If The 2010 Season Is 'Lost', Why Start Tim Tebow??
Ryan Clady, Elvis Dumervil, Knowshon Moreno, Correll Buckhalter . . .
As the list of Broncos injured in the off season and/or training camp grows, so do questions regarding the kind of season Denver can be expected to have in 2010. What has concerned me in this on-going litany of problems facing the Broncos is whether or not Denver can be competitive in 2010, but rather, the number of comments that I’ve seen that have declared -- before even a single preseason game has been played -- that 2010 is a lost year.
I’m seeing more and more comments about how Denver can expect, at best, to win 4 to 6 games in the coming season. A spin-off based upon that assumption is an equally growing sentiment in some circles that since the season is already lost, the team should go ahead and name Tim Tebow the starter and give him a chance to gain valuable NFL experience when there will be no pressure to win, since chances are Denver won’t win anyway.
I have issues with both of those propositions on at least two levels, and I’ll share those after the jump.
Player/Position/Injury/Notes
1)Josh Barrett, DB, Shoulder, Waived & Picked up by New England
2)Demaryius Thomas, WR, Foot, Questionable for Aug 15 vs Cin
3)Eric Decker, WR, Leg, Questionable for Aug 15 vs Cin
4)Jarvis Moss, LB, Hand, Questionable for start of Regular Season
5)Elvis Dumervil, LB, Chest, Out for start of Regular Season, may miss 2010 Season
6)Jamal Williams, DL, Elbow, Questionable for Aug 15 vs Cin
7)Ronald Fields, DL, Side, Questionable for Aug 15 vs Cin
8)Correll Buckhalter, RB, Back, Questionable for Aug 15 vs Cin
9)Knowshon Moreno, RB, Hamstring, Doubtful for Aug 15 vs Cin, probable for start of regular season
10)Kenny McKinley, WR, Not specified, IR
11)Darrell Reid, LB, Knee, PUP
12)Ryan Clady, OT, Knee, Have not seen update on him
When I look at that injury list, it appears to me that the overwhelming majority of them will be available, if not in the preseason, then at least by the start of the regular season. Based on that information alone, I would find it hard toargue in favor of the view that the 2010 season is lost.
Not only that, but IMHO, it is far too early to declare exactly what effect those injuries will have on the team and the season. We have yet to see the current roster of players perform in a game situation. Thus, we have no basis on which to determine whether or not they have gelled as a team, the degree of comparative skill under pressure, etc, etc. Add in to that, we have not yet seen in what ways the coaching staff will adapt/modify/change their original plans to emphasize the strengths of the players that they will have available. So, at this point in time, it is as plausible to posit the view that some of the newer players will rise to the challenge and excel, as it is to hold to the view that we cannot, at least, match last year's performance. It is my opinion that we will need to wait until the middle of the season before we can determine whether or not the season is "lost."
As a side observation, if we choose to not embrace the view that the 2010 season is already a lost cause, much of the rationale for throwing Tebow into the starter's role in 2010 vanishes. However, that would not be the only reason that I, personally, would prefer not to see Tebow named the starter.
My first hesitancy on this issue is based on my own experiences as a teacher. It concerns me when someone wants to put an untried person into a situation in which little or nothing is expected of him. Putting Tebow in, when the expectations for team success are very low, is a very good way to teach Tebow how to not be successful. It has been my experience that students -- be they minors or adults (and I have taught both) -- will do their utmost to achieve at the level of expectations that are set for them. If the expectations are high, they will try to rise to them. If the expectations are set low, they will be content to glide along at that level.
Another point of concern is the often stated questions about how well the offensive line can be expected to perform, given the injuries to Clady and Kuper. If we are anticipating a poor showing by the o-line, do we really want to risk our first round draft pick QB behind it? Do we want Tebow to take that kind of pounding? Think about the career of David Carr: the first overall pick in the 2002 draft. He was put behind an offensive line on an expansion team and was sacked 76 times for a loss of 411 yards in his rookie season.
From where I sit, when looking at the issue of the development of a young quarterback, if the season is lost, the last thing I would want to see is Tebow put in and be allowed to make losing a habit. From a developmental point of view, starting Tebow if the team is expected to fail, simply does not make much sense.
The other concern I have with making Tebow a starter as a rookie is the "coin-flip" nature of success for first round rookie quarterbacks. It would be nice to say that QBs who were chosen in the first round and played as rookies experienced great success.
Unfortunately, this is not necessarily the case. In some instances they did. In others they did not. I went back and looked at the quarterbacks who were first round picks in the years 2000-2009. I looked to see who sat before become the primary starter, who played more than a couple, but less than half the games of their rookie season, and those who were the primary starters for their teams during their rookie seasons. There were 26 quarterbacks picked in the first round during that span. 8 of them sat for at least a year. 6 of them played some of their rookie year. 12 were the primary starter for their team as a rookie. Here are the twenty-six:
Players Who Sat at Least a Year
Chad Pennington, NYJ, 2000, Michael Vick, Atl, 2001, Carson Palmer, Cin, 2003
Philip Rivers (NYG)/SD, 2004, J. P. Losman, Buf, 2004, Aaron Rodgers, GB, 2005
Jason Campbell, Was, 2005, JaMarcus Russell, Oak, 2007
Players Who Started Multiple Games as a Rookie
Patrick Ramsey, Was, 2002, Rex Grossman, Chi, 2003, Eli Manning (SD)/NYG, 2004
Alex Smith, SF, 2005, Jay Cutler, Den, 2006, Brady Quinn, Cle, 2007
Players Who Were the Primary Starter as a Rookie
David Carr, Hou, 2002. Joey Harrington, Det, 2002, Byron Leftwich, Jax, 2003
Kyle Boller, Bal, 2003, Ben Roethlisberger, Pit, 2004, Vince Young, Ten, 2006
Matt Leinert, Ari, 2006, Matt Ryan, Atl, 2008, Joe Flacco, Bal, 2008
Matthew Stafford, Det 2009, Mark Sanchez, NYJ, 2009, Josh Freeman, TB, 2009
We can see from the table above, that the majority of first round QB picks were named their team's primary starter as a rookie. Some of that may have had to do with where they were picked in the draft -- that is, the higher the draft pick, the worse the team had done in the previous year, and by extension, the more in need the team was. Another way to look at these players is by their relative positions in the draft.
