Denver Broncos: A Look Back ... and Forward
As I sit here, less than an hour after the ball dropped on the eastern seaboard, happy that my sick one year old is finally resting peacefully, I began to contemplate the recent past of our beloved Denver Broncos and its immediate future. The problem that has troubled me for nearly half the season is that this team should not be as bad as it is. I look at the roster and I see talent that should be getting the job done, yet hasn't.
I know I am likely in the minority, as a 4-11 record will ensure, but I think I came across something that may just be that ray of hope we are all looking for. And no, it's name is not Tim Tebow. The ray of hope is that this team is not devoid of talent, this team is not as devoid in talent as was the team the Broncos fielded in 2008. What this team is devoid in, is confidence in themselves and experience from their coaches. I think the current coaching staff, though I've hammered them collectively in recent weeks, have the ability to coach at this level, but I am wholly focused on their current inability to get results.
Thanks to John Bena, I caught an article written by Andrew Mason on one John Fox. What sold me on my own belief that the talent on this roster is not as vacant as other major media outlets have led us to believe is this simple excerpt from Mason's blog, MaxDenver.com:
He (John Fox) is also the kind of coach who can find ways to utilize the talent on hand, and you can look at the Panthers’ 2003 NFC title-winning team for evidence. Their starting lineup in Super Bowl XXXVIII included 14 starters who were a part of a 1-15 team 25 months earlier. Twenty-two of the 44 Panthers who played in that Super Bowl were on the 1-15 team. (Compare that with the Broncos’ roster at Arizona; they had just seven starters and 11 players overall who were with the team in 2008.)
The reason I believe the current Broncos roster has more in common with John Fox's 1-15 Panthers of 2001 than the Broncos 2008 is because of the players on this roster I'd prefer to keep than to expend. I'll start with the offense.
Tim Tebow, Brady Quinn, Knowshon Moreno, Correll Buckhalter, Lance Ball, LenDale White, Brandon Lloyd, Demaryius Thomas, Jabar Gaffney, Eddie Royal, Eric Decker, Daniel Graham, Richard Quinn, Ryan Harris, Chris Kuper, J.D. Walton, Zane Beadles, Ryan Clady, and Russ Hochstein.
That is twenty guys. If the offense takes up half the roster, well we could theoretically add several more guys to the mix. I want to touch on a few that get more hate than they deserve. First is Daniel Graham. Watch the highlight reels, he is always the first guy to congratulate his teammates after a score. An incoming head coach would be a fool to get rid of a veteran like Graham, not only that, he has taken a seemingly reduced role on offense in stride as Richard Quinn begins to fully transition to the NFL. However, people have their views and no amount of reason or game tape will move the masses from their perceptions. One a bum, always a bum.
Another guy people do not care for, must be the "if they are over 30 they suck" Madden crowd, is Correll Buckhalter. He'll never be the starter, but he provides a unique skill set in a limited role and it would be foolish to discard him without having someone to fill that role. As for Russ Hochstein, he knows the assignments of every single interior line position and is a solid backup.
Brady Quinn is also a guy worth keeping as a backup. Name one backup quarterback that is worth starting in the NFL? Yeah, didn't think so, those guys are all traded to QB needy teams. I think we can live with Brady Quinn for now. As for the rest, I should hope they speak for themselves and the debate is minimal.
Gee, all that for offense? And that was the less pretentious unit on the team! Well, let's take a look at the defense, shall we?
Guys I'd like to see in a Broncos uniform next year: Kevin Vickerson, Justin Bannan, Marcus Thomas, Ronald Fields, Mario Haggan, Jason Hunter, D.J. Williams, Wesley Woodyard, Elvis Dumervil, Robert Ayers, Joe Mays, Champ Bailey, Perrish Cox, Syd'Quan Thompson, Andre Goodman, Cassius Vaughn, Renaldo Hill, Brian Dawkins, and Darcel McBath. I also have three bubble guys in Jamal Williams, Ryan McBean, and David Bruton.
So that's a whooping twenty-one guys on one of the worst defensive units in Broncos history. I'm crazy right? Well that depends on how much you think the results on the field were more due to talent or scheme and coaching. I've slowly come to believe its the latter more than the former.
