2008 V. 2010

by MD413 on Sep 5, 2010 2:25 PM MDT

A couple of different threads have raised the discussion about whether the team is better now or there's really been no improvement. The best way is to simply look at the rosters. Let's look:

To be fair, this is NOT about whether we'd have been better keeping Shanny or hiring a different HC instead of McD. That is not what the discussion has been. It's simply about which team is better, top to bottom, the 2010 or the 2008 version?

To analyze, I'll try to break it into 4 groups: Players Still on The Team, Players Who'd Make the 2010 Team, Players Who Might Make the Team and Players Who Wouldn't. The analysis is going to attempt to be McD-neutral, in the sense, it's whether or not the players would make the team under a hypothetical coach, not McD. Also, as much as possible, I'm looking at the 2008 version of the player.

Players Still On The Team (13):

DJ Williams

Marcus Thomas

Players Who'd Have Made the 2010 Roster (7):

Jay Cutler

Peyton Hillis (He's a better RB than either Ball or Hall)

Michael Pittman (If White is healthy, he probably doesn't)

Brandon Stokely (A healthy 2008 version probably makes the team.)

Brandon Marshall

Tony Scheffler

Kenny Peterson (I think he's better than Smith)

Players Who Might Make the Roster (4):

Ryan Torain

Ben Hamilton

Casey Wiegmann

Tom Nalen (Probably, if healthy, belongs in the category above)

Players Who Wouldn't Make the Roster (33):

Brett Kern

Patrick Ramsey

Edell Shepherd (I'm listing guys who spent the season on IR as well for consistency)

Dre' Bly

Calvin Lowry (God, he was bad.)

Anthony Aldridge

Niko Koutivides

Nate Webster (Might be my least favorite Bronco in recent memory)

Dewayne Robertson

20 players would be on the team. 4 might. 33 wouldn't. Now there are probably a handful of guys who there'll be some debate (Boss Bailey?) but I think I've been pretty neutral. Honestly, go down the list of 33 and find the guys still in the NFL (or even more fairly, look to see who played in 2009). Not more than a handful.

So, in my opinion, those who remain convinced we're not better now have forgotten just how bad the 2008 roster ended up being. Half of the 2008 roster would be cut. Said a different way, if the 2008 roster had their choices to swap players, over HALF of the team in 2008 would be replaced by the current roster.

That's how bad and thin the 2008 roster was. Because, yes, to be fair, the 2010 roster has holes but even the holes and poor players are largely an improvement.

Our TE and RB depth would be better with Hillis, Pittman, and Scheffler still on the roster. But there's nowhere else (you can argue that the top of the depth chart would be better at QB w/ Cutler over Orton and at WR with Marshall over Gaffney but there's far better depth at both positions now) where the depth in 2008 compares.

Just look at the back-ups (I'm doing my best to remember the 2008 rosters depth chart and where the player is still on the team, I'm not listing him):

QB - Tebow/Quinn v. Ramsey (More of an indictment of Ramsey than anything else)

WR- Decker/Bey Bey/Willis v. Darrell Jackson and Keary Colbert

OL -Olsen/Batiste/Daniels v. Pears/Polumbus/Gandy. The 2008 players are arguably no better (and I think it's fair to argue they're worse) than But this is the only position where I think it's really even debatable.

DL - Fields/Smith v. Nic Clemons/Josh Shaw

LB - Atkins/Mays/Hunter v. Winborn/Green/Niko

DB - Cox/Squid/McBath/Bruton/Vaughn v. Abdullah/Williams/Lowry/Paymah

Again, in a lot of these cases, it's not that I'm sold on the 2010 players. It's more about simply how bad the 2008 roster was. Not to mention, look again at the two groups and decide which players you trust on special teams. Is there a ST player from 2008 who'd play on ST in 2010?

So does this mean there isn't room for criticism of the 2010 roster? Of course not.

But the 2008 roster was worse.