Draft Position - Players Who Sat
Chad Pennington, 18th, Michael Vick, 1st, Carson Palmer, 1st
Philip Rivers, 4th, J. P. Losman, 22nd, Aaron Rodgers, 24th
Jason Campbell, 25th, JaMarcus Russell, 1st
Draft Position - Players Who Started Some
Patrick Ramsey, 32nd, Rex Grossman, 22nd, Eli Manning, 1st
Alex Smith, 1st, Jay Cutler, 11th, Brady Quinn, 22nd
Draft Position - Rookie Starters
David Carr, 1st, Joey Harrington, 3rd, Byron Leftwich 7th
Kyle Boller, 19th, Ben Roethlisberger, 11th, Vince Young, 3rd
Matt Leinert, 10th, Matt Ryan, 3rd, Joe Flacco, 18th
Matthew Stafford, 1st, Mark Sanchez, 5th, Josh Freeman 17th
What I found surprising in this table is the fact that more of the QBs who were the 1st overall pick of their draft either sat, or saw limited duty their rookie year (5) as opposed to those who were thrown into the fire right off (2). The majority of the late 1st rounders (pick 20+) either sat or saw limited duty. Of those who were the primary starters as rookies, 2 were 1st overall picks, 6 were in the top 10, and 4 were in picks 11-20. Of the 6 in the top 10, 4 were taken with picks 2-5.
What this would seem to suggest is that, on the average, the tendency among teams was to either sit, or have play in limited duty thei very top picks, and the very late picks in the first round, while those chosen with picks 2-5 tended to be named starters as rookies. It is interesting to note that not a single QB taken in rounds 20-32 were named the primary starter for their team in their rookie year.
Another approach in analyzing the question of whether or not to start a first round rookie QB is to look at their records in their first season as the primary starter (please remember that to qualify as the primary starter, the QB had to have been the starter in the majority of the games in a given season):
Players Who Sat
Pennington 8-4, Vick 8-6-1, Palmer 8-8
Rivers 14-2, Losman 1-7, Rodgers 6-10
Campbell 6-7, Russell 5-10
Players With Some Starts (Rookie Season)/1st Season as Primary
Ramsey (2-3) 4-7, Grossman (2-1) 13-3, Manning (1-6) 11-5
Smith (2-5) 7-9, Cutler (2-3) 7-9, Quinn (0-0), 2-7
Rookie Starters
Carr 4-12, Harrington 3-9, Leftwich 5-8
Boller 5-4, Roethlisberger 13-0, Young 8-5
Leinert 4-7, Flacco 11-5, Ryan 11-5
Stafford 2-8, Sanchez 8-7, Freeman 3-6
This table gives us a preliminary look at how these 1st round QBs fared in their first season as a primary starter. Among those who sat their rookie year, 3 had seasons above .500, 1 was at .500, and 4 had sub .500 seasons. Among those who saw limited action, only 1 posted a winning record in that limited action, and in their first season as the primary, 2 had above .500 season, while the other 4 were all below .500. Out of the 12 who were primary starters as rookies, 6 had above .500 seasons and 6 had sub .500 ones.
According to this date, it would appear that the choice to sit, play sparingly, or start a 1st round rookie is pretty much a coin toss. It may come up successful, or it may not. It should be noted, however, that the worst scenario seemed to fall upon those who started only a portion of their rookie season, since on 1 of the 6 had a winning record in that rookie campaign, only 2 had winning seasons when they finally became the primary starter. Let's take a look and see what can be discerned by looking at these players' records over the course of their careers to date.
Career Records - Those Who Sat
Pennington 43-37 (.537), Vick 38-28 (.574), Palmer 42-39 (.518)
Rivers 46-18 (.718), Losman 10-23 (.303), Rodgers 17-15 (.531)
Campbell 20-32 (.384), Russell 7-18 (.280)
Career Records - Limited Starts
Ramsey 10-14 (.416), Grossman 19-12 (.612), Manning 50-37 (.574)
Smith 16-24 (.410), Cutler 24-29 (.452), Quinn 3-9 (.250)
Career Records - Rookie Starters
Carr 23-56 (.291), Harrington 26-50 (.342), Leftwich 24-25 (.489)
Boller 20-26 (.434), Roethlisberger 60-26 (.697), Young 26-13 (.666)
Leinert 7-10 (.411), Ryan 20-10 (.666), Flacco 20-12 (.625)
Stafford 2-8 (.200), Sanchez 8-7 (.533), Freeman 3-6 (.333)
This, IMHO, becomes a more significant pattern than simply looking at the rookie season and/or 1st season as a primary starter. Among the 8 who sat their first year, 5 have career records above .500, while 3 have sub .500 records. Among the 6 who started some games, only 2 have career records above .500. Among the 12 who were rookie starters, 5 have above .500 career records while 7 have sub .500 records. As a side note, it should be pointed out that, among the 5 +.500 rookie starters, 2 only have 2 seasons on their resume, and 1 has played only a single season.
I'd like to a look at these 26 players from one more angle -- although I acknowledge there are many additional angles that could be explored -- and that is the number of teams each QB has played for over the course of his career.
Number of Teams -- Those Who Sat
Pennington 2, Vick 2, Palmer 1
Rivers 1, Losman 2, Rodgers 1
Campbell 1, Russell 1
Number of Teams -- Limited Starters
Ramsey 3, Grossman 2, Manning 1
Smith 1, Cutler 2, Quinn 2
Number of Teams -- Rookie Starters
Carr 3, Harrington 3, Leftwich 4
Boller 2, Roethlisberger 1, Young 1
Leinert 1, Ryan 1, Flacco 1
Stafford 1, Sanchez 1, Freeman 1
When we look at this table, we see that 5 of the 8 who sat their rookie season have played for a single team, as compared to 2 out of 6 (limited starters) and 8 out of 12 (rookie starters). It should be noted, that out of the rookie starters, 3 have only played for a single team. If we remove them from that groups count, then you only have 5 out of 9 who have played for a single team. Further, another 2 have only played 2 seasons, so if they are removed, the count becomes 3 out of 7. Just as with career records, longevity with a team is also something of a coin toss when it comes to starting a first round QB as a rookie, with those who sat more likely to stick with a single team, and the worst case scenario falling on those who started just a few games as rookies.
I'd like to offer up one final thought/view of this topic before opening it up for discussion. In January of 2010, bleacherreport.com published an article by Jon Schuman that gave a list (which is open to debate) of the ten, currently playing quarterbacks who should be considered the best in the NFL. I thought it might be interesting to see how these 10 QBs served their teams during their rookie seasons.
Player/Round Drafted/Started or Sat/Record in 1st Season as the Primary Starter
P. Manning, 1st, Started, 3-13
D. Brees, 2nd, Sat, 8-8
A. Rodgers, 1st, Sat, 6-10
T. Brady, 6th, Sat, 11-3
P. Rivers, 1st, Sat, 14-2
B. Favre, 2nd, Sat, 8-5
M. Schaub, 3rd, Sat, 4-7
T. Romo, Undrafted, Sat, 6-4
B.Roethlisberger, 1st, Started, 13-0
K. Warner*, Undrafted, Sat, 13-3
*this article was published prior to Warner's announcement of his retirement
Two things surprised me in compiling this list: (1)That 8 out of the 10 QBs considered to be among the best in the league, sat their rookie season. Then when they did start, 5 of those 8 had winning records, 1 had a .500 season, and only 2 posted losing records. Of the two who started their rookie season, 1 had a great season (13-0) while the other had a disastrous one (3-13). Though it should be noted that both of those QBs have gone on to have strong careers.
