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Quarterback Comparison


With all the quarterback discussions here and at other popular sports cites, I decided to do some research to understand the performances of all the young quarterbacks starting for their team. For this study, all of them were drafted from 2008 to 2011.

This isn't a quarterback bashing or Tim Tebow obsession article. Instead, I wanted to know how good all of these quarterbacks had been over their careers to this point.

Star-divide

Before I dive into the numbers, let me first define "good". Most fans view football through the lens of visuals, meaning, by what they see.

If they see a defensive end rush the passer and force the quarterback into bad throws all day long, but only registers 1 QB hit and 0 sacks, then these fans will claim the eyes saw a great performance that did not show up in the stat sheet.

In this case, they would be absolutely correct.

However, that was only one game. In statistics, there is a rule that when given a sample of any size, 15 truly random data points are enough to give an accurate generalization of the whole sample.

For example, if there are 100 students in a classroom, and 15 of them are picked at random, then the percentages for race, sex, height, weight and anything else will closely resemble the actual percentages. As the number of truly random data points in the sample increases towards the sample size, it becomes increasingly more accurate.

For the purpose of this study, 1 data point equals 1 quarter of play. In other words, a quarterback will need to play almost four full games (15 quarters) to generate an accurate quarterback rating.

In the case of the defensive end above, there are only 4 data points in that game. It is much more likely that a defensive end who is that effective will indeed register sacks and quarterback hits in future games. Instead of looking at each game as a unique and separate event, it is often times better to look at it as it relates to all of the related events, or games, in this instance.

With this in mind, I have studied 11 quarterbacks drafted since 2008 that are starting for their teams.

Here are the quarterbacks, by year:

  1. Matt Ryan - 2008
  2. Joe Flacco - 2008
  3. Matthew Stafford - 2009
  4. Mark Sanchez - 2009
  5. Josh Freeman - 2009
  6. Sam Bradford - 2010
  7. Tim Tebow - 2010
  8. Colt McCoy - 2010
  9. Cam Newton - 2011
  10. Blaine Gabbert - 2011
  11. Andy Dalton - 2011

For quarterbacks drafted in 2008-2009, more is expected of them since they have more experience than the quarterbacks drafted in the last two years.

The other interesting note is Andy Dalton and Colt McCoy are the only quarterbacks not drafted in the first round.

Of all of these quarterbacks, Matt Ryan, Matthew Stafford, Sam Bradford and Cam Newton have all been expected to start immediately and perform at a high level.

Joe Flacco, Mark Sanchez, Blaine Gabbert and Andy Dalton had less expectations before the draft that heightened during training camp and preseason.

Of the group, the expectations for Tebow and McCoy have been the lowest, considering Tebow's mechanics and McCoy's draft status.

In the end, whether right or wrong, each of them is a starter and has been asked to play as effectively as possible. I am not going to compare wins and losses because while Ryan and Flacco have won at a higher rate than the rest, much of that does have to do with the talent around them.

With this in mind, I created a quarterback rating that does two things:

  • Measures efficiency through percentages instead of volume numbers
  • Measures crucial elements that can quantify a quarterback's effectiveness

The key part of this is "effectiveness". This means while a quarterback might be perceived as "good" or "talented", he may not be as effective. Quarterbacks that are effective for a sustained period of time are viewed as good.

Here are the 5 key elements to the rating and the reasoning behind it:

  1. Completion Percentage: # of completions / number of thrown passes * 100. Go and look at the top 10 quarterbacks in the NFL any given year and count have many complete less than 62-63 percent of their passes. Regardless of their mechanics, good quarterbacks are accurate.
  2. Touchdown Percentage: ( # of passing touchdowns + # rushing touchdowns ) / ( # of thrown passes + # of rushing attempts) * 600. This simply takes the percentage of touchdowns and gives it a weighted value to make the formula work. Good quarterback play results in touchdowns. Yards are overrated. Teams that throw for over 300 yards barely win more than half of their games.
  3. Turnover Percentage: the same as touchdown percentage. Teams that lose the turnover battle lose over 80 percent of the time.
  4. Sack Percentage: # of sacks / (number of passes thrown + rushing attempts + sacks) * 100. This is actually a true percentage. Regardless of whether a sack is the QB's fault or the offensive line's fault, it still happened and it had a negative effect on the play of the quarterback. While sacks are a good way to measure the success of an offensive line, they are also a good way to measure the performance of a quarterback.
  5. Yards Per Attempt: gross passing yards / passes thrown. Since sacks are already measured, there is no point in measuring it twice by using net passing yards (this subtracts the yards lost by a sack from the gross passing yard total). Teams that struggle to pass over 7 yards per throw tend to struggle mightily on offense.

Is this formula perfect? No, not really. However, it takes into account every major aspect of quarterback play, and for this study, I will use it to analyze each quarterback.

To understand this rating better, here is a breakdown of how quarterbacks of varying levels of talent and effectiveness fair:

  • 100 and Above: Hall Of Fame
  • 90-99.9: Elite Level
  • 80-89.9: Pro-Bowl Worthy
  • 70-79.9: Decent Starter
  • 69.9 and Below: Not Starter Material

Here is a chart that details the career ratings for each quarterback

 

Player Year Games Acc Tds Tos Sck YPA Rating
Tim Tebow* 2 5 48.3 11 3 13 7.6 77.8
Cam Newton 1 7 60.3 15 9 14 8.3 75.9
Andy Dalton 1 6 62.4 8 5 10 6.9 73.6
Matt Ryan 4 53 60.8 79 51 77 6.9 72.8
Joe Flacco 4 54 60.7 72 50 121 7.1 68.9
Matt Stafford 3 20 56.6 38 27 42 6.4 66.4
Josh Freeman 3 33 59.5 44 39 57 6.8 64.2
Colt McCoy 2 14 58.2 15 14 36 6.2 59.1
Sam Bradford 2 21 58.3 22 23 55 6.0 57.3
Mark Sanchez 3 38 54.7 49 47 69 6.6 56.8
Blaine Gabbert 1 6 48.3 4 4 18 5.7 44.1

 

*Tebow's numbers come from the 4 games he started last year and this year, as well as the entire second half against San Diego.

