Reading Between The Lines: What John Fox's Comments About Tim Tebow Might Mean
by John Bena on Oct 4, 2011 9:46 AM MDT
in Strictly My Opinion
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PrintI won't pretend to know what John Fox means when he talks about Tim Tebow, Kyle Orton or anyone else. Much of it is coach-speak, of course. During Fox's weekly Monday press-conference, however, I found a couple of answers Fox gave to the never-ending questions about Tim Tebow intriguing to say the least.
Read them for yourself...
After answering two different questions about the quarterback position with "Kyle Orton is our starting quarterback", Fox was asked directly about why Tebow played just one play against the Packers. That play, of course, was a quarterback sneak in the 1st quarter that lost a yard - not very creative.
Here was Fox's response:
"No. 1, Tim Tebow is not our starting quarterback. He was in [one snap during] our first 15 plays, and there is an element of Tim playing the quarterback position and a type of offense that he would have in that position that could be beneficial to the Broncos-our offense. He could be in the run game. If they stack the box like we do in our base offense, there could be something things as a throwing element. The hard part of the National Football League is that it's hard to master one offense, and when you spend too much (time) trying to master another one, there is not enough time that goes around, particularly with a new staff, a new offense, a new defense, really a new special teams coach as far as coordinators. We did have and we do have other plays designed for Tim, but we had some other things that were actually working pretty well."
Now, I read that quote at least 100 times trying to see if the feeling I got the first time would change. It didn't. What I hear when I read that out-loud, and you can watch the presser over at DenverBroncos.com(Part 1, Part 2) was: Tim Tebow can do some things as a quarterback in the NFL, if you want to run that kind of offense.
Now I will emphasize the part that led me to that.
"The hard part of the National Football League is that it's hard to master one offense, and when you spend too much (time) trying to master another one, there is not enough time that goes around, particularly with a new staff, a new offense, a new defense, really a new special teams coach as far as coordinators."
What Fox is saying, to me at least, is there would have to be two different offenses - one for everyone else, and one for Tim Tebow. That leads me back to a couple of points we have been talking about, well, all summer.
With the Lockout, there was no way for the Broncos or Tebow to work on the offense. Remember, don't confuse Mike McCoy's return as offensive coordinator with the concept that the Broncos are running the same offense. They aren't. McCoy was running Josh McDaniels' playbook last year, and this year it's a McCoy/Panthers/Fox playbook. It's a new offense that Tebow did not have the opportunity to work on because of the work stoppage.
So Fox is admitting, at least to me, that there simply has not been enough time for Tim to learn that offense, or for the Broncos to install a separate offense that takes advantage of what Tebow does well.
Later, Fox was again asked about Tebow and specifically about having a separate offense for Tebow. His answer, which at first glance looks to backtrack from the first answer a bit, was interesting as well.
"Let me just clarify: Tim Tebow knows our base offense as well as [QB] Brady Quinn does and really [QB] Adam Weber for that matter and Kyle Orton. Tim has some unique skills unlike, maybe, the other three that could be used in a quarterback-run oriented offense. I don't know that the other three have those abilities and primarily to run the ball. One thing nice about that is that it creates problems for the defense in the sense that you have an extra man when the quarterback can run. Those are the types of plays that we have special just for Tim."
What Fox clarifies, at least to me, is not that Tebow, Brady Quinn or Adam Weber know the base offense, but that they do not - or at least are all at the same spot. Face it, the players had just over a month to learn the playbook, and once Training Camp ended on August 20th, Kyle Orton was getting 90% of the reps. That's what the starter gets.
Putting the two answer together for me, especially considering that Fox says in four-different answers that "Kyle Orton is our starting quarterback" is that Fox simply does not think Tebow can run the offense right now - be it because Tebow has not had the time to learn/practice it or that he feels Tebow simply can't do it.
That part is up for perception, and depending on which side of the fence you fall on Tebow you are going to read it the way you want. I asked someone I trust, someone who's not a fan of the Broncos, to give their thoughts on Fox's comments, just to see if what I was hearing was on or off target. Here is what they think:
"The sense I get from reading that is that while Tebow can run an offense in the NFL, it is not the offense Fox wants to run."
Exactly the way i felt Fox was saying - Tebow can do some things at quarterback, if that's what you want your quarterback to do.
Am I right? Who knows. I'm just a Broncos fan like all of you. Will Tebow play this season? I think so - at some point. I always have. But when I wrote my 'Forest Through The Trees' post a few weeks ago I felt that the Broncos quarterback of the future was somewhere playing on Saturday's, not Sundays. Fox's comments yesterday have only enforced my feelings, ten-fold.
That said, both sides of the never-ending Tebow debate can latch on to what was said yesterday:
- On one hand, Fox could be saying that he has no interest in running the kind of offense that would utilize what Tebow can do, which is another way of saying, "Thanks, but no thanks."
- On the other hand, Fox could be doing Tebow a HUGE favor. He could be saying that Tebow shouldn't play in 2011 because he simply didn't have the time to learn the offense - which was no fault of his own. Instead of installing a bunch of plays - a separate offense - for just Tebow, Fox may think it better for Tebow to sit, watch, and learn. Then, during the offseason when Tebow is the only QB under contract, he would be given the opportunity to win the job outright in 2012.
Either way, this isn't going away anytime soon.
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Is Kyle still the starter if we lose to SD?
We’d go into a bye week then, perfect time to switch.
Kyle Orton doesn't care about me yet EFXs expects me to have his baby every time we lose.
I'm beginning to think John Fox is an asshole.
and I dread watching the games now and find them un-enjoyable.
So why did I just leave a comment?
Yes and here is why.
I posted this later in this thread but it needed to be here too:
Orton is a drop back passer that uses the run to setup the pass…AKA John Fox.
Tebow is a spread QB…AKA the REST of the NFL
The NFL has changed and John Fox forgot to come along. Watch any team on Sunday the league has become a pass happy league. Running to setup the pass is long gone. Look at the last few teams in the Super Bowl. Green Bay runs a spread, Arizona runs a spread, New England runs a spread, and Pittsburgh has even left the run first attack. The league moved on without John Fox and Denver is paying the price for hiring a DC as Head Coach. Need proof look at Carolina this year. Cam Newton is killing it throwing the ball around, spreading it out, and just simply taking advantages of the mismatches. The Denver offense is setup for the spread attack too look at how prolific this Offense was last year. Tebow is a spread QB. In the spread you have to move the pocket and Orton simply can’t do it. I truly understand now why Tim Tebow sits. If he plays in this Offense he fails, period! The playing calling would make any of the QB’s today look bad including Orton. So its time I realize it might not be Orton….Fox may hold more blame than I originally thought.
John thanks for this write up! I know now I was putting blame on the wrong guy’s shoulders! Orton does deserve some, but most falls on the system brought here by John Fox!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Arizona runs a spread
and deserves to be 2-2 because the Giants got away with an unfair call. I know Tom Coughlin is a great coach but even Eli Manning, having perfect integrity as Peyton and his parents do, said the G-Men got a break. Yes, the Cards are good, just thought I’d put it out there
Brad James
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With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:40 PM MDT up reply actions
My feelings exactly MHP...
couldn’t have said it better. I’m not sold on JF and had my doubts from the start. I’m playing the wait and see, but I’m not happy yet. However, all things considered, it’s a new year with a lot to learn by everyone.
With the D the way it was after last year I was happy about getting Fox. Then the games began and I will bite my tongue and see how it plays out.
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
Carolina
How many wins do they have MHR?
by KansasBronco on Oct 4, 2011 7:32 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Pass happy?
http://extreme.mobile.msn.com/sports/nfl/article/1009529
“The run isn’t sexy, but it’s imperative to win”
by KansasBronco on Oct 4, 2011 7:39 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Something here doesn't make sense.
Let’s assume that reading between the lines, indeed John Fox thinks that Tebow is not ready to run this offense. Further, to input Tebow would mean drastically altering the playbook, something Fox is loathe to do. If this is true, I have serious issue with BOTH of these interpretations.
Number one, how the hell does Fox know that Tebow can’t run this offense? Based upon his non-existent body of work from this regular season? Was there NOTHING to be gleaned from the pre-season? DId Tebow not perform admirably? What exactly is it that Fox has to go on, other than practice (where TT doesn’t get first team reps anyway)?
Secondly, can a head coach not adapt his offense to different personnel? How difficult is it to install 12 – 15 new plays/formations to utilize a unique talent like Tebow? Gosh, the next thing he’ll be saying is once a game starts it too late to make adjustments. GIve me a break!
I thought it was Orton who was going to catch most of this fanbase’s wrath if the losing continues. However, more pressers like Fox’s last one and he is going to lose whatever credibility he had going into this season. Right now my assessment is he’s either dumb or he’s lying. I don’t like either option.
by TrueNorthStrong on Oct 4, 2011 12:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Fox is straight faced truth stretcher.....he trotted out hos old line of "we opened it up for competition".....we all know that was total bullshit!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
yep
the QB compotition was pathetic. We are doomed to more of the same. Yuck.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:19 PM MDT up reply actions
Fox is stubborn and set in his ways.
Funny how he had is most success when he was inexperienced
Again we can't expect anything from John Fox
because of 2 words Jake Delhomme
He will ride Kyle Orton right to unemployment if he has too. Because unless Elway steps in and says by to Kyle we are stuck watching this guy all freaking year.
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
by dmitchell624 on Oct 4, 2011 6:02 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
This never gets old for a laugh
How glad I am that I’m not so bitter and blinded as you guys are to think that Tebow wasn’t given an opportunity to win the starting job. Guys he sucked it up…he sucked it up in training camp, he sucked it up in the preseason games. How do you seriously take his performance and say, “Ya know, I know you did worse than Orton, but we’re going to let you start anyway!”
You can’t. You would lose the locker room immediately (because they saw it all too and even said so).
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
by sadaraine on Oct 4, 2011 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tebow sucked it up in preseason?!!!!!!!!!
Not quite sure how Tebow sucked it up in preseason! Just check out the stats from this preseason:
Kyle Orton
Att: 42
Comp: 28
Yards: 408
Comp %: 66.7
Yrds/Att: 9.7
TD: 2
INT: 1
Rating: 104.1
Brady Quinn
Att: 42
Comp: 22
Yards: 276
Comp %: 52.4
Yrds/Att: 6.6
TD: 2
INT: 2
Rating: 69.1
Tim Tebow
Att: 31
Comp: 20
Yards: 310
Comp %: 64.5
Yrds/Att: 10
TD: 1
INT: 0
Rating: 108.3
Info was from: http://forums.denverbroncos.com/showthread.php?t=192773
We've covered this in several different discussions spanning years on MHR
Stat’s aren’t the be-all, end all.
I judge him off what I saw him do with my eyes. That first game in preseason especially his stats looked amazing on paper, but lots of people were talking about how poor he looked. His accuracy was awful and he got bailed out by his WRs on several throws. He also consistently made one read, then looked for a running lane. It was pathetic.
I do think it is awful neat how you bolded Tebow’s best stats, but made no mention of Orton’s stats or how Tebow was going up against 2nd and 3rd string defenses. There’s a lot more to it than numbers son.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
by sadaraine on Oct 4, 2011 5:09 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
As do we with Orton.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
QB competition was a farce
From day one, Tebow played with the 2’s against the ones, and Orton played with the 1’s against the 2’s. Tebow had the best qb rating of the bunch, with the least time in the pocket, and unlike quinn, didn’t suck the last game. And Tebow’s last 3nfl games were better than orton’s.
by TheMascotArmy on Oct 4, 2011 6:09 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
The only stat that matters is wins
Orton’s painfully short in that department.
by xteve on Oct 5, 2011 7:32 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I do not agree that we would lose the locker room
but would you rather lose the fan base with empty seats while we wander aimlessly through another season?
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
who in the locker room would we lose?
and if the locker room is going to stand by Ort and his ability to screw a pooch in 101 different ways then maybe it is a locker room worth losing.
by pwsbronco on Oct 4, 2011 9:49 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
so next year Tebow will get a better chance at competing for qb?
Just like he did this year? He sure got a lot of reps. Kind of like the great effort Fox did so Tebow could succeed in his only play last week. If that is the kind of effort the coach is going to give all his qb competitors, good friggin luck. He wll have another favorite qb and the others will be sent somewhere to do whatever and he will say they were not ready. I call BS.
Or hes liar who is stupid as well.....thats even less awesome...
I just think he is one arrogant man who thinks he is smarter than everyone else (which is one of the traits of being arrogant) who tries to soft selll the fans.
Problem: Dealing with one of the most passionate and educated fan bases in the NFL. Everyone is over him. Media and fans all turning on him at once…and deservedly so.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
i"m reaching this point as well.
Fox’s post game presser and local presser on monday showed me some of Fox’s character, and I don’t want a guy like that leading our young team.
Redskins fans said
Rex Grossman could be in danger of losing his spot to John Beck had the Rams beaten them Sunday because they’re going into a bye, so yes, during a bye, quarterback changes are not unprecedented
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:38 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree. Fox seems VERY hesitant to play Tim because of the way Tim plays the game. Tim isn’t a good fit for Foxball.
The problem is that Foxball hasn’t been winning games and hasn’t consistently won games in a long time.
So if and when we lose to the Chargers, commit the next 2 weeks (Bye week included) to letting Tim take 100% of the starter reps and let the guy have a chance before you ruin his future and Denver and hedge your bets on some kid playing college football right now.
That’s all I ask and I don’t think it’s an unreasonable request.
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by Nick Cast on Oct 4, 2011 9:52 AM MDT reply actions 9 recs
I am losing faith in Fox rapidly....the longer Orton stays in there and we lose the less I'll be confidence about the Broncos in 5 years.
by Tim Lynch on Oct 4, 2011 10:01 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Injury avoidance and/or a great HC or QB addition and/or two consecutive great drafts can turn a team’s fortunes in much less than 5 years. Look at Tampa Bay.
Dynasties are dead in the NFL. GB has a truly awesome QB and passing game, but their O-line and entire defense is nothing special whatsoever. That team could lose to several NFL teams on the road. The Patriots have a poor secondary and bizarre running game. These two are the cream of the crop.