What all of this has brought me to are two basic conclusions:
(1)I'm not at all convinced that the rash of injuries we have seen so far in training camp mean that the 2010 season is lost, nor that it creates a certainty that the season will be particularly bad.
(2)From a developmental point of view, from McDaniels' repeated statements that Tebow "has a long way to go," and from the evidence of the historical record in regards to the careers of 1st round rookie QBs being the primary starter, I'm not convinced that it would be in the best interests of the Broncos, nor of Tim Tebow, to put him in that position.
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"....I’m not convinced that it would be in the best interests of the Broncos, nor of Tim Tebow to put him in that position."
This is a classic understatement.
It's pretty scary when you have a moment of temporary sanity. Nelson DeMille
It is isn't it? ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions
one problem is the Broncos history which transpired from the Elway Experience. Of course the team did not win at first, but the hype and talent “out-performed” results early. I AM NOT comparing the two, I promise.
Anyway, no reason to start Tebow when we’re going 11-5 this yr.
Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan
by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 9:59 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Unfortunately, all of Broncos' history tends to be viewed
through the lens of the Reeves/Elway/Shanahan years.
I’m of the opinion that just as the McDaniels led Broncos struggled with and did not deal well with the adversity of losing, we as fans have also gone through that same process of struggling with the mediocre & losing times.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
11-5 Is my call too!
The difference this year from last year is the D-line will be much better. And the offense, assuming the new kids can block a little, will be much more in sync. Orton is lightyears ahead of last year at this time. Quinn and Tebow will be just fine too. No worries mates!
by John in Castle Rock on Aug 14, 2010 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I can live with 11-5 ;-p
and hopefully a playoff game or two.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions
The season is not lost!
The only major player we have lost this season is Doom, beyond that we will have the rest of the player for the regular season. I not worried!
I would add Clady as a major player who is down
but I agree that the season is not lost, nor am I particularly worried at this point in time.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 11:51 AM MDT up reply actions
Doom may return for part of this year
I haven’t seen details of the tear – where, how much, etc. However, McD has commented twice that we might see him back late in the season. That could be whistling past the graveyard, or simple fact. It’s similar to Clady – according to McD, he may be back for Week 1. In what shape, we’re not told……..lol
Gnothi Seauton
Someone at the Denver Post
..was swearing up and down a couple days ago that Doom WILL return this year, most likely sometime between weeks 10 and 13 or so. I think it was Klis? Granted, he’s not my favorite writer in the world, but he’s definitely got better access to the situation than any of us have.
I’d like to see someone in addition to him saying it though before I get my hopes up.
If we only win 4-6 games
To funny.
I am going on record right now that the Broncos will win at least 8 as long as Orton stays healthy.
Living in Tampa Bay and the knuckleheads we have coaching the Buc and they win 3 games in 2009……. That is all I need to say.
It will be the defense that shines this year and the offense will only get better as the season goes on.
We do need to take it one game at a time and I will go on record that we will beat the Jags in game one and break the myth that we can’t play in the hot humid Fl Climate.
"3 and Out Baby" I ride the short bus!
I think we'll see improvement in all three aspects of the game
It is my hope that the team will be able to sustain their game throughout the season.
I agree that we will most likely see 8 or more wins and that Orton’s health will be a key part of that.
I’d love to see us win game 1, that has been a problematic area for us in the recent past.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Since scottwchicago said "Jags," we're obviously talking regular season here...
…so how is winning Game 1 a problematic area in the recent past when a simple search through the Denver Broncos’ official website will show you (or anyone else) that, going back an entire decade, the team only lost Game 1 in 2000, 2005 and 2006, which means, of course, that the Broncos not only won Game 1 in 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004, but also in 2007, 2008 and 2009?
I think
he was talking more about the difficulty of winning in the southeast with it’s heat and humidity (plus time zone changes) in an early season game, rather than winning game 1 period.
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap.
Based upon the following facts, I don't think so...
Broncos regular season opening games from the past 10-years:
2009 the Bengals at Paul Brown Stadium (East North Central region)
2008 the Raiders at McAfee Coliseum (Pacific region)
2007 the Bills at Ralph Wilson Stadium (Mid-Atlantic region or northeast)
2006 the Rams in Saint Louis, MO (West North Central region)
2005 the Dolphins at Dolphins Stadium (South Atlantic region or southeast)
2004 the Chiefs at Invesco Mile High
2003 Bengals at Paul Brown Stadium (East North Central region)
2002 Rams at Invesco Mile High
2001 Giants at Invesco Mile High
2000 Rams at Trans World Dome (West North Central region)
In the past decade, the Broncos have only played its regular season opener in the heat and humidity of the southeast just once, so how is winning Game 1 problematic in the recent past when it only happened once in the last ten years?
I think the point has little to do with the fact that it's game 1.
Your stats show that there aren’t enough data to draw a conclusion about game 1 in the southeast.
I just remember some drubbings the Broncos have taken at the hands of the Dolphins in Miami and the Jags in Jacksonville. The Jags have just run over us in the past several games we’ve played against them, especially in Jacksonville. I tend to attribute it to our previous system being ill-prepared to deal with physical football teams rather than the humidity. I am excited to see how the new system fares against Jack Del Rio’s team of tanks, especially since the Jags aren’t expected to be all that great this season.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
I stand corrected
that’s one of those oddball things that were incorrectly remembered
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 10:30 PM MDT up reply actions
For the record...
…the Broncos, since 2000, have only lost 3 opening day games in the regular season (2000, 2005 and 2006), which means, of course, that they’ve also won their last three openers. Just sharing :-)
Sorry, BShrout, just realized that...
…I pretty much said this to you before. Clearly, you don’t have the market on incorrectly remembered things.
I'm not sure what the numbers really mean
But I agree with both your conclusions. It isn’t a lost year until they’re not moving forward. And, if it is a lost season, why on earth would you start a rookie. It is clear from your last list that only Payton Manning was able to survive a horrendous rookie season and become a great QB.
thanks DCJ
I’m not sure what the numbers mean either. LOL I just look for patterns in them.
Plus, there are so many aspects of the game that the QB cannot control, that contribute to his success or failure. Look at Manning & Roethlisberger:
After a 6-10 season, Pittsburgh drafted Roethlisberger & started him as a rookie. He had a defense that ranked #1 in both points and yards that season, surrendering an average of 15.6 points per game. His defense had 5 games of 7 or less points, and 8 games of 17 or less. Result: Big Ben goes 13-0.
