
2) Will put the team goal first. (if T.O. agrees to a #2/3 receiver slot and takes less pay, i’d say that fits the bill).
3) is a hard worker. (Check again for T.O., no question about this one).
4) Is tough and intelligent (I’d say he’s got these as well).
5) A leader mentality (T.O. definitely knows how to raise the emotions and level of play on the field).
The only things I see that don’t fit is his occasional flag drawing by showing his emotions on the field (TD celebrations). but for the most part he plays by the rules and keeps his head right during the game.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Well, for the same reason or reasons that...
…the Broncos didn’t draft Dez Bryant after letting Brandon Marshall go, I think it’s highly improbable that McDaniels will now bring TO in. He would even risk drafting a couple of young guys with serious foot injuries than chance getting someone who could possibly be compared to Marshall (aka Baby TO).
by 9798 on Jul 21, 2010 2:14 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
1. Yes, he passes.
2. What he agrees to doesn’t matter. He has proven that when he’s not getting enough attention, what he has promised goes out the window. Judging by the pattern he’s established, it’s not a matter “if” he will cause disruptions, it’s “when.”
3. Yes, he passes.
4. Tough, physically. Mentally, the jury is out. Intelligent? I’d say no.
5. No way. Raising emotions on the field does not a leader make. Would a true leader…a Dawkins, a Bailey, a Rod Smith…intentionally and repeatedly cause divisions in the locker room, recruit players to be on “his” side against other players and coaches? Publicly say that certain members of the coaching staff should not even try talking to him?
I think TO gets something of an unfair rap, seeing as he does work his ass off and doesn’t get in trouble with the law. But his pattern of causing divisions amongst teammates and with coaches just cannot be understated.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
With every team this guy has played for, the relationship has ended poorly.
It’s not me, it’s you. No thanks to the old and not so good anymore TO.
Like I said with Dez Bryant before the draft, I highly doubt McD even has TO on his radar.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
by McGeorge on Jul 21, 2010 12:18 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Again,
this could be the correct way of thinking, but not only did we need some debate going on here, we are one of the few teams who have not come out publicly and said we’re not interested in TO.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Only because we don’t need to.
Our lack of interest is implied by McD’s past roster moves and behavior.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
by McGeorge on Jul 21, 2010 3:10 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
"not only did we need some debate going on here"
Hahahhahahahh…..SB! Are you just trying to stir up some discontent in the quiet before camp???
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
Perhaps a little :)
But I’m not just throwing up ideas on here. I wrote this back in feb/march as a possibility, and it still is so I figured why not?
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 22, 2010 9:11 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
If the accusations the media is spinning turn out to be the REAL reason he hasn't been signed. Then I 100% agree with you McG.
However, if it’s the league circumstances that are holding up the process, than I’ll wait and see on the guy. Between the lack of CBA (which would affect a 2-3 year contract at #1 or #2 WR pay, which is no-doubt what TO wants) and the WR situation in the league (most teams have their answers already or are waiting to see how the new talent and FA signins work before they make a big commitment on TO) and the ones that don’t have answers for the #1 and #2 slot need a long term solution, not the short-term one that TO offers so they are probably waiting on the waiver wire and cut-time to see if a younger guy they’ve been keeping their eyes on gets free.
The time to measure TO from a fan perspective is nearing, but its not here yet. We just don’t have enough current info, because I don’t believe a word of what ESPN or any major media outlet has to say, and I also believe people CAN change. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Ray Lewis did it, why not TO?
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions
T.O. reminds me of other shanahan projects that busted!
I hope we never see TO in a Bronco uniform. That would go against the whole reason they traded B. Marshall. If they are going to uphold the idea that the Broncos will with with Character guys and heart then TO is the wrong choice and a poor option for this team.
by LBCMAN on Jul 21, 2010 12:29 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Except he's not as expensive
There’s no risk really with bringing him in for cheap. You can cut him and pack his contract with incentives.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:23 PM MDT up reply actions
But if you don't want me first players on your team
You don’t care about how cheap those types of players would be.
If you want a 52 man roster made of nothing but team first players, who have all bought in 100% to the coaches, the scheme, and the team. If that’s your goal. Then please don’t tell me how inexpensive a me first player would be. It doesn’t matter to McD how cheap TO would be at this point in his career.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
Was he a me first player in Buffalo last year?
No, he appears to have straighened up his act and has been humbled in a sense.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:55 PM MDT up reply actions
He was released before he showed his true colors in Buf IMO
If Buf would’ve re-signed him I believe it was just a matter of time. He did it to every team he has been on until Buf. Just b/c TO didn’t have issues in year 1 in Buf doesn’t negate the issues he’s had with every other team he’s ever been on. It’s too risky if you have a team first philosophy which McD obviously does.
The Bills were either smart enough to know to only give him 1 year and had planned that all along or TO’s decline in play didn’t warrant the money he was asking.
Either way the fact remains that for some reason Buffalo didn’t want to resign him, even after he seemed to straighten up his act. And neither has any other team to date.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
Wow, if this guys saved children
Worked at an animal shelter and donated his money to charity, you’d say it was all part of his scheme.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 1:11 AM MDT up reply actions
How about this analogy then
I’m here to apply for the Accountant position. I’ve embezzled money from and been fired by every employer that I’ve ever worked for except for the last one. Well they fired me too after 1 year but not for embezzlement. You see I no longer steal. I’ve changed. Even though I’ve told that to each of my last employers too it’s obviously true since I didn’t steal from my last company.
Now honestly, would you hire this applicant?
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by c_style on Jul 22, 2010 1:52 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
We'll I'd hire him short term
No problem, knowing that in his first two years with a company he doesn’t make trouble, so I’d let him work a year or two no problem. Especially if he was good and worked for a cheap price.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 2:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Wow
You’re more trusting with your money than I am.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
When I make hundreds of millions of dollars
And I risk around $2 million to sell tickets and increase our chance of winning even a little, then yes, I am.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 2:42 AM MDT up reply actions
You are ignoring the risk of losing a bunch of money if this employee steals from you
Just like you are ignoring the risk of TO posioning team chemistry if we sign him.
In the analogy the employee has shown a long history of stealing from employer after employer. Just like TO has shown a long history of destroying team chemistry on team after team.