A few observations:

  • Only Andy Dalton can be considered an accurate quarterback. This is the biggest criticism for Tebow and Gabbert in their young careers. However, Sanchez has struggled mightily and would like be benched if it wasn't for two AFC Championship game appearances.
  • The top 4 quarterbacks have a ratio of TDs:TOs greater than 1.5:1. For those of you who believe Matt Ryan is better than Flacco, this supports you theory the best, where he has 7 more touchdowns and only 1 more turnover.
  • Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, Matt Ryan and Josh Freeman are the only ones that get sacked under 5% of their passing plays. Even with an all-pro offensive line for most of his career, Sanchez has been sacked 5.5 percent of the time. That number should be lower. In Tebow's first 3.5 games, he was sacked only 6 times, making this past week's performance an outlier.
  • Only Newton, Tebow and Flacco have a YPA over 7. Good quarterbacks can stretch the field and hit the big play, which these three have done routinely in their very brief careers. The biggest knock on Bradford is he simply struggles to stretch the field. In both seasons, he has averaged 6 yards per pass. If he is going to justify his draft position and contract he needs to improve in this are the most.

Outlook:

None of the quarterbacks above have been effective for a sustained period of time. I would go as far to say Bradford and Sanchez have done very little to justify being top 5 picks.

As much as I dislike Cam Newton (almost on the same level as Phillip Rivers), he has been much more effective that anticipated. However, unlike Tebow, he has great mechanics and yet has performed far worse with 8 touchdown passes and 9 interceptions and fumbles. Tebow currently has 7 passing touchdowns and 3 interceptions.

 

To compare with the career chart, here is a chart that details the 2011 ratings for each quarterback

 

Player Year Games Acc Tds Tos Sck YPA Rating
Matt Stafford 2011 7 60.2 16 4 14 7.1 88.6
Tim Tebow 2010-2011 5 48.3 11 3 13 7.6 77.8
Cam Newton 2011 7 60.3 15 9 14 8.3 75.9
Andy Dalton 2011 6 62.4 8 5 10 6.9 73.6
Mark Sanchez 2011 7 55.8 14 10 16 6.7 66.2
Colt McCoy 2011 6 56.0 8 5 13 5.5 63.5
Josh Freeman 2011 7 61.5 9 10 9 6.4 63.0
Matt Ryan 2011 7 61.1 11 11 18 6.7 61.6
Joe Flacco 2011 6 52.1 9 8 13 6.7 56.0
Blaine Gabbert 2011 6 48.3 4 4 18 5.7 44.1
Sam Bradford 2011 5 53.1 3 6 21 6.0 41.0

 

A Few Observations

The purpose of this chart is to see if any of these quarterbacks are showing improvement this season.

  • 5 Quarterbacks are completing over 60 percent of their passes (a must), but only Dalton is in the 62-63 range. Again, veterans Bradford, Flacco, and Sanchez are truly struggling and are running out of excuses.
  • Stafford has finally lived up to the hype that surround him when he was drafted. He has outperformed every quarterback on this list, and his touchdowns to turnovers ratio is a big reason why. Even with all the criticism for Sanchez, he has definitely shown improvement this year, with a 1.4:1 ratio.
  • Only Dalton and Freeman are on pace to have fewer than 30 sacks for the season. For the most part, these quarterbacks are being sacked way too often. Yes, the offensive line plays a part, but the best quarterbacks in the league are capable of avoiding sacks with good decisions.
  • While Stafford isn't overwhelming defenses with down the field passes, his 7.1 YPA is much improved over his average during his first 2 years. Cam Newton has attempted the 2nd most down-field passes and has definitely benefited from Steve Smith. Still, he has an excellent average of 8.3, which is on par with the best quarterbacks in the NFL. For Tebow, this number would be so much higher if he could complete more of his passes. Still, he has demonstrated the ability to stretch the field.
  • They deserve to have a bullet all for themselves. Flacco and Ryan and simply been terrible this season. they have both regressed, and have only demonstrated at times why there are starting material.

Outlook:

The reality is only Stafford is playing well. The biggest question mark for him has always been health. This season, he has shown he is more than capable of playing at a high level.

Despite all the hype and emotion behind Tebow and Newton, they both have a long way to go. Tebow is a more efficient quarterback than Newton because he makes fewer mistakes, but Newton is more consistent. The reality is Tebow is much worse than Newton at times, but is also outperforms him tremendously almost as often.

There is hope for Sanchez who is finally putting together at least a respectable season.

I am most impressed with Andy Dalton, and not because I followed him more than any other college quarterback when he was at TCU, but because he has shown great maturation for a rookie. While he is overshadowed by Newton, Dalton is a much superior passer and if not for the rushing ability of Newton, would be the runaway rookie of the year in many voters' eyes.

Summary

I know this was a long review, but I felt it was necessary to put these quarterbacks performances into perspective. There is a different between being "good for a rookie" and simply being "good". To show how far these quarterbacks have to go here are the ratings for some of the top QB's in the NFL.

If you take out the first game by Ben Roethlisberger, where he and the Pittsburgh offense simply played the worst game this season, he has been extremely effective. Peyton Manning is also not playing this season and normally has a rating over 90.

This just goes to show that there are many quarterbacks each year that play at a high level, and the young quarterbacks in the charts above (except Stafford in 2011) have a long way to go before they can been considered effective quarterbacks.

