McDaniels and green shoots

McG is excited over this team. Just playin bro, I’ve always thought you’ve gotten a bad rap at times – but then there are other times when I felt you deserved it. lmao I try not to take things personal, however, so I rec’d this post.

If you are excited, then I am going to have to jump back on the 13-3 bandwagon!

13-3 baby! heh

You have to understand that much of what happened in the 2009 offseason was Pat Bowlen’s doing – especially as it pertains to Cutler and the Goodmans

Good to see your altered perspective on the coach. Many, like me, who were excited at the outset and liked most of his moves when he got here, are thankfully seeing the tree bear fruit. See, his offense does take 2 yrs to sink in.

Those who were skeptics (many still are) will dwindle in #’s as McD (and Xanders) show their blueprint of the making a winning team.

Glad to see you come around on him.

Rec’d

Nice perspective on how your viewpoint has changed, much like McDaniels seems to have gotten more comfortable here in Denver.

Who cares if McD actually considered the Cassell deal? In the end he made the right decision, so there’s no basis for negativity there.
Agree that he should have been much more conservative in the 09 draft, which would mean that we’d have had another mid first round pick this year, and could have taken, say, Dan Williams, who will be a mcuh better player in the league than Alphonso.
You didn’t mention picking Robert Ayers.
One good reason to bash McD is dumping Peyton Hillis.
The rest of what he’s done looks pretty good.

They are rare, but we enjoy them McG, nice work. By the way, since I keep a running ratio of posts to comments, you should know yours went from 791.5 comments to one post to 703.5, that’s the largest jump I’ve seen since I started tracking it. Another thing, you’ve abandon your Orton profile, pick, what does this mean?

McD has made some nice moves and some terrible moves in the short term. He nailed free agency in 2009 but botched the draft. I hated the Moreno move. To me it seemed like a move to keep him from going to SD instead of worrying about more pressing concerns on the defensive side. The Phonz trade could end up going down as one of the worst moves the franchise has ever made. Right up there with Clarrett and Paul Toviessi. On the flip side the Hill, Dawkins and Goodman signings were brilliant.

Although I’m not overly optimistic on this teams chances for this year I’m absolutely pumped for the future of the franchise. Hopefully these young lineman can learn and progress throughout the year. Contrary to some peoples opinions I absolutely thought Tebow looked solid in his debut. Especially for a rookie QB. The young safeties look like they could take over in next year. The receiver group looks like they have many productive years a head of them. I think a 1st round pick spent on a MLB next year is a must.

Rec’d

Thanks for your insight McG. I have been thinking about some of your comments and now I see better where you’re coming from.

Even though I think Alfonso is only so-so and may not get better, I was never bothered by McD trading up to get him. I want the coach the team I’m rooting for to take risks if he believes they’re worth the reward. I want him to get a player he likes, even when that player doesn’t pan out, just like I want him to go for it on 4th down and I want him to go for a 2 pointer to win the game rather than play for a tie. I think it makes the game fun and it gives me confidence and respect his character—I know he’s a grab the gusto kind of guy and I’m all for that.

As far as the Cutler deal, I never really disliked him until the whole “I’m not talking to you” thing came up. To me that was like being back in Junior High. “You’re not my friend any more so I’m not going to talk to you!” That’s why I’m so loving Orton, he’s a top notch guy when it comes to character.

In case you haven’t noticed, I’ve used “character” as a benchmark twice already in this post. I think it’s the bottom line for people in all walks of life. When Jay was Denver’s QB, I rooted for the team just as I have since I was a child—with all my heart. But his knack for Red Zone picks was annoying. That’s what I was interested in McD making a QB change, I figured at least I won’t suffer those game ending heartbreaks. And the more everyone else called Orton a game manager, the better I felt.

But beyond the 4th quarter heartbreaks, I saw something I liked in Orton—his determination to overcome the odds. The more people pooh-poohed him, the more I saw a guy quietly going about his business to become a better player. I loved this.

