Diagnosing the Problem: The Fans
by Tim Lynch on Nov 2, 2011 5:00 PM MDT
in Diagnosing the Problem
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I had an epiphany watching the San Diego Chargers vs. Kansas City Chiefs game on Monday that caused me to reach some conclusions about this franchise and its fan base that I don't particularly like, but ring truer than any wild ass theory regarding our favorite teams past, present and future situation.
The fundamental problem with the Denver Broncos franchise is its fans. Yes. We are destroying our team from the outside-in. The seeds were planted back in 2006 and we are now reaping the fruits of our labor. I say our, because I too played a role in the overall degradation of the so-called base.
Before some of you freak out, listen to why I've come to this conclusion and what I feel is the solution to this problem.
A Pattern of Behavior
Failure to accept reality. In a nutshell, Broncos fans are failing to accept reality - even now as we continue through the depths of despair we delude ourselves into believing that playing Tim Tebow will set this franchise on the right path. Perhaps it will, that fate is undecided and I am not here to push either school of thought. I am here to point out a pattern of behavior.
Think back to Mike Shanahan's mantra of "compete for a Super Bowl ever year". We all bought the line hook, line and sinker. We made excuses for the terrible drafts and mediocre talent that filled the roster from 2007 and 2008. Many of us were excited over the signings of Niko Koutouvides or Keary Colbert. Heck we even looked for a reason to think Jamal Williams was a beast!
Then came Josh McDaniels and after the catastrophe of Shanahan's three game collapse, many of us felt refreshed to be moving in a different direction. Many of us overlooked McDaniel's obvious red flags in the hopes of returning to greatness. I won't go into great detail, but each and every year the fan base deluded itself into thinking this team was on the cusp of greatness.
We mocked teams who purposely implemented plans to rebuild from the top down. Teams like the aforementioned Chiefs. We laughed when they traded Jared Allen and unloaded Tony Gonzales and Larry Johnson. What was this team thinking? Their going to be terrible for years!
Yeah, look who is laughing now. The Chiefs went young. Got rid of their veterans and their best players. By doing so, they were able to build a new identity. They shed the old guard and installed a new. Most of you saw the results on Monday. You saw a young team filled with pride and competitive fire. The Broncos are still trying to maintain "we're all professionals" mantra of Mike Shanahan, but all they really are now is a team without collective desire. I am not one to buy the idea that teams are bad because they have no talent. In the NFL, teams are separated less by talent and more by the mental aspect of the game. The Broncos as a team (with or without Tebow) lack the mental toughness to compete in this league.
The Solution
I began to see the light exactly a year ago as I write this post for tomorrow afternoon in a plea I wrote for Pat Bowlen. in it I said the following:
Fans and Journalists are not exactly macro-thinkers, rather they are invariably prone to emotional and irrational thoughts. A man in your position must look years into the future and I must believe you had to have known there would be more bad games than good games in the first two years.
12 months later it is plain to me now that Bowlen, nor anyone else in the front office, feels strong enough to do what is necessary. That is, to stand in the face of fan belligerence and make the personnel moves needed to right the Broncos ship.
Perhaps it is time to consider following the path the Kansas City Chiefs have laid out. For example, we trade Elvis Dumervil for a high draft pick, hopefully he will play his way into the first round by seasons end. We trade D.J. Williams for whatever we can get. I think Champ is a quiet leader and the Broncos would do well to keep him, however, every other aging veteran is expendable. Brian Dawkins, love your time here, but we need to get these young guys going. Kyle Orton, bye. Andre Goodman, see ya!
I know very few want to hear this and trust me when I say that I thought the Chiefs were completely insane to get rid of Jared Allen. I thought they were disloyal to get rid of Tony Gonzalez after so many years of greatness from him. You see, I bought that mantra of player loyalty - the country club mentality if you will - that began with Mike Shanahan and has continued through Josh McDaniels and now John Elway. And you know whose fault that is? Ours.
We demand it as fans. We insist that this franchise win football games regardless of long term realities. This franchise has drafted poorly in nearly every draft since 2000. This franchise is unwilling to spend big money on free agents, thanks in large part to major failures in that area as well. The only solution is to rebuild through the draft, but that will not likely force a change in the culture and mentality of this franchise as a whole.
In essence, I have come to the conclusion we are better off blowing it up and rebuilding the franchise from the ground up. We'll get the picks necessary and we'll change the culture of a franchise that has lost its way. Heck, blowing it up may even allow Tim Tebow the time he needs to overcome his flaws and become the type of quarterback many of us, myself included, think he can become.
I doubt any of this will happen, because this fan base will not allow it. We will string this along with pride and arrogance until we find ourselves years deep into an Oakland Raiders-type of collapse.
GO BRONCOS!
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Zappa, I 100% agree...
This whole things needs to be scrapped and started again.
Fans need to buy into REALISTIC expectations. We were all fooled with Foxy’s “Best chance to win” mantra…and we bought in and now are snowballing out of control holding EFX to this.
We all need to chill out, look for any positives we can find and move forward.
Great post!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Thanks!
Though you realize that include those of us who demanded and are demanding Tebow time. ;-) I look back on what I’ve written over the past 3+ years and I am not sure I like the person I see in the mirror.
Mate, I get it.....but demanding Tebow is just an effect of where our team is at.....and epitomizes the BS we have bought into as a fan base...
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Thats what I said...we bought in to a fantasy and now we need to rue that....when we should have bought into building a long term winner.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Come heck or highwater
I’m here until my temporal existence ends (my death)
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions
THe sad thing is, I don't think we were fooled by the "best chance to win" mantra.
I think Orton really DID give us the best chance to win. And THAT is sad. I thought we had the strongest stable of QBs at the beginning of the season. Vet starter. Wunderkind backup. 3rd stringer with starting experience and lots of upside.
ANyway, I’m chill now. I’m not speculating or characterizing anything. I’m just watching to see what happens.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
Disagree
Every year people yell about trading everyone and starting over. If we did this every year where would we be. Seems to me this cry for starting g over is usually just frustration lashing out with a whole lot of impatience mixed in. Elway has a 3 year plan to restore this team to competitiveness. How about giving him a chance to see this out? What has reall hurt this franchise is a lack of consistent direction. Everyone wants to start over and head in a new direction every year. See our last 6 defensive coordinators, all our recent coaching changes and all our QB changes for example. Don’t blow up Elway’s plan without seeing it through or we’ll all be crying to start over again in two years…
The fans have bought the product,
but they haven’t been the ones selling. You are right about this, though.
Perhaps it is time to consider following the path the Kansas City Chiefs have laid outYou must start over from the bottom or suffer the fate of teams like the Raiders until a couple of years ago.
Come on, Alex, please be good this year..
Follow @JesseReed78
I prefer what Green bay is doing...great model.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
They also amassed bad seasons year after year until think: What the heck are we doing?!
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:41 PM MDT up reply actions
dont forget
we beat them in the super bowl 13 years ago and they are in much better shape than we are 49-23 type better. They managed the right way Dove Valley did not.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
And go figure
Owned by the fans… maybe something to that…
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:46 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
was hoping someone would point that out
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
Wondering why anyone hadn't sooner...
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:50 PM MDT up reply actions
Below here
Somebody suggested Bowlen to sell the franchise to anyone who has money to invest and don’t want to move from Denver.
I agree. Maybe for the fans, like GB, could work… they are a small market and it works.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 11:44 PM MDT up reply actions
I know we sometimes have a grammar divide, Fabio
so I just wanted to clarify, the NFL will never allow an NFL team to be owned by the public ever again. They have a section of the CBA devoted to rules against just that.
Perseverance, secret of all triumph.
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 3, 2011 2:50 AM MDT up reply actions
I didn't know this section of the CBA
I think the fans owning a team is much more fair than this model of a person owning, even if Bowlen was a good one to our franchise.
So, never mind… The only possibility is a deep renew, selling to a younger one who doesn’t want to move from Denver and has some money to invest.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 10:50 AM MDT up reply actions
other than the fact
I have no money, so what can I do to make the franchise better? I hope McGeorge has as much money as this guy 
, or how else would we pay for top-notch talent?
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 10:58 AM MDT up reply actions
Co-owner and founder member of FC United of Manchester
You’re preaching to the choir – every sports team should be fan owned.
by mikebirty on Nov 3, 2011 3:30 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Good write-up sir
Dumervil should be back to his former self once he is 100%, something he hasnt been all year, so I’d like to see him stick around since he has a lot of great football left in the tank. Champ can still be a Charles Woodson type player a couple years down the road for us. DJ Williams may be expendable, but this team needs to focus on putting together strong drafts on both sides of the ball, while retaining talent that is worth retaining…getting rid of Champ and Dumervil for high draft picks wont matter if we are just losing productive players for picks that will produce productive players. DJ could get us draft picks where we arent trading position talent that doesnt have a good replacement(Woodyard)…however we have no replacement for Champ or Dumervil so I see no reason to run them out of town.
by knoepke84 on Nov 2, 2011 5:11 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
I'm not sure we can keep ANY of the high profile veterans
I think his point is that the Veterans won’t buy into the rebuilding. We’d need to start fresh, with guys that know they’re building a team from the ground up. Vets may not like it and will complain and cause locker room morale to go down.
GO BRONCOS!!!
The problem is
that our veterans are too veterans (and one or two steps off)… and our youngs are too young (and raw for the NFL for now). So we have no beetwen.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:44 PM MDT up reply actions
not really, FB
You can sort the statistics on the official site and look at the ages, either by oldest or youngest first. I posted on the subject of demographics at one point and noted that our age picture is improving.
You can view the situation in two ways, since our age is good but our record isn’t, but a large block of in-between players (27ish) should improve with the addition of talent. As I noted in my original post, the age of many of our recent acquisitions is in that ‘middlin’ range and therefore could be kept on the squad for a number of years before age impacts their performance.