This is not to criticize some of the younger quarterbacks, but simply to put it into the proper context.

Here is hoping Tebow can begin to put it all together in the coming weeks. He will be facing the team with the most effective, young quarterback. I believe he will be up to the challenge.

Go Broncos!

Poll
Of the starting quarterbacks with less than 4 years of experience, how many is Tebow most likely to outperform?
About One Third Or Less
46 votes
About One Half
69 votes
About Two Thirds
74 votes
Almost All Of Them
134 votes
Not sure
12 votes

335 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 93 comments  |  16 recs  | 

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Awesome post, intel

It makes justice to your nickname!

This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.

by Fabio Broncos on Oct 27, 2011 10:31 AM MDT reply actions  

And let me make an add here..

It’s great you comparing him to other similar QBs.

We can’t compare him with Rodgers (for me the current best QB) who could learn the game for 3years… with P.Manning and his 12 or 13 seasons… with Tom Brady, and etc.

I know this is not a Tebow post, and I really don’t like them. Just saying it becayse a lot of fans (and MSM) just look at Tebow and want him to play like a veteran proven pro bowler QB. And it is impossible. People can’t expect either any of this list to do it! We must compare them with each other of the same “class”, just like you did. Awesome post, just I said above.

This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.

by Fabio Broncos on Oct 27, 2011 10:38 AM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks

I had been silent over the whole issue this season because I wanted to be as objective as possible and avoid confrontation. I hope everyone here at MHR will try to remain as objective as possible 6 days of the week when they are contributing to this site and with family and friends.

On gameday, you get a pass to let loose all that enthusiasm and "fanhood" and direct it towards the "enemy". :)

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 10:46 AM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

We need to give the Lions our best shot

if everyone executes, I think it will be sufficient!

Brad James

Follow me on Twitter

With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!

by the new Bradfather on Oct 27, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think my comment will have much to do with this great post, but just adding my thought: I think our OLine will be the key to win this game

If they struggle to push (unlikely) and lacks in pass protection (this concerns me a lot), we’ll lose….

If they can do a good job, we have good chances.

This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.

by Fabio Broncos on Oct 27, 2011 12:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

just my $0.02

But, i think the line hasn’t really learned how to block for Tebow yet.

Its much more difficult because you have to hold the block longer, while not committing a penalty. Tebow is “wild and crazy kids” so you never know if he is going to take of running, or if that called quick screen is going to be a SLOW screen, and then they are ineligible down field… Its a tricky thing for the line, but i think with some continuity they will become much better at blocking for him.

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

A big part of that is timed throws.

Orton would get the ball out quickly, so the line is used to holding blocks for 3-5 seconds….in the end Tebow will make them much better blockers. ;)

by Tim Lynch on Oct 27, 2011 1:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree, you just stated it much better

Its difficult now, because the lineman have no idea what he will do.

Hopefully, after a few starts they get into a rhythm with him, and know that if he doesn’t throw in 3-4 seconds all bets are off and they might as well turn into run blockers at that point.

Plus, it doesn’t help having a rookie run-blocker guarding his blindside in pass protection

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with you guys

This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.

by Fabio Broncos on Oct 27, 2011 2:39 PM MDT up reply actions  

Like the Touchdowns Category

Always seems unfair when rushing td’s are completely left out of the equation. They count, just like passing td’s do. Great post.

by The Fall Guy on Oct 27, 2011 10:34 AM MDT reply actions  

One of the reasons

Is that you can simply give it to a running back. Yes, extending plays, if all units covered run it in is certainly applicable, but in the end, RB’s are for running, QB’s are for throwing. (and moving an offense, but still)

Thus, can the qb throw it. Thus, running is a bonus for qb’s but it’s not the first or third thing any evaluator should stress.

by Gelder on Oct 27, 2011 2:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Amazing post

I really like how it explains how Tebow can have a high rating without being that accurate. I’d love to have an analysis on some of the top quarterbacks’ early numbers compared with Tebow in this same way, and also a look at how often accuracy improves over time. See what happens when you give me an inch of great content?

None of us go out and play for stats. You just do whatever you can to help the team out. -- Eddie Royal

by Poster_Formerly_Known_As_Royal_Fan on Oct 27, 2011 10:57 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

Nothing to do with this story, just need some help...

I need to change my profile name “rubencarterrocks” to the proper spelling of “Rubin”, I see no way to do that in the edit page. Is this possible and how? thanks in advance for the assist.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Oct 27, 2011 11:04 AM MDT reply actions  

contact John Bena

Kyle Orton is the Tin Man....No heart, can't move and the oil can is too far away!

by mdierk on Oct 27, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

thanks for pointing me in the right direction mdierk! all done.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany."

by rubincarterrocks on Oct 27, 2011 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good job

Finally a fair comparison of similarly experienced QBs.

The fact is all of them have a long way to go. Some of them will turn out good, some serviceable, some will fail. At this stage, it’s too early to tell.

by FresnoKevin on Oct 27, 2011 11:16 AM MDT reply actions   1 recs

I would be nice if we could messure how long it takes a QB to get rid of the ball

The sack thing can be a confusing stat…was it the O-line, the D-line, the QB, the blitzers, the blitz pick-ups(rb’s and such) or was it a coverage sack(which is either the secondary’s fault or the bad wr’s. Very hard to say who’s fault it was, by just looking at the numbers.

I think a lot of these guys will be good for their teams, NONE of them look like total flops(akili smith)

And btw I think Von Miller is gonna have something to say about that rookie of the year trophy!!

by alkatraz76 on Oct 27, 2011 11:20 AM MDT reply actions  

There is a Defensive Rookie and Offensive Rookie if I am not mistaken.