The first guy I want to cover is Justin Bannan. I have read and heard many people complain about him, but all I have seen from his play is consistently doing his job and making a few plays here and there. He is a lock in my mind. The interior line is where this unit fails miserably, which is why I would love to see the next head coach make the switch back over to a 4-3 defensive scheme. They are weak at linebacker and deep at defensive tackle, except right now this team doesn't use defensive tackles in the sense I am talking about.
Another guy is Brian Dawkins. If you think he has no value on this team, take a listen to Tim Tebow's interview with a local radio station. I'd like to see him return as well. The fact is, wholesale destruction of this team will not result in wins. Keeping the aging veterans, or at least most of them, is ideal because drafting a player is going to take a year or two before they are good enough not to get burned a few times every game. Especially at the cornerback and safety positions.
This team was absolutely horrible in many areas, but most of it was and is mental. They have the talent to win any game, they just need someone to come in to weave it all together. My vote is for John Fox, because he has a proven record of getting the most out of his players. I will also be happy if most of the guys I named are still around next season, with free agency and the draft bolstering an already talented, if under-performing, football team.
As for tomorrow, the Broncos are going to blow up the San Diego Chargers. Well, maybe not blow up, but they'll win. Just the kind of thing this franchise will need heading into another offseason of change and uncertainty. Hopefully it will be the last for quite some time.
GO BRONCOS!
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Since Fox has been told he wont be coaching the panthers
next year we should look into him as our coach
live and die blue and orange
Good for him...bad for us.
If only McD had surrounded himself with tremendously experienced coaches.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Jan 1, 2011 11:32 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't see McDaniels coming to K.C.
With what went on this year, and knowing McDaniels ego, i don’t see him and Haley getting along. I personally hope Weis stays at least for one more year, and i don’t understand why he would want to go to College and do the same job he’s doing now in the NFL. It sucks period!
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
LOL Just a little bit:P
Weis did say when he came here, his job was to fix the QB. If that’s the case then i think he did a good job.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I would also like to point out
That this offense was never in Weis’s complete control, Haley said from the beginning that it would be a mixture of his offense as well. I think what will be missed the most will be Weis ability to help the young players get up to speed, and i don’t think we need another O.C. Haley can handle that job on his own now with one more year under his belt.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Who
DOESN’T have trouble getting along with Haley?
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Jan 1, 2011 3:38 PM MST up reply actions
The same could be said of McD....
"I used to fight the pain, but recently this became clear to me: pain is not my enemy; it is my call to greatness."--Henry Rollins
"Victory belongs to the most persevering." --Napoleon.
Well
McD is gone, so screw him
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Jan 1, 2011 4:00 PM MST up reply actions
Haha thats true.
I, for one, am ready to move on! 2011 could not come soon enough.
"I used to fight the pain, but recently this became clear to me: pain is not my enemy; it is my call to greatness."--Henry Rollins
"Victory belongs to the most persevering." --Napoleon.
Agree.
I think there was some personality issues from their history in NE. That was a pretty disrespectful dis Haley gave McD.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jan 1, 2011 6:02 PM MST up reply actions
I don't shake cheaters hands either.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Seriously Caveman?
He was pissed because his team got their ass kicked! Kind of like what he did to the Broncos the year before but that time it was just playing the game right?
Take the double standard back to AP
The QB position is set!
by broncofaninIL on Jan 1, 2011 9:32 PM MST up reply actions
Haley knew of the cheating reports...........
Thats why he said people are talking about you when he was pointing his finger at him. How thats a double standard is beyond me.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I don't think Haley has ultimate choice when it comes to McD.
If Pioli wants Josh, he’ll be on the team. Bottom line.
by Gristle McThornbody on Jan 1, 2011 7:20 PM MST up reply actions
I think I've figured the McDaniels thing out now.