After a 3-13 season, Indianapolis drafted Manning & started him as a rookie. He had a defense that ranked 29th in both points and yards that season, surrendering an average of 27.75 points per game. His defense had 14 games of 20 or more points, 12 games of 24 or more points and 4 games of 30 or more points. Result: Peyton goes 3-13.
We need to see the Broncos be solid on both sides of the ball. And I agree with McDaniels’ stance that the best player will play. I’m simply concerned that at this point in time, Tebow is not that player.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
You are right.
Everything coming out of Dove Valley suggests Orton is the starter. No, it doesn’t merely suggest it – Dove Valley is screaming with klaxons blaring that Orton is the starter. I appreciate your work on this, and I have seen all this TebowTalk, too, but when are people going to realize that Orton is our best chance to win?
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
A much needed article.
Remember the days when quarterbacks actually sat on the bench and learned from the veteran when they were a rookie?
It seems like the NFL has been swooped up in this hysteria of starting a rookie QB because of success stories like Matt Ryan and Sanchez and even Stafford.
Let Tebow sit and learn and get those mechanics locked into his mind to the point that it is automatic for him. I wouldn’t even be surprised if he didn’t start next season either. Let Tebow learn. Besides I never understood the need to rush a QB unless you have no better options. We have options, a really good one in Orton.
I agree
Let Tebow learn.
While Ryan, Flacco & Sanchez had success as rookies, it remains to be seen whether or not they can sustain that success over their careers. IMHO, the historical record doesn’t support the view that they necessarily will.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Agree
The only reason they have (Flacco, Sanchez)success is the have a great defense.
Same with Roethlisberger.
by OrangeBroncos on Aug 14, 2010 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions
just throwing it out there…what if the D is playing crazy good, but the offense sputters? Thats when it might get dicey in Bronco-land.
Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan
by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions
PITT does have a good defense, (as does Baltimore, Atlanta and in lesser degree, the Jets, too.)
They, like Baltimore and a few others, have good offenses, good defenses and adequate to good STs. It’s not just one thing, carrying the others. That’s the biggest area of concept that people seem to drop – if you talk about one part of Denver, there’s a tendency to say that the ‘defense will have to carry them’. If you look at the victories last year, many were when all cylinders functioned, not when one carried the other. David Bruton was asked (by me) to point out the differences between two games, one a loss, one a win. His comment was “We played complementary football this time”. It’s a more important issue than it gets credit for.
Gnothi Seauton
A very good running game is very helpful too
Look at the backs Atlanta and Baltimore have, some of the best.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
The funny part is that Orton is apart of that success
Orton followed Big Ben as a rookie starter and the rest followed those two . The media and most fans just ignore it though.
I think that when Tebows ready to start we will know it it wont really be any debate . I think there are quite a few people who think so little of Ortons play last year that they think anyone couldve done it and that feeds the rush to get him on the field .
And Orton started as a rookie, due to Grossman's injury
even though it was believed that he needed 3-4 years to develop, and still posted a winning record since he had an awesome defense, just like Roethlisberger did.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 2:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Great article...Thanks
Agree with both conclusions and would also add; no body knows the team chemistry & camaradrie yet under fire and won’t until the season starts. I believe this team is better than a year ago. Hopefully, it translate into more wins & exciting season by finishing strong and into the playoffs.
As Anthony Robbins once stated “Together Everyone Accomplishes More” T.E.A.M.
John Wooden always believed that “Adversity is Your Asset”
oc60
"I'd rather have a lot of talent and a little experience than a lot of experience and a little talent." John Wooden
no body knows the team chemistry & camaradrie yet under fire and won’t until the season starts
That is a key point — a lot will depend on how well the team comes together and plays as a single entity.
Love the Robbins’ quote — my superintendent just posted that as the district’s theme for the year.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions
Interesting
Just to mix things up a bit, please consider the following questions:
1-Out of the rookie QBs who started right away, how many were on teams that had no viable starter ahead of them? I expect the coach to start the best players available, even if they are rookies.
2-Of the rookie QBs who started right away, how many were on teams that needed to generate some excitement to put butts in the seats? Coaches and/or teams in desperate situations regarding their fan base will sometimes make decisions based more on marketing than winning. Sam Bradford may find himself in this situation this year.
3-How much does a QB learn from watching, compared to playing? This is an old question. Sure, rookies make mistake, but if they learn from them they may be better the next year from the experience gained. Peyton Manning, for example?
Now, for my comments. I do not believe that this season is lost. Every year we hear this when the unavoidable injuries begin to mount up. Repeat after me now: EVERY TEAM SUFFERS INJURIES! THEY ARE A PART OF THE GAME! The measure of a good team is how they deal with injuries. One of the things I have admired about the hated Pats is their ability to simply plug in new players and seemingly not miss a beat even with apparently major injuries. I think I speak for many of us when I say that I have hoped that McD would bring some of the admirable qualities from the Pats to our team.
Regarding Tebow and whether he should start. Tebow will start when he gives us the best chance to win, and not before. The Broncos are not desperate to fill the stadium, nor is the coaches job on the line. McD will start whichever QB is the best option. That being said, I would submit that I don’t see it as out of the question for Tebow to start sometime this season. First, as we have seen, injuries do happen. If Orton goes down, Coach will be faced with the choice between Quinn and Tebow. Depending on how fast Tebow develops, I would not be surprised if the rookie wins that competition. Second, even with a healthy Orton, Tebow brings a different skill set to the game. Would anyone argue that Tebow, with his athletic talents, might be able to make plays that Orton cannot? How many plays were lost last year when Orton had open receivers but could not avoid the rush to extend the play? Once again, depending entirely on how fast Tebow develops, I can see the scenario where the Coach decides that, even with the expected rookie mistakes, Tebow might give us the best opportunity to win. If the Coach makes that decision, I will support it.
Mind you, I am not arguing for Tebow to start, either game 1 or later in the season. I tend to play the Devil’s Advocate in discussions, and am simply pointing out that I can see scenarios where he might start, and that it might not be as bad as some make it out to be.
Good points, thanks for adding them in
You pose some intriguing questions, I’ll have to do some digging & see if I can find some preliminary answers.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree with your perspective. Orton’s success or failure (injury, results, etc…) will determine whether Tebow will start or not.
Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan
by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 3:48 PM MDT up reply actions
In a perfect world, Tebow sits
…until he’s in year 3 or 4. Because that would mean Orton has turned into a stud, and the Broncos are a team to be reckoned with in the AFC — on all sides of the ball.
by JeffG on Aug 14, 2010 11:00 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
I like the idea of rookie QBs being given an opportunity to develop without the pressure of carrying the team as a rookie
A number of the guys who sat their rookie year, did make a few appearances in games, but were not put in the position of being “the starter.” I’m of the opinion that helped them over the course of their careers.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
Which brings up a question...
