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Lions vs Broncos: The No Bull Review

This week is such a hard review for me for a couple reasons:

1)  I watched most of the game on fast forward.  Many of the readers on the site can't stomach close losses in the least...I'm the opposite.  I can't stand not being in a game at all.  If I didn't have a DVR, I would have walked away from the game for an hour or so towards the end of the 2nd Quarter.  This obviously makes it hard for me to review a game.  I'm still going to give my best even if it isn't up to snuff...so I guess I'm really embracing my team this week.

2)  Truly I have a lot of negativity towards our team this week...not just Tebow, so while I'll give him his fair due I am just bent at our team from top to bottom.  That makes my reviews pretty hard...I always like to find the good stuff to talk about and there was very little in this game. 

So I'll jump in anyway and hope there is some good that comes of it. I'm starting with the defense this week as they deserve the first servings of this pile of dung we have to talk about.  :)

Star-divide

Defense:

 

  • Remember in the off-season how we were feeling pretty good about our secondary?  Yeah, they are our greatest liability.  We are so talent-thin at CB and Safety right now.  Champ can't cover everyone.  Dawkins doesn't have the jets to defend the pass any more.  Harris is making progress, but he's too young and doesn't have all the tools yet.  The weakness in our defense is not our D-line.  It is our secondary.  The Lions exposed it this week.  I'm with most in thinking that you should develop your team through the draft, etc...but to me this year we need to do whatever it takes to secure a better secondary...pay some big bucks to get safety and CB help in the off-season.
  • While Allen didn't do much to help the pass rush (where were the blitzes???), the front 7 did very poorly at causing any kind of duress to the Lions.  Everyone who watches football knows that Stafford is superb when he isn't rushed...you HAVE to get in his grill and our guys didn't do it.
  • Can you tell me a linebacker that had an impact on the game?  Granted I skipped watching closely half the game or more, but I didn't see one.  What happened to our MLB savior Mays?  How about DJ...did he get a week off because of his game-winning forced fumble?  Miller is such a stud rookie...did he help us do anything other than sniff out a screen play early on?  Linebackers need to impact the game at a much higher level than they did this week.
  • I get the feeling that our defense is starting to get figured out...we saw this a couple years ago after we went 6-0...the league figured us out and everyone started tearing us up.  I'm hoping that isn't the case though...the Lions have such a dangerous and talented offense.  I hope it was just an outlier from a poor match-up.

Offense:

 

  • Let's start off with the highly-touted 1st round stud pick of the past couple years.  It is amazing to me how hyped this guy is and how little he shows.  This is probably one of the biggest wastes of the recent drafts by our Broncos.  Knowshon Moreno has no business being given more than like 5 carries a game.  He struts like a rooster after a 1 yard gain.  He doesn't run with vision.   It was sad to watch him try to run this week.  Yeah he had a couple decent runs, but most of the good ball carrying was done by Ball.
  • I'm not going to say much about Tebow because everyone else has said plenty.  I'll just lay out my opinion and leave it at that:  This is an audition for Tebow.  Here's the score:  1 game - meh, 1 game - you aren't ever going to be an NFL QB.  Now I'm not saying the jury is in on him...I still want to see him make progress and win us some football games, but after his one week of magic, he now has a resounding "NO" vote from where I stand.  I don't know if I give him 9 more games...if he doesn't show some progress especially on 3rd down in the next 2-3 weeks, I yank him and put his sorry rear on the bench.  We will not win a game ever with him not converting 3rd downs.  And enough with excuses...he's got the ball in his hand.  Make a play...it is what you do right?  You are a gamer right?  Well the game was on and you left this fan sorely wanting.  And it goes without saying your accuracy completely sucks eggs.  If you just learn not to overthrow your deep passes, we would have had a chance to be in the game.
  • Here's the spotlight for the game:  Eric Decker is a legit WR.  He should have had a TD on the first drive and was robbed.  I don't see how the refs for a second didn't think that was a catch in the end zone.  I will say he should take away from that that he needs to always drag the 2nd foot...even if it means falling on your face.  Don't let the refs get a chance to take it away...cause they will.
  • Please don't hype Ball too much people...he's a dime a dozen player.  I'm still unimpressed with him.

Coaching:

 

  • McCoy:  Mabye you should listen to the broadcasters a bit...John Lynch nailed it - if you are going to play a young QB like Tebow, get short timing passes going early to get him into the groove.  Screens, slants, curls, get him going early and get the defense to respect the pass a little.  You are playing it backwards with QB draws and deep passes that have a low chance of success because your QB doesn't throw them accurately.  I did like how we were taking shots down field this game.  But I don't think for a second the coaching complemented our offense in how the plays were called.
  • Allen:  This was such a boring and underwhelming game plan.  I was hoping to see some adjustment at half time, but I didn't see it.  Why would you not dial up the blitz on these Lions and go man coverage?  Also, whey in the world did you not have Bailey manned up on Johnson every play?  These are two basic things that any arm-chair coach sitting at home knows makes sense.  Were you trying to prove everyone else wrong?  Cause you didn't...our defense sucked and your play calling was one of the primary reasons to me. 
Poll
What is your position on loses?
Losing a close one is devastating...if we are going to lose, I want to lose like this.
6 votes
Blow outs like this are the absolute worst. Just let us be in the game in the end and I'm happy.
119 votes

125 votes | Poll has closed

This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR

Comment 89 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Just wanna be in the game

I like Ball, he has shown some toughness. He needs to be the complement to McGahee. Defense? What defense? Miller did ok but we need a team. I kept slow mo-ing the plays and watching the Lions O manhandle our guys, on the other side of the ball? Same thing, our O was incapable of moving the Lions D.
Nice write up.

Go Broncos!

by Sean in Pa. on Oct 31, 2011 11:36 AM MDT reply actions  

hrmph

I’m having trouble reading much commentary. Thanks for highlighting the poor defense, the real reason we lost the game.

Tebow didn’t play horribly. He didn’t play well, but he played better than last week, and last week he didn’t play as badly as people made it out either. They’re not giving Tebow good hot routes, crossing patterns, or outlets. They might have a good game plan for a conventional defense, but they don’t have a good game plan when you factor in the mind-numbingly obvious possibility that the defense is going to try and sell out to pressure a young quarterback.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 12:00 PM MDT reply actions  

Here's the deal on the routes and play calling...

If I’m Tebow and the stuff I need isn’t there, then I change the darn play in the huddle so someone is there for me…I don’t think that is the case though. He has crossing routes and outlets from what I’ve seen…a couple of his completions late were crossing routes…I specifically recall one to Royal that was great.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 1:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

actually

I could see Tebow not changing a play when he should, just out of deferring to the coaching staff. I wonder if that willing-to-serve attitude will do him a disservice in the future. As much as I hate Cutler, I liked the bit about him cussing out Martz from the field.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with you on this

If you change the play constantly that is bad…but doing something you know is going to fail isn’t a good idea.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions  

"Tebow didn’t play horribly"

I quit reading right there. Look at his 3rd down conversion that says it all. Everybody trusts Elway right? Well on V&G this morning he said it’s the “QBs job to convert 3rd downs”

by Bustafluff on Oct 31, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

+1

3rd down is the QB’s chance to shine…he needs to make the right reads and execute to get a new set of downs.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 2:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

"didn't play horribly"?

watching Tebow made me long for the good ole days of Chris Simms … That was clearly the singular worst performance by a Bronco’s quarter back that I have ever witnessed.

Keep your eye on the prize -
The goal is not to win games,
the goal is to become champions.

by Flunkie on Oct 31, 2011 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Really? Worse than Orton against a far worse AZ team last year?

That was bad. Everyone keeps forgetting that a raw QB went up against a far superior D. Didnt the great Rodgers manage all of 6 or 7 points against that Lions D last year? Now Tebow has to put more than 35 points up against that? When the D allows 24 points in one half?

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby

by Calikula on Oct 31, 2011 2:30 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

far worse

Keep your eye on the prize -
The goal is not to win games,
the goal is to become champions.

by Flunkie on Oct 31, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Thats BS

Getting blown out by a bad team is way, way, way worse than yesterday’s performance.

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby

by Calikula on Oct 31, 2011 2:32 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

You forget the Arizona game last year. Or the KC game the week before.

Orton was easily the worst player on the field. We only had 6 points in that game and Orton’s rating was like a 12.

Even Tebow had a rating in the 50s yesterday.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 9:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

Orton has been dragged over the coals for that

He was injured as well. Still a bad game and seemingly with no reason and I cannot substantiate my claim of injury but I am sure of it none the less.

Go Broncos!

by Sean in Pa. on Nov 1, 2011 12:46 AM MDT up reply actions  

dude

lay off the hyperbole. It wasn’t even worse than last week against Miami. He improved from last week.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

by what measure?

at least last week he found a little redemption in the late 4th quarter

Keep your eye on the prize -
The goal is not to win games,
the goal is to become champions.

by Flunkie on Oct 31, 2011 2:32 PM MDT up reply actions  

Everyone is complaining about the third downs

And I agree, Tebow has to get better in that area, but if you look at the stats, it paints an interesting picture:

third down and 4 or fewer yards

1 for 3

third down and 5 or more yards

2 for 12 (with one converted thanks to a penalty)

While the whole team (Tebow included) has to do a better job on converting third downs, the fact is that they weren’t in a whole lot of reasonable third downs.

Of the 15 third downs that the Broncos faced on Saturday, five of them (one third of the total) were third and ten or even longer. You can expect to convert few if any of those, and if you’re facing those odds on a regular basis in a game, expect your third down conversion rate to be horrible, and for the Broncos it was.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 2:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

This continues

When Orton was faced with consistent third and long, it was his fault for not getting the team in better position to make 1st downs. No one cared if he made third and short, he was just bad for getting the team in third and long. What is the difference with Tebow being in htere?

And yes, I will continue to bring these issues up as I see them.

Go Broncos!

by Sean in Pa. on Oct 31, 2011 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

the difference

is that Orton was at his ceiling, and Tebow’s a young quarterback with an undetermined ceiling.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 2:51 PM MDT up reply actions  

That ceiling is getting more and more determined every week now isn't it?

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’m learning more about you every time you post. You’re going to determine Tebow’s ceiling a lot more quickly than he deserves.

I’ve mentioned this on other threads, but I just rewatched the entire first half and took notes on every play. I count only one drive that can be seen as a bad drive by Tebow – the fifth one, where he threw two inaccurate passes. Tebow showed more good than bad in the first half. I think you’re letting your perceptions get colored by way too many things that were not on the field.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 5:24 PM MDT up reply actions  

I have not rewatched the game

But you have GOT to be kidding!!!!! All those three and outs, everyone of them were bad drives by Tebow. Every pass play where he stepped back and overthrew, threw behind the reciever, or threw ten yards beyond the reciever were part of bad drives by Tebow. Seriously man, I said this in another thread but I saw him at least twice, step back from center and suddenly his arms jump out to the side as if surprised and he stuttersteps, runs and the play is broken. I mean seriously. What???
I am astounded by how bad Tebow can play and we are supposed to understand he needs time to learn. Really?
I am willing to give him time to get used to the team but a dog is a dog is a dog.

Go Broncos!

by Sean in Pa. on Oct 31, 2011 8:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

One of those three and outs was a 5 yard designed run by Tebow. The same play again that got 1 more yard and a two yard completion to Royal that was a perfect throw.

Mike McCoy earned that particular punt.

I didn’t see the wild inaccuracy like the Miami game, but I did see too much hesitation from Tim. He takes forever and a day to go thru his progressions and that results in a lot of sacks and QB runs. It’s pretty boring to watch after a while.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 8:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

fine

rather than keeping them in a mail draft, here’s my very raw unfiltered notes on the first half. Some is subjective, sure, but there’s a heck of a lot less hyperbole and exaggeration than what you just wrote.

1st drive:
- good drive overall. Two accurate passes by Tebow. Decker should have dragged feet, which was a blitz.
- last attempt, Detroit had snuffed out the screen, and as a result, the
delay meant Beadles was too far downfield for another pass attempt.
- what does this mean? either tebow needs another quick outlet before
linemen get downfield, or the play is dead and tebow needs to throw it away.
- either way it’s a field goal attempt.

(defense, give up a td)

2nd drive:
- good decision to throw it away
- bad run by moreno. bad play call to call a run to moreno on 2nd and 10.
- bad pressure give-up by franklin, this was a fast sack by avril, and tebow’s arm was up.
lynch: “can’t blame that on tim tebow”.

(defense, give up a long run on 1st, great screen defense by von miller, adequate defense by harris, good coverage and stafford runs out of bounds for a mcbean sack)

3rd drive:
- no gain by moreno, broncos behind schedule
- I-formation, good throw/catch by Tebow/Decker. Accurate, fast, good timing, steps up in pocket.
- Lynch gives compliments.
- Called run to Tebow, 3-yard gain towards right sideline. Pass attempt would have been nice.
- Interesting play…
- Kuper either failed to pick up a stunt, or the play call was too clever with two running backs both releasing for outlets. Also, Tebow stepped up right into the stunt, which wasn’t visible until after he stepped up. There were three linebackers in the flat and the outlets didn’t look like good options. Tebow with a quick pass to a covered Royal… I think this was a combination of a good defensive play by Cunningham, and perhaps a too-clever-by-half play by McCoy. Tebow perhaps should have gone to Ball, but he looked well-covered.
- Detroit rushed five with two more in support, and looking at the routes, it looks like Tebow didn’t even have an option.
- Drive notes. I think Tebow had a good pass play to Decker. Maybe Tebow should have gone to Ball instead of Royal, but he was also rushed and Ball got open late. The called run to Tebow got us behind schedule and a pass attempt would have been better there. Both sacks are not attributable to Tebow.

(defense, a long quarterback run and Bunkley’s tickey-tack penalty give Detroit really good field position all of a sudden. good almost-sack by marcus thomas, then awesome pass defense by Brian Dawkins. field goal.)

4th drive:
- three-yard run to Ball. Ok play call. But are there no high-percentage passes that can be thrown here?
- Detroit rushes four, with three additional soon after. Tebow throws on target to J.Thomas at the first down marker, who drops it. Come on, Thomas – that was in the hands.
- 3rd-and-seven again, and behind schedule.
- Here it looks like Decker in the slot was his first read, but Detroit rushed seven again, and Tebow had to make the decision to throw before Decker made his move. Demaryius Thomas was covered downfield, and it doesn’t look like Tebow had a second option near the first-down markers. Throw looked a bit off-target, but the pass was defensed anyway and would have definitely been incomplete if in-bounds.
- Drive notes. Tebow wasn’t given much chance to succeed here, with J.Thomas dropping a pass, and a low-percentage play call on 3rd down. McCoy should have recognized that Detroit was regularly bringing pressure by now.

