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Was Tim Tebow Drafted to Sit on the Bench?

One of the many things that fans are talking about, complaining about, praising and espousing right now is the talk about how Tim Tebow was NOT drafted to sit on the bench. For the upcoming season, it's entirely possible that it will prove to be exactly what he was drafted to do - at least on Sundays, for the moment. During the season, he'll get to train, practice and learn, things that he adores and that will give him a chance to eventually be a a solid, perhaps even elite NFL QB. But it isn't now, and he isn't close to ready. Therefore, sitting on the bench, unless there's an injury, is exactly what he'll get to do. There are good reasons for that, too.

Here are a couple of things on Orton from this past week or so:

Aug 11, Kirk Davis
Tim Tebow throws a pass into Alric Arnett's back. Kyle Orton hooks up with Willis for a touchdown. Orton throws a fade to Brandon Lloyd for a touchdown. Orton throws to Eddie Royal for a touchdown.

Star-divide

 8/10/10 Link

During one quick 11-on-11 segment, Orton showcased why he's so excited about his progress in the offense. On one play, he lofted a deep ball to Eddie Royal, which the receiver pulled down between Dawkins and Nate Jones. On the very next rep, he hit Daniel Graham down the middle, fitting the ball just out of Akin Ayodele's reach. That play earned a congratulatory pat from Head Coach Josh McDaniels. Orton closed the crisp period by finding Gaffney wide-open down the sideline Link

4. All three QBs looked good but it was kind of hard to judge because some of the completions would have been sacks. Orton does look like the leader of the O and walks around with a quite confidence. He puts the ball where only the receiver can get it and throws the most catchable ball of the 3.

I just wanted to share this with you while I was organizing my thoughts on Friday morning's full pads practice and scrimmage.
QB: Had a chance to observe Kyle close up and get an autograph. Orton looks very in control. He gets rid of the ball, he looks buff, and he exudes serenity - like the kid in the song "All Kinds of Time" by Fountains of Wayne. If you don't know that song, give it a listen, it's neat. Be ready to see exactly what Orton can be barring broken throwing fingers, etc, so long as the pass protection is average or better.
by littletinybroncos on Aug 8, 2010 2:23 PM PD Link

Orton, whose strength is making quick, intelligent decisions, and throwing accurately short, is among the league's most efficient throwers in the red zone with 39 touchdown passes against just three interceptions.

Note, 8/2 - Set after set of notes out of training camp listed Orton as being the best QB on the field. There is no doubt that this is his team, and his arm strength was shown and even, surprisingly, repeatedly praised.

Orton exudes confidence, but there is a quiet, low-key, even blase element to his personality that served him well during the Broncos' offseason workouts this spring. While Quinn and Tebow brought an All-America-type celebrity to team headquarters, Orton effectively went about his business without uttering a controversial word. Orton insists he's not bothered by the new competition for his job, either.

"I think you get it wherever you're at," he said. "There's maybe three or four guys around the league that are Hall of Fame quarterbacks and it's their franchise. But from there on out, you have to earn your play every single game, every single week. And I'm fine with that."

It might be a long way to go around to it, but I'm going to be curious about how many people can read these (and there is a rest of the list I won't bother people with, but it's long) and tell me again about how you start a rookie who doesn't even have a grasp of the offense. That's no insult to TT - it's a huge playbook, he's got a lot of mechanical problems to work out, and he's a rookie, starting to learn a new game from the video-football that was his college game at this point. And, if TT never starts, as much as it would shock some people, that, too, can happen. No matter how skilled at one thing, no one is skilled at them all, even if they're related fields. But, what's really at the heart of the 'conflict'? Tebow is very charismatic, but that doesn't throw a football. He may do nice things with his off-field time, but that doesn't change the flight of the football either. He might get there in football. I hope that he does, but he obviously hasn't yet. He's even not close - and that was to be expected. Or, at least, it should have been. So, why was there so much pressure to get TT into the games starting next month?

I think that there are really two separate issues here.

One:

A lot of people have (or have never had) little or no faith in Orton, so every alternative is the perfect solution to this 'problem'. If you believe there to be a problem, you'll work to correct it. If you don't see one, you rarely bother. In this, Josh McDaniels and Brian Xanders jumped on a potential problem - Not only is Orton the best QB at this time, at the end of the season Denver had Chris Simms, who became a problem, Tom Brandstater, who is clearly a project, and Kyle Orton. If Orton went down, Denver was down to the dilemma between Simms and Brandstater, and the opinion of the coaches was the Brandstater wasn't ready. According to some fans, Simms was going to be that solution (that worked out well...). Some even cried out for Brandstater. But Simms was released, Brady Quinn was taken to to replace him (and, so far, for very little else, although that could change over time) and Tim Tebow was brought on for the potential that McDaniels sees in him. Tebow is clearly a project at this time - he's still throwing with a towel rolled up under his right arm. He's anything but ready, and Orton is playing his best pro ball. It starts mattering when the season starts, but i don't hate reading good things, either. And, Kirk Davis just reports it - he doesn't sugar coat or spin it. That's one of many reasons that I like his stuff.

Beyond making the changes to get an experienced 2nd string QB who costs much less than Simms did and putting a third string project in place, the possibility that there is no other QB problem eludes most of those folks. If you look at the jump in his numbers after getting 4 months of coaching from McD and McC, it's hard to argue that there's no room for more improvement. During an offseason in which Orton rested, healed, then got together with his WRs and threw a lot of balls, getting used to each other (Bill Walsh used to help his QB and WRs 'cheat' the then-current rules that forbade excessive practicing. The QB wanted to, the WRS wanted to, and Walsh wasn't going to let little things like league rules get in the way). Time and practice with the QB and WRs ares essential to moving the chains. If your perspective is that Orton 'can't' improve further, there's nothing to debate. Accept that both sides see something vastly different and move on. And, if you're a bit of a nebbish, remind your debating partner that this conversation was had before about a year ago, and Orton is still the best QB Denver has.

Orton, through no fault of his own, has become a bit of a lightning rod. Happily, his coach really doesn't care, doesn't read the media and doesn't worry about how the fans feel about this player vs. that. McD obviously likes Tebow a lot, and that means only that Tim will get a legitimate chance to compete for the starting slot. It doesn't mean that he's going to win it. Kyle Orton has come to camp in his usual style - cheerful, laid-back in degree, working as hard as ever. And playing better than he ever has as a pro.

Orton does look like the leader of the O and walks around with a quite (sic) confidence. He puts the ball where only the receiver can get it and throws the most catchable ball of the 3. (littletinybroncos, Aug 8, 2010)

This was one of the legit complaints on Orton last year. At least in some degree, there was truth to it: he wasn't in touch with his receivers, nor they with him. It created problems. Part of that was simply a complete lack of timing between the QB and WRs from a lack of practice. It usually takes more than most fans are aware to get it right. It was a new system with new players and different terminology. Part of it was other things - we now know that he was walking and running on one bad hoof during the whole season. For the second half of the season, that was two bad hooves, and the leftover pain (let's not try to pretend there never was any - there was) of a throwing with a recently broken forefinger on his throwing hand. Now that he's had a chance to throw with his receivers, heal, work more on the playbook (you're never done studying it, as any top QB will tell you) and come in knowing most of his guys and being without question the #1 QB on the team, and it shows. And, Orton and the WRs were learning an entirely new system. Now, it's not about thinking, but playing football.

Oh, and the poor arm strength myth? If it needed doing (that story had more lives than a room full of cats and has been harder to put down than an armored vampire), John Bena put that one to rest very nicely on his few days in camp and John's been just one in a long line of people pointing that out this summer. Orton's arm strength is just fine, and nearly everyone who has seen it close up has said the same. You can't make people believe things just because they are true, but it's a fine place to start.

Two:

The idea that Tim Tebow will come in and save the team from Kyle Orton is only part of it. The other part is that many people believed so fervently that Tebow would be successful, he must be successful, and are so wrapped up in needing this to be true that they brook no interference to him starting, starting now, and feel strongly that this is the best alternative that Denver now faces. By losing games in 2010, many fans believe that the team will win more in 2011 or 12. It's a siren song to those who are now reaching for a lifeline for their beliefs, for like many theories over the ages, this one is smashing up on the shoals around TT Island, and the ships are shattering from the pounding. The league starts in just over 30 days, and those who cried the loudest for him to start are having to content themselves with new theories about how he'll run the Wild Horses and the red zone.

Let's face it - there is a major division in the fan base regarding this. There are those who want Tebow, and want him even if it costs Denver games (and have said so). They want him even if he's unready, uncertain of his full playbook, unprepared in his motion (hence the towel still rolled up under his right armpit, which I don't think that they will let you use in games), unused to his receivers and just plain not prepared to be an NFL QB. Several such fans have said that they'd be happy losing more games if it means getting Tebow in earlier. Most of us want our team to win, but this is such a powerful schism that many people believe that by losing more games now, somehow, and the specifics are a little vague he (and Denver) will win later. It's an enticing theory for those people who really want to see TT starting at any cost. Again, happily to most of us, the coach doesn't 'roll(out)' that way.

The advantage of the Wild Horses is that Orton gets a look at the defense and then can make the call to take advantage of it. The advantage of Tebow running it is that mostly he's large for a QB. It's not much of an advantage, but it's all that some fans have left. If TT is in for the WH plays, you lose the advantage of Orton's freedom in play calling. If you're going to use TT as a running back, you've spent multiple picks for a running back who can throw - sometimes. I saw one bizarre theory that TT should lead the blocking (you want him to eventually be the #1 QB but he should lead the guys who slam into people much bigger than Tebow?). It's not hard to see why fans from other clubs find this set of theories absurd. If that's to be all that there is, it would be. But that's not the goal. The goal, from this group, is to push Tebow into the lineup, and quickly the starting lineup, at any cost.

