The Cutler Trade
In another fanpost, I decided to go through the Cutler math again. I realized while writing it what an amazing deal we got out of the whole thing, and I remembered that sometimes people talk about how much of an idiot McDaniels is with his draft and trade decisions. Next time someone does that to you, pull this out.
It starts with Keary Colbert. We traded Keary Colbert to Seattle for a 2009 fifth rounder.
We then traded that fifth rounder and Cutler to Chicago for Kyle Orton, two first-round picks (2009 #18 and 2010 #11), and a third-rounder (2009 #84).
Our 2009 #18 became Robert Ayers.
Our 2009 #84 got packaged with our other third-rounder, and became either Richard Quinn or Seth Olsen. Let's just say that either one would be described as a bust.
Our 2010 pick got complicated.
- We traded #11 for #13 and #113
- We traded #13 for #24, #70, and #87
- We traded #24 and #113 for #22, which became Demaryius Thomas
- #87 became Eric Decker.
- This leaves #70.
- We traded Brandon Marshall for #43 and a 2011 2nd rounder.
- We traded #43, #70, and our normal 4th-rounder (#114) for #25.
- #25 became Tim Tebow.
We gave up:
- Keary Colbert
- Jay Cutler
- Brandon Marshall
- Our 2010 4th rounder (#114)
- Kyle Orton
- Tim Tebow
- Demaryius Thomas
- Eric Decker
- Robert Ayers
- Richard Quinn or Seth Olsen
- A 2011 2nd rounder
McD is clearly an idiot, no?
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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Hmmm...
Erick Decker, pick #87, jersey number 87. Destiny to replace Eddie Mac???
Mile High will NEVER Die!!!
by rynoz71 on Sep 9, 2010 8:01 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Damn I hate McDaniels....cant believe he got rid of Scheffler!!!!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
ok ok
Basically, we gave up Scheffler and #220, and in return we got Perrish Cox. That’s it, simple.
And...
Didn’t we also get Brady Quinn in that deal? Teams should stop trading with McD, they’re getting fleeced!
That was with the Browns...
For Peyton Hillis and a 7th Round pick
-TSG
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What we got for Scheffler
You may not regret that trade in the end — Perrish Cox (CB).
5th – 6 (137) Broncos (From Browns through Eagles) Cox, Perrish CB 5’11" 195 Oklahoma State 6.9
Broncos acquire 5th-round pick from Eagles for TE Tony Scheffler and 7th-round pick (to Lions)
Lions acquire TE Tony Scheffler and 7th-round pick from Broncos for OLB Ernie Sims (to Eagles)
"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - quoted in The Paranoid Style in American Politics
Not enough people mention that when they're blasting the Broncos for trading Scheffler .
"All the world's indeed a stage, and we are merely players."
"God I'm excited for those two to fail miserably." - SBNation writer Andrew Sharp on Josh McDaniels and Tim Tebow.
Quitter's People United Member #18
by Tempestuous Binary on Sep 10, 2010 5:25 AM MDT up reply actions
That's becaues too many in the media circles are too lazy to look up the information.
"I cannot give you a formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: Try to please everybody."
what we need out of a TE
It’s a bit of a digression but…………..
The topic of the McDaniels offense is sorely in need of discussion. I don’t claim to have been particularly enlightened but I’ve gradually figured out why — for instance — we need TEs who can block. And there are other positional requirements that have changed, too.
We’ve run into this attitude repeatedly, as fans bemoan the loss of a player whose skill set was clearly wrong for what we now do. And the fact that he was wrong for our system seems to be lost on the fans who only understand the ‘but he was good’ part of the formula. Yes, but good at what?
I liked Dan Gronkowski coming out of college and thought he went later than he deserved. I had expected we’d draft a TE this year, and I’d also given some thought to the type of TE we’d use. It’s a type of TE who is very proficient at blocking and decidedly blue-collar in his pass receiving skills. They’re not glamorous players and they’re not the type of player who makes frequent crowd-pleasing catches but they’re very useful in the running and passing game — albeit not usually as the receiver. They also help a lot in the red zone offense. Repeat that sentence as many times as you need.
The fact is that we obtained the type of player we needed and at a position of need, and these areas were unfilled coming out of the draft. This is true for both Gronkowski and Mays, and even Vickerson, but I don’t expect that there will be much credit given to McX. For many fans, there’s an overemphasis on value and a near obliviousness to scheme and fit. neither ILB nor blocking TE are going to be considered particularly valuable but their contribution can be invaluable, as well as — usually — unnoticed. Fantasy fans won’t be pleased.
"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - quoted in The Paranoid Style in American Politics
by Colinski on Sep 10, 2010 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions 8 recs
Excellent analysis....my god, McD and Xanders can certainly manipulate for the betterment of the Broncos!!!
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The guy formerly known as ZAPPA
Like they did in the 2009 Phonz deal?
McD sold high on Cutler. It wasn’t hard to get a lot of value for a young QB many in the NFL considered a franchise QB. It was hard to make up his mind to deal Jay. That took stones.
Spending those 3 picks on Ayers, Rich Quinn and Thomas???? A little too early call any of those home runs right now.
So far, Orton is the best player in the deal, followed by Knox.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Thanks for the realistic viewpoint, McG
I, too, think we’re getting a bit carried away calling this a home run, but we did get some football players with upside! Hopefully they’ll all turn into serviceable pros with a star or two in the mix.
It takes neither courage nor intelligence to cheer for a team only when that team wins. The true test of a fan's mettle is the same as it is for a player: Were you there when you were needed?
aka Solace
Home run!!!
this is more like a potential grand. The pitch had been thrown – and – it looks like this one may be headed over the wall!!
I’ll keep you up to posted!!!
Agree very much
Other than Orton we gave up 2 Pro Bowlers for Potential.
In the NFL potential doesn’t win you ball games.
It may in the future…but until that potential pans out your still out on a limb to see if you got the better end of the deal. Obviously we got a surplus of players out of the deal with a ton of potential.
( I realize the circumstances surrounding Cutler and Marshall and their trades but just looking at it as simly trading players)
My heart is Black and it makes Rocky Mountain purple blood and I piss the Orange and Blue Denver Bronco excellence.
by waterboy31321 on Sep 10, 2010 9:13 AM MDT up reply actions
Dont call them Pro Bowlers. The Pro Bowl is a popularity contest and means naught in the scheme of things. If they were All Pro, that would be different.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
by boydy2669 on Sep 10, 2010 9:19 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah but Bus Cook blamed McDaniels and Bowlen for the pick ;-)
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Sep 10, 2010 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions
Not really Clady was much better in 2008 when he didn’t go to the Pro Bowl or win All Pro.
In 2009, he won both awards, but he didn’t deserve either nearly enough as he did the year before.
All Pro, just like Pro Bowl, is a flawed system.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Yes that is very true as there is an element of
popularity in even in the AllPro selection. Although, it is more a popularity of peers vs fans.
"I cannot give you a formula for success, but I can give you the formula for failure: Try to please everybody."
Marshal was
the BEAST when he was here, u cant base his production. you can bash his personality but to say he is not a top 5 wr is crazy
free special ed.
David Garrard was one just last year.....
