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From The Fan Posts: On Reality, John Fox, Tebow, and Broncos 2.0


I’ve been meaning to put together a post on different subjects for the past couple of weeks but every time I start to write, some kind of life event occurs and I’m stuck sitting on my ideas while dealing with “real world stuff” and other writers here eloquently say what I was thinking. There is, however, one major topic that I have considered since the moment John Fox was hired that hasn’t been heavily touched on yet and has weighed on me the past couple of weeks. Combined with a little more heartburn than normal I’ve had a steady late night diet of bad music, internet articles, writing, and Zantac. I even have these vague memories of Kelly Clarkson that I'm not sure where they came from… At any rate this post is the result of those things and it is a long one, so grab a winecooler or three, turn on some Ryan Star, and forget for a few moments everything you’ve assumed about the Broncos since January 13th, 2011.

Star-divide

I want to stop speculating for a few minutes, well as much as one person can stop speculating during a time of so many unknowns like the Broncos face right now. The Broncos team that steps on the field next August is going to be fundamentally different, yet personnel wise very much the same. As much as some of us may want the Broncos to simply jettison half of their football team and start over fresh, with the reality that is in an uncapped year with a new CBA looming on the horizon, the Broncos are in a situation where it is a very real possibility that we simply will not be able to deal the players that we need to in order to get the players that we so much desire. What we need to do is try and peel away as much of the speculation as we can and lay some kind of factual foundation so that when our Broncos take the field later on this year we’ll have been better prepared for the type of football they will be playing.

 

 

The Broncos will, thankfully, be able to keep things in the factual realm a little interesting in that we will be drafting quite high, we will be making some coaching changes, and we will be making some fundamental changes to both our offense and our defense. We don’t have to speculate too much on these things, because we know that they will happen. Still, just take one look at the list of Fanposts over the past couple of weeks and you will see a ridiculous number of things like mock drafts. Drafts with Tebow, drafts without Tebow, drafts trading up, drafts trading down, drafts not trading, drafts with just CB’s, drafts with only defense, fantasy drafts with your mother, and the MUST-READ-DRAFTS OMG let’s trade Orton for three picks and Eddie Royal for a pro-bowler. It’s speculation at its finest and while I will admit some of them are fun to read, and most of them are extremely educational, they eventually get heaped on to the ever growing pile of speculation that by the end of this off-season will be vaporized in about three weeks of factual news reporting.

I’m not suggesting that speculation is a bad thing. In fact, I would suggest the exact opposite and I will be using a lot of it in this post. However, I do think that it tends to be a fast track to nowheresville when it derails from some kind of factual basis. With the amount of changes the Broncos have been through in the past 4 months it’s not hard to see how so much of what we’ve been able to count on as fans has simply vanished. Now all we have is a bunch of big unknowns. My goal with this post is to simply try and lay down some kind of foundation that we as fans can expect. It has little to do with drafting specific players and much more to do with the fundamentals of football. Sure, this is still speculation, but I think it’s not a far cry from the truth that has been presented to us.

The offseason is an 8-month torture period of almost pure speculation. I think there is a very large part of our population that develops some kind of depression between February and April, when baseball gets started. Why else do you think so many babies are conceived between February and April? Some people say it's because of the cold but no way, these are NFL babies (no speculation here). So if you were born between October and January you think about that for a minute.

I was and still am excited that we hired John Fox. I’m not so excited that he’s the one coach that did worse than McDaniel’s last season, but I’m easily sold on the fact his FO simply gave up on that team and asked him to do an impossible thing with a lousy team. It’s like bringing $20 bucks worth of chips to a poker table in Vegas. You may feel pretty badass sitting at the table with the big boys but you simply can’t compete and no matter how many different kinds of visors you wear you’ll never have the advantage (but this Bud's for you Mr. Low-Stack-Purple-Visor-With-Sunglasses dude because even though you have to look underneath your glasses to see your cards, you are still the most color coordinated man at the table). The Panthers were a $20 team in a high stakes game. They didn't have a chance. I can accept that the Broncos and John Fox are both better off in their respective situations.

However, after listening to the radio non-stop for the past couple of weeks and hearing our local talking heads and some of the national talking heads discuss the future of the Broncos I think that we are beginning to drift into the deep end of the pool of speculation. We are getting hung up on issues like draft number, whether or not Tebow will start, and what to do with Orton and other players that we might be able to deal for new talent. We are getting ahead of ourselves. We need to ask ourselves, what do we know?

We know that there will be a new coaching philosophy

John Fox likes to use the word fundamentals. But what exactly does that mean? If someone were to ask me what the “fundamentals” of football are I would have to say good defense, a strong ground game, and an offense that doesn’t make too many mistakes. If you do those fundamental things well you will win more than 4 games a season. It's what we were taught in high school football, a philosophy which I would know everything about had I not spent my highschool years ripping it up on the basketball court... and by basketball court I obviously mean chessboard. 

Let's Speculate For a Minute

I believe that the Broncos and a lot of NFL teams in general have begun to move past fundamental football and play a new kind of “glamour-ball”. These teams rely on a strong passing attack, a great QB, a ground game that can convert on 3rd and short, and a defense that blitzes like Travis Henry after a baby. Franchises that play this way don’t need a strong defense to keep them in a game, they simply need to score more points than their opponents. These teams aren’t fantastic time managers as they simply don’t have enough of a running game to chew up clock consistently. They take a significant amount of chances down field, they punt and score often (as opposed to grind and move the chains), and the ball changes possession multiple times every quarter. It’s exciting football and honestly it’s the kind of football I enjoy watching the most.  Denver has been this kind of football team the past couple of years. Josh McDaniel’s is the extreme example of a glamour-ball style head coach.

Let’s be honest here for a second, if the Broncos had won more than 8 games this season, if we had a strong reason to believe that we’d be focusing on our defense in the next draft, if Spygate II never happened, and McDaniel’s made more of an effort to draw us as fans in, we’d be extremely excited in the direction our football team was heading under McD. That’s extreme conjecture I know, but I would be excited. The Broncos would be quickly moving along the yellow-brick-road to a record setting, touchdown throwing, deep ball threat team that featured a dynamic quarterback and blitz crazy 3-4 defense. THAT, my friends, is exciting football when done right.

 

John Fox is the anti-McDaniel’s. John Fox is everything glamour-ball is not. He is good defense, good ground game, and an offense that doesn’t make a lot of mistakes. Fundamentals. The question that we as Broncos fans need to really consider is are we ready to accept a team that is going to throw the ball considerably less, run the ball considerably more, and wear defenses down by keeping their offense off the field? This is, without a doubt, the Broncos we are going to be getting next season. Mike Klis of the DP put it this way:

To John Fox, third down and 8 is still a running play.

 

We should begin preparing ourselves now for the fact that the offense that is going to step on the field in August is not going to be the same offense that we sometimes enjoyed last year, regardless of our QB. I can safely say this isn’t speculation, this is simply fact. Broncos glamour-ball is over. It's who John Fox is, and it's why he was hired as our head coach.

We know that we are going to be a gritty team both offensively and defensively and we will be successful at it, or we will be bad at it. That is it.

When John Fox says the Bronco’s are in a similar situation as the Panther’s were before the 2002 season when he became their head coach, he isn’t kidding. Their defense was 31st overall, they had the second pick in the draft, and they were supposedly in an extreme rebuilding stage. Amazingly, John Fox didn’t blow up the entire team but simply added two rookie starters to the defense from the NFL draft that year. I think most of you can guess one of them already. They were Julius Peppers and Will Witherspoon, a DE and LB respectively. With the addition of those two players, under the supervision of John Fox, the Carolina Panthers went defensively went from 31st overall in the league to 2nd overall in the league in one offseason. This is like going from dating the second string cellist in high school to Fergie (because obviously Britney Spears is still #1, hollerback). Time for some real numbers for you stat guys out there. In his rookie year, J. Peppers accumulated this stat line:

Games TOT SOLO AST  PD SACK FF
12 35 28 7 5 12 5

 

Those are impressive numbers for a rookie, especially considering he played in only 12 games. Obviously Julius Peppers was an impact player from his rookie season. Considering that the Broncos are returning Elvis Dumervil next season, we are in a sense getting our Julius Peppers of the draft, without spending a draft pick. I would argue Doom will be more valuable than Peppers was in his rookie year but that is, again, simply conjecture. Still, we can expect that Dumervil will hopefully carry a line at least similar to Peppers during his rookie year.

Will Witherspoon had this stat line:

Games TOT SOLO AST  PD SACK FF
15 71 56 15 5 1.5 1

 

If we choose to utilize the #2 pick of the draft and get a Bowers or a Fairley type player, don’t you think that this kind of stat line is very possible? Not only is it very possibly isn’t it to a certain extent expected? I can already hear you smart naysayers warming up by saying that Doom is not a DE and Fairley and Bowers are not LB’s so the comparisons aren’t fair. My counter to that is… who cares? Two players and a coach made a 29 rank difference for the Panthers. We’ve already got one player and a coach and a 32nd ranked defense. We are just missing that last number and we've got Soduku up, down, sideways, and back across b*tches. On a different note how awesome would it be if the Broncos could pick up Julius Peppers? We could nickname him... wait for it... Orange Julius. Love that so much.

I like, no, I love this about Mr. Fox. If he can take a defense from being 31st in the league all the way up to number 2 in the league by just adding two important players I can only imagine what he can do with our staff of Broncos. I have always believed that the Broncos defense isn’t quite as bad as the numbers suggest. Maybe I’m looking at the world through rose-colored glasses but the problem with the Broncos defense of 2010 to me has always been run protection and the big play. We give up huge chunks of yards at a time, and seemingly always at the most un-opportune time. Consider this. Darren McFadden was a legitimate stud only when he played the Broncos. Yet, McFadden gained little yards and then huge chunks of yards at a time. We couldn’t stop the big play. We literally made his year. Sam Bradford has a shot at rookie of the year because of his performance versus the Broncos, not because his game was especially great, but because he threw his longest passes of the year on us. We couldn’t stop the big play and it killed us all season long.

 

I don’t think that we will necessarily be the #2 defense next season. I definitely don’t expect it. I also don’t care if we are a 3-4 or a 4-3. I think this is a ridiculous argument that gets blown way out of proportion by people that really have zero clue what the difference is outside of what talking heads say and Madden. So what if we switch to a 4-3? What’s the worst that could happen? We could be the #33 defense next year? That said I do expect that our defense will be tougher, will pressure the passer, and not give up the big play nearly as often, either as a 3-4 or a 4-3. I’m definitely looking forward to that aspect of the Denver Broncos. All speculation aside, we can count on the Broncos being more conservative offensively and more brutal defensively. It’s a tradeoff and one that hasn’t been emphasized enough. I do not think that John Fox plans on “rebuilding the Broncos from the ground up” as Ari “Avid Sports Fan” Shapiro of the Huffington Posts suggests. He plans on doing most of the work with the talent we already have here.

We know that John Fox is not monogamous when it comes to Runningbacks

Let’s talk some Knowshon Moreno. I still believe that Moreno is a stud. I watched some of his film in college and I’ve seen what he can do when he is healthy for the Broncos. I will speculate this though, 2011 is a make-it or break-it year for Moreno. He must remain healthy for a significant number of games and he must prove that he can be a consistent contributor. Moreno needs to be conditioning right now. He simply cannot afford another season where he is injured to the point that he carries 10 times or less a game.

Even if Moreno does all these things and comes out next year and busts out a 1K yard season he can still expect to share carries to some degree with another RB. Whether that is Bucky, Ball, or someone else is yet to be determined and I’ll leave that decision up to you mock draft experts. That said, I would be willing to speculate that none of them, Moreno, Bucky, or Ball is the keystone back that D Will was for the Panthers. I do think that Lance Ball is a one-cut back that will be very attractive to Coach Fox but I would not be surprised in the least if the Broncos looked into the FA market for one or more veteran RB’s to accentuate our ballerina types that McDaniel’s offense featured (and I use the word ballerina with all respect. There’s nothing wrong with a Chris Johnson type runner, it simply depends on the system).

Does that mean we can expect DWill to be a Bronco in the future? Who knows.  Runningbacks are a tricky bunch and thousand yard rushers are often the product of a system and less the unique skill of an individual. Obviously there are exceptions to this idea, and they are the truly elite runningbacks in our league.

Bottom line, the Broncos must have at least one, one-thousand yard rusher to be successful next season under John Fox.

I’d argue if we have only one exceptional rusher he must be in the top 5 or better rushers in the league for us to be a competitive. The Broncos have only one debatably exceptional rusher right now. Do you see a breakout 1500 yard season for Moreno next year? Me neither. John Fox’s relationship with runningbacks is a polygamous one. We will get help at the RB slot. Count on it. Mock draft artists, get to work!