By a lot.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

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Comments

Yuck!

reading that 2008 roster makes me want to take a shower.

by Horse Head Bookends on Sep 5, 2010 2:58 PM MDT reply actions

Haha, I was watching a highlight video of the Jags game from 08 earlier (bad memories), McCree and Manuel were really the Laurel and Hardy duo of NFL safeties.

by Muse_Cubed on Sep 5, 2010 3:39 PM MDT up reply actions

younger as well

While I am not going back and checking birth dates I also think this roster is not only stronger but younger with a bigger upside. Good post I hope people read it, Also you might email it to Mike Kizla since he seems to be on a mission to destroy McD.

oldcoachB

by oldcoachB on Sep 5, 2010 3:11 PM MDT reply actions

2008 was horrible.

5-6 of the “would make it” and “might make it” are retired or once again on IR, so you really can’t count them.
Of those that would have made the team, only 4-5 are currently NOT on this team.
That means that in all reality, McDaniels’ “getting rid of Shanahan guys” really only consisted of 4-5 players getting the axe. 4-5 players!!! That is nothing! Take into account that Cutler is regressing, and Peterson still might not even have a team, that leaves 2-3 players that McDaniels got rid of that are any better than their direct replacements.
Another argument is that our WRs overall are much better without Marshall than with him. That leaves 1-2 total players that McDaniels got rid of that would have contributed.
So really, McDaniels didn’t “get rid of Shanahan’s guys” so much as he just got rid of players who probably wouldn’t even make the Rams’ squad.
The 2 players I’d love to have back are Scheffler and Hillis. Cutler can stay in Chicago and lead them to 4th in the league by being a turnover machine and perennial crybaby. Marshall can get arrested, injured, and stone hand passes in Miami. I won’t miss either (well, I miss Marshall, but I like the receivers that we drafted more than him). Peterson was good, but he wasn’t good enough to make this 2010 team, so that’s gotta say something.
Hillis is/was/will be a stud, and especially seeing we once again have injury prone RB’s, his healthy body would be a welcome sight. Scheffler always seemed to be a good guy, whether or not he honestly meant what he said last year about just wanting the season to end. He is a talent, even though injury prone, that we just don’t have on our team.
You can justify getting rid of all the players we got rid of, because we have at a minimum of equal talent/players in every area but one…. The TE position.

2/3 of the world is covered in water
the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey

by Big_Pete1999 on Sep 5, 2010 3:14 PM MDT reply actions

Scheffler can go

I lost all interest when he packed it in before the end of the season. We were 8-7 and if we won the last game, we would have gone to the playoffs. Instead of doing his part to help achieve that goal he was bemoaning that he wished the season would end early.

At that point he was dead to me. We don’t need that.

"It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..."

by Alan_Smithee on Sep 5, 2010 4:51 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs

Alan - I agree with you on the Scheffler topic!!!

However, even if we had of won that last game, we still wouldn’t have made the playoffs, Sorry!!

The only player I think McD shouldn’t have jettisoned is Hillis. I still can’t figure out why he didn’t give that kid the “time of day.” I guess he just wasn’t his type, LOL!!!!

Well, when I think about it, Hillis sucked @ being a LEAD BLOCKER and in all aspects of SPECIAL TEAMS – watching him do these things was not enjoyable, point-blank period!!!!
He is a good power back and receiver out the backfield, but ultimately his lack of versatility made him expendable!!!

by numeraluno on Sep 5, 2010 6:45 PM MDT up reply actions

My theory..

With absolutely no basis in fact:

I believe there was a behind-the-scenes reason for his departure and we will probably never hear the full reason.

I do believe he’s in a better place to succeed and i suspect you are at least partially right in regards to his versatility.

by Alan_Smithee on Sep 5, 2010 7:32 PM MDT up reply actions

I meant 4th in the Division, not league

2/3 of the world is covered in water
the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey

by Big_Pete1999 on Sep 5, 2010 3:17 PM MDT reply actions

Amazing to see the differences...

I’m curious as to how much better the roster really is though… I watched a documentary on how our minds work as far as putting value on things. It was on the problem of bubbles in the stock market, and how we always think things in our possession are worth more than if someone else has them. For instance they asked people to say how much a thermos was worth early in the day and then gave one to them and asked them how much they’d sell it for. The answer was always around $5 more. I’m not saying I disagree that I would take our 2010 roster over 2008 any day of the week, I just wonder how far apart they really are since we probably add more value to the players we have and under value the players we’ve cut.