How about the red zone? That is another recommended 'use' for Tim. Denver did, no question, have trouble in the red zone over the past year. While Orton, however, had trouble last year, in 2008, with multiple injuries, he had a QB rating of 101.8 in the red zone in Chicago, with no better players but an established system. Now, Orton has that continuity of system, and putting in a rookie QB with all the rookie problems has the advantage of....what? Nothing at all, really. You're pulling a QB who has broken 100 in the red zone QB rating. But it gets TT on the field, and when you come right down to it, that's the whole point. Because after all, why did you draft a QB if he's going to sit on the bench?

And that question, thankfully, is easier to answer than most. Because he's going to sit on the bench and should sit on the bench until he masters his basics, like any other QB. Until his throwing motion improves to the point that both McCoy and McD feel that it's ready (sans towel). Until he can be an effective pocket passer, just like the head coach said. Until he can beat out Orton, which is turning out to be more difficult than many fans would have believed. It wasn't long ago that QBs sat for up to 5 years as a matter of course. That's changed, of course, and I think that it should have, but having TT sit until he learns the game isn't punishment and it isn't prejudice against the player. It's the best way to develop, improve and mold an NFL rookie (ANY rookie who finds himself in this situation - this isn't about one personality) who was, by many observers' standards, a project. They seem to be right, although he seems to be getting there.

Yes, there is also a list of those who felt that he wasn't a project at all, and in that part at least, they are turning out to be flatly wrong. TT is a project, but he's also one that seems to be on track, even if that track is a little slower than some would have it. At a later point in that project, he may win a lot of games - he's on the Broncos, and I hope that he does. But that project is on a more realistic track than the one that fans and pundits recently called for, and that means he's currently unready to play. I watched an interview, predraft, with McDaniels, and one of the things that he commented on is that 'pro style' in a college offense isn't really completely 'pro' style.

It's not that there aren't advantages to certain aspects of those offenses - learning footwork, and getting 3-4 years of extra practice in it, for example, is clearly beneficial, as is learning to understand seeing the defenses from under center and learning which routes break when from that perspective. But all of the players that come out of college in the QB position are missing some things that the coach has the responsibility to provide in terms of training and molding the player. McD pointed out that the coach has to go into such situations with a plan - sometimes a longer term plan (at which point, it seemed likely that he was talking about Tebow) - and has to have the patience to execute that plan. Happily, Josh McDaniels is the kind of coach who makes a plan and sticks to it as much as makes sense. Right now, that means that Tebow will ride the bench, will have to wait his turn, and will have to beat out a starting QB to get his slot.

Welcome to the NFL. Nobody comes in fresh and raw and is given anything. Some rare players start immediately and learn on the run, but they are rare. You create your own job, and you also have to hold on to it.

The coup de grace argument for many who join in this debate is this - if they didn't draft Tebow to play him, why haven't they paid Orton starting money? It's not a bad question - in this debate, it's probably the strongest argument, for what that's worth. But, let's start at the beginning? Why would you pay Orton starting money? There are players all over the league who are complaining and not getting their money. If Orton's the second best QB on Denver next year, why did you lock him in with the CBA in tatters and a a grand opportunity to save a lot of money comes along? It might happen that Orton is the 2nd best - Orton improved substantially over the offseason, and that was to be expected. Tebow might do the same next offseason. He might even overtake Orton. There is an equal chance that he won't, and Orton will be the best QB on the Broncos - we can't know yet. The lack of a CBA has given the NFL a 'mulligan' year. They get to ignore quite a few players who were up for larger contracts. They may be hoping that the new contract will be more 'owner friendly' and that they can work out a better one next offseason. It's a reasonable hope - the NFL owners seem, from what I'm seeing, to hold most of the better cards in the game. So, the question can be reversed - you've got a great year with no CBA and you don't need to pay him. You don't know what contracts will look like, so you don't have to give him one. Why pay him? It's not a reason to believe that Tebow will start next year. It's an opportunity for Tebow to compete, but at this point, there's nothing more.

Conclusion

Colinski made a nice article comment that sums up much of the issue. He said,

I get mildly annoyed when I read things like - we didn't draft Tebow to sit on the bench. The rationale for adding to our QB position seems to one of the most poorly understood strategies coming out of the last draft. The point of building the QB position would seem to be unassailable - it's an important position.

My complaint about the comments on the QB subject is that there's a tendency to see the draft decision in discrete or clean outcomes. All I'm saying here is that situations are often messy and the strategy for dealing with messiness can be messy itself. Tebow doesn't "have" to become a starter at any particular point but we hope he will. And similar things could be said for Orton and Quinn.

It's not a question of what the coaching staff planned when they acquired Quinn and Tebow. Contingency planning is what you do to address possible situations, and these are not necessarily situations that we believe will occur. But that's the point. They can't anticipate every situation. And so the solution is an attempt to bridge a number of possibilities and let the players themselves solve the problem through their play.

I like the idea of letting the players solve the problem through their play. As the HC said, everyone makes their own role on this team. I hope that he was telling the truth. Tebow hasn't defined his yet, but we'll get to see his work on achieving that. All the best to them all.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 118 comments  |  36 recs  | 

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Great piece Doc

I always wonder why people say that Tebow wasn’t drafted to sit, or be used in a limited role, where did McX ever say they drafted him to start?

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Aug 14, 2010 11:05 AM MDT reply actions  

Notable qb's drafted to sit the bench

Phil Rivers, Tom Brady, Matt Cassel, Kevin Kolb, Jay Cutler, Kyle Orton, Aaron Rogers, Tony Romo, and on and on and on. Nobody wants to start a rookie qb if they don’t have to. The Broncos don’t have to.

by Dorado on Aug 14, 2010 11:19 AM MDT reply actions  

well said Dorado

To me, Kolb is probably the best comparison… he was a very early 2nd round pick (vs. a late 1st), had an established QB in front of him, he came from a bit of a gimicky college offense so was acknowledged as a bit of a project….

Kolb became a starter once he proved he could run the offense as good/better than McNabb…. and not a day sooner. I expect the same from Tebow/Orton.

by cjfarls on Aug 14, 2010 11:27 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good point

But I must point out, Romo wasn’t drafted.

- Nick

"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu

"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth

by ncm42 on Aug 14, 2010 6:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree, give me Orton any day.

And I think Dorado’s point is well-stated. The Broncos don’t have to. And as you so astutely pointed out, Doc….Orton is CLEARLY the best QB at this point. I harbor no ill will toward Tebow, but I hope Orton continues to improve and remains the best QB on the team for years. I would take some satisfaction in seeing him be rewarded for how he has gone about his business….

- Nick

"Know the enemy, know yourself, and victory is never in doubt, not in a hundred battles."
- Sun Tzu

"if you look close, there’s a hoodie lurking in the background of picture 4. similar to the classic sasquatch shot and equally stunning, as the denver temperature today is relatively fair."
-oxmouth

by ncm42 on Aug 14, 2010 6:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

So would I

I have no ill will to any player on the team. I just want to see the best players play, and hopefully play well.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 14, 2010 6:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

with one caveat

If they are winning games and making serious playoff runs, I don’t care who it is behind center. If Orton is the best QB in Denver and the continue being an average team, I would rather see them move in a different direction.

by A-Rom on Aug 15, 2010 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions  

Don't forget

#7!

All we're trying to do is read a MF blog here!

by BringBackOrange on Aug 14, 2010 10:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

I hope Orton gets this year AND next. With up and coming rookies and vets on D....if he continues

the trend of improving his numbers like he has we should have a decent shot to contend…..The longer Tebow doesn’t have to start the better…we’re going to need a Defensive draft next year. The timing should be pretty good.

by bronco112 on Aug 14, 2010 11:31 AM MDT reply actions  

Best player should start.