You may want to ignore that but I don’t think McX will.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
by c_style on Jul 23, 2010 10:43 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
What did he poison in one year in Buffalo again?
You keep bringing up his history and how it doesn’t change, well here’s a fact from his history, he hasn’t EVER has a problem his 1st year on a team, ever that I know of, so for you that don’t think he can change, well then, 1 year won’t hurt.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 24, 2010 1:41 AM MDT up reply actions
Whose fault is it?
He hasn’t messed up once or twice. He’s established a pattern everywhere except Buffalo! And honestly….even if he was causing some headaches in Buffalo, who outside of that city would even know?
Is anyone a member of the Bills’ SB Nation site? I’d love to get their take on this.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
SB, a question
Say we bring him in as a “short term rental.” He is a good soldier for a while. Then he becomes unhappy with McD/Orton’s arm/the attention Tebow is getting/the fact that the QBs talk to other WRs/his reality show ratings/etc. He starts causing problems, to the point where the locker room shows some division into the “TO camp vs Camp X.” McD and Bowlen let him go. Does the division and the bad feeling disappear as soon as he’s cut? Or do you agree that once the genie is out of the bottle, it’s not as simple as cutting the problem child?
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
I'm not saying sign this guy, but let's be fair
Look at the Buffalo situation. He busted his butt for a team with turrible qb’s and no o-line. He was released by the same team that thought is was a good idea to let their starting LT go without having drafting or signing a reasonable backup. He caused no trouble in a completely (raiders level) dysfunctional environment. The TO I remember would have questioned Ryan Fitzpatrick’s sexuality, yelled at his coaches and sent a giant plaster bust of his head over Niagara Falls for each TD he scored. In other words, his year in Buffalo should speak as much to who he is now as his prior incidents to who he’s been. It fair to criticize his hands, his ego and his age, but to be critical of his past without acknowledging his behavior in 2009 doesn’t seem fair.
With that said, the guy still demands a double-team from opposing defenses (and Gaffney doesn’t) which would help Royal be productive. I don’t believe that he would want to come off the bench and he’s never been one to mentor young receivers. It kind of smells like Allen Iverson going to Memphis/Philly last year. If the coaching staff believes that Thomas and/or Decker will develop into starters this year, you can’t make this move.
by adub on Jul 21, 2010 12:39 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Sayre...
Your brain just doesn’t operate like most people’s. I usually can’t quite comprehend your choice of draft selections in your 20 predraft mocks. And on any normal day I probably wouldn’t have bothered to read this post.
That being said, however, I do enjoy your writing, no matter how much it contradicts with my own opinion. I mentioned that I just don’t think your brain operates the same as most people, and hopefully you heard me right and took it as a compliment instead of an insult. I don’t quite understand quantum physics and I also think that Einstein’s brain didn’t quite operate like a normal persons. So for all I know you may be a genius.
I’m in a pretty open-minded mood today, so I’ll bite on this one (plus I watched T.O.‘s whole interview when it first aired on NFLN and I was able to symphathize with the guy for the exact reason you mentioned: ESPN’s bashing of the Broncos – even my one of our own (Schlerith – don’t care if it’s spelled right) ).
I trust McDaniels and Xanders. I think they’re on the right track with the Broncos in this modern era (a stout passing defense and a pass-friendly offense) because let’s face it, the dynamics of the game are slowly evolving and those two are doing everything within their power and ability to stay ahead of the curve.
T.O. would have to come in for both a workout and interview with these two. I know they would be straight to the point with him and tell him what they’re doing and what’s required of him. If T.O. can listen to that proposition (including being offered a lower pay than he’s used to) and still want to sign with Denver. Then yep. I’m all for it.
Now the rest of you, don’t get me wrong. I love the young blood in our WR corps, but that’s exactely the point. They are young blood. T.O. is a seasoned vet and would probably take much less time to learn and produce in this offense than your average (or even above average) rookie. He’d be a good Wide-out alternative to play alongside Gaffney (although I am happy with Lloyd starting at #2). Because we’ve got so many players that fit well in the slot I just don’t see us carrying Stokely this year, despite his great character and contributions to Denver thus far. I just don’t think he’s going to be able to beat out Royal for the slot this year, and I also don’t think the potential value will outweigh what a guy like Kenny McKinley could offer. It may be Stoke’s last stand, and if it is i’d like another veteran presence there to teach those WR’s a few tricks of the trade. If you think about it, we don’t really have an all-star WR vet than can teach Demarius how to succeed as a deep threat. I’m not saying that our current veteran WR’s can’t teach him many things, but they can’t teach him what T.O. could teach him. Plus I think there is just so much positive attitude in our lockerroom that T.O.’s “supposed” leaf turning would be able to concrete itself.
So to you Sayre I say: You can count me in. It may be highly controversial and a seemingly horrible decision to most of the fan base, but hell… Why the heck not. If he says he’s changed and he takes McX’s interview and pay offer and still wants to play ball with us, you can bet your crazy booty I’ll back that decision. If the loose ends (contract, character, etc) have all been tied down than there is NO question this guy can still bring his A game. With the move to more aggressive down-field passing T.O. would be a very useful addition as a #1/2 reciever at least until Thomas steps in the role alongside Gaffney/Lloyd.
I know my response may get hated on, but w/e. It’s a thoughtful idea, even if completely crazy.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 12:57 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I do want to add though, that:
I believe Denver will do just fine without T.O. and I highly doubt Denver would make a move like this (but I will never rule anything out with McD if the circumstances are right). We’ll have a great year with the talent we already have battling it out in TC. Sure, T.O. would be an upgrade, but that’s assuming that he really is who he says he is now. His one year bump and go at Buffalo may have been the wake-up call he’s needed. It’s happened to other Diva-players before, why not TO?
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 1:11 PM MDT up reply actions
If he says he's changed???
Alexander, I usually follow your thinking – you make lots of great points.