None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal

by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Sep 5, 2010 3:18 PM MDT reply actions

Good point, it is hard to evaluate 2008 without hindsight. And 2010, we can only project.

But of the 33 players MD413 says wouldn’t make the 2010 roster, I only counted 4 of them that are still in the league (5 if Bly gets picked up). That was what was so telling about the 08 roster. So many guys McDaniels got rid of are out of the league.

by McJay on Sep 5, 2010 4:43 PM MDT up reply actions

This

Heck, one just didn’t make the cut in the UFL.

by Alan_Smithee on Sep 5, 2010 4:52 PM MDT up reply actions

great response!

If we’re better, the record will show it. Are any of us capable of properly evaluating our talent? Isn’t Green a good example? I didn’t see anyone predict he would be cut. How about Baker? I read many predictions for his success on this site. How about the Simms supporters?

by konaphilip on Sep 5, 2010 4:00 PM MDT reply actions

I predicted Green cut

"Kool-Aid Kool Aid, Tastes Great, We Want Kool Aid, Can't Wait"

by littletinybroncos on Sep 6, 2010 4:36 AM MDT up reply actions

Nice post, MD413

When I look at the players from 2008, I think that Shanny must have done a pretty good job of coaching to coax 8 wins out of that group.

You forgot to include Marcus Thomas and Mario Haggan in those players remaining from 2008. Total of 15.

Kind of wish Erik Pears would have been a Bronco in 2009 rather than a fader. IMO, he would have handled the RT position better than Polumbus.

by Blackknigh on Sep 5, 2010 4:09 PM MDT reply actions

Thanks

I did have Marcus Thomas listed (between Clady/Graham) but don’t know why I spaced on Haggan. Thanks for the addition!

And I agree re: Pears/Polumbus. I do think it’s fair to say he’d have done no worse.

by MD413 on Sep 5, 2010 4:50 PM MDT up reply actions

Agreed on Shanny...

I wasn’t for getting rid of him, but I didn’t lose any sleep over it, either. As far as coaching goes, I think he’s the best coach in the league, and I don’t think Cowher or Gruden, or anyone else who isn’t currently coaching is better than him , either. His downfall was as a GM. Our roster was so bad (as is shown in this post) that it really was a miracle he coaxed 8 wins out of that team. I have all the respect in the world for Shanny, and will pull for the Skins whenever they don’t plays us. (The fact I hate the Cowboys, Eagles, and Giants makes it pretty easy, actually)

by Kgrone on Sep 5, 2010 8:30 PM MDT up reply actions

2010 is way better...how Cutler had made us all delusional. We were lucky to finish .500 in 2008

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The guy formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Sep 5, 2010 4:20 PM MDT reply actions

We were a 7-9 team in 2008 that got an amazingly bad call to win one of those games.

We were a 7-9 team in 2009 that got an amazing lucky bounce vs Cincy.

The 2009 team was a better team, but they were both among the bottom half of the league in their respective seasons.

Denver: 32-32 until we're not.

by McGeorge on Sep 5, 2010 7:53 PM MDT up reply actions

There is no good reason Marquand Manuel should not be your least favorite Bronco in recent memory.

Webster could celebrate tackles after a four yard game on 3rd and two like no one else.

Denver: 32-32 until we're not.

by McGeorge on Sep 5, 2010 7:51 PM MDT reply actions

I think Lowry might've been worse than Manuel.....

Webster might get the nod here, as well. But now I’m splitting hairs.

by Kgrone on Sep 5, 2010 8:31 PM MDT up reply actions

Actually...

your second paragraph is itself a good reason. Manuel had the decency not to celebrate the few times he made a play. Manuel may have been worse but, man, I hated Nate Webster.

Not to mention, on the few tackles Manuel did make, he somehow managed to keep his helmet on. Somehow, Nate Webster never mastered that art.

by MD413 on Sep 5, 2010 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions