Hello Again and Then Some Apples to Apples
by Rodney A on Nov 12, 2011 5:46 PM MST
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First off, Hello Again! I'm going to open with a past game, tell you why, and then we'll move on to what I consider to be the best comparison we should be making when it comes to The Tebow. I gotta hit the shower and head out to watch the UFC match tonight, so sorry in advance if there are extra typos and whatnot...
Four fumbles, two of them lost, one of which was in the redzone(ish). One interception. One blocked kick. One missed field goal for us, and one record tying FG for the them. Nearly a hundred yards in penalties and a partridge in a pear tree. That was the Raiders game in week-one. It pissed me off. If the Raiders truly were the better team, they’d have won that comedy of errors by 33 instead of just 3. I was pretty loud in my belief that we were the better team prior to the game and pretty much guaranteed a victory. I even lost a bet to a Raiders fan where I had to put up Darren McFadden as my profile pic for a week. Yeah, yuck. Anyway, I did and then wrote one comment with that profile pic, on their board, to show proof. I had to leave it up for a week, so the plan was then to not write again for a week so that I didn’t have to make MHR suffer for my bet by making them see McFadden’s ugly mug every time I chimed in. That, and I was still pissed and maybe needed the break anyway.
Between that and getting immensely busy and not working much out of the office over the last month, I haven’t had much time to comment or post.I checked in here and there, mostly mobile, but that ugly pic was still up so I never took the time to comment even when I had time to read. So there's that story. Hopefully I'll have more time lately. I certainly want to assure everyone of one thing, though, I wasn't out because we were losing.
Anyway, so I was thinking today about how many comparisons there are relating to Tebow. Some have to do with his first six starts versus the six starts of others (like elway and Manning). Some relate more to rookies and how his performance relates to that of other rookies in this league. I don’t have a problem with any of the comparisons, but my own personal favorite that I never really hear anything about is that of Michael Vick. That’s about as apples to apples and you can get if you ask me. Scrambler to scrambler.
Now about Vick, I realize even the name still makes a lot of people sick. I'm neither he to say he sucks or to say he's great. I'm not here to say you should forgive or that you shouldn't. I'm merely saying he played football in this league and that his play on the field is comparable to Tebow. He's a scrambler. Tebow's a scrambler. Comparing Tebow to Manning just because they started slow (or whomever) seems to me like a good comeback in a bar debate, but in reality, we all know Tebow will never be anything like Manning. They're completely different and they always will be. Same with John Elway and most of the other comparisons. They're great as a jab when someone is jabbing you, but in the overall scheme of things, it holds no water. Well, that's my opinion anyway.If I were on the other side of the argument, I'd just ask what your point is. Why are you comparing Tebow's first six starts to Manning's? Do you think Tebow is going to ever be a QB like Manning? No? Then what's your point? I can show you six starts from a really crappy QB that looked good and he never amounted to a hill of beans.
Whoops, got lost. Back to Vick. He’s turned into more of a true QB and a much better overall passer after prison. And obviously, I’m not going to use 2010 as an example due to that. For one, it simply wouldn’t be fair. For two, we don’t need to because Michael Vick was a Super Star with the Atlanta Falcons years ago. He was more of a scrambler at the time and he was younger and less experienced. That makes it more apples to apples, IMO.
So, here's the deal: Vick made the pro-bowl in three of his first five years in this league. During which time, he also took his team to the playoffs - winning one post-season game each of those years. So those three years, Vick’s best years while he was a Super Star with the Falcons - those will be the years we’ll use in this comparison. Vick started in 15 games each of those three seasons, and again, he went to the pro-bowl each of those seasons, the playoffs twice, and so the stats we'll be looking at are exactly what earned him a record-setting $130M contract. There are no tricks here, Vick was a Super Star based on these years.
As for Tim Tebow, there’s a small sample size no matter who we compare him with. That won’t change here. So, without further adieu, time to get chocolate wasted in the stats…
Michael Vick (45 Starts): Tim Tebow (6 starts):
1.00 - Passing TD per game 1.50 - Passing TD per game
0.37 - Rushing TD per game 0.50 - Rushing TD per game
0.73 - Interception per game 0.67 - Interception per game
0.40 - Fumbles lost per game 0.17 - Fumbles lost per game
170 - Passing YPG 185 - Passing YPG
51 - Rushing YPG 75.3 - Rushing YPG
55 - Completion % 48 .0 - Completion %
77.6 - Passer Rating 81.0* - Passer Rating
60% - Win % 50% - Win %
Now that wasn’t so bad, was it? So easy to understand, Capt Caveman could do it. For those that just don’t like to look at stats anywhere, let me just verbalize it. Tim Tebow throws for more Touch Downs, runs for more Touch Downs, passes for more yards, runs for more yards, throws less interceptions, loses less fumbles and has a better passer rating than Micahael Vick did during his three pro-bowl years with the Falcons.