Walter Sobchak: "Also, let's not forget - let's *not* forget, Dude - that keeping wildlife, an amphibious rodent, for uh, domestic, you know, within the city - that aint legal either. "

by lakebuff on Oct 27, 2011 11:28 AM MDT up reply actions  

Excellent study.

Thank you for laying it all out for us. I wonder if this accounts for rushing statistics. Tebow brings something more than most QBs with his running abilities…

by Tim Lynch on Oct 27, 2011 11:32 AM MDT reply actions  

Newton too, of course

While rushing yards aren’t in the mix, the poster said that he considered rushing TDs.

Maya: "What are your first impressions of Denver?"
Mozgov: "I must break you..."

by margabelle on Oct 27, 2011 12:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

While the numbers make Tebow look good

I think its way to early for a post like this. Tebow has only started five games, which is nowhere near the correct sample size to compare him to the rest of the quarterbacks you mentioned above since most of them have started 20+ games. Also, you chose to use ESPN’s Quarterback Rating, which isn’t a measure of a passer’s efficiency as much as it is about measuring a passer’s effect on the game.

Either way, I think its way to early to say whether or not Tebow is going to be good or bad.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Oct 27, 2011 12:26 PM MDT reply actions  

I agree on the too soon part

The OP stated if you take 15 RANDOM points, it will give you a general idea. While I agree with this, Tebow, Dalton a Newton’s points are anything but Random. Moreso with Tebow. I mean, he only has 17 quarters so far of play time, thus how much of this is truly random? I would say more time would be a better indicator to get a better idea. This would be a great post to revisit AFTER the season with new data.

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A: To Dolphin Stadium - they never get a touchdown there.

by Broncs55 on Oct 27, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thanks for the critique

However, any conclusion made about Tebow is no less accurate than Cam Newton, Andy Dalton or Blaine Gabbert, considering all of them lack serious amounts of experience.

Finally, this rating is not even close to EPSN’s total quarterback rating. In Week 6 against Atlanta, Newton threw for 0 touchdowns and 3 interceptions on 21/35 passing and 237 yards. He ran 7 times for 48 yards and 1 touchdown. Yet despite a horrible game by most standards, he gets a ESPN QBR rating of 81.

No matter who is judging, 60 percent accuracy is simply average. 1 touchdown to 3 turnovers is awful. 6.8 YPA is not good at all. the only thing saving him from a truly horrendous rating (or performance) is he was only sacked 1 time.

According to ESPN, Newton had his best performance of the year with a rating of 81.0.
According to my formula, he had a rating of 35.9. ESPN’s rating and my rating have very little in common.

This example is not a Cam Newton bash, it is simply one of the largest discrepancies between their formula and mine.

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

I would be curious to know what your formula is for QBR

I agree that it’s way too early to judge ANY quarterback that was drafted in 2011, especially Tebow and Newton since they rely on their legs so much to make plays. It will be interesting to see how the two react next year when defensive coordinators have had a full offseason to sit down, breakdown and prepare defensive packages specifically designed to stop guys like those two.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Oct 27, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

anyone can be schemed against...

DC have known for ages that the more pressure you get on Peyton, the worse he plays.

Didn’t keep him from wrecking shop on the league for 10+ seasons… I would argue that it doesn’t matter what they do to prepare for you, you just have to do twice as much to prepare for them. I know Tim is willing to work for it, but is McCoy good enough to help him gameplan for different defenses, or will we see 45+ “up the middle” runs again.

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:01 PM MDT up reply actions  

True

but the point I was making is that players like Tebow and Newton call for special types of scheming…not like the usual stuff. You can’t blitz them the way you would blitz a standard NFL quarterback, so defenses have to find ways to get pressure without leaving running lanes open, which takes time and is very dependent on the quarterback’s tendencies.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Oct 27, 2011 1:05 PM MDT up reply actions  

so basically

Your saying SUH is the Tebow/Newton killer because he certainly is a force.

Besides, if we come out it max protect, you wont have to worry about Tebow running, because he wont have room regardless of how well your d-line plays. He can get out of the pocket, and virtually runs into sacks….

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

Sigh

Stop putting words in my mouth, I’ve already had lunch.

I said NOTHING of Suh up there. All I said was that it’s tougher to scheme against mobile quarterbacks, so it takes more time to find the right scheme to play against them, so I would be more interested in seeing how guys like Newton and Tebow fare in 2012 as compared to right now. Remember, Vince Young started out great back in his rookie season, but progressively got worse as teams got more and more game tape on him.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Oct 27, 2011 1:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

you said the key was getting pressure without committing extra rushers...

Is that not what a defensive lineman as dominant as SUH allows you to do?

Secondly, you cant compare Vince to Tim because the work ethic wasn’t there with Young, and we all no that if Tebow does nothing else, he works. Young got schemed against, i don’t think it will be so easy to scheme against Tebow, because he will work to out-scheme you.

Im not sure why you are getting so uppity, i wasn’t trying to put words in your mouth.

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

no, sorry

that’s just a phrase that’s stuck with me ever since someone pulled it on in a debate

But anyways, scheming and having great players are two really different things. Tim Tebow will have plenty of running lanes against the Lions if the Lions play their standard Wide 9 as that leaves gaps to be filled up the OLBs. It’s not so much about leaving extra guys to account for Tebow or Newton or Young as much as it is about making them do things they are not used to doing, which could just be shifting a defense to the strongside, so that the QB is forced to run on the weakside instead.

Secondly, I’m not comparing Tebow and Young. Young is a dirt bag. I was just pointing out how Young’s production dropped as teams got more accustomed to his uniqueness as a player. Tebow is a hard worker and has been a hard worker. He has been working on his throwing motion forever now, yet it pretty much looks the same to me. Some things you can’t coach out of a player and no amount of hard work can change that: it’s what makes them successful and fail at the same time.