In my estimation, this is what we know. This is what I am counting on when I am introduced to the final 2011 Denver Broncos later on this year. Anything can happen in the offseason, including a lockout, so perhaps none of this happens. But if I had to put my money on it, I'd bet that Tiger Woods falls off the bandwagon again, Katy Perry comes out of the closet, the NFL reaches an agreement with the players, and we've got football in the fall.

On Speculation, the CBA, and our QB situation

I'm going to turn to speculation now. I honestly don't have much idea where the talks are at between the players and the NFL in regards to the new CBA, but the word I am hearing is that the owners are in a position of bargaining power and the players are, to an extent, at their mercy. Mike Klis wrote a great article on the future of the CBA. I recommend that you read it if you haven't as it is very telling when we talk about the QB situation in Denver.

The CBA, like the stock market, marriage, and checkers is all about economics. It's the science of scarcity and choice where you give and get and the "winner" is normally the person who gave less and got more. Sounds like the American dream right? In terms of the NFL CBA, the power of  negotiation lies in the hands of the owners, and it doesn't sound like they are going to be the ones on the losing side of the getting or the giving. We do know at least one thing about both the players and the owners and that is

Neither the players nor the owners want to see a lockout happen next year.

That said, the owners will find that the longer they wait until next season begins, the more leverage they will be able to use against the players. Why come to an agreement right now when in another 6 months the situation will be completely different and many players will be much more willing to sign an agreement so long as they get a paycheck? Remember, professional athletes in general live an extremely high income, high consumption lifestyle. You may be shocked to hear that in Major League Baseball if the average player lost his income and attempted to keep his current lifestyle, he would last, on average, only two years before declaring bankruptcy. I'm not suggesting many professional athletes aren't money smart and don't have a nestegg to fall back on, but we must realize that there are a significant number of players that would find themselves in an extremely precarious situation. Remember this song? That will be the story of many NFL players without a consistent paycheck.

The owners and the NFL understand this. Thus, at this point in time I cannot see a new CBA being agreed on until the season is much closer to being underway, and this has incredible implications from the Denver Broncos when it comes to our QB situation.

The QB Question: Orton or Tebow?

Let's assume for now that a CBA is not reached in time and the Broncos are unable to deal Orton for draft picks. After the draft there is really little incentive for the NFL to reach an agreement with the Players Association until much closer to the beginning of the 2011 season and we are looking at the very real possibility that we will be unable to deal Orton at all. Thus, we are kind of stuck.

Here are some numbers to keep in mind. If we keep both Tebow and Orton on our payroll, we are looking at spending 16.5 million dollars on the QB position next season. To put that into perspective Peyton Manning made 14.5 million last year. If we are unable to deal Orton and his contract I would be willing to speculate that we are going to be in for another QB competition for the starting role next season. If we are paying him, we've got to at least consider playing him, even in this new run-heavy offense.

Orton has made it very clear he doesn't want to be Tebow's backup, but if he loses out to Tebow in training camp he may not have any choice. Don't forget, he no longer has a year on Tebow in an offensive system. All QB's are starting on the same level this time. He may not have any choice as it is if the Broncos decide that right now is the time to start developing Tebow and building an offense around his skillsets. That decision comes down to Mr. John Fox and his staff.

Here’s where things get sticky. Everything that John Fox is about is everything but the QB, which is almost exactly opposite of everything the Broncos have been about for the past few years. Let’s get real here. John Fox wants a team that can win with an average to below average QB. Can you see this? It is simply the truth. If John Fox had everything he wanted… and an explosive offense his teams would probably never lose a game and cost as much as the Yankee payroll or a Kardashian wedding. They’d also be a fantasy. Football is also all about economics. No team can have it all at once. No team has a budget that stretches to infinity and the perfect season is always a Disney movie starring Denzel Washington or Emilio Estevez. Trade-offs must be made in every real-life decision. Hell, even our head coach decision was a trade-off. MHR and Bronco fans, when it comes down to economics, considering the pedigree of John Fox and why the Broncos hired him where do you think our money is going next season? Defense and runners. It’s simple. It’s money. It’s economics. It’s John Fox.

So what does that mean for Tebow? If you are an Orton fan reading, you should know that I respect your opinion and I respect the work that Orton has put into this team but I think the cards are stacked against him in this case. A conservative offense is exactly the kind of offense that Tebow needs to develop his skills. Orton needs to be in a pass-happy offense to reach the next step in his career. Under John Fox, Orton cannot hope to have the opportunity to have a season like he did this year. Whereas Tim Tebow needs to have a relatively mistake free year to be successful, Kyle Orton needs an All-Star year to move his career forward. I am a believer that Tim Tebow has been our guy from the moment he stepped onto the field at the Coliseum. Remember remember the 19th of December.

Now it is up to John Fox. Does he stick with the veteran or does he play the rookie? If I thought that Orton would outwork Tebow in the offseason I might be concerned about the starting QB next year, but if there is one thing I can feel confident in saying, it's that there is not a single Bronco that is going to work harder to be successful under John Fox's new system than Tim Tebow.

Fox could literally say that the starting QB is going to be decided on the winner of a Mortal Kombat match and does anyone doubt that Tebow would get so good he'd button smash a Johnny Cage fatality on Orton's Kano in about thirty seconds? KO, anyone?

Does that make me a fanatic for respecting a guy for his work ethic? Am I an anti-Orton guy because I simply don't think he can rise to the work level Tebow is going to set? If so, well then so be it. I have a lot of respect for Orton and what he did for this Broncos organization, but the team is moving forward and in a direction that is counter-productive for his particular skillset.

So what do we know? We know that the Broncos are going to be big D. They are going to run. They are going back to fundamental football.

When we welcome the starting roster of the 2011 Denver Broncos to Mile High, they will be a familiar team playing a football style we won't always recognize. They will be Broncos 2.0. I say bring it on.

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 237 comments  |  51 recs  | 

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Rec'd

I rarely post a comment just to give praise but i had to hear. Well thought out and great writing. Good job!

When i saw that Xanders was being retained, I knew it was because the Broncos plan on building off of what McD left us and not completely rebuild. Will it work, who knows but Fox’s past shows he knows how to do it. We just need the final pieces.

And now for something completely different

by AlbertaBronc on Jan 20, 2011 2:14 PM MST reply actions  

Meant here, not hear

Proof reading is for the weak

And now for something completely different

by AlbertaBronc on Jan 20, 2011 2:15 PM MST reply actions  

Oh man

You should have said “week”!!!

by CamboBronco on Jan 21, 2011 7:00 AM MST up reply actions  

Awesome post man

done very well – rec’d.

"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."

by PaleHorse78 on Jan 20, 2011 2:29 PM MST reply actions  

Amazing!

Nice piece of work here BroncoPH! Some much needed grounded clarity in this lately volatile MHR environment. Rec’d

by eastCOrange&Blue on Jan 20, 2011 2:53 PM MST reply actions  

Very different kind of post. Great Rec'd

Thought provoking and informative. Specially the position we may be in with Orton You said in so many words that Fox will be doing more with what we already have on the roster. I wonder if that’s why Studesville will be our running backs coach when Skipper was a huge part of Fox’s running game and his RB coach in Carolina. Specially teaming with our new OL coachgman Magazu.

by McManJoe on Jan 20, 2011 3:00 PM MST reply actions  

I like him already

he’s so much better than that washed up O-Line staff McD put together.

"When Tim Tebow does pushups, he's not pushing himself up, he's pushing the world down."

"Gear down there big shifter This is the "No Bull" review man…" a total Lebowski-esque one liner from Sadaraine, whether he realizes it or not - comedic gold.

by PaleHorse78 on Jan 20, 2011 3:06 PM MST up reply actions  

I reality like this post.

Thanks for the info on J.P. and W.W. Lets hope history repeats its self with John Fox and our defense.

by Downunder Thunder on Jan 20, 2011 3:05 PM MST reply actions  

Awesome article BroncoPH and Rec'd!

I agree with you that fundamentals is the answer and Glamor-ball can be fun but it has it’s draw backs. I do like a little glitter on my woman’s dress but not a lot. Just enough to make it ‘sexy’! And, I don’t even care if she wears highheel sneakers, because you never know when you might have to fight…

One point you didn’t highlight on is, our existing D Linemen…This is a puzzle that only Fox&Co will have to figure out because after all we only have conjecture or opinions of what needs or should be done. Marcus Thomas was drafted in Shanahan’s 4/3 defense draft way back when and has played fairly well in Nolan’s 3/4 (I say Nolan’s because that’s where it got started). What if looking through Fox’s defensive minded eye he see’s a player who might respond more under his guidance? What then? I tell you what then, we have a DT without acquiring one in FA or draft…

The same with Kevin Vickerson. If Fox sees a player in him we have another DT. I know, I know, the suspence is killing us and the unknown (right now) is bewildering.

Might this have been said in Fox’s interview? Speculating: “What the hell did you let McDaniels get rid of Jarvis Moss for”!?! “Do you realize what he just did”! Boy, I would love to be iin the room with them during that interview…

The question of Dumervil and Ayers has been a topic of late since we are headed in a new direction of scheme. What if Fox thinks Ayers would be a stud in a 4/3 and Doom not so much? Would it hurt many on here who feel Doom is a franchise player and wouldn’t want to see him traded? I would say, WTF and hope Fox know’s what he’s doing. But if Fox wanted a taller rangier Julius Peppers type play in Doom’s stead then I guess we’ll get over it, right?

I’m with you on Orton and I believe his days are numbered in Denver. Tebow wasn’t drafted in the first rd to carry a clipboard for very long and as we witnessed, Tebow can handle himself on the field of giants without making to many mistakes, and he is “raw” and developing there is no doubt about that…Tebow=Broncos!

13-3 Baby!!! Until we ain’t!

by bfree2bronc on Jan 20, 2011 3:37 PM MST reply actions  

Vickerson and Bannan

began to look more and more like good 4-3 DT candidates to me as the year went on this year. I believe both are better suited for that D and both are players. While our D was a “Hoover” at best this year, there are some quality players on the line who will be a good foundation. Marcus Thomas began to look more and more like the better of our interior lineman as the year went on. I’m anxious to see how he would do as a DT in the 4-3.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 8:49 AM MST up reply actions  

Rec'd for more reasons than I can count

Your comments about the Broncos making Bradford and McFadden’s year is disheartening, but pretty much par for the course. I’m not exactly sure what snake has the Broncos ankle always in sight, but over the history of the club, we’ve been the victim of some huge days and some huge plays. Just to name the few I know of off the top of my head:

The longest punt in NFL history is 98 yards, punted by the Jets against the Broncos.

The most recent incarnation of the 99-yard TD run was by Ahman Green against the Broncos.

Before Adrian Peterson relieved our defense of this “honor”, Corey Dillon used us as his treadmill to the single game rushing record.

And the oddest one that just makes me wonder what we ever did to the football gods: several years ago I started noticing that very few kickers ever missed FGs against Denver, home or road. I wrote to Adam Schefter when he was writing for the post asking if opposing kicker pct was a stat that was kept by the NFL. He actually took time to dig for this and discover that from 1985-2003 (when I wrote to him), the Broncos opponants’ kickers had the highest combined FG pct in the NFL against the Broncos as a team by more than 10 percent over the next team back. For 18 years, opposing kickers were converting over 90% of their kicks against the Broncos. Spooky.

by improv88 on Jan 20, 2011 3:43 PM MST reply actions  

Alot of that

has to do with the thin air in Denver. I always hate when it comes down to a FG, because teams can make some pretty long ones here at mile high

by Calikula on Jan 20, 2011 5:51 PM MST up reply actions  

Remember, "length" isn't everything...

needs to be straight too. Does the altitude increase the left/right factor?

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 8:51 AM MST up reply actions  

yes it does

less air means the spin will “bite” less than in thicker air, so it won’t curve as much, etc.

It might be/likely is a minor effect, but it theoretically could impact the curve of spinning objects.

That said, studies of the physics of the air etc. almost universally say altitude and air density are likely to have small/insignificant impacts on performance.

I think Denver is just wierd… FootballOutsiders has 3 weather adjustments built into their stats: Outside, Dome, and Denver…. whether it is alitude, thin air, lack of humidity, or whatever, but Denver is just odd.

It may also be something we aren’t even consiering… for instance, for the Rockies discovered the humidor and keeping the balls moist basically leveled the playing field from what before had been completely whacky pitching results….