We have two Qb’s on the roster I’d keep over him right now.
Jay Cutler
Is not, I repeat – IS NOT a All-Pro player. The year he was elected as a Pro Bowler was a farce. Though I hate to admit it, P. Rivers was shafted.
The jury is out till about the end of this season
"Kool-Aid Kool Aid, Tastes Great, We Want Kool Aid, Can't Wait"
by littletinybroncos on Sep 10, 2010 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions
Exactly
It is an argument ad hominem to dismiss McD’s strategy because there hasn’t been time for players to develop.
By your logic, McG, no trade for a draft pick is ever any good because the drafted player will not be a proven commodity when they come on board. I call that hogwash.
I simply pointed out the truth, even if it hurts you to hear it. The best performing draft pick in the Cutler deal has been Johny Knox. By a landslide might I add.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
hehe
McGeorge, it’s kind of an irrelevant point. Most of the Broncos draft picks from the trade haven’t even had the opportunity to play in a regular season game, and one of them hasn’t been picked yet. Meanwhile, Chicago has exhausted all their picks.
I think the only reason that particular truth might hurt is because it’s painfully obtuse. You can’t seriously believe that Knox by himself will outperform all our draft picks put together when all is said and done.
The Bears
were so hungry for WR help that they sacrificed having the best pure return man in football to try to fill the void. Consequently Knox got tons of playing time his rookie year… and got results.
Hopefully Thomas (and Decker, too) is prepared to do the same to fill our void this year. At least they got a decent QB throwing to them. :-)
That is a lie.
We traded Cutler and a 2009 5th rounder for a 2009 1st and 2009 3rd round pick and a 2010 1st round pick (plus Orton).
Only one draft pick from that deal has not had a chance to play, the 2010 1st rounder.
Knox clearly outplayed Ayers and Rich Quinn in 2009. That is not debatable.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
I misread
You’re too harsh for your own good sometimes, though. A lie, really? At any rate, the 2010 1st rounder is more than just Thomas (or Tebow) – you’re talking about #11 versus #22. It is impossible to judge without pulling in the Marshall trade and the 4th rounder. At any rate, the point is that Chicago has exhausted all their picks as of last year, while we’ve got additional resources that will be part of the equation, that haven’t even had a chance yet.
by tunesmith on Sep 10, 2010 3:46 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I have no idea tune.
I have hopes for Ayers and Thomas. I don’t have much hope for Rich Quinn. Ayers was mildly disappointing last season. Thomas missing TC won’t do him any favors for 2010.
Orton has been much better than a throw in. That I believe with certainty.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
I'm surprised you're down on Quinn
He hasn’t flourished as much as a receiver as we might have expected (following the he-wasn’t-thrown-to-much-but-has-receiving-skills argument) but my understanding was that he was drafted primarily for his blocking prowess and was demonstrating it before he got injured. Unless injuries turn out to be a constant, as with Ryan Torain, that’s no reason to dismiss him as not living up to his potential. And yes, Orton the “throw in” has so far been the star of the deal. He outplayed Cutler last year and I suspect will outplay him by an even larger margin this year. Chicago ’s fans are beginning to realize they got fleeced and are not happy about it.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
Quinn didn’t play (block) particularly well last season when I watched him on O. Then he didn’t play much at all.
And even if his primary role is to block, he’ll still need to make catches from time to time just to keep a D honest. Hearing that he was Mr. drops in practice is not impressive in the least.
He’ll need to step it up in 2010 or he’ll enter bust territory.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
That's true of every second-year player
Rookies rarely help their team much. If they show little or no improvement and are unable to help their team their second year, they’re approaching bust territory. But the beginning of the second season is a little early to start thinking about applying that label.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I think one of the evolutions going on in the NFL right now is the importance of blocking TEs. Teams are going to 3-4 fronts to push their speed rushers out more and get more mismatches for them (this is why Dumerville did well last year). The counter is for the offense to widen the edge/line with a blocking TE. I think that is the theory at least on TEs in McDaniels offense. And note that 2 of the other three teams in our division are 3-4.
HEY
at this point in time it doesn’t matter because its quite apparent that KYLE ORTON has out performed JAY CULTER, point-blank-period……. Everything else is ICING ON THE CAKE!!!
Cutler vs.Orton = push – Orton
Ayers, Quinn, Thomas = ICING ON THE CAKE BABY!!!
Its clear to see who got the better out of the trade – HANDS DOWN.
Knox alone has been much better than Ayers or Quinn or Thomas
Knox > any of those three.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Unfortunately for Denver, this to is a hands down deal where round 1 goes to Chicago.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
What? Are you kidding? No way it goes to Chicago.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
All I’m saying is that for the 2009 season (round 1) Chicago got much better impact from their draft pick (Knox) than we did from Ayers and Quinn.
That is not debatable, it’s a fact. That is all I was saying with round 1. Round 1 of the rookie’s 1st season went to Chicago.
I said above that Denver is looking better in the overall trade thanks to Orton’s solid play and Cutler’s INTs.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Chicago got much better impact from their draft pick (Knox) than we did from Ayers and Quinn.
That is not debatable, it’s a fact.
^This is my problem with McGeorge(’s)..
This is entirely debatable. It is entirely subjective. And it’s like, YOUR OPINION, man.
railroading an opinion ≠ fact
All we're trying to do is read a MF blog here!
by BringBackOrange on Sep 10, 2010 4:26 PM MDT up reply actions
yeah, and...
Knox is also kind of irrelevant. We traded a fifth. They picked Knox. Good on Chicago, but we didn’t trade Knox.
Knox had 45 catches, 5 TDs and 527 yards last season. That is not an opinion, those are his stats.
He clearly had a better season than Royal and much much much better than anything Quinn or Ayers (combined) did in 2009.
Yours is my problem with stupid comments.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Apples and Oranges
His stats are fact, and they are not debatable. That is correct. However, your opinion that Knox is “better,” and therefore Chi got better value from the draft/trade is still subjective. I understand by “better” you’re saying Knox produced more than our draft picks last year, but I could just as easily debate that comparison is irrelevant.
For instance.. Look at the trade another way:
-We trade Cutler for two 1’s and a 3
-We trade a 5(Knox) for Orton(the throw in)
Now who was/is “better,” Knox or Orton?
Also as far as the “stupid” comment.. that’s just silly and unnecessary. There is no need to throw up defense shields because someone questions your opinion. We’re all Bronco fans.
All we're trying to do is read a MF blog here!
by BringBackOrange on Sep 11, 2010 8:17 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
My voice is clear here. My opinion is not that Knox is better, it’s that he WAS better in 2009. He WAS a lot better in 2009 than Ayers or Quinn.
In 2009, Chicago got better production from the draft picks involved in the Cutler deal than Denver did. That is not debatable. Nor is it an opinion.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
No, its an opinion. Ayers played well, Knox played well. Quinn played OK (he got the block on Croyle's pass on trick play).
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
I agree that we should bring back Orange. Are current blue uniform is one of the worst in the NFL. We need to go orange.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
I'm kinda partial to the uniforms in which we won the Super Bowls.