Now granted, Vick has The Tebow beat in the win/loss record at this point, and also has a better completion percentage, though not by much. About the wins, it's worth noting that Tebow took over two teams in crisis - teams that had much, much worse win percentages than Tim's current 50%. Also, and this is important, we gave Vick credit for his win percenatage during his BEST YEARS. He went to the pro bowl each of those years and to the playoffs in two of the three. Of course he’s going to have a better win/loss record during those years.
Still, there are still some very real things that young Timmy needs to work on. His third-down percentage sucks. He’s still lacking confidence in the first-half of games, playing it too safe. And his accuracy and timing truly do need some major improvement
Now here's the point...
People will tell you and I until we want to slap ‘em in the face - they’ll say listen, you can’t be a scrambling QB in this league, and Tebow sucks. You have to be a pocket passer. You can’t throw for 175 yards per game and be a winner. You can’t be a contender with a guy like that. Well, I call bullshit. Michael Vick did it. And he did it without half of Tebow's moxie, without half of Tebow's durability. Tebow is determined to get better, whereas Vick never was.
I'm not saying Tebow can't win from the pocket. I know he'll get better there, and I know he will eventually win from there. I'm only saying he's already winning from outside the pocket... and he's doing it better than a guy that went to three pro-bowls doing the same damn thing. One of them was a Super Star, the stud of the league. The other is Tebow, the league's punching bag. So what gives here?
Cheers!
This is a Fan-Created Comment on MileHighReport.com. The opinion here is not necessarily shared by the editorial staff of MHR
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I knew you'd hold it down -)!
Michael Vick's best three years in Atlanta: 45 Games. 45 Touchdowns. 33 Interceptions. 36 Fumbles. 170 Passing-YPG. A 77.6 Passer Rating. = Young Timmy already wins those stat comparisons. That was 3 pro-bowls, 2 playoff appearances and a brand new $130M contract for the Super Star, Vick. So far, it's nightly news beatings for Tebow.
Good to see you back man. Good article.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
I'll probably put it in a bag of dog doo when I drop it off... and light it on fire and put on their door step
So they get poo on their shoe IF they don’t give Tebow an overt pat on the back in the near future.
Michael Vick's best three years in Atlanta: 45 Games. 45 Touchdowns. 33 Interceptions. 36 Fumbles. 170 Passing-YPG. A 77.6 Passer Rating. = Young Timmy already wins those stat comparisons. That was 3 pro-bowls, 2 playoff appearances and a brand new $130M contract for the Super Star, Vick. So far, it's nightly news beatings for Tebow.
OK, after reading the entire post I agree to a point.
The problem I see is that EFX want a quarterback that can pass accurately from the pocket and be a gamer all wrapped in one…Tebow imo can be both of those guys with more reps. We have seen subtle improvement from week to week and the The Tebow Experiment lives on after threatening messages given out at the pressers…IMHO I think Tebow will be our quarterback of the future with a few championships. It will take time to ome to fruit though…
I agree with you on what they want
And I want it, too.
I’m only saying Tebow is already better than Vick was when he won pro-bowls and was a Super Star in Atlanta. It has nothing to do with whether or not Tebow needs to improve in the pocket, it’s just that he’s already proven that he’s better than Vick was when Vick showed you don’t have to be a “pocket passer”
Go Timmy, Go!!
I hear ya on Vick vs Tebow and that goes for a lot of others as well,
but since Tebow is the prior regimes pick its hard to tell if they (EFX) is willing to take the time it will take to develop him into a winner? I know they are surrounding him in a offense he is comfortable with, but how long will they let him not be exactly how they want him to be? Myself, I would let Tebow finish the season regardless of his performance, unless of course he falls flat on his face, because it has been a learning curve for the whole offense not just Tim…
I think Tebow has already bought himself a few more games
I’m not convinced that management has fully embraced him yet, but I do think Tim will eventually win them over. One thing I know they know is that Tim Tebow is popular with the fans in Denver. If they pull him for some BS reason, there would be mutiny. And they know it. So they won’t. The other thing is that while Elway may not be fully on the band waggon, John Fox has a single mission. Always. It’s to win. They’ll do their best to put Tebow in the best chance to succeed.