And I took the coaches on face value. They said it took time to learn the offense. They said they were drafting players because the were looking do develop them over several years. I was in heaven! Instead of a year fix via free agents (which never really seemed to fix things) under the previous coaches, I was being treated to a team thinking about long term goals and solutions. I had the best of both worlds—a coach willing to take risks and a play to build a dynasty that could be enjoyed for a decade, ala the Patsies.

Life is good being a Bronco’s fan right now. I’m happy to hear you’re starting to enjoy those green shoots as well.

Go Broncos!

IMHO, McGeorge staked out an opinion early on, and now he has to defend it no matter what. Smith made some bonehead plays, but he also made some very good plays. Focusing only on the bad plays is unfair. Everyone makes mistakes. The jury is still out on Smith, and I think everyone should wait and see what happens.

But I totally agree about McDaniels. He has won me over, and I am starting to see his vision for the team.

Overall, nice work McGeorge. It’s great to see you express your optimism from time to time. Well done.

Rec’d and enjoyed the reading even if it was painful to get through the first part.

I for one am solidly still in the boat of “You are out of your mind thinking McDaniels did anything more than listen to an offer.”

I will say this about McX – their pro personnel department is very good so far. A lot of production from those free agents without the huge, crippling contracts that plagued the later parts of the Shanny era.

Is this going to be an annual thing, where you knock our socks off with an inspired, upbeat review of the State of the Broncos? I sure hope so. Great analysis, fairly defended points, and a helpful key to your unique, well articulated worldview. Your reading of the Cassell situation, imo, is spot on. Major props!

One thought for you about the rash decision making of 2009. I agree that the best, safest, most rational approach, when you’re new and inexperienced, is to tread carefully when it comes to spending your capital (e.g. the Cutler trade haul). It does seem to me though that there were so many changes required, top to bottom, in the organization that some boldness wasn’t completely unwarranted. Not that this excuses errors or makes them any less controversial. I just don’t hear much talk about the scope of the problems that the new team was confronted with when they hit the ground running at Dove Valley, and how that may have influenced the decision making that took place.

Seems like the impulse many felt (including me) was to jump in and defend those moves as a way of showing our support for the team at a time of great controversy and upheaval. IMHO, giving these issues their due, precisely as you have, does a great service to our fan base. So thanks for the perspective and for keeping it real.

Wish I could give you more than one rec, but I have a feeling you’ll be getting another record catch here, anyway. So I’ll just say thanks.

I really appreciate this post — not because you’ve come to the pro-McDaniels side, but rather because I now have a better understanding of the way you’ve thought, and are thinking about the Broncos.

Rec’d for the depth you’ve shared.

Off the subject — I’d like to share one short Broncos’ anecdote that your subtitle “Blocking the Kick Off” brought to mind.

Years ago, I watched a Broncos game in which Jim Turner (Broncos’ place kicker from 1971-1979 for our younger fans) approached the ball for a kickoff. I cannot for the life of me remember whether he was attempting an onside kick, a squib, or if he simply mis-kicked the ball, but the result was a line drive shot that hit one of the front line defenders in the chest, and bounced directly back to one of the Broncos special teams players.

Like I suspect for most of us, you caught me of guard with the first line in the post!! If the glass-half-empty guys and the glass-half-full guys begin to agree that the glass is 3/4 full, it can only mean good things, right? :D We’re not there yet, but it feels like progress. Thanks for the post, McG.

Your analysis of the 2009 draft and botched Cassel/Cutler deal made a lot of sense to me. Last years preseason was somewhat painful and had to understand. Although, I have to admit I did have high expectations for Smith. Those have since deminished considerably. I’d cut the strings now instead of waiting ’till next year.
I agree this offense, particulary if the running game gets jumpstarted, can be something special. Now if we can just get the defense working and find those missing pieces…………..

I am still of the mindset that McD ‘listened’ to offers about Cassel, and did not take part in instigating those talks. Likely, none of us will ever know for certain.