But I do like the orange. I don’t care for the white ones, myself. They are too Patriot-ish.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
agreed
But lets be fair, we can’t measure Knox fairly, he didn’t have Orton throwing to him. He had share catches with the other teams D Backs that to Jay’s penchant for the INT
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Sep 10, 2010 7:26 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Is there a way to determine that McG
If so, How?
The only way I can conceed is through playing time and contribution to team victory.
It is very easy to determine that Knox was better than both Ayers and Quinn in 2009.
Knox had an impactful rookie season and our two guys did not.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Comparing quality of picks to quantity becomes difficult.
How do you say Knox and Cutler have more of a positive impact on their team than ALL of the picks we’ve gotten? You can say Knox is better than Ayers, or that Knox is better than Olsen. Can you say he is better than both together? Perhaps. I’ll buy the argument that 7 bad players are way worse than 1 good player. BUT, taking the lump sum of guys and their impacts thus far vs. what Chicago got in return, I question how Chicago won. More to the point, I don’t CARE who won. We got some good guys off a business decision. Cutler wasn’t going to play for us anyway. It wasn’t a negotiation. We cut our losses and got the best we could get for the guy. For the fact that we were out Cutler either way, this haul is a hell of a lot better than nothing.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Thomas
irrelevant – Thomas hasn’t had a chance to play in a game yet, and has a year less experience.
Ayers and Quinn, I’ll grant you – they were drafted at the same time.
MCGeorge, lay off the crack my friend
I don’t know what you saw from Knox last year to make you so high on him. The kid has talent and some potential, but you can’t say Chicago has won anything at this point in time. Orton is better than Cutler right now, Ayers is gonna have a big season and Thomas is gonna be the next Calvin Johnson. FACT!
Stiff 4 Life
by GoldenNugget on Sep 10, 2010 4:49 PM MDT up reply actions
actually
don’t forget Decker, btw – both Thomas and Decker were entirely from this year’s Cutler #1. (And a #40 besides, which is part of Tebow.)
???
I guess I disagree. We got three picks from the Cutler deal, not four. McD made so many trades, he made it hard to track the details.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
trade
It’s just from the chart above. #11 ultimately became 24, 70, 87, and 113, before the Marshall trade came into the mix. 24 and 113 became 22 (Demaryius). 87 became Decker.
70 (not #40, sorry) was left over and got mixed with the Marshall stuff.
The FO is pretty sharp
If we don’t turn into one of the NFL’s top 10 teams in the next year or so, it won’t be because of the personnel moves
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
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-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
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How do you figure R Quinn is a bust?
He is a blocking TE. He does what they pay him to do!
Kansas Bob
by kansas bob on Sep 9, 2010 8:37 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
ah
I don’t think he’s a bust really. But I figured we’d just offer a gimme to the haters. :) The point is, even if he’s a bust, it’s a hell of a deal.
Agree
They’ll come up with stuff all on their own. Give ’em nuttin, nuttin! ;)
by AllBroncsallday on Sep 10, 2010 2:33 PM MDT up reply actions
If he is only a blocking tight end
Drafting him that high makes him a bit of a bust. If you draft him that high, you assume he’s going to be able to at least catch a few balls…
to be fair...
that is YOUR assumption. Head coaches obviously don’t think like the lay-fan (layman?) If McD REALLY wanted a blocking TE….then he certainly got what he was looking for. If he was looking for a versatile TE then Quinn is a bust.
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
I wouldn't call him a bust considering he blocks like a left or right tackle.
Consider him an extension of Clady and Harris and he is a steal at where he was drafted. Regardless of catching 1 ball or 100 balls.
What a drag it is getting old. - Mick
If Quinn really blocks like an OT
Then it seems to me he would’ve been tried as a backup there in the preseason. Lord knows McDaniels tried anybody with a pulse at tackle this August.
He may be a good blocker for a Tight End, but he’s no tackle. Considering that fact, if he’s no threat to catch passes, he’s got limited value, and is a (mild) bust as a 2nd rounder.
by sports_monkey on Sep 10, 2010 9:09 AM MDT up reply actions
Spot on Bob
If a guy is drafted — regardless of where in the draft he’s taken — and comes in and does what the coaches ask him to do well enough to be made part of the team, and to be kept as part of the team, then I fail to see how he can be labeled a bust.
A bust is a guy who was drafted — again regardless of draft position — comes in and never is able to successfully do what the coaches ask him to do and is eventually traded or cut.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Sep 10, 2010 8:21 AM MDT up reply actions
aka
Maurice Clarett.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
by KaptainKirk on Sep 10, 2010 10:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Good point, Kirk
I forgot to include “And builds an inside knowledge of the justice system”
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Sep 10, 2010 11:04 AM MDT up reply actions
Don't think I'd want to play poker with McX
Nice analysis!
Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he'll eat for a lifetime.
"Losing stinks" - Josh McDaniels
or Pokemon
or trade baseball cards.
Some people got nothing to be angry about so they're angry about nothing.
or buy a used car from
"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."
- Thomas Alva Edison
"Success is not a place at which one arrives, but rather... the spirit with which one undertakes and continues the journey."
- Alex Noble
Excellent tunesmith Excellent REC'D
It’s kind of like WOW how did we pull that off. Maybe it was McD’s Math degree.
On the Bob and Tom show today they had a football analyst that said Jay Cutler is a terrible football player...
I almost spit up my coffee on the dash!
8-8 in 2008
8-8 in 2009
My guess: 8-8ish in 2010.
Winning and losing is determined by success on the field, not in fantasty football stats or the like.
It is funny that Orton and Johny Knox have been the two best players from the Cutler deal.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Yes the players hauled in need to translate on the field but
Hard to think that if even half of these picks work out over the next three years it becomes a severely lopsided haul for the broncos.
by BroncoInExile on Sep 9, 2010 9:24 PM MDT up reply actions
The only pick that has turned out so far is Johny Knox, not Ayers or Quinn based on 2009.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
players
Are you optimistic about Ayers/Demaryius/Decker in 2010? Or Tebow beyond, or next year’s 2nd? I’m starting to think we’ve seen all we’ll see out of Cutler, the new Jeff George.
Some yes, some not as much.
I’m most optimistic about Tebow, then Decker.
I’ve never seen Thomas play NFL ball and he is hurt a lot so that is a bad sign.
Ayers has a lot to prove in 2010. He looked pretty good in preseason after looking pretty crappy in 2009.
I think Knox is going to be a good NFL player for a long time.
I think Marshall will be great in Miami.
Not sure about Cutler. He looked like crap in preaseason after finishing 2009 very strong. His O-line is garbage and so is the HC in Chicago. Jay’s preseason play was also garbage and so was his play many times in 2009.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
even McGeorge has to admit
that Orton is playing better that Cutler now.
Although that is partially the Bears fault as he has to run around scared behind that line. Although, living in Chicago, Orton performed better behind a shaky line than Cutler has. I think Orton is the smarter QB, while Cutler has more tools. Smarts usually > tools.
Their careers have yet to be played out, and until they do it’s kind of hard to say who the best QB is. We can say all we want “at this point in time in their careers, Orton is doing better” – but the debate of who is the best QB will be determined when they both call it quits in the NFL.