I don’t think you can look 5 years down the road in the NFL anymore. Just two or three tops. Focus on two.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
I did. Two years. That’s all.
We draft another Von Miller type next year and we’ve got several young cornerstones on the roster.
Pair Von Miller with a pocket collapsing DT and Elvis and you’ve got your NFL sack leader for the next 5 years.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
by McGeorge on Oct 4, 2011 10:13 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
And a MLB who can be the captain of our D for the next decade? It isn't Mays
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Oct 4, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I know, I was just saying I am losing faith in whatever # of years you put in there.
It’s frustrating….the only way to get through to thick headed people is to headbutt them anyway….
I know
That is what I was doing daily at MHR from April 2009 until McJedi was fired.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
There isn’t a DT worthy of being drafted with the high draft pick we’re going to have. Get used to the name Vontaze Burfict.
I see him in Orange and Blue next year.
Von Dooooooooom.
A stud MLB. Dude, you don’t need to twist my arm. One of those would also look great next to Von Miller.
I just hope he is better than pending bust Renaldo McClain.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
to bad it looks like we are going to waste our pick on another qb
hope we can pick up another von in the later picks
I agree.
Did you catch Woody’s article this morning?
He mentioned that Bowlen and Elway debate or something along those lines.
I think that is pretty significant. Bowlen is not stupid. He knows what the fans want and if/when the fans stop showing up and he loses money, does he dare force Elway to start Tebow? Just a theory.
Follow me on Twitter: @ballinnickcast
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by Nick Cast on Oct 4, 2011 10:29 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
I would like to think Bowlen still has the where withal to do that. Concerns about his mental status and his love for Elway make me afraid he'll continue to take a backseat.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Oct 4, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions
yes but
Will foxy set him up with a chance to suceed or? Will Tebow not have the full backing of his head coach if Foxy is forced to make a change?
by CenCalBronco on Oct 4, 2011 2:11 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
If it is what he wants, he will demand it
Ultimately it was him that made the final decision to trade Cutler, and I have a funny feeling he was behind Tebow going in last year for the last 3 games. Hopefully he will have Orton benched for whomever sooner rather than later.
Drinkin the kool-aid, smokin the Orange Kush
My feeling is it will be on the road at Miami when we see Tebow
should Orton stink it up this weekend vs the Chargers
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Tebow starts on the game the Dolphins honor Tebow...how fitting
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Forgot about that
Coincidence? I think not!
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
John came here to solidify the fan base
Unfortunately the opposite is true, not his fault but true
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
I am there with you Tim
A line I read on here the other day resinated with me.
We hired the one coach from last year that had a worse record than we did………..
I never really looked at like that before
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
It's fair to say he hasn't won for a long time
Jake Delhomme won with it, but the NFL has come a long way. I want Fox to succeed, but we shall see
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Delhomme also sucked quite a bit with it
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
So you think this offense is working out for him?
granted, WM ran for 100+ again,
Orton played well except the INTs of course
But every coach wants points in the red zone
any coqch will take that any way he can get it
Putting all of your thoughts together...
Suggests to me that Fox may really like what Tebow can do, but will not want to install him as a QB until the rest of the offense can be adjusted to that style of play. Sounds to me like he would be okay starting Tebow and a Tebow offense next year after having the offseason to make the proper adjustments. Primarily, I get that from “One thing nice about that is that it creates problems for the defense in the sense that you have an extra man when the quarterback can run.”
Fox appreciates the skills Tebow has and sounds like he would use them — once the proper offense was established around him.
by Ferris_ on Oct 4, 2011 9:54 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
That is a good assertion as well
No doubt, and I have thought about this – keep him off the field, leave the gimmick offense alone and get Tim ready during the offseason for 2012.. Good point.
-TSG
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that shall suffice Mr. Bena
especially if we still have success in 2011. You can’t tell me that our defense would be better against the Chargers than it would the Pack. Green Bay has played good teams already this year (except Chicago, they’re frauds) and Carolina but SD is a weak 3-1, don’t think we can’t get them!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
I disagree with part of that
This part
until the rest of the offense can be adjusted to that style of play.
Elway has already stated that if Tim is to start, he needs to learn how to play from the pocket. There will be some adjustment towards Tebow’s talents, but it is clear to me and always has been, that Tim needs to do the majority of adjusting and learning.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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I agree with both of you.
Tebow has some growing to do and the offense would be different.
by 3nS on Oct 4, 2011 10:06 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
The best and fastest way to grown is on the field and getting the 1st team reps in practice. I get no starting him if you have a better option, but Orton is proving to be nothing more than a well below average QB. So Kyle is no longer playing well enough to be considered a good or even acceptable alternative.
Bad teams play young players for a reason. The future. Orton = Denver’s recent past with no long term future.
Or play Quinn and see what you have in him since he doesn’t require a different offense. Denver has two better alternatives to staying the course with Orton.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
by McGeorge on Oct 4, 2011 10:09 AM MDT up reply actions 7 recs
Orton looks and plays like he fell off the Orton bus. Dude has lost confidence in himself.
Who cares what the coaches and teammates think. What the fans think. Orton doesn’t believe in Orton. Just watch him play. It’s obvious. It’s painful.
The writing is on the wall and Orton has both read and digested it perfectly.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
by McGeorge on Oct 4, 2011 10:16 AM MDT up reply actions 7 recs
I am starting to love your commentary McGeorge ;-)
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Ok, but I wasn't talking about Kyle
I think I have maintained that Timmy’s progress is in his and only his control. There are plenty of coaches on and off the team that are able to help him achieve his goals, but ultimately it all depends on him, despite what any of the fans say.
The Blame game needs to stop.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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What blame game. Tebow played in 2010 and he played well for a rookie QB. Orton has played poorly for most of the last 12 or so real games.
You are fully for holding Tim accountable for poor practice performance. I’m fully for holding Orton accountable for poor game performance.
One guy played well in his most recent starts and the other guy has not.
The blame game is meaningless. Just hold players accountable for game performance and make the switch when players don’t play well enough to keep starting jobs. It’s really that simple.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
by McGeorge on Oct 4, 2011 10:19 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm talking about the
Elway sucks, fox is out of his mind, Bowlen is senile, get rid of everyone because I unreasonably thought the Broncos ought to win 10 games because I am never wrong commentary that is prevalent on this site.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
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I haven’t heard anyone say
Bowlen is senile, get rid of everyone because I unreasonably thought the Broncos ought to win 10 games because I am never wrong
I’ve certainly heard Fox is out of his mind and Elway sucks.
I disagree on Elway. He’s a VP, not a coach. His performance is judged by the draft and he had a great 1st draft.
Fox on the other hand, has had a poor start to his Broncos coaching career.
Follow me on Twitter: @ballinnickcast
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Personally I give most of the credit of the
draft to the scouting department and Xanders. Not Elway
Then you haven't been reading the 20
QB posts that are on this site every day.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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Kaptain. All it boils down to right now is one bad decision Fox continues to make. Playing Orton as his starter. It really is that simple. Orton needs to be pulled as the starting QB. A part of me thinks he will after the San Diego game assuming we lose.
Winning cures all, but we are not winning. The angst is not about Elway, Bowlen, Xanders or Fox. It is entirely about Orton and continuing down a pointless path with him as the 2011 starting QB.
Pull Orton and the tone will change completely.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Totally random:
What’s your opinion on the Miami prospects for this year’s draft class?
Brandon Washington, Marcus Forston, Sean Spence, Ray Armstrong?
So far it looks like Spence is the best, but I haven’t been able to catch many games.
Follow me on Twitter: @ballinnickcast
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I need to see a few more ACC games. There are no sure fire 1st rounders that are Sr, but a lot of second day talent.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
I’ve been pleasantly surprised with Orlando Franklin. He more then held his own against Clay Matthews.
Beadles, on the other hand, has sucked big time. We might want to start looking for some guards or maybe an elite RT like Matt Kalil and move Franklin to G.
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Franklin missed one assignment where Matthews nailed Orton and blew up a play, but otherwise, he did fine. Better than I expected.
Our O-line has been better and is showing progress this season. I’m not going to call for any of their jobs right now when other parts of the team are clearly regressing. Namely Orton, Moreno, CBs and SS.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Agreed 100%
This is about Orton and his being the face of 3 years now of failure
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
I hear you
It could be Bowlen or Elway’s decision too. They are stuck with another McD contract until the end of the year. Maybe the next draft gets Timmy some foundational players around him and he actually gets an offseason of working with his coaches to achieve the starting spot.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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That is my dream Kaptain.
My nightmare is we spend a 1st round pick on Ryan Tannehill or some other Christian Ponder like prospect instead of drafting that DT or MLB we need to pair with Von Miller.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
I think they will continue drafting BPA
If they get the 1st pick, it will be Luck. If not, then I share your hope of the stud MLB. We need that badass LB corps that we used to have. Still a ways to go.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
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Then
pick him and trade for VBurflict and picks.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
I read this site religiously. I have never seen a post calling Bowlen senile.
I have definitely seen Bronco fans have high expectations, but I can’t blame them for their optimism. I said all along I thought we would be 7-9. It looks like we will be worse.
The point is that the majority of the people on this site are complaining because EFX said they were starting Orton because he gave them the best chance to WIN NOW. If we aren’t WINNING NOW, then why are starting Orton?
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Well Nick… I’m certain I’ve called Bowlen senile or the like a time or five.
I also think our franchise and how it is run has deteriorated (over the last five-ish years) into one of the worst run in the NFL. The austerity measures, Joe Ellis, the trading of key draft picks, the staff and roster turnover. Times are bad. Sticking with Orton is just more fuel to this fire.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
I for one am far from impressed with Elway.I don't think he is ready for the job at this point.
Elway is Matt Millen until he proves otherwise. I also hated the Fox hire from the start. I do like the way the defense is turning around…slowly, but it is still turning.
Life's too short for bad tone!
Well, I have not called Bowlen senile, but I think his health is in question for sure.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
We have questioned Fox's past
My son is a Panthers fan….ask him his thoughts on John Fox and the heartache he has had during the Fox reign
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
I don't
maybe in 1-2 years
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
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what is this super-kool-aid you have?
…and where can i get some?
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
Not even close...
McD couldn’t have screwed this franchise more if he’d been assigned to do it (maybe he was). It’s so bad I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t leave a dead fish in an air vent somewhere in Dove Valley.
Elway is in, Zimm is in, Little is FINALLY in but don't forget: Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater & Terrel Davis
by BlueNOrangeNIdaho on Oct 4, 2011 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
He did. That dead fish is Kyle Orton.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
by McGeorge on Oct 4, 2011 11:18 AM MDT up reply actions 19 recs
Plus one my friend...
LOL
Elway is in, Zimm is in, Little is FINALLY in but don't forget: Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater & Terrel Davis
by BlueNOrangeNIdaho on Oct 4, 2011 11:20 AM MDT up reply actions
Darn
I think I flagged it on accident…sorry.
Elway is in, Zimm is in, Little is FINALLY in but don't forget: Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater & Terrel Davis
by BlueNOrangeNIdaho on Oct 4, 2011 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions
no
that was a turd.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:43 PM MDT up reply actions
Ugh
Thanks McGeorge, fish is one of my favorite foods, now when I go to Long John Silver’s or McGrath’s, I have to think, oh my gosh, did I just eat Kyle Orton? It is true though!
Brad James
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With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I hate to be the one to tell you this....
but I’m pretty sure Long John Silver’s doesn’t serve actual fish (my wife and I like to refer to it as fish style product:)
http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/alton-brown/hot-smoked-trout-recipe/index.html
Now THIS is real fish!
Denever may have a worse record than last year...or it may struggle to 6 wins, but that will be the max.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
It would be beneficial to the broncos if they got another top ten pick
So I say 6 or 7 wins
by tiderfootball09 on Oct 4, 2011 11:30 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
only if we hit a home run with it like we did this year.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Oct 4, 2011 1:33 PM MDT up reply actions
Mr. Bowlen deserves respect
he kept the Broncos here when the team could have left the Rocky Mountain Region and we have won our 2 Super Bowls under his watch. Kaptain is wise, as always, O Kaptain my Kaptain!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions
We are all thankful for what
Pat has done for the franchise and we are all concerned for his health and his selection of Joe Ellis
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Mcgeorge is correct kirk. Orton is the starter and we are losing that’s the stat and eyeball test that matters.
by always broncs on Oct 4, 2011 10:28 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Orton should not be the starter anymore
in my opinion, which perhaps doesn’t matter, but if Tebow is getting prepped for 2012, perhaps it does.
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
I hope you got my email
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
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Cool
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
KaptainKirk on FaceBook
good call...
I think it is likely TT will have a chance to succeed or fail to yet this season as QB, unless my some miracle the team starts winning. The fact is we are not very good yet – it will take time to right the ship. I am pulling for TT for many reasons, BUT totally agree his fate is in his hands. I understand why Fox has not played him thus far – locker room support, styles, poor practice play and TT just not being ready to be the type of pro QB Fox wants. I think if TT started the season he would be done already due to his 110% effort and trying to make all things happen in each play. I saw how defenders enjoyed nailing him in pre-season to prove a point that this is not college. Logic would suggest he will play this season if the team continues to slide. After that it is all up to TT to perform… there will be plenty of data to compare him to and should be no excuses if he is not the chosen one.
Kyle Orton as in Ortonairy... serviceable at best is what we hope for?
I'm sorry but him wanting to wait until next year
Thease guys are profesional and make a butt-load of cash. They should start now put him in and learn I see all kinds of teams starting rookies. and waiting is a waste of time and for Bowlan soon to be money. We have enough personal to spred the field.
by CenCalBronco on Oct 4, 2011 2:21 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree with you, that's what I got out of it too. I also don't think it's that revelatory.
If what we think he means is what he means, it goes with what a lot of other coaches, scouts and analysts will also tell you, which is Tebow needs a different style of offense to be successful. He does things that are special and that no one else can, but some of the more standard pocket design systems aren’t as much of a fit for him. It isn’t just Foxball/McCoyball, a lot of systems would have trouble plugging in Tebow as they stand. Which doesn’t mean they can’t tweak and revamp, and doesn’t mean he can’t succeed. But some changes would have to happen for him to be the every down starter is all.