But the other side of this is it may all be psychological… players think it has an impact, and therefore it does.

by cjfarls on Jan 21, 2011 10:02 AM MST up reply actions  

I particularly agree with

the psychological side of it. That may be the biggest aspect of it all. That plus the helium we put in the balls…

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 6:06 PM MST up reply actions  

I particularly agree with

the psychological side of it. That may be the biggest aspect of it all, that plus the helium we put in the balls…

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 6:07 PM MST up reply actions  

Lol

yes, that damn helium

by Calikula on Jan 23, 2011 9:21 AM MST up reply actions  

It all so has to do with...

special teams units which haven’t been able to block or deflect field goal attempts since Louie Wright played.

On the other hand, it seems as though very few teams block field goal attempts anymore. But, the fact remains our so-called special teams aren’t very special.

by Pinkster on Jan 21, 2011 10:28 AM MST up reply actions  

Across the league the kicking game has gotten

very good. 40 yds and in is pretty automatic it seems for most kickers a great deal of them are hitting around an 80% clip. I for one think its time to adjust a few things…narrow the goal posts, kick-off from the 25 instead of the 30, etc.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 6:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Outstanding analysis, commentary and style Ph !! rec'd

Enjoyed this article as much or more than any so far this year. Well done sir!

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 20, 2011 4:01 PM MST reply actions  

Loved the article but I only have one thing to say

Katy Perry is not a lesbian

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Jan 20, 2011 4:46 PM MST reply actions  

I hope not

Dear Santa- All I want for Christmas is a Stud NT and David Harris- Thank you!

Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!

"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown

by Jon Tollerud on Jan 20, 2011 9:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Peyton Hillis

speaking of coming out of the closet, has anyone ever seen pictures of Peyton Hillis in the gay-oriented weight lifting magazines other than me?

I’m not saying Peyton is gay and I really could care less one way or the other, but he sure does look weird with all that eye shadow and mascara.

by Pinkster on Jan 21, 2011 10:31 AM MST up reply actions  

Are you kidding me?

I’ve never even seen a gay oriented weight lifting magazine, let alone knew they existed. Are you a subscriber (not that there is anything wrong with that)? :D

by Shurakair on Jan 21, 2011 11:49 AM MST up reply actions  

Muscle and Fitness Magazine

I teach functional, athletic movement and martial arts. I read a variety of ‘muscle mags’ to see what’s going on with current thought.

Peyton posed during his rookie year. You can find big buzz on the Internet from the all of the Arkansas fans when he was featured. They couldn’t believe it. Have never read so much red-necked homophobia in my life.

But, as I said, who cares. If 5% to 10% of males across the U.S. are gay, then there is a comparable percentage in the NFL (though they never admit to it).

by Pinkster on Jan 21, 2011 8:14 PM MST up reply actions  

Just chasing this rabbit

I think its been rumored that Hillis was shipped out for hitting on McD’s wife. Perhaps it wasn’t his wife he hit on!

by Shurakair on Jan 21, 2011 11:54 AM MST up reply actions  

woah lol

this is seriously funny

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:29 AM MST up reply actions  

Right on bro.

This deserves many, many rec’s, of which I can only account for one, sadly. This has to be the most well thought out and reasoned post that I’ve ever read on MHR, period. An excellent piece of work, sir.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 20, 2011 4:47 PM MST reply actions  

Great, great article

Especially about Fox’s coaching style. Tebow won’t be airing it out next season the way we’ve gotten used to the past two seasons, he doesn’t have the same big-throw playbook McD did, but he will try and win games running the ball and with defense. Quarterback isn’t the most important position to the man, he builds teams to win, which is what we need, a good TEAM.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 20, 2011 5:11 PM MST reply actions  

Fully agree max. I'll take boring, winning football

any day. When Orton was throwing for crazy yards this year and we were losing it was not very exciting football for me. What makes football exciting is winning. Some of the most exciting football I’ve experienced was with Morton, Moses, et, al. It was conservative ball with the occasional deep ball but it was winning ball.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 8:57 AM MST up reply actions  

Fox knows how to win boring

This is about team, Elway played some of his most conservative, safe football in those Super Bowl years, and played as a member of the team, we need a complete team to get back to those years, and Fox seems to think that way as well.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 21, 2011 1:07 PM MST up reply actions  

+1!

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 5:59 PM MST up reply actions  

Awesome article, well thought and provoking - rec'd

I've been bleedin' orange and blue since Floyd Little in '71-'72 and will 'til the day I die!
Bring back the Orange Crush!

by WyoBronco on Jan 20, 2011 5:24 PM MST reply actions  

Good write up

The most logical approach to the direction the Broncos will most likely take. This should be in the DP. Rec’d friend

by Calikula on Jan 20, 2011 5:52 PM MST reply actions  

since McCoy is being retained

dont you think he’ll run an offense similar to McD’s?

by kadenp on Jan 20, 2011 6:39 PM MST reply actions  

If I remember, he was with Fox for several years as well.

Let's put the 'D' back in Denver

by plainview88 on Jan 20, 2011 6:42 PM MST up reply actions  

yes.

i understand that but will fox run much of the offense at all? if he leaves it up to mccoy dont you think he’d just keep something similar to the last scheme.

by kadenp on Jan 20, 2011 6:49 PM MST up reply actions  

We saw

a glimpse of his offense in the last 3 games. I liked what I saw once he started taking chances.

by Calikula on Jan 20, 2011 7:18 PM MST up reply actions  

This is what I hope will hapen...

McCoy will create an offense around Tim Tebow (user friendly) and then broaden it as he develops…Much like Bill /walsh did with Montana and Young…

by bfree2bronc on Jan 20, 2011 7:24 PM MST up reply actions  

Nice job my man...awesome!

FIRE JOE ELLIS!

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!

"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"

Harv Neptune.

by boydy2669 on Jan 20, 2011 7:26 PM MST reply actions  

I believe you got this wrong:
Whereas Tim Tebow needs to have a relatively mistake free year to be successful, Kyle Orton needs an All-Star year to move his career forward.

Kyle Orton needs to be completely mistake free in order to be successful, while Tim Tebow has proven he can make mistakes and OVERCOME them. This is why Orton will not be starting next year for the Broncos, no matter what.

Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.

The artist formerly known as ZAPPA

by Tim Lynch on Jan 20, 2011 7:26 PM MST reply actions  

Tim

That is a bold statement

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 20, 2011 8:45 PM MST up reply actions  

a bit of different perspective

I agree that Tim Tebow has SHOWN he can make mistakes and overcome them. He provided fans with excitement in a low excitement football season. Clearly the Tebow games created TONS more excitement that anything else in 2010 season. Excitement does create $ which Bowlen likes. Fast forward to 2011season… will fans, and more importantly the offensive coaches, feel as good about the mistakes that Tebow MIGHT make that may not always result in positive plays. If as we all hope that the Broncos are more succesful and some of Tebow’s freelancing result in negative plays then I feel safe in saying McCoy and Fow will not be happy. The law of averages lead me to feel that the more Tebow freelances that greater the risk of negative plays. Give Tebow a conservative and successful offense then he will be more successful and this might even be true (maybe a little less) for Orton at QB . Bronco’s offense will be more Fox than McDaniel in 2011 (my opinion.)

by nh_bronco on Jan 21, 2011 8:55 AM MST up reply actions  

I can live with some mistakes by a 2nd year player who shows

progress and a dynamic hope for the future over the mistakes by a 7 yr. vet who has shown us his best and we still lost miserably. Tebow actually is at his best right now when things do break down and he simply needed to use his superior athleticism and competitiveness to make something positive happen. The only question I have for TT is will he be like Elway or Plummer? Both were effective improvising but JE was (get ready for the most obvious statement of the century) much better than Plummer at not choking at critical junctures. I loved Plummer, but no other QB that we’ve had in the past 45 yrs. (my data sample) has been more frustrating to me. I think it had to do with the wide swings between his glorious plays to be followed by the drive killing bone-headed throw, so much unrealized potential. The choke factor is so critical and I believe TT is not a choker, that is, his likelihood of making something positive happen when things do break down actually is a positive v. Orton. There is something happening between the ears of TT that does not happen for Orton in those circumstances. Maybe something happens in the chest cavity for TT also…. either way, it may not be quantifiable but it certainly exists.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 9:18 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

between the ears and in the chest cavity

You’re right! TT has more hair and maybe his eyes twitch more than KO (they both have hair and two eyes) and maybe TT’s heart is in better shape and may not beat as fast even under stress than KO. Both have a heart and both are still alive. Sorry, couldn’t resist. I’ll give TT the edge in what they look like & act like as they leave the field. TT shows more emotion (a + in my book). When do the fundamnetal QB skills catch up with TT’s intangibles (even I have to agree with his intangibles)? That is when I climb aboard the TT bandwagon. RAW is TT but KO maybe LACKLUSTER. To be honest the exuberance of the TT supporters, even in the face of objective crtiticisms of TT makes me want to be luke warm about TT than I should be. It is the “irrational” TT supporter NOT TT himself that clouds my opinion. I’ve been a bronco from day 1 of the franchise (lived in Arvada back then) and I’ll be one from today on as well, TT or KO or ??? at QB.

by nh_bronco on Jan 21, 2011 12:32 PM MST up reply actions  

nh... well said and I'm right

there with you. I’ve got rose-colored glasses when it comes to the Broncs, I confess that. I tend to jump on the bandwagon quickly for new guys and expect great things. TT was an easy buy-in for me. There was something I saw a couple of weeks ago that made me become a complete true believer though. One of the posters had done a video showing Orton making throws and then showing Tebows passes. Tebow looked horrible (technique-wise) compared to Orton. Big wind-up, slower release, etc…you know all the complaints. But TT still completed his passes! He still moved the team! Sometimes athletes come down the pike that defy the stat sheets and “expert” assessments. Steve Young was just like that, look at his career passing percentage though, excellent. Even our hallowed John Elway was far from the beautiful passer in his first 5-6 years. I used to go nuts when he would miss that soft touch pass, or couldn’t drop it over the linebacker. But he got better in those areas of his game, Tebow will too. I’ve just become convinced that he’s a winner, at any cost, his teammates seem to feel that also. I’d put money that he will eventually be remembered as our 2nd best QB of all time. IMHO

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 5:58 PM MST up reply actions  

Excellent article BroncoPH...

Funny, insightful, and right on target concerning the 2011 Broncos. Rec’d big time.

by Rob Burson on Jan 20, 2011 7:48 PM MST reply actions  

Long winded and rambling, but...

The following line had me roflmao :

 “It’s what we were taught in high school football, a philosophy which I would know everything about had I not spent my highschool years ripping it up on the basketball court… and by basketball court I obviously mean chessboard.”

Thanks for the detailed post and the mighty chuckle your humor brought me…:)

by MoB.DeadMeat on Jan 20, 2011 8:20 PM MST reply actions  

Nice read.

You make very good points! I will have to read it more in depth later when the kids get to bed.

by swg777 on Jan 20, 2011 8:47 PM MST reply actions  

I think too many are forgetting that Orton was on a record-shattering pace

with almost no running game (1.7 YPA), a last place defense, and a revolving-door O-line. I don’t know how much of a skillset you want, but what he did went far past “serviceable.”

Orton will not outwork Tebow this offseason. No one will outwork Tebow. But Orton won’t have to. He is a far better passer and has far more experience. Three games do not comprise experience. Reading defenses, checking down, making decisions on the fly, beating defenses designed specifically to stop the QB’s strengths . . . those are things that come in regular game experience.

If the Broncos can manage a halfway decent running game and defense, they will win some games next year. They will win more of them with Orton than they will with Tebow. Yes, Tebow has more talent in some areas (but not in passing and playing in the pocket), but Orton has refined them. That is the difference.

Both Fox and McCoy have made it clear they will put the best 11 men on the field on each side of the LOS, regardless of how long they’ve been in the league, where they were drafted, what their salary is, or how good of friends they are. Their objective is to win games, and they do that with those who have won the competition at their respective positions.

If Orton is retained — and I’m beginning to think that the Broncos are seriously considering that — I expect Orton to be the starter next year. So does Orton. That may be the difference right there. Tebow has an admirable level of energy and enthusiasm, but Orton just seems to expect it.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 20, 2011 9:34 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

I don't think Orton can just expect to start

He end up as our starter but it’s not a right. He’s going to have to earn it…

We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!

by SSinSD on Jan 20, 2011 9:39 PM MST up reply actions  

I mean he "may" end up as our starter... ooops

We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!

by SSinSD on Jan 20, 2011 9:40 PM MST up reply actions  

Of course he's going to earn it . . .

but one of the essentials of success is expectancy. To the winners, losing is not part of their vocabulary. I believe Orton was misunderstood when he said that if he were here next year he expected to be the starter. He knows he is going to have to compete. He has had to compete for the position his entire career. Why would this seem daunting to him? He has always won it. He competes his butt off when he competes — so does his opponent — but he just expects to come out on top. That is the difference.