As for Alphonso, I definitely wonder wth he was thinking on that ST play…. And have to only hope he learns from it…. Not to mention ONLY getting a hand on the Lions QB, when dude ran it in for a 20 yard score…. I can only hope he was still used to the TC practices where you basically only tap the QB to indicate you got ’im…. That and that he learns quickly and decisively from his mistakes. He still has great potential, despite his size. Only time will tell.

Again, thanks for the thoughts, great read.

HaHa. I like your grudging change of perception and agree with most of what’s here. We’re all looking forward to the Broncos being more successful than last year.

I thought we would for sure be targeting Rey Maualuga when we traded up with that pick, which in hindisight seems like the smarter move by far, but I think I understand now why you are so hard on Alphonso Smith. The 2010 draft was a good one on paper, to be sure, and the 2009 one was top heavy but weak overall. Not that we couldn’t have gotten a good player in round two (reports were our top target in round two was James Laurinaitis).

I think your reasoning for NOT trading that pick is spot on. What we could have had is irrellevant at this point, but I suppose that’s not the point. He DID admit that he had little time to scout that draft, yet he still traded away a very valuable asset for what was being forecasted as a very deep draft. I get it now. Not that I would harp on Smith too much for something he couldn’t control, but that player does have higher expectations IMO. Valuable asset, hopefully he can turn out to be a valuable contributor.

God post, McGeorge. I recommend it.

Josh McDaniels won me over last with “All we’re trying to do is win a motherf****** game!”

Alphonso Smith was a terrible idea, can’t put the blame directly on him though… We blew a a 2010 1st round pick on him and he was at best a 3rd round prospect. We ended up with the 2nd coming of Karl Paymah instead of Cortland Finnegan.

The 2010 draft impressed me, took me a while to warm up to Tim Tebow (still is taking me time to warm up to him considering Orton’s sudden awesomeness).

In all seriousness, I can’t say I disagree with anything you wrote in this post. I think that you are absolutely right in being upset about trading a first for a second, but your anger over McDaniels’ decision shouldn’t cause you to root against Phonz. I still think that we’ve got to let this thing play out. If Champ went out with injury tomorrow, we’d be in serious trouble. However, I don’t think we should give up on Phonz at this point, either. He does have talent and he can correct his mistakes. Whether or not he does that is up to him, but I certainly don’t think that we should pull the plug just yet.

Rec’d.

it became the most rec’d article of all time. 88 recs.

In the first 7 hours, this has 43 recs.

People love to see a positive McGeorge because it’s not something that is seen very often.

We are in a time in which there are a lot of questions being asked about our team.
Your optimistic post is a very nice change of pace. Thanks for the article. Well done.

Add another rec from me.

My idea of the Cassel trade is similar, but without much “actively pursued” interest by McDaniels. Cassel was known to be moved once NE got the confirmation that Brady would be good. Cassel was going to go somewhere. McD could have pursued it at any time, but wasn’t in front of KC to the dance. If he truely wanted Cassel over Cutler, he’d have been first in line with a trade idea in mind.

Now, I think this year is showing WHY he wanted Cassel. Orton’s second year in the system shows what a big improvement can be made from the first year to the second year. I think McDaniels in his “win now!” mode thought it would be better (short term success) to have Cassel as QB over Cutler. As talented as Cutler is, he still would’ve had his serious bumps the first year. Added to his interception ability, it could’ve been ugly at times.

It seems to be that 2009 was all about “win now!”. That should explain the Phonz pick, the best CB (when measured by interceptions) in the draft. Quinn, the best blocking tight-end (which the system covets). Moreno, the best running back in the draft. Ayers, the best 3-4 olb prospect.

I think McDaniels was really thinking these rookies would be contributing more to the win now, which can explain the over aggresiveness to last year and entertaining the Cassel trade. I do think he learned a valuable lesson though as evident in his two drafts so far.

on this planet I’ve come to appreciate strong opinions from intelligent people – whether they are presented in a “nice” way or otherwise. It seems to me that McGeorge bravely thinks his own thoughts and forms his own opinions based on a deep knowledge of the game. I thank you for your efforts. Keep up the good work sir! rec’d.

