The 4-3 and Doom

by HBobbyT on Jan 13, 2011 2:23 PM MST

We have a new coach in town, and a lot of people are speculating a return to the 4-3 defense. The question becomes what to do with Elvis Dumervil. An idea I heard Alfred Williams mention a couple weeks ago sounded like the best I've heard regarding a move to the 4-3, but I wanted to see what other people think.

Let me start by saying that big Al is entertaining but I don't typically agree with him on football matters (IE Drafting Cam Newton). Anyways......

Alfred suggested playing Doom at SAM linebacker and putting his hand in the dirt for third down and other obvious passing situations. I also believe that he could be used as a blitzer on early downs and still draw favorable matchups in this role. I'm not really sure about the attributes required to play SAM, so maybe one of the football gurus could fill me in. I believe that at the pro bowl last year he played SAM in the pro bowl base 4-3 defense.

If this were to work I believe you have a starting linebacking crew of Dumervil at Sam, Mays/ Draft Pick/ Free Agent at Mike, and DJ at Will.

Anyways, I really don't know if or how this would work, but it's a suggestion. Let me know what you think.

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Doesn't the SAM linebacker have responibilites for setting the edge in a 4-3?

Or is that only in a 3-4 alignment? I did not think that the SAM linebacker was the usual blitzer in a 4-3. Doom might need to move back to Dend and have a strong, run stuffing linebacker behind him.

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by NavyBSU_fan on Jan 13, 2011 2:31 PM MST reply actions

In a 4-3...

The DE’s are responsible for setting the edge. SAM would not work because the “S” in SAM represents Strong Side, which usually means the TE side of the formation. Thus, the SAM is usually responsible for covering the TE. Doom’s weakness in a 3-4 is pass coverage, he would be exposed should we move him to SAM and ask him to cover Gates, Zach Miller, etc.

by Da1Truth on Jan 13, 2011 3:19 PM MST up reply actions

spot on Da1Truth

Doom will be fine back at end, just look at the production .

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by PaleHorse78 on Jan 13, 2011 4:02 PM MST up reply actions

He’s a better rusher from the right side, not the left. Bad idea. Alfred is a fruitcake.

by ConradA on Jan 13, 2011 2:32 PM MST reply actions

yea Doom is play RDE

i want Ayers, Fairley, Banna/Vickerson, Doom for a dline next year

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by BroncofanfromBoston on Jan 13, 2011 2:39 PM MST reply actions

I'll 2nd that!

If we're ever going to get out of here alive we're going to need some golf shoes.

by MGMarshall on Jan 13, 2011 3:38 PM MST up reply actions

3rd!

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by BroncoMath101 on Jan 13, 2011 4:48 PM MST up reply actions

This is gonna sound crazy

But open trade channels with Houston to see if they’d like to swap Mario Williams for Elvis Doom…

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by CombatChuk on Jan 13, 2011 2:42 PM MST reply actions

I actually was thinking about this

It seems like it would be a mutual beneficial trade were the switch to occur. The only issue might be contractural obligations. I’m not sure how long Mario is under contract for.

by HBobbyT on Jan 13, 2011 3:42 PM MST up reply actions

I hate to say it but we might need to trade him if we go to a 4-3

I love him in the 3-4 but I remember him being a real liability in the 4-3 in 08
Can he make another transition to linebacker in a 4-3, that seems doubtfull.
If we trade him to a 3-4 team we should get a very high value and I hope that’s a proven player and not a draft pick.

by wierdfan on Jan 13, 2011 2:43 PM MST reply actions

In '08 Doom broke his hand in training camp

…and didn’t have Sam Adams and John Engelberger keeping offensive lines from double-teaming him that year. He still had 4.5 sacks, which would be tied for 2nd on the team this year. The previous two years (his first two) he had 8.5 and 12.5 sacks. Sure, he was a bit of a liability in the run game, but he’s a pass rusher first. Dwight Freeney was also a run stopping liability, that’s why Bob Sanders is so important to the Colts. If he puts back on the 15-20 lbs he dropped to be a OLB, he’ll be fine in a 4-3. What’s most important is that Doom will have more than 1 year with the same defensive terminology/coach for the first time in his professional career. Huzzah, Go Broncos!!!