That sure appears to be Orton. He’s earned it. I’m pulling for both Tebow and Quinn to become great NFL QBs, but this is a no-brainer issue as far as I’m concerned. Thanks Doc!

by NedBronco on Aug 14, 2010 12:11 PM MDT reply actions  

Wholeheartedly agree

I am excited to see Orton’s improvement this year. The fact that he played as well as he did last season (probably top 15 in the league) when the entire roster had been overhauled and every player was completely new to McD’s system is a good sign for him. I don’t see how people feel we will get so much worse this year. Sure we will have some rookies out there, but we will have more experienced vets too. Last season everybody was learning the playbook and learning to play with their new teammates and coaches.
  I’m also impressed with how professionally Orton has handled all of the hype and chaos that accompanied the Brady and Tebow pickups. He said it best when he said "There’s maybe three or four guys around the league that are Hall of Fame quarterbacks and it’s their franchise. But from there on out, you have to earn your play every single game, every single week. And I’m fine with that. " Orton is realistic about his role on the team and doesn’t play into the QB controversy drama.
  It reminds me of the Plummer-Cutler switch except that, I don’t believe McD will succumb to the pressure to pull a successful QB and Orton is much more mature and professional than Plummer. His neckbeard is a little more refined and professional too.

by BigskyBronco on Aug 14, 2010 12:22 PM MDT reply actions  

Orton is about as far from a headcase as you can get

He doesn’t pout, doesn’t expect anything to be given to him, just stays on an even keel. And this year he knows the offense better and both ankles are healthy (he doesn’t make excuses, either). I’m really excited about him. Tebow will be a much better quarterback a year from now, but we shouldn’t overlook the possibility that Orton will still be the best quarterback on the team.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Aug 14, 2010 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

To sit or play

  Great summary of how the QB situation is unfloding. I,ve been an Orton supporter from the beginning. I’ve debated many times about TT’s potential ( which I believe is very high ) but is only potential.
  If you go back to the 60’s and 70’s and into the 80’s and 90’s all rookie QBs sat. It only since rookies have been paid huge singing bonuses that there’s been a rush to ply them now.
  How many HoF Qbs started as rookies? I’d dare to say few if any. They all needed to learn the pro game.
  Thank for a wonderfully clear article on the QB situation in Denver.

by OCBronco on Aug 14, 2010 12:27 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Your argument is detailed and air-tight

but in a way you give too much credit to the start-Tebow-now crowd. You give all the good reasons to not start him right away — he needs more time with his mechanics, with his receivers, with the playbook, with the NFL; we’ll lose games if we play him in the meantime rather than the clearly superior (at this time) Orton — but the start-him-now people are oblivious to those arguments. There may be a few who, for the sake of future wins, are willing to sacrifice wins now, but I’d bet most don’t think there’s a sacrifice involved. They share the naive fan mindset of drafting ‘pieces’ that instantly fill needs. Poor defense last year? We’ll get this player nobody could run against. Check. Need a deep defender? This 4.3 corner in the top three at his position will add speed to the secondary. Check. The casual fan thinks we’ve added speed to the secondary and stiffened the run defense before either player has set foot on the field. Tebow is a super talent. Let’s put him in and strengthen the QB position. Check. They fail to realize the difference between college and pro, the time it takes too get up to speed even for subsequently successful pros, the high failure rate even for highly touted prospects, the difference between a guy who’s good at his position and one who’s good “for a rookie.” With me you’re preaching to the choir. With them you’re preaching to the nincompoops.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Aug 14, 2010 12:50 PM MDT reply actions   2 recs

Thanks for the chuckle, Spock

“With me you’re preaching to the choir. With them you’re preaching to the nincompoops.”

The immediate gratification, win now crowd tends to, I would agree, see every draft as one filled with instant starters. It seems to me there is an exceptional story building out of Dove Valley. There is a well thought out, long term plan being laid out that portends the building of a “team”. Tewbow is just another piece, albeit perhaps the queen in the game of chess, but none the less no more important than a pawn if that piece ends up being the move to check mate. We’re talking patience here, something in short supply except among those earning it through hard earned experience. Give McX two more drafts and judicious FA pickups and we will begin a long term phase of supremacy that will mirror both Pittsburgh and New England. In the mean time I am reveling in watching the puzzle coming together.

"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."

by BroncoCUbuffs on Aug 14, 2010 1:06 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

lol - Gotta watch who I preach to - great line, spock.

The immediate gratification crowd got more attention from me today for two reasons. the first is that they have denied the same, simple, common issues of a rookie entering the NFL since long about October and I ran into yet another discussion among some about how quickly TT would start. I do like keeping debates orderly, and that was one reason that I bothered with it.

The second was that even among people that I respect and learn from, there is a consistent decision that Orton is gone and somehow that doesn’t matter. I tend to want to have a qualified QB before I cut my best one lose. Orton has also shown remarkable improvement, and even most of the crowd who dislike him have had to accept that he’s throwing well, running the team like a leader and clearly better than the other two in head-to-head competition. TT may get his day – to me, he’s still a project, even if he’s Denver’s project – but right now, the whole idea that you cut or trade Orton without a plan seems bizarre. At the same time, that’s just me – there are other ways to view this, and I admit that I find may of them beyond my current understanding.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 14, 2010 5:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think it's entirely possible that a year from now

Tebow, although (probably) vastly improved, might still be unable to beat out an also-improved Orton. Among the possibilities: Orton wins the job next year and Tebow backs him up. Tebow wins the job and Orton backs him up. Either scenario could last fron one to several years. More likely, if Tebow beats out Orton the latter gets traded at his own request. I don’t know if Tebow will want to leave if he keeps getting better and Orton keeps staying ahead of him. But as you say it’s premature to talk about trading your (by far) best quarterback before the season even starts.

"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.

by spock on Aug 14, 2010 8:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

I like the chess analogy.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Aug 15, 2010 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions  

Great article, Doc (as usual)

Something else to consider: usually the argument I’ve heard is that you don’t draft a QB in the first round to have him sit on the bench.

Yet, in the last decade (2000-2009), not one of the five QBs taken in the first round, using picks 20-32 (J P Losman, Aaron Rodgers, Jason Campbell, Rex Grossman, Patrick Ramsey) and remember Tebow was #25, was named the primary starter for their team as a rookie. Only two of those (Grossman (2-1) and Ramsey (2-3)) even started any games as a rookie.

Further, there were 3 QBs drafted during the last decade, using the #1 overall pick (Michael Vick, Carson Palmer, and JaMarcus Russell) who rode the bench for their first year.

I think you hit it dead on, Doc, when you pointed out that much of the push to start Tebow now has as much to do with those who are not enamored of Orton’s style — and by extension are not enamored of McDaniels — and would prefer to see any other solution, no matter the cost to the team.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Aug 14, 2010 12:53 PM MDT reply actions   4 recs

Great post as always Doc.

IMO sitting on the bench does nothing but help Tebow. It all depends on how your coaching staff look at this year.
1- They look at it as a rebuilding year, and want to get Tebow some playing time( Which is a mistake IMO with Orton there).
2- They think they can make a play-off run this year with Orton as the starter.

Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.

by CPT.Caveman on Aug 14, 2010 1:22 PM MDT reply actions  

But...
…if they didn’t draft Tebow to play him, why haven’t they paid Orton starting money?

But they paid Doom when they didn’t have to either. (Playing Devil’s Advocate, Doc – you know me.)

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap.

by bradley on Aug 14, 2010 2:25 PM MDT reply actions  

Sure, and that one was going to come up ;-)

Two non-CBA agreements were made on the team – Kuper and Doom, both of whom are equally important beyond who starts at QB this or next year. That’s more than many teams made. Why not do this for Orton? Four good reasons:

1. The size of the QB’s salary. You’re tying up larger amounts of money, and
2. You don’t know if you will have football in 2011.
3. He will establish for himself this year his role, exactly as the coaches have said repeatedly. If he gets to keep the starter job, which seems most likely, then he’ll be in camp next year to defend it.
4. Last point – if other aspects of the team sputter, leading to a few early losses, Orton will only be blamed in the measure of what errors he made. If he’s playing with the Jax defensive team photo in his face, for example, changing QBs only changes targets (which, in Quinn’s case, might work out OK) (I’m jk). I know, this is the ‘put the team on your back’ part. So, Peyton Manning tanks that one with a pick 6 to end Indy’s shot at the SB. Do you drop him now, especially if the GM blamed the OL for the problems? Of course not, but that’s much what many people are claiming that Denver should do. He’s not Manning (well, not the older one – I think that he’s easily as good as Eli, and probably better) but as long as he’s the best QB Denver has, you don’t replace him, you replace the people responsible for the losses.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 14, 2010 6:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

You can't make people believe things just because they are true, but it's a fine place to start.

:-) Awesome… Great post, as always

You can take the man out of Colorado, but you can't take Colorado out of the man.

by manbearpig5000000 on Aug 14, 2010 3:08 PM MDT reply actions  

Agreed, Doc. Very well spoken. Rec'd!

This reminds me of Enos Slaughter, an outfielder for the St Louis Cardinals in the 1940’s and finished up with the Yankees in the 50’s, remarking that every spring there was a sure fire prospect coming into spring training that would take his position and put him on the bench. He simply continued to play well and kept his spot – until father time caught up with him.

I expect the same from Orton. Tebow may not see the field this year, next year, or until Kyle Orton leaves. IMO Orton will continue to get better – and work more efficiently in this offense.

Again, IMO, bringing Tebow in before he is ready is inviting a disaster. He could be injured simply because he doesn’t know the playbook sufficiently; ends up in the wrong place at the wrong time – in the hands of some mini grizzly bear. He is too valuable a talent for that.

Thanks, Doc, foryour insight.

by Blackknigh on Aug 14, 2010 3:48 PM MDT reply actions  

Great great essay on the current QB situation DocBear.

When Cutler was drafted I really thought this would inspire Plummer to have his best camp and season ever when presented with the challenge. In TC he did indeed seem comfortable, but as soon as the season started he became tentative and his performance was one of a player looking over his shoulder for his replacement. Of course Shanahan did exactly what we all saw coming and replaced Plummer with Cutler to finish the season. He wasn’t ready and we missed the playoffs and lost some games we might have won with Plummer. In contrast to Plummer, Orton has elevated his game and made this team his own and simply outperformed the other QB’s in camp. I love this kid’s character and discipline and his toughness in fighting for the job he feels he’s rightfully earned. Now that we know the incredible physical challenges he dealt with all last year, I am even more impressed with his toughness and leadership. I think we’ll all be very happy with Mr. Orton’s command of this team and his performance this year.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Aug 14, 2010 4:17 PM MDT reply actions  

Plummer in 06

I always thought that any problems Plummer had in 06 were not caused by Cutler being there, but because Shanahan had him on such a short leash, to cut down on mistakes, and that took Plummer way off his game. We had a very good D that year, and I’ve always thought that if Shanahan had just let Plummer play his game, Jake would have been much better. And just let the D handle any turnovers.