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Oct 27, 2011 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

I understand what you're saying as far as Young comparison

But my point is, he relied on his uniqueness. And when it started getting taken away he crumbled, which is sad because he had other tools, he just didn’t care to implement them. He figured he was good enough to out talent the scheme. I just can’t see Tebow taking the same approach.

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

cant^

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:13 PM MDT up reply actions  

As always

the ESPN methodology is inferior

Brad James

Follow me on Twitter

With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!

by the new Bradfather on Oct 27, 2011 2:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'll make a deal with you

Go to any major stat-based website and find a quarterback rating system that gives Newton a positive grade for that game. When you find one, let me know.

The current NFL.com passer rating gives him a score of 44.6, which some people might know by now is barely above the 39.6 score you can get by throwing incomplete passes on every attempt.

ProFootballFocus (PFF) gave him a grade of 62.93 compared to Matt Ryan’s 88.22 for that game. PFF also said “For Cam Newton himself, the reality is he does an awful lot of things well, but this game showed his less refined side. Poor accuracy and decisions with the football cost his team”.

I don’t have a problem with ESPN’s QBR because I dislike their professionalism or out of pure envy. Their system simply is way too flawed to be taken seriously.

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

I actually have perused NFL.com

on the subject and it assuredly gives Matt Ryan a higher rating of the game in question, which it should as he did not turn the ball over but yes, I see why you’re saying ESPN’s system is flawed. I scarcely go to ESPN for anything these days, save it be the Monday Night game every night and once the lockout ends, the NBA.

Brad James

Follow me on Twitter

With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!

by the new Bradfather on Oct 27, 2011 3:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree, the sample size is way too small.

First let me say that I am a big Tebow supporter. That being said, you cannot take a sample size of 4.5 games and divide it by 4 and say that you have over 15 events. An event is a game and the the reason for requiring 15 events (games) in your sample is so that other influences become normalized, such as weather, quality of opponent, injuries, direction of wind ,etc. One quarter of QB play as an event is not valid. You could just as easily use a single play as an event and I don’t think anyone would try to draw conclusions from 15 plays.

Way too many issued with using quarters as a single occuence. Things that normalize over games could really sway a quarters statistics. 4th qtr game could be out of reach and all stats are garbage against prevent defense. The opponent has a long drive and uses the majority of the clock. You get a turnover and get great field popsition. All of these types of thing would significantly skew a quarters stats but would be more normalized over a game and certainly over 15 games.

by Broncos or Golf? on Oct 27, 2011 12:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

The reason for this is simple

Quarterbacks, and teams for that matter, that have played at least 4 games tend to play similarly for the rest of the year. Yes, teams improve and players get healthy, but it is meant as a generalization.

Even though Kansas City has won their last 3 games, their offense has been atrocious. Even though they defeated Oakland, their OFFENSE only scored 14 points. Denver struggled on offense the first four games, and it has continued into week 7.

New England and Green Bay’s defenses were susceptible to the pass in the first four games, and that has continued. I have done the research and can promise you that after week 4, or 16 quarters of play, teams tend to play the same way. All the ups and downs still revert to the mean. They are simply more accurate after 16 weeks than 4.

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 12:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

We disagree

Even intuitively, it seems like 4 starts by a QB is way too small of a sample size to evaluate a young QB’s performance.

What I am saying is that your sample size for Tebow only has 4 random data points. You cannot divide into quarters of play. It is too small of a sample size to generate valid results.

by Broncos or Golf? on Oct 27, 2011 12:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

No offense to you my man

but the following is the exact opposite of how things work in the NFL:

Quarterbacks, and teams for that matter, that have played at least 4 games tend to play similarly for the rest of the year. Yes, teams improve and players get healthy, but it is meant as a generalization.

NFL teams, like all other teams, ride winning streaks and losing streaks. If you wanna use Kansas City as an example, well then I’m going to mention how Matt Cassel had a TD-INT ratio of 3-5 in their first three games, and has a 5-2 ratio in the last three

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Oct 27, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah this is why I don't post too often

The problem is I am not using 4 data points this year to define a career. I am using it to define 2011. Let me use an analogy.

If I wanted to use enough statistics to measure Tebow’s performance for a game, I wouldn’t use 1 drive. On drive A, he may go 1-4 for 7 yards, while on Drive B, he may go 2-2 for 14 yards. Instead, I will take all of his passes and say he went 10-19…. That’s how it works.

If I want to state how a quarterback is performing in 2011, I take his first 4 games, where the stats actually begin to average out. I don’t take his performance in Quarter 1 of Game 1, Quarter 2 of Game 2….. Instead I used all of the games played so far in 2011, with the knowledge that 16 quarters are indeed enough, even if you don’t think they are. For Tebow, his numbers in only 6 quarters of 2011 (9 less than the 15 I would like) are still in line with the 12 quarters he played last year in terms of accuracy touchdowns, turnovers and yards per attempt. Therefore, it actually is appropriate to include last year’s performances with this years. In the end, I know that by week 17, I have arrived at the “perfectly accurate” 2011 peformance

Finally, if I wanted to measure a Quarterback’s career, I would take his first 4 years and see if there is a trend upward or the same with the knowledge that the more seasons, the more accurate.

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 1:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ok, my last response

I am not trying to be an ass and I do appreciate the work you put into your analysis and article.

It was not clear to me that you were just trying to project (define) Tebow’s performance for only 2011. I guess I was confused when other QB’s had several years of data points. I am easily confused but it also confused me that you mixed the years and was just trying to draw conclusions over 2011 not a career.