On this I totally disagree. T.O. said he changed when Philly acquired him, then when he went to Dallas, then when he went to Buffalo. He was a super cancer in Philly, maybe worse than in SF. I grew up near Philly – going to Eagles games – and still have lots of family there – he was a total jerk there (initially not so bad, although NEVER a team player, but near the end – go research articles in the Philly Inquirer about his behavior the last year he was an Eagle). There is very little evidence that he has changed – mainly what he says – and there is lots of evidence that you can not believe what he says about changing. He is an extremely egotistical publicity loving person with declining skills and no sense of teamwork – and little to no respect for coaches; only a little respect for power (ie Jerry Jones). Except for the athletic ability he still retains, he is the opposite type of player McDaniels says he wants.
I like McDaniels a lot. I do not understand how so many people,on this board, even entertain getting a player such as T.O. Will not happen! Should not happen – and I trust McD and company are not wasting any time even thinking along those lines. If T.O. took minimum salary (and the evidence indicates he wants several times that amount), McD would not consider signing him.
by cohiker on Jul 21, 2010 4:54 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
There is a reason...
T.O. has bounced across the league, despite huge talent. Signing T.O. does not align with McD’s efforts to build a team with strong character.
This I agree with
TO serves as nothing but a distraction, I really see no reward or payoff for signing TO, basically as soon as Orton underthrows him a ball, he is going to be screaming at Orton, calling his QB out, being a general nussaince, and a mjor headache. We know the MO for TO, he claims to be a changed man, a good team player, only cares about winning, yada…. and then he reverts to TO. Let him go sign with the Raiders or SD, allow him to be team obliterator for someone else.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman
Yep. Unless he's changed.
Which I can tell you that I have no idea one way or the other. But if he can convince McDaniels, Xanders, and Bowlen he’s changed than McD wouldn’t really be making a move contradictory to his convictions on the Team mantra. McDaniels just wants players that:
1) Don’t get in trouble with the law. (T.O. passes here)
2) Will put the team goal first. (if T.O. agrees to a #2/3 receiver slot and takes less pay, i’d say that fits the bill).
3) is a hard worker. (Check again for T.O., no question about this one).
4) Is tough and intelligent (I’d say he’s got these as well).
5) A leader mentality (T.O. definitely knows how to raise the emotions and level of play on the field).
The only things I see that don’t fit is his occasional flag drawing by showing his emotions on the field (TD celebrations). but for the most part he plays by the rules and keeps his head right during the game.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 1:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Just to follow this up with my personal over-all opinion.
I think we’ll do just fine without him.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Agreed
But there’s no harm for making the rounds, covering all bases. If this guy’s available/healthy/mentally stable, he should get at least an interview.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:27 PM MDT up reply actions
I bet you a phone conversation has already taken place.
Whether they intend on taking further steps or not is obviously still yet to be shown by either party.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions
I think this comment from Matt Williamson makes sense
“Owens will get calls a few weeks into training camp when decision-makers realize that their wide receiver corps is not as strong as they had hoped or a prominent wideout goes down with an injury. I do believe that he will play in 2010, but I just don?t see the fit right now. Owens can still produce in a complementary receiver role. And I think he will be motivated to prove everyone wrong.”
Though, “a few weeks into training camp” would be too long to wait. It should happen in the coming week or so if the Broncos want to make it happen
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions
on those five points
I agree T.O. passes your #1 and #3-5 (as you defined them). But for #2, Teamwork is not part of T.O. – he has always wanted the team to support T.O.; not the other way around.
I agree T.O. has leadership ability (#5), but he uses that to promote T.O. There are people with leadership ability who have a positive effect on teams amd teamwork – and people with leadership who use it to promote themselves at the expense of the goals established by coaches and management. T.O. is that latter type of leader – and negative divisive leaders are not what McD wants.
Also, McD wants coachable players, ones who will do their job – run the correct routes, run the tough routes, block., etc – and most of all, during the game, run the plays that are called without questioning them! T.O. is not that type of player.
regarding "hard worker"
I hit the wrong key – so here is the comment:
I agree T.O. is a hard worker, but not in a teamwork sense. T.O. trains very hard and has always kept himself in great shape – he works hard doing that – and during games he usually works hard. But he has not been a good practice player – sometimes working hard, sometimes not at all – very inconsistent worker at team functions – sets a bad example – and does so consistently: SF, Philly, Dallas, Buffalo..
I hope you are right
I like to think positively about people until I can personally confirm otherwise. In TO’s defense, I know very little about him aside from fantasy football stats and the standard media stories. My biggest concern isn’t what the MSM is saying about TO, it is the reactions from every other team in NFL. If he can still produce at a high level and doesn’t have as many issues as believed, why is there absolutely no interest in signing him around the league? I think the NFL coaches know some things that we fans don’t. This guy has been black listed in the most competitive of sports leagues. Adam (Pacman) Jones can get a job but TO can’t. That’s enough proof for me to pass.
I think it's got a lot to do with the fact that:
Because QB’s are getting better and better in this league, its easier for a young WR to produce and succeed in most offenses. So veteran WRs aren’t as crucial as they used to be.
I also think there’s some underlying pay issue. The CBA is jacking everything up, and I think T.O. is looking for probably a 2-3 year contract, and no doubt asking for the pay he think’s he deserves which – at minimum – top 10 pay for a #1 or #2 receiver. Few teams out there need a #1 or #2 receiver, and the ones that do need a long term solution, not a short term one.
I think a lot of these WR hungry teams are waiting to hear from the waiver wire before they make a 2-3 year commitment on TO. If the wire doesn’t fall right then expect more than a handful of teams to come calling and offer TO almost exactely what he’s looking for. Its a thing of timing, and unfortunately it gets played off badly on TO who is known to have past issues.
Until I get some good evidence that the CBA and team situations around the league aren’t slowing TO’s signing process, than i’m not going to lay the hammer down on him yet. I like to think positively as well, because people CAN change. If Ray Lewis can turn over a new leaf, than TO can too.
"I have no right, by anything I do or say, to demean a human being in his own eyes. What matters is not what I think of him; it is what he thinks of himself." - Antoine de Exupery
by Alexander Wall on Jul 21, 2010 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Good Points
I agree that salary, contract agreements, and the CBA all play a role, but that alone shouldn’t have kept TO from making some kind of a splash in the free agency pool. Perhaps you are right though, and all the teams are just waiting him for to lower his offers.
by rollinthunder on Jul 21, 2010 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions
Look
Our current Wide Receivers do not inspire fear into the hearts of the opponents. We all may have the highest hopes for Demayrius and Decker, but right teams do not fear those guys. Jabar Gaffney and Eddie Royal are our #1 and #2 guys. That isn’t going to scare anyone.