Or, what Ferris said. ;-)
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers/Lakers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants/Warriors country, and damned proud of it.
Underdog
"I won't cry over spilt milk" - KO on "The Beatdown" :"It's just one of those deals" - KO on "The Drop" : "That was one of the best wins that I've been a part of" KO on "a week 2 win over the Bengals". " It was just bad luck" KO on "The game ending tipped Int at Tennessee"
Id go for UD too...he has amazing presence in the pocket.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
hah hah thanks
i had totally forgotten about batfink but love the character design for that old ’toon!
yeah as long as i remember to take my super energy pill i’d do all right.
Philip Rivers = Simon Bar Sinister
There's no need to fear, Underdog is here! / Broncos/Dodgers/Lakers fan in Niners/Raiders/Giants/Warriors country, and damned proud of it.
bulletproof wings that tacklers would bounce off of
and Karate as a blocker! Bat Fink is the truth!
Iron Maiden's Gonna Get You
by OldSchoolOrange on Oct 4, 2011 3:08 PM MDT up reply actions
Some commentaters has said
That if Denver goes with Tebow they go all the way. Meaning that Tebow is such a different qb that Denver would have to form the offense to Tebow. Apparently, Tebow is not as good running the current offense as Orton or Quinn. and to change qbs Denver would have to change the entire offense. I believe that when the Orton to Miami deal fell through that Denver decided to wait till next year change offenses. Next year Denver will do something like Philadelphia did and get a similar type qb to backup Tebow. I think Tim is the ideal qb for Foxball. He is more capable of getting first downs on third and short which allows Denver’ offense to eat up more clock.
I hope you are right!
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
by BroncoCUbuffs on Oct 4, 2011 10:23 AM MDT up reply actions
I hope you are correct but then say it. Not saying means they have no plans for tebow
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
Well lets just think
If this is the Panthers offense, how well has it performed in the NFL during Fox’s reign in Carolina?
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Back-up concerns...
Building an offense around one guy with a distinctive skill-set makes virtually impossible to keep it going in case of injury. And a running QB has a higher risk of getting injured and missing games. Look how different Philly is with Kafka (or Kolb last year) than Vick. This is why they got Young.
Similar instance, but different skill set, look at Indy. While no one can replace Peyton, now that the offense is clearly called from the sideline, and the formations (with a FB) are more conservative really shows how having “two” offensive schemes is virtually impossible to do in the nfl.
Very good point
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
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Very good point
I am myopic and missed it. So sorry. :)
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
KaptainKirk on FaceBook
Plus, NFL is a passing league
If I wanted to watch an offense with a run first QB scheme, I can get that on Friday nights at the local HS.
Vick is getting splattered in the pocket
As above he is getting killed trying to be a pocket passer.
He isn’t getting hammered due to running around.
So none of the above stands up to observation.
he gets injuried easily regardless. why?
because all his years in ATL and last year in Philly were spent with him running….getting banged up. He is now soft, because of his years of being a running QB.
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
Different systems...your point does not stand up....cant compare what GB and PHI do.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
Oh my gosh
my hometown high school football team never passes the ball, it freaking sucks
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Dude, people are talking about Tebow like this will be an offense we have not seen before...
Look, for one, the offense this year is no different from essentially what has been run the last 2 seasons. I dont agree with Guru that its a new system…its the same basic system, same terminology, with some extra wrinkles and a slant of running game. McCoy has said as much. This system is vanilla, and Tebow…shit, any QB…can run this system.
Two, buidling a game around a mobile QB aint hard…look at what GB do and CAR do….Tim throws a good deep ball, good on screens and good on the run, so give him a system with an o line that moves well laterally and changes the pocket and Tebow kills it. Aint that hard.
Three, Fox was covering his ass by saying there was a new system that Orton had to learn. Please, anyone, show me something new about our system excpet we run more and TE;s are now outlet recievers.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
thanks boydy people make the obvious very complex
oldcoachB
"The will to win, the desire to succeed, the urge to reach your full potential...
these are the keys that will unlock the door to personal excellence."
Something, that I think is getting lost in the shuffle in the whole "learning" the offense discussion
is the fact that Denver has the 28th ranked offensive line in terms of game experience: we have two players who are just 4 games into their 2nd season and 1 who’s a rookie.
In essence, our offensive line is just learning to play the McCoy offense as a complete unit with a quarterback who does exactly what is designed & very little more. We saw in the preseason what can happen when Tebow takes off on his own improvisation: two offensive penalties called on linemen on the same play.
So far as GB & CAR, it would be helpful to remember that Newton inherited an offensive line that is currently ranked 8th in NFL in terms of game experience, while Rodgers inherited an offensive line that was ranked 8th in terms of game experience. I would think it would be much easier to make adjustments for a more mobile quarterback when you’re offensive is already solid on the fundamentals.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Oct 4, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions
I get what your saying
but I’m not so sure I like the game experience as a comparison. Pouncy was an elite center last year for the Stealers yet with your rankings he actually lowered them on this scale. In actuality they were better with him in the game.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions
OL is such a "unit"
That you can’t discount not only the aggregate experience, but also aggregate TOGETHER.
Take Mangold out of the Jets line and you have what happened Sunday night – a beatdown by the Ravens front 7.
Pouncey may be good individually, but the Steelers OL is going to get Big Ben hurt this year.
Win the individual battles at the LOS - all else flows from that.
by DE_BroncoFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:34 PM MDT up reply actions
I understand what you are saying
I just took issue with throwing that stat out by itself. It is a bit missleading.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Sorry Brian....I am calling BS
You are essentially saying that the reason for Orton starting is our offensive line is made up of a bunch of dumb asses, and that Kyle Ortons lack of athleticism is the reason to start him as it helps the o line to play slow. Yep, makes perfect sense!
There is nothing new with McCoys offensive line….they did the same things, with the same terminology last year. To keep saying this is a completely new system is frankly wrong. Of course it has some differences…..but the offense was not blown up and started again. McCoy has said all along staying with essentially the same system.
B, saying this tongue in cheek, sure MHR is not owned by the Denver Broncos as this comes across to me as coming from the John Fox school of excuse making!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
Boydy, that's not what I said at all
What I said was we have a very young o-line: 3 of the five with one or less full seasons of experience. They struggled last years, in part, due to the fact that it wasn’t until nearly mid-season that we saw the same five guys start at the same positions two games in a row. Add in a rookie this year, and there is more learning that needs to take place to grow into a solid unit.
Add in the fact that to-date, McCoy’s offense has not been built around a highly mobile quarterback. So you have 4 guys who have worked for a season to learn a system not predicated on a mobile quarterback and a rookie who is just learning the system.
Add in the fact that the coaches did not have a full off-season to install anything new. All of these compound the issues surrounding who should start.
It in no way excuses Orton’s poor play in the first four games of 2011, nor would I go on record at this point in even suggesting that Orton should start.
What it does do, is highlight the task facing the coaches and players in order to make a shift in the quarterback spot. It’s not as simple as simply plugging in a different guy.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Oct 4, 2011 12:45 PM MDT up reply actions
Remember when John Elway was a rookie
Before John Elway, Denver ran very little shotgun in their offense. The team adapted to John’s talent by running more shotgun, rolling the pocket a lot, and using more play action and boot legs. You can adapt an offense to a QB’s skills set without completely changing the offense.
KT3...dont bring sense in here. Tebow could kill it in the system as we have it now with addition of roll outs and moving the pocket.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
Didn't Reeves fire Shanahan for writing plays that best fit what Elway could do?
McCoy is no Shanahan and will run bubble screens and 6 yd pass plays all day. Elway needs to trade Tim to give the kid a chance to play and we’ll sit on our hands till Draft day 2012 and hope it brings some amount of good news.
broncorat
"Orton doesn't throw many interceptions or make many mistakes, is what his supporters say. But he throws interceptions at the worst possible times and makes mistakes at the worst possible times." W. Paige, 9/15/2011
Look, IO am not convinced any more that its Elway. I think he likes Tebow...
Its all on Fox…its his MO and has been for ever….loyal to veterans and under dogs……I am frankly sad that Fox is so set in his ways.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
right on!
one of the more intelligent observations, “you can adapt an offense to a qb’s skill set.” all one has to do is look at how the game has changed in the last couple of years. it’s pass, pass, pass with a nimble qb and throw in the run to keep a defense off guard. we do not have a nimble starting qb. however we do have one waiting in the wings. i’ll tell you how bad it is watching orton for me, i didn’t watch the game vs. green bay. just checked updates on the computer. watched golf instead. been 38 yrs. since i missed a game. start of the season i said 3-13 if orton was the qb, want to see if we have something in tebow. if not, we still have a high draft pick and can go after a qb.
Fox is just waiting
to hire Urban Meyer as his offensive coordinator in the offseason
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
in which we will go balls to the wall Tim Tebow or bust
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Oct 4, 2011 10:17 AM MDT up reply actions
ya know what... i actually would not be against that.
could be interesting, but i dont know if Urban would would take just an coordinator job. too proud to take anything but HC.
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
I highly doubt Urban Meyer will get back into coaching
to be a coordinator. He could have pretty much any head coaching job in college, and I wouldn’t be surprised to see several NFL teams offer him the position of HC if he were to start putting out feelers.
Of course, he is such a huge fan of Tebow that if there were any scenario in which he would take a coordinator’s job, it might be to call plays for Timmy again.
But, for that to happen it would require the front office and head coach to pretty much declare Tebow the Broncos franchise quarterback, and right now I not feeling too sure that he is figuring too much in their plans for the future (especially not Fox’s).
Hmmm
get rid of one ex-Utah Ute (McCoy) for another (Meyer), it’s good to know that we Utah Broncos fans see people we watched in college go to the NFL ranks for our favorite team! Actually, I think McCoy was a better collegiate QB than an NFL offensive coordinator, but that’s just me. McCoy’s college coach, Ron McBride, currently at Weber State, is a genius!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
meyer as a o.c.
if dullsville stays, why not just forego the niceties. can fox and hire urban as the head coach.
tim tebow
let’s face it tebow is the red headed stepchild at this reunion. he may or may not be a qb in the nfl, just not in denver. fox isn’t about to play him. it itsn’t going to make any difference anyway, the broncos won’t get a chance at the 1st choice in the draft. they’ll win enough games to just be out of the top 5 picks. very few if any players now will be on this team when it earns a playoff spot. they are at least 5 years away from that happening.
Whats the word on Demaryius Thomas?
I really can’t wait for him to comeback…should I assume post bye week?
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
from my understanding yeah.
he was supposedly out the first 5-6 weeks. so back week 7 is perfect. get some reps during the bye, come out and massacre dbs
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
careful with your fingers Bay-Bay!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:51 PM MDT up reply actions
he cost the team a roster spot
if he had just waited, and the team would have just waited…
and then there’s “but he couldnt help it getting injured”
at exactly when does this excuse begin to grow tired?
I've been thinking a lot about this
and this isn’t directly responsive to this, but I guess it’s just as good as any other thread to put it in (may do a fanpost with some more substantive data at some point when I have more time). Seems to me there are three arguments for going with Tebow.
Nobody could possibly be worse than Orton, or Tebow would have to give us a better chance to win
I’m pretty sure this isn’t true. As rough as Orton’s first four weeks have been, he’s still been better than about a dozen starting qbs. So there are plenty who are worse.
Now on to the real, non-trolly arguments.
We are wasting a chance for Tebow to get game time experience
I see very little evidence that playing in NFL games actually meaningfully contributes to players getting better at football. If anything, it seems to be they just get better as they get older. Philip Rivers, Matt Schaub, Tony Romo and Aaron Rodgers all were plus contributers as 25 or 26 year olds in their first meaningful action. Heck, even Chad Pennington performed well as a 26 year old in his first year. That jives with when a number of other quarterbacks had their first plus years, such as Drew Brees, after a few years of struggling as younger players. It seems to me age is more important than experience. Whether it’s because of physical maturity, or because you can actually learn something from the sideline, or a combination of the two, NFL QBs tend to plateau between 25 and 28 years old regardless of years played.
We can use the time to evaluate Tebow
I don’t really think there is any possibility of getting actionable information about Tebow’s future in his 24 year old season. Look at the list of 24 year old QB performance over the last decade and a half: http://pfref.com/tiny/j3lQN Just the evaluation process is at least two years. I guess you could argue that starting the process now would be beneficial, although it’s also possible that either (1) John Bena is correct, so the FO would prefer not to lose next year to evaluating Tebow when they would prefer to look at their new guy or (2) the FO believes they will get better information from Tebow’s 25 yo season and would prefer to start evaluating then. In any case, “evaluate for 12 games then decide whether to draft” as I see many advocating on this board is not viable.
i keep dancing on my own.
by atomiccafe on Oct 4, 2011 10:21 AM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Name me the 12 starting QBs playing worse than Orton in 2011.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
McCoy
Dalton
Smith
Cassel
McNabb
Cutler
Collins/Painter
Bradford
Gabbert/McCown
Jackson
OK so that’s 10, I had double counted Jacksonville. But I did say “about a dozen.”
i keep dancing on my own.
hahahahhahahahhah
ok – i’ll bite
Cle- they think McCoy can play QB – and I do too
Cin – Dalton is pretty good. getting good reviews and he’s been starting for only a few weeks now.
SF – Alex Smith just played the best game of his career
KC – Cassel played well last week – wven with ZERO talent and a terrible coaching situation
CHicago – 99 out of 100 teams would take Cutty iover Orton
Indy – their starter is Manning
StL – Brfadford is very good – ROY last year, crappy coach, tons of injuries, zero talent
JAX – Gabbert was a high pick and looks like he has tons of upside, makes mistakes, but hery – he’s a frickin rookie!
I’ll give you Minnesota and Seattle. FUnny thing is this – those teams could have easily has Orton. Did they? Nope. Did they know they had crummy QB’s? Yep. But they still said no thanks.