This was a plot by Pioli to destroy the Broncos then hire him as our O.C. The problem is that i hate him and if he becomes the Chiefs O.C i might have to root for another team:(
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
Maybe McD should have traded draft choices for experienced coaches? Just kidding, lol
I agree, Larsen shouldn’t get any bigger. I am getting tired of his bone crushing hits knocking the pixels off my TV, once they fall to the floor they are very hard to find.
by Arctic Bronco on Jan 1, 2011 2:03 PM MST up reply actions
Or
we could have drafted some head coaches, to give josh some competition LOL
Tony Robbins calls Tim Tebow for motivational support.
Where is that from
Because I heard they were pretty happy with who they have, he’s kind of made some big improvements over there. I do know fans in Miami, Cincy and Detroit are wanting him to come there.
Orton, Tebow, Quinn, who cares as long as the Broncos win.
I heard that he denied
those reports that he was going to be the OC for Florida were true. I believe that he will stay in KC.
"I used to fight the pain, but recently this became clear to me: pain is not my enemy; it is my call to greatness."--Henry Rollins
"Victory belongs to the most persevering." --Napoleon.
Charlie's son is going to Florida, so it might be true that he's moving on.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
I'd rather talk about the Broncos coaching situation
The QB position is set!
by broncofaninIL on Jan 1, 2011 9:33 PM MST up reply actions
Just responding to his comment
Maybe you should reply to his not mine.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
That's what I hear too
Orton, Tebow, Quinn, who cares as long as the Broncos win.
To be incitive........
if the Broncos had an average D this year, Orton would have gotten the Broncos into the playoffs and McD would still be here. Count the games the D lost. Now, my prediction that McD will be in the SB before the Broncos get there will likely be manifested. He may be an assistant or a Coordiantor, but we will hear groaning and moaning when we see him on TV. I think it was a mistake to let him go because the “fans” were restless….
But the Broncos are where the Broncos are. They have more talent than the "experts: and “analysts” – both foreign and domestic – believe they do, but that doesn’t stop the glee with which the Broncos are maligned.
My point is that it doesn’t matter who the Broncos bring in, If they get darn lucky in the draft and in FA. the next staff will reap the benefits of McD’s work on the O side……
by Gulbrand on Jan 1, 2011 11:56 AM MST reply actions 4 recs
I'm right there with you....I wanted to keep McD.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Very not true.
You can’t compare a coordinator of a team to the HC when it comes to Super Bowl predictions.
Ryan McBean may win a Super Bowl next year as the 7th D-linemen of a much better team. That doesn’t mean McBean is awesome and Denver let go a Super Bowl player.
The only groaning and moaning in Denver will be if we continue to suck next season. McD’s many mistakes were a huge reason why there has been so much moaning and groaning the last two years.
If the Broncos don’t get lucky in FA or the 2011 draft and we still stink in 2011, the next staff will continue to suffer the consequences of McD’s work in Denver.
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
by McGeorge on Jan 1, 2011 3:41 PM MST up reply actions 3 recs
Uhm
what does the D have to do with Orton sucking on third down, taking bad sacks, being completely useless once the play breaks down etc.
Can we please stop painting Orton as if he were the second coming of John Elway. Yards are awesome, but they don’t win you games. Ask Jay Cutler and Mike Shanahan.
Tony Robbins calls Tim Tebow for motivational support.
I sadly agree. I think it was a tad knee jerk to oust McD so suddenly.
But then again, we can only make assumptions based on what evidence was made publicly.
by Gristle McThornbody on Jan 1, 2011 7:24 PM MST up reply actions
Tim I love you man but you are way off on a couple players.... at least as to their ability.
First let me say that the hardest 2 decisions you mention involve Daniel G. and Brian D.. Why because the are the finest examples of team oriented professional men in the entire NFL.so if we keep them I am fine with that but and while coach and scheme can make a big difference with some players there are a few on you list that are flat out terrible and would be back-ups on Fassel’s UFL champoinship team. So here is my please don’t keep list from you Its fine to keep list on offense Lindale White, Richard Quinn and Daniel Graham on Defense Ron fields. Ryan McBean, David Burton, Darcel McBath, Renaldo Hill.
the next biggest problem with the defense is that only 2 of the remaining players are starter quality Champ and Doom. All the rest of the players you mentioned are career back-ups that we have tried to start. DJ is a huge physical talent with a 5 cent brain. As a coach those kind of players get you fired that is why am so against DJ he is a great athlete. but Zach Davis was a LB see the contrast. I see the same out of Perish COx but he is young and may be able to be coached up. Squid will be a very good nickle back in the next couple years but never a stud starting corner
Our d was terrible because 3-4’s rely on excellent LB’s and safties. Our D line was just fine with bannan and Williams although Williams could not play enough downs.