The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese in the trap.

by bradley on Aug 14, 2010 4:44 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

I agree with you. Not having your coach's confidence was clearly a factor in Plummer's performance.

Shanahan takes the blame for this one in my opinion.

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Aug 14, 2010 4:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Same. I don't have a problem with drafting Cutler, but then you make him a backup until he's ready

I deeply hope that Denver will recall that lesson and ones like it before they screw up.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 14, 2010 6:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

Toughness
his toughness in fighting for the job

True, for sure. But the kid is also all around tough. Played most of the season injured. That finger was nasty, I can’t say I’ve ever seen anyone’s finger rip apart like that. Tough. Then later with the gimp ankle. He didn’t even get a full game off cause Simms was horrible.

I want to see what Orton does if he actually stays healthy for a season!

So I see you rolled your way into the semis?

by OutOfYourElement on Aug 16, 2010 8:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great job & Rec'd!

I honestly don’t know why Tim Tebow was drafted in the 1st round by the Broncos. It certainly wasn’t to beat out Kyle Orton anytime soon.

by rocko1 on Aug 14, 2010 4:18 PM MDT reply actions  

I don't even mind drafting him

I’ve been consistent in the past – I would rather not have drafted him, and for most of the reasons that have come out – the MUST group that needs to put him into the red zone (after Orton ran 101.8 QB rating numbers in the red zone with a worse Chicago team, but in his second year starting with them). I’ve read the idea that TT should be a blocker (Um, Ok. Did he make a really bad mistake, or what?), that he should take away Denver’s best advantage in the Wild Horses and so forth. I think that he’s a project, that he might be a worthwhile project, but right now, the best QB is simple.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 14, 2010 6:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Could Tim Tebow

become the next Dave Casper? I would love to find out! Orton to Tebow! Broncos win!! :)))

by rocko1 on Aug 14, 2010 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not a Tebow-must-play supporter, but I think we will see TT play this year.

Conventional wisdom would say he should sit and learn, but I think the un-conventional aspects of his game will place him on the field occasionally.

The interesting part of all of this to me is how much of “wildcard” he could be. No expectations, but interested.

Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan

by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 4:38 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

You said what many people are not. I am very confident Tebow will have chances to play ball this year. Tebow has proven throughout this offseason/preseason that he can help lead a team. I am worried about how they tried tinkering with his throwing motion. It appears to me that his accurrucy is off, hopefully he will be able to correct that without too many problems.

by Auz on Aug 31, 2010 6:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Couldn't agree more

I mean why make a player a starter if he isn’t ready regardless of what position he plays.

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Aug 14, 2010 4:38 PM MDT reply actions  

qb position

I just like reinforcing the point that

a) Orton 2010 is an upgrade over Orton 2009
b) Quinn is an upgrade over Simms
c) Tebow is an upgrade over Brandstater

No matter what, we have an improved QB position on this team. I don’t think anyone can argue otherwise. In fact, just about every position on this team is improved over last season, with the debatable exception of the WRs (though there’s a longer term upside) and the LBs.

I think given that, the team is owed an opportunity to see how much they can “win now”. There’s absolutely zero reason to take a short-term performance hit in hopes of a quicker long term upside by starting Tebow.

by tunesmith on Aug 14, 2010 4:40 PM MDT reply actions   3 recs

LB's?

Unless you are saying we’ve gone down in talent due to Doom’s injury, I do not see how we failed to improve our line-backing corpse this year. Just the act of improving the front D-Line as much as we have will elevate the play of our LB’s. Even without Doom on the field, I would not be surprised to see our team’s sack production to be greater then last year. If Doom was healthy, our defense would be a monster to contend with, considering just how much improvement Ayers has shown this off season and the simple fact that our Nose-tackle sucks up double and triple teams consistently.

by BroncoFanInLakewood on Aug 14, 2010 5:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

personnel-wise

we haven’t improved our LB’s, I don’t think. I’m talking about whether the positions have been improved, not whether they will have an easier time of it due to other improved players. Although, Ayers improving is a good point. Woodyard has more muscle, maybe that’s something. But Reid is gone, Dumervil is out – so yeah, I think it’s one of the two positions where it’s least clear that we’ve improved.

by tunesmith on Aug 14, 2010 7:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tune - did you mis-word this?

personnel-wise we haven’t improved our LB’s, I don’t think
and
But Reid is gone, Dumervil is out – so yeah, I think it’s one of the two positions where it’s least clear that we’ve improved.

Change last word to ‘slid’ and I think that it’s consistent (which is, according to various sources including Churchhill, the hobgoblin of little minds).

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions  

Tebow will play when he is the best QB on the roster.

And on 1st and goal packages inside the 5.

Denver: 32-32 until we're not.

by McGeorge on Aug 14, 2010 6:16 PM MDT reply actions  

Why IS that?

Orton has run a 101.8 QB rating in the red zone with a worse team but in his second season at that position. Why do you pull him to put in Tebow? You already have the back of the end zone acting as an extra defender – you need the QB with the best accuracy in a short zone.

Orton, whose strength is making quick, intelligent decisions, and throwing accurately short, is among the league’s most efficient throwers in the red zone with 39 touchdown passes against just three interceptions.

Given these two, why put in an inexperienced rookie QB with a limited grasp on the playbook and a tendency to sail the ball in TC? Wouldn’t you rather have an experience QB who’s put up good numbers there?

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 14, 2010 6:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

hmmmmm

Maybe McD does put Tebow in the red zone, but leaves Orton in at QB. Many possibilities for a great athelete!

by rocko1 on Aug 14, 2010 6:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

There's a good answer for this

QB rating doesn’t count so much in the red zone. We had a points-per-game that was pretty bad last season.

QB rating has to do with the passing game. In the red zone, the frequency of point scoring has to do with misdirection and your running game. We had poor touchdown conversion in the red zone, and it may be that we just didn’t get to the red zone very often either, although I’m not sure about that.

There’s a chance that having Tebow in the red zone really could improve our red zone conversion rate, because he has the ability to throw it in and run it in. His ability to throw it in will be a little less than Orton’s, but his ability to run it in will be a lot more. Add in to that the extra misdirection, the fact that the defense has to wonder which he’s going to do, and there’s a very valid argument for putting Tebow in down there even if Orton has a great qb rating.

by tunesmith on Aug 14, 2010 7:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

If Orton was such a great red zone weapon, he’d have played on some high scoring teams as their starting QB.

But he hasn’t has he.

The Doc is using a stat that lies for his purpose here. Orton’s rookie year team could barely score points period, but they went something like 12-4 because they had the best D in the NFL. Yet some at MHR still talk about Orton’s winning persentage and include that season like Orton was the reason Chicago won so many games or their O was unstoppable when in fact, it sucked and so did Orton.

Instead of looking at stats than can lie like crazy. Just watch the games and tell me that the 2009 Orton looked like a red zone weapon we couldn’t do without? You guys want to know why McD drafted Tebow in round 1…. It’s because he wanted a better QB that could make it happen and put points on the board. Maybe not this season as the starter (I hope not for our sakes) but McD will figure out a way to play Tebow from time to time and look for those times to be in the red zone where Tebow proved to be downright legendary as a college player in the best conference in the land.

Denver: 32-32 until we're not.

by McGeorge on Aug 14, 2010 10:35 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

While I would agree

that our offense was less than impressive last year, and that a 48% red zone scoring percentage is not particularly admirable, I would like to offer up this:

We averaged 3.2 red zone trips per game (compared to the two Super Bowl teams that had 3.4 (Ind) and 4.2 (NO)). We averaged converting 1.5 of them. Not a good record.

Orton threw for 21 touchdowns in 2009. 17 of those came in the red zone. 11 of those came from within the opponent’s 10 yard line.

Compare this to Moreno’s yards/attempt average in the red zone which was only 2.4, and only 1.3 inside the 10. If a team does not respect the run, they can more easily defend the pass.

As with most of our offensive woes last year, they cannot simply be laid on the arm of Orton. Does he need to improve? Certainly. From the reports coming out of training camp, that seems to be what’s happening.

McG, I’m disappointed that after suggesting that Doc has spun the stats to favor his view that you would choose to use a generalization:

If Orton was such a great red zone weapon, he’d have played on some high scoring teams as their starting QB.

which totally ignores what Orton was asked to do in Chicago. He was not expected to start his rookie year, in fact, he was expected to be given time to develop. So when circumstances forced him into the starter’s role, he was asked to play conservatively and let the defense dominate. Hence, he was the lowest ranked passer in the league that year.

The following year, the Bears, GM, not comfortable with a 2nd year player as the primary backup brought in veteran Brian Griese and Orton sat a year.

 The third year when both Grossman and Griese suffered injuries and did not play well, Orton went 2-1 as a starter.

His fourth year, he won the starting job away from Grossman, and was still coached to play conservatively — Chicago was using a run-first, let the defense dominate approach. From what I understand of that type of approach, it’s not going to be a high scoring team.

Your position usually has better support than that.

Do I want to see improvement? Absolutely.

But right now, the majority of the reports coming out of training camp, indicate two things: (1)Orton is the best of the three, and (2)Tebow is not nearly ready. So why would you sit your best, in favor of a rookie, who has been repeatedly described as “having a long way to go” in a situation in which the defense has a shortened field to defend, and in which a stop builds momentum for the defense?