SO – you get 2 out of 10
by super7 on Oct 4, 2011 10:37 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
McG didn’t ask which ones have more trade value. He asked which were playing worse right now.
i keep dancing on my own.
Right, and only McNabb, Jackson, Collins of the VETERANS are playing worse.....and some of the rookies are killing him....so no way is he playing better than 12 qb's....thats just fanciful!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
You dismissed Super7's point
but it is important.
We tried to trade Orton for a cheap draft pick, only Miami seriously considered him and even if you were correct in your assessment of those 12, that indicts Orton as well because no one wanted him. We didn’t even want him. Now he is shoved down our throat like an albatross.
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
and moreover
Orton has no upside.
At least half of that list are guys playing their 2nd to 20th NFL game. Orton’s pleyed in almost 70 games.
by super7 on Oct 4, 2011 10:39 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
i answered this question
Name me the 12 starting QBs playing worse than Orton in 2011.
Where does that say anything about upside?
i keep dancing on my own.
It doesnt matter, you still lost the argument because most of the players on that list
are far better options than Orton at quarterback.
meh, we'll see at the end of the yr
if somehow orton manages to continue to start that long. I’m not really any higher on Orton than you guys, just a lot lower on the bottom tier QB play in the rest of the league.
i keep dancing on my own.
He won't. He isn't consistent enough to win enough to keep the fans at bay.
He will finish the season on the bench.
and crying like a school girl
pouting on the bench at the job he was thrust into and couldn’t keep…..and get ready us fans will take the blame
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
No… Orton doesn’t cry. Not while making $8.8MM.
He’ll just have the “dead in the eyes” look he has already mastered. He’ll be continue to be the dead fish he already is.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
It's really only 6
I’ll give you Cassel, McNabb, Painter, Bradford, Gabbert and Jackson.
McCoy, Dalton, Smith and Cutler are all performing better in their role than Orton is with his responsibilities.
Orton, as of today, is the 26th ranked QB, which will land us in the Top 10 of the 2012 NFL draft. That completely destroys the best chance to win argument Fox seems to have given up on.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
I think “best chance to win” was a pretty stupid thing to say with such a crappy team.
i keep dancing on my own.
I’d take Orton over Jason Campbell, Mark Sanchez, Rex Grossman.
Orton is what he is: very mediocre. Right situation (team and coach), he can be in the upper tier of the middle group of QBs. Wrong situation (our team/coach now), he drops to the lower part but he’s still in the middle.
Orton is playing and producing like maybe the 25th best QB. That isn’t the middle. It’s near the bottom.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Sure if you want to take snapshot of his current statistical performance. But if you look at his career and abilities, his potential is the middle if he is on the right team/coach.
His INTs this year are uncharacteristic. He hasn’t been a high INT guy. Is he pressing because of TT and the fans? Probably and he tends to fold under pressure. So if he was in a different situation, you’d see is normal medicore self.
I’m not Orton fan. He should have been dumped at the same time as McD (along with X). All three leaders should have been flushed (QB, coach, GM) instead of scapegoating one. That is what elite organizations do—they make a clean break.
Instead we fumble into the best PR move (hire the Anti-McD to appease the fans in the off-season—who cares if he is an old fashioned mediocre coach).
Well you got me. I agree 110%.
Although I do think Orton benefited from McJedi, whom made Orton look average. Now that McJedi is gone, Orton has regressed to his Chicago days where he was a part time QB. Dude isn’t middle of the pack. he really is much closer to the bottom. Guy was a 4th round pick and later trade throw in for many reasons. Other team’s don’t see him the way you do.
Sorry.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
has to get over his collapse when he is needed.
Don’t think that can be taught. He has done that to long. Part of who he is.
McCoy played well against the Titans
and Orton didn’t…. Dalton and Orton are a push, Cutler sucks worse :), T-Jack had 300 yards against the Falcons…
Brad James
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With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Cutler has the worst o-line in the league maybe
Iron Maiden's Gonna Get You
by OldSchoolOrange on Oct 4, 2011 5:28 PM MDT up reply actions
That may be true
but he continues to do lots of stupid things regardless of whether anyone blocks for him or not
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 11:07 PM MDT up reply actions
Sanchez, really?
If you suck on a team with such a good line and receivers, that’s bad.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
exactly... maybe this will put thing in perspective with Sanchez:
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
Joe Flacco sucked
in completing passes against the Jets, but those he did complete were all pretty good
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions
here is some
Henne, Cassel, Bradford, Collins, Gabbert , Sanchez, McCoy, Grossman, McNabb, Jackson.
To me Flacco is Orton with legs.
Tony Romo as well
and yeah Flacco is ridiculously overrated
And now for something completely different
by AlbertaBronc on Oct 4, 2011 11:05 AM MDT up reply actions
Grossman, Sanchez and McCoy are all playing better than Orton. Flacco too.
Orton is playing really bad this year and you have to account for that. We are not talking about 2009 or 2010 Orton, but 2011, post McJedi Orton.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Shanny would trade Grossman for Orton straight-up in a heartbeat. And Orton would play better for Shanny.
If QB longevity wasn’t an issue, Rex would take Orton over Sanchez as well. Rex could win faster with Orton right now than Sanchez.
That is nonsense. Pure nonsense.
Not the 2011 Orton. That guy isn’t the same QB. No way Shanny would trade for Orton nor would Rex deal for Orton with Sanchez.
Orton makes more and plays worse than both of them.
If Orton had trade value, he wouldn’t be a Bronco. Just because some like to call Orton underrated does that make it true. It isn’t. Orton is a below average starting QB that is overpaid. Those guys have very little trade value to anyone.
Our only bet is some contender loses their QB next weekend and they make a play for Orton. Other than that, not happening.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
The 2011 Orton is Fox’s Orton. Shanny would think that he could get more out of Orton. Orton has more potential than Grossman.
The 2011 Orton isn’t fixed anymore than the 2009 or 2010 Orton is. He is stil the same player. You have to look at his body of work.
He is mediocre period. Grossman isn’t as accomplished—he may have a better year but he has a much better OC and situation than Orton.
I agree that Orton has no trade value. No QB below the upper tier does. Why trade for a mediocre or worse QB when you can draft a new one with potential.
QB trades really only occur when a really good QB gets old and the team can get something for his legacy.
Or when the QB pouts and demands a trade.
I think Cutler was actually crying, not just pouting. Sorry I ever defended that guy.
Orton’s body of work wasn’t very impressive in Chicago. he blossomed a little under McJedi in late 2009 and early 2010, but was playing like his below average to lousy self by mid 2010 until today.
The guy already hit his ceiling as a player and now he is already on the decline. Just look at his last 10 games. A whole lot of stinkers in there.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Thats BS...EVERY team had a shot at Orton and only 1 team was interested....enough siad...and now Dolphins are looking at Garrrard and Del Homme !!!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
yeah, Orton is definitely poor value
at 8m guaranteed, which is why he’s less attractive than McNabb who’s a worse player but now on a more attractive salary.
i keep dancing on my own.
If you take compensation (Orton’s contract) and just “trade” Orton straight up for any of those guys, their teams would say yes. Not now in the middle of the season but in the offseason.
Now say that they are only renting Orton for 1yr/$8M and instead of dumping their own lame QB they surrender a draft pick—of course they say no.
I’m certainly not suggesting that teams would want to trade for Orton. They didn’t and won’t. He’ll be an FA and get a lowish contract to be a back-up next year.
Or Fox will win the internal debate and he’ll get a long term starter contract with the Broncos.
Or he’ll end up in a stopgap situation as a Hasselbeck-style starter where he may start 5 games and may start 16.
i keep dancing on my own.
Like he is here...or should be...hell, he is back up...not even a stop gap!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
I hate you for writing this. My worse case scenario.
“Or Fox will win the internal debate and he’ll get a long term starter contract with the Broncos.”
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
That would put me over the edge
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
I would probably need to take a real break from Denver football for a season or two. I couldn’t handle it.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
ESPN Total QBR
For the season Orton is 15th, http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/7050006/nfl-week-4-total-qbr-season-leaders
Week 4 he was 9th. Not sure if this says more about Orton or ESPN’s new metric.
Old school QBR he is tied for 18th on the season.
yeah and FO DYAR he is 18th
similar also in EPA IIRC. That’s pretty close to a consensus.
i keep dancing on my own.
All INTs are not equal
If it hits a receiver in the hands and they let it go airborne, it’s still just an INT. Kind of like all base hits in baseball are ringing hits after the fact.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Oct 4, 2011 4:41 PM MDT up reply actions
You see no evidence that playing in games makes a player better?
You cannot be serious. Think about that sentence, really. There’s only about 75 or so years and the second sentence of your post to disprove that.
by xteve on Oct 5, 2011 8:41 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I think there is a clear top 8 QBs in the league right now
Brady, Rodgers and Manning (if he ever comes back)
Rivers, Roethlisberger, Brees
Schaub and Romo
(I’m basing this on guys who have had at least 3 high level seasons, Stafford and others may join them) Out of those, Rivers, Roethlisberger, Rodgers, Schaub, Romo played at an elite or near elite level in their first year with significant playing time. You could make the argument that Brees and Manning did benefit from a year of learning on the job, though again particularly Brees started playing at a high level at exactly the same age as all of the previous 5 except Roethlisberger began receiving significant playing time.
I’m not sure exactly what to make of Brady, since he’s sort of a late bloomer, but he didn’t start playing at a high level until his 4th year as a starter. Did it really take him three years of on the job training to get it figured out? I guess he just has a somewhat different career path.
So yeah, given that most of the top QBs in the NFL today started playing at a very high level immediately after becoming the starter, I’ll stand by my statement that it’s age and not experience that’s driving it.
i keep dancing on my own.
does John Fox = Marty Schottenhimer?
This sounds the same as when Marty would lose and declare a new sense of “marty ball.” I hope that Dove Valley is open late and McCoy and Tebow are just building a playbook. if not I feel that Landry Jones could be the next Broncos QB. But hey if they draft QB’s like they did defense this past year, I’ll be reluctantly happy. I wish TIm the best though, of course Dan Reeves was reluctant to play Elway and we all know how that turned out, so who knows. But we can not afford a loss to SD, or I feel fans may burn Sports Authority itself to the ground.
Marty got to the playoffs though
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:54 PM MDT up reply actions
Fox has gotten to the playoffs too
and a super bowl
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
yeah I wasn't saying marty or Fox were bad coaches
just that Marty was notorious for playing a certain type of ball and declaring it over and over. it is what I think Fox does every monday when he says, Orton is our starter.
by graff_stuff690 on Oct 4, 2011 10:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Seems to me
That Fox is saying that Tebow & BQ doesn’t know the O. But Orton does, better than the other 3 anyway. And that may be why you only saw Orton, even in a blowout last week. He’s still learning.
I’m sure his behind closed doors justification for starting Kyle differs from what he is talking about here.
It also seems like Fox is saying that the only way Timmy is gonna play in the short term is as a running QB. Not a passer.
Her’e my thought though. It’s not like McCoy’s never worked w/ Quinn & Tebow, and Fox insinuates that Tebow needs to play in a spread offense or gimmick offense. I don’t understand this. Denver runs a lot of plays in shotgun. Denver runs a more run heavy offense early in games, but that tends to dissipate once we start losing by lots or getting shut out of the run game. It’s not like our Q1 offense is any good! And aside from the GB game, it seemed to me that Denver was most successful in a spread-type passing offense. Now, maybe Tim isn’t smart enough and can’t read the D, and I would totally belive that
.
@captain80 – good point, I just don’t agree. In the NFL, you go ALL IN on your starter. WHen your starter gets hurt, your season is over, no matter what your offensive system is. Are you asserting that the Colts were ill-prepared for Peyton Manning’s injury? Of course they were, no team in the NFL gives much thought about their backup QB. For example, Joe Flacco’s backup is a running QB. Backup Qbs are a roster spot. No something to fgreak out over. Unless you’re a team who has a QB problem.
I am not advocating for Tebow here. I just don’t buy the line of reasoning. If Denver benches Orton, they are admitting that the seaon’s lost. I’m not sure who tehy think they’re fooling.
I wish Fox was a bigger jerk about it.
All he has to say is: “Tim is not ready or capable to do what we want him to do. He may or may not be at some point in the future, but that’s not now. Kyle Orton is the de facto starter here and unless he can’t start, he will start.”
That may help shut the fans up a little. Every MOnday in the Post I hate seeing the “Fox sticking with Orton” article. Drives me nuts. I know he is, but it’s not a story if Fox or Elway or Sacco would just address it.
A lot of people here and elsewhere are making this out to be more complicated than it is:
Fox likes Orton best and doesn’t think Orton’s the problem on offense. That’s his right. He doesn’t owe anyone the Tim Tebow experience.
Personally, I think Ortons about the 29th or 30th best starter in the NFL – so I say out with the old, but I’m just a season ticket holder who knows that Denver is a crappy team who is growing more disinterested in the team every week.
And yes, I want us to play well, but lose because I want Andrew Luck. And I still scream and holler and paint up and tailgate and spend ridiculous amount of money at the games. I just want Denver to get THE BEST talnet available. Like we did last draft when we picked 2nd. Von is already our best player. More please!
by super7 on Oct 4, 2011 10:32 AM MDT reply actions 2 recs
I'm with you that this is becoming a problem
but really the media is becoming the issue here, even Tebow haters are wondering why he isn’t starting. SOMEONE in the front office needs to step up and say something, ANYTHING to either reaffirm that Orton is the starter till the season ends, or Tebow will start after the bye week.
by graff_stuff690 on Oct 4, 2011 10:40 AM MDT up reply actions
It’s kinda funny also that Fox seems to think Tebow needs the spread offense to succeed when to my eyes Orton also plays better out of shotgun with 4+ WRs.
i keep dancing on my own.
Don't confuse the Shotgun snap and the spread offense
Two very different things.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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I’m still not totally certain what the spread offense is. I know Tebow didn’t supposedly have to make reads at Florida, but Bradford running very similar formations had pro-style reads of some sort. But people still tend to call OU’s thing the Spread.
i keep dancing on my own.