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
Aww comeon
McGeorge doesn’t have to admit anything! He sees all and knows all. Let him prognosticate with all his heavenly wisdom, and lay down his knowledge for us peons to bask in!
lol
McGeorge is referenced a lot due to his outlook on issues. He doesn’t sip the Koolaid and looks at the weaknesses, but doesn’t ignore the highlights, he sees those two. He just talks about the weaknesses that he sees more.
Thats fine, I enjoy his posts. I don’t agree with every single one, nor does he agree with all of mine, even though I am sure he sees my points as I do his, not all of them, but some :)
People tend to speak louder than others when they do not have the popular answer, which is fine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, except for Charger and Raider fans. They can have an opinion when we Broncos fans give them one to have! lol
McGeorge contrary to what you may believe, doesn’t believe he is smarter or better than us. He just voices the opinion that he has.
McGeorge is as ignorant as we all are with many issues, however he is smarter than the average viewer.
And you are right, McGeorge, or anyone doesn’t have to admit anything.
I actually regret using his name, as it seems a lot of people use his name and NegativeNelly’s name and throw it around like they’re trolls, which they are not. I appreciate their comments as much as I appreciate the Kool-Aiders like our very own Tim.
The contrary opinions are just as important as the popular ones, if we didn’t listen to another point of view, or listen to more concise logic and reasoning, we would be thinking, like my friend Kevin (who roots for the Browns), that we would be winning the Super Bowl every year!
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
by Broncs55 on Sep 10, 2010 11:12 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
When the Cutler trade went down
to hear the Bears faithful (including local sportsdrones) tell it he was going to make their receivers and everybody else, including the line (because of his “mobility”), better. Not hearing that argument too much nowadays. One of my co-workers, with a smug look on his face that he couldn’t quite suppress (he’s otherwise a nice guy), “thanked” me for the trade. Given subsequent developments I haven’t had the heart to thank him for giving us a quality QB plus draft picks for a QB who hasn’t done squat for them.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I agree
They said that because we only give up 10(is it 15 sacks) sacks cutler was part of it. Marshall was good because of cutler.
by OrangeBroncos on Sep 11, 2010 8:52 AM MDT up reply actions
Hurt alot?
Thomas has had one injury that we knew about when we drafted him, he has not yet healed from that injury. I do not believe that constitutes alot. Playing devils advocate is ok, being constantly pessimistic is another.
by bleedbroncos on Sep 10, 2010 9:51 AM MDT up reply actions
agreed
I actually like the fact that McD, like Coach B for the Pats, overlook the injuries… unless they are really bad.
Almost every franchise doesn’t do this. It pays dividends in the end, however.
Thomas is not injury prone, neither is Decker. People get 1 or two injuries and the critics jump on them and say they are injury prone, such as Orton.
Most players do not injure the same ligament, muscle or bone twice. If they injure that same one repeatedly, I would say they are injury prone. Orton, for instance, has never injured the same thing twice. He is not injury prone. Thats simply bad luck.
Players coming back from an injury too soon that isn’t healed are injury prone… until they have healed. Then they are no longer injury prone.
Players that have issues with ligaments, muscles or bones on a consistent basis are injury prone.
Its that simple.
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
disagree
Health is a skill… some players are simply nicked up all the time, even if its not the same injury, etc.
Who knows why this is… This may be because they don’t brace themselves well when the get hit, or whatever, but saying the only injury prone players are the ones that injure the same thing twice is simply wrong. Maybe Orton’s ankles are simply not strong enough for a regular NFL beating… they haven’t held up well to date. Impossible to know.
Picking up injured players adds risk to any draft pick/player aquisition. In many cases, the reward (more talent at a cheaper price) is worth it… but pretending like there isn’t a downside to picking injured players is only looking at half the equation.
touche
I know many players that are now disabled as they hit people incorrectly. You lower your head and you risk never walking again, for instance.
You don’t lower your body and your at risk to getting hip and arm injuries.
Good rebuttal.
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
Health is a skill. Great quote and very true.
Marvin Harrison was the best at protecting himself from big hits even if it made him look like a sissy many a time.
Brandon Marshall is going to shorten his career if he keeps up with this trying to break every single tackle. Ditto on Adrian Peterson.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Agreed as well
Though I’d say Jerry Rice was the best ever at minimizing the hits… that’s why he played into his 40s.
I don't think Thomas fully recovered before coming back
I think he was pushing himself back onto the field too early, because he is a rookie, excited about entering the pro’s, and wants to contribute.
I fear he is still coming back too early.
He simply aggravated an injury that had not healed fully yet.
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
You're giving the cry baby excuses.
This is what I keep hearing from the outside. the because of the OL blah blah blah, his OC turner was not good blah blah..I’m tired of giving the cry baby some excuses. I wonder why people keeps depending him he is a loser and no leadership that alone make’s him an average QB.
by OrangeBroncos on Sep 11, 2010 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions
it's a bit early to judge all the players though and decide a winner
Which is why I said the full trade should be evaluated over the next few years. You’re right as it stands now, Orton (not a draft pick) and Knox (surprise rookie season) are the only two who’ve performed so far. Yet, from a strategic evaluation, the immediate impact could be called a draw, but the future upside is definitely in the Bronco’s favor.
In the context of the post that more shows the total transactions of McX, it’s a pretty impressive execution of roster building via trade and draft maneuvering.
by BroncoInExile on Sep 10, 2010 7:56 AM MDT up reply actions
Agreed.
Particularly when you consider the fact that most analysts thought it would be hard for the Broncos to get good value for Cutler and Marshall due to the circumstances surrounding/leading up to their trades.
by blooming rock on Sep 10, 2010 1:04 PM MDT up reply actions
The only reason Knox looks like a steal
is beacasue they have no, and I mean no talent at WR. He would be a #2/#3 on 20 teams in the NFL. That isn’t bad at all for where he was drafted. Someone has to catch the ball on that team, and that inflates his numbers. Football outsiders had him ranked as the 62nd best reciever last year. http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/wr
Walter Sobchak: "Also, let's not forget - let's *not* forget, Dude - that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city - that aint legal either. "
by lakebuff on Sep 10, 2010 8:32 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah
very true. Many receivers numbers are inflated due the the QB targeting them a lot.
However, I like Knox, and wouldn’t mind him on our squad. Although I think he’d be a #4 receiver on our squad, as we have a lot of depth.
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
everyone keeps saying Thomas will be our deep threat
When he heals fully, we shall see. Hopefully this is true :D
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
ditto!
daaayuuuuum! you gonna take that KB?!? lol -Broncs55
Absolutely not. KB is a function of aggression and rage, the derivative of which can be traced back to my childhood.-KentuckyBronco
PS3 ID: KoRnHo|ed
When Thomas returns
we’ll have two deep threats with him and Willis. Think of the pressure on the defense if we have both on the field at the same time, which might happen occasionally in certain circumstances.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I'm afraid that Thomas is going to be another Ryan Torain.