With Terrel Owens on our team, he immediately makes our wide receivers look better. At 36 years old, he still managed 55 catches for 829 yards and 5 touchdowns. I don’t know about the rest of you, but I would love to have that kind of production on our post-marshall team. Our team is way better then Buffalo’s. So those stats have a nice chance of being better.
As far as his “character” concerns, I think it’s debatable.
San Francisco- He enjoyed early success, but Young retired, the front office got a shake up and he wanted to leave. I don’t blame him for that. He went from playing with Steve Young to playing with Jeff Garcia. Then his front office got a total shake up. This was all following a 7-9 season. He was a star receiver on a team heading downward.
Philadelphia- He had a terrific 1st season, then he wanted a new contract that would put him in the top 10 wide receivers. Philly didn’t want to give it to him. He made a comment that most people assumed was directed towards McNabb. T.O. has always denied that the comment was directed towards McNabb. After complaining throughout a season about a new contract, he was released.
Dallas- This situation was not his fault. My mom is a Cowboy fan and I watched T.O. in Dallas. This was almost totally Romo’s fault. Romo was throwing the ball to Witten way more then T.O. When he wasn’t throwing to Witten, Witten was always his first read. T.O. wanted the ball. Romo was too involved with his bromance with Witten.
Buffalo- Not one word from him all season.
Has he done controversial things? Yes. But how many wide receivers can we count that have done and said controversial things. I would argue that his only controversial ending was with the Eagles. Wade Phillips himself said, “There’s no question what he is willing to do for his team.” He is dedicated, experienced, and most importantly, he wants to win. He loves to win. He played on a terrible Buffalo team and he did well considering the circumstances.
I don’t think we will sign him, but I wouldn’t be so worried about our wide receivers if he did.
Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
by Nick Cast on Jul 21, 2010 1:13 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I usually agree with you Nick
But you’re way off target here, it was more than just one silly little comment that wasn’t actually meant towards anyone in Philly, in SanFran, calling out your quarterback on being a homosexual is unexcuseable, especially a high character guy like Jeff Garcia. In Dallas they built their offense around the guy who was their best offensive player, Witten. Your comment would be like saying Rivers has a bromance with Gates and that Vincent Jackson should leave because he deserves better. Even everything you said pointed towards a me first attitude his whole career. If Owens really wanted to win why would he complain so much on a Eagles super bowl team? They went to the super bowl and en route all he did was complain
by Warren Todd on Jul 21, 2010 1:55 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
Well
I would like to skip over San Fran and Philly. I was not actively watching T.O. enough to give an accurate argument. I was watching him when he was in Dallas. Witten was their best offensive player because Romo made him the best offensive player. The relationship turned sour in 2008. In that season, Witten was passed to 81 times for 81 times. T.O. was passed to 69 times. T.O. got 1052 yards and 10 touchdowns. Witten got 952 yards and 4 touchdowns. Believe me when I tell you that on every play that Witten went on a passing route, Romo was looking for him. I remember clearly one game when Romo elected to pass in coverage to Witten and he missed T.O. who was wide open down the sideline. T.O. was producing really well, but Romo never fully utilized T.O. because he was busy looking for Witten. A big part of his reason for wanting the ball is because he is so competitive. He wants to win and if Romo had used T.O. more in Dallas, I would bet that they would have done better.
Look, I’m not saying he is a saint. I am saying that the media blows things way out of proportion and the T.O. in Dallas thing was way overblown. T.O. in San Fran and Philly might have been legit, but those were a long time ago. He and McNabb have since patched things up and have moved on.
Why not give T.O. a look. He literally did not say anything in Buffalo. He just did his best to produce. He did a good job of it considering the circumstances. If he could do that in Denver, we will be MUCH better for it.
Given T.O.’s recent track record, I would give him a shot. He is still capable of quality yards. He arguably would be the best receiver on our team. I say give it a shot.
Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
I understand where you're saying you didn't see enough of SF and Philly to comment
But saying let’s “skip over” his behavior there makes no sense. if we’re talking about his pattern of destroying locker rooms and team chemistry, you can’t skip over the places where he spent the first half of his career, and where he caused huge damage to two franchises.
As far as what did or did not happen in Dallas, ask yourself this question: Would Rod Smith have handled the situation the same way TO did? No matter if Romo was going to Witten too much or not, should a player ever try to start an ‘us vs them’ thing between member of his own team?
And in Romo’s defense for going to Witten too much and TO not enough…I’ve never seen Witten short-arm (or give up on) a route over the middle. I’ve seen TO do that quite a lot. If I’m Romo, especially on a critical 3rd down, will I look for the big, tough, dependable guy who cares about getting the job done? Or do I look for the loud, sometimes spectacular, WR who is just as likely to drop a pass or not go all-out over the middle if he might get his bell rung and who is probably going to throw me under the bus if he isn’t getting enough attention? Sorry, but I’m going to look for Witten as much as possible.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
So
All those who say the broncos are so much better than buffalo, well the records don’t neccesarily bare that out. Don’t get me wrong, I love my broncos but please don’t tell me that you are concerned about our receiving corps and want to add a receiver who didn’t make much improvement in Buffalo’s receiving corps.
And that is my point I do believe that the broncos are much better than Buffalo and that includes our receivers without Owens.
They were better
The Bills are arguably the worst team currently in the NFL. They don’t know who their QB is, or at least I don’t. They should be sending every scout they have to watch Jake Locker play this year, because he’ll be their top pick in next year’s draft. TO put up decent numbers with a merry go round of quarterbacks and an offensive line that was of collegiate merit.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Decent numbers in losses.
Didn’t we just trade that guy? ;-)
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
Absolutely Not
He’s spent his whole career tearing down high class individuals around him, eg Garcia, McNabb, Witten, etc. etc. The comparison to Moss is ridiculous, Moss is criticized for taking plays off and not being fully committed, TO is criticized for ruining team chemistry, slandering teammates, demanding attention and caring more about his individual performance than that of the team. Plus, it won’t help Bay Bays development to be sitting on the sidelines watching TO run deep routes. At this point in his career, TO is a relatively one dimensional player, and even if his character is better, you know he would not stand to not be on the field. Having him and Thomas on the field at the same time brings you 2 guys, who right now are similar in their abilities, except TO is at the end of his career and Thomas is at the ver beginning, signing TO hurts Thomas development, is a possible risk
by Warren Todd on Jul 21, 2010 1:47 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Ignore this
My phone posted before I got to edit the final words
by Warren Todd on Jul 21, 2010 1:49 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Absolutely Not
He’s spent his whole career tearing down high class individuals around him, eg Garcia, McNabb, Witten, etc. etc. The comparison to Moss is ridiculous, Moss is criticized for taking plays off and not being fully committed, TO is criticized for ruining team chemistry, slandering teammates, demanding attention and caring more about his individual performance than that of the team. Plus, it won’t help Bay Bays development to be sitting on the sidelines watching TO run deep routes. At this point in his career, TO is a relatively one dimensional player, and even if his character is better, you know he would not stand to not be on the field. Having him and Thomas on the field at the same time brings you 2 guys, who right now are similar in their abilities, which limits having a guy like Gaffney and Royal on the field unless we’re only running 3 and 4 wide reciever sets.
by Warren Todd on Jul 21, 2010 1:48 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
Let me try to rephrase in more coherent terms
Banging out the above on my mobile while making grilled cheese didn’t really work out too well haha
Okay, besides the character concerns, besides his drop in production, whether due to Buffalo’s problems or his own, how are you going to use this guy?
At this point in his career, Owens is best at going deep, and catching passes such as bubble screens, quick hooks for first downs, and quick inside slants for short yardage
All of that sounds alot like where Demaryius Thomas is in his abilities right now.
As such, are you going to bench Thomas in favor of Owens? If you have them both on the field, you have 2 outside recievers who are close to the same in their abilities, except one is younger, faster, and stronger. Are we going to run only 3 and 4 wide reciever sets? Or just rarely use Gaffney, Royal, McKinley and Decker? Do you think that Owens would be happy at all to be taken out plays? Of course not! He has a hard time getting enough catches to satisfy his ego while on the field 100% of the snaps!
by Warren Todd on Jul 21, 2010 2:04 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I have no problem not using McKinley
If he even makes the team. Plus the fact that McD loves to create mis-matches, and for that to work you need a variety of players. T.O. would add a second punch with him lining up opposite Thomas and Stokley and Royal lined up in opposite slot positions.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions
So we run 4-wr sets all the time?
Even if not McKinely, Decker, Gaffney and Thomas all lose playing time if we sign TO
Who said all the time
A number of teams keep one or two as their mains and use 3-4 others for special situations. So my main question to you would be, if T.O. is better then Gaffney, why not, Gaffney isn’t a young guy, he doesn’t need development. He’s the type of guy, if he’s good start him, if not, why give him reps. Thomas, Decker and Royal all still need time to develop, but Gaffney, Llyod and Stokley have all either peaked or are on the downhill. As for McKinley, he hasn’t shown he can do anything, losing him wouldn’t cut me very deep.
So just look at this, out receivers: Owens, Gaffney, Royal, Thomas and Decker. I don’t see Thomas or Decker coming in on every down in the first half of the season, unless our other receivers do struggle. So having five receivers seeing playing time isn’t a bad thing, and considering two of them are rookies, it’s better then our top four being half rookies.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 21, 2010 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions
?
How was the grilled cheese?
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
LOL
that’s awesome
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions
Sweet!
What’d the ysay?
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions
They said
that although it would make the Broncos bad, it would be incredibly interesting to watch. Props for the SN shout out!
Link?
It would be greatly appreciated!
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
i'm torn
on this one. On one hand we would have a pretty good wr to take the load off the younger guys, and a kind of security blanket for Orton to give to in a pinch. but on the other hand TO is basically the polar opposite of what McD is trying to accomplish.
I
don’t like TO’s attitude and ultimately he can’t play anymore, I don’t believe. Two strikes against him. He is smart enough not to play for the Chiefs, though, so he isn’t stupid.
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Jul 21, 2010 2:45 PM MDT reply actions
NO
please he wont mesh with MCD locker room and bspn 24-7 when they hate us allready
okay i have cerebral palsy arthris and chronic fatigue as well i have a great life and loveing folks some days are better than other days i got a make-a-wish in 2001 and saw my favorite team the broncos it was the trip of a lifetime i wish everyone couild have gotten to enjoy that with me i know some of u hate the broncos and that okay but i bleed organ and bule for my mnr fans but i bleed orange and blue denver will rise again resident broncos fan for every blog resident broncos for stampede bule thanks shvd98z24 real name jeremy woodard nettleton high class of 02 yes i am a raider
MHR JUST GOT A SHOUTOUT ON ESPN SPORTSNATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THIS ARTICLE GOT THE SHOUTOUT, SPARKED A DEBATE
awesome Sayre and congrats
At what point in the show was it?!
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Aw, bummer
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 3:40 PM MDT up reply actions
NO WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT DID THEY SAY?!?!?!?!
Last Name: Ever, First Name: Greatest
"Just Win Baby Win" -Me
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
they mentioned how Sayre wrote an article on the topic
but, being the MSM and ESPN in one package, they took the article idea and somehow made it about Tebow
If you missed the Sportsnation shoutout, tune into ESPN2 in 10 minutes. They are going to replay it.
If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.
Wow...Sayre has a real touch
This has to be the least recommended article with the most comments regarding a silly idea in the history of MHR.
You sure you aren’t Woody Paige in disguise??? (I jest)
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
Who cares?
It’s drawing traffic to the site, and it’s not a ridiculous idea. It’s not a prediction by any means, just an idea that has at least a marginal possibility of happening.
I didn’t really think you’d get on my case about anything again after all that crow you ate about Tim Tebow, but here you are again, asking for more!
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 4:13 PM MDT up reply actions
I disagree with you
It absolutely is a ridiculous idea. If you had a clue about our coach’s M.O. you would see that.
That’s fine if you want to sell the site to the masses with this type of stuff, but leave it at that. Good enough. The idea you have is a nice little way to spice up the blog and stir up some opinions. Much credit. Read through the thread though…horribly vast majority of comments disagree with you (don’t quote the poll…I care more about what our people say than what button gets pushed).
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
Really, sadaraine?
If you had a clue about our coach’s M.O. you would see that.
You are the last person I would have expected to post that comment.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:15 PM MDT up reply actions
How is that exactly?
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
You hammered me for basically five months straight on picking Tim Tebow. I think I have an idea of the “MO” of our coach.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 22, 2010 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Just based on this post you don't have a clue
Five months? Really? I thought it was just a month or two when you posted 3,543,235,349 mock drafts…maybe it was five months… :P
But back to the current discussion, no…if you think McDaniels is interested in TO, I think you are nuts. ESPECIALLY after he picked Tim Tebow. That’s what makes it crazy to see you post this goofy idea.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
by sadaraine on Jul 22, 2010 1:50 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree - this is a Woody Page type article
A fantasy – assumes that T.O. will be a team player and be inexpensive; and that any negative risk can be easily managed. T.O. is a dynamic powerful personality that the press loves because he attracts attention. There is no way it would be easy to manage downside risk. Cutler, BM , and Sheffler are boring nobodies in the national press compared to T.O. Put T.O. back in the spotlight, on a team with an unproven head coach, unproven QBs, unproven WRs and if things turn ugly … Is it even plausible the outcome would not be very negative to the coach and GM’s reputations?
Woody often makes assumptions that might sound plausible, but are actually totally unrealistic – and then he draws conclusions based on those bad assumptions. Woody does not have to deal with actually implementing his crazy schemes – he just needs to sell newspapers.
The MHR has been a much better source of real information and realistic scenarios. I hope it does not become another Denver Post, with articles written to generate readership, rather than to help understand Broncos reality.
Sayre, I am not suggesting that you are doing a Woody Page. But that’s how I see this one article – assumptions that defy the vast majority of evidence and oversimplification of the ease of dealing with downside risks.
by cohiker on Jul 21, 2010 11:28 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Take it easy, cohiker
The MHR has been a much better source of real information and realistic scenarios. I hope it does not become another Denver Post, with articles written to generate readership, rather than to help understand Broncos reality.
I’m not making assumptions other than saying that I think TO has possibly turned over a new leaf. It’s very possible if not probable that he is correct in saying he does 99 things right and we overblow the one thing he does wrong. To assume otherwise is no different than what I’m saying.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 11:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Rock that twister game you are so good at
You quoted the wrong part of your comment btw.
I know that this comment is kinda hard to follow. Let me translate for those of you who don’t want to sift through this stuff. Here’s what SB just said in a nutshell:
I’m not making assumptions other that I’m making assumptions.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
Fantastic comment
Thank you cohiker. Glad to see more than just me see this for what it is.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
Who cares
It’s a football blog, it’s July, and there’s nothing going on. Why not spark a little discussion?
Get a grip, people- it’s not like Sayre is McD and this is gonna happen tomorrow.
by AllBroncsallday on Jul 22, 2010 1:57 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm still failing to see the "low risk" side of this arguement.`
TO has a well documented track record of causing trouble (not with the law) in the locker room. Add to that his high salary demands that has so far seen most of the league turn their back on him.
Do we need anymore reason than the fact that Jerry Jones has kicked him off his team and now WAS (Dan Snyder) has ruled him out too?
It's pretty simple though
Low cost, more than a year gone without causing problems in an organization, new attitude, chip on shoulder, hard worker, potential Randy Moss factor as far as rejuvination in a good system with good players and a good coordinator/coach.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 4:14 PM MDT up reply actions
He wants enough money to have already scared off many teams including a few in greater need of WRs than we are.
I would think having caused significant locker room problems on 3 separate teams is more significant than 1 season at BUF where he didn’t. 1 season without causing problems is no more than an outlier (statistically), if he does it again I’ll consider believing the “new attitude”.
“Chip on shoulder” could apply to many people. Most people though Bryant should have been drafted ahead of Thomas. Couldn’t that mean he has a chip on his shoulder?
The “hard worker” part surprises me a bit, but honestly I don’t know whether to believe it or not. I think someone earlier mentioned hearing from a Bills employee(?) that TO wasn’t very popular in BUF and wasn’t always at training (granted this could be no more than hear-say).
Moss situation – Belichick had already won multiple superbowls and therefore had more respect and influence to handle Moss han McD currently has. I’d be surprised if TO could handle being yelled at by a HC younger than himself. Brady was also considered one of the top 2 QBs in the league, I doubt you could say the same about Orton, Quinn or Tebow yet.
You made Sportsnation Sayre! Well done!
Woo Hoo!
by BroadwayBroncoFan on Jul 21, 2010 4:19 PM MDT reply actions
Lol, just saw that!
Colin thinks it would make us “bad but fascinating”. Funny stuff. And people thought it was weirder than a cat on a tortoise, which shows the intelligence of some people who vote on that show haha.
Tebow fires deep, and Owens makes the catch! 20….15…..10…..5……
Yeah, kinda weird. But possible, nonetheless.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions
Huh?
Hate to restate the obvious, but the team that expelled little TO is going to sign big TO?
please no
Enough drama already, let’s play ball.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."
Philip K. Dick
by azdenfan on Jul 21, 2010 4:38 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
On one hand, he might have learned enough to be a decent team mate at this point in his career.
On the other hand, one of his biggest problems over the last few years has been dropped passes. Hands like a waffle iron do little to advance the goals of the team. There is already enough veteran leadership among the receivers. If more are added to the arsenal, I’d prefer they be somewhat younger, with more left in the tank.
"People who live in glass houses...shouldn't."
by jayrockstone on Jul 21, 2010 4:47 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Hey Sayre, gotta rec this for an intriguing post if nothing else
I’m fairly ambivalent on the TO issue.
On the one side, he definitely has talent and will force defenses to account for him.
But I see a couple of fairly serious issues:
(1)Is the portrayal of TO as a cancer a true depiction — as many believe — or is it media hype — as Owens argues? If it’s the former, Denver would be foolish to take him, if it’s the latter, the question would then become, “Why did he get painted with that brush?”