by SoCalBroncsFan on Jan 13, 2011 3:11 PM MST up reply actions

john fox said running a 34 is not a problem when john elway told him he would like to remain in a 3-4

by jag23dj on Jan 13, 2011 2:44 PM MST reply actions

No where have I read that John Elway wants to stay in the 3-4. Your below link also do NOT

reference that about Jonh Elway and does referance John Fox stating “"Not really. It’s semantics," Fox said. "Obviously there are some personnel things that aren’t that deep-seated. Everybody plays under/over, whether you originate out of the 3-4 or 4-3.”
IMO John Fox stays with the 4-3.

by DLMyers on Jan 13, 2011 3:12 PM MST up reply actions

where/when was this said...link?

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by BroncofanfromBoston on Jan 13, 2011 2:50 PM MST reply actions

its a small tidbit .

http://maxdenver.com/blog1/2011/01/12/fox-experience-his-selling-point/

by jag23dj on Jan 13, 2011 2:58 PM MST reply actions

I have two problems with our LB in a 4-3

IMO, Dumervil can NOT play SAM for the definition below reasons.
The strong side linebacker, or Sam Linebacker, is a versatile run and pass coverage backer in a 4-3 defense. He needs to provide strong run support and fill his gap on the run, but he also is required to drop in short zones in both cover 2 and cover 3. At times, he will also play man-to-man coverage on either the tight end or the number two or three receiver.
Dumervil has two weaknesses, run support and pass coverage. SORRY.
Second is DJ in WILL schemes.
The weak side linebacker, or “Will” linebacker, is one of 3 linebackers on a standard defensive crew. Like the other two linebackers (Sam and Mike), he’s primarily concerned with stopping the run. But, he quickly transitions into a pass defender as needed, and often ends up assigned to slot receivers, even more than the Sam.
DJ is very bad at pass coverage. This year he got worse. SORRY
If the Broncos do go to 4-3 defense then these two will have problems.

by DLMyers on Jan 13, 2011 3:05 PM MST reply actions

So will our D-line — except maybe at left DE.

by yibberat on Jan 13, 2011 3:27 PM MST up reply actions

Doom in a 4-3....

I have a close friend who plays in the NFL and has played against the Broncos 2 separate times in the last 4 seasons. He mentioned that their entire game plan (against the old 4-3) was to take advantage of Doom’s size (lack there of) and his desire to rush up-field during run downs. For the record, that team ran for 150+ yards two separate times (both at Mile High) when Doom was the DE in a 4-3.

by Da1Truth on Jan 13, 2011 3:24 PM MST reply actions

Agree with those who say Doom is too small to be a RtDE.

He has found his niche at OLB. DJ is OK at ILB. All we are missing for a pretty good 3-4 is two more starting LB’s and a NT. We have GREAT draft choices in the 2nd/3rd round to get both a starting ILB (Jones or Sturdivant or Marve) and a starting OLB (Houston, Beal) and a NT (Powe/Fua/etc)

Those three would massively improve our run-stopping, our pass-rush, and our line disruption. And drafting Peterson first, we wouldn’t need to worry so much that our LB’s aren’t very good at pass coverage cuz our secondary would be seriously good.

by yibberat on Jan 13, 2011 3:33 PM MST reply actions

First of all, Fox said he wouldn’t mind sticking with a 3-4 if that’s what the Broncos want.
He worked with a 3-4 when he was with the Steelers.

Second of all, a one-gap 3-4 is much closer to a 4-3 from a personell standpoint, than a two-gap 3-4. It’s also easier for 4-3 guys to learn.