I want to see him carve up some defenses, but I just hate how, on a team cobbled together from cheap, injury-prone players, we drafted more guys with injury history. They were bargains for a reason. They might pan out, they might not. Shanahan used to do the same thing. For once let’s get a guy that makes a serious impact, pay him for it, and not worry about his health or age. Buckhalter, Thomas, Barrett, Decker, Simms, Williams, White, etc., etc., etc. are all guys that we kept around or acquired knowing full well about their injury histories. It seems like good business until we find ourselves in the situation we’re in. Now I feel like I just got outfitted for a black tie dinner at the Dollar Store. Bargains, Bargains, Bargains! You get what you pay for, right?
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
Knox is pretty good. He was a 5th round rookie last year and he has a lot to improve upon, but he flashed more times a single game than Ayers or Quinn did the entire 2009 season.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
The ability of Knox is of no consequence
The Broncos did not trade Knox. They traded a 5th round pick. That’s the only factor that matters from a Broncos point of view. That Chicago had the savvy to turn that pick into Knox is immaterial. Answer this McGeorge: If The Broncos had traded a second round pick and The Bears had used that to pick an Alphonso Smith (like player), should we then consider it a good Denver trade?
You have to consider what the team does with their picks as part of any deal with picks involved.
I wish Chicago had used a pick on Phonz. Instead, they wasted their 3rd rounders on two guys they just cut. Chicago didn’t have a very good 2009 draft outside of Knox.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
We've been down this road before, McGeorge
and I still say that the trade and what each team does with the value received are separate events which when conflated only confuse the issue. Getting good value in trades and drafting well with the value you have, however attained, are separate skills that should be evaluated separately. If we trade two draft picks and receive ten in return, and bomb on all ten picks, it doesn’t mean we made a bad trade. It means we drafted badly. Since the only actual players traded were Cutler and Orton, and since the latter has outperformed the former and we got two firsts and a third for a fifth in addition, in the deal per se the Bears front office got taken to the cleaners by McXanders. The only reason we got way more value in draft picks than we gave up was the assumption that Cutler would be that much better a QB. Since he not only wasn’t but was actually outplayed by Orton, the trade tilts decisively in our favor until or unless Cutler demonstrates that he really is that much better than Orton. That we got way more value in draft picks is not just a fact. It was the point.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Sep 11, 2010 6:32 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Stop making so much sense Spock. I completely agree. Thats what McG and I have been arguing about. We busted with the selection of Smith, but the concept is not stupid.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
If you can’t judge the impact of draft picks on how you judge a trade, then why include them in the trade in the 1st place.
If Ayers becomes a star or a bust has a massive impact on how I view the Cutler deal. If that confuses the issue for you, I’m surprised. It seems pretty 1+1 to me.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
I consider the value of draft picks given and received in trades
in order to determine how good McXanders are at making deals. I consider who they drafted and how those picks turned out, regardless of how we acquired them, in order to determine how good they are at drafting. I’m not opposed to combining those two analyses subsequently, and also an analysis of free agent signings, in order to see how effective they are at player acquisition and team building, but lumping them all together initially just muddies the waters.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
by spock on Sep 11, 2010 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is what I have
Here is something I posted awhile back to indicate what Xanders got in return for Cutler, Marshall and Scheffler, my math is only slightly different:
Broncos have received:
Kyle Orton (Cutler trade) – Many would make this trade straight up.
Robert Ayers (Cutler trade)
Richard Quinn or David Bruton (Cutler 3rd Rounder and Broncos 3rd Rounder were traded for Quinn and Bruton)
Demaryius Thomas (Cutler trade)
Tim Tebow (BMarsh and Cutler trade)
Eric Decker (Cutler Trade)
Miami’s 2011 2nd Rounder (BMarsh Trade)
Perrish Cox (Scheffler Trade)
Broncos have traded:
Cutler
Brandon Marshall
Tony Scheffler
2009 5th Rounder (Cutler Trade)
2010 4th Rounder (Tebow trade)
2010 7th Rounder (Scheffler Trade)
by ocbroncomaniac on Sep 9, 2010 9:34 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
one correction
Bruton was our normal 4th round pick, I believe. It was Quinn and Seth Olsen (since waived) for the third rounders, wasn’t it?
wait a second
Seth olsen was a 3rd round pick???
by Pmoreno95 on Sep 9, 2010 10:30 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
4th
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yep....that's for real
by Sayre Bedinger on Sep 9, 2010 10:44 PM MDT up reply actions
hrm...
I guess Seth was a little bit bustish… that’s too bad. But… we were thinner at guard/center than at tackle. He was effectively competing for the fourth tackle spot behind Beadles.
because it turned out he was really
just a G there was no T in his repertiore unfortunately and McD does value versatility, especially with our injuries.
How does anyone stay warm without a neckbeard?
by neckbeard's nephew on Sep 9, 2010 11:31 PM MDT up reply actions
that would make sense
And if Stanley Daniels outplayed him, then that was basically game over, given that Kuper and Beadles were also better Guards, and that Hoch is so versatile. Eric Olsen might have a better shot since he’s a C/G.
Jeremy and I were agreeing on this on another thread
Olsen is not a total bust, he just never was able to play himself into a role on the squad. A bust for the Broncs – yes – but not a terrible draft pickup. If Beadles and E. Olsen had shown less in camp Olsen very well could be in our starting lineup.
Watching the preseason games, it was clear that Olsen is a very solid left guard. Anywhere else he is a turnstile, though, and looked lost. Daniels, OTOH, is equally marginal/competent at almost any line spot you put him in – making the roster decision easy.
correct, a late 4th
We obtained Richard Quinn and Seth Olsen for the two #3s, not Bruton. There was incorrect information posted at that time that’s led to the incorrect belief that Bruton came out of that deal.
"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - quoted in The Paranoid Style in American Politics
interesting analysis
though i think most of the vitriol comes from mouths who have simply flown over the situation at 20,000 feet, and dont really care to know what is really happening. these are usually the same people who would pick the cowboys or the jets to win the superbowl.
The poster formerly known as "Denver_Diaspora"
by Jay Fin Anderson on Sep 9, 2010 11:01 PM MDT reply actions
IMO – early returns favor Denver in the Cutler deal. If not for Knox looking like a legit starting WR, I’d say heavily favor Denver.
But if we want to evaluate McD on trades, you also have to factor in the Alphonso Smith deal, which is already carved in stone as one of the very worst draft day trades in the last decade. That is a big -1.
The Tom Branstater trade failed badly and the Rich Quinn trade looks bad right now. I’d throw in the LeKevin Smith/Hoch trade into this parlay. Maybe even Hillis and draft pick in 2012 for Brady Quinn. Those were five McD trades where we have either ended up on the wrong side of the W/L column or look to be headed that way.
If Tebow turns into a franchise QB for us, all these sins are washed away.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
by McGeorge on Sep 9, 2010 11:11 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
other players
who will be franchise players – Demaryius Thomas (Ozzie Newsome wanted him badly from all reports), J.D. Walton, Eric Decker, Robert Ayers, Knowshon Moreno (highly coveted by A.J. Smith), Perrish Cox and possibly Beadles, Squid, McBath. Who cares if a few others didn’t pan out, this is a potential haul. When I found out that succesful GM’s like the ones stated above were high on our players it made it more concrete for me.
We will win 5 to 7 of the next 10 Super Bowls if all these guys turn into franchise players.
Unfortunately, you are dreaming.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Yeah. That's a lot of projected "franchise" players.