(defense – some poor rush defense – easy to convert a 3rd-and-1. then detroit has some bad play-calling of their own, creating a 3rd-and-long again. Damn, Lynch is good – "they moved Calvin Johnson to the slot to get him AWAY from champ bailey… " first down calvin johnson. poor rush defense again… I think that they are playing both woodyard and williams instead of mays… dumervil causes an ayers sack!)

5th drive:
- First clearly bad play by Tebow. The lineup had one wide receiver, everyone else on the line. Tebow had Fells open, and chose to go for Decker instead, who it looked like might be open, but he just missed Decker. I think the bad play is more the overthrow than the decision since he probably had confidence he’d make the throw, but Fells had an easy first down there. Tebow was already into his throwing motion when Fells was coming open – some more patience from Tebow would have been good here.
- called run to Moreno on a 2nd-and-10, for four yards. Ugh. Come on, this is not how you use Moreno. Throw an outlet to him, or run Ball.
- Tebow in spread. Detroit rushes five and blitzes sixth in the A-gap. Tebow throws behind Decker and it’s knocked away. Tebow could have thrown a more accurate throw.

Drive notes: Tebow had two inaccurate throws, and on one he arguably had a better option. Fair criticism to call this a bad drive for Tebow.

(defense… oof, first catch by Johnson against Bailey, and D.J. almost had a sack on Stafford. Bad first-down rush defense again. Then it’s the Tony Scheffler show.)

6th drive:
- Draw by Tebow. Six yards on first down isn’t bad.
- This looked like another called run, it didn’t do as well.
- I don’t know if this is because of McCoy or Tebow. Well-defensed, but a short 3rd-down.
- It looks like it’s designed as a rub/pick to get Royal free, but D.Thomas doesn’t get enough of a push against his guy to give Royal room, Royal turns short of the first-down marker, and D.Thomas releases his guy too soon, enabling him to make the tackle. On target throw by Tebow, bad play by the receivers, I think mostly D.Thomas.

(special teams – two personal fouls on kick… sets Detroit up for another touchdown. Defense: Calvin Johnson on Chris Harris… Fox was later unapologetic about leaving Bailey out of the slot. Touchdown Detroit.)

7th drive:
- 29 seconds left. A pass to Moreno – this is how you’re supposed to use Moreno, he almost broke that tackle.
- Tebow sacked, there was a holding penalty early in the play anyway. It looks like Tebow is holding the ball too long, but it’s all slow-developing receiver routes, probably trying to get a “go-for-the-gold” big play before the half. Can’t really fault Tebow for this.
- Run by Moreno out of bounds
- Tebow deliberately throws downfield to exhaust the clock.

One legitimately bad drive by Tebow in the entire half.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions  

That sounds good

Obviously you paid close attention and it sounds accurate. It also sounds biased, as do my comments. I will however take exception to your claim of my hyberbole, which for some reason has become a popular comment around MHR. I say what I saw and Tebow had some funny reactions. I swear I saw it and then it happened again. I don’t know what the reaction is too but it would be comical if not in the midst of a horrid game (by all). Watch for it, he steps back from the snap and body language looks like he is surprised.
Would you be as forgiving of Orton? That pattern by Royal short of the first down marker is unforgivable!!

Go Broncos!

by Sean in Pa. on Nov 1, 2011 12:45 AM MDT up reply actions  

all right

I’ll tone down. Rough day.

I don’t know if I would have been as forgiving of Orton. My views of Orton are colored by the fact that Orton is a veteran and has reached his ceiling. I’m liable to be more patient with Tebow’s learning curve because he’s on one, while Orton doesn’t seem to get any better than he is.

by tunesmith on Nov 1, 2011 12:49 AM MDT up reply actions  

It is all good tune...

I’ve been about 90% sure of his ceiling since before we drafted him. But I’m holding out hope on that 10%…though I think it is getting more like 93 / 7…

The greatest thing about this season is that by the end of it I will either be right or wrong on Tebow. I can’t wait for it…either we have a starting QB of the future or we can go look for one and stop wasting time on this TE prospect.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Nov 1, 2011 8:35 AM MDT up reply actions  

That is impossible to say with a young player in only his 5th start.

I’m really down on DT. He looks horrible out there. I think he’ll ultimately be a bust. But even I don’t think we’ve seen close to enough to have more than gut feeling on him.

If I said DT hit his ceiling or we’re close to determining it, that would be a silly statement. Just like yours about a young QB with 5 games under his belt (2-3 record no less).

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 6:20 PM MDT up reply actions  

And it was thisclose to being a 4-2 record

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby

by Calikula on Oct 31, 2011 7:25 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't think so...game play is telling

Even rookies when they are in the game should be making some plays. Yeah they get a flier for being young here and there, but if they are on the field starting at their position, they had better damn well be showing more promise than what I’m seeing from Tebow at QB…so yeah. 5 starts…ceiling is dropping.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Nov 1, 2011 8:39 AM MDT up reply actions  

The problem is that he's off to a rough start this season

Last year he showed some real flashes of potential. I think the problems this year have less to do with him not having a high ceiling, but rather with him experiencing some expected growing pains, and Fox still working to figure out how best to use him.

Rookies take time to develop, and they need to fall on their face a few times while they learn how to play at this level. Two bad games don’t make a career, even a bad season doesn’t make a career. Tebow has the ability to play at this level, it is just going to take time for him and the coaching staff to figure some things out.

by DanReynolds on Nov 1, 2011 2:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

I can only respond for myself

But I never said that a two yard run was the fault of Kyle Orton. In fact I have said at least once on this site that I don’t blame Kyle Orton for the Broncos problems this season, and that in the right system he can, and has been successful.

I’ve always thought that Orton should be replaced because he just isn’t what this team needs. This is a young team that needs time together to start developing, and since there is little to no chance of Kyle Orton being the long term quarterback, it is better to let Tebow (who I believe is the quarterback of the future for the Broncos, and I hope the front office sees what I’ve seen in him) take his lumps along with the rest of the young players so that they can all develop together as a team.

The whole team needs to get better. That includes the coaches and the players, but it takes time for a coaching staff to understand how best to utilize a player, just like it takes time for a player to develop. I’m confident that things will get better with more experience, and am willing to live through the blowouts for the future payoff.

With Kyle Orton there was no future payoff. Even if the team was interested in keeping him long term, by the time this team was ready to compete, he would be on the downside of his career. The team would have to then think about finding his replacement, which would add more years to the rebuilding process.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 3:06 PM MDT up reply actions   2 recs

I don't agree with everything you said

But, that was an excellent answer Dan ! :)

Go Broncos!

by Sean in Pa. on Oct 31, 2011 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

When do the excuses stop?

I don’t care how many 3rds were more than 5 yards…the QB needs to find a way to convert at least a third of them or your team is going to lose (most of the time).

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions  

If you don't understand the difference

between a third and three and a third and ten, then you’re absolutely right, there’s no point in my highlighting them:)

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 3:11 PM MDT up reply actions  

I know the difference

Just like I know that successful QBs convert them at least every once in awhile.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 4:35 PM MDT up reply actions  

there isn't one stat that "says it all".

Fox himself said that Tebow showed improvement from last week.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 2:27 PM MDT up reply actions  

During the game I started thinking the coaches don’t believe he can make those throws. So only long throws and screens.

by cosBroncosFan on Oct 31, 2011 2:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

Foe 3 and 1/2 quarters..

Tebow played EXACTLY like he did in Miami. He stunk up the stadium! Only this time he continued that play into the last half of the 4th quarter.

"My team's on the floor"
Gene Hackman - Hoosiers

by AlanC11 on Oct 31, 2011 2:42 PM MDT up reply actions  

100% agree with this post. Like elway said 2 m

Perspective is not taught at MHR, so stop reading the DP and go get some.

by BroncofanfromBoston on Oct 31, 2011 12:01 PM MDT via mobile reply actions  

100% agree with this. Qb and cb are two of the top vital positions. We lack hard in both of these. Draft a top qb and get some guys who can cover anybody….our corners are dreadful. One needs to be taken in round 2

Perspective is not taught at MHR, so stop reading the DP and go get some.

by BroncofanfromBoston on Oct 31, 2011 12:04 PM MDT via mobile reply actions  

Well said Sadaraine.

Agree with you that our secondary is garbage. I thought with the addition of Allen(Saints secondary coach) he would improve our secondary.

Goodman needs to go(below avg #2, and can’t tackle anyone), Wilhite who’s only been good on blitzes and two very young CBs in Vaughn nd Harris(I like this kid).
I would keep Harris and Vaughn aswell as Bailey for CBs, I would like to draft one early aswell. Our Safeties are young: Moore and Carter(is kinda like Dawkins slow and can’t cover)

-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -

by Automatik41 on Oct 31, 2011 1:14 PM MDT reply actions  

Yeah...I don't know what the coaches were thinking with the moves before the season started in the secondary

Vaughn was mediocre early…where is he? We dumped Cox (which I don’t question really given the circumstances) and Squid showed himself as not being up to snuff.

Then we go get Wilhite? Really? That’s what you can come up with?

I guess I should be happy though…this year we got rid of Nate Jones.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 1:46 PM MDT up reply actions   1 recs

Vaughn could be a productive nickel or dime CB, would like to see more of Squid too.

But Harris for a UDFA has impressed me, yes he’s aggressive and gambles but that reminds me a little of D-Will(RIP).

-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -

by Automatik41 on Oct 31, 2011 2:00 PM MDT up reply actions  

The problem is we have 4-5(I think Harris has potential to be a solid #2) nickel/dime CBs.

Goodman sucks,Wilhite bad, Vaughn up and down, Squid is too slow to be a #1 or #2 and the jury is still out on Harris.

-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -

by Automatik41 on Oct 31, 2011 2:03 PM MDT up reply actions  

If we had multiple 1st round picks and Tebow was improving and showed progress...

I would draft Kirkpatrick(CB) from Bama and Burfict(MLB) for ASU.
But that’s never going to happen lol.

-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -

by Automatik41 on Oct 31, 2011 1:16 PM MDT reply actions  

from* ASU

-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -

by Automatik41 on Oct 31, 2011 1:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree with absolutely everything you said. I thank my lucky stars that I have the Red Zone channel. I would have needed a puke bucket otherwise. That’s all I have to say about that.

"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow

by MTBroncosFan on Oct 31, 2011 1:16 PM MDT reply actions  

I told you DT is a liability and I told you to watch him this week. Did you? If you did, you know what I’m talking about.

That dude is like a chicken with his head cutoff out there. No coverage recognition, no zone recognition, no route running skills, no sense of how to play the ball, no ability to diagnose a D and no ability to get open.

He was brutal this week. Franklin too. No way you missed that.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 1:39 PM MDT reply actions  

I did for the little I actually watched

I agree with you man…DT is so either not in shape or just doesn’t know what he is doing…probably both. He’s too big and freakish to not be getting involved in the game…

It is like last week when you talked about Moreno to me…Franklin is Franklin at this point…He’s going to be a Guard next year, so whatever. He still consistently did “good enough” to give our QB 3+ seconds. Our QB just couldn’t make a decision in those 3 seconds on what the heck to do most of the time. When you have Knowshow as your starting RB, Franklin is going to have a bad day because his weakness is going to be on display.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions  

3 seconds? On that strip sack Franklin didn’t even give Tebow one second. He barely got his hands on Avril. It was pathetic. Reminded me of the RT for Buffalo on that Von Miller sack in the preseason. Just a whiff. he had four or five on the game. Which is just pathetic at an NFL level.

You will see every team do their best to get Franklin one on one from here on out. That dude is a horrible RT in pass protect. Maybe the worst pass blocking RT in the NFL.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 1:56 PM MDT up reply actions  

Like I said...

Guard.

What else are you looking for here?

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions  

In the 2012 draft. A new RT. Beadles to the bench.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 6:09 PM MDT up reply actions  

DT...

Right now he seems like a case of great physical tools without a knowledge of how to use them. He just looks lazy to me.

by tunesmith on Oct 31, 2011 2:28 PM MDT up reply actions  

I agree that Franklin will probably be a guard next year

But can’t agree that he consistently gave Tebow 3+ seconds to work in the pocket. There were a few times where he gave Tebow some nice protection, but that was by no means his normal level of play on Sunday.

Honestly this was a “perfect storm” scenario that occured on Sunday. The Lions have a D-line that is heavy on the pass rush, the offensive line is a major work in progress and Tebow still needs to work on getting the ball out faster. It was a recipe for disaster and that disaster came to pass.

The hope is that the coaching staff will be able to take a lot of teaching points from this game, and that it will help everyone develop down the line.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 2:43 PM MDT up reply actions  

Hopefully the coaching staff will give Franklin some help. But as others have pointed out. Beadles also needs help.

When two our your five O-line can’t pass block without help… Your passing offense is going to suck.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 6:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

I think Franklin is having trouble

mainly because the position he’s in, having to protect Tebow’s blind side. It would be nice if he could be moved over to LT while he develops his pass protection skills, but I’ve read in other threads that Clady has zero experience at RT.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 9:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

I’ll put it this way.

You put Andrew Luck on a field with those same Broncos yesterday and we still lose by several TDs.

That was a hard game to watch because we looked terrible at so many positions. Really a wakeup call and very sad. It was much worse than a close loss. A close loss could be a win with a call here or bounce there.

We were awful pretty much across the board yesterday. Wasn’t one player or two or even three. It was more like 18 of our starters were horrible and the other four were just okay.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 2:11 PM MDT reply actions  

See point #2 in post before the jump.

Thanks for taking that and restating it in your words.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 2:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

That is the worst part about yesterday. It’s not that we have one disappointing young player.

It’s that we have mostly disappointing young players. How can you get excited about our future when it’s hard to envision guys like Franklin, Tebow, Julius Thomas (this TC warrior I’ve never seen do a damn thing yet), Royal, Moreno, DT, Beadles, Moore and so many others leading us to anything other than 5-11.

I get that young guys are going to have bad games. But when will they have good games. Other than Miller, none of our 2011 draft picks have shown particularly well in anything more than limited spurts. And as of yesterday, all seem to be regressing. And that seems to go for the 2010 guys as well in DT, Beadles and Tebow.

It’s so damn frustrating. I need to see our team improve in the worst way because I haven’t seen improvement in forever.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 6:29 PM MDT up reply actions  

I hear you man

I don’t like it either. Hopefully we see more from them over the next few games. The faders may be just what the doctor ordered…our defense at least will have a chance to redeem themselves against a poor offense (though that line is still a bad match up for us).

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Nov 1, 2011 8:41 AM MDT up reply actions  

I actually prefer this type of game right now to a close loss

Right now it needs to be about learning experiences rather than wins. If it were a close loss, it might give the coaches a false sense of the team’s ability and have them thinking about beating next week’s opponent.

Because it was a blowout, there’s no misconception about where the team is at right now, and the coaching staff can focus on coaching up the young players on the roster.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 2:46 PM MDT up reply actions  

That is the scary part Dan.

What is the point of coaching up the young players if it becomes increasingly apparent that our young players are not good and won’t be good.

Does anyone think Moreno is going to become a Pro Bowler at this point? Walton? Beadles? Ayers? DT? Tebow?

What is the point of coaching up young guys that will max out at average? It’s so very depressing.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 6:33 PM MDT up reply actions  

I don't have quite your pessimistic outlook on those players ceilings

No, I don’t think that Moreno is a pro-bowler waiting to develop, but I think that he can be a dangerous change of pace back. Of course that means that he was over drafted a bit, but just because he’s been over drafted doesn’t mean he can’t contribute.

I was always a bit wary about DT, mainly because his massive college production was in large part due to one on one matchups when opposing defenses would stack 9 in the box in an attempt to stop the Georgia Tech triple option. But, like Moreno, I think he can be productive it was just a case of him being over drafted.

I think Ayers has shown some flashes of potential, as has Tebow (yes, everyone is down on him right now, but he has shown some flashes of brilliance in his limited action).

I know that after the loss to the Lions, not many players on this team are looking good at the moment, but this is a learning process and if we can be patient with these young players, I think they will reward us in the future.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 10:10 PM MDT up reply actions  

I'm not sure I agree about Andrew Luck and still losing by multiple TDs.

I have to think that if we put Cam Newton back there we would have kept it close (as he’s done in almost every one of his games). I think Andrew Luck would have played as well (given the same amount of practice time and game experience Newton has had).

Of course then Franklin wouldn’t have been a blind side protector and Luck could have seen the rush coming from that side. Our team is just horrible.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Oct 31, 2011 2:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

Not saying that Cam hasn't outplayed expectations

but a large part of that has to do with Steve Smith, Greg Olson and Jeremy Shockey. Put Cam with the receivers on the Broncos right now and I bet his numbers would be significantly worse than they are with Carolina.

Heck, right now I’m not sure if the Broncos even have as accomplished a receiver on the roster as Brandon LaFell and Legedu Naanee.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 2:55 PM MDT up reply actions  

I definitely agree that Cam has a better team around him than Tebow does.

Amazing that a 2-14 team is better than ours in large part to their FO and coaching staff.

I think that says a lot about our FO (Xanders?) in the fact that we are not better.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Oct 31, 2011 3:22 PM MDT up reply actions  

disagree. keep that defense off the filed score more.... the game game is closer by a long shot.

Tebow REALLY SUCKED

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
Douglas Adams

by Whidbey Bronco on Oct 31, 2011 3:18 PM MDT up reply actions  

Tebow lost 14-10.

He was garbage.

-Champ Bailey's calendar goes straight from March 31st to April 2nd; no one fools Champ Bailey-
-The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese -

by Automatik41 on Oct 31, 2011 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

Would help. But our D set the tone yesterday with that first drive where Detroit passed it right down the field and we left their WR open by 25 yards. Having Harris cover Johnson was a pathetic piece of coaching by Allen.

Our D was really bad yesterday for long stretches. I can’t say even one of them played well. Elvis and Ayers were okay. Von was okay, but the secondary was awful and our DTs got no push up the middle. Mays played his worst game as a Bronco. Even Woodyard sucked.

That game wasn’t close yesterday for a lot of reasons. Take out Tebow and play Luck. Our secondary, coaching, WRs and pass block is still pathetic.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 6:14 PM MDT up reply actions  

It is sad that we have drafted 4 safeties in the last 3 years and are still talent thin at the position.

Xanders needs to go. I don’t credit him with the Miller pick because it was a no brainer. I do credit him with not getting us the other 3 starters he promised us.

Franklin is a horrendous pass protector.
Moore and Carter may become good safeties down the road but they aren’t talented enough to be starters at this point
Nate Irving obviously isn’t ready to be a starter.

Now next year we must draft a CB, MLB and a DT and yet we will probably be using our 1st round pick on a QB instead. Sorry people, 2-3 years till contention is a very optimistic outlook.

Mays will be gone and shouldn’t be our MLB. He isn’t even trusted enough to call plays for the defense since that responsibility was given to DJ who is our WLB.

I’m sad.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Oct 31, 2011 2:28 PM MDT reply actions  

I don't know that I agree with Franklin being a "horrendous" pass protector

He’s a developing pass protector who has the misfortune of being asked to protect Tebow’s blind side during that development.

It was pretty much understood when he was drafted that he was a much more polished run blocker than pass blocker. The problem right now is in asking him to do something in pass protection that he’s just not ready to do yet, protect the QB’s blind side.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions  

blind side or non blind side a 2nd round Tackle should be able to block against the pass better than Franklin.

If the team used a 2nd round pick on a tackle to only be good at run blocking then they were foolish and they drafted him too high IMO.

he didn’t have to be a franchise LT or RT in regards to pass blocking but he at least needed to show he was capable. Right now I’m not sure he is. I am going to lean towards trusting McGeorge who watched him in college and has said the same since the beginning.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Oct 31, 2011 2:53 PM MDT up reply actions  

he's a rookie

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
Douglas Adams

by Whidbey Bronco on Oct 31, 2011 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions  

so was everyone else at one point. I don't think he should go to the pro bowl but I do believe he should know how to be a better pass protector as a 2nd round pick.

I’m not blaming him as much as I am blaming our FO for taking him in the 2nd round.

They knew, and many canes fans, knew he was not a good pass blocker.

Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.

by BroncoMath101 on Oct 31, 2011 3:23 PM MDT up reply actions  

And he sucks. Rookie or not. If a rookie can’t move his feet fast enough to block someone, that is on his slow feet.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 6:15 PM MDT up reply actions  

next time you dont watch... dont review it.
Remember in the off-season how we were feeling pretty good about our secondary?

who’s we!!

He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which.
Douglas Adams

by Whidbey Bronco on Oct 31, 2011 3:20 PM MDT reply actions  

If you don't like it, then don't read it

and then don’t comment since your opinion is that it is worthless. If it is truly worthless, then I won’t get any comments or any recs.

So in essence…pound sand.

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Oct 31, 2011 4:37 PM MDT up reply actions  

Mays didn't play most of the game

They played most of the game in nickle with 4 dline, 2 LB and 5 DB, Mays only played on goalline. I think most teams have figured out that the way to beat the Broncos is to play like GB and be a pass first offense.

Likewise, when your D-line doesn’t generate any pressure, your secondary looks bad. I don’t remeber Elvis being much of a factor except on one play where he forced Stafford into Ayers arms, otherwise, outside of Von, there was no pass rush.

"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
"Duffman is thrusting in the direction of the problem" - Duffman
"Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun" - Ash from Army of Darkness
"H.I., you're young and you got your health, what you want with a job?" - Evelle from Raising Arizona
"It happens sometimes. People just explode. Natural causes." - Agent Rogersz from Repoman

by Broncoman on Oct 31, 2011 4:40 PM MDT reply actions  

sucks since our weakness was supposed to be rush D

we need help everywhere on that D

"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby

by Calikula on Oct 31, 2011 7:31 PM MDT up reply actions  

The contradiction on this site is pathetic

People are willing to give up on young guys on this team like DT and Franklin but are convinced somehow Tebow will get better. Franklin has 2 bad games as a rookie against good pass rushers and he all of a sudden can never play RT again.

Im sorry but f*ck that. People think that because certain rookie quarterbacks struggle and then improve Tebow will do the same. Tebow has shown no ability to improve any sort of decesion making or reading of defenses since coming to the NFL. In fact he looks much worse than last year, his mechanics are honestly some of the worst i have ever seen. Its not like I willing to give up on this guy now, but if he shows no improvement this year i am absolutely for drafting a qb in round 1 or 2. Vince Young also looked great at leading teams back and going 8-2 after taking over the titans. He is now a backup.

Perspective is not taught at MHR, so stop reading the DP and go get some.

by BroncofanfromBoston on Oct 31, 2011 6:41 PM MDT reply actions   1 recs

The truth hurts

I’m pretty close to saying none of the three are going to be good NFL players for Denver or anyone else.

Franklin may be okay at G. DT and Tebow has so damn far to go it’s hard to see any light at the end of those two tunnels.

I was there!

by McGeorge on Oct 31, 2011 7:47 PM MDT up reply actions  

I've been pretty consistent

in saying that ALL these young players need time.

by DanReynolds on Oct 31, 2011 10:12 PM MDT up reply actions  

I disagree about the secondary......

and point to the Lions front 4 as the reason. When you pressure the QB, and blow up what the O-line is trying to do, the secondary doesn’t have to be special. I say the D-line being composed of average, journeymen players is the biggest problem on D. Yes, Dawk is slower; the kids make mistakes; but the other team is waiting for something to open up- and they usually find it. It isn’t just young QB’s that struggle with pressure, its most QB’s. With a HOF’er playing for us in the back, we just need average play in the rest of the back- if we have a decent front four. I was hoping for more attack from the new DC- and I’m not seeing much more than an occasional corner blitz. I think that is by design, to cover a weak D-line.

Offense is getting beat up elsewhere, so I’ll leave that alone. But yes, we have to make 3rd downs; and in a ball control offense (Foxball), it better be 3rd and short most of the time. 3rd and long is for good passing teams to convert; not ball control teams. And there is plenty of blame to spread around on that…..

by baselinedenver on Nov 1, 2011 9:38 AM MDT reply actions  

Sorry Sad for the late rec'd

I always enjoy peaking out from my rock to read your (usually right on) take.

by BroncoSense72 on Nov 1, 2011 3:50 PM MDT reply actions  

Thanks man

always appreciate it

"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV

by sadaraine on Nov 1, 2011 4:57 PM MDT up reply actions  

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