I guess when I think about it, I guess I don’t think Elway is at all sold on Tebow and wants to keep his options open. But again, I think Tebow will win him over.
Go Timmy, Go!!
Not a bad comparison
Much better than most. But remember it took Vick learning under Reid and McNabb to become the passer he is today. Had Vick not gone to Philly, he would likely be the same player he was in Atlanta, exciting, but not efficient.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
But efficient enough to go to the playoffs twice, earn a record-setting contract and get voted to three pro-bowls
That’s the point. Vick was praised and celebrated for the same style. Tebow is told it will never work even though it’s already worked for Vick, and even though Tebow is doing it better than Vick did it.
I agree that Vick is a new player in Philly. That’s why I kept all those comparisons out of it. I feel like his time in Atlanta is pretty apples to apples. Obviously, I’d give Tebow the easy edge in heart, 4th quarter and in leadership, too.
Go Timmy, Go!!
Vick was an exciting player, that is what got him to the Pro Bowls, not his numbers
And he was exciting, that’s for sure, and it’s a strong similarity to Tebow. But I doubt Vick would ever have really been a good QB, meaning been able to take control of his team, move efficiently and score a lot, if he had stayed in his old style. Also Vick is much smaller and much faster. They were both runners, they both had major passing issues, the issue may be that guys like Andy Reid don’t come along often.
I liked the post, a lot better than most since you kept context and related Tebow to a comparable QB. Thanks for the work you did.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Nov 12, 2011 10:27 PM MST up reply actions
Tell you strange thing: Darren McFadden is a great runner, even though he is a Raider
And 6 games is an awfully small sample size. But I believe Tebow will prove his doubters wrong and Broncos will see success with him
Yep, DMF is real MF, but I'd agree he's a pretty darn good MF lol
And I agree, 6 games is tough to compare stats, as they’ll never hold up over time.
Go Timmy, Go!!
eh
They’re too different to me to compare.
Physically and mentally, they’re just too different. Vick is fast and elusive, whereas Tebow seems to just find space to run and runs hard.
Vick is 5’11-6’0 215, Tebow is 6-3. 235.
Nothing against your opinion. I get what you’re sayin, I’m just of the opinion Tebow is too unique to compare. The only stat we should care about is wins and losses with him, cuz his numbers are simply strange. And this year, he’s 2-1. And I’ll take that.
Bleed(ing out) the Orange and Blue
Yeah I think everyone agrees there's no perfect comparison to make....
Vick is probably as good as anyone. Tebow isn’t as elusive, but he can run with power, and is also much more resilient and shouldn’t have the injury issues Vick has struggled with.
I would see Tebow developing into more of a Roethlisberger type player (minus the bathroom escapades). A big guy who isn’t necessarily a timing route QB, but is difficult to take down and will extend plays until somebody comes open. They also both seem to play big with the game on the line. I hate to compare him to a D-bag like bathroom ben, but that’s probably the closest in my opinion.
Go-Go Gadget Tebow!!!!
Roethlisberger
Looks like a lumbering bear when he runs. lol No grace at all. But I’m with you Roeth is a better comparison for the eye test. Especially at extending plays.
Plus he’s 6-5. So he looks awkward running.
Bleed(ing out) the Orange and Blue
by WhyBroncosWhy? on Nov 12, 2011 8:18 PM MST up reply actions
In size they're comparable and they're both tough to take down
But their play style (Ben and Tim) is far and away less comparable than with Vick and Tim. Not that you disagreed, though. Now that I see it again, it looks like you were agreeing with me and just throwing out another name lol oh well!
Go Timmy, Go!!
Yeah, I think right now Vick/Tebow might be a better comparison..
I really do see Timmy developing into a Roethlisberger type player (thankfully not a Roethlisberger type person). Ben isn’t polished, and he’s not a timing/route kind of guy. But in the 4th quarter he’ll extend plays and find someone in a soft spot in the defense for a big gain. Add to that Tebow’s running ability and I think he may turn into something really special.
Go-Go Gadget Tebow!!!!
And I'm saying they're too different,
Yes they both scramble.
But they even do that differently. Watch how Vick runs and watch how Tebow runs. Vick relies on speed, Tebow relies on his strength and momentum (at least that’s what I see). Vick looks to juke spin and run around people, Tebow fights for every ward.
It’s kind of like Taiwan Jones and Michael Bush running. They both run the ball. They run it differently. So I wouldn’t say it’s a fair comparison cuz they bring different things to the table.