Nine in two years of drafting! That’d be the best two draft classes by any team ever.
Now, I think most of those players look promising and will likely contribute to a good team in the next few years, with possibly a couple of “franchise” type players, but to call all those guys “franchise” players is insane.
by blooming rock on Sep 10, 2010 1:10 PM MDT up reply actions
Remaining draft
Okay, so for the sake of argument we establish that Denver is coming out ahead of the Cutler/Marshall deals. We’ll stick to what McD had coming in, and the choices he made.
What’s left is our normal draft picks, and trading away Hillis/Scheffler (and Smith).
2009:
You pick either Quinn or Olsen as part of our normal draft slate, and the rest of the picks are normal picks. The exception is Phonz, which I’ll count in 2010. We didn’t have a #6, but had two #7s. We traded one of the 7ths and a 2010 5th for Tom Brandstater (since waived).
2009 Slate:
#1: Knowshon Moreno
#2: Darcel McBath
#3: Either Richard Quinn or Seth Olsen, you pick
#4: David Bruton
#5: Kenny McKinley (still with team on IR)
#7: Blake Schlueter (waived)
2010:
The remaining picks were all normal picks, except that we traded Scheffler and a 7th (#220) for Perrish Cox.
2010 Slate:
#1: Alphonso Smith(*) (we got Gronkowski)
#2: Zane Beadles
#3: J.D. Walton
#6: Eric Olsen
2011:
A normal draft slate, except we have an extra 2nd (Marshall), are missing a 5th (Syd’Quan and Kirlew – Kirlew was waived, so it’s Syd-Quan), and are missing a 6th (Hillis and the 6th for Brady Quinn).
Questions to judge:
1) Did we get reasonable value from the 2009 slate as described above?
2) Did we get reasonable value from the 2010 slate as described above?
3) Was Brandstater reasonable value for a 2009 7th and a 2010 5th?
4) Was Cox reasonable value for Scheffler and a 7th?
5) Was Squid/Kirlew reasonable value for a 2011 5th?
6) Was Brady Quinn reasonable value for Hillis and a 2011 6th?
You average those answers in with your thoughts of how the Cutler Trade in the fanpost worked out, and you have a complete picture of how McD/X are doing with Denver drafts/trades so far. (Completely leaving out free agency.)
My own answers:
1) I think 2009 slate value is average compared to other teams.
2) I think 2010 slate is definitely below average, because of Smith. A first round bust hurts.
3) I think Brandstater is slightly disappointing value.
4) I think Cox is good value for Shef and a 7th.
5) I think Squid by himself is good value for a 5th.
6) I think Quinn is average for Hillis and a 6th.
Overall, I think aside from the Cutler trade, McD/X is slightly below average because of Smith. But that the Cutler trade averaged in means that all things considered, McD/X is comfortably above average.
The real way to answer this is to compare it to other teams. You’d expect fewer players from 2009 to stick around than from 2010. Not sure how to do an apples-to-apples, but without that, we’re really all just cherry-picking data to reinforce our own biases.
btw
I’m hazy on Hochstein/Le Kevin… apparently we traded a 2010 7th round, and then got that exact same pick back? So it averages out to us trading a 2010 5th for Le Kevin and Hochstein? But I’m not sure how we got two 2010 5ths (the other going to Brandstater). I suppose I can just assume that both those 5ths existed before McD showed up. So it would be another question – was Hochstein + Le Kevin reasonable value for a 2010 5th? I would say yes – Le Kevin helped others learn the 3-4, and Hochstein has offered offensive versatility.
yes, we borrowed it to NE for a week
Hochstein and L K Smith cost a 5th, which transpired as Hochstein for a 7th and then L K Smith for a 5th with the original 7th sent back to us. It only cost a 5th for both Hochstein and Smith but it was technically two separate transactions.
Hochstein ↔ 7th
L K Smith + 7th ↔ 5th
"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - quoted in The Paranoid Style in American Politics
answer to 2nd part
I’m not sure how we got two 2010 5ths (the other going to Brandstater).
We traded Montrae Holland to Dallas for a 5th, which may account for it.
As far as whether they were commensurate value — yes. Hochstein clearly was because he started but Smith didn’t contribute much. However, he was beat out this year by greater depth (and the need for a monster such as Vickerson).
"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - quoted in The Paranoid Style in American Politics
I'm thinking
that Holland trade was before McD showed up, yes? If so, we can just look at it as a pick that McD had available to him coming in.
correct
Let me clarify, because I didn’t understand what the question was:
We had one 5th that we used for McKinley. We traded a 5th in the Brandstater deal, but it was for 2010. We traded with New England for LeKevin Smith and a 7th for a 5th. We then had no 2010 5th round picks. We then traded with Detroit and Cleveland before the 2010 draft, sending Scheffler and 7th for a 5th.
Here’s a ‘kicker’: we picked up a 7th for Foxworth, but I can’t tell you which, so maybe Foxworth helped us acquire one the players I’ve mentioned (Brandstater?). It gets a little too byzantine.
"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - quoted in The Paranoid Style in American Politics
make sense
and yes, I found information that showed that the Foxworth 7th was used for Brandstater. That Foxworth-7th transaction predated McD.
right on that last line...
I’m one of the few who’d still wind back the clock if I could undo basically EVERY trade McX has made…. I’m all for giving them this year to prove me wrong.
Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself.
by Whidbey Bronco on Sep 10, 2010 6:02 AM MDT up reply actions
“but without that, we’re really all just cherry-picking data to reinforce our own biases.”
That is why I pointed out that you were cherry picking.
Saying Squid is good value for a 2011 5th is casting judgment a little early. no? McKinley looked like a great pick at the end of the 2009 preseason. I doubt he ever plays another regular season game for us and his career has been ZERO impact thus far. He’ll be a long shot to make the 2011 team.
Brandstater looked like a good pick after the 2009 preseason and now his NFL career looks to be over without ever playing a single NFL game.
Preseason stars do not always turn into regular season players.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Sorry, I had a hard time following it and having to place a response so much lower down the page. I like to read what is written above as I respond and I couldn’t here.
I’ll do better next time.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
no prob
maybe I was harsh – my point is that me attempting to list the entire draft history so far is my effort to get away from the cherry-picking. However, I think it will be impossible to do that without introducing elements like, comparing our draft performance to that of other teams (is our standard really that every draft pick should have regular playing time?). Also, pointing out that very good teams might have a lower rate of accepting quality rookies, just because the competition is so strong – and one could argue that we’re getting there with our secondary and receiver corp.
Plus, I agree with you that (in regards to Squid) that preseason stars to not always turn into regular season players. But I think that’s true regardless of who you spend a 5th round choice on – you’re going to have a lot of 5th rounders that aren’t going to make a team. So there it again just depends on what standard you choose, and if we don’t have a clear objective one, then it’s difficult to put opposing arguments on the same footing.
So while it may be unfair to point to just the Cutler trade output as positive cherry-picking, it’s also why I think that pointing out the Alphonso transactions is negative cherry-picking. The question I like thinking about is taking all this data as a whole, is McD/X above average or below average? I sincerely hope it’s above average because that’s the only way (in addition to free agency and luck) that we are going to improve relative to other teams.