How many of the players that sat and have had successful careers thus far actually sat for more than one season? Is there any correlation between number of seasons spent on the bench learning vs. success at this level?
by BroncoSauce on Aug 14, 2010 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
To a certain degree I think there is
but I’d have to go back and revisit the original data.
For example I know that Rodgers sat for 3 years, but that had as much to do with Favre not retiring as anything else. I know that there were a couple who sat for 2 years.
Some of that may have been from the fact that the QB was not ready. Some of it may have had to do with the fact that the team was still putting the pieces in place to help the QB.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Rivers sat for 2 years behind Brees
It seems like the extra time on the bench did both him and Rodgers well.
"He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lamp-posts... for support rather than illumination."
- Andrew Lang (1844-1912)
Thanks Brian
When I did my post on this topic, I found that it is just so much more viable to let the rookie sit, or get a few snaps in his first season. With the “success” of Ryan and Flacco in the past two years, people often forget there’s been a decade of mostly failures who start game one of their careers.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Very good point MD
People even tend to forget Manning’s first season. ;-p
I think it’s human nature to want that next great Hall of Fame player to be who will come in and from day 1 light it up and return the team to glory.
However, I think that the teams that have proven themselves to be consistent contenders have followed a different path to get there — one of careful, intentional development.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Nice Job.....
Question….you mentioned Kuper’s injury in the article , but his Injury is not on your list of injuries. I’d love to see an update on his status and when he is expected to be back.
second, i believe that when you were saying that : “It should be noted, that out of the rookie starters, 3 have only played for a single team. If we remove them from that groups count, then you only have 5 out of 9 who have played for a single team. Further, another 2 have only played 2 seasons, so if they are removed, the count becomes 3 out of 7.”
I’m sure that you mean to put that “3 have only played a single season”.
Great read, very valid points. The season is far from over! Go Broncos!
Never, Never, Never Quit - Winston Churchill
Talent is God given: Be Humble. Fame is Man given: Be Thankful. Conceit is Self given: Be Careful. - John Wooden
by Brandon Gilchrist on Aug 14, 2010 11:56 AM MDT reply actions
Last I saw Kuper was not on the injury list
and I believe Kirk’s training camp articles have made mention of his being in at least some practice sessions. I’d have to go back and check that though.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:18 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes he is hurt
and won’t play tomorrow since he hasn’t practiced this week. I believe he will be back soon. Definitely before the regular season starts. Week to week.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Nice job BShrout!
You make a solid point on not starting Tebow if the 2010 season is lost. I for one don’t think it is lost because as you said we haven’t played a game yet and you need to see how guys will do against other opponents in game time situations. Even if the season is "lost’, I for one would want a veteran guy like Orton who will be able to make quick decisions. He has been there and would know what to do more than a rookie.
Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.
2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant
It's been stated over and over and over again....
But we simply cannot compare Tebow to other rookie first rounders. McD makes no bones about the fact that they are trying to work out some mechanical issues with Tebow’s wind-up and delivery. Maybe the MSM is overblowing just how much work he needs, but Doc did some articles on effectively “teaching” muscle memory. Why rush Tebow and put him in a position where all the work he’s been doing up until now might be lost in a split second? For what the team invested to get him, I would much prefer the Steve McNair approach. For my money, I still think Tebow/McNair is the comparison that makes the most sense.
Oh, and I agree it’s maddening to hear the season is “lost.” Injuries are part of the game. As are lesser-known players stepping up when their team needs them the most. Maybe people around these parts have heard the name Terrell Davis? Rod Smith?
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
by ncm42 on Aug 14, 2010 12:02 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Nice points
And I had not thought to compare Tebow to McNair — hey NCM, maybe you could do a post on that (hint hint) ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Dammit, here it is!
http://www.milehighreport.com/2010/5/11/1468160/who-does-tim-tebow-compare-to-this
Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan
by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Hhahahah
Third time’s a charm! Thanks for posting that! And B…I think I dodged a bullet. I don’t think I could do the analysis justice worthy of being on MHR! ;)
- Nick
"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu
"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth
Wins vs Losses
McDaniels has NEVER been associated with a losing team. He WILL find a way to have at least an 8-8 season. He manages his people well when his ego does not get in the way. I’m still sore about the benching of key players last year, especially when the Broncos had an outside chance at the playoffs. Short yardage specialist Hillis was kept on the bench.
when his ego does not get in the way
This issue has been hashed & rehashed multiple times.
There’s been a lot written about the benching of Marshall and Scheffler, most of which acknowledge that it occurred after other team leaders had approached McDaniels and asked him to hold their teammates accountable. Do I think the coach should have called Marshall out publically? Not particularly, but that was the only point of disagreement I had on the issue. I certainly disliked Scheffler’s comments about wishing the season were over.
The Hillis issue likewise has been discussed at length. From what I can tell, part of the problem was that Hillis wasn’t picking up the offense particularly quickly. There were a number of instances when Hillis had to be redirected as to where to line up, had missed blocks, and other mental errors. I’m inclined to believe that those are the reason that he sat more than he played.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
When his ego..........
I guess we will just have to wait and see. Hillis was a McDaniels darling in training camp. Blocking, good hands, and could carry the load on short yardage.Not bad as a return man either. Management demands obedience from its’ workers and to park your car because it backfired once is pretty stupid from the standpoint of getting from point A to B. McDaniels parked the car in the final game.
I predict that Hillis will have a star type year with Cleveland. As I said at the beginning; we will just have to wait and see!
Agreed, we will just have to wait and see
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Orton
will never be a stud NFL qb jeffg. This is Orton’s last year as a Bronco because McDaniels’s long term success or failure as the Broncos head coach is going to depend on how Tebow turns out. Three years from now Tebow will be a great nfl qb and McDaniels will be in the middle of a long coaching career in Denver or Tebow is a bust and McDaniels is an offensive coordinator in another city and Bowlen is starting over with a new front office, new coaching staff, and another new qb. I hope the first scenario plays out so I although I don’t think Tebow will start this year I have no doubt he will play in special packages in every game and be the starter next season with Orton gone.
I would have to disagree to a point
McDaniels’s long term success or failure as the Broncos head coach is going to depend on how Tebow turns out
Personally, I think McDaniels’ long term success/failure in Denver is tied to whether or not he can get the Broncos back into the playoffs and how quickly that happens, irregardless of who the QB is.
I think if Orton has a break-out year, and Tebow has not overtaken him by training camp in 2011, we’ll see Orton back.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree with this as well. I think one of the biggest assumptions Ive seen that somehow is done with Orton his comments this past week lead me to believe hes not and that he views Orton as a qb that hes developing hes just at a more advanced stage
than either Tebow or Quinn.