Nice post with well reasoned perspective. Thanks for giving us a glimpse of the world as you see it. So much of the angst around Mcd’s arrival centered on the Cutler fiasco and did indeed polarize the Bronco fan base. I also appreciate that you shared your personal story regarding the inside details of the Cassell non-trade. Given that, I can now see why you were so anti Mcdaniels in year one. There’s always 2 sides to every story though and I’m sure people on the inside of the Mcdaniels camp have their own version. My belief was always in the middle, I do believe that Mcdaniels wanted to trade Cutler before he even got here and that he had good solid logic for wanting to do so. Given the complexity of his system, the discipline required by the Qb to run it and the way the Patsies destroyed us in 08 I believe that right or wrong Mcd believed that Cutler could not run his offense effectively. This led to a series of events that ultimately garnered KO and 2 1st’s. Only time will tell who ultimately wins that trade and it could also be that both sides win. Anyway glad you’re starting to see things with a different perspective and thanks for the post!

I think this was a very reasoned analysis, and I enjoy your commentary all be it contrarian at times!

somebody blocked the opening kickoff on me. That was the last time I played Madden online.

i have to say, whenever you post something positive, the reaction’s amazingly… hardy. i feel like i’m missing the caroling around the tree after you brought all the presents back to whoville or something. (thanks for doing that, by the way.)

anyway, i’m with you on mcD. i’ve never been full on against him but i haven’t been driving his float in the parade either. he handled his rookie year with the deftness of a bison folding dress shirts (imo), but now he’s got his program in, shanny’s people out, and it’s a new day. i’ll admit, i’m not seeing this top 5 or 10 defense everyone’s chirping about, i’m still not convinced about orton despite his MVP caliber preseason, and the offensive line looks like it could boot the whole show before halloween. but to me, the worst part of mcD is out of the way and i’m guessing we’ll see more and more of his strengths show. turn this thing around and we’re all happy, right?

Rec’d.

 I totally get where you are coming from now. We agree completely on the Smith draft deal, but I am not as mad about the Cutler deal as you. I feel there was a disconnect between them, and Jay pissed off his new boss by the way he reacted to a business call. (not smart in any career).
I have been of the opinion that there was a plan from day one, and we will see it in time. After this draft, free-agent period and training camp, I am glad to see that alot more people are seeing that Mr. Bowlen did not hire a lunatic coach, and are becoming alot more optimistic and supportive of our team!

Anyhow, rec’d, great read first thing in the morning, Thanks!

great insight into the minds of one of my favorite fans.

i dont always agree with you, but am certain you have reasons for every doubt and hope you have for this team.

recd for sure.

well played McG

But regarding his first draft, and how it seemed to lack direction, I do have to step back and remember that he hadn’t had much time to familiarize himself with the team at all. He said a couple times this year that it was a completely different experience with an entire year of scouting, planning, and whatnot under HIS organization’s belt.

Of course, at the end of the day, he could have a million busts and if his teams win, I’ll be a fan. If we go 8-8 for too many more years, no matter how much I enjoy the theory behind his methods, it’ll be time for a hard look at things.

McGeorge, I was reading this last night and now it is up to 220+ posts.

Very well thought out, I wish I was able to express my thoughts like this.

Thank you for keeping MHR real!

great off mind ave at best on d got great value on cutler i think couild got a littie more for marsh i fell we are sliping ever so sighty i am worred about our run D and O-L if we win under 8 games i think he is on the Hot seat

While we will never agree on everything Broncos, the delivery of your opinions has improved greatly in the last year. Enjoyed your post and rec’d.

I’m glad you took the time to look at both side of the coins. You’ll find watching football is much more exciting with a positive attitude :)

Some days we agree; some days we don’t. Today, I think we fist-bump. Fantastic post explaing your thought process.

The only area where I think we’re apart is that I’ll never under any circumstances believe that McDaniels ever considered Cassel for Cutler. It just doesn’t pass the common sense test. Cassel and a bag of skittles got traded for a 2nd round pick. Cutler got traded for two 1’s and a 3. Cassel was set to make like $16M. Cutler was set to make relative pennies.

I always thought that McDaniels’ naivety was a major factor in the issue blowing up and out of control. I think he listened too long and didn’t do enough early-on to deal with the aftermath. But Cutler was worse, IMO. Both men, I believe handled the situation poorly at the beginning. But I formally turned against Cutler and toward McDaniels the day Josh held up his jersey. It was a step, a show of good-faith. It showed a willingness to move forward. As a 32 year old rookie head coach, it was about the furthest he could publically go, IMO. Any further and he would risk losing respect of the team.

Cutler took the other fork in the road. And so I blame him in the end, not Coach McDaniels.

Anyway, blah, blah, blah. I really enjoyed your post and pretty much agree with all else in it. I think you especially made a solid point about how we can’t give Coach a pass for not being prepared yet also give him a pass for being so aggressive on picking Phonz. If you’re not fully confident, you probably shouldn’t spend next year’s picks in the current draft. The counter-argument is generally that Coach was likely confident in less players so those were the one’s he agressively went after. But to me, that makes more sense only if those players become successes. Aggressively trading for Richard Quinn and Phonz doesn’t support that argument.

Thanks again for the post!

It never bothered me for a number of reasons. Not in any particular order here is some of the things I thought about:

We had a need for a developmental player at that position due to the combination of great skills but aging secondary.

All draft picks are gambles and low first and high second round picks are similar talent pools.

No guarantees of that the next years draft position was going to be. Originally some were upset as they assumed 2009 season was going to be worse and they assumed a 2010 pick was going to be very high. Not quite how it turned out.

There is a consideration of cost premium for additional 1st round vs 2nd round picks. Same body different round different costs. Other teams and the scouting and media sites had him as a worthwhile player, even if he was a reach in the position we picked him, or if we gave up the potential of the future 1st round pick. But its hard to pay fro many 1st round picks in any year and we still turned out alright in the 2010 draft it seems.

There is a consideration of the value of a developmental year in a new system for a new player . If it takes 3 years to get performance at potential levels seen, then its worth some value to get that going as soon as possible. If Fonz there kicks in this year or next that rookie subpar learning deer in the headlights bad year is behind us.

All draft picks are gambles and his college performance despite his measurables showed some potential. Records are indicators of at least some potential, and all draft picks have some uncertainty.

Having a player develop under the supervision of Champ and the rest of the older studs in the secondary gives a better chance of success in the future as he gets seasoned. It not like the collapse of our defense line late last year made things any easier last year either, but all of last year adds to experiences that can increase performance this year and beyond.

If he was a late round pick, the controversy would be less, as many people have an issue with his draft spot. But hes still hanging around on the team, which is better than many other draft picks in the NFL.

A lot of the controversy was in the trading of the picks and how it would effect the 2010 draft. Well the 2010 draft already seems like it went pretty well as does the contract money side and paying 2nd round money last year may have helped things in some manner or at least does not seem to have crippled this years draft in any real way.

Finally, its still too early to tell on his performance. Obviously he needs to step up his performance this year or next after making the team, but its not like he was forced to take a starting role last year and the secondary was not the biggest issue we had last year. He’s also not injury bug bitten as far as I can see and he may reach a point where he gets an aha moment. He was a rookie last year and in the NFL its quite rare for most rookies to contribute.

Like I said above, its not like there were not some possible logical reasons for the selection at the time. They may or not pan out but their are hardly ever guarantees in the NFL draft and at least he;s still on the team and his physical tools are still there and can continue to be developed and better utilized in some additional ways. You and I might not have agreed with the pick, but with the time McDaniels had to prepare for the draft with a new team, it was not a totally insane decision to take him where they did.