The spread is:
An offense that uses 4-5 WR to spread out a D and take advantage of mismatches caused by LB’s covering players or leaving the middle of the field open to short underneath throws.
The spread can be run in Shotgun, Pistol, Under center, or really anyway to center can get the ball to the QB!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:19 AM MDT up reply actions
the Pats do for sure
and the Saints, I’ve seen the Ravens do it sometimes even
Brad James
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With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions
the heart of the spread
is contained in the name: it “spreads” a defense out laterally, from sideline to sideline. It maximizes the area of the field of play, which creates more space for the offense against the defense. It is primarily done through route trees of the receivers, which is why it is common to see 4-5WR sets. However, it also can be done with wingbacks, 2 TE sets, and multiple runners, including the QB.
Have courage for the great sorrows of life and patience for the small ones; and when you have laboriously accomplished your daily task, go to sleep in peace.
by Jeremy Bolander on Oct 4, 2011 1:32 PM MDT up reply actions
You might want to go back and re-read Fox's comments...
He didn’t say that Tebow and Quinn still need to learn the current offense. In fact, he says exactly the opposite, that they both understand the offense as well as Orton:
“Let me just clarify: Tim Tebow knows our base offense as well as [QB] Brady Quinn does and really [QB] Adam Weber for that matter and Kyle Orton.”
Fox is stating that ALL the quarterbacks on the roster know the system pretty much equally. Now, if he said somewhere else that Orton knows the offense better than the other two, that brings up other issues (i.e. Fox’s credibility), but what he said in that piece is that none of the quarterbacks are behind in learning the offense, which suggests that he believes Orton is the better quarterback in his system than Tebow is.
If that’s the case, I think he really needs to reconsider what system he’s running, but that is just one fan’s opinion.
This is shaping up to be one of the most colossally stupid mistakes in all of sports history.
by Sayre Bedinger on Oct 4, 2011 10:34 AM MDT reply actions 4 recs
but but but Orton gives us ....
Kyle Orton doesn't care about me yet EFXs expects me to have his baby every time we lose.
I'm beginning to think John Fox is an asshole.
and I dread watching the games now and find them un-enjoyable.
So why did I just leave a comment?
I agree we shouldn't start Orton
But that’s one of the most colossally, stupid exaggerations I’ve ever heard.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Can’t wait to see the home fan hate spill over vs San Diego! O boy..
Sunday will be very ugly guys. Be forewarned. The next game may be the worst/least home field advantage for Denver we’ve seen in many of our lifetimes.
And I don’t think that is an exaggeration. Living social isn’t going to save Orton or this staff from the boo birds, Tebow chants. That rests entirely on Orton’s shoulders and we all know how he handles pressure recently.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
The first game was absolutely nothing compared to what this Sunday could be.
The first time Orton throws an interception….
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Ready for a middle finger to the crowd? Actually I’m not. I don’t expect Orton to show he cares about the crowd, the score, his play. Just that “dead in the eyes” look he has mastered this season.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
This Sunday will be a conversation to John Fox about all his comments
and how the fans here feel about it. One thing that seems to have happened because of McD, the coach will have to earn the fans respect, we will not blindly give it anymore. At least not for awhile.
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
All because of Kyle Orton
I do feel bad for him but not as bad as I feel when I see him running our offense.
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
You know to win this game the team needs to play well right?
That includes one of the worst secondaries in football. Orton will be a big factor in this game, and it will likely end his career in Denver, but to win our terrible secondary is actually going to have to stop a QB.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
THATS THE FACT, JACK!
When I asked for P. Peterson in the draft I was told our secondary was in good shape. Now, I love the Von Miller pick. I was WRONG about him, but darn I’d wish we got a CB too
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:36 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't understand this?
Champ and Goodman are a good tandem. Rodgers barely even through at Goodman on Sunday because the other side was so easy. Goodman is a find 2nd CB. We couldn’t draft for depth at CB when we need to draft starters at other positions in immediate need. We did take 2 safeties in the early rounds. One is already a starter and I suspect the other starts playing for BDawk on obvious passing downs soon.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
They are but
its week 5 and they haven’t been on the field together more than 1 game this season. Age sucks! Bodies wear out, Champ is one of the best CB to ever play the game but he can’t play forever. When was the last time he played a full season, two…three years ago?
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree....but....
…we had immediate needs at starter positions. We had to fill those first. Otherwise, what if Champ comes back next week and the CBs play the rest of the year together? We didn’t bother filling the immediate opening at LB (or RT). Depth is a luxury our talent starved team won’t have for a couple of years.
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
which part?
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
Confused
How can Cam Newton and Andy Dalton learn a new offense and learn on the job but tebow can’t?
To me it is a load of old cobblers.
Play Tebow, find out if he has it or doesn’t and then move forward.
If tebow plays well great.
If he doesn’t you can show the fanbase it didn’t work and move the franchise forward.
I’m not normally one for going with the fans but this is going to be cancerous if it isn’t played out one way or the other.
Standing pat and losing proves nothing and will just back the entire management team into a corner.
by AlleyCat. on Oct 4, 2011 10:37 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
YOU GUYS ARE TOO FUNNY!!!
Rofgers has a career day, breaks Packers records..6 TDs
and all you think is the matter is Tebow not playing..
stop it, you’re killing me!!!
by heykyleinsf on Oct 4, 2011 10:39 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
We have lots of issues
So why does playing tebow make it any worse?
If we believe this season is a wash find out what you have.
Don’t play a QB who everyone in the league knows what he can and cannot do.
At least you know what your draft strategy is going forward IF you learn what you have in your 1st round QB.
Not playing a 1st round QB is lunacy.
I don't think anyone is saying the QB situation is the only issue.
This post was just trying to shed light on what the coaching staff is thinking w/r/t Tebow/Orton.
Regardless of how anyone feels about Orton, you have to admit he was tossed into a crappy situation from the start. At this point I’m just willing to cut bait and just say “sorry dude, this was just a messed up deal from the start. Good luck elsewhere.”
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 4, 2011 11:09 AM MDT up reply actions
Agreed, Orton got put in a horrible position
Not that I’m defending him one bit for his play on the field, the guy just can’t handle pressure, but the team really hung him out to dry in this situation.
Once the Miami trade fell through and it was obvious that there weren’t any other interested parties, Orton should have been cut to allow all parties to move forward. It would have been the best opportunity for Orton (he could have tried to catch on with another team), the best situation for the team (they wouldn’t be currently playing out the string with I hope a lame duck quarterback, and could have seen just how much of a priority quarterback needs to be in the draft), and it would have been good for Tebow and Quinn (let them battle it out in preseason to see if either of them has the chops to lead the team).
Instead, we get the “best chance to win” farce, a quarterback who can’t handle pressure being thrown into a pressure packed situation where his career is pretty much derailed, what will probably amount to a lost year and a lot of bitterness with the new regime over their handling of the situation.
Not true. We’d all love to draft a CB very early in the 2012 draft to prevent more days like that.
Too bad EFX may wasted that much needed pick on Orton’s replacement.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
I would easily use our 1st on Dre Kirkpatrick or Morris Claiborne.
Follow me on Twitter: @ballinnickcast
Xbox360 gamertag: SnipeMeHarder
This guy
Dre Kirkpatrick
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
is he really good?
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Say it out loud. Rof-gers.
Kind of a hilarious nickname if you ask me.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Mr. Rofgers
was a weird cardigan sweater-wearing man that took preschoolers to the Neighborhood of Make-Believe via a magic trolley. I remember when Lynn Swann guest-starred!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions
the Packers do this against everyone
you will see this season that our defense is our strength
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions
like your name we wish Kyle was in SF
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Question about TWO different offenses
I’m not anywhere close to being as “football smart” as the rest of the people here but if there would need to be two different offenses, 1 for Tebow and 1 for the rest of the QBs on the team then what offense was the coaching staff working on in the 6 months BEFORE TC and the season started?
If the Broncos were seriously thinking of trading Orton before camp and giving the start to Tebow then they either a) thought Tim could run the offense they had or b) were planning to install the Tebow offense.
Now all of a sudden Kyle needs experience in the “new” offense (is this the Tebow offense?) and it is not suitable for Tebow. For the average non X & O fan like me there sure seem to be a LOT of mixed messages coming out of DV.
In any case, I don’t see any need or sense in continuing to start a losing 4th round QB when we have two 1st rounders on the bench who may be better.
Making it up as you go along
I assume the reality is that the management team have now backed themselves into a corner and can’t be seen as bowing to the amateur hour.
How embarrassing would it be if Tebow came in and blew out the chargers after orton stank it up in GB?
Keep Tebow on the bench, and if Fox and Elway feel a QB change needs to be made, go to Quinn. Both Quinn and Orton will be free agents next year.
Have Tebow learn this year and see if he can beat out Matt Barkley next year.
BUT WE HAVE TO PLAY HIM NOWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!!
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
Like Pete Carroll
will let us get Matt Barkley…
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 1:44 PM MDT up reply actions
That's not a very good suggestion at all...
You don’t draft multiple first round quarterbacks to see if they can beat each other out. It’s a horrible use of resources, and a bad situation for the players chosen in that scenario.
You use a first round pick on a player because you feel they have to ability to be a starter in the league eventually. If you have questions about whether they can do it or not, you need to do a better job on the evaluation process.
The Denver Broncos are a Joke
We’re back to being a laughing stock of the NFL.
We hire the coach who had a worse record than last year
We try to trade Orton in the Offseason, but that failed and now we’re sticking with him as the ship sinks
We have a John Elway as a VP trying to institute the type of football that he hated as a QB
All signs point to drafting a QB early next draft, while DT, CB, MLB still suck
Man I miss those 8-8 seasons from Shanahan, at least you knew there was always a chance with those teams.
MOZGOD Member #35
With Champ and Squid the CB position doesn't suck
Unfortunately squid is done for the year and Champ has only been on the field for one game
Win the individual battles at the LOS - all else flows from that.
Sad very sad but succinct
Especially “We have a John Elway as a VP trying to institute the type of football that he hated as a QB”
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
This write up is perfect!
Orton is a drop back passer that uses the run to setup the pass…AKA John Fox.
Tebow is a spread QB…AKA the REST of the NFL
The NFL has changed and John Fox forgot to come along. Watch any team on Sunday the league has become a pass happy league. Running to setup the pass is long gone. Look at the last few teams in the Super Bowl. Green Bay runs a spread, Arizona runs a spread, New England runs a spread, and Pittsburgh has even left the run first attack. The league moved on without John Fox and Denver is paying the price for hiring a DC as Head Coach. Need proof look at Carolina this year. Cam Newton is killing it throwing the ball around, spreading it out, and just simply taking advantages of the mismatches. The Denver offense is setup for the spread attack too look at how prolific this Offense was last year. Tebow is a spread QB. In the spread you have to move the pocket and Orton simply can’t do it. I truly understand now why Tim Tebow sits. If he plays in this Offense he fails, period! The playing calling would make any of the QB’s today look bad including Orton. So its time I realize it might not be Orton….Fox may hold more blame than I originally thought.
John thanks for this write up! I know now I was putting blame on the wrong guy’s shoulders! Orton does deserve some, but most falls on the system brought here by John Fox!
Cam Newton has Steve Smith, Shockey, Olsen.
They make him look good. We talk about hollow stats for a QB, and how Orton racks them up…. so does Newton. just sayin.
But I agree, and so does the rest of the world, that the NFL is now a QB driven league; has been for a while
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
Steve Smith is Eddie Royal
We have Royal, Lloyd, Decker, Thomas, Felts, Moreno..etc. This is a spread attack. Cam Newton with the Denver D this year, might be better than you think. Now I’m NOT a Cam Newton fan but I have to notice what he has done so far.
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:15 AM MDT up reply actions
Steve Smith
is far better than Eddie Royal. If all of our WR’s are healthy, however, I would rather have our group. The problem is that they are never all healthy and playing at the same time. If we can sort that out I believe our WR unit is elite.
by grind_core on Oct 4, 2011 11:21 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
A younger Steve Smith is
but right now….If healthy I’d take Royal!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:23 AM MDT up reply actions
plus none of our wr/te are seasoned pros like carolina has. Lloyd has one outstanding season. thats all :/
BUT… we are getting there. Decker is the real deal. verdict still out on OJ and Bay Bay
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
Indeed. We have a young core of very talented receivers. A lot of people are giving up on Bay Bay but I’m not one of them. I watched him play in college, that kid is amazing.
Dez Bryant has been pretty stellar in his own right, but I know that when DT comes back he is going to make people forget all about Bryant.
Thomas
is a down field beast. If he can get healthy and regain he’s speed he had. Not to many can beat him down the field. Sort of a Randy Moss type player. NOT RANDY MOSS! But the way he can explode in the deep passes.
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:32 AM MDT up reply actions
That's really debatible
Newton’s receiving core has a ton of potential as well. They have more big names than us and just as much younger talent, if not more younger talent. Brandon LaFell, Armanti Edwards, Seri Ajirotutu, Legadu Naane. Going into the 2010 draft I liked LaFell more than I liked D. Thomas.
And now for something completely different
by AlbertaBronc on Oct 4, 2011 11:35 AM MDT up reply actions
And I’m a Cam Newton fan. The Panthers are kinda my second team since I’ve lived in NC for so long. Despite his off the field stuff, on the field the guy is the real deal.
I agree
I talked with Cam Newton when he played for the National Title while at Blinn CC. In my job I meet alot of talented players while in JC. Cam Newton has the tools to be good in football I just hope his life doesn’t mess it up!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:26 AM MDT up reply actions
So you are saying Orton fits John Fox’s system and THIS is the result? A losing QB that leads the league in INTs and turnovers on a 1-3 team. That is a scary thought for John Fox.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Unfortunately yes!
This system is setup for failure. That’s why John Fox’s teams have failed in recent years. The league changed, he didn’t!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:30 AM MDT up reply actions
Actually tied with Rivers for INTs, and I think Mark Sanchez probably leads the league in turnovers after the Baltimore game. But hey, what are facts?