(2)Owens argues that he’s reformed, and many of his supporters point to his time in Buffalo as evidence. If true, he’s worth the risk, if not — if it was simply a ploy to get himself out of Buffalo, then Denver should not take him.
I’ve noticed a number of people have pointed to McDaniels and the Patriots success with Randy Moss as a precedent for taking Owens and assisting him in his reformation. I think that this is an inherently flawed comparison, given the fact that the two situations are significantly different in their details: When Moss came on board in NE:
1)Belichick was entering his 7th year as HC, and had won 3 SBs
2)Starting QB, Brady was entering his 6th year as the starter
3)The majority of the rest of the offense had been in NE for at least 3 years
4)The majority of the defense had been in NE for at least 3 years
5)Moss was entering his 10th year in the league
In other words, Moss walked into a franchise with a well-established coaching staff and a strong core of players who had bought into the system.
McDaniels would not have the same advantages in Denver:
1)HC in his 2nd year
2)Starting QB — at best — 2 years
3)50% roster turnover on both sides of the ball over the last 2 years
4)Have yet to show that the team is any better than .500
5)Owens is entering his 15th year in the league
I’m dubious that Owens obvious talent can off-set the other considerations, and I don’t believe that McDaniels is established enough in his position to be able to reform Owens — if Owens needs it (it didn’t work out so well with Brandon Marshall, and I was one of those advocating the position that McDaniels was trying to reform Brandon).
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by BShrout on Jul 21, 2010 5:03 PM MDT reply actions 7 recs
Rec'd Brian, very good points
I really am indifferent on signing Owens. Of course I would support it, and if given the chance to throw my two cents at the front office from the peanut gallery, I would vote in favor ot it, but really I think our offense is going to make strides this year. TO would be a nice rental to have along for the ride if he’s willing to take a lower price. I don’t think he’s as strong a personality as he once was, but darn it he will sell tickets, score touchdowns, and sell merchandise.
If he signs cheap, I throw his past out the window ESPECIALLY with no criminal record, and I bring the dude in. If not, so be it. You move on.
But is he not an upgrade over Brandon Lloyd? Brandon Stokley? Matthew Willis? Kenny McKinley? In terms of potential, absolutely not, but he is a significant upgrade over some roster bubble players, and I for one think he should have a chance to play again this year for a classy organization.
IF his head is on straight. If he makes it through the gauntlet of a workout and interview with the Broncos’ front office who are very peculiar about players they bring in, then we can pretty much consider his past behind him.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:31 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm like you on this sayre -- I'm not going to advocate it, but if it happens I'll support it
This comment of yours:
IF his head is on straight.
is the crucial one. IF his head is on straight, he could prove to be a valuable addition. If it isn’t, I don’t see McDaniels, his staff, and the current roster having the necessary structure and support (ala NE when Randy Moss came aboard) to moderate his personality.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
NO to TO
Five years ago TO was high risk – high reward. Now, he is high risk, low reward.
TOs spats with Garcia, McNabb and Romo are not media creations. TO blaming ESPN further proves his inability to accept responsibility for past actions. It is always someone else’s fault.
We have two first round caliber rookies in Decker and Thomas. I don’t want a primadonna receiver taking their reps. Just say NO to TO.
by ocbroncomaniac on Jul 21, 2010 5:25 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I disagree
on the high risk, low reward. You don’t have to commit a ton to him. If Marshall and Scheffler didn’t tear our locker room apart, what makes you think TO will?
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Ummmmm....
Maybe they didn’t exactly “tear it apart,” but they caused enough disharmony for the TRUE team leaders to come to the head coach about sitting certain people. Would we really want to bring in someone who is likely to encourage more of that?
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
So
You don’t think the guys we already have in the locker room will not let TO become more than what he would be: A ROLE player?
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 22, 2010 9:14 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't think anyone can stop him from doing whatever he wants.
Dawkins was with him in Philly. As were leaders such as McNabb and Westbrook. He shared a locker room in San Fran with none other than Jerry Rice. We see how much that impacted him. That’s my whole point. TO is going to do what TO wants to do. It appears he is one of those people whose brain is wired to whatever feels best to him. If none other than Bill Parcells….he who spawned one of the most successful coaching trees in the NFL, who has won Super Bowls, has revived multiple franschises from the brink of irrelevance….couldn’t get him to put the team ahead of himself, why should we think anyone else will let or not let him become anything. He’s a 15 year vet, and he’s shown for about 13 of those that he is all about getting his.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
I just don't think he carries the same weight
He did in those scenarios when he was younger, one of the highest paid players in the game, putting up gigantic stats. He doesn’t do that anymore. Regardless, with a new news development I have moved on. Check the fanshots!
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 22, 2010 9:28 AM MDT up reply actions
Hahahahahha!!!
oooohhhhh, shiny things!
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
And I agree he doesn't carry the same weight.
But good luck telling his ego that.
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
No kidding
Remind me again who has “controlled” this guy? Oh yah, nobody.
Nobody can ride herd on TO because TO’s ego refuses to allow it. I don’t see how you can make the case that has changed, based on a single year in Buffalo.
A single year does not a trend make- it’s an outlier and statistically insignificant when you’re got 13 other years that show the opposite.
by AllBroncsallday on Jul 22, 2010 2:05 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
No way whatsoever.
Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.
2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
That's bold!
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah, well I just don't want him on the Broncos
I do understand your take on the low risk, high reward thing, however I would pass on him.
Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.
2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
Pat Bowlen needs to save money...spending extra cash on exercise equipment just for T.O. just isn't worth it.
Oh and T.O. is a washed up wide receiver. He is now reaping what he has sowed over the course of his career. You pretend you are bigger than the NFL, the NFL will eventually humble you.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Jul 21, 2010 6:45 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I think the greatest humbling experience you can imagine
for an NFL player is a trip to Buffalo for a full season ;)
I wouldnt wish the Raiders on anyone.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Well it sure didn't humble Randy Moss
Actually seemed to make him worse. T.O. showed he was a bigger man then Moss last season by not complaining and keeping his mouth shut.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 12:41 AM MDT up reply actions
Moss was traded to NE
Owens signed with the Bills as a free agent – his choice.