Anyway thanks for the thought provoking article

by Broncos or Golf? on Oct 27, 2011 1:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

I appreciate your work intel

I will admit that I’m not so sure the 4 games as an accurate sample for the year is true when dealing with younger players whose pro experience increases at a much higher rate earlier in their careers, but it is all we have on Tebow at the moment so it works for me. I hope to see an updated version of this chart at the end of the year. I like your formula for QB rating; I’m sure someone could say ‘what about (random statistic rate)’ and I would think, oh yeah that would be good too, but I like that most of the noise has been removed. It is simple, yet solid. Based on what you are saying here about data points, and judging from how most of the players on this list have regressed, do you feel that they will most likely stay around this level for the rest of 2011?

Drinkin the kool-aid, smokin the Orange Kush

by boanst on Oct 27, 2011 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

On regression

You are definitely correct about the 4 games idea, which certainly works much better with veterans with more than 4 years of experience.

The good news for the young quarterbacks like Newton, Tebow and Dalton is even with limited experience they are playing well for a rookie. Next season will be the year for them to play some games on the level of a solid starting quarterback.

Flacco and Ryan have struggled and I wouldn’t be surprised to see them play at a similar level all year. They have the same players and coaches for the most part.

For whatever reason, players tend to get in a groove, whether good or bad, and perform that way for a season. Next season, both could be spectacular, but for 2011, it does not appear that would happen.

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 4:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

How about apples to apples

How about comparing Tebow’s first 4 games as a starter vs those other QB’s first 4 games as starters? That removes the variable to experience because they will all have had roughly the same amount of game experience. I think Tebow has done well considering he is learning his 2nd offense in as many years and the one month offseason really hurt him as well.

by Elvisdoom4QBs on Oct 27, 2011 4:17 PM MDT up reply actions  

Anyway you slice it

he does have impeccable statistics

Brad James

Follow me on Twitter

With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!

by the new Bradfather on Oct 27, 2011 3:02 PM MDT up reply actions  

Jim Rome is interviewing

Dawk tomorrow, we will have the Jungle karma against the Lions!

Brad James

Follow me on Twitter

With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!

by the new Bradfather on Oct 27, 2011 12:28 PM MDT reply actions  

But where was the "Jungle Karma"

after he had Orton on at the beginning of the “Kyle Streak”?

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Nice to see I'm not the only clone here!

with that said, I guess Orton’s suckiness is so powerful that not even Romey’s karma can overcome it, we know that Dawk played well against the Dolphins and does well even without Jungle Karma so the interview will only enhance his magnificence!

Brad James

Follow me on Twitter

With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!

by the new Bradfather on Oct 27, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

We can't possibly analyze Tebow or determine if he is good or not

In 4 games/1 game this year. So far Tebow looks horrible in the pocket and is trying so hard to do good that he is panicking in the pocket and making bad decisions. I am so sick of everybody trying to figure out Tebow right away because America is always about the next big thing. It takes patience and its going to be a while before we can figure out if Tebow will be serviceable

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Oct 27, 2011 12:43 PM MDT reply actions  

Thank you.

This is the one thing that has bugged me all week when ESPN can’t stop talking about the Miami game. I mean so many MSM guys say that he will never be an NFL QB, however I remember hearing several times before the draft that he is a 2-3 year project. So how is he all of a sudden supposed to be a star right now?

He has things he needs to get better at like every young QB coming into the league. He needs time with the offense, coaching staff, and reviewing game film so he can improve where he needs to.

Floyd Little: HOF Class of 2010.

2009-10 back-to-back NBA Champions L.A Lakers
2009-10 NBA Finals MVP Kobe Bryant

by weazel on Oct 27, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions  

Ahh, the dreaded eye test!

He failed my eye test too…until the end of the game when he won it. Which is the critical difference between my eye test of Orton and my eye test of Tebow. So far I still prefer Tebow…ask me again in 2012 and neither guy might be on my list.

by Tim Lynch on Oct 27, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think you missed the point of this article

First, I stated that a rating of 70-79.9 (Tebow has a rating of 77.8) is not good. Therefore, Tebow has a lot of work to do. I specifically stated his accuracy was his biggest problem.

Second, I stated he is not the only one. As of right now, only Matthew Stafford has played at a very good level, and that is just this year alone. Of the 11 quarterbacks listed above, none of them are playing well, suggesting all of the young quarterbacks need more time.

Maybe I didn’t understand your comment, but how does this post make a claim that I know how good Tebow is and how likely he is going to succeed in the NFL?

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions  

It wasn't really at your article or anything like that

It was a general statement of frustration that I needed to let all….all week every post has been about Tebow and figuring out the puzzle, and evaluating his performance, and blah blah blah….that was one of the worst games I have ever seen andyou can’t possibly take anything away from that game. You can’t take anything away from the last 5 minutes other than we won. They played a prevent defense and we throw a couple crossing routes, a scramble pass for a touchdown and a trick screen pass for a TD….I gather nothing from that.

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Oct 27, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

OK...was NOT a prevent defense...it was NOTHING like a prevent defense...one of those great misnomers that simply aint true.

Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!

"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:

Champ Bailey.

by boydy2669 on Oct 27, 2011 7:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

That wasn’t the same defense they played all game…they backed off

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Oct 28, 2011 7:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

Ok wasn't technically a prevent defense

but it wasn’t the same defense they played all game that is for sure. They backed off and stopped blitzing

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Oct 28, 2011 7:01 AM MDT up reply actions  

Nope...they blitzed/brought 4, played nickel to force Tebow to throw and look for mistakes. He just happened to make throws...

He was sacked and pressured on both the last 2 drives.
Not meaning to rip you, but would hazard everyone to actually not make sweeping statements. The Dolphins never went prevent.
Remember, the defense is dictated by what the offense does, not the other way round. Denver changed schemes in last 5 minutes…went spread, opened it up and played pass…..Miami had to adjust to this.

Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!