Of course this is all SMO
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
I was talking just for 2011...some of those guys you don't want will be good backups.
For next year only…A phased transition is better in my mind…wholesale destruction worries me.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
yes we have to keep some of them Mario Haggen for example great guy will be fine for 1 year and he is not making a fortune
I also believe we can turn this around in 2 years but several of those guys will have to play a significant amount next year
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
It's high time
McBath sh**s or gets off the pot. Can the guy stay healthy? If he can, he’s our FS. Dawkins can go. Is Bruton the answer at SS? I’m not sold. I know he is a ST’s ace, but if he isn’t going to be the guy, we need to bring in another safety. Dawkins can’t cover anyone anymore, IMO. I’m tired of having liabilities all over the field, Tim. He may be great for the locker room, but can he bring it anymore? Graham still seems to be effective from my standpoint. He can still block, and catch the occasional dump off. That is all we need from our TE. It would be nice to have a young, pass catching TE to help Tebow out. I think that would be a huge boon for him to have at such an early stage in his development, but not with a high pick that we could use to take a defender. Just my .02.
Tony Robbins calls Tim Tebow for motivational support.
I'm working on a TE solution post Grind
coming real soon.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Let's stop the McD told you so before it starts please.
I was a McD supporter but regardless of how well he does in KC as on OC or sone where else, who cares. It did not work here and I wish him the best, except against the Broncos. It would never had worked here unless McD stepped aside for a GM and better more experienced coaches around him and that was not happening. Let’s all move on.
2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!
THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!
by The 3 Amigos on Jan 1, 2011 12:10 PM MST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
The thread.....
was a “look back” thread. Don’t want to look back? Don’t open the thread…..
It was a fantastically lousy D this year. They were discombobulated and gloriously lost on the field. Was that Wink? Does he get better next year? Should he “move on” ?
Gulbrand your post made me dumber.
I was not talking about the commets on McD will be amazing and we will wish we kept him, Tims post was awesome and I agree and I was one the few McD supporters through out but I was tired of the division amongst us fans and I really don’t want to see it again. I am saying move in from McD, what does wink have to do with anything?
2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!
THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!
by The 3 Amigos on Jan 1, 2011 2:32 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
* I was talking about comments on McD I meant
2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!
THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!
by The 3 Amigos on Jan 1, 2011 2:35 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Gulbrand the "post
2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!
THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!
by The 3 Amigos on Jan 1, 2011 2:37 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Gulbrand the post " made me dumber" is a joke by the way, a little Billly Madison for ya :)
2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!
THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!
by The 3 Amigos on Jan 1, 2011 2:38 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
speed
Tim it seemed to me that the games we got blown out of, besides the obvious no pressure on the quarterback,,was the defense looked slow, like they were running in deep mud. I was surprised also that they played so bad. I don"t think we can stick with most of these players and not suffer the same results.
The goal is to bring the defense from the bottom to the middle...
Moving to a 4-3, stacking the line a bit more and getting some more youngsters in the defensive backfield will help in this transition. Going young all around will increase speed and increase mistakes…
There is no easy road to a Top 10 defense…I just want to see it move from the bottom to near the middle. Progress.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Agreed Tim, progress is all we want right now!
2/3 of the earth is covered by water the other 1/3 is covered by Champ Bailey!
THIS IS BRONCOS COUNTRY!!!
by The 3 Amigos on Jan 1, 2011 2:33 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
re: Baghdad's and Tim L's points on speed
Firstly, regarding Tim’s point — I think we’re in a Catch-22 if we opt against getting younger, It’s an unfortunate side effect to getting better. My attention has been on the ILB position because it’s one area where a rookie could contribute sooner. It’s also an area where a FA might help. I, too, have mixed feelings about D.J., since his ability to shed is a liability. And it’s more than run defense; I’d like to find some pass coverage ability at LB. Any changes we make at this point hurt unit cohesion, so mistakes are expected but we can still improve.