Someone posted this on the DB.com MB the other day I thought it came from the potent quoatbles but was directly from the broncos mainsite
On QB Kyle Orton
"I think that his play has been steady, I think very impressive at times and most days very consistent in terms of he knows the offense so well now, he can operate everything we want him to do. He’s communicating so much better now with the other players on the offense before the ball is snaps which helps answer lot of problems before they actually occur. When you’re initially thrust into a system, that sometimes is the thing that takes the longest to improve upon and last year I don’t think we were at that point in the preseason.
This year he’s signaling routes, he’s changing protections more. He’s answering a lot of problems with the tools he has and the things he has available to him and I think that’s really a big thing for our offense in general. He’s eliminated most every bad play we could get into which is great. He’s made a lot of big throws down the field. We’ve changed, certainly a lot of things that we’re doing and being a little bit more aggressive in some areas and he’s really done that well. He’s efficient, he’s been aggressive, he’s done a great job in the two-minute offense – we scored a lot of points in the two-minute so far which certainly isn’t great for our defense but one side has got to win but he’s done a nice job andwe’re very pleased with where we’re at there.
"He’s on time, he’s accurate – he’s always been accurate. He is stronger than he was last year, which has shown up in some of the intermediate routes
against tight coverage because again, He’s throwing against (CB) Champ (Bailey) and (CB André Goodman) "Goody" and (S Renaldo Hill) and (S Brian
Dawkins) "Dawk" and (CB) Nate Jones. He’s thrown against the first-team defense most of the time. He’s had a very accurate, very impressive first 12 or 13 practices here. We’ve just got to keep improving because we still have a long way to go and I think he would agree that he’s got a much higher ceiling."
On whether QB Kyle Orton’s healthy ankle has helped his mechanics
"His wheels don’t take him very far (laughing). He’s healthy, he’s able to move in the pocket – I think that helps any quarterback step into throws and use
proper footwork – that’s always a good fundamental thing for a passer. He’s pretty technically sound and I think healthy and being technically sound – that’s a really good combination for a quarterback to have and he knows where to go too. There are a lot of good things that he’s feeling and I think that’s why he has so much confidence right now. I think our players have a lot of confidence also and I think that’s helping our entire offense."
That doesnt sound like a coach who is waiting on this qb to play out the string waiting for the next guy to come in . Ive said it before but to me Orton is McDaniel subject zero.
McDaniel is a math guy and I would bet big money that he has charted the progress of Orton ,Simms and Brandstater in there first 6 months and can compare them to Quinn and Tebows first 6 months .
I believe Ortons chart is also being compared to Cassell and Bradys and I think his numbers and growth is probably better than Cassells but compares favorably to Brady in his first years. in the offense. I dont think Orton is going anywhere unless he bombs and Tebow doesnt get paid enough to force a monetary push into the starting lineup.
by Hoopforia on Aug 14, 2010 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Interesting information
Thanks for sharing it. I think you’ve got a good bead on what’s going on.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 3:01 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree with Hoopforia.
IMO McJedi doesn’t care who is under center so long as that QB gives his team the best chance to succeed and to take his team to the playoffs, thru the playoffs and to the SB. That is why Simms and Brandstater are both gone and we have Quinn and Tebow along with Orton.
I think Tebow is someone who McJedi thinks has an excellent opportunity to really lead this team there when he is ready – but not before he is ready.
Nice work, Brian. Thanks for your time and energy.
I'm in the belief
That we give Kyle his shot, but if we’re 2-4 coming out of first 6(which is our hardest stretch and entirely possible) then it’s Tebow time.
It will be interesting to see how it all plays out
McDaniels has repeatedly stated that Tebow “has a long way to go.” Which leads me to be of the opinion that if Orton tanks, or goes down with an injury, we will be more likely to see Quinn starting than Tebow.
Doc Smith just posted an interesting look at Tebow as a starter. It can be found here. It’s worth a look.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions
Sorry, fan47, but a simple win/loss record just doesn't cut it for me.
Too many ways a TEAM can win or lose. Orton as an individual would have to play play poorly to be benched. JMO, of course, but all this laying down of absolute deadlines (for KO, McD for the most part) based on win/loss records or achieving a certain playoff success just seems like an awfully narrow view of he world.
Further, even you admit it is the hardest stretch of our schedule; so just why are you loading the dice against Orton. Don’t tell me we are out of it at 2 and 4, either. We don’t have to look far back in history to see an excellent example to refute that view. Just last year, SD started so slow that their fanbase started to panic; then the easier portion of their schedule arrived, and it all evened out for them. Surely we can learn from observation.
To me, your trial period for Orton looks like you trying to set him up for failure, and intentionally doing so. I think Doc’s and BShrout’s posts are right on target.
by idahobronc on Aug 14, 2010 9:54 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
this
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
BShrout
I am basing my scenario that McDaniels’s coaching career in Denver will depend on how Tebow turns out on the fact that if McD really had faith in Orton as his long term starter he never would have traded up to get Tebow or traded Hillis to get Quinn and the Broncos would have already locked up Orton to a long term contract. And since Orton has only one year left on his contract I can’t see why Orton would re-sign with Denver when he knows Tebow is going to be McDaniels’s guy. Basically, Orton needs to play good this year to showcase his talents to other teams because he knows he has no long term future in Denver. Even if Orton leads the Broncos to the playoffs this year I can’t see them paying big money to Orton when the 2011 and 2012 seasons will be about whether Tebow will be a great nfl qb or a bust.
You could well be right
My own take is that: McDaniels career will depend on wins, not players. The Quinn trade, IMO, was based on the horrid play of Chris Simms — Denver needed a backup that was at least adequate. The Tebow move was based on a desire to get a QB who could be molded for the future — whether or not that pans out remains to be seen. The Orton contract had more to do with the CBA situation than anything else.
But as usual, I could be dead wrong on all counts. ;-p
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Could be
I am basing my scenario that McDaniels’s coaching career in Denver will depend on how Tebow turns out on the fact that if McD really had faith in Orton as his long term starter he never would have traded up to get Tebow or traded Hillis to get Quinn and the Broncos would have already locked up Orton to a long term contract.
This is a very common belief, and there is merit to it. I agree with Brian that Quinn was a simple matter or trying to upgrade the backup slot – I don’t know if it was successful, but Simms can’t play at this point. Quinn might be able to with better coaching – it’s unproven either way. so far, Quinn hasn’t been very impressive, and he hasn’t been until now in his NFL career.
But, to me, the idea that drafting a possible QB who is clearly a project (and I’m talking about Tebow) shows a lack of faith in Orton is pushing the envelope. Orton and Quinn both have contracts ending at the end of this season (Quinn’s has language that deals with his January game and so the language misleads people, but they are both FA in 2011). It’s unlikely that Denver keeps both, but no decision has been made on which to keep. Orton has to play well to keep his job, but that’s the NFL. Right now, we don’t know anything about Tebow’s progress beyond that it’s about normal for a rookie in a complex system and it’s not rational to keep Quinn without a winner of a competition between Orton and Tebow – I know that many feel strongly about how much better than KO that TT will be, but at some point, that has to be proven rather than assumed. If TT is that much of an improvement, he should have no difficulty showing it.