I'm not going into stats as facts debate
Stats are stats and Facts are Facts.
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions
What? If a QB goes 10 for 15 in passes, then he went 10 for 15. That’s a stat and a fact. If someone has more turnovers than someone else, that’s a fact. I know you Tebow fans like to disband all logic, but seriously, you can’t be that moronic, can you?
Moronic, really!
“I know you Tebow fans like to disband all logic, but seriously, you can’t be that moronic, can you?”
Just because I didn’t want to get into a stat as fact battle with you, I’m moronic? A stat is a stat and fact is a fact. I didn’t bring them up, I don’t care about stats! Stats are feel good food for the lonely and weak! If you base your judgement simply on stats of a player, not the play of a player than you are wrong. Leadership is not a stat, but its a fact! Trust is not a stat, but a fact! Teamwork is not a stat, but a fact! Do you get it!?! Stats are numbers in a row that so called experts use to make themselves feel good about themselves, not the player!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 3:44 PM MDT up reply actions
Leadership is not a stat, but its a fact! Trust is not a stat, but a fact! Teamwork is not a stat, but a fact!
Uh, not sure I agree with you 100% on your policework, Lou.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 4, 2011 3:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Ha!
That was a bit off eh? It is a concept MHP no a provable fact.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
Calling someone moronic is quite shameful
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Fact. Orton leads the NFL in turnovers and he is the league leader in INTs, even if he shares this non-distinction with Rivers.
You Orton fanbois really must be bumming lately.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
its a team effort
can’t put that all on Orton. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight…..where are those guys at now? good thing they got Orts back, but where are they?
Tebow is not currently the second coming of Elway or Montana
All that ails this 2010 4-12 team cannot be solved by a quarterback change. Last I checked, Tim only plays one position in a team game. Yeah it made me scream watching Orton throw the pick 6 and miss on the touchdown to Lloyd. But if Tebow doesn’t know the offense well enough to run the plays that did work (and there were many that did), how is that an improvement?
Throw a “run first” rookie into situations he’s still learning to read and you get him killed. This isn’t college, he’s not outrunning or running over many in this league—ask M. Vick. And when they catch you, it isn’t pretty.
EFX is letting Orton play himself out of a job while Tim learns the offense. If he knew it so well, he’d be starting—just like Franklin, Miler, and Moore. Being lost at quarterback is harder to hide, and more dangerous physically. We have a serviceable “backup” in Orton to keep the seat warm while Tim gets up to speed.
In the meantime, the coaches are trying to plug a lot more holes that aren’t helping us win right now. We’re not 1-3 because of one position. All 3 phases of the game have burned us in each game. Changing quarterbacks won’t fix this team, it’s going to be an ongoing process. We got sh*tty over a 5+ year period. Not going to fix that in 4 games.
hey.. i think special teams are kicking ass
..We're 1-15 till we're not..
They say the cool is all over me..
For the most part, yes
But they still gave up a possession this week, and had a punt blocked against the Raiders. They’ve got room to improve as well.
“All that ails this 2010 4-12 team cannot be solved by a quarterback change”
Nope. If we had an elite QB, we would be in the hunt for the playoffs.
Put Rodgers or a healthy Manning on our team and we are an instant condender.
That doesn’t mean we don’t have other flaws. We do but we have enough talent to win if we had an elite player at the most important position.
And I’m not saying Tebow is or will be an elite player so if by QB change you mean the QBs on our roster, sure. But no one is arguing that playing Tebow will make us more competitive.
I want Tebow to play if anything just to see what he's got.
Same can be said for Quinn or Weber. What we know we have with Orton is an average QB who is afraid of his own shadow, and has about as much touch on the ball as Hellen Keller.
Get well soon Juan.
Wrong!
Put Rodgers or a healthy Manning on our team and we are an instant condender.
Put Rodgers or a healthy Manning on our team and use the offense that they run. Then we may be an instant condender, but not just adding them.
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:47 AM MDT up reply actions
Our receivers are just as good as Indy’s. Not GBs but we have decent talent there.
Our offense would be much better with an elite QB. Any NFL offense would.
That is sort of the point. Most NFL teams would become instant contenders if Rodgers or a healthy Manning joined them.
Again wrong
In a run first O like John Fox uses. Adding Manning is pointless! Manning is a shotgun, pick you apart, and go on the fly QB. That’s not the John Fox style. You have to change to play calling to fit the QB. John Fox wouldn’t do that. He tries to change the QB to fit the play calling! Kinda like a grandparent won’t try the internet because they feel it does work as good as a phone book!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 11:58 AM MDT up reply actions
OK, you win the argument.
If we had Rodgers or a healthy Peyton Manning our offense would be no better than it is now.
In fact, if we had those guys, John Fox would probably call even more running plays. What makes those guys great are their coaches. Who knew…
Not if the defense gets schooled like it did against GB
An elite QB helps one phase. Not the one that gave up 35 points (14 I attribute to Orton + special teams). We do that against the good teams and we’re 7-9 at best, elite QB or not.
GB has the best offense in the league. We don’t have to beat them to be in the playoff hunt (a contender).
If we had an elite QB are we 3-1 instead of 1-3 right now? I say yes.
Not even elite....people hate me saying this, but whatever...we are 3-1 / 2-2 with Tebow, 3-1/ 2-2 with Quinn
Thats how bad Orton is….Fox can say what ever the hell he wants!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
it is sad Boydy
We are in the depths of foolishness by our head coach (who happens to be 3-17 in HIS last 20 games)
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Agree D....now I know how McGeorge felt about McDaniels...and I used to ride poor McG hard...now I will be ridden hard as I feel that way about Fox!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
Heh heh
the Broncos homepage has a story about the Drive for Life and I totally know the Bonfils guy who is pictured.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 4, 2011 11:11 AM MDT reply actions
One things for sure, the front office never handled this situation well.
Fox seems to be indicating that they want to sit Tebow and groom him. Similar to the way that the packers treated Aaron Rodgers.
This was always the likely intention, but I have to question the FO. Why didn’t they come out and say it much sooner. I dont know the motives behind these actions. I do know that this was a pretty strong statement for Tebow in the future.
About Fox. He deserves the criticism because we are losing, but keep in mind he is in his 1st year here and hasnt had to much time with the guys. Its no excuse, but the guy shouldn’t be fired. Give the guy 3 yrs unless we implode next year.
I think it's more they don't want to put all their chips into Tebow
until they are 100% sure he is ready and the real deal and right now I don’t think they are even 50% confident he is. I do think they like him and plan on continuing to develop him which is why I think he’ll be with the team next year no matter what happens. However I also think they will go into the draft and look at every single QB available just like last year only this year they will leave with one as well. The question is which round will that be in and will he be able to beat Tebow for the starting job.
And now for something completely different
by AlbertaBronc on Oct 4, 2011 11:53 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Packer fan here
sorry about the beatdown. I was at the game and didn’t agree with rodgers staying in it once we got the shields interception. flynn should have taken over there.
My question to you broncos fans is this…
If you had an absolute #1 no doubter QB (granted there are only a handful out there) like Rodgers, do you think there would be such manlove for Tebow to start?
Part of me thinks yes, part of me thinks no. Tebow is a strange phenomenon… Not calling him a phenom, just something that doesn’t occur every year. He got so much love in Florida that his supporters think he’s the second coming of Christ. I can see why; given his blood-stained intensity and the speech about not loosing another game and such. He’s got the charisma to play QB. But those supporters would never dare interrupt someone like a Rodgers, Brees, or a Brady I believe. So you guys are stuck in this strange situation where your previous coach burned a very high draft pick on someone who right now, at best, is a hit away from even getting to see the field on a regular basis.
The rest of your team is decent, aside for your DB’s, but that is expected with your possible HOFer out. I liked how they played as hard as they could until the end and the Miller/Dumerville combo will be great very soon.
Oh, and BTW, please don’t report me for coming onto your sight. Those whiny bears fans did and I was just saying my piece about your team. I’m not trying to be disrespectful.
by Nels Winkler on Oct 4, 2011 11:53 AM MDT reply actions 5 recs
Denver fans want a QB that we can get behind. A QB that will deliver in the clutch and win. Orton isn’t the guy. Tebow played well enough last year and lead 2 come from behind games (one won one lost) so he shows potential. Orton is done so on to the next guy which is Tebow. If he fails, then on to the next guy.
The Tebow fans wouldn’t be happy in your scenario. The rest of us would be fine.
I'm as big a Tebow fan as there is
and if the Broncos had say…Peyton Manning (the healthy one, not this year’s version), I would be perfectly fine with Tebow sitting on the bench right now.
I don’t for a minute think that Tebow is as polished a passer right now as he can one day become, and I think that sitting behind a proven veteran who can help him develop would be an excellent situation for him.
The problem is that Kyle Orton isn’t a better quarterback than Tebow, and at this point there isn’t much that Tebow could learn from Orton. At best I would say that Orton would be able to help Tebow with his throwing mechanics (but that isn’t what a backup learns from a starter, so it’s not an issue), or perhaps learning to be more patient with his progressions (if there’s one thing Orton can do it’s throw a check down). I think though, that Tebow’s issues with taking off so early this preseason was much more a product of the fact that Denver’s backup O-line couldn’t block their own shadows than him not being able to make more than one read.
If there isn’t a better player for the young guy to learn from on the roster, put him on the field and let him learn from experience. Who knows, maybe he’ll even be able to pick up a win or two along the way (which is pretty much the best we can expect from an Orton led team the rest of the way).
We never had a Favre in front of Rodgers situation.....Matt Flynn is twice the QB of Orton so we have an arrogant,, conervative dumb ass of a coach that is starting a medicore back up QB....so pointless even thinking about that.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
It was a really strange pick IMO
McDaniels spent all of 09 claiming how much confidence he had in Orton, after a weird trade that brought him here in the first place. Then uses a high pick for Tebow. If we still had Cutler, I don’t think Tebow gets drafted. Not saying Cutler is elite, but I think people figured he was here as the starter for a while, even with his flaws. So to answer your question, no, with an elite quarterback I don’t think anyone is pining for Tebow.
Now to flag your post and report you to the moderators…
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 4, 2011 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Basically if I had to sum it up I would say we went from having what appeared to be a long-term solution with Cutler to having a stop-gap with no apparent solution behind or after the stop-gap.
i keep dancing on my own.
that is just it. Orton was a stop gap, unfortunaly he has turned into one of the leaks. What is the point of playing a stop gap when we have a QB that looked pretty good playing last year.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions
Cutler is about as elite as Browning Nagle
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:46 PM MDT up reply actions
Denver needs a leader(Tebow)
not a follower(Orton)!
by MileHighPride on Oct 4, 2011 12:00 PM MDT up reply actions
Thanks for stopping by Nels
We don’t mind visitors at all as long as they don’t troll.
The whole Tebow thing is just an awful mess and it has been since he was drafted. As frightened pointed out, the pick was just odd in the first place. Now we have this charismatic guy that wants to play QB, but has shown he is not capable of some parts of the job. He’s not a shoe-in, but we have Orton who honestly is just mediocre. So yeah, even I (one of Tebow’s biggest critics) want to see him starting.
It is a shame to have this big clusterfunk in our organization. Because now you have people calling Fox a moron, questioning if we are doing anything right, etc. All over a mamby-pamby QB controversy where neither QB is in any way, shape, or form a proven star NFL QB prospect. We have some seriously cool things happening in our team (D is great against the run, fantastic pass-rush, a renewed running offense, a maturing O-line), but no one focuses on that because heaven forbid we have to spend one more minute with Tim “I’m believing I’m a QB” Tebow riding the pine…because he wasn’t good enough to unseat Orton. I could go on and on bro. :)
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
I guess Bears fans are just whiny...
That is why Cutler fits in so well.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:14 PM MDT up reply actions
I was most excited that Von Miller was the best defensive front seven player on the field Sunday. Probably the best defender period.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Packers fans
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Bears fans, I’ve been blocked from WCG because I said Jay Cutler would suck. Guess who was right?
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 1:49 PM MDT up reply actions
^ This guy
LOL…I didn’t get blocked by them, but man those guys we way deep into the kool-aid when that trade went down. LOL
I hope they make it to the playoffs again this year so cry-baby can choke again…it was so fulfilling last year!
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Great article!
I’ve had this exact thought for a few days now. This current offense just isn’t tailored to Tebow. It was obvious last year when he started those last few games that they held back some plays and installed new stuff for him on the other games.
I’m not saying they are going to keep Tebow for next year. But I think the way you read these comments is spot on. They just don’t have the offense tailored for him right now.
Then I severely doubt the coaching chops of McCoy and Fox as this offensive scheme sucks....its more boring and safer than last year...thats it.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
Couldn't agree more!
So far the offense this year has been beyond Blah! Down right unwatchable. That flea flicker on Sunday was the most exciting play I’ve seen all year out of the Offense! Which on it’s own is an exciting play, but seriously, that’s all we’ve really had.
I could care less...
what offense is in there Tim could run THAT offense. I just think that Fox is either lazy, to D minded Or unwilling to allow other plays to be developed at this point.
It isn’t that Tim can’t do it. it’s that he can do MORE than Fox can keep up with!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
I think we have a shot at being #1 in the draft this year. I really think we could be that bad. If that happens, I would be shocked if EFX doesn’t go QB. I hope we get a chance to see more Tebow before that happens. I guess if we do our chances of having the #1 pick go down and that is fine with me.
No matter how much we read between the lines, the QB talent in next years draft could decide the fate of Tebow whether Fox likes him or not.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
Aha....
Putting the two answer together for me, especially considering that Fox says in four-different answers that “Kyle Orton is our starting quarterback” is that Fox simply does not think Tebow can run the offense right now – be it because Tebow has not had the time to learn/practice it or that he feels Tebow simply can’t do it.
Yes. That’s essentially what they’ve been saying for quite some time right now. The problem is, nobody wants to accept it.
On the other hand, Fox could be…saying that Tebow shouldn’t play in 2011 because he simply didn’t have the time to learn the offense…Fox may think it better for Tebow to sit, watch, and learn…
To me, this too has seemed utterly obvious for quite some time as well. The problem is, nobody wants to accept it.