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Aug 15, 2010 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Only one Denver QB has a QB rating above 100 in the red zone for any season

The stats aren’t lying about anything, nor did I suggest that Denver’s red zone work last year was good. It was not. Only one Denver QB has achieved that number of a full season and it wasn’t Tebow, nor was it last year in Denver. Please read again.

The problem with last year were legion. However – Orton, having a mediocre line and a poor receiving corps, but a steady system, did have excellent numbers in 2008, in Chicago, as written. Tebow is a hope, but there is not evidence that he’d have been any better in the red zone in 2009 than Orton. Nor is there any reason to believe that h would be any better in 201- – except that people would like it to be so.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

You lose me on: “Nor is there any reason to believe that h (he) would be any better in 201- – except that people would like it to be so.” Creating a fallacy by describing another is not the best way to win an argument. Your apparent dislike for Tebow and claims to not start him seem as bad as claiming that people have no reason to believe that he can be a good starting NFL qb. I think that a wait-and-see type of approach is a much better stance as the article you wrote Doc seems to be on the dividing end. Thanks for the effort, but I don’t think your agruments and personal biasis get through the way you intended.

by Auz on Aug 31, 2010 6:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting perspective, tune

Two points – one, I think that McG was confused. Orton’s 101.8 QB rating in the red zone was 2008, not 2009, which changes everything.that was written beyond that error.

Second – I’ve always read that the back of the end zone provides a ‘12th man’ for the defense, improving their stats against the throw. If you’ve found a different perspective, that’s great. Do you have a source on that? I’d like to put it in the archives accurately. Thanks.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 1:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tune - the red zone rating of Orton's referenced in my article was in 2008 with Chicago.

It went down last year with a new system, coaches, receivers, etc. I get the impression that some folks missed that part, or I said it badly. He had a lousy OL, poor receivers but a consistent system when in Chicago (2005-2008), hence the good RZ numbers. The first half of the season, he was healthy and looked top 10 (if you didn’t watch the games, don’t doubt what you don’t know). After that, he was injured and looked it.

If a player doesn’t have the playbook down, the only thing that can be achieved by tossing him in instead of your starting QB is to give a lot of fodder to those who graze on bales of rumors and to waste chances to score. As far as people not liking the QB rating system; well, life goes on. That doesn’t change the system – or the performance. We have players on the Broncos who can carry the ball – they’re hired to. No need to bring out a second or third string QB to do so, to me at least. As last year showed, if you want short yardage, improve the OL. Tebow doesn’t have any improvement over a starting RB in the red zone, and he’s not a better thrower than the guy who’s doing it now.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

Doc, I wonder how Orton’s red zone QB rating is relative to other QBs.

Because the ratings are based on % of TD per attempt, it seems it would logically be higher in the red zone. Also, interceptions are part of the calcs and generally the frequency of INTs in the red zone are less (excl Cutler) IMO.

Just wondering if his red zone rating is better than the norm.

Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan

by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 7:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

His 2008 red zone numbers, which are (before McG tried to change the year involved) what we were talking about

Are higher than average by quite a bit. The advantage of the defense in the red zone is that the back of the end zone acts as a 12th defender,

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 10:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

Good Question

The back of the endzone acts as a 12th man, making the role of the offense harder, hence the increased TDs by running the ball. For example, in 2008, Cutler had an 86 QB rating and an INT rating of 2.92 and a TD rating of 4.06. In the red zone, he had a 74.1 QB rating, an INT rating of 4.76% and a TD rating of 20.24%. So – and I’ve looked up 3 other QBs and had similar experiences, although there will be differences – you can say that the QB rating tends to be the same or lower overall (depends on the QB), the INTs are usually higher and the TD% is much higher.

There are advantages for the defense in the red zone, but more for the offense. However – while your TD percentage is higher, you lose out on INTs and overall performance. About what I’d expect – you’ll get more TDs because you’re so close, but that 12th man issue can be tough.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 18, 2010 10:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agree Doc, but also sorta w/ tunesmith

I just can’t stomach the NFL Qb rating. It favors dink & dunkers way too much and rewards shot and harmless passes. It also doesn’t give a QB who can run any love. A 15 yard rushing TD by a QB doesn’t show up on this stat just like a fumble doesn’t just like a sack doesn’t.

I know there are some people/websites putting out new variations of this stat and am interested to see what shakes out because there are about 10 or so other QBs I’d rather face 1st and goal from the 8 with than Orton. At least the Orton I’ve seen so far. Sounds like he’s new & improved.

by super7 on Aug 14, 2010 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Lots of folks argue this

I understand their discomfort with a mathematics approach that they don’t understand, but the advantage is simply that it provides a consistent measuring stick. using the accepted approach to measure – whether someone understands it or not – helps keep things more simple and even more accurate. Each player is help to the same standard, and stats for running the ball by QBs are on pro-football-reference.com next to their passing stats.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 2:26 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think its a discomfort with mathematics

… I’m fine with that. In fact, I love advanced stats…. I just think QB-rating is a particularly misleading one.

For me, the discomfort is with the fact that QB-rating essentially double counts completion percentage (it factors in both directly, and also in YPC). QB rating is therefore is biased towards players with high completion % but not necessarily high productivity on those completions.

A great example is how QB rating is how it judges 2 situations:
QB#1 goes 3 for 3 for 9 yards…. punt
QB#2 goes 1 for 3 for 10 yards…. first down

yet QB#1 will have a higher QB rating, even though they have less yards (and if indeed it results in a first down), and potentilaly much less productivity, in the same # of attempts.

If I had more time I’d try to go find red zone DVOA, or some other measure of “success” that might give us a much better view of Orton in the redzone. Overall, looking at team redzone success might also be a better surrogate stat than QB rating as well, though I agree poor rushing performance (like we had last year) will be a confounding issue in the team stats.

by cjfarls on Aug 17, 2010 9:07 AM MDT up reply actions  

I was quoting super 7
I just can’t stomach the NFL Qb rating.

It’s been a common statement, and most of those who make it mention a discomfort in math in their reasoning. Your reasons, I would expect, have been and are different. No surprise to me there. Good examples.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 17, 2010 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

The comment was aimed at super7, who said:
I just can’t stomach the NFL Qb rating.

It’s been a common statement, and most of those who make it mention a discomfort in math in their reasoning. Your reasons, I would expect, have been and are different. No surprise to me there. Good examples of the weaknesses of the system, by the way..

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 17, 2010 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

So he gets some PT as a rookie. He was great in the red zone in college. In fact, he scored more TDs than any other college player ever, and that was in the SEC.

So that is why I think he’ll get his shot here. Because he’s good in this area and Denver couldn’t score points with Mr. Orton as our QB in 2009.

Denver: 32-32 until we're not.

by McGeorge on Aug 14, 2010 10:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

your new avatar is spectacular. He’s dancing (not well) and drinking. priceless.

Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan

by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 10:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

Really?
Denver couldn’t score points with Mr. Orton as our QB in 2009.

Huh. I hadn’t realized that. ;-p

Guess I figured when Orton threw 21 of the team’s 34 touchdowns that that somehow counted as scoring points.

C’mon McG, you’re better than exaggerated generalizations.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Aug 15, 2010 1:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

overall,

Our points per game was not very good, and was right in line with an 8-8 rating. 34 touchdowns isn’t very good. I get that there are reasons other than Orton, but he is the QB, and I don’t think we can argue that Orton 2009 would be super-bowl-quality if only the running backs and WRs were better. I’m hopeful about Orton 2010, but I still don’t yet have faith that he has the ability to assert his will and make magic out of a busted play.

by tunesmith on Aug 15, 2010 4:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

I absolutely agree

We scored 0.316 points per play, which was 20th in the NFL in 2009.

The Super Bowl teams scored 0.509 points/play (NO) and 0.409 points/play.

We have a ways to go.

I still don’t yet have faith that he has the ability to assert his will and make magic out of a busted play.

That is an important question. My take on it is that the McDaniels’ approach is to try and minimize the number of times that he has to do so. And I would much prefer that he throw the ball away on a busted play than attempt to force something & either (a)create a turnover, or (b)get himself injured.

Can he become an “elite” NFL QB. I honestly don’t know. The only thing I think can be definitely stated about Orton is that he has improved every single year he was the primary starter for his team. The question then becomes how long he can continue that trend. I believe this year will give us a better indication — if he improves again, we will know we’re not yet at his ceiling, while if he plateaus, a good case can be made that we are near or at his ceiling.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Aug 15, 2010 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

The busted call

I don’t point to a busted play, but last night, there was a call for a short run. Orton saw that the defense was set for it, changed the call to a sideline route to Lloyd and presto – TD. Can anyone show me any sign this year that he hasn’t stepped into the starting shoes?

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 16, 2010 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

We had the 20th ranked scoring O in the NFL last year and that is bolstered by the fact our kicker was awesome and our D created far more turnovers in 2009 than they did in 2008. We had many more opportunities to work with. Hell, I can think of four Bronco TD drives that started inside the 10 yard line of the opponents (Ty Law int vs KC, Quinn fumble in week 2 vs, Romo fumble and a Raider Int and a Philly fumble). We also had two defensive TDs and two special team TDs in that 34 number. Cutler and Co didn’t have any of these luxuries in 2008 as Prater fell apart and we had the worst D any of us can remember.

You’re crazy if your trying to imply our O was anything better than unimpressive in 2009.

Me do better? I’d like to think you could do better to see what really happened last season. Our O fell off a lot more than from 16th to 20th in scoring if you really look at what went down on the field and go beyond counting TDs. Come on man.