Now, what probably will follow this comment of mine is someone pointing out “Orton’s” 4-9 (de facto) record this last year. Well, that was the team’s record. If you look back past the last two games (which he played with serious rib injuries on both sides), Orton won most of his battles — as I said, he was on a record-shattering pace.

So he will go into this next year with another battle. Will he win? We’ll see . . . but, in my opinion, he will. As I said, he has experience, and he just simply expects to win . . .
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 20, 2011 9:49 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Miscalculated the W-L record when Orton was playing. It was 3-10, not 4-9.
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 20, 2011 9:53 PM MST up reply actions  

Fox and McCoy will have lost it if Orton starts...this is a rebuilding team....

And its the perfect time to play Tebow, as it lets the WHOLE team develop together. My head tells me that what we saw from Orton last year is as good as it will ever get. He is not a fit fro what Fox did in Carolina (that relied on a gritty, gutsy QB with mobility and not a pure pocket guy like Kyle is) and he needs to go to a team that is WCO style with soldi run game and big O line (see Minnesota).
I am hoping that the Kyle Orton experiment is done on Denver…for all of us, but for Kyle as well.

FIRE JOE ELLIS!

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!

"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"

Harv Neptune.

by boydy2669 on Jan 21, 2011 5:08 AM MST up reply actions  

Delhomme... mobility?

A little bit in his early years, but its not like he was a wheels guy… Orton reminds me much more Delhomme than TT does, so if Carolina-precedant is what you think that is what Fox is looking for, then I’d say Orton is likely to beat out TT.

I also don’t believe Fox and McCoy see this as a “rebulding” team. It may be, but I don’t think that has any impact on who you actually play, etc. It may play into personnel decisions, etc., but they will try to win as many games as possible, and if Orton gives the best chance, that is what they will do.

That said, I’d be very surprised if Orton started at the beginning fo the season next year. TT showed enough in his few starts that the job is his to lose… He’ll be given every opportunity to show he’s the long-term future of this franchise… With TT’s potential, Orton’s best value may be as trade material… all depends on what other folks offer.

But if TT struggles in the preseason/practice and Orton plays like he did early season 2010, don’t be shocked to see Orton lining up behind center sooner than later.

by cjfarls on Jan 21, 2011 10:29 AM MST up reply actions  

It definitely was not mobility that Fox admired in Delhomme

He said repeatedly that it was Jakes leadership and toughness that he most admired.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 21, 2011 12:10 PM MST up reply actions  

Really?

So you saw Orton with no running game, an O-line full of matadores, and a last place defense, and you think you have seen as good as it gets? Seriously? You don’t think that Orton could do better with a decent running game and better protection from the O-line? You don’t think his W-L would improve with a halfway decent defense?

Boydy, I have a lot of respect for you, but your comment amazes me.

But even if that is Orton’s best, isn’t a record-shattering pace, #1 in 40+ yards, #3 in 30-40 yards, 63% comp, 96.0 QBR, and 7.8 YPA (before his rib injuries) pretty damned good?

And Fox relied on a mobile QB? Jake Delhomme? Mobile? Boydy, Orton, when healthy is more mobile that Jake is — not to mention having a stronger arm.

As far as what you are hoping, I would rather hear that you are hoping for more wins next year. Shipping Orton out of town will not bring on those wins. Improving the defense will do that. I believe the running game will improve, and the O-line finally seemed to start gelling in the final three games. Even the defense started to pick it up a little. (It was good that Tebow enjoyed all these things that Orton didn’t have all year, wasn’t it?)

So I fully expect the Broncos to be much better next year. And Fox has made it clear he doesn’t want to “rebuild.” He wants to win. And that is why he, along with McCoy, have categorically stated that competition will bear out who starts at every position, including quarterback.
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 21, 2011 11:55 AM MST up reply actions  

Hmmm I definitely wouldn't say KO is more mobile than Jake

It’s kind of like asking is a snail faster that a worm.. As my old football coach used to say " neither one of these guys could run out of sight in 2 days".

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 21, 2011 12:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Maybe that is because you have not watched Orton . . .

I have seen him run. No, he’s not Fran Tarkenton, but I have seen him outrun linebackers around the flank. I have seen him take it up the middle for 10-12 yards and first downs — he did it several times this last year.

Kyle will never be known as a scrambler, true. But he is not the statue that you and several others around here seem to earnestly desire to make him out to be . . .

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 21, 2011 12:17 PM MST up reply actions  

Uhm

remember the Arizona game when he got chased down by a line man and was forced a fumble at the wrong end of the field? Because I do. KO is as slow as they come

by Calikula on Jan 21, 2011 2:29 PM MST up reply actions  

He has outran linebackers

But he’s also been chased down by lineman. The Arizona game, he was playing injured, and during that run wasn’t going very fast. Orton is no speed demon, heck he’s pretty slow, but this season he did get away from linebackers.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 21, 2011 2:59 PM MST up reply actions  

Exactly . . .

As I said, the beat writers reported that Kyle had trouble even running. That would portend to pretty slow running, no? But Kyle has gotten away from linebackers all his career, except during the 1½ years he was playing on high ankle sprains and, of course, with those rib injures. I’m not saying he’s any kind of speed demon — he will never be — but he’s not the statue many like to claim.
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 21, 2011 4:25 PM MST up reply actions  

On the contrary I've watched every down Orton has played as a QB for Denver

As well as most of Jakes plays in Carolina as well. They are remarkably similar when healthy. I’ve seen them both make plays with their feet but it’s painful to watch. I do think Orton has improved his ability to slide in the pocket though thanks to McD. As for KO outrunning linebackers, sorry but I’d have to see it to believe it. Name the game and the drive and i’ll check it out. Keep in mind there’s a difference between avoiding a linebacker and outrunning one.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 21, 2011 10:50 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks Asinsoin

I dont remember Orton outrunning LBs. But if I see it, then I’ll be the first to admit I was wrong

by Calikula on Jan 23, 2011 9:25 AM MST up reply actions  

an O-line full of matadores

I love that. It sucks cause it’s true. but funny, very funny :D

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 21, 2011 5:09 PM MST up reply actions  

+1 and Rec

I really don’t understand the low opinions of Orton. The team had no running game, a revolving door O-line, and a pathetic excuse of a defense, and the W-L is attributed to him.

The beat writers knew what was going on. They reported that Orton could barely run. He had severe rib injuries on both sides. That is why Tebow played. And, regardless of the “Tebow Time” mantra being parroted throughout the fanbase, neither Fox nor McCoy will commit to Tebow’s starting this next year. They will say only that Tebow has a lot of work to do, and that competition will decide the starter.

McDaniels was asked what he liked about Orton. McDaniels responded that Orton was a leader, accurate, and had a stronger arm than people think. Take whatever opinion of McDaniels you want, but McDaniels spent every single practice day with both Orton and Tebow, and whom did he start all year? And did not Orton respond with Pro Bowl level play until he suffered his rib injuries?

We can try to will Orton out and Tebow in all we want, but what will in fact happen is what they decide after they have seen them compete on the field, if Orton is still here, of course. And if they are smart, it would seem Orton will be.
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 21, 2011 12:33 PM MST up reply actions  

rec'd Hoopforia

I typed my fingers raw for three days over this. My points are made and everyone knows how I feel. Thanks for making a very solid post and good points.

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 21, 2011 5:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Orton may expect to start but....

Tebow expects to WIN !!! and therein lies the rub.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 21, 2011 9:20 AM MST up reply actions  

And you don't think Orton expects to win?

This may have escaped you, but before he came to the Denver Broncos wasteland, Orton was one of the winningest QBs in the league, and he had the best record at home.

Tebow has played three (3) regular season games. Those who understand Orton can win base it on what is of record. Those who believe Tebow can achieve the same winning level base it on unfounded hope, or what he did in college, which is not the NFL.

Comparing the two at this stage is ludicrous.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 21, 2011 12:13 PM MST up reply actions  

Great post

I like you points about both Orton and Tebow.

by wiebrod on Jan 22, 2011 7:50 AM MST up reply actions  

hmm orton wins in chicago

where they have a defense, but then mysteriously loses in denver, where we don’t have one. hmm. time to get scoob and the gang and grab the mystery machine. and case in point, orton can do nothing without the support of the rest of his team. he can not make things happen on his own. good post asinsoin. rec’d.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 23, 2011 11:31 PM MST up reply actions  

great point

what would scooby do? Be do?

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 24, 2011 9:37 AM MST up reply actions  

That is another myth

That Orton won’t win games. After such games as the Dallas and NE games last year and the way he came back against St. Louis, having passed for TDs in the fourth quarter (the Broncos still lost, but that was three TDs), I have to conclude that he can win the games.

But what you mentioned kind of exposes a paradox: If two seasons are not enough to establish Orton as a winning QB, then why is it so fashionable to hold the 3-10 record against him?
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:54 PM MST up reply actions  

Ok then he's 11-18 over 2 years if that makes you feel better.

The St Louis game is actually a textbook example of Orton’s norm so I’m glad you brought it up. When we were down 3 scores and the Rams were in 3 deep zone Orton looked awesome. He took what the D gave him masterfully and brought us back to within 1 TD. But then what happened AZ? I remember 2 straight drives with the game on the line and the D tightened up into either press coverage or man coverage where Orton either under threw his receiver or just choked in the pocket and got sacked. This was actually a very common theme over the last 10 games last year and 13 this year.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 24, 2011 6:29 PM MST up reply actions  

You should have made an honest effort to analyze that last drive

like I did. Yes, Orton masterfully did what you will rarely see anywhere: He threw for three TDs in the
fourth quarter.

And then came that last drive. The first pass, IIRC, Graham dropped. the second was an incompletion, a misfire by Kyle. On the third, Harris whiffed his block, and Long came around and sacked Kyle from behind. And then on fourth down, Long blew through Harris again and caught Kyle’s arm as he was throwing.

That is what happened.

And Kyle is not 11-18 over the last two years. The Broncos, with their pathetic defense and no running game, are 11-18 over the last two years. Not that Kyle didn’t make his mistakes. He surely did. But this is a bad Broncos team. Bad teams lose.

Nonetheless, if Kyle’s first two years of being one of the winningest QBs in the league are not enough, then the last two years are not enough, either.

I can’t get over this crap. If the team wins, it is the defense or whatever who did it. If they lose, Kyle is the one who did it. Sometimes these boards wreak of hypocrisy. I hope there are still a few out there who can see through it . . .

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 7:52 PM MST up reply actions  

Ease up big fella...

I’ve defended Orton and given him his props when and where they’re due. It’s not hypocrisy , it’s perspective. Just as you are entitled to believe that Orton was one of the winningest QB’s in the league in Chicago (which factually isn’t true unless you greatly expand the definition) others are entitled to believe that Orton chokes under pressure. It’s just opinion man, get off of your hypocritical nonsense.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 24, 2011 8:10 PM MST up reply actions  

gee

where would you get the idea that orton chokes under pressure, it’s almost as if you’ve watched some of the games or something.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 25, 2011 1:57 AM MST up reply actions  

Why do people come up with crap like this

that other people are entitled to their opinion? I mean, do you detect any sign that I am trying to deprive others of their opinions? What kind of crap is that?

And now, breaking down a series, play by play is “hypocritical nonsense”? Do you have something to say about the issue? If so, let’s hear your response regarding the issue! Telling me that others have a right to their opinions and telling me I am a hypocrite is not the issue.

Listen, if you can’t stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen. I didn’t attack you. I was discussing the player. If you have such a thin skin, then go over to the Broncos Country board and post there. They go out of their way to protect your skin there.

Now, I have made valid points. If they have become hard to answer, then don’t answer. But leave me out of it. I am not the issue . . .

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 25, 2011 9:32 AM MST up reply actions  

damn AZ are you even reading the crap you're writing ???

you"re the one who introduced the whole hypocrisy thing when you said “sometimes these boards wreak of hypocrisy” so when i said to get off of your hypocritical nonsense it was obviously referring to your blanket statement about the other posters on these boards and not calling you a hypocrite. FYI the reference to allowing others to have their opinions is in reference to this tendency you have of referring to ther peoples posts as crap.. which by the way is why i referred to your post as crap…just to give you a taste of your own medicine. It’s disrespectful of others and not very classy so cut it out. As for your analysis of the last plays of the St. Louis game what you have chosen to blame on Harris others here have reviewed and determined that KO lacked the ability to read, react and escape the pressure which is obviously a requirement for any quality NFL QB. For some reason you don’t seem to be able to grasp the fact that a large percentage of the plays in the NFL don’t go according to plan, defensive coordinators know how to exploit weaknesses and no matter how good your scheme you need a QB who can make something happen when blocks are missed and a play needs to be made. Need evidence? Watch both championship games and tell me that Rogers and Big Ben didn’t make the difference because of their ability to move around and make plays happen when they were under pressure. Your so called valid points have been considered and found to be lacking in substance. Try again?

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 25, 2011 8:07 PM MST up reply actions  

you might as well quit

with this guy. i told him exactly what i thought of him, but it was deleted. i’m glad that azdynamics can post whatever the fu** he wants. i’m glad that he can constantly belittle everyone else, and yet his posts are left alone. you let me post one thing in response though, and it gets yanked. i like mhr, but i really question it sometimes. the problem is that there are those that CONSTANTLY belittle others, they just try to do it ever so slightly. they think that by being wordy or subtle that somehow it’s still not offensive. i’m not one of those guys, and i call it like i damn well see it. i’m not going to tolerate someone like azdynamics, or anyone else that wants to bash others. i will call them out, especially if they take shots at me. i’m just not going to waltz around it. i can see why there have been many that have left mhr and made their way over to places like IAOFM, where serious discussion is not only allowed, but encouraged. they don’t get their panties in a bunch over a comment that isn’t all sunshine and rainbows. the easy answer would be to say “if you don’t like it, gtfo..” but all it shows is that some folks here are simply above the “mhr law” and others like myself that are outspoken on a number of critical issues are simply silenced when something is said that anyone with a “delete comment” feature doesn’t particularly like. no, guys like azdynamics will just continue to get away with his snarky little comments and there is nothing that can be done about it. oh sure, “use the flag feature..” RIGHT. that’s hilarious. i’ve flagged a few comments that i found offensive, and maybe i was the only one. but don’t you think if it’s offensive to at least one person that it should be removed regardless? but no, that is not how it works. clearly there is a club here, and i am not in it, nor do i want to be. i’m all for free speech, but if you can dish it, you damn well better be able to take it. but i guess if you can’t, the mods will just help you out.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 25, 2011 10:43 PM MST up reply actions  

i'm not a quitter GC....lol

I’m with you though, trying to reason with guys like this is like trying to negotiate world peace with Kim Jong Il. You are of course correct on all points but it irritates me to no end that guys like this can disrespect other posters (myself not included) here with his drivel and even insult the community as a whole by implying we’re all hypocrites if we don’t see it his way. No worries though man, guys like this tend to come and go and tend to be irrelevant over time. I saw the exchange you had where he implied that Tebow should be a RB and when you called him on it he said “that wasn’t exactly what I said, I prefaced it with something else” (paraphrasing) . Which was laughable considering everyone knows where he stands on the whole KO v TT debate. Hang in there man !!
This post will mysteriously self delete in 12 hours.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 26, 2011 10:59 AM MST up reply actions  

Speak for yourself in your dishonesty . . .

First of all, I am not any part of a KO/TT debate. I was never in a QB comparison debate. I wasn’t in the Plummer/Cutler debates, or the Cutler/Orton debates, or the Orton/Tebow debates. I don’t give a rat’s behind about that. Whenever I even stopped to read any of that, I read it mostly with disgust that I wasted the time to read it. So don’t go saying “everyone knows” where I stand. Speak for yourself, or look like a fool.

Second, I did not say “we’re all hypocrites.” Sometimes, it takes only one or two hypocrites/trolls to cause a board to wreak of hypocrisy. So don’t go misrepresenting what I say. I also did not say Tebow should be a running back. To anyone reading above the third grade level, that should have been obvious. I was making a point, but I guess it went over your head.

I don’t disrespect many posters. I am very selective with my insults. Which might indicate where you two stand at this point. I enjoy banter with someone who disagrees with me, who can conduct an intelligent discussion and stick to the issue and not make me the topic — something grind core cannot seem to do.

But I won’t make the mistake of responding to either of you again. I’ve wasted enough time with you . . .

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 26, 2011 5:39 PM MST up reply actions  

Thank you...

Your lack of future responses will be appreciated. Just for future reference you may want to consider refraining from calling peoples posts crap, or calling them hypocrites or calling them dishonest or calling them a fool. it’s hardly a good way to engage in an intelligent discussion as you claim you are capable of having. But then again since I only have the education of a third grader I probably couldn’t relate to someone with your intellect anyway..so thanks again AZ, have a nice life.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 26, 2011 6:07 PM MST up reply actions  

And I would suggest that you might want to become more honest with your posts in the future and not lie about what others have said,. When someone is dishonest, as you are being here, I will call them out for it, just as I am doing with you here. When others post intelligently, I give them credit for posting intelligently. When others make ME the topic, I tend to lay into them. But, as I said, you would have to worry about that because I won’t bother to respond to you in the future.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 26, 2011 6:17 PM MST up reply actions  

I meant you won’t have to worry about that. (I wish we could correct our typos here.)
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 26, 2011 6:26 PM MST up reply actions  

orton was carried

by the “monsters of the midway” you know, the defense? ever heard of those guys?

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 23, 2011 11:28 PM MST up reply actions  

yep those same dudes

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 6:57 PM MST up reply actions  

Really?

That kind of stuff just doesn’t make sense.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 21, 2011 1:09 PM MST up reply actions  

Then pay attention , it's pretty simple actually.

At what level has Orton proven to be a winner. And please by winner I’m not talking about having a marginal winning record. I’m talking about winning a championship. The difference actually makes more sense than you think. It’s the difference between your QB calling the play in the huddle and expecting / projecting that it will be successful vs calling the play and hoping it works. Clearly KO does not project confidence to his teammates because they know that if the play breaks down the odds are that it will fail due to his limited escapability and improvisational skills. This is what separates the best QB’s from the avg. QB’s. Ie Rothlesberger, Rogers, Brady, Manning, Phyllis etc… And no you don’t have to be a scrambling QB to have great escapability and improvisational skills. Much of this comes from an inner / innate belief that you can always make a play. IMO Tim always thinks he can make a play whether it goes as planned or breaks down, whereas I have not witnessed this ability from Kyle. On the contrary it appears that the bigger the moment the more apt he is to fold. Fox refers to this when he made the statement about Tim that he is not afraid to be great and when he made the statement that some people are pilots and some are passengers. Both of these statements were made when referring to Tebow in interviews. There’s actually a strange vacuum of statements regarding Kyle since Fox came on board. I’m curious what you think that means.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 21, 2011 11:13 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

A lot of personal opinions in there

None of which I agree with, but hey, that’s what opinions are for.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 22, 2011 1:13 AM MST up reply actions  

If we got into specifics it would last all day

And I don’t think either of us would change our opinions, so is it worth it?

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 22, 2011 3:06 AM MST up reply actions  

Agreed

It’s easier to say we disagree then argue.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 22, 2011 9:35 PM MST up reply actions  

We probably don't disagree as much as you might think.

I’ve seen most of your posts and agree with many of them.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 22, 2011 10:49 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks

And I wasn’t referring to you or myself, I was speaking in general.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 23, 2011 12:18 AM MST up reply actions  

depends on whats offered

Good backups have value… perhaps more than a team will be willing to part with.

Denver should absolutely consider trading Orton… but should remember the hedge value he has as perhaps the best backup in the NFL.

by cjfarls on Jan 21, 2011 10:32 AM MST up reply actions  

Record shattering that amounted to what?

You forget that all those yards were also the result of leading the league in attempts. No one was throwing the ball more often, so he better have been leading the league in yards. And what did it get him? He had one of the lowest TD% in the NFL. His yards were empty, and here you are propping this up as his defense? Most QBs in the league with a modicum of accuracy would have been leading the league in yards if given the opportunity to throw that often. In addition, most of Orton’s yards came in catch-up mode. Part of this was the defenses’ inability to stop anyone, but an equal part was Orton’s inability to get the ball in the end zone early in the game.

His performance last year was not awe-inspiring. It was rather pedestrian – the yardage totals were a mirage. I find it hilarious that everyone called Cutler’s last year here a bunch of empty yards when in fact he found the end zone more often than Orton ever did. And did again this year with nearly 150 fewer attempts.

Orton should not start or this team goes nowhere. He has not proven to be a leader or be able to succeed under pressure. And success is determined by wins and points, not yards.

by improv88 on Jan 21, 2011 8:48 AM MST up reply actions  

team success

is determined by points and wins…

individual success is harder to guage. Agree yards is a poor metric, but Orton also looked good in DVOA, 1st downs, TD/int ration, etc… I wouldn’t discard him too much.

by cjfarls on Jan 21, 2011 10:34 AM MST up reply actions  

What you omitted, as usual,

was that a team has to be able to run to have any success down in the end zone. It is especially critical down there because the limited space makes it so much easier to cover receivers. If the defense does not respect the run, then the safeties and linebackers are more free to cover receivers.

I also noticed that, in mentioning Orton’s number of attempts, you omitted that he was second in the league in YPA — that’s
yards per attempt. So, every time he passed the ball, he gained more yards than everyone else in the league except for Philip Rivers. That’s more than Brady, Manning, and Brees.

Football is a team game. If a player is struggling in a certain area, it may be his fault, or it may be a failure to support him — or both, of course. But just to blame the player and omit other factors is very disingenuous.
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 21, 2011 4:34 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

Not trying to argue but

did you notice how the run game improved with Tebow at the controls? Maybe the added dimension he brings?

The QB position is set!

by broncofaninIL on Jan 21, 2011 6:34 PM MST up reply actions  

The improvement in the run game was Tebow.

There was virtually no change in production from the backs.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 21, 2011 6:44 PM MST up reply actions  

Agree with what plainview said

Tebow was a lot of those yards. Also, it should have increased as well because Moreno was reaching 100%, and the offensive line had been playing together for a while.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 21, 2011 6:55 PM MST up reply actions  

It's interesting

I was just on DB.com looking at game stats. Tebow did get a large share of yards in one game specifically. The backs yards also fell off significantly once Tebow started. I am not so sure that is a good thing. It isn’t that we ran for more yards but that our QB was running. In fact, without doing the math I think our rushing yardage fell off, but Tebow had most of those yards that we did get. I am not so sure that is a good thing.

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 21, 2011 7:03 PM MST up reply actions  

I might not be understanding you, but there rushing yards actually increased in the last 3 games.

-The first 13 games they averaged 89.7 yards a game on 23.3 carries a game

-The last 3 games they averaged 126 yards a game on 31.7 carries a game

Now Tebow accounted for 66.3 yards a game on 10.3 carries a game over the last 3, so the running back yards look like they declined, which might be your point that I am just missing. I don’t think that is a pace Tebow would continue for a whole year, that would be something else. My guess is with Fox, the team will be closer to averaging 30+ carries a game (Not including Tebow runs)

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 21, 2011 8:08 PM MST up reply actions  

Agreed, Fox is a conservative play caller

So we can expect more runs then passes next season, which could be good or bad depending on how our line shapes up.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 21, 2011 9:06 PM MST up reply actions  

the running back yards look like they declined, which might be your point

Correct.
I don’t want to start another debate but yes and to explain my viewpoint. The averaging is what throws off my point. Our running backs had increased production mid to late season. We really hadn’t run very well at all early on. So, when Tebow started there is a significant change looking at game to game stats and not as an average.
I don’t say this is bad other than my usual argument that TT is at a higher risk of injury. I am just going to keep telling myself BQ can play, has experience and if our team improves (which it must) he will have a better supporting cast.
I am officially joining the trade Orton bandwagon for the sole reason I would like to see him get a starting job somewhere and hopefully he can have a good career. I seen a lot worse qb’s start ;)

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 22, 2011 4:31 AM MST up reply actions  

I guess it doesn't matter at all that

the O-line started to come together, that Harris was back at RT and Beadles at LG? Far as Tebow’s rushing stats, I don’t care a lot. Vick had amazing stats, but never amounted to much as a QB until he learned to pass from the pocket this last year. If we are going to drool all over Tebow’s running ability, then maybe he ought to be a RB. After all , it worked out for Hillis.

But I was talking about how the running game needs to support the passing game. The QB shouldn’t have to provide all the running himself. He needs the help of RBs. Orton did not have that. In fact, Orton himself was the Broncos’ leading rusher for a while . . .
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 22, 2011 7:12 PM MST up reply actions  

In fact, Orton himself was the Broncos’ leading rusher for a while . . .

Really? For how long?

And Tebow didn’t have any more production from the backs than Orton did. But if you are going to talk about just moving him to RB, I guess you don’t care much.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 22, 2011 9:33 PM MST up reply actions  

He really was

thats how pathetic our run game was last year. Not sure where I read or heard that, but he definitely was the rush leader for a bit, I think in the early part of the season when Knowshon got hurt

by Calikula on Jan 23, 2011 9:34 AM MST up reply actions  

Let’s don’t make my comments something they are not, okay? I was not talking about moving Tebow to RB. I was making a point, which you obviously chose to ignore. That is not discussing the issue: That is simply twisting what I said.

Regarding running support for Tebow, I will admit he didn’t get much help in the Oakland game. But notice that the Broncos were blown out in that game, too.

In Tebow’s final two games, the running game pretty much came alive with a 4.58 YPA (from the RBs, not counting Tebow’s production). That is a very healthy average. Orton never enjoyed near that production, except in the two KC games when Moreno was 22/106 and 23/161, respectively. (Of course, nothing could have helped Orton in the latter KC game since he was playing with the rib injury and admittedly should not have been in there at the time.)

So Tebow had considerably more help from the running game, and the defense was picking it up in the last two games, too. Fortunately for him, Tebow did not have to deal with what was going on before he was inserted as starter.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 23, 2011 11:37 AM MST up reply actions  

I didn’t twist anything, you said maybe he ought to be a running back.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 23, 2011 10:39 PM MST up reply actions  

I didn't say anything of the sort.

You just had trouble comprehending what I wrote, I guess. I hope that is not an ongoing problem . . .
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 1:21 AM MST up reply actions  

My bad

I though you wrote this

 I

f we are going to drool all over Tebow’s running ability, then maybe he ought to be a RB.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 1:33 AM MST up reply actions  

Your bad exactly.

Now, where did I say in that statement that Tebow should be moved to RB? Is it that hard to understand?

Don’t you have anything better to do than to pick at one statement out of all I have written?

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:03 AM MST up reply actions  

sorry, you said maybe he ought to be a RB

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:08 AM MST up reply actions  

That is not all I said . .

Did I or did I not include an introductory phrase to that?

Are you having trouble reading, or do you just feel like picking at one single statement I made? You are bordering on trolling, if not already there.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:12 AM MST up reply actions  

You got me, I’m the troll.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:18 AM MST up reply actions  

how dare you ;)

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:28 AM MST up reply actions  

i find this funny:

“If we are going to drool all over Tebow’s running ability, then maybe he ought to be a RB.”

followed by

“Now, where did I say in that statement that Tebow should be moved to RB? Is it that hard to understand?”

“I didn’t say anything of the sort.
You just had trouble comprehending what I wrote”

well then professor, what exactly did you mean? it seems as though both 88 and myself both got it wrong. or maybe we didn’t, and you just got owned. it’s one of the two. i’m pretty sure i know where i’d put my money.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:21 AM MST up reply actions  

grindcore continues to...

…have trouble understanding conditional statements….

You know, “if…, then…” statements? They use them in English… and and pretty much every other language. They also tend to be a major part of LOGIC.

by cjfarls on Jan 25, 2011 12:20 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

ok

you don’t want to battle wits with me, take my word. it’s funny that you speak of logic, and that is what my comment was seeking. what that dude wrote sure as hell didn’t seem logical to me. apparently i’m not the only one that noticed, either.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 25, 2011 6:26 PM MST up reply actions  

+1, Rec, and Thank you, cjfaris . . .

There are some people to whom we just should not respond. I’m glad there are people who understood just what I was saying.

For the record, I am a fan of Tim Tebow’s. But it is only to someone such as you I would say that . . .
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 26, 2011 5:45 PM MST up reply actions  

and you know who else is big on

“if, then” statements? the arizona shooter. go look up his youtube videos. if that is what you deem as logic, then i don’t want any part of it.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 27, 2011 1:29 AM MST up reply actions  

And unless my math is wrong, when you take out Tebow’s runs, over the final 3 games they averaged 21.4 runs for 59.7 yards a game. And once again, my math might be off. But looking at the box score, if I take out Tebows runs of just the last 2 games they averaged 19.5 carries for 75.5 yards. That hardly seems like coming alive to me compared to the first 13 games where they averaged 89.7 yards a game on 23.3 carries a game.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 23, 2011 10:49 PM MST up reply actions  

It is amazing how you and others will throw in situations to buoy your own stats . . .

I already admitted that the running game wasn’t there in the Oakland game, and pointed out that Denver was blown out in that game. (Might it be possible the two would go hand-in-hand?)

I then pointed out that in the final two games the Broncos ran for a 4.58 YPA — not including Tebow’s runs. Now, a 4.58 YPA is a good running game. And my math is very good.

When Orton was behind center, the running game did begin to improve a bit after the bye, but at one point before then the YPA was 1.7. The Broncos ranked 32nd in the rush. And still Orton was leading the league in passing yardage.

I don’t know why some of you work so hard to try to prove Orton was not a good quarterback. McDaniels thought he was, and, regardless of what we think about the rest of his performance, he knows quarterbacks.

And now, in his show last Friday on 87.7 The Ticket, John Elway had glowing words for Orton, mentioning that, while some look at 4-12, he (Elway) looks at the fact that Orton led the league in passing until he hurt his ribs “and they had to put Tebow in.” And I would say Elway knows quarterbacks, wouldn’t you?

Orton has yet to have a decent break in his entire professional career. Yet he still has fought through it and done a better job than most thought he could. And still there are those who puke in their mouths at the thought that he might be a good quarterback.

Well, I have news for you all: Orton is a good quarterback. A damned good quarterback. And if the coaching staff gives him an honest shot at competing this next year for the position, do not count him out to seize the job. Because I believe he will. He is that good.
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 1:36 AM MST up reply actions  

I didn’t say Orton is not a good QB! I was saying Tebow had essentially the same support from the run game. Most people here would like to see us get a 2nd or 3rd rounder for him, how can not think he is good?

Minus the Tebow yards, they averaged 19.5 carries for 75.5 yards in the last 2 games. When Orton was starting it was 89.7 yards a game on 23.3 carries a game. My point is Tebow was not benefiting from some big jump in production out of the running game.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 1:48 AM MST up reply actions  

what was the YPA?

I think this is AZ’s point. 50 yards on 30 attempts is NOT the same support as 50 yards on 15 attempts.

by cjfarls on Jan 25, 2011 12:22 PM MST up reply actions   1 recs

believe me, I got his point. lol.

but even still, Tebow wasn’t getting anything special from the running game wither.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 25, 2011 12:30 PM MST up reply actions  

You keep saying that, even after I showed you, in numbers, that the running backs were averaging 4.5 yards a carry in the last two games, not including Tebow’s runs. That is a good average and far better than Kyle ever enjoyed.

Now, I guess the perception has been drawn that I’m debating QBs. I’m really not, but just responding to erroneous claims about Tebow’s not having run support, when the YPA states that, in fact, he did. That is all I’m saying.

As to who should be the QB from here on out, I’m not sure. And that pretty much agrees with Elway, Fox, and McCoy, too, because they have indicated that they are not sure at this point . . .
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 26, 2011 6:14 PM MST up reply actions  

pot

i’d like you to meet kettle.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:34 AM MST up reply actions  

coming alive implies

they got better over time. Look at the mid season run results. The Broncos run sucked at the beginning and the end of the year. In the middle they were coming alive.

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 24, 2011 8:00 AM MST up reply actions  

wow, talk about omitting things

“Far as Tebow’s rushing stats, I don’t care a lot.”

nice argument bro. way to represent all sides unbiased.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 23, 2011 11:33 PM MST up reply actions  

Don't you pull that shit on me . . .

We were talking about the help Tebow got from the running game, not how he ran. That is why I did it. Try to be honest with your posts.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 1:38 AM MST up reply actions  

Which was not much different than the help Orton got

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 1:49 AM MST up reply actions  

How about some documentation?

I provided the figures. You are just providing unfounded words.

There is a hell of a lot off difference between 4.58 YPA and 1.7 YPA.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:00 AM MST up reply actions  

For the third time, they were averaging 89.7 yards a game on 23.3 carries a game after 13 games.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:04 AM MST up reply actions  

And for the fourth time, the YPA was 4.58 in the final two games.

And Orton NEVER had that kind of help, except in the KC games.

I don’t know why I keep responding.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:08 AM MST up reply actions  

Where are you getting that number?

(I have taken out Tebow’s stats)

Houston game, 23 carries for 99 yards
San Diego game, 16 carries for 52 yards

That equals 39 carries for 151 yards, or 3.87 yards per rush.

Where is this 4.58 coming from?

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:15 AM MST up reply actions  

And feel free to double check the box score, I could have made an error….

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:19 AM MST up reply actions  

I think I suffered one of my frequent memory lapses . . .

The average was 4.48, not 4.58.

Anyway, here it is (running backs only):

Houston: 23 carries for 99 yards.
San Diego: 15 carries for 70 yards.

Total 169/38 = 4.48.
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BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:23 AM MST up reply actions  

I'm not counting Lloyd's reverse

because that was just a gimmick play that got blown up. The issue is the production of the running backs.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:26 AM MST up reply actions  

yea, i mean, shoot

we’ll just leave out stats all willy-nilly and we can all have our own thesis papers containing whichever stats clearly prove our individual argument to be the right one.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:33 AM MST up reply actions  

WR sweeps (I’m guessing is what the negative run was) are part of the running game too, but you do have a good point that the running backs average per run was better. However when dealing with such small sample sizes, I think it is very unfair to say Tebow had a much better run game supporting him. Orton was getting 90 a game, Tebow didn’t get much better, he probably got worse.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:29 AM MST up reply actions  

And I have to say, you really pick and choose your stats.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:33 AM MST up reply actions  

I pick what is applicable to the issue and omit what is not. Guess that comes with about 10 credit hours of postgraduate statistics.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:36 AM MST up reply actions  

your guess is as good as mine

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:38 AM MST up reply actions  

obviously,

our guesses are NOT as good as his..

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:51 AM MST up reply actions  

You hit on a cardinal rule in statistics . . .

Don’t place much credibility on small samples. So bottom line is that it has all been an exercise on vanity. So I would say that the only significant statement of the night between us has just been made by you. We need to see more before we know anything.

Thank you. I think we’ve finally hit on common ground. Now I will bid you goodnight and look forward to the next tussle with you. :)

Have a good one, mate.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:34 AM MST up reply actions  

LOL, I’m sure I’ll be trolling around here again soon.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 24, 2011 2:39 AM MST up reply actions  

That’s okay. You’re one of my favorite trolls. lol

Sorry about that.
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 3:18 AM MST up reply actions  

Let me add an apology for that troll remark. I do respect you as a poster. I just became aggravated that my statement about Tebow was not taken as I meant it, but perhaps I should have made myself more clear. In any case, however, I should not have said that to you. I’m sorry.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 26, 2011 5:48 PM MST up reply actions  

listen,

no need to backtrack. we all know how you really feel. you can’t really slap someone in the face, then be like “oh, uh, sorry about that slapping thing. can we just pretend it never happened?” i’m sorry, it doesn’t work that way. throughout this post you have clearly shown what you are all about, and feigning an apology isn’t going to garner you anything.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 27, 2011 1:32 AM MST up reply actions  

wow

touchy, touchy. way to curse mr. internet touch guy. lol, you guys are all the same. let me guess, i bet i have no clue what ’nam was all about, right? lol

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:09 AM MST up reply actions  

And you are a hypocrite and worthy of no more of my time.

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 2:16 AM MST up reply actions  

awww

that’s too bad.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:16 AM MST up reply actions  

Okay but

how much of that was because McD refused to run the ball in the second half, and because our defense was awful, and he had to be one of the worst 4th quarter QB’s in the NFL last year everytime he had a chance to make a play and help us win the game he’d f*** it up bad. Picks Fumbles and most annoyingly sacks when we have no timeouts. Tebow on the other hand brought a fire to the rest of the team that they didnt have before. Tebow led Denver back from down 17-0 at half to win and nearly did it against the Chargers and would have if Robert Ayers didnt take a bad angle on Mathews on 4th and 1. Orton is a “prettier” passer, but he’s not the gamer/winner that Tebow is, and if Tebow brings anything to Denver its the fact that he knows how to win which is something very few players on this team right now know how to do.

by Tony Astorino on Jan 21, 2011 11:17 AM MST up reply actions  

But Orton is one of them

As said before Kyle Orton has/Had a good winning record before coming to Denver. Tebow will not, and has not won games with our lousy defense and lack of offensive line play. Though Tebow did have the advantage of better offensive line play than Orton did as they finally started gelling at the end of the season.
Say what you want about his picks and fumbles, he had fewer than many other QB’s and his TD to INT ratio is pretty damn good. Sacks, you can blame KO for lack of mobility but if he had blocking that would have been better.
So Tebows lack of a comeback win is Ayers fault but KO’s lack of comeback wins are KO’s fault. Nice…….