The grass is always greener on the other side when you haven't given it a chance to grow yet.
Well, I think Fox is a bloody idiot, so I really dont care what he thinks. What I do care about is the mess he is making out of my team.
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
Mess
that is what I think when watching the games. What a stinking mess of dog shit we are putting out on the field. Puke.
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Oct 4, 2011 12:31 PM MDT up reply actions
Fox Is a joke...
A washed up coach hanging on to a Super Bowl LOSS from a decade ago. His ideas of football are antiquated, and we the fans will suffer an extra 3-5 years because of his hiring..
by RC on Oct 4, 2011 12:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Dude...I thought you were taking a break?
LOL…you are awfully vocal for someone who isn’t supposed to be around for awhile. Are you in, or are you out bro? Cause if you are in, I need to tell you that you are acting the part of McGeorge circa 2009. Remember how we all hated his comments and how he was dragging down our blog?
…Just saying…
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Sure. So start Brady Quinn and see what the kid can do. Can’t be any worse than Orton and Kyle won’t be around much longer anyway.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
IMO we need to give Tebow or Quinn
A fair chance and move forward so we can focus on our defense!
by BroncosFaN88 on Oct 4, 2011 12:24 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
It comes down to this week...
If I see another Bubble Screen to a WR, I’m gonna cry. What a dumb risky play…
ahem… This week will be a defining week for the Denver Broncos. The fans at large are already against Orton playing, and now they are turning on Fox…like they did on McD…but sooner cause McD started out 6-0… So, you are likely to here many fans cheering Tebow again…despite what the locker room wants them to do. If they lose this week, especially to our other rivals at home, then the disgruntled noise is going to be turned up to a deafening pitch…and something will have to be done.
They could become heroes if they traded or cut Orton and went with Tebow, and just started simple…a base Tebow style Spread offense..and just build it one game at a time…With one game in three weeks during the bye…that would give Tebow and the Offense enough time to adjust. The fans won’t expect instant miracles with Tebow, and will give him a wider margin of error and learning time like the rookies starting with other teams plus they will be happy that football is exciting again with a proven LEADER at the helm.
If we win, then it’s back to the drawing board with Orton gives us the best chance to win crapola…until the next loss…and the fans will end up loathing Fox as a coach and he will be labeled a villain and he may not last the season. Who steps up when Bowlin has to fire him? Maybe Dennis Allen gets a huge break…it would be nice to have a head coach who understands attack defenses and modern offenses…
Either way, I’m tuning in to this game to see Von Miller sack Phyliss 3 times to expand his Fibonacci sequence of sacks ..he’s had 1…1….2…? Hopefully we see Rivers thrown to the turf hard 3 times! It will also be fun to watch how things pan out with the fans and them over Orton….
by Brazenwood on Oct 4, 2011 12:58 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Tebow can do some things at quarterback, if that’s what you want your quarterback to do.
Like win? Cause that’s something Kyle Orton isn’t showing us right now
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
by Calikula on Oct 4, 2011 1:04 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Quarterbacks don’t win. Teams win.
Stop using team won/loss record to evaluate an NFL QB. Won/loss record isn’t a good indicator of an MLB pitcher’s performance, and they have far more impact on the game.
Ok how about a QB that doesnt lead the NFL in turnovers?
that puts his team in bad situations constantly? His turnovers have been directly responsible for 2 losses thus far
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Rome was not built in a day
Hi MHR,
Being a die hard Bronco fan I have really enjoyed this blog. However I cant help but feel the balance is being lost or at least undermined by some of our fan base lately and it is starting to seep into every thing. I realize the last decade has been a roller coaster from hell, with more downs then ups. However already calling for EFX’s head is more than a bit premature. Its been 4 games , 4 , not 16, not 32…… 4. With no off season and a talent depleted roster that will take multiple seasons to bring back to respectability, we had absolutely no chance being a playoff or even division contender this year. Im not going to sit here and pretend that I didn’t spend the pre season getting a little tipsy of one to many shots of orange kool aid, watching Von Doom in action for the first time sure did bring back some memories of better days. The hangover (aka The season opener) was brutal to say the least. Im not ready to jump off a cliff though. Our team has been falling apart long before Mcd, he just made things worse. No one in their right mind expected Fox to come in like Jesus, walk on water and fix everything in his first season. This is a long term project. The last thing we needed was another hot shot coordinator to come in guns blazing. People forget that when Shanahan led us to the promised land, he did it with a stable foundation that was put in place by a prior regime. He didn’t come in with a bulldozer and some explosives trying to to reinvent the wheel. Mcd nuked this teams infrastructure. Its going to take years to rebuild. That being said I understand the impatience that comes from watching Kyle “no thrills” Ortin out there when we have one of the most polarizing quarterbacks to have ever played the game sitting on the sidelines. We’re all chomping at the bit to be back at the top but its going to take some patience. The worst thing we could do is prematurely bench the Qb that the looker room believes in and won the job by out performing every other competitor available to us. If we do make a move before the season is truly lost we are signaling to our few remaining elite vetrans, and the rest of the team for that matter, that we dont believe in them and we have no chance of being competitive. The only thing worse than a talent depleted team is a talent depleted team with a fractured locker room. Fox knows he wont win the trust of the fan base until we are once again on our way to being an elite squad. He also knows that we will never get there if he is seen as a coach who dose not back his players and allows the locker room to rot from the inside out. He is well aware of Ortins record as a bronco, he is also well aware of every other player on our squads record as a bronco. Tebow will play. Tebow will play this year. Then Tebow will get an entire off season to shore up his short comings and improve his game. For now Ortin is the starter, he earned it. We may not like it but it is going to take more than barely loosing some nail biters and getting blown out in one game by the best team in the NFL. Ortin will eventually be benched, but he is not the broncos only problem, we need more work than just a new sail and pretty paint job. A complete make over is needed and that takes time. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
by KarlMecklenburg77 on Oct 4, 2011 1:08 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
It’s not good enough for Orton to be the best practice or preseason QB. That does nothing for the franchise. Orton needs to be the best QB on the roster on game days. He hasn’t been in 2011 or much of 2010 for that matter. He’s been somewhere between bad and awful for most of his last 10 starts.
The locker room will move on the second the coaches do because Orton doesn’t give Denver any more than a 20% chance to win. They don’t love Kyle. They certainly don’t play hard for him. They just do what protects their roster spot and game checks. I’d gladly get on board the Tebow or Quinn train if Fox told them to. They’d forget the name Orton in a new york minute.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
No I don't think veterans love Orton
except Brandon Lloyd, but that’s for selfish things. As good as Lloyd has been, the team isn’t doing any better because of him
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 1:52 PM MDT up reply actions
you are one hundred percent correct there Brad
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
I was debating the quarterback controversy with my Grandfather a couple days ago (my family has had season tickets since the 60’s) and I was actually trying to convince him that Tebow should start sooner than later so don’t get me wrong I dont think Ortin is taking us anywhere. Anyways, my Grandfather had a good point that was hard for me to get around. Don’t you think the HO knows a thing or two about quarterbacking?
So I dont know one way or another, the post was mainly to point out he’s not our only issue and its way to early to be questioning whether or not Fox was a good decision for rebuilding this team. Tebow will get his chance.
by KarlMecklenburg77 on Oct 4, 2011 2:02 PM MDT up reply actions
As I have said before
My son is a Panthers fan…..he can fill you in on the history of football under Fox in Carolina
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Gte him to write a post man...would be good information!
FIRE JOHN FOX!
Kyle Orton and John Fox- Definitive proof you dont need a red nose and big floppy feet to be an absolute clown!
In this situation
I think the HC thinks he knows a lot more about quarterbacking than he actually does. He is a defensive guy who believes in a run heavy, field position offense.
The problem is that with the way the game has evolved, those types of offenses just don’t work in the NFL anymore unless you have an elite defense (and even then I think the offense wins more often than not).
The biggest issue right now is that Fox has been dishonest with the fans (and after the talk about transparency from the front office, that sticks in the craw just a little bit more), and seems to be stuck in the 1980’s or 90’s.
This franchise was burned hard by McDaniels, and right now it looks like Fox isn’t doing much better with the way he’s handling things.
A roller coaster from hell?
Lions fans (until now) have had it worse, Browns fans, Bills fans don’t know what to think right now, those are some good guys right there! Anyway, I’ll ride the lightning like Metallica and I’ll descend from the morass with a gorgeous Broncos cheerleader as we’re riding Thunder around the field after another Broncos touchdown! It won’t be bad forever
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Oct 4, 2011 1:51 PM MDT up reply actions
Dont forget Raiders fans too
that franchise was horrible for the better part of a decade after their last SB appearance
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Ok, maybe just the last 6 years. Either way I am a die hard. Im just worried that our fan base is slipping to that of a team like…. dare i say it… the Raiders. Unrealistic expectation coupled with a lack of football knowledge. Not that this has happened yet, it just has felt that way from time to time this season.
We will dominate again! Just not this season.
by KarlMecklenburg77 on Oct 4, 2011 2:07 PM MDT up reply actions
All I know...
is that it doesn’t matter who drafted Tebow, who believes in him or who doesn’t. All that matters is that in the Broncos current situation you have to give a great college player, a great leader and a guy you spent a 2,3 and 4 round pick in a draft a chance to prove himself and see if the team can succeed with him playing QB. Go Broncos!!
So here is a serious question
If someone is calling for Orton to be benched, do you automatically assume they are a Tebow fan?
Get well soon Juan.
Thats some deep sh**
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Poke fun all you want.
But I need to understand if its a stereotype.
There are the Tebow lovers, and there are people that want to throw their remotes at the screen every time kyle stands behind the OLine working their asses off for him to throw another ball away. I guarantee the majority of folks are in column B at this point.
Get well soon Juan.
Sorry didnt mean to come off like a smart ass
You do indeed make a good point, just because someone calls for Orton to be benched/cut/traded doesnt automatically make them a Tebow fan. It makes them see that Orton isn’t getting it done and he’s in the bottom 5 rankings for QBs
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
because in three games
last year we saw a dead team come alive under Tebow and fall back to sleep this year under Orton.
Tebow doesn’t seem to get intimidated and right now we need that. I can’t guarantee his long term success but i can tell you about Orton’s
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
Oh dont get me wrong Im a fan of Tebow also
but the point he was making is that we need a change at QB. Im slipping into broken record mode, but I dont care if its Quinn even. Orton is playing at the same level as Quinn was in Cleveland right now. Maybe Quinn will get the spark he needs and becomes great with us. Who knows? What we do know is that Orton isn’t the guy and he has regressed horribly this season, because he cant even protect the ball anymore, which used to be his hallmark
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
I'm a fan of what he brings.
Mainly his attitude of how he’d do anything to win. I don’t feel like Denver has had that in a quarterback for some time. And at this point watching Orton is just sort of boring, so let’s toss Tebow out there, see what happens.
Oddly enough, I was only able to really watch one of his games last year that he started, and it was the comeback win against the Texans (and I was there). So really I only have warm fuzzies.
Filling up your senses like a night in the forest since 1992.
by frightened inmate #2 on Oct 4, 2011 2:12 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Not automatic
But the moment someone trots out one of these fallacies:
1) W/L record
2) Orton is boring
3) Tebow’s NCAA work will automatically translate over to the NFL
Then I just start figuring that they managed to miss the NFL post Marino/Montana.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Oct 4, 2011 7:39 PM MDT up reply actions
FWIW, #2 isn’t that invalid. he IS boring. I had a really hard time adjusting from Cutler to Orton… Cutler’s not really much better than Orton (Cutler sucks honestly), but he’s far more exciting than Orton.
So I don’t think it’s totally invalid to go “well if we’re gonna suck, might as well be fun to watch right?”… I get your point though.
2010 Redux
Maurkice Pouncey instead of Thomas and Tebow.
Or Pouncey in round 1 and Tebow early in round 2.
Kyle Orton makes $8.8MM in 2011 to lead the league in INTs on a 1-3 team with the 22nd ranked scoring offense, 24th in yards per game? In his contract year! Staying such a course isn't rebuilding, it's just lunacy.
Ah the genius of McD...
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Dez instead of Demaryius and keep all the picks we had that we traded to get Tebow
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Oct 4, 2011 1:53 PM MDT up reply actions
Woulda loved that also
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
All Tebow's drafting did was save us from 3 more McD busts....
by Tim Lynch on Oct 4, 2011 2:44 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
now see, that's the positive spin we need around here!
by oxmouth on Oct 4, 2011 5:16 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
LOL
I gotta rec that Ox
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow @MHR_KaptainKirk
KaptainKirk on FaceBook
The glass half full in me...
makes me consider this is a “new” team, new coach, new “system”, riddled with injuries and no off season work to put it all together. Add to it the quarterback play is not exactly what I would like to see, but it is what it is. I light of this I think it is time I backed off a bit and give things time to gel. We know that the quarterback is what he is. I don’t think that Tebow’s best chance to shine is right now. I do think the team is improving defensively and there are some solid building blocks. I am frustrated by what I see on Sundays especially on offense but I am also excited by what some of the younger guys bring to the table. I would like to see Tim be successful but I am not sure this is the right environment for it to happen. Lets see how much improvement happens in the next several weeks.
I dunno
I honestly think Fox is so inscrutable it’s not really worth scrutinzing his words. I can’t really get to Bena’s interpretation from this press conference or from anything Fox has said before.
Really the only new elements I’ve found is that Fox is resting his defense on training camp performance, and that he mentions Tebow has elements in his game that the other quarterbacks don’t. That’s all I’ve found.
I could just as easily theorize that they’re trying to build a whole new offense for Tebow in the background, and that offense is not ready yet aside from portions of a Tebow package appearing in Orton’s starts, and so that’s why Tebow hasn’t replaced Orton yet. It would also explain his “two offenses” comment, maybe they’re not giving emphasizing Orton’s offense in Tebow’s reps.
We're a 4-12 team !!!!!!!!!