Denver: 32-32 until we're not.

by McGeorge on Aug 18, 2010 10:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

I have never claimed that our 09 offense did not need to improve

I totally agree that there were way too many points left on the field, too many drives that sputtered out, and too many times that we had to settle for a field goal.

What I objected to is your generalization that we couldn’t score points with Orton.

Not all of the missed opportunities are the fault Orton, just they are not all the fault of the play calling, just as they are not all the fault of the penalities by the o-linemen.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Aug 18, 2010 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would agree, except I may even include the occassional 3rd and shorts anywhere.

Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan

by Orange and Blue on Aug 14, 2010 7:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

My (wordy) take...

Just my opinion but….

McD didn’t draft Tebow to sit him for 16 weeks. Tebow will play in special packages. I’d imagine that Tebow will be the #2 QB on gamedays because of the whole active #3 Qb rule.

You don’t take a first round Qb, trade what you traded to get him, and talk about him the way McD talks about him to sit him.

McD has a deliberate plan for him.

He’s not gonna start in 2010, I can tell you that, but I have to imagine that the plan is for him to hopefully be starting within 18 months. That’s not to say he WILL be starting, he has to develop & catch up to the NFL.

Best case scenario? Tebow can’t get on the field because Orton ‘flips the switch’ and becomes a top tier QB. Likliehood of this happening: slim. But I’d love to see it.

McD has a plan that he hopes works and we won’t know the whole picture until it works or doesn’t work. Instead of guessing, we should all be ecstatic that we get to see this grand plan play out for better or worse. I like Orton, a lot! A friend of a friend knows him and raves about what a stand up, cool guy he is.

But I’m going to call a spade a spade: Orton hasn’t ever been better than a middle of the pack QB in the league. That doesn’t mean he can’t become one and doesn’t mean he can. I’m just stating the obvious (my opinion) here. I love building a statistical case for a player, but to me Orton doesn’t pass the eye test to me of a guy an opposing player or coach is too worried about.

It’s rare for a QB to suddenly ascend the ranks and break into the top tier of QBs in the NFL this late in thier career. Brees or Warner or Plunkett count, but this day in age, it’s less than likely.

Tebow’s freshman year at UF may mirror this season. Specialty packages for short yardage, potentially subbing for an innefective Orton, and mop up duty may be where he sees the most action.

McDaniels will put the player (or combination of players) on the field who can be the most effective in a particular situation. If that happens to be Tebow in a situation, then Tebow’s in, regardless of how well Orton’s playing. As a fan, that’s what I want from my coach: No politicking or playing it safe – just playing aggressively for the win by executing as a team.

Quinn was a huge pick up in my eyes because unless Orton ‘flips the switch’ this year, the Broncos don’t need to pick anybody new up or renegotiate anything new next year. If Orton proves he’s a middle o fthe pack guy this year (again) then he’s gone. Denver & the McD’s can get Tebow and/or Quinn into the middle of the pack with some coaching and both players have upside. If Orton doesn’t show he can be better than what he’s proven to be, he’s gone. If he does, then that’s a great problem to have and I’m sure McD can happily manage.

Denver doesn’t have the running game/oline or defense to do anything special without a very good to great QB. Said another way, Denver can’t rely on Orton unless he drastically improves unless Denver’s defense or Oline/Running game improve at an incredible rate.

I think Denver drafted very well this year and decent last year. I love what McD is attempting to do and what message he sends to his team (I hope the door hit B-Marsh in his ass on his way out). If Denver can have 1 more year of adding the same level and amount of players they added this last offseason, they’ll be a very talented bunch on both sides of the ball, but I still see lots of holes that I’m hoping rookies and FA’s fill right away this year for a run to the postseason.

You never know. Not even after the first six weeks (see last year).

Here’s to hoping for 10+ wins and a great year. GO BRONCOS!

by super7 on Aug 14, 2010 7:19 PM MDT reply actions  

This season will be the defining point in his career...

I’m calling it here and now and for the obvious reasons, Kyle Orton is on the bubble of his career and he will have achance to be a superstar or just another mediocre QB in the league. His second year in the system / scheme should be ample time to give him to get on board with his receivers and calling plays from the line of scrimmage. Will he do it? Only time will tell and I’ll tell everyone here, I’ll be rooting for him harder than anyone. The ball is in his court to succeed or fail. If he succeeds then he will get the big payday he deserves and that is worth fighting for in any point of life. If he fails then he will be shuffled around the league much like a Kitna for the rest of his career. I hope he succeeds!

by bfree2bronc on Aug 15, 2010 3:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great article Doc, as usual. Rec'd

Like many, I like what I see in the development of the Broncos – the attempt to upgrade the depth of talent at all positions and the attempt to groom the players to feel comfortable in a complex system that is intended to be flexible and adaptible enough to use the talent available to contend with and defeat any “system” facing it.

That the reports from camp insist that Orton has made great strides in mastering and managing others in “the system” doesn’t surprise me. I expect noticeable improvement across the board even though there will be many playing major roles who are relatively new to “the system”.

My contention has become that for a QB to thrive in “the system” that McD is running his skill starts with “football smarts” (the ability to master the system, make quick reads and decisions), pass accuracy, arm strength and mobility, in that order.

Of the three QBs currently in camp, Orton is obviously well ahead of the other two in the first two (“smarts” and “accuracy”), apparently ( and surprisingly) equal in arm strength, and perhaps third in mobiliby (the least important).

I think Orton has a long way to go before he will totally master the system (which I now think he might do in another year or two). I’m not sure that either Quinn or Tebow have the “smarts” that Orton does. They may have, but it will take a couple of years for them to catch up – if they ever do. (Their better mobility IMO is only a secondary, if not totally inconsequential, advantage.) They may do so, but that is yet to be seen.
Quinn has not demonstrated to this point that he has anywhere near the “smarts” that Orton has though he may have comparable accuracy and arm strength (maybe even slightly improved arm strength.
Tebow has only shown arm strength comparable to Orton’s and better mobility. But his accuracy is a big question (perhaps because of his flawed techinque) and, in college, he did not show noticeable “football smarts” (ability to make quick reads and reactions), maybe because he was not required to do so (but perhaps because he is not able to do so, as some have contended).
In any event, IMO he has a long way to go before he is NFL ready to provide a big impact. If they use him in “wild horses” situations, it will be more to keep his interest in the game (and some fans) and to give the opposition something to think about, that it will be to provide a strategy to win games.
I don’t see either Quinn or Tebow replacing Orton (except for injury) for a while.

by ivanthenotsobad on Aug 14, 2010 9:06 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Ah! The refreshing cold water of critical thinking dousing the fires of hot cognition.

On my desk is a plaque that says “On what do you bias your opinion?” It’s near impossible to change some people’s minds because their entire intellectual construct is not based in logic, but in emotion disguised as reasoned thought. There is even evidence now that different areas of brain activation occur that provide signals that can be perceived as pleasurable when people are affirmed in their rightness, even when it’s totally wrong!

Imagination is more important than knowledge. A. Einstein

by Ponderosa on Aug 15, 2010 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

Great plaque!

McG had to change both the year and team being discussed to invent (I can’t even call that one ‘make’) his point. And, he’s easily bright enough to know it, but finds it less troublesome (and more fun) than to deal with than staying with the subject at hand. Orton’s numbers were excellent in the red zone, 2008, because he had a consistent system, if not a great one, and because Orton did an excellent job in the red zone in 2008. Simple.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 10:52 AM MDT up reply actions  

Communication is determined by purpose

If the purpose is to inflame and draw attention to one’s self as opposed to the purpose of objectively exploring a topic then one understands the illogical. As far as I’m concerned Doc I’ll stick with your logic.

"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."

by BroncoCUbuffs on Aug 15, 2010 10:57 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks, BCUB

I do find it interesting how quickly a person accuses me of lying with stats but gets both the year and team that Orton was with wrong. You see in others what you act out in yourself.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Borderline 'con man'...

Tell you anything to see if you’ll believe it…Look up the stats and find the answers for youself and then nobody can con you!

by bfree2bronc on Aug 15, 2010 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions  

re: where in the brain

Here’s where (for all of those who are interested in biology);

LINK

" -I have close friends in both camps, in which I have observed the following: no matter the issue under discussion, both sides are equally convinced that the evidence overwhelmingly supports their position.

This surety is called the confirmation bias, whereby we seek and find confirmatory evidence in support of already existing beliefs and ignore or reinterpret disconfirmatory evidence. Now a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) study shows where in the brain the confirmation bias arises and how it is unconscious and driven by emotions. "
" – The neuroimaging results, however, revealed that the part of the brain most associated with reasoning—the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex—was quiescent. Most active were the orbital frontal cortex, which is involved in the processing of emotions; the anterior cingulate, which is associated with conflict resolution; the posterior cingulate, which is concerned with making judgments about moral accountability; and—once subjects had arrived at a conclusion that made them emotionally comfortable—the ventral striatum, which is related to reward and pleasure. "

"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - cited in The Paranoid Style in American Politics

by Colinski on Aug 15, 2010 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Doc forgot one thing

Part of the start TT crowd are McD haters who would love to see failure by both

Personally, I’d love ve to see a Rodgers siituation, especially since sitting a year at UF allowed TT to acclimate to"college speed".

by TT15Superman on Aug 15, 2010 7:24 AM MDT reply actions  

Heretic!