Exactly
This cherry-picking business goes both ways.
by AllBroncsallday on Sep 10, 2010 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions
I’m not a cherry picker, I call it like I see it.
The Cutler trade is looking good for us. The Phonz trade (pretty much all the 2009 draft trades) were S##T for us. All of them should be included in the discussion of McD’s status as an possible “idiot” (your word)
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
We ALL call them like we see it
and in doing so we sometimes, perhaps inadvertently, cherry pick. I’ve done it, I’ve seen you do it, I’ve seen many others do it. It’s part of the human condition. Anytime we evaluate moves based on what we know now that wasn’t known then, we’re cherry picking. It’s only when the players involved have an NFL track record, with film of them performing in actual games, that it’s not cherry picking, as with Cutler vs. Orton.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
That is not true. A lot of people call it as they want to see it.
“The Phonz will be fine” is my favorite example.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
I still think Phonz will be a good player. It wont be for us but he will be an above average starter in the NFL.
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
by boydy2669 on Sep 11, 2010 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Damn...hate when that happens....but I see where you are coming from McG!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
"A lot of people call it as they want to see it"
And you of course think you’re different. I enjoy your posts, but I’m not so sure you’re as free of want-to-see bias as you like to think. I do give you credit for later realizing and admitting errors.
"Surprised to see you, Captain, though pleased." — from Star Trek episode Space Seed.
I’m better at this than most at MHR.
I don’t paint all my pictures using just orange and blue.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
Yeah....
that’s why your paintings piss people off.
-Harvey J. Neptune
"Practice doesn't make perfect. PERFECT practice makes perfect." - Vince Lombardi
McGeorge...
I like your analysis of all these trades. A bit dour, but usually objective.
I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on comparing McD’s success with draft/trades compared with other coaches.
You can certainly question some of McD’s move. Especially last year given his short prep time. But If we put Shanahan under the same microscope, I think we would see some errors as well.
As you said, wins and losses are the true judge, but aside from that, I’m curious as to what you think.
by charlesnelsonreilly on Sep 10, 2010 11:10 AM MDT up reply actions
I have no idea why you guys always refer to Shanahan after reading one of my posts. I wanted Shanny fired after the 2007 season.
It seems like a lot of you think I was a big Shanny supporter. I wasn’t. His coached SUCKED from 2006 thru 2008. IT SUCKED and Bolwen held on one year too long IMO.
Denver: 32-32 until we're not.
I will back McG up. he has never been a Shanahan supporter...nor a hater. I am in agreement with him. he ran a shoddy out fit 2006 onwards!
You, my friend, are proof you dont need to have big floppy feet and a red nose to be a clown!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Sorry if I also sounded a bit dour...
Was an honest question as i do appreciate your honest analysis.
by charlesnelsonreilly on Sep 11, 2010 6:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Demaryius also
has a skill set that only comes around once or twice a decade. Calvin Johnson, Randy Moss, Andre Johnson, Marques Colston.
LOL
A skill set that only comes around once or twice a decade is a bit much to be attached to Thomas at this point, number one. (hopefully you’re right)
Number two, you then list four players all from the last decade. That just made me laugh. Why not throw Larry Fitzgerald in there while your at it, to really prove your point.
Sorry, man, just bustin your chops. :)
It takes neither courage nor intelligence to cheer for a team only when that team wins. The true test of a fan's mettle is the same as it is for a player: Were you there when you were needed?
aka Solace
Well, as you guys know I want you to do well and Orton appears to be flourishing with McDaniels. It’s still quite early for me to determine who go the better end of the bargain because I’ll need another year at least. I have noticed that Josh apprears to be taking a different approach even during interviews. If he wants to entertain a trade request then he should, there’s no law against it. What I don’t get is the constant fascination with Denver. If you guys have a chance go over to the chicago Sun Times and there is an article that was suppose to be about Cutler’s new start. Instead it was another moment for him to talk about Josh. They actually tried to contact him for an interview-talk about unique. Every team will take in some bad players so you just have to grin and bear it. This next decade at receiver will be quite interesting because you have a young Thomas and Bryant and it can make both of them better in the long run. It certainly worked for Rice, Irvin, and Smith! Nothing occurs over night and try to stay patient. You’ll find your mojo again. I would hope that Cutler would play better, but given the fact that they hired martz (who hasn’t done anything since 1999 and tends to eventually rub people the wrong way) the prospects are probably slim. I finaaly had a chance to visit Denver and I must say it’s very nice. Good Luck on your season!
Needagoodtime!
Cool thanks for the rational comment
I still think Cutler is super talented, just needs to get his head on straight, mature more, take on more responsibility but also stop trying to do everything himself. This willbe an interesting year to watch. I’m still happy with the Broncos’ end of the deal and enjoy rooting for Orton. Cheers.
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers/Lakers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants/Warriors country, and damned proud of it.
Re: Quinn
I also think it’s way too early to judge him as a bust, or average, or whatever. He’s just in his 2nd year, and he could end up ultimately disappointing, or a good blocker who can’t catch in which case he may end up useful but not worth where he was picked. And some of it could be the scheme he’s in where blocking is emphasized more than catching for TE’s. We shall see. I realize you were throwing that in there as a bust just to not look one-sided ;-) but even he could turn out okay. I want to see how develops over the course of this season.
And thanks for taking the time to do this analysis! It would make my head hurt if I’d tried it.
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers/Lakers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants/Warriors country, and damned proud of it.
one thing to keep in mind
When we say we traded away Marshall, we have to keep in mind that we only traded away the time we had left on his contract. Even if we hadn’t traded him, I think when he hit FA we would have lost him because we probably wouldn’t want to pay the price his agent would have been asking/demanding.
by Bradoncadonc on Sep 10, 2010 11:29 AM MDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
That's an important reminder
It looks even better now.
by BroncoInExile on Sep 10, 2010 1:48 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Great post
I admit, that I was quit unclear about what we got and how everything turned out with both the Cutler and Marshall trades. But I have to say, I am SO happy that we got rid of both those guys. From just my point of view, I see Tebow being a lot better than Cutler and Thomas being better than Marshall, and both come without the attitude and off the field problems! As talented as Marshall and Cutler were they were’nt really winners. We are starting to build a team full of winners and that’s what I like about the McDaniels era so far. The best thing about all of this is that we’re built for long terms success (via the draft) and I just felt with the old players we had we already reached our cieling.
Stiff 4 Life
nope :)
won’t really be old news until we draft that 2nd rounder next year. history is still being written on the cutler trade!
Madden Syndrome?
You can’t draft perfectly. When was Terrel Davis drafted? When was JaMarcus Russel drafted? Point being, let’s not get too hung up on the draft. It’s undeniably important, but let’s be clear. In fact, I think I’ll start a new paragraph for this because I might repost it as a fanpost.
Let us keep in mind the goal of a draft: to wind up with 53 players on your team that will be able to get some hardware for the team trophy case. The draft is the main tool for getting those players, and thus the temptation to overanalyze the draft. However, analysis can miss the point.