On the other hand, if TT doesn’t win that competition and you’ve dropped or traded Orton, you’ve got pretty much nothing. I just find it unlikely that a quirk in the CBA that has infuriated players all over the league (players who voted for this CBA in many cases) is being held up as ‘proof’ that Orton has no future with Denver. I’m sure that McD hopes that TT will progress quickly and beat out the competition at QB, but at this point, it hasn’t happened. Until it does, I guess that I just don’t see the advantage to dropping your top QB.
Gnothi Seauton
McD's career "will depend on wins, not players"
Absolutely. In fact, if McD succeeds without Tebow becoming the player we all hope for, it is even more impressive. This game is about winning and losing as a team; it is not about being able to vicariously live through the expolits of a glamorous QB or any other player or coach. If KO plays better than Tebow, Tebow sits. If Quinn plays better, Quinn plays. IF Tebow plays better, Tebow plays…..all absolutely without regard to their individual style or personalities…it’s the results that speak loudest.
I don't think you can just let Orton walk
Unless someone will take his place. You just don’t let starting QB’s walk. I think he plays well this year and the Broncos re-sign him. Even if Tebow becomes the starter next year at some point, at least Orton would be a valuable trade commodity.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Can you imaging McD being crucified
if KO was showing well, and Tebow was as yet unproven, and Orton is allowed to leave by trade or by not bidding of him?
Schlereth: “There he goes again…you can’t build a winning team by getting rid of our best players”…
Clayton: “McD seems determined to prove his choice is right, even at the expense of the team”..
I just don’t believe that is McD’s plan. He keeps saying it is about competition. He pays no attention to mainstream concepts of “the right move” ; he does what he believes he is right at that time. More importantly for long term success, he is ready to change paths even if it makes a past decision look bad ..(example: Zo doesn’t play well last year, he gets dumped right out of his postion, and he was in a sense “a first round pick”). Come on guys……let the season play out and quit trying to game the situation to get a particular outcome.
interesting stuff
I agree with your assertion that he shouldn’t play this year, but I think a lot of those stats are purely circumstantial… For instance, noting that #1 picks tend to sit awhile while 2-5 picks tend to play… I think that’s 100% purely coincidental. Sam Bradford has looked fantastic in camp from what I hear, and he will likely be starting much of this season as a result I think. Tebow has NOT looked fantastic in camp from what I read – he’s going to need more time to learn to adapt at this level.
I guess I’m saying there’s a reason David Carr is out of this league, and I don’t believe it’s JUS because the Texans O-Line was terrible that year. It’s because he’s just not very good. Same with Joey Harrington – living in Detroit (bad place for a die-hard Broncos fan to be trapped) I watched him play. He failed not because he had to start on a bad team, but because he makes poor decisions with the football. He’s just like Jay Cutler, except Cutler has a rocket arm and a penchant for making big highlight reel plays which helps hide his mental inabilities. Harrington… I can’t think of anything positive to say.
I just don’t think it’s fair to make the statement that starting a rookie on a bad team will probably cause him to be a failure. In 1982, guess who finished 2-7 and dead last in the AFC West? The Denver Broncos. In 1983, they had a rookie QB who was a #1 draft pick, and they started that rookie QB for half those games. He turned out okay… You might have heard of him. His name was John Elway ;)
I’m saying this – take a look at a rookie QB’s performance in training camp and his ability to keep his head above water.. That’s a much better indicator of whether he should start or not his rookie season… Tebow is struggling a bit right now (perfectly normal), so he shouldn’t start. Not even to mention that Orton’s looked fantastic. However under these circumstances, sure, start him:
1. He makes a breakthrough in preseason, putting together some nice plays
2. He makes huge strides in practice this season, solidifying himself as the clear #2 above Brady Quinn
3. After 10 games (minimum) we’ve got 3 wins or less. Maybe 4.
If all those, and I mean ALL of those are true.. Sure, give him a chance in Week 11. Then we would KNOW the season is lost, and we would know he’s not struggling with the pace of the game as much if he’s elevated himself above Quinn. Throwing a rookie QB into the fire might not be all that bad if he is showing evidence that he’s ready (Sam Bradford this year, Matt Ryan last year), but if he’s showing evidence that he’s not ready quite yet (Tebow this year), then wait. I don’t think draft position has anything to do with it honestly.
Good points
and I agree that much of it has to do with circumstances. I didn’t think I was asserting that starting a rookie QB on a bad team would cause him to be a failure — look at Peyton Manning.
I was simply pointing out that the pattern over the last decade has shown that first round QBs who were the starters their rookie year were less likely to have a career record above .500. That raised some concerns about whether or not we would be doing Tebow any favors by naming him the primary starter this year.
Even if we are having a lousy season, I still wouldn’t want to start him this year. In 2005, the Broncos made it to the AFC Championship game with Jake Plummer. In 2006, Shanahan traded up to get Jay Cutler with the 11th pick. The Broncos were 7-4 & in play-off contention in that same season behind Plummer when Shanahan chose to to hand the reins to Cutler. Denver finished the season with a 2-3 run and missed the playoffs. The following year, Denver went 7-9 behind Jay.
Maybe I’m just old-school, in that I believe, as a general rule, rookies should be given at least a year to learn what life is like in the NFL without the pressure of having to live up to the role of a primary starter — particularly in as high pressue a spot as QB.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 2:01 PM MDT up reply actions
Oh I didn’t think you were asserting that exactly, it was more I think there are factors outside of some of these numbers. For instance, many of these rookies who sat a year, sat a year because the QB in front of him was good. Aaron Rodgers sat for forever because Bret Favre was still there. Put Aaron Rodgers on the Chiefs and I think there’s a decent chance he started his first year.
Let me give an example. Ben Roethlisberger. He started as a rookie and succeeded as we all know, and his career record is quite high. Thing is, that team was good without him. I would argue that you put Roethlisberger on the Chiefs, he would still end up being a successful QB in the NFL, but for the first 2-3 years he’s going to lose a lot of games because the talent difference between Pittsburgh at that time and the Chiefs is enormous. So when you would be evaluating him right now, his career record would probably be below .500, but that doesn’t mean he’s a failure.
All that is to say this – I think the numbers can be slightly deceiving. Rivers sat and has been a huge success, but I don’t think him sitting a year made him a better talent today, it just let him make his rookie mistakes in practice instead of game situations. He would have learned either way, it’s just one of them affects his career record, the other doesn’t. It’s my belief that he would be a Pro Bowl QB today regardless.
Also – I think career records is a very deceiving stat. Vince Young’s career record is much better than Aaron Rodgers, but really which QB would you take?
Good points, I appreciate you're adding them into the discussion
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions
thanks!
Hopefully you didn’t feel like I was nuking your post – I enjoyed it a lot and love it when people dig up numbers like that. I was trying to add factors and not replace if that makes any sense. Great work!
Nope, didn't feel like there was a nuke job going on
I admitted that there were more angles than were offered in the post, and IMHO, that’s what the comments section is for: to bring out those additional viewpoints and offer them up to our readers.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions
Good point, and a key one
Let me give an example. Ben Roethlisberger. He started as a rookie and succeeded as we all know, and his career record is quite high. Thing is, that team was good without him
Right. I can’t go with you to the point where you start assuming that X QB would have had a successful career with KC – no offense to KC, who has begun to get much better, but many a QB has wrecked his career on a bad team, if he’s there for a long time. The belief that Ben would be successful in any system when he has been in one is a perspective that I don’t share, but it’s certainly possible. Rivers did get to learn from Brees and also made his mistakes in practice rather than on the field. That’s potentially a large advantage for the QB, and one that TT should be able to take advantage of. The question will remain – what does Denver do to create the competition that is best for both players and the team?
Gnothi Seauton
Good points, but
David Carr is not out of the league, just not starting. He is in San Francisco now I believe
"I don't need love, I just need wins.'' - Kyle Orton, 2010
Yes. Carr is in SF
The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap.
If you consider all of the things being said about the team right now.....
….the only thing we should do is rename Mile High Stadium “Thermopylae” because its pretty much the Broncos vs. the world.
Sorry, only part kidding. Why do you not start Tebow? Simple: We have a chance to win. The Rams can go with Mr. Zero-U because they know they are not close to a championship. Therefore, they are rebuilding. The Broncos are not.
McD doesn’t seem like the type to give up a season.
The Broncos aren't rebuilding?
What do you call retooling the QB, RB, FB, WR, and TE positions, eliminating the “one-cut” running game, revamping both the offensive and defensive line with “bigger bodies,” changing the defensive scheme from a 4-3 to a 3-4 (or 5-2), upgrading the linebacker corps, both safety spots, and the “other” corner, not to mention replacing the entire coaching staff and the restructuring of management?
a new broom sweeps clean..
emptying the trash..
eating the spinach to get to desert…
not throwing good money after bad…
got to break some eggs to make an omelot…
I call it a lot of things, but mostly I call it progressing in the right direction. Don’t forget how few of those 30 or 31 players that were replaced by the time we started 2009 even had a job i the NFL afterward. Starting from 2 years ago, the team was restructured/rebuilt. Starting this last year, the team was strengthened, but following the same design. No, I don’t think we are still in a rebuilding phase. That was last year.
Another good article!
If Orton and others have shown noticeable improvement in their mastery of “the system”, and if “the system” is derivative from that which made NE a consistent contender, then it would seem to follow that the more talent suited to “the system” and the more experience that talent has in “the system” would influence the success of the team.
I see two simultaneous trends.
1 – as much talent as possible that might thrive in “the system” is collected and tested (with noticeable successes and failures);
2 – experience and “progress” in mastering “the system” is of optimum importance in producing consistent wins – surpassing indiviidual stats and dramatic highlights.
Consequently, it would seem irrelevant to judge a season as “lost”. It only reflects how far the team has progress in #s 1 & 2. Every game should be, at this stage, an indication of how well the “team” has progressed in collecting the appropriate talent and mastering “the system”.
If, as seems apparent, Orton currently is most advanced and most productive in “the system”, then it would seem counterproductive to replace him for any reason other than injury. And then to replace him with the QB who is the next most advanced in mastering “the system”.
QBs can (and do) mature while not starting. In addition, they are more able to improve in areas of technique if they are not primarily preparing for game strategies. And IMO both Quinn and Tebow can do significant improving in the areas of techinique. (I haven’t yet read Doc’s article reference above, but will. If I’m not mistaken he’ll say something about the process of “muscle memory” which is more important that people realize.)
If the Bronco’s use Tebow this year for “wild horses” or anything else (“red zone”, “goal line”, etc.) I hope it will not delay his development as a versatile QB. His biggest asset, IMO, is not “wild horses” but that he may have the kind of mobillity that Elway and Plummer had to extend plays without noticeable risk of injury, which I regard as much more important than some skill at running or blocking as a QB.
I agree that Tebow (and Quinn) should be allowed, as much as possible, to grow in the system while observing someone (Orton) who is noticeably ahead of them.
And I also agree that the season is not “lost” no matter what the record, because all of the current players, especially the very new and young ones (of which there are many) need the best leadership to progress in “the system” with all of its complexities.
by ivanthenotsobad on Aug 14, 2010 3:13 PM MDT reply actions
The season lost???
Tebowmaniacs will try anything to get their boy in the lineup. Orton is head and shoulders the best QB on the team and should be the starter. Tebow might make it some day as a quality QB, but that day is a long way off according to the reports I’ve been reading from TC. 11-5 in 2010, then on to the playoffs! Nice job and rec’d!
by rocko1 on Aug 14, 2010 4:12 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I've a;ways been one of those 'few' that believe a rookie QB sis out the rookie year!
Only desperate teams throw a guy from college to the wolves! I’t’s ludicrous to sling crap when it will come back in your face…
Agreed that he shouldn't start this year. But....
The competition was left open, and Kyle rose to the top. At this point, it’s not even close as to who is best for the team. No matter how the season shakes out, and I really feel like we go 10-6, it wouldn’t be good to start him.
With that being said, I do believe that he should see action this year. I feel it’s imperative that he see the speed difference, and how his great physical abilities stack up with the starting D’s in the NFL. Can he run over a LB like he did in college? We’ll see :)
Future 2010 MHR Fantasy Football Champion! ;)
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
THe sad thing that I learned from this
was that JaMarcus Russell’s record is better than Brady Quinn’s. Ouch. Very Ouch. LOL. The only one worse than Quinn is Stafford, and everyone knows that situation.
Great ebate, folks.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
A few things...
1. Your sample sizes are really small
2. Correlation != Causation
3. You’re ignoring a factor that I’ll call the St. Louis Rams factor.
In a lot of cases, poor teams with very little hope draft a QB with the 1st overall pick in the draft. These QBs are thrown into the fire to sell tickets and because their team has little hope or talent. In general, I would expect teams that start rookie quarterbacks to have very poor records while teams that sit QBs and can bring them along have better records.
The exception to this seems to be the Steelers with Roethlisberger and the Ravens with Flacco..who were pretty good teams with solid run games and defenses who didn’t have to rely on quarterbacks.
I think a better way to think about rookie performance is to compare their seasons to the team’s QB performance the season before…assuming there’s not a significant turnover on said team.
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