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 21, 2011 5:32 PM MST up reply actions   2 recs

+1

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 24, 2011 1:38 AM MST up reply actions  

Good job PH

I totally agree with you on the CBA stuff too. The owners have no reason to hurry. I’d be amazed if they came to an agreement before summer. As far as the Tebow and Orton thing goes I expect that Tebow will be working hard every day from now until next season to be ready. I can’t picture the same from Orton, although I might be wrong about that. If I were a player I’d be working my rear off to be ready.

We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!

by SSinSD on Jan 20, 2011 9:36 PM MST reply actions  

Change your name right now

From BroncoPH to Bronco PHD. Rec’d

by idahobronc on Jan 20, 2011 9:49 PM MST reply actions  

+1

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Jan 21, 2011 12:00 AM MST up reply actions  

One of the best posts I've ever read, rec'd

I really think you nailed John Fox and the defense, and gave us a more accurate look at how he changed Carolina without major changes in starters (I read recently that 14 of 22 starters on that 1-15 team were still starting on his Super Bowl team). Great and funny writing, too. I think I actually lol’d a couple times -)

A couple thoughts on the offense:

1. Fox only had a top-20 rushing offense one time until he started DJ Williams. It’s certainly true that his offenses weren’t gunslingers, but his offenses weren’t very good overall either. It’s also true that his offenses ran the ball a lot (even though they weren’t good at it until DJ Williams), but couldn’t that be because they had Jake Delhomme under center?

2. I’m not sure I really agree with your premise on Kyle Orton. He’s a game manager. He’s a safe QB. Until McDaniels, Kyle Orton pretty much epitomized the low risk/low reward type QB that’s going to let the run game and the defense run the game.

3. Where did you figure your 16.5 number to keep Tebow and Orton? How much do you have Tebow making?

Oh, nice take on the CBA too. Nothing usually gets done with these types of negotiations until the brink of disaster when somebody blinks.

by Rodney A on Jan 20, 2011 10:00 PM MST reply actions  

Great Question Rodney

I got my QB salary information from the Denver Post. Specifically this article here.

In short:

Assuming Orton is paid what his contract stipulates, he is slated to make 8.8 million dollars next year if he remains on our team.

Tim Tebow will make 1.62 million guaranteed in 2011 plus a 6.28 million dollar roster bonus 29 days after the start of the 2011 season. He would also get a 1.54 million bonus if he plays at least 45 percent of the snaps. By my count that brings his season total to 9.44 million if he starts but Lindsay Jones quotes it at 8.23 million so I’m willing to just roll with that number.

Add the two numbers together and you get 17.03 million but if Tebow doesn’t start it falls to below 16 million. Add Quinn’s salary of 700K and you’ve got 16.5 million, which will no doubt fluctuate one way or the other depending on how our QB situation shakes out.

GB2

by BroncoPH on Jan 20, 2011 10:18 PM MST up reply actions  

Thanks for that link, it helped out in a tiresome debate I was having in another post lol

The Tebow number surprised me. That’s a huge roster bonus for a guy whose contract is only 9.75 million (or so). That must be a delayed signing bonus. I guess it shouldn’t surprise me that Tebow let them hang onto the signing/roster bonus for an extra year. The guy probably would have paid them just to let him play.

Anyway, thanks for clearing that up. Great writeup once again

by Rodney A on Jan 20, 2011 11:41 PM MST up reply actions  

Oh and just to avoid another debate with anyone reading this..

Yes, Im aware that 9.75ish is Tebow’s base contract and that he’s got another 23M or so in possible incentives -)

by Rodney A on Jan 20, 2011 11:43 PM MST up reply actions  

KO is only guarenteed around $2 million. KK would have all the figures but I remember an article coming out from Klis that said it was NOT an $8 mill guarentee.

FIRE JOE ELLIS!

ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!

"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"

Harv Neptune.

by boydy2669 on Jan 21, 2011 5:12 AM MST up reply actions  

I believe the $8M has to do with incentives

but Rotoworld has this.

Kyle Orton Quarterback 8/19/2010: Signed a one-year extension. 2010: $2.621 million, 2011: Under contract, Free Agent

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk

by KaptainKirk on Jan 21, 2011 6:51 AM MST up reply actions  

It's time to put the idea that his $8.4M 2011 salary is incentive laden...

The idea was once written as a thought or a rumor… has since been echoed over and over… and now everyone is still solidly convinced that Kyle’s BASE is like 2M-4M. It’s wrong. Completely. But when a guy as respected as you allows it to continue by saying, “I believe the $8M has to do with incentives”… it’s allowed to carry on further in the echo chamber.

Rotoworld has this:

2011: $6.89 million (+ $1.5 million roster bonus)…
$2.879M OF that amount is guaranteed to Kyle even if he we cut him.

And Denver Post has this:

The Broncos would owe him (Orton) $8.4 million if he’s here next fall — far too much for a backup. The deal includes a $1.5 million roster bonus due after the start of the league year, whenever that may be because of the labor uncertainty. The salary is $6.89 million, but only $2.89 million is guaranteed.

Kyle Orton is due $8.4M if he stays on the roster for the season. He would be paid 2.89M if he got hit by a car and cut from the roster. The Broncos would owe him nothing if he was traded. And this whole fallacy about 8.4M being packed in incentives is just plain wrong. Rather minimal ‘likely to be earned’ incentives may be included in that, but by and large… Kyle will get paid ABOUT 8.4M by the Broncos even if he’s riding the bench. Those are the facts unless you’ve got a some other source you want to cite.

by Rodney A on Jan 21, 2011 9:18 AM MST up reply actions  

Thanks Rodney

I need to update my database.

Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk

by KaptainKirk on Jan 21, 2011 9:36 AM MST up reply actions  

TT's roster bonus is part of the current rookie salary debacle

What many folks don’t realize is that the NFL already has a rookie salary cap…. the problem is it only is in effect the 1st year of the contract (rookie year).

So what teams have done, is put much of the guaruntee money in as 1st year roster bonuses. Therefore when you think of that $6.28mill bonus, think of it as signing bonus for a 1st round pick. As such, it is really amortized over the remaining lifetime of the contract… we’ll just pay him lower amounts in years 3/4/5.

Also remember that a good backup QB costs a few million $$. Spending roughly $15 mill/year on the QB position is not an extreme amount that will throw off other roster groups, etc. There is no reason we can’t keep both Orton and TT this year.

by cjfarls on Jan 21, 2011 11:17 AM MST up reply actions  

2. I’m not sure I really agree with your premise on Kyle Orton. He’s a game manager. He’s a safe QB. Until McDaniels, Kyle Orton pretty much epitomized the low risk/low reward type QB that’s going to let the run game and the defense run the game.

Yeah because game managers spend most of the NFL season leading the league in big plays passes …… That was the Bears system he was playing in similar to what Cutler is doing now if anything Orton has shown that he can do both. …….but at the end of the day you need defense to be successful.

by Hoopforia on Jan 22, 2011 10:34 PM MST up reply actions  

or you simply need to be able

to do something with nothing, kinda like the way tebow did once he took over. funny how he had the same team around him, yet they looked a hell of a lot better. interesting, no?

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 23, 2011 11:35 PM MST up reply actions  

I wouldn't consider 1-2 much better

But hey, if you’re happy.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 24, 2011 12:14 AM MST up reply actions  

no, not yet.

but i’m much happier knowing orton more than likely won’t be our starter next year. that’s certainly a good start.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 24, 2011 2:27 AM MST up reply actions  

So you care more about Orton not starting

Then the record. See I don’t care who starts at quarterback, the record matters more.

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 24, 2011 10:14 AM MST up reply actions  

And they still lost

2/3 of the games Tebow played. Not really anything to brag about.

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 24, 2011 8:07 AM MST up reply actions  

Really like your writing style

And very good points. Loved what you said about the CBA – very true.

This got my wheels turning. There are lots of broad strokes thoughts in here, most of which I was in agreement with, but after some research, some are off a bit.

Only in the last 3 years has Carolina stopped throwing the ball with regularity or efficiency. Carolina’s passing game absolutely fell apart in 2009 and hasn’t recovered. Could be McCoy leaving?

From 2003 to 2007, Denver and Carolina finished the year with passing attempt totals within 20 attempts of each other every year. Except for 2006 when Carolina threw it around 80 times more than Denver did.

In the last 3 years Denver’s gone pass crazy and Carolina’s gone run crazy.

2010 was an abberation and an unmitigated disaster for the Panthers passing game. Only 5.4 passing yards per attempt and 9 total passing TDs over the whole season is historically bad.

A few things I learned:

Once Magazu got to Carolina, he changed their running game quickly. Carolina’s running game was ranked #24 in 2006. In 07 they were ranked 14 with 17 TDs, in 08 they were ranked 3rd with 30 (THIRTY) Tds, and in 09 they ranked 3rd again with 18 tds. Last year they ranked 18th with only 13 tds. But that’s understandable when opposing defenses can key on the run game becaus ethe team can’t throw to save its life.

Only in 2008 and 2009 did Carolina run more times that they passed. So they actually were more of a passing offense.

Carolina’s passing game was statistically uneven since 2003. I would say that’s most likely due to QB play. Delhomme’s stats are as inconsistent as they come.

Looking at the bigger picture. Denver’s running game was extrememly consistent until Shanny got sent to the showers. Averaging over 4.5 ypc from 03 to 08. In Carolina, Magazu had them averaging around 4.5 ypc in the past 4 years.

More big picture learnings happen on Defense: Carolina was average to above average when it came to how many points they gave up per game. Yardage wise, they were wither top 8 or from 16-20. SO, they were very good, or below average, but no in between. In 2010, they fell apart. Generally, they were inconsistent.

Denver was awesome under Larry Coyer. Especially their run D. Their D ranked 4th in 2003 AND 2004 and 15, then 14 in ‘05 and 06. Points wise, they were 9th, 9th, 3rd, and 8th. Since then they’ve been pretty bad except in 2009 under Nolan. In 07 they ranked 28th in ppg, in 08 they ranked 30th, in 09 they ranked 12th (Nolan) and in 10 they ranked 32nd. I know that in 2006, there was a bit of a defensive collapes in the 2nd half of the season that led to Coyer being fired, but the talent level was crap, injuries mounted, and the offensive gameplan changed when Cutler entered the picture and threw off the team balance, like it or not. Captain hindsignt HATES that move.

Anyway, its also clear that DeAngelo WIliams is a stud and that Denver should bring him in. He’s a 5 ypc back.

Fox will bring balance to an organization that’s been inconsistent. Even in the Shanny years since 03, Denver’s passing game ranked (yardage wise) 22, 6, 18, 25, 13, and 3rd. Since, they’ve been 13th and 7th. And McCoy’s still here.

Denver may have found their sweet spot. Magazu running the O-line. McCoy working the passing game, and our new DC running the D with Fox’s assistance.

Denver’s assistant coaching staff in phenomenal. And we don’t even have a DC yet.

Subscribe FREE to my weekly PODcast on iTunes. The Denver broncos Podcast (http://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-denver-broncos-podcast/id393488394)

Go Broncos!

by super7 on Jan 20, 2011 10:21 PM MST reply actions   1 recs

Loved this text. Thanks man.

by AndreMC on Jan 20, 2011 10:33 PM MST reply actions  

I have my doubts as to whether we will see the kind of run-heavy offense some are predicting. I believe Fox is a product of the chess pieces in front of him. With Tebow and the receiving weapons Denver has (expect a FA or drafted receiving TE), the offense will be allowed to have a fairly balanced attack IMO. It certainly won’t be McD’s air attack, but we likely all agree we should move off that extreme for now.

Well written.

Always remember Goliath was a 40 point favorite over David.
-- Shug Jordan

by Orange and Blue on Jan 20, 2011 11:58 PM MST reply actions  

Nice work BroncoPH

That was quite a post and a very good read.

but if there is one thing I can feel confident in saying, it’s that there is not a single Bronco that is going to work harder to be successful under John Fox’s new system than Tim Tebow.

This is one of the reason I like Tebow and a run first team would be good for him.

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Jan 21, 2011 12:03 AM MST reply actions  

DID YOU WATCH THIS PAST SEASON

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 21, 2011 11:01 AM MST up reply actions  

Of course every player works hard.

I wasn’t the one who said it, just quoting it because Tebow’s work ethic is one of the reasons I like him. You know he is going to bust his tail off to improve on whatever needs to improve on. I never implied that other Bronco players don’t work hard and the post didn’t say anything either.