I’m arguing that Tebow and Vick are opposites. Small Vs. Big, Fast Vs. Strong, the only thing they have in common is that in the stats column they both get rushes and many of their passes come from outside the pocket. I But I see them doing both differenty
Bleed(ing out) the Orange and Blue
by WhyBroncosWhy? on Nov 12, 2011 8:14 PM MST up reply actions
Who would you compare him to?
I’ve seen comparisons to dozens of QBs all over the FanPost section, and generally none of them scramble. That’s Tebow and Vick’s biggest strength. It’s what make them who they are.
When somebody tells you Tebow sucks and that no scrambling QB can make it in the NFL, that you have to be a pocket passer to be successful in this league, who do you point to as evidence to the opposite? Who better than Vick? Who is more comparable to Vick in this instance?
Vick is shorter, Tebow is taller. Vick is faster, TEbow is more powerful. Vick has black hair, Tebow’s is brown. Tebow doesn’t hang dogs for fun, Vick used to like to do just that. One’s been a prisoner, the other’s a model citizen. I think one of them has cheek dimples while the other doesn’t. Oh, and one’s black and one’s white. None of that matter at all in this post. None of that at all brushes on the point.
The point is: If not Vick, then who? Name a better comparison. Both Vick and Tebow win from outside the pocket (Tebow present tense, Vick past tense). Each of them run for a heckuva lot of yards. They of them have the defense constantly worried about scrambling out of the pocket. Each of them have really bad completion percentages and yet remain successful. Both of them throw for well less than 200 yards per game.
Yeah, one is taller. But the point stands.
Go Timmy, Go!!
I don't want to compare him to anyone
To me he’s more like Roeth more than he is Vick, because of the way they scramble.
But in all honesty I guess he’s his own thing. I think size is the one thing he has that Vick needs tho, so I’m glad Tebow has it. But he’s not THAT tall, and seems like at times he has trouble seeing over the linemen at times. He’s not as good at escaping as Roeth, especially at getting people off of him, so there is that.
He’s not a surgeon with pinpoint accuracy, so Rodgers is a bad comparison.
Overall he’s just Tebow. Could Vick run the zone read? Maybe for 2 plays before he breaks. Could Roeth? Nope not fast enough. So my answer is he’s Tebow. Incomparable. He does what he does which is make plays when it counts.
Bleed(ing out) the Orange and Blue
by WhyBroncosWhy? on Nov 12, 2011 9:17 PM MST up reply actions
I guess I was just saying my old saying; don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions
If you can’t think of a better comparison than Vick, then I’d say there is no problem. If you think the better comparison is Big Ben just because he’s big and tough to takcle, then we’d disagree. A defense will always play a guy like Tebow and Vick similarly. Defenses will never play Ben that way.
I do agree with Kgrone above: There is no perfect comparison. I just keep seeing what I consider to be some silly comparisons, so I thought I’d throw my own into the ring. I think Michael Vick’s Atlanta days are a great comparison to Tebow. I can think of no better comparison in showing how somewhat bad passing numbers can still be effective for a scrambingling QB at this level.
Go Timmy, Go!!
Understand what your sellin
I just ain’t buyin :)
not this time.
Early in his career Vick was seen as a runner, but I don’t remember seeing defenses put 9 in the box on him, cuz tey knew he could throw it a mile. 9 in the box is a Tebow thing. And only a Tebow thing.
You gotta admit tho, if gets his accuracy and reads down, look out.
Bleed(ing out) the Orange and Blue
by WhyBroncosWhy? on Nov 12, 2011 9:56 PM MST up reply actions
BIG WELCOME BACK!
Glad to have the opportunity to get your views again, Rodney A. It hasn’t been boring here, that’s for sure, but you usually bring a certain sense of decorum to the joint.
Man you ought to know better than to bet on this current team
And to do it with Raiders fans? Rough…but glad to see you back.
Unfortunately, that Raiders team now is more talented than ours, so we’ll have to endure another draft or two before we can safely brag about our weapons to our AFC West rivals. But what a sweet victory that was last Sunday huh? I hope it made up for your lost bet. I bet it led to Oakland being one ticked off team because they were in no mood to lose in SD on Thursday! I’m still smiling about watching Phyllis crying to the officials and yelling at his receivers.
Now onto KC and hopefully a respectable performance. Maybe even a come-from-behind win. Go Broncos! 5-11 ‘till we ain’t!
I am not interested in your exaggeration of reality. I am interested in reality itself.