Grin Good point, TT. I can’t even get my head around the folks who wish failure on guys from their own team, and the point regarding college has been left off most people’s radar entirely, including my own. Nice work, my friend.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

what I've read

Some of the posters advocating starting TT seem to think we’re in a complete rebuilding mode and therefore need to put him through a baptism by fire (odd choice of words but it’s what I’ve been calling it). I’ve posted on this subject a number of times and I see no value to throwing players in before they’re ready. It’s simply something you don’t do unless you absolutely have to.

I can’t say whether all the TT boosters agree with my position on baptism by fire but there’s a seeming willingness (and sometimes it’s overt) to lose games in order to improve once TT gains experience. This is an astonishing attitude since it’s only employed once a team reaches rock bottom (in general). It’s saying that we have nothing that we can win this year so we might as well give the younger players experience.

IMO — the idea that we’re a terrible team that should throw in the towel (and thus also give TT playing experience before he’s ready) is a vestigial cognition from what some fans believed when we traded Cutler and the anti-McDaniels stuff started. In essence, they’re still going off what they believed then and haven’t updated their beliefs to account for events since then.

"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - cited in The Paranoid Style in American Politics

by Colinski on Aug 15, 2010 2:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes. In other words, make things harder on yourself.

It’s kind of a bizarre theory, but I’ve run into it often as well.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

The excitement of the coming season mounts...

I’ve always seen things in a slightly different light than most folks and that’s just fine with me…I don’t like to see a rookie quarterback starting for anybody esspecially our team. It’s like making a freshman in high school the senior class president, it has never happened that I know of and if it did, then it only means they were very desperate to some kind of leadership. Head coaches are learning this and opting sometimes to set their rookie for a half season or the whole thing. Usually HC’s bow to pressure of the media when it get’s that bad and it could happen with Kyle Orton this season, not saying that it will, just that it could. McD stated that Kyle hasn’t reached his ceiling yet and that is an accurate observation that can be seen by just about anyone. Kyle has showed me a kind of suave that is hard to master, most people’s nerves get rattled during a situation like that and blurt things that they neccesarily wouldn’t and do things they wouldn’t do. Kyle has been smooth in that area. I look for great things to happen and like you Bear, barring injury Kyle may have a spectacular season…Thanks for the great article…

by bfree2bronc on Aug 15, 2010 10:26 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Coach McDaniels has a thought process that most successful people have...

It’s the ability to make the best long term decisions for his team without regard for criticism, recent results, or what is traditionally considered normal or correct. In gambling parlance we call this making the most +EV decisions and not being results oriented. We saw this last year when Kyle Orton threw 3 interceptions in the first half of a preseason game and everyone immediately called for Simms. McDaniels never wavered that Orton was his starter…after all, Kyle Orton had been the most consistent QB in practice up to that point and his body of work was more important than the results of one specific game. Some think McDaniels is stubborn and arrogant…I personally think he’s really smart.

There should only be one question asked when determining both what situations Tebow will be used in and if / when he will start. That question is does he put the team in the best position to be successful on that particular play and the best overall position to win the game. If the answer to that question is no and Kyle Orton gives the team the best chance to succeed in that situation, Tim Tebow should not be on the field. McDaniels understands this.

It takes a lot of conviction to formulate a long term plan, understand that it’s a process, and stick to it when things are going poorly and you are under pressure to make a rash decision. If you look at rash QB decisions in this league (starter performs poorly, the next week someone else gets the start), those teams aren’t really successful long term because it reflects how the coach makes decisions.

http://www.bluefirepoker.com/blog.aspx?blogid=68
twitter.com/chantech

by chantech on Aug 15, 2010 11:36 AM MDT reply actions   3 recs

And it seems the MSM don't get this

because they constantly rip McDaniels on several moves that he has made. Your last paragraph is the reason the QB situation was a mess in Cleveland last year.

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Aug 16, 2010 9:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Succinct and accurate,chantech. Thanks for stopping in!

Interesting coincidence – from today’s Post:

http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_15775208
Discussion of how well Orton looks, TC 2010
Orton is the starting quarterback and unquestioned leader of the Broncos’ offense.
“I’m feeling great,” Orton said. “This is still the best that I’ve felt, and I’m throwing the ball better than I ever have and mentally just playing at a high level right now.”
In Orton’s head, things are clearer. In the huddle, his voice is louder and more confident. And when the ball is snapped, it’s almost as if he’s a different player.
“The other day, he zipped one in in the red zone, and I think everyone turned around and was like, ‘Is that Kyle’s ball?’ because it had so much zip on it,” cornerback Andre Goodman said. “You can tell he’s been working.”

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 15, 2010 12:40 PM MDT reply actions  

Tebow should absolutely NOT sit on the bench

He should stand as close to the field as possible and watch everything Orton and the opposing defense does.

by admill on Aug 16, 2010 8:01 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Tebow will start when Orton fails

Nice post BTW gave you a rec.

As soon as Denver loses three in a row and/or Denver is out of the playoff picture Tebow will start. I appreciate your methodical approach to having Tebow sit until he is ready. However, I want to point out that Sam Bradford looked horrible and he will probably start in Week 1. A lot of that has to do with being a first round pick. Also, the psychology of a team taking the plunge on a first round QB means that they are not committed to and have given up on their current starter. Barring a miracle playoff run Tebow starts at some point this year.

by agentj007 on Aug 16, 2010 3:11 PM MDT reply actions  

What if they don't?

If Taylor Swift were to try and tackle me, I'd let her.
If someone owned an ICEE truck and wanted to kidnap me, I'd let them.

by Troy Hufford on Aug 16, 2010 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting observation:
a team taking the plunge on a first round QB means that they are not committed to and have given up on their current starter.

There’s really no evidence that McDaniels has given up on Orton, just that he most likely sees Tebow as Orton’s eventual successor. When Tebow demonstrates that he is the best QB on the team, McDaniels will start him. Until then, he will be a backup learning the game. Right now, Orton is the best QB on the roster according to the coach.

Sam Bradford is probably not an effective parallel, given the fact that Bradford is replacing Marc Bulger who has only played in 35 out of St. Louis’ last 48 games, has a 5-30 record in those games, and has thrown 27 TDs vs 34 Ints. The Rams felt they did not have a viable option with their veteran.

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Aug 16, 2010 5:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

This!

No commitment made by draft position, only by play. After all, we are not oakland (and Tebow no way is Jamarcus the Hut, either).

by idahobronc on Aug 16, 2010 7:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

the 1st round logic
. ..the psychology of a team taking the plunge on a first round QB means that they are not committed to and have given up on their current starter ..
There’s really no evidence that McDaniels has given up on Orton,

I’ll jump in once more. Teams that draft QBs in the early 1st are in very different situations than Denver. Examples of valid applications of this are Detroit (09 – Stafford) and St. Louis (Bradford). Teams drafting in the very early portion of the draft are teams that have enormous needs. It’s not necessarily the case that QB is one of them but the bottom dwellers that do draft a QB are in need of a QB, so there’s some slippery logic going on here. And it can be thought of probabilistically, too, since bottom dwellers (i.e., the worst teams) are going to need a QB more often than most teams, and they’re also more likely to find an upgrade if they take a QB with one of the top picks.

With all due respect to agentj007, there’s almost a willy-nilly application of rules to inappropriate situations here. Drafting a QB ‘somewhere’ in the 1st round means only that there was justification for the pick at that point. A late 1st round pick is not a huge investment, and all the Tebow pick really meant was that he was a good prospect to help us down the line (and we lacked a quality developmental prospect, although Brandstater held some promise). Indeed, there was some ‘uncertainty’ regarding Orton that related to his contract status. He might have been signed away come FA period (March?) and left us without a QB, which is a far different situation than our “not being committed” to him. The fact that we have now have an alternative (including Quinn) gives us leeway in negotiations. Otherwise, we’d have a weak hand in bargaining and be forced to overpay.

I realize now that I should have discussed the valid reasons for “strengthening the QB position” after mentioning that it was misunderstood in my previous post. I thought that saying that it was an “important position” was adequate for explanatory purposes. I’ll rephrase the idea in simple terms: what do we do if Orton is injured? The answer to this question and the reason for drafting Tebow are the same. And also, so is the reason for trading for Quinn. Taking it further, why would we suspect that Orton might become injured? — just look at his injury reports for the last few years.

"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - cited in The Paranoid Style in American Politics

by Colinski on Aug 17, 2010 12:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice reply, Colinski

I’ve found Occam’s Razor to be often overused, but it came to mind when I read these two quotes from coach McDaniels this morning: (Link)

On the reason for bringing in QBs Brady Quinn and Tim Tebow during the offseason
“Competition. We felt like there were certain spots on our roster last year that we didn’t have enough in-house competition to help push each of those players that were in those starting roles to continue to improve. It’s one thing when you hear a coach yelling at you all day long about doing this right or doing that right, it’s another thing when you can see, ‘There are some other guys at my spot and they do some good things too.’ We added depth in the defensive line, did the same thing in the secondary, we were aggressive in terms of receivers – brought in a couple guys in the draft, re-signed (WR) Brandon Lloyd. Same thing on the offensive line, so there really wasn’t a spot that we didn’t try to address in terms of adding competition because we just thought that would make our players better and (QB) Kyle (Orton) has been the perfect example of what we hoped to get out of a lot of our players which is, he’s come out, he’s had a great training camp, he answered a challenge, he’s responded perfectly to a competitive situation – that’s all it is – and he’s been a very solid leader and set a great example for the team.”