Firstly, if you get that trophy, or if in general you win games, then the coach/team drafted well. Not everyone can get the Lombardi every year, and a certain number of teams every year are just going to have bad luck. So you have to give a coach/team a few years. If the team wins, that means they have 53 good players. They’ve achieved the goal, so evaluating their draft is pointless. Obviously, that’s not going to stop it. Evaluating is something to do, and it can be amusing.
The extension of the 53 players thing is that part of the team is the starting 22, and the impact situational players. Don’t think about players. That’s the problem with all this focus on one particular draft pick. You want 2 good starting CBs, and then as much depth as possible. We’ve got Champ. That’s 1. 1 CB and 1 roster spot. If a coach spends a 1st rounder and a 5th rounder on filling that second roster spot, it doesn’t matter which player fills the spot so long as the cornerback play is good. It’s actually better if the 5th rounder turns out and you can trade the 1st rounder. You save money, and whatever you get from the trade is a bonus. You just want to fill your roster spot.
Same thing goes for a quarterback. A good quarterback is more rare than a good player at most other positions, but you only need 1 roster spot — and depth. You have to keep the salary cap in mind, but as long as you’ve got that roster spot set, you drafted well. The quarterback for the Broncos this year is probably going to throw for over 4,000 yards and have a great TD-to-INT ratio, which will hopefully help us win enough games to get in playoff contention. I think most teams would give up a first round pick for that, but the point is what draft value you gave up for that quarterback is really irrelevant. You give up draft picks for a CHANCE at filling your quarterback roster slot with that kind of performance. If you have something that’s hard to get, it’s tempting to ask yourself if you paid too much for it, but in this case you have to remind yourself that getting a good quarterback was never a guaranteed thing and just try to be happy with the fact that we hopefully have one for this year.
As far as McX drafting goes, not enough seasons have gone by. You can’t rule out bad luck yet as the cause of one mediocre season (nor rule out good luck being why they didn’t do worse). All we can do is trust that their main goal is to get those 53 players that can win. I trust based on what I hear from the organization through basically MHR and ESPN that their goal is indeed to put the players on the field who give the team the best possible chance to win. That should be every coach’s goal, but they are human and emotions and other things could get in the way. Based on what I hear, as I’ve said, though, I think McX’s goal is the field the best possible 53.
As I said above, no coach-GM combination can draft perfectly. They’re not playing Madden, with nice player ratings to tell them immediately whether or not they’ve made a good decision. NFL talent evaluators are myriad, as are their draft boards, etc., etc. They make just as many mistakes, but as long as they don’t work for an NFL team, they can have the luxury of vilifying the mistakes of others, lauding whatever picks they were right on, and letting the rest die in the white noise.
It’s probably not hard to be wrong about a player. And Broncos fans shouldn’t need reminding that, even if you get ones right, misfortune can step in (Darrent Williams). There’s so much information out there on players, especially unproven draftees and draft prospects, that it’s easy to see a piece of information on a player repeated enough and make the mistake of thinking it’s authoritative, on the level of a Madden rating. In Madden, a player can’t play better than his rating. He can’t run faster than his Speed, he can’t jump higher than his Jump. In real life, it’s hard to say. No matter how many people agree with a player evaluation, it’s not a Madden rating. The player could prove to be better or worse than thought by that commonly believed evaluation.
The point is that it is impossible to draft perfectly because evaluating talent is not an exact science. This is why you can’t get too hung up on evaluating individual draft picks. Look at the team on the field. Is it good? Evaluating draft picks can be fun, for sure. But drawing conclusions as to the impact of a draft pick on a team is dubious at a point when there’s no product on the field yet. Considering how tangled cause and effect can be, it’s best to put your feelings about the team in one box and only let that box be touched by what you see on the field; and put your analysis of a draft pick’s wisdom in another box. That box is the box of amusing speculation. The place to keep all your what-ifs and such (I loved those Marvel comics). Don’t let that box near your orange Kool-Aid.
You can put your Kool-Aid down if the product on the field isn’t a winner (season by season, mind you). But let your blood flow ever orange and blue.
As for draft picks and amusing speculation, keep in mind that you should evaluate picks in terms of probabilities, not right/wrong. If a player doesn’t work out, regardless where he was drafted, that doesn’t mean the coach was wrong about the pick. The coach might have been wrong about the player, but he didn’t get the player from a truck in the parking lot of the grocery store. It’s not like the player turned out to be a cheaply made knockoff of a real NFL player. If a coach saw potential in a player, and the player really has that potential, but for some reason the player doesn’t get to that potential, the coach wasn’t wrong. It just didn’t work out. I think that’s the case more often than not in the NFL. Where you get really bad is when your decision makers overvalue certain secondary traits that aren’t the most important traits for players who you need to fill key roster spots (see Oakland). I believe that would be called a Systematic error.
Any pick, I don’t care where or what round, is a shot at getting a roster spot filled with a good player. You draft 3 guys to fill one spot because you know that the chances are 1 might not work out. If you get 53 good players, and you’re under cap, you did a good job drafting. I will not say that we are wrong to debate the value and wisdom of draft picks. But keep that evaluation in its proper box. Only draw conclusions about the wisdom of the pick, not about the quality of the team. And remember that a coach didn’t necessarily overspend for a pick that an oft-repeated evaluation determined had a lower probability of succeeding than you would like from a player picked at that spot. It’s an opinion, no matter how oft-repeated, not a Madden rating (as it relates to in-game players).
That said, GO BRONCOS!!!
by Orange Rush on Sep 10, 2010 11:51 PM MDT reply actions 6 recs
Great point about probabilities!
So many folks get worked up about certain stochastic events being right/wrong or W/L, and ignore the huge inherent variation. Just because the Chiefs beat Denver last year doesn’t mean KC was a better team than Denver last year… Denver probably had a 55-60% probability of winning the game… just because the low-side of probability turns up doesn’t mean that picking Denver isn’t the “right bet”, etc.
Same with draft picks…. Tebow has a significant likelihood of busting out due to his poor mechanics… and a significant probability of success do to his positive attributes. Whether he pans out or not says NOTHING about whether McX is a good drafter or not… to know that, we have to compare them to the other 31 GM/Coach combos in the NFL, and see if in aggregate their ability to select, develop and deploy talent on the field leads to more Wins than Losses. Looking at 1 player or trade out of context to the aggregate decisions only tells part of the picture.
For example, is the trade a Phonz a indicator of McX sucking, or that McX’s eye for late round talent (Squid, Vaughn) being excellent? We won’t know until we see some on field results, and even that will still be muddled due to the fuzziness of player development and deployment (are they used in situations where they can succeed)….
I give you a break because your knowledge of what I and half of my fan-base (thanks guys, I didn’t know you cared) comes from what you hear at ESPN and the WC Gridiron. Read the Tebow Thread and see how many of us are giggling like girls over his chances to play today. Speaking of giddy fanbases, isn’t “The Franchise that escaped Denver” playing today? Should I start Detroit’s back-field on my fantasy team? JK, but I will be keeping an eye on the Chicago game, like always = )
I'm tired of hearing about money, money, money, money, money. I just want to play the game, drink Pepsi, wear Reebok.
Shaquille O'Neal












