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Jan 21, 2011 4:51 PM MST up reply actions  

That's a very dubious assumption

In the NFL, extremely hard working players are the rule not the exception.

by admill on Jan 21, 2011 8:34 AM MST up reply actions   1 recs

I don't think anyone said that the other players

don’t work hard, they do. But it’s become clear to all of us and to the other players on the team that TT’s work ethic is in the elite class. After all, there have always been players who separated themselves in their work habits. Rod Smith, Jerry Rice, and Walter Payton come to mind. In the NFL, “work harder” is the mantra of every player, coach, owner, etc. After every game, particularly losses, when asked what they need to do next week, invariably the first statement is “we need to get back to work” or “we need to work harder….” Because this is such an ingrained mind-set in the league, the players who rise to the top and outwork the others immediately gain respect and a following. Of course what they do on the field is the ultimate judge of how much respect they ultimately get. I feel pretty good about TTs chances.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 21, 2011 9:37 AM MST up reply actions   3 recs

Agreed

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Jan 21, 2011 4:57 PM MST up reply actions  

and you know what orton's mantra is?

laughing at tebow for doing extra wind sprints. now there is a leader if i’ve ever seen one. orton knows his days are numbered, and you, myself and all the rest of the nation that realizes there IS NO qb controversy in denver can sleep well at night. it’s all the rest (you know, the handful of guys) that are going to be the ones having a hard time 1) letting go of orton.. 2) coming to grips with the fact that they are / were wrong on this one and 3) getting to sleep at night because they just refuse to move past the orton debacle. another year with orton at the helm is just another year wasted as far as i’m concerned.

Shakespeare sang air on air, so I sung. Shakespeare turned dust to dust, so to my life.

by grind_core on Jan 23, 2011 11:40 PM MST up reply actions  

I especially agree with your last point, unless they think Orton has a future here, I see no benefit of him playing next year.

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 23, 2011 11:49 PM MST up reply actions  

But maybe the coaches will disagree with you. Elway, Fox, and McCoy all have indicated that NO one will be just given the job at any position on the team, including QB. And none would commit that Tebow will start.

Now, if the Broncos become competitive on defense, as Dennis Allen said today, and the running game can improve, as the O-line has shown signs of gelling and Moreno is showing what he’s made of, then the Broncos just might become competitive. If that is the case, then I wonder if they would be interested in possibly sacrificing some game by breaking in a raw rookie, who still isn’t good in the pocket, over the QB who was playing on a Pro Bowl, record-shattering pace through 13 games last year.

We need to use some common sense here (and don’t take me wrong: I’m not saying you aren’t). Even Elway had some glowing words for Orton in his last interview on “87.7 The Ticket” when he reminded that Orton was breaking records through 13 games, implying that he should not be counted out.

So, while the majority of fandom and the media seems to be assuming that Tebow is the starter from now on, the Front Office doesn’t seem so sure. So, to me, it’s more like we’ll wait and see . . .
-

BILLY THOMPSON GOT SHAFTED!!

by AZDynamics on Jan 26, 2011 6:07 PM MST up reply actions  

It is going to be

very interesting next year if Tebow gets the start and we don’t have any improvement in defense.
Of course if Fox and company do make improvements and we do play better I am sure all of the credit will be given to Tebow.
Seriously guys, He is only one player. He played great, he inspired the team. We get it! BUT THEY STILL LOST

Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.

by Sean in Pa. on Jan 24, 2011 8:10 AM MST up reply actions  

Agreed, sorta.

Tom Brady would not have won with our D this year, but if the D does get better our chances improve even more with Tebow for the future. BTW, i do like Orton, don’t believe he was a waste, just feel Tebow will be the future for us. At this point it is all about the D getting better.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Jan 25, 2011 3:16 PM MST up reply actions  

true

another year here with Orton will be a waste

by Calikula on Jan 24, 2011 4:58 PM MST up reply actions  

I have waited such a long time for a posting like this

The quality of this particular work ranks amongst the best I have read on MHR, going back to the days of Doc Bear and many of the contributors who are now over at IAOFM.

Your thoughts are well presented and balanced on every subject you touch on within the overall theme.

Articles like this were the reason I came to MHR in the first place, when there used to be two or three of this level every week. Thanks for renewing my faith in this site, something that has been waning due to the feudal infighting that takes place here.

Significantly the vast majority of comments for your article do not include the regular “one line, bite your head off”comment makers but have attracted those who have also put forward their own well constructed arguments.

I hope we get to see a lot more of this – Thanks

I have so many friends some I haven't even used yet

by BlobTheMagnificent on Jan 21, 2011 1:06 AM MST reply actions   3 recs

Real world

I’m sorry but people on this blog don’t live in the real world. It’s Broncos football 365 days a year

by Baghdad on Jan 21, 2011 3:50 AM MST reply actions  

I Love Defense

and hate glamour football (great phrase, by the way). Give me a 17-10 nail biter over a 36-27 bombs away any day. It may be worst for the heart but a lot more fun to watch.

broncorat

by broncorat on Jan 21, 2011 7:37 AM MST reply actions  

I grew up the same way

I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.

by Topher Doll on Jan 21, 2011 1:11 PM MST up reply actions  

Awesome Article

Well said in regards to John Fox’s style of fundamental football vs Josh McD’s glamour style.
Despite McD reinterating that he wanted smart, tough football players, his personnel choices was very lacking. I used to be a McD fan given that he came from the Belichick tree of “team” first mentality and his “amoeba” offense however after hearing his comments directed towards the Broncos organization that he was glad that the Rams had a sense of direction and he knew what his role was…I am glad that he’s gone.

In regards to the CBA, you are correct that the owners this time will not succomb and will get their larger piece of the billon dollar pie. The player have no choice but to blink first because they have the most to lose.

by tedwin on Jan 21, 2011 7:49 AM MST reply actions  

I hope Fox is not going to rely solely on "fundamentals and grit"

That kind of team will lose to a team that is fundamentally sound, gritty AND innovative every time. I also hope he doesn’t devalue the QB position in favor of “defense and runners”. That kind of model may get you to a playoff level team but teams that make it over the top make the QB position a priority.

Also, the $16.5M figure is a little misleading. Most of Tebow’s $8M in 2011 is advances on future year’s salary so the team is essentially paying him his next three year’s salary in one year.

by admill on Jan 21, 2011 8:23 AM MST reply actions   1 recs

Right on!

Both on the salary piece (I make the same point above), and on the stupid love for “fundamentals and grit.”

I also think Fox will surprise us in how “innovative” he actually is. The one thing he has always done is tailor his offense to his personnel to his talent. Remember a few years ago when he was running a package where DeWilliams was running as QB?

Basically, while I think Fox will emphasize fundamentals, etc., I am less convinced he is a “3 yards and a cloud of dust” coach. I think he played that style because it matched the talent he had (good RBs and strong run-blocking line). But he has also never been afraid of throwing downfield (see Steve Smith’s huge years), and has often tried crazy formations, etc. to suit the talent he had.

Given Denver’s current offensive talent is stacked more towards a eagles/patriots-esque pass-first team, don’t be surprised if that continues on here in 2011.

by cjfarls on Jan 21, 2011 11:24 AM MST up reply actions  

Thoughts on Tebow and John Fox from a Gators fan

This past season has been difficult for me to watch, mainly because I’m not used to rooting for a team that loses a lot. Being a Gators fan has spoiled us rotten, they rarely lose (winningest FBS/Div 1A team in the past 20 years.) However, I know it’s even worse for you lifelong Broncos fans.

I was intrigued with who the new coach will be and if he’d be the one to help Tebow become as successful as he was in college. I really thought McDaniels would be the one, considering his pedigree and former mentor and the fact that he drafted Tebow in the first round. Goodness, how wrong we were.

The more I read about Coach Fox, the more I am liking the hire. At first I was uncertain about if he’d be good for the Broncos, and essentially Tebow himself. Reading this article, learning more about Coach Fox, I’m even MORE excited. You see, Urban Meyer knew that in order for Tebow and the Gators to be successful, he needed to ensure they had a killer offensive line. Starting with the Pouncey twins was the first major step. Tebow, given time, can really hurt a team with his arm or legs. Of course this is the case with any quality QB, but it’s magnified with Tebow for his ability to create something awesome out of nothing.

Additionally, to spread the field, Meyer chose speedy running backs that would force the LB’s off the line and gave Tebow running room. Even if he came into contact after 3 yards, because of his strength and sheer willpower, he’d easily turn that into a 5, 6, or 7 yard gain. Having the LB’s back helps that to happen. In 2007, Tebow had to basically carry the team on his shoulders, passing and running, eventually winning the Heisman. However, the Gators lost a lot of games that year. They were too predictable. In 2008, with a stout OL and, more importantly, speedy running backs in Jeff Demp and Chris Rainey, Tebow was able to do major damage when he had to do things on his own. That’s why they were able to win the BCS National Championship that year.

So yeah, a run-first offense is the best way to go for Tebow to be successful, which in turn means the Broncos winning more games. Of course it requires a good team overall, especially a real good defense. That gives Tebow more opportunity to make things happen, score more often, or at least keep field position in a positive place.

It’s perfect, don’t focus on the QB, focus on the RB’s, O-line, defense, and Tebow will help take care of the rest. I’m especially looking forward to seeing Doom back in action, and I hope Dawkins can go back to being the dominating force that he used to be, even though he’s getting up there in years. I’m very happy that Tebow is a Broncos, it just feels like a perfect fit for him. Orange and Blue once more, the fans are overwhelmingly dedicated and passionate through rain and shine, and it has an amazing hometown hero in John Elway. Perhaps it’s a divine appointment!

by mattjb on Jan 21, 2011 11:15 PM MST reply actions  

for what it is worth, it looks like it was posted here first

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 22, 2011 1:10 AM MST up reply actions  

and I think it was the same guy, at least he has the same profile pic

Bring back Champ

by plainview88 on Jan 22, 2011 1:13 AM MST up reply actions  

Wow, I am impressed you found this on B/R

That’s a testament to either your thoroughness or B/R’s strength in getting articles out there.

My name is Stephen Rabon and I am the author of both of them. Everything I write is meant for MHR, but I wanted to try and get a different perspective, namely the perspective of the general Internet. MHR as a whole is a very constructive community and I wanted to see the kind of reaction I got from a non-Bronco oriented audience. You’ll notice I changed some of the article to match that audience.

Still, MHR is my Bronco home. I read and post here first, always. Nice catch winked.

GB2

by BroncoPH on Jan 22, 2011 3:33 PM MST up reply actions  

What is effective communication...

…making a point or points using the fewest words possible OR making the same point or points using the most words possible? Oh, I know, some (if not many) of you here might try to totally justify, rationalize, and/or reconcile wordiness, and that’s fine…for you.

On the other hand, I actually believe that for those, who are, indeed, too wordy, are such because they fancy themselves “Mighty with the Written Word,” and so believe that writing with as many words possible makes them look brighter than their peers, who might write with the fewest words possible. Well, being wordy no more makes one look like an intellectual than using a few words makes another look like a simpleton.

Why do you think that teachers teach that the art of effective communication is saying what one has to say in the most concise manner possible, or why effective preachers are especially mindful not to write overly-lengthy sermons? And is it not a fact that research has already been done, which has demonstrated that attention spans actually decrease after a certain point?

[I could go “on, and on, and on,” of course, but that’s my point.]

by 9798 on Jan 23, 2011 9:53 AM MST reply actions  

I appreciate that feedback 9798

It’s definitely something I intend to get better at in the future.

GB2

by BroncoPH on Jan 23, 2011 10:51 AM MST up reply actions  

This wasn't just directed at you, BroncoPH...

…it was also meant for all those too wordy, which MHR seems to have more than their fair share of.

by 9798 on Jan 23, 2011 3:48 PM MST up reply actions  

Meh, disagree....

If it’s too wordy for you don’t read it. I mean who’s to say what’s too wordy and what’s just right. I’ve seen plenty of posts that are very lengthy and some that are amazingly redundant but I’ve never thought that the posters should be reprimanded for length. Personally I thought BroncoPh’s post was an excellent read. Gotta learn to appreciate the unique differences that each member here brings 9798….it’s what makes MHR great!

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 23, 2011 4:37 PM MST up reply actions  

In terms of becoming better writers

9798 has a point, and it is sage advice: concision is a virtue. But the major thing here is building and maintaining a community, so any writing advice should be accepted and given in the spirit supporting one another.

Change your opinions, keep to your principles; change your leaves, keep intact your roots.

by Jeremy Bolander on Jan 23, 2011 10:27 PM MST up reply actions  

Agreed that the major thing is building community. Ergo my response.

Most who post here probably aren’t necessarily trying to hone their writing skills however. Kudos to broncoPH for accepting 9798’s critique with class.

"as in football so in life"

by asinsoin on Jan 24, 2011 11:57 AM MST up reply actions  

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