On how much higher QB Kyle Orton can take his game
“He can go higher, I know that for sure. He’s playing very smart right now, he’s very accurate – there’s nothing really that we’re not doing offensively that I’ve ever done in the past that he’s incapable of doing and running at a high level but there is still more to do. I know he thinks that, I know we think that as a staff, which is exciting for us and we’re going to try to push him as far as we can go before opening day and then continue to push through the season.”

There have been several comments recently as to whether or not Orton’s ceiling has been reached (It interested me that in some comments from last year’s TC excerpts, several fans noted that he had clearly reached his ceiling and should be treated in that light). I think that this was direct enough from McD to answer that question fairly.

It’s also worth at least consideration that if the staff continues to decide that he hasn’t reached that ceiling, even with the substantial improvement over the past offseason, that it probably makes more sense to keep the QB who your team has had for a couple of years and who has greatly improved over that time, and who seems to be continuing to do so. I haven’t been to camp personally, since I can’t travel, but when the HC makes comments like that, it carries a lot of weight for me.

Again – M. Lombardi’s article on ‘Will the Real Kyle Orton Please Stand Up?’ called for exactly the same thing – competition to drive Orton, not to drive him out of Denver. Last night was only a single quarter in a 1st preseason game, but given the performance he put in against a defense that had played a game already, he was pretty impressive.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 17, 2010 6:36 PM MDT up reply actions  

Agree completely

A late round first is a very different scale of investment than a top-5 pick.

Tebow’s draft position puts him more akin to Kevin Kolb, Brian Brohm or Drew Stanton than it does similar to Stafford/Bradford. If he succeeds a year or 2 after sitting on the bench (Kolb?), its a huge win for the team. If he fails (Brohm/Stanton)… well, it happens.

Top QB prospects never drop to even the late 1st round…. the fact that Tebow did drop as far as he did indicates to me: 1) that he has significant issues in his game that create a large “bust” risk, and 2) that expectations for him as a 1st year wunderkind are probably unreasonable.

That said, Tebow’s upside is as high as any 1st round QB ever, so to me, the relatively modest investment of a late 1st looks like a great gamble. Even if he busts, it doesn’t mean it was a bad bet… it just wasn’t a “winner” bet.

by cjfarls on Aug 18, 2010 12:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

Well said
Even if he busts, it doesn’t mean it was a bad bet… it just wasn’t a "winner" bet

This is something that is hard on fans, but it’s part of the game. You make bets on draft choices. UDFAs start to star (Rod Smith, Antonio Gates) and 1st picks tank – Ryan Leaf, JM Russell and Company, etc. It’s going to happen. Tebow may yet blossom – he’s off to a decent start – but there’s a lot of time and games between then and now. Thanks for your thoughtful responses and contributions, cj

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 18, 2010 3:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

The bet also has a hedge

(is that the correct term?)

Even if he fails as a QB (although right now he’s promising, for sure), the kid can run! Say in a few years he hasn’t worked out at QB, he doesn’t just disappear like Leaf, Russell et al, I think you can use him on the field in some regard – he’s a true Football Player. You don’t break Herschel Walker’s TD record and have no skills in that department.

So I see you rolled your way into the semis?

by OutOfYourElement on Aug 18, 2010 5:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hedge is a good word

Fair point – if he isn’t a starting QB, he’s a football player somewhere, no doubt ;-)

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 18, 2010 8:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

007 showing his bias again.

Assumption that 1) Broncos lose 3 in a row, and 2) if they do, it will be veiwed as QB play that needs to be changed. There is a lot of ways to win and lose a game.

by idahobronc on Aug 16, 2010 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

your 1st round theory is not backed up by recent history

To name a few:
Eli- 1st round sat for a season
Palmer- 1st round sat for a season
Rivers-1st round sat for two seasons
Rodgers-1st round sat for three seasons

by admill on Aug 17, 2010 6:21 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nice list

Thanks

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Aug 17, 2010 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bradford

A lot has to do with him possible being the best quarterback on that team, if he’s the best they have, which I think he is, I understand them starting him.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Aug 17, 2010 2:38 PM MDT up reply actions  

Here ya go Max,

St Louis is probably seeing Bradford as an upgrade over Bulger. I wrote this in a comment above:

. . . Bradford is replacing Marc Bulger who has only played in 35 out of St. Louis’ last 48 games, has a 5-30 record in those games, and has thrown 27 TDs vs 34 Ints . . .

We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough

by Brian Shrout on Aug 17, 2010 6:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks Brian

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Aug 18, 2010 1:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

Interesting starts for all 3 QBs against Cincy

Orton remains head and shoulders above the other two. His performance showed that. Quinn is struggling, much as he did in Cleveland and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Tebow pass him up for #2 this month. Tebow looked fine, considering that he was in there with the third string – although he had some good players around him, too. He was exactly what you’d expect – looked great one moment, looked lost the next. Nice final TD

But nothing, to me, has really changed. Orton looks like a #1 QB – in fact, granting that it was just preseason, and that’s a little different – he looked like he was ready to do something that almost no one covering football would have admitted to – the offense looked dominant when he was in. Sure, it’s a first preseason game, but who would say, hey, it’s preseason, no problem if he’s terrible. Some of the comments show how close to the edge many fans are – WHEN, they say, Orton drops maybe three in a row, they’ll bring out Tebow. Really? Lots of assumptions – the first is that Denver will drop 3-5 in a row. Apparently, some folks don’t think that the rest of the team can develop, or that Orton will be at the root of the problem. Both assumptions are at some level of potential question. So, if the D collapses, you change QBs? That’s not my general experience. What if Orton seems to be the bright spot in that situation. Do you pull a player who’s doing well so that you can toss in a rookie QB? Again – that’s just not my experience. Perhaps it’s yours.

If the pass rush doesn’t improve, Orton will probably be in shoot-outs more regularly. I’m not sure that he’s not up to that – he was last night, and yet last night wasn’t regular season. However, you couldn’t fairly say from his performance that he would NOT have been comfortable in a shoot-out situation, either. Orton has grown as a QB, has grown as a person and as a leader. Tebow will have to play better than Orton did last night to win his starts – and that may be tougher than anyone imagined. But it’s early, and there’s a lot of football to be played. One preseason game does not a trend make, on either side.

Last point – drafting a late 1st round (or 2nd, 3rd or 4th, for that matter) doesn’t indicate anything except that that QB position needed to be upgraded. Simms was a disaster, Quinn was a long shot, and Brandstater will probably be ready, but probably too late. Drafting a late first round QB who may be a project – and still looked like one, improving but hardly ready – shows that you realize that a run on injuries can expose a team quickly. That’s why NE had Cassel and now Denver has Tebow. Tebow may eventually start – but the difference last night was still substantial. Nothing has really changed, although Quinn’s position is certainly more available.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 16, 2010 6:16 PM MDT reply actions  

I agree with what you’re saying, Doc. I have seen 007 talking crazy about 3-5 losses in row. This will not happen as long as Orton is healthy, so his argument is moot.

Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan

by Orange and Blue on Aug 16, 2010 9:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

Did I miss something

Denver had two losing streaks of four games last year. Orton was healthy and on the field when those losing streaks were happening. Did you remember something else?

by agentj007 on Aug 16, 2010 10:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

last yr v. this yr are two different situations.

If you are going to use historical data to support your point of what might happen, then you have give credence to the fact that the offense in the 1st preseason under Orton this year was VASTLY better than last year’s 1st preseason performance. If anything, Orton has shown us great improvement in his proper decision-making and not anywhere near what he looked like last year at this time. There is actual proof he has improved.

You also have to give him his health as a factor for his improvement.

Listen, the problem I have with your opinion is your prediction of Orton to fail. That just doesnt sit well if you are rooting for Denver to win. The coach, the guy who sees and decides the QB position, believes in Orton…isnt that enough?

But you can have your opinions.

Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan

by Orange and Blue on Aug 16, 2010 10:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yes, I do. Don't you?

Look I know that you’re a rabid Tebowite, but get a grip. Gosh, what’s different about Orton?

He’s playing in the same system for two years. He’s getting decent coaching for the first time since he left Purdue. He’s not playing on two bad ankles with a healing fracture in the forefinger on the throwing hand. He’s playing with much the same receivers for the second year in a row.

And, someone threw two TDs in his first quarter of play, and it surely wasn’t TT. As for your ‘healthy and on the field’ try, since one ankle injury was from 2008 and we got Orton in 2009, that’s more than unlikely – it’s impossible. He started the season with the forefinger fracture on the throwing hand and got the ankle injury about midseason. He hasn’t played uninjured in almost 2 years.

Facts are helpful things.

Gnothi Seauton

by Doc Bear on Aug 16, 2010 11:08 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

I would say I remember something else

KO was on bum ankles most all of last season. The Robot Statue description would be appropriate for his play last year. I look for that to change this season and we saw a glimpse of that this past Sunday.

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Don’t worry about it. As an ignorant redneck, I’m qualified to say that.

by Sean in Pa. on Aug 19, 2010 10:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

Orton is a lot better than I thought he would be . He is the best of the 3. I think Tebow is in a great positon to learn and not be thrown to the wolves too soon. With Orton healthy and a year of McD’s system under his belt looking better than last year, Denver now has 3 quarterbacks all better then the at the same position last. Ask yourselves Orton this or Orton last year, Quinn or Simms , Tebow or Bandstater. We are definitely improved at the quarterback positon.

by m l on Aug 31, 2010 7:22 AM MDT reply actions  

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