Regarding Baghdad’s point — I’ve never been completely comfortable with the slower position specifications of the F.B.3-4. I don’t think breakdowns are purely a result of speed (rather than assignment breakdowns, etc.) but neither are we noticeably fast anymore, and it’s apparent on big plays.
I’m not for a complete junking of the F.B.3-4 so I think we’re going to have to have to settle for speed increases that improve our performance at particular positions, such a RDE or any of the LB positions. Improvements in play recognition will decrease our reaction time but there’s also room for speedier players at positions involved in pass coverage and rushing the QB.
"the megalomaniac view of oneself as the Elect, wholly good, abominably persecuted, yet assured of ultimate triumph; the attribution of gigantic and demonic powers to the adversary; the refusal to accept the ineluctable limitations and imperfections of human existence, such as transience, dissention, conflict, fallibility whether intellectual or moral; the obsession with inerrable prophecies…systematized misinterpretations, always gross and often grotesque." – Norman Cohn - quoted in The Paranoid Style in American Politics
by Colinski on Jan 1, 2011 6:18 PM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Nice comment Colinski and excellent points.
Love the MHR-U reference too. :) My biggest concern if we stay in the 3-4 is ILB…but if we switched to a 4-3 and drafted a DT, my biggest concern would then become MLB. lol The draft doesn’t inspire me much in regards to impact linebackers.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Good read
The offense needs little tweaking and a lot more experience for it to be play-off caliber….a receiving TE, maybe one Olineman, and a big bruising back are on my wish list.
Defensively, two to three top FA and 3 top draft picks (any any order) at the LB and D line positions could go a long ways towards a play-off caliber D. Thinking in terms of cost vs LONG term value I have to say B Dawk should probably go. Baily is still performing at an elite level but he has more value in trade IF we’re building a team. Other than that your post hit me as absolutely right on and accurate.
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
Thanks man!
There is certainly a lot of work to do.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Bailey?
His contract is going to end, are we still in a position to trade him or is he a free agent?
If we franchise him
We can trade him, otherwise he’s a FA.
Orton, Tebow, Quinn, who cares as long as the Broncos win.
Raider fans seem to think Bailey will be playing for them next year.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
It would be nice to see him end his career in Denver, even if you guys are division rivals.
Disclaimer: Comments above are not meant to be taken with a grain of salt.
It would.
He says he wants to be back and not sure why they would let a guy like that walk away when the defense is obviously what needs the most help. And I have heard he would be willing to move to safety in a couple years.
Let's put the 'D' back in Denver
I hope that Baily ends his career in Denver!
Hasn’t he said something about wanting to play with Tebow for the long-term?
"I used to fight the pain, but recently this became clear to me: pain is not my enemy; it is my call to greatness."--Henry Rollins
"Victory belongs to the most persevering." --Napoleon.
I think Bailey is back if we commit to Tebow
He’s had nothing but glowingly positive things to say about him… Keeps saying things like “I want to play with him” and “He’s a winner”
Those are pretty strong words from a guy like Champ…
that would be
worse case scenario for us. We need to sign Bailey! The guy is still in the top 3 CBs, regardless of what pro-bowl voting tells you.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jan 1, 2011 6:12 PM MST up reply actions
I like how you appreciate most of the roster
To a great extent, I think you’re right. This team has enough talent at its core and what it needs is upgrades and continuity within the schemes in use.
On offense, I see you left out Kyle Orton and Dan Gronkowski, who could replace Brandon Graham and Russ Hochstein.
I’m sensing that Orton’s been getting thrown under the bus lately and it isn’t fair to him because of how well he knows this offense and how hard he worked to get to that point. Tebow can learn from him for another year. Although there are plenty of teams who could want to work out a trade for his services, I think the Broncos have no solid backup QB option on the roster, should Tebow suffer an injury that will take him out of the lineup. What happens to the offense when Tebow gets hurt?
I understand that QBs get traded to other teams, but does he have a good trade value? I think he practically destroyed it in weeks 10-12, when trying to play through his injury, like he always does. I commend him for trying to be tough, but this is 3 years in a row that he has gotten hurt mid-season and his performance falls off a cliff, when he tries to play through it. If Denver doesn’t get a good draft pick (3rd round or better,) then I say keep Orton.
As far as Richard Quinn, I doubt that after two years, he has much more to learn from Daniel Graham. As much as I appreciate Graham’s leadership, blocking ability, and understanding of this offense, he is at a point where his on-field contributions are replaceable. We have the Gronk who is showing promise (as a starter caliber player,) Quinn is showing some improvement, and Branson will likely be available. And let’s not forget, that the Broncos could draft a pass-catching TE in Kyle Rudolph next April, if they choose to.
You also left out Spencer Larsen, who I think makes for a great run-blocking FB. Just don’t ask him to carry the rock – LenDale White is a much better option. And should this be too much redundancy at the position, then move Larsen to backup ILB. That’s what he prefers to do anyway.
I love how you stuck up for Buckhalter. In the last few weeks, he has shown the ability that was there in 2009. He is a capable back who happens to be a catching threat as well, when healthy. Back injuries linger. He hurt his back on the first day of TC and had to run behind a porous O-line in the first 8 weeks. I gave him a break and it seems the coaches did the same for him. He is more than capable of returning for another year or two, barring serious injury. In fact, I’d keep him over Lance Ball, if a FA vet comes in (DeAngelo Williams.)
On defense, I’d put Ron Fields on the bubble instead of David Bruton. I see why you did it – there is no one to play NT exclusively, if both JWill and Fields depart. So if no one is available through FA and if Louis Leonard is disappointing, then one of the two big men will need to be retained for another year.
I also see that you forgot to mention Joe Mays and Robert Ayers. I think Mays has the potential to be a starter. If DJ is not traded and allowed to improve (assuming he can learn to shed blockers,) then I’d like to see more of Mays next to him. And Ayers was showing a lot of improvement in the beginning of the season before his foot injury. Not only do I think he is a keeper, but I think he is a good fit on the strong side, with Doom terrorizing QBs on the weak side.
Mario Haggan should be demoted to playing STs, which is his strong suit anyway, as long as Ayers is healthy.
And I appreciate your support for bringing back Dawkins for another season. I think his knee really bothered him this year and is the main reason why he missed some key tackles against the Raiders and Chargers.
And you’re right about the D-line. It’s the middle that’s the problem, not the edges – just like the entire defense.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
Orton's value
Orton is worth more to the Broncos in terms of picks and building the team than keeping him. I’m thinking this was Tim’s point.
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
by BroncoCUbuffs on Jan 1, 2011 12:58 PM MST up reply actions
I agree. I’d like Orton a lot better if he was a 22 year old pass catching TE that serves as Tebow’s 3rd down security blanket.
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
HAHAHA...very funny post McG!
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Spencer Larsen was an oversight on my part...I'd like to see him remain on the roster.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Not if their focus in buidling a team as quickly a possible
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
by BroncoCUbuffs on Jan 1, 2011 1:10 PM MST up reply actions
Good question
If there’s a 2nd or 3rd round pick being offered, then the team can trade him. It’s a risky move relying on Tebow, Brady Quinn and some other QB they can get for cheap. I’m not comfortable with it.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
It isn’t ideal, but one thing I learned this year is that even with a QB putting up big numbers the team could barely win, and the horrible defense was a big reason why. If we can pick up a 2nd or 3rd I would be very happy (not sure if that is realistic or not, I have heard some people say we would only get a 5th rounder)
Let's put the 'D' back in Denver
I've asked my friends who are fans of other teams
And they think 3rd to 5th round is a good value, most thought a 4th was a good deal though.
Orton, Tebow, Quinn, who cares as long as the Broncos win.
4th is more reasonably
Or a player trade.
Orton, Tebow, Quinn, who cares as long as the Broncos win.