Wow, I see a little more light at the end of the tunnel
I see a healthy team that’s starting to form an identity. There’s going to a lot more ups and downs, but I see a team improving every week. The biggest question is whether the Chiefs can draw up a plan to stop the zone-read. It was a surprise last week. That element of surprise is no longer here.
Also, I still see the Chiefs as an unstable team. I hope we get to see that side of them tomorrow.
Go Timmy, Go!!
I know I appear to be a major pessimist
but I am with good reason. Case in point: if McGahee is out with an injury, the running game diminishes and the zone-read plays become useless.
Let’s face it – the talent level on this team is marginal with razor-thin depth at key positions.
I am not interested in your exaggeration of reality. I am interested in reality itself.
We did ok with Willis and KM out
Have a little faith.
"we all know Tebow will never be anything like Manning."
No, you assume that Tebow will never be anything like Manning.
You can’t know what kind of passer Tim Tebow will develop into in the NFL. He was an excellent passer in the SEC just like Manning was. To say he has no ability to become a good or even great passer in the NFL is being extremely short sighted.
I would suggest that you go back and look at the three players’ stats while in college (yes, I know…not indicative of success in the NFL, but it does show what type of quarterback each was in college). I think you’ll find that Tebow played a style of quarterback that was more comparable to Peyton Manning than Micheal Vick while at Florida.
I love Tebow
but if you think he’s going to become a passer like Manning or Marino was, then you’re high as hell on bronco crack
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
by Calikula on Nov 13, 2011 12:56 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
mmm… bronco crack….
"Well, it's not like we signed him off the street..." — J. Fox
by oxmouth on Nov 13, 2011 12:58 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
whoa wait. that doesn’t sound good. renege.
"Well, it's not like we signed him off the street..." — J. Fox
Hahahaa.....cowbouys like Bronco crack.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Hey man I aint one to judge
(takes a hit) here you go man
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
You're taking it out of context
I only said he won’t be LIKE someone else. Point wasn’t that Manning will always be way better, but that they’ll never play alike. They’ll never have the same style of play.
Go Timmy, Go!!
Glad you're back, Rod..
And, as usual, great post. Well writen and makes a lot of sense.
Just let me wonder something here…. why this new tendency of trying to compare Tebow with somebody else? You compared him with Vick, and don’t get me wrong.. I think it’s maybe the better apple to do it, but besides you I’ve been seen a lot of dudes comparing him to Elway, Brady, Bradford and a lot of the possible QBs active or retired (including Doug Flutie, for example).
I really don’t think we should do it. Every single person in the world is unique. We all are. So, even people having some similarities with each other, they still remain unique. I don’t get why we Broncos are having this need to compare Tebow with A, B or C. He is just Tebow, and he just needs to be Tebow. He is unique as everybody on Earth.
If he will succeed or not, it’s another matter… for now, we just have to watch and grade him. To wait and have patience, so we can free a lot of pressure off Tebow’s shoulders. Maybe MSM is being such a pain in the ass for us all, and that’s why we need to compare him to other QBs and prove the MSM they are wrong. It’s a possible reason for this current tendency, but who knows what’s happening here with us. Anyway, if this pshycological reason that occurred me now is true, I really don’t think we need to prove anything to nobody. Just let the thinks to develop.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
One thing about Tebow with the option read,
He sort of is like Manning with the options he gets to choose. Some of these are presnap, some are reactionary. Do you remember all the postgame comments after the tying 2 pt conversion? Presnap Timmy changed the play, protection, and called his own number.
Rec'd.
This is an old-school MHR-type post, with actual facts and reasoned arguments. It’s great to have you back around. I tire of the endless Op-Eds we’ve had to endure around here since the departure of some key members and the addition of “the masses.” Thanks for your well-thought-out perspective!
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
Thanks for the compliments!
Go Timmy, Go!! The kid took over a 1-4 team, went 3-1 winning back-to-back road games against division rivals and now firmly holds the team one game off the lead. I don't care how you do it, just win baby, win!
But you get negative points for quoting Al Davis in reference to the Broncos. LOL.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
Well, in fairness
I think I stole it from the rapper Ice Cube. He’s the one that stole it from the Raiders cuz I’d never do that ;D
Go Timmy, Go!! The kid took over a 1-4 team, went 3-1 winning back-to-back road games against division rivals and now firmly holds the team one game off the lead. I don't care how you do it, just win baby, win!
hmmmm.... idk if second hand raider quotes are better or worse.
You get a pass for confusing me. Haha.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
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