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by SlotMachinePlayer on Jan 13, 2011 4:14 PM MST reply actions

We’ve got to relax about Dumervil. He’ll be fine in a 4-3. Playing him at SAM would be silly, and is tantamount to Alfred’s claim that we should take Cam Newton. The only time you would maximize Doom’s value as a SAM would be if you were blitzing, which you can’t do on every single down. What I said before, and I’ll say it again, is that if Doom is having trouble playing the run you can play him in passing downs and substitute a run stuffer on first and second and short. To have a DE who can rush like him on passing situations is still a major asset. There is also a lot you can do in a 4-3. If he can’t set the edge you can cheat the LB over and almost play a 5-2 – which is essentially what we played on running situations this year.

by Rmann on Jan 13, 2011 4:29 PM MST reply actions

You want to pay someone $60 million and be a one down player?

I doubt that happens.

by Da1Truth on Jan 13, 2011 4:36 PM MST up reply actions

Doom's weaknesses

I think playing SAM in a 4-3 might allow Doom to be more effective against the run because he won’t have to set the edge, he just has to get to the ball.

As far as pass coverage is concerned, the party line seems to be that he struggles in that area, but I haven’t seen any data that indicates that or otherwise.

I think that you build a defense around Elvis. A good coordinator could find ways to keep him from being matched up one on one with a tight end. I.E having him play a zone coverage or putting a safety on the tight end. I don’t anticipate in a scheme that features him at SAm he would be manning up too often anyways.

I know this is how Brian Orakpo played his rookie year.

ANyways, I appreciate the spirited discussion. I look forward to more feedback.,

by HBobbyT on Jan 13, 2011 4:43 PM MST reply actions

I'm confused.

Why is it that when Doom has a career year as a pass-rusher in 3-4 does it suddenly get translated as a lack of ability in the 4-3? Is Doom undersized for the 4-3, it sure would appear that is the case. However, the guy put up great numbers while he was a 4-3 end with Shanahan. You can’t say that teams ran all over us because of his style of play in the 4-3, cause teams ran all over us when we played the 3-4 as well. Obviously we needed a coaching fix to really get down to the disconnect. If John Fox installs a great defense and Doom just can’t fit in at DE then we will finally know that he is undersized… but I doubt that to be the case.

So far the best thing I have heard is rotate him in as a pass rusher and keep a run stuffer in for 1st and 2nd. If we were to go that route I’d say we start Ayers on 1st and 2nd (who plays the run well and CAN rush the passer, though not at an elite level yet) and then rotate Doom in on 3rd or other obvious passing downs. I have hope that Doom can be effective in the 4-3 on the line, and I also believe he could learn to be a 4-3 linebacker if he HAD too, but it doesn’t look ideal. If Doom could post solid numbers at RDE under Shanny and 3 different DC’s, than I think he can play well under a consisten John Fox, regardless of defensive scheme.

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by Alexander Wall on Jan 14, 2011 1:37 AM MST reply actions

That was more a response to all comments than the post itself. So don't take it personally. :)

"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes

by Alexander Wall on Jan 14, 2011 1:38 AM MST up reply actions

I’m really just hoping that we keep the 3-4 (highly unlikely unless we bring in Rob Ryan, which is a long shot at best). If we do go back to the 4-3, i’m hoping Doom shows everyone up and really cements his spot in both the pass and run defense, and that Ayers finally shines as well. If we land some big names in the Draft and FA at DTackle and have balanced Doom and breakout Ayers at the Ends… we would have a nightmarish Line.

My only worry is that Doom won’t be able to anchor on specific run plays, he has the speed to keep leverage and set the edge, but for plays that run right over top of him I think he might get blown out of the play. Ayers on the other hand anchors really well AND sets the edge nicely; if Doom could just teach him some nice pass rushing moves Ayers would be a 4 down player.

"It is better to be rougly right than precisely wrong." - John Maynard Keynes

by Alexander Wall on Jan 14, 2011 1:43 AM MST up reply actions