Absolutely not
I just think there’s no way someone will give that up for Orton.
Clarification
I’m saying absolutely not that Denver would turn that down. THey just aren’t going to get an offer that good so the question is somewhat irrelevant
Branson, that's who I trying to think of.
He was looking real good in the preseason until he got injured. A little small for a tight end but was catching everything. Could he be back to play this year? I hate to use a draft pick on a TE when we need so much help on defense.
Could Orton have too big a contract to keep him as a back up?
Joe Mays need to be on the field!
I think Branson will be available if the new staff wants him. He was touted as a nice H-back who could be Tebow’s favorite checkdown receiver, if given the chance.
Orton’s contract could be restructured to about $2M / year, with no obligation to honor the life of the contract. Denver would be smart to retain him for at least a year.
Yes I agree on Mays. The run defense screams for his presence.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
I thought Branson was released early in the year.
The QB position is set!
by broncofaninIL on Jan 1, 2011 10:09 PM MST up reply actions
He is on the Falcons Practice Squad and will be a FA in two days.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Welcome
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Letting Graham
go would be a mistake. He’s not the best receiver, that’s a fact but our running game suffered this year and he is still a stud blocking. We do need a good pass catching TE, not sure that is going to happen for Quinn. Really did not see enough of Quinn to form an opinion other than the coaches must know something to not use him very much.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jan 1, 2011 6:17 PM MST up reply actions
I agree that there is a core of players to work with
Earlier in the season when the team was struggling I felt that we were perhaps 3-4 key players away from being a competitive team. I still believe that is about right.
For HC, I’m not really on board with aging “proven guy” movement. The game changes over time and I’d rather have a guy on the way up than the way down. Just because the last talented coordinator hire was aborted prematurely doesn’t mean another who shows promise shouldn’t be considered.
There was an article in the Miami Herald.....
(Sorry, I didn’t keep it), and I think it was a remark by one of the “expert observers” at that paper. The suggestion was that the Fins should give their 1st for Orton who would make them contenders.
I really believe that “fans” around here are undervaluing Orton……
I agree 100%.
I think Orton is a perfect fit for Miami, but I did not include them in my trade beliefs because we already took their 2nd rounder…but hell, for a 1st rounder? Where do I sign up?!?!!?!??
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
I have Orton valued as a 2nd rounder, FYI.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Orton for a 2nd rounder would be a wet dream for this Bronco fan. I hope your right.
What’s Klob worth IYO?
How do you rank Orton, Klob and McNabb since it stands to reason those three will be competing for some of the open QB jobs.
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
Who's Klob? Is he a Swedish clog maker?
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
LOL
I think he means Kevin Kolb.
"All credibility, all good conscience, all evidence of truth come only from the senses." Friedrich Nietzsche
"Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great." Mark Twain
"If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done." Wittgenstein
lol
I think he was the only Swedish QB to ever play in the NFL. Back in the 70’s, I think it was LOL
Tony Robbins calls Tim Tebow for motivational support.
Kolb is Orton...what is the difference???
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Kolb is younger and has a higher ceiling
Orton is definitely the better QB right now…. The difference is that Orton this year in Denver is as good as he’ll ever be. Kolb has the potential to be much better, but there’s also a 50% chance he’ll never even be as good as Orton.
Generally a team would place a higher value on Kolb because of all this.
He also has a large Contract
Kevin Kolb – 4/29/2010: Signed a two-year, $12.25 million contract. The deal, fully guaranteed, included a $10.7 million signing bonus. 2010: $715,000, 2011: $1.392 million, 2012: Free Agent
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Grab that 1st round
pick and run with it. I too believe the market for KO is a 2nd, but teams who feel they are a “good” veteran QB away from a deep playoff push (eg. Minnesota, Miami, perhaps even St. Louis) may go with a 1st if they got into a bidding war.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jan 1, 2011 6:20 PM MST up reply actions
As someone that lives in S Florida, I haven’t seen that article. I have seen several where Miami is looking at a Locker, Mallet or Cam Newton with their 1st round pick.