"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:

Champ Bailey.

by boydy2669 on Oct 28, 2011 7:23 AM MDT up reply actions  

Bringing 4 is not blitzing that is a normal pass rush. They covered the sidelines and the deep throw to limit the big play which left the middle of the field open usually which is why decker and willis were both able to get crossing routes in. Which by most standards is a prevent defense not allowing the big play

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Oct 28, 2011 8:36 AM MDT up reply actions  

Sorry, you're just wrong on this

Miami played pretty much the same defense all game – 4 man rush, 1 man spying Tebow, 2 deep man under. Defense was identical on the last drive. Only real difference was Denver attacked the middle of the field (which is what you do against 2 deep man under) and Tebow was on target.

by scooter17 on Oct 28, 2011 12:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

Its not prevent...prevent rushes 3...but whatever...belive what you believe....go read Chad pennington's article...you dont belive me...how about a Pro QB?

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Chad-Pennington-Tim-Tebow-Detroit-Lions-Denver-Broncos-Inside-the-Game-102611

Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!

"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:

Champ Bailey.

by boydy2669 on Oct 28, 2011 9:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

Bad decisions? No turnovers does not look like bad decisions to me. He may have missed passes, but they are not bad decisions.

Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!

"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:

Champ Bailey.

by boydy2669 on Oct 27, 2011 5:58 PM MDT up reply actions  

Great post Intel

But why the hate for Cam Newton. I understand Phillip Rivers, is Newton as cocky as Rivers?

by Baghdad on Oct 27, 2011 1:02 PM MDT reply actions  

I think hate has more to do with the hate towards Tebow and the fawning admiration of Newton.

Two extremes, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Though I think Newton is a much more polished QB than Tebow is, but in the end I think Tebow will become a better football player. If he’s still a Bronco by then depends on the outcome of this season no doubt…

by Tim Lynch on Oct 27, 2011 1:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

Its a pretty sad world

ESPN fawns over a former sCam artist that is three years removed from stealing laptops from other students, while ridiculing the guy that works his ass off. A part of me actually wants to see Tebow succeed even though that means I’ll have to see more of those stupid abortion ads on TV

House of Spears | My Detroit Lions/NFL Blog

by Latif Masud on Oct 27, 2011 1:17 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

THIS!

I am a self-proclaimed Tebow lover, but I don’t think he should be using his fame to push a political agenda. What’s next? An anti-gay-marriage ad? But Tebow is a polarizing figure, so its fitting he involves himself in such a polarizing issue.

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you're referring to the Super Bowl commercial

then I’m confused. It says absolutely nothing about abortion, or Tim pushing a political agenda.

Maybe I’m missing the subliminal message, but that commercial was a lot of media hype over nothing in terms of content.

Tim Tebow has started 4 games. Why must everyone judge him as though he's a 10-year vet?

by TheMorseFile on Oct 27, 2011 4:21 PM MDT up reply actions  

At least he stands up for what he believes in

and lives by it

A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves

by waterboy31321 on Oct 28, 2011 7:02 AM MDT up reply actions  

Yep...what you see is what you get.

Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!

"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:

Champ Bailey.

by boydy2669 on Oct 28, 2011 7:24 AM MDT up reply actions  

If Cam can be 6th in the NFL in NY/A despite being a lazy punk, I’d like to see what he could do if he worked hard. He still doesn’t seem like a sweetheart, but whatever.

i keep dancing on my own.

by atomiccafe on Oct 27, 2011 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

Reverse discrimination anyone? Swap Tebow for Newton and what would you get? AN absolute shit storm!

Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!

"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:

Champ Bailey.

by boydy2669 on Oct 27, 2011 7:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he is pretty conceited

The thing is its just a double standard. You can’t say Newton is one the best rookies while Tebow is never going to be a solid starter. The fact is, even though one is black and the other white, one has good mechanics and the other doesn’t, neither of them are playing well and are actually very close in production.

The truth is they both have a long way to go before either of them can be considered good quarterbacks.

by intelanalyst on Oct 27, 2011 1:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

It's not a double standard

they aren’t the same player. You can make a strong argument that Cam’s way better based on NY/A. There are arguments that Tebow is close to equal to Cam (include touchdowns and INTs and Tebow and Cam have been similarly productive). Most people’s eye test likes Cam better, but that’s just an opinion. That doesn’t make it a “double standard.” And of course they both have a long ways to go.

i keep dancing on my own.

by atomiccafe on Oct 27, 2011 2:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

Meh

You can make a strong argument that Tebow is way better based on TD/INT ratio.

The gripe that IS fair about double standards is that Newton doesn’t seem to get near the same criticism for his poor play that Tebow does. Newton is near the top of the league in interceptions at this point. Almost nobody is talking about that though.

I think the biggest problem is everyone wants a judgment on Tebow NOW while they’re content to say the jury is out on everyone else. I wish everyone would just be ok with the fact that it’s going to take time to judge any of these guys.

by scooter17 on Oct 28, 2011 12:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

My only qualms with Cam Newton

or as I called him at Auburn, $cam, were the monies he allegedly took at AU. Well, he is making money legally now and the NCAA found nothing wrong with Auburn, so I forgive.

Brad James

Follow me on Twitter

With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!

by the new Bradfather on Oct 27, 2011 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions  

I dont...I think he is a smug, lying asshole.

Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!

"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:

Champ Bailey.

by boydy2669 on Oct 27, 2011 7:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Scum Bags

I’m just jealous, I’ll admit it

by Baghdad on Oct 27, 2011 1:27 PM MDT reply actions  

Not me...

Im pretty proud of being a slave to them man/weak body/ghostly pale…

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Slave

Been a slave to women my whole life

by Baghdad on Oct 27, 2011 1:35 PM MDT reply actions  

aren't we all

One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.

by Trapped in O.C. on Oct 27, 2011 1:41 PM MDT up reply actions  

Good post. This at least makes the case that Tebow its as much a qb as the guys crowned as nfl worthy by the echo chamber.

by TheMascotArmy on Oct 27, 2011 1:52 PM MDT via mobile reply actions  

LOVE this analysis

Great job of using actual data to help us draw conclusions and form opinions, rather than just providing generalizations and speculation.

Here’s the biggest thing we can take from your analysis: Tim Tebow can at the very least play football in this league. I’m not saying he can be the starter over the long term. And I’m not saying he’s gong to lead the Broncos to the promised land. I am a big Tebow supporter, but I understand that he must prove himself on the field. I have my doubts as well, though I do think he’s going to be a stud over time.

What really kills me is when fans and commentators say that he is not good enough to play in the NFL. You can say he isn’t starter material. You can say that he is a career backup. But it boggles my mind how anyone can say at this point that he doesn’t belong in the NFL. He has shown that he can run in TDs, throw TDs and lead (record) comebacks.

Doesn’t mean he’s going to be a GREAT quarterback, but it does show that he can indeed be competitive in the pros. Whether that’s for the Broncos or another team, as a starter or a backup, running the ball into the end zone or throwing for a TD, he can play at some level. And he can do it better than some of his young peers as well.

I hope that EFX consider the whole picture – the type you just painted – before making a decision at the end of the season on whether to keep Tebow or trade him. If it shows he’s probably not the future, so be it. But at least they’d be evaluating him as a whole package, not just his completion rate, his mechanics or some of his lame-duck throws.

by Irishrep on Oct 27, 2011 3:00 PM MDT reply actions  

TDs are a good descriptive stat for success...

… but probably fairly poor as a predictive indicator. Sure, if you threw a lot of TDs you probably won alot… but how predictive is that of future performance?

Many advanced football stats de-emphasize TDs rather than emphasize them for that reason. A lot of TDs are due to opportunity (does the team tend to throw in the RZ, etc.)…. scheme is a huge factor… but that probably has as much to do with the other weapons available than it does the quality of the QB. TT gets an extra bonus because he may also be the best rusher on the team (so he gets lots of RZ attempts), but if he was playing with a better short-field running game, his TD numbers could plummet. Rodgers is another example, where the running game in GB is far worse than the passing game (which probably pumps his TD stats compared to other QBs).

Plus TDs are the very definition of small sample size events. Over a 5 game sample, I wouldn’t trust this at all. If a WR drops a wide open pass in the endzone, that has a disproportionately large effect on the rating compared the same drop on a different pass… so if QB#1 had 20 passes and 1 drop in the endzone, he’d look much worse than QB#2 who performed exactly the same, but the drop occured in the field. Over extremely large sample sizes you might be able to say something, but considering there is probably less than 5 TD “attempts” per game, you need a lot of games before you get an estimate without HUGE error bars.

As a sensitivity analysis, it might be interesting to see how much 1 TD is worth compared to 1 long catch… with your *600 multiplier, my guess is a TD is probably worth 50+ yards…. that is something you could test against win probabilities… is a QB who throws for 250ypg and 1 TD more likely to win long-term compared to a QB who throws for 200ypg and 2 TDs (with a similar ratio of INTs).

Love the analysis though, and hope to see you continue to test and refine your model. Rec’d.

by cjfarls on Oct 27, 2011 3:02 PM MDT reply actions  

In the Hidden Game of Football

they valued a touchdown at 10 yards. That’s because your expected points go up to about 6.3 or 6.4 at the one yard line, but don’t hit 7 (or 6.97 if you want to be scientific about XPs) until you get that last yard. That point expectancy was about the equivalent of 10 yards anywhere else on the field. Pro Football Reference says 20 yards, which I guess is just a different take. NFL passer rating gives about a 40 yard credit for a touchdown.

Interceptions are a somewhat different bag… AY/A gives you a 45 yard debit for a pick, which I guess is empirically derived based on the loss of the opportunity to advance the ball on subsequent downs, the loss of the ability to punt and gain field position, offset by the average distance of a pick from the line of scrimmage. NFL passer rating assigns a frankly hilarious 90 or 100 yard debit for a pick. What’s more, interceptions are basically random and regress to the mean. TDs, as you note, are more a product of scheme than skill, though they still add value if that makes any sense.

i keep dancing on my own.

by atomiccafe on Oct 27, 2011 3:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

thanks atomic!

Given the other advanced stat system seem to give 10-40yards/TD, this confirms my belief that this model overvalues TT’s currently high TD rate.

Also interesting that INTs have such different negative values… perhaps this argues against trying to look at TD/Int ratio, and instead seperate these into 2 parameters (perhaps TDs/attempt and INT/attempt), and then giving different weightings, rather than trying to shoe-horn them into a similar value.

NFL QB rating is basically ridiculous (as shown by it’s very high INT value)… We know TT will be undervalued because NFL QBR double-counts completion percentage (though it appears this model does as well) by it factoring into both YPA and completion percentage, though his high TD rate and low INT rate balance that out somewhat. I think it can be pretty definitively shown that by including YPA, you don’t also need to include completion %…. E.g. 2 for 3 for 12 yards and a first down is not really better in terms of W/L probability than 1 for 3 for 12 yards and a first down…. but it may mean we need to more heavily weight YPA to balance out with the TD/INT parameters.

by cjfarls on Oct 27, 2011 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I completely agree that there is no need to double count completions. Highly accurate passers like Brees and Brady are well rewarded under any Y/A model so long as they get the ball down the field enough.

I would say one thing people are slow to accept is that sacks are not only important and skill-based, they are also pretty darn attributable to the QB. Sacks should be a part of a QB rating system before TDs and INTs.

i keep dancing on my own.

by atomiccafe on Oct 27, 2011 4:04 PM MDT up reply actions  

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