The prophet Elijah told Ahab that the dogs would lick his blood, and so it came to pass, as you would imagine, since only the successful prophets are remembered.
I know
who cares about that, I was commenting about Oakland and Moss. How he wasn’t humbled, it’s what the past couple comments had been about.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't see it as a waste
Nor would Westbrook have been both players could HELP this team. Both are healthy, experienced veterans.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions
You might not think it is a waste but ...
McD would see it as a waste and then some. He already hit the eject button on a whole lot of guys with a lot more to offer and who were not anywhere near the distraction TO would be. I appreciate that you want to stir the pot but don’t think for a minute that this is a real possibility. The only way it happens is if Al Davis buys the Broncos in the next few days.
by The Wad on Jul 21, 2010 8:41 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lol, OK, whatever!
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 10:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Wow Sayre
bet u didnt bank on having about half these comments out of 250 lol! Great job and again congrats to the SportsNation shoutout!!!!
deep threat
I am sure someone has mentioned this. Just don’t have time right now to read through 250= comments..
TO is a deep threat. Our current starting QB is not. Why would he work for us again? I think even with the potential “low risk, high reward”. He is not a fit for our offense. Just my .02
Proud Colorado native.
Bronco fan since 1973..
Future father of 2 NFL stars.
Actually
That’s incorrect statistically. At least from what I read in the new Broncos annual.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 21, 2010 10:49 PM MDT up reply actions
He'd actually fit in pretty well
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 12:43 AM MDT up reply actions
Imagine the media frenzy..
TO and Tebow media frenzy..That is way to much. Not sure McD and Co would want that much attention.
Sayre I will get the annual today and try to understand the statistics you are referring to. I would love to have a TO type receiver. Don’t get me wrong. Dink and Dunk passing just doesn’t fit TO’s profile. Now if we move away from that, and one of our QB’s can get the ball deep. Ok, it fits.
Proud Colorado native.
Bronco fan since 1973..
Future father of 2 NFL stars.
by timmaybronco on Jul 22, 2010 5:06 AM MDT up reply actions
That picture you choose Sayre says it all. I don't want him on our team.
True team first players is what we seem to have on our team…now you wan’t to go backwards. Will he say mostly the right things in the media…..probably, but he won’t mean them and that’s always fuel to a dangerous fire. Nice job on stiring a conversation that got so many responces though. Can’t wait for the season to start so we can stop talking about who wants who on our team…..and we can start talking about the preformances of our Broncos. Loathing the offseason right now.
From ESPN's Matt Williamson
Owens will get calls a few weeks into training camp when decision-makers realize that their wide receiver corps is not as strong as they had hoped or a prominent wideout goes down with an injury. I do believe that he will play in 2010, but I just don’t see the fit right now. Owens can still produce in a complementary receiver role. And I think he will be motivated to prove everyone wrong.
What does Owens have left and are there any teams out there that are good matches? Few players Owens’ age keep themselves in as great of physical condition. Again, this goes back to his competitiveness and self pride in his performance. Few work as hard and it shows.
A lot of the buzz is that Owens will catch on a team who loses a guy to injury, but he won’t sign with a non-contender team, which is understandable. Let’s see…who of our receivers have injury problems…
Thomas and Decker have not been able to participate fully in OTA’s because of injury, Brandon Stokley might earn the nickname Reggie-Ray if he gets another concussion, Eddie Royal has been banged up in each of the last two seasons. Brandon Lloyd has an injury history. Kenny McKinley finished the season on IR….
Yada, yada, yada.
I could spout off on this all day. I’m not saying a TO to Denver signing is imminent. In fact, FAR from that. By no means do have some kind of notion that we’re getting/pursuing Owens. But it’s been ruled out too quickly by many on this thread for things he did pre-2009 season.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 22, 2010 12:05 AM MDT reply actions
Great points
If we lose Gaffney or Royal in the first few games, we’re going to be wish we had someone, cause if we lose even one of our starting receivers, we are pretty short on quality depth.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 12:44 AM MDT up reply actions
It is
But considering our history of players getting hurt, it’s more like a fact someone will go down.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by maxwellsdemon on Jul 22, 2010 10:25 AM MDT up reply actions
"Self-pride in his performance."
And drive to be a great teammate, win championships, make others around him better wait, what? Ummmmmm……oh well, at least he does cool things with popcorn!!!
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
Trust me people...he really can spout off on this all day long.
"Precipitation, which side are you on?
Are you on the rise? Are you falling down?
Let me know, Come on let's go, yeah
Got some if you need it!" -EV
It's Simple
He’s 36. Diminishing skills. There’s a reason he’s on the free agent market.
by Remember Keith Kartz! on Jul 22, 2010 8:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Yep
And there’s also multiple reasons he’s never stayed there.
A vision without a plan is just a dream. A plan without a vision is drudgery. But a vision with a plan can change the world.
by Sayre Bedinger on Jul 22, 2010 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions
Battered Spouse Syndrome
“I’m taking him back because he’s learned his lesson and will never hurt me again.”
"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."
by Alan_Smithee on Jul 23, 2010 10:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Why not?
Listen if things get bad, McD will bench him, we all know he isnt afraid to do that. We have tons of veterans with way more influence than TO in the locker room, remember he will be a new guy coming in. At worst we lose a roster spot and some cash… at best he’s the next Randy Moss.
just say N-O
To TO
2009 Season Motto: TAKE IT!! TAKE IT!! TAAAAAAAKE IT!!!!!
The best powder is pure, light, dry Colorado powder!!
Go Broncos!!!!!
by powderaddict on Jul 22, 2010 6:47 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
Don Banks at SI said it well:
Everybody wants to know which team is eventually going to break down and sign Terrell Owens, giving him that fifth different NFL team on his resume. My pat answer is this: Tell me which team is going to be the first to lose a No. 1 or No. 2 receiver to a significant injury this preseason and I’ll tell you the team that’s going to pick up the phone and give T.O. a buzz — provided, you know, that the team isn’t San Francisco, Philadelphia, Dallas or Buffalo. Oh, and you can add Miami (Bill Parcells is there) and Washington (Donovan McNabb) to that list.
The prophet Elijah told Ahab that the dogs would lick his blood, and so it came to pass, as you would imagine, since only the successful prophets are remembered.
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