I called Marshall to the Dolphins in January of last year, but Orton to Miami doesn’t make tsense. Miami will use a #1 pick on a QB and groom him for the job. They won’t give up a high pick (3rd or better) and still use a 1st rounder on a QB.
Now if no QBs are around when Miami is on the clock (circa #15 overall), Orton suddenly makes a lot of sense (but so does Klob).
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
a first for Orton
would be great. They say a sucker IS born every minute, after all.
Tony Robbins calls Tim Tebow for motivational support.
Don't leave out Arizona
There has been much talk down here about him.
Love thyself
Love thy wife
Worship the Broncos!
by AZ BroncosFan on Jan 1, 2011 7:56 PM MST up reply actions
Oh my God...major oversight! Fixed.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
You’d rather see Fields than Ayers? Did you watch Fields last week or this season. I’m far from sold on Ayers, but he has much more upside than Fields. Ayers also plays harder, better and more productive ball than Fields.
Others I don’t care to ever see in a Bronco uniform again would be Dan “good hands” Graham, Lance “CFL” Ball, Richard “false start” Quinn. I’d throw Buckhalter in there. One good game doesn’t make up for several horrible drops/games in 2010.
On D – No more Fields, Goodman, Hill or McBath. Darcel can’t be trusted to stay healthy if we name him the starter.
I really hope Denver keeps Joe Mays around. We need far more nasty on our team and far less Goodman like apathy.
Tim Tebow > Kyle Orton
correct
McBath shows flashes, but I have yet, in two years, to not see him on the injury report. He is on it every week. It pisses me off, really. A lot. These guys gets assloads of money, and they NEVER EVEN TOUCH THE FIELD. Makes no sense to me. The more I think about it, the more I agree. It might be time to cut ties with the kid.
Tony Robbins calls Tim Tebow for motivational support.
I don't get Graham argument
He is the first guy to congratulate teammates on a TD scored is the argument you make for keeping him. In addition, you vaguely mention “tape”. That’s not much of an argument at all. I thought what player does BEFORE the play is blown dead for a TD matter much more. Is he any good in that department any more? Weird that you make this argument.
Get rid of Brady Q....he reminds me why I can't use this pic...
.

I wanted so much to use this pic.
other than that I agree…
Guardian of the Gate to La La Land!
Gonsoulin, Taylor, Wright, Gradishar, Atwater, Davis, and Sharpe...
Why are they not in the Hall...I just don't understand.
I mistakenly did not include Ayers or Joe Mays...my bad.
They both are on my keeper list…I must have been getting tired near the end of writing this post. It looks good now.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
3-4 must be strong up
the middle. Build from the middle out. That means, NT, MLB and SS needs to be drafted. I too like Mays, but we are unsure still of what he will ultimately turn into. Either way you have to draft strong up the middle.
"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."
by rubincarterrocks on Jan 1, 2011 6:24 PM MST reply actions 2 recs
Exactly ruben
I have been preaching this since Al Wilson retired.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Not getting all the concern about a pass-catching TE....
Maybe we watched a different season of football, but the majority of the time, our TE’s were in to help block because the OL was struggling so bad. That really doesn’t allow a TE to show that he can be an effective receiver in the gameplan. In fact, the gameplan and OL play, is the number one reason for why we supposedly NEED a new TE. Dallas Clark wouldn’t have done very well in our gameplan this year.
Graham is solid when he actually gets a chance…the problem is he is so rarely called upon to catch, that when he gets the opportunity, it’s glaringly obvious if he does something wrong. Gronkowski only had a couple of weeks in the offense, but wouldn’t rule him a bust just yet.
We need a defensive makeover this offseason. Wasting a pick on TE makes no sense to me at all. :)
Just my 2 cents!
"Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."
John Adams
Brady Quinn will be gone
Unless he’s willing to dramatically restructure the last year of his contract, which I don’t think is likely. Denver just won’t pay starting QB money for a bad second string QB. I wont be sorry to see him go. Unfortunately, missing picks for the next two drafts will still be an unpleasant reminder of the abysmally foolish trade that brought him here to Denver.
You’ll be remembered here for a while yet McDaniels. :(

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