Never in my life have I ever heard a coach refer to last seasons record as justifications for this years performance . EVER !!!!! Coach officially lost me at that one moment . Then he shrugged and and said “1-3 that”s about right" . I thought that his news conference was pompous and giving with the impression that nothing the fan’s or the media was important or even deserved consideration . Why doesn’t someone with this organization get some balls and speak to the fans , honestly and openly . About Tebow ,about why we hired an Old School coach with a 2-14 record . Despite the drubbing we took this week . I thought that there were many bright spots , Coach Fox certainly wasn’t one of them , I could not believe his apathy !!!!!
I really hope it is option 2
I pray with every ounce of my body and soul that if there is one single thing that Fox knows, or is thinking anyway, it is that playing Tebow this year, or this soon this year, is setting him up for failure, and that 2012 is the year of the Tebow. Build the rest of the team and start Tebow next year. Or, maybe Elway should seek out an independent OC and tell Fox to stay on the defensive side of the ball. Lets start Quinn now, I need a different name to curse, I’m getting tired of trying to cast voodoo on Orton.
Drinkin the kool-aid, smokin the Orange Kush
I don't have much to add to what has already been said
All I can say is…it’s time. My mind has changed.
It’s time for a change.
Bench Orton. Start Tebow.
POP POP!!!
by Tollyvolley127 on Oct 4, 2011 3:34 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
How long of a period do give for evaluation?
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
I say from the moment Orton gets benches, he has the rest of the season
However, if there is a change, I would not doubt that Fox would evenly distribute the remaining games between Tebow and Quinn if Tebow cannot win.
POP POP!!!
by Tollyvolley127 on Oct 4, 2011 4:17 PM MDT via iPhone app up reply actions
So if he does OK and not stellar then what.
You can be dumb... that's ok! There are many dumb people.
You can be an a$$hole... that's ok! There are many of these as well.
Unfortunately you cannot be both...
Ok... prove me wrong.
well then we see what the FO does in the offseason with McCoy.
I do not believe that this is the offense that will be run forever, and that McCoy is pretty much a stand in until Elway and company get the OC they want. Depending on who that is, then we will see who stays. I’m not sold on Tebow or Quinn. I’ve just hit where other people are and am done with Orton.
POP POP!!!
by Tollyvolley127 on Oct 4, 2011 6:03 PM MDT up reply actions
Im at the point where it doesn't even have to be Tebow
Brady Quinn can somehow luck his way to a better record at the pace Orton is at. At least he has some mobility
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
You play Orton right now for three reasons.
1) You’re paying him on the last year of his contract.
2) Tebow needs time to learn the new system.
3) Playing Tebow early won’t get you to the promised land, and realistically might get him seriously hurt without improvements to that O-line. (See Vick, Michael.)
Play Orton until he drops. You’re probably not bringing him back next year anyways. Let him take the pounding and let the coaches implement a system with a full offseason, another draft, and another free agency period to get Tebow the help he needs and the extra practice time he needs.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
Fantastic Point!
Great concept! Use him up and spit him out! lol
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
I like Kyle Orton
He never got a fair shake in Chicago, which was probably just as well, as bad as THAT O-Line is.
He will never get a Pro Bowl nod, but he’s got more talent than a Trent Dilfer, which is the classic ‘game manager’ profile.
The hate directed at him from Tebow fans from the day Tebow was drafted was both uncalled for and way over the top, and has never stopped. I’m sure Tebow’s a nice guy when he’s not hating on liberals, but Lord save me from his fans like this one.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Oct 4, 2011 5:10 PM MDT up reply actions
LOL
Thats good! There will always be the ones who are beyond help…;-)
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
Football Jesus...
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Orton Was The By-Product Of McDaniels' First BronControversy
To blame Tebow fans for “hate” against Orton is both unfair and untrue. Many Broncos fans were unhappy with losing a franchise QB in Jay Cutler for a mediocre journeyman like Kyle Orton. By the time McDaniels and Bowlen thought to draft Tebow, Kyle had already shown that, for all the gaudy statistics, he could not deliver the game day Wins.
Orton has been given more than a fair opportunity to succeed both in Chicago and Denver. The Bears were desperate to relieve themselves of the tragedy that is Rex Grossman, but Orton couldn’t win that competition, until the Bears ended it by releasing Rex.
The Broncos have allowed Orton three seasons and two schemes to find success, but he just can’t seem to take his game to the next level. It really is what it is and saying it’s going to get better is akin to admiring the Emperor’s New Clothes.
I think your ending sentences (and the image link) really show where the Tebow haters fuel the fires that burn within them : his religious and political beliefs. From Day 1, Tebow has been hated with a passion by some people, not because of his abilities, but because of his personal beliefs which apparently those people find threatening.
Frankly, I could care less about Tebow’s belief, or those of his Haters. I do, however, care about giving Tebow the opportunity both he and we deserve to “Sink or Swim” in this league. The only way that will happen is if he is allowed to start (at the QB position). Right now all we fans are getting is ambiguity, while Tebow is subjected to unbridled criticism of abilities he isn’t being allowed to display.
We'll get along better if you just admit I'm right
by MoB.DeadMeat on Oct 4, 2011 8:12 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I couldn't agree more
Great post
I would hope you would support who we are. Not, who we are not. Coach Norman Dale "Hoosiers"
They drafted Tebow solely to sell tickets.
As I’ve mentioned before, in a draft where Colt McCoy was drafted in the third round, there was no reason to trade up into the first round to draft Tebow, who was regarded by all the NFL executives who would talk as at best a project and more likely Matt Jones 2.0.
No one on the other side of the debate likes to admit that Kyle Orton is a competent NFL quarterback. Since he joined the Broncos, he’s posted better numbers year over year with a worse offense than Cutler had in his time here. He completes over 60% of his passes, and has a TD/INT ratio of nearly 2:1 since he joined Denver. Those numbers (and their increase over his time in Chicago) are not arguable.
Bottom line, he’s a decent QB on a bad team. Cutler also was a good QB on a bad team, and he was run out of town on a rail, and all I’d have to do to prove that is thread dive into Windy City Gridiron to see what the ‘Broncos fans’ thought of that deal when it was done.
Lastly – if religion and political beliefs were a reason to hate players, there’s zero possibility that I’d be watching any professional sports period, but especially the NFL. That’s a weak excuse used to justify wanting to get a guy who isn’t ready for the NFL on the field.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Oct 5, 2011 5:11 AM MDT up reply actions
I disagree on this point
They drafted Tebow solely to sell tickets.
Josh McDaniels fell in love with him and had the keys to the Candy store. The Jaguars could have drafted him to do that, but they didn’t. Also, there is still a waiting list for season tickets that is over 20,000 strong. Those people were on that list long before Tebow was drafted.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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Ok, given the season ticket thing, I'll concede that.
Point still remains that he gambled and so far lost, and to compound the error, he traded up to draft Tebow when no one else was coveting Tebow as a first round pick. In essence, he was bidding against himself, which is always disastrous.
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Oct 5, 2011 10:11 AM MDT up reply actions
You are right
I have no doubt about that.
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
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I am SICK of competent!
I want a QB that is EXCEPTIONAL, EXCITING and one who has those kinds of physical abilities. Screw competent!
It is better to keep silent, and appear to be wise, then to ramble on and remove all doubt! The Wisest Man, Solomon.
Brady is competent - you wouldn't want him?
Brady doesn’t have a big arm. He doesn’t scramble. All he does is make the right read and put the ball on target. That’s the reason almost half of his passing yards this year have come after the catch. (690 out of 1553, to be exact.) Orton actually has a lower ratio of YAC, believe it or not. (397 out of 945).
[...]when Giants coach Steve Owen, a certified defensive genius, was asked how he planned to stop Nagurski, he said: "With a shotgun, as he’s leaving the dressing room."
by NobodySpecial on Oct 5, 2011 10:08 AM MDT up reply actions
Eh
Brady has a pretty darn strong arm. He’s certainly not the strongest, but his arm is certainly above-average. He’s also remarkably exciting to watch because he’s terrifyingly good.
Point being – you can be exciting and not scramble. Peyton Manning is just as good an example.
DONT BET THE FARM ON TEBOW!!!
People like Skip Bayless are hedging their professional careers…
Orton had played long enough to prove he’s a solid backup at best,
and while its sad and ugly seeing the hate he’s had to endure,
he’s had his part in this also. If he was performing, then its at least
far less of an issue.
But this is a passing football league.
Tebow is a glorified fullback.
He will never be gifted like Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Rivers.
all of this hypola is going to backfire for those going out on a limb.
I definitely agree its time to play him now.
Broncos need to draft from possibly the best QB draft class since ’83.
Time to make it painfully obvious that we cant afford not to take
a QB in the draft. Orton will be better off as a backup somewhere,
and probably will get a 2nd chance along the way.
QB
IMO a couple things seem pretty clear from words and deeds to date:
-Orton starts the rest of the season and is gone next year
-Tebow does not see significant time at QB this season
-If a good QB prospect is available in the draft (looking like top 10 at this point) he will taken
by Diamond Mountain on Oct 4, 2011 6:01 PM MDT reply actions
Give the kid a chance!
As a Broncos fan, I was disappointed that Elway’s efforts to ship Orton out of town in the off-season failed. Frankly, the Broncos were asking a stupid price for him (2nd round for a guy that was drafted in the 4th). Additionally, none of the interested teams wanted to take on the honeypot contract that McDaniels’ gave Orton.
As for Tebow being a “leftover” from the previous coaching regime, let’s not forget that Orton is the unwanted offspring of McDaniels’ first Denver controversy : sending Cutler to the Bears. For the past 3 seasons, Orton has been exactly what Chicago already knew him to be : a competent, but mediocre talent. For that, we can hardly blame him. We just need to realize it’s never going to get any better and start planning for the future.
Orton is the “best option” for winning? I guess that argument would have merit if we were consistently winning, but we aren’t. Honestly, If the Broncos are going to lose, I would rather have them lose with Tebow.
All the critical baloney aside, Tim Tebow just makes the game more exciting and involved for this Broncomaniac. Unlike Orton, Tebow doesn’t like losing and it shows. Just as we saw at the end of last season, Tebow is going to give 110% and expect the same commitment from his co-stars. It’s that trait which I think Tebow shares with the Elway of the past.
If Elway and Fox refuse to give Tebow a shot at some point this season, they can kiss this fan’s merchandise and sales money goodbye for the foreseeable future. It’s really the only leverage a fan has to express disappointment in their team’s management.
As for Tebow being the Broncos’ future, meh, maybe he is and maybe he isn’t. However, in either case, both Tim Tebow and We the Fans deserve to find that out on the Field and not from behind closed doors, or a press podium.
We'll get along better if you just admit I'm right
by MoB.DeadMeat on Oct 4, 2011 7:33 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Empty seats? What a joke.
Waiting list shows 32000 with a 7-10 year wait. Amusing to think fans are going to throw those tickets in the trash because our FO refuses to play Tebow. And those of you think “everyone agrees” that Tebow should start is also sadly mistaken.
The truth is he a project that would require a team to write an offense around him, as Mr Fox is trying to say. And what happens when he gets hurt? He got injured his first exhibition game, if you remember last season at all. Then you re-write your gameplan again?
I will never boo a member of my own team.
I will never assume to know more about players than our coaching staff.
And when Tebow is gone, I will still be a Broncos fan.
"What a joke." - azdenfan
So, you’re saying you’re okay with a “7-10” team? As for your assertion that Tebow “…would require a team to write an offense around him….”, even if that were true, it wouldn’t be a big issue.
The NFL is all about scheme and you’re going to approach that from either a Player’s Abilities (i.e., a Manning, Elway, Barry Sanders), or a Coach’s Book. Either way you’re going to find personnel that compliment that scheme, but that doesn’t mean they can’t play a different scheme should the need arise. A number of the Broncos players are veterans of very different schemes from around the league. Several of them have seen 3 distinct systems implemented right here in the past few years. Adapting a scheme, or team for a particular talent is more about optimization than specialization.
During John Elway’s early career we saw what happens when a Player’s Abilities are seconded to a particular Coach’s Book, with the legendary conflict between he and Dan Reeves. We’ve also seen what can happen when a Coach’s book is adapted to account for a Player’s Abilities, when Mike Shannahan modified his Book to fit Elway’s abilities.
The supporting cast on the Reeves (Phillips) and Shannahan teams were not radically different in terms of talent , or personnel ; Elway was able to utilize both supporting casts with aplomb. However, the team only found success when Elway’s unique abilities were included in the scheme employed by the head coach.
Fox and, ironically, Elway are at that Crossroads with Tebow. How they handle this situation will determine the fates of both the team and Tebow.
We'll get along better if you just admit I'm right
7-10 meant wait list for season tickets, not team record
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
haaha that was funny……fail
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
by waterboy31321 on Oct 5, 2011 6:37 AM MDT up reply actions
They dont have to write a new one,
they can just use the one from last year that worked so well. He puts more points up on the board than orton.
Now just imagine they actually did craft an offense geared towards him! He might be putting up 30 a game.
Or not, this ten needs to see what it has in orton, not enough data yet (yes, sarcasm).
by TheMascotArmy on Oct 5, 2011 6:46 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Denver Broncos Quarterback situation
Let’s see the Bronco’s are 1-3 going into a game with the Chargers. Very important game as all of the games are. I have been a Bronco fan for over 20 years now. I have endured the ups and downs, the high’s and low’s. Now is the time for change. The quarterback isn’t solely to blame for any loss the team has, but with that said the team needs to dig deeper then they ever had and stop this downward spiral. For instance through whatever magic the Detroit Lions are 4-0. When have we ever seen that before. They have changed something that works. For the love of God give the other three quarterbacks a chance. If they fail then hey they failed, but to continue with Orton and possibly go to another loss is unbearable. WR, TE, Defensive/offensive line. Protect thy quarterback. Just like in the movie “Necessary Roughness”. No one will get near the quarterback. Receivers catch the ball. It is easy to be an arm chair quarterback, but when your hopes and prayers are on every single game. Please try harder guys, we need your wins to vindicate that the Bronco’s are a team to deal with this season. So endth the sermon. Go Bronco’s – Orange Crush resurrected.
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