******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"
It's interesting, I'll take a look on it
Maybe it’s an impression… because of Champ and Dawk and Good, etc.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 11:57 PM MDT up reply actions
click on age or exp at the top of the listing for roster
They don’t draw your attention to the fact that clicking at the top of any listing sorts the listing by that catagory, but you can sort by other than alphabetical listings of names.
We’ve cut a number of thirty-somethings over the course of the last year or so. Even unpopular cuts such as Bannan fall into the divesting ourselves of older players category. Here’s a quick listing without ages: Bannan, Williams, Graham, Buckhalter, Hill, Gaffney(trade), Lloyd(trade). There’s a few more, such as Anderson, L K Smith, and Jones, but talent figures into it, too. Also, a number of players are in this age range and were already on the roster, but their development counts in our favor, too. Names such as Dumervil (27), Larsen (27), Thomas (26), Woodyard (25), Royal (25), and others fit in here.
My impression was — rightly or wrongly — that we’d (Xanders?) placed some emphasis on bringing in players who had the potential of sticking around for a while and thus adding to the maturity/cohession of the team. The idea is to keep a nucleus together for longer. Here’s a quick listing: Bunkley, Mays, Fells, Rosario. Also, there are a number of other players for which the decision to keep them may have been influenced by their maturity. Situations vary but Willis, Whilhite, Cosby, Hunter and a few others are in the middlin age group.
Currently, we’re a very young team, which is yet another reason to take a long-term view. Too many changes are disruptive to a team’s development and we’re also still in the process of rebuilding, in part because of the changes. We’ve lost time because of all the changes and we lack cohesion because of the lack of an offseason, which affected us more than almost any other team since we were making a coaching/system change. This is not a rationalization of our weaknesses, however. The point is that we’re behind in both familiariy and personnel. Another offseason & draft/FA should help us address the problems. I have no problem whatsoever with rebuilding through high draft picks. Our competition is the AFC West had multi-year down periods and used them to acquire a huge amount of talent. I think everyone should look through the record book and see how much time and high picks it took to finally rebuild. It seems that many fans have systematically underestimated what it takes to rebuild.
******* George Santayana described fanaticism as -- "redoubling your effort after you've forgotten your aim"
by Colinski on Nov 4, 2011 1:11 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
While I think our fans are naive
they’re not the problem. Bad talent is the “fundamental problem.” If what you said was true then the Jets would not have won a game this past decade. I know because I live in NJ and even with Chad Pennington they thought they could win it all. Most fans are like this unless they’ve become numb to losing. I know it may seem like we are so radical, but if other fan bases of mediocre teams got this much press I think we’d see a similar level of blind optimism
My biggest problem with the team this season is that they are in win-now mode when its clear they should be looking to the future. To put Tebow and some other young guys on such a short leash is probably terrible for their psyche. Although I’d like some level of accountability, when we are rebuilding as we are we should be much more adept to let these young guys learn from their mistakes then bench them for some mistakes.
and to be fair, for this statement:
we delude ourselves into believing that playing Tim Tebow will set this franchise on the right path.
People (looking at you hoopforia and rocko1, who have mysteriously disappeared.) thought the same thing with Orton.
Raiders suck
Chargers are whiny douches
Chiefs are meh
I hope your not including me in the "head in the sand metaphor"
Raiders suck
Chargers are whiny douches
Chiefs are meh
Hey DBroncs
I guess you still didn’t get the point of this article… It was a great insight (or epiphany like Tim called it) about what we are doing and “charging” from our team. We are expecting them to do somethin that they can’t… at least not in the time we want, which means NOW.
We do need talent, you are right… But the point here is to think in really rebuilding. From the bottom of the piramid to the last triangle on the top. And we are having no patience or understanding for it.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:47 PM MDT up reply actions
I get what your saying
but again, yes we have high expectations year in and year out, but so does virtually every team’s fanbase besides the few who have seen so much losing (Cleveland, Cincy, Detroit). I don’t see it as a problem but its something that happens when there is this much bias, which is to be expected or else we wouldn’t be fans.
With the recent media spotlight, we are finally getting a view of a singular fan base from an outside perspective. Think about how much they’ve been talking about “Denver fans” on ESPN. No fanbase has been subjected to this much media attention in my lifetime, so while it may see from this that we are too radical in optimism, I think if ESPN were to delve into the psyche of say Jags fans, we would see that the majority of their fanbase is close to, it if not equal to, as radically optimist as we are.
Raiders suck
Chargers are whiny douches
Chiefs are meh
This is Garbage Dude
This team has been mismanaged for the past 6 years. and now its coming to a head. The fans did not runthe organization into the ground.
Idiots like Joe Ellis, Shanny GM ego, and McD ran it into the ground. Must most of these directly correlate back to Joe Ellis.
Tebow= the only hope left on the roster to cheer for
Wouldnt be an issue if Dove Valley had drafted properly and made good decisions
Shanny= Large ego and gave him too much power to feed that ego.
McD= see above with Shanny but with less experience and reputation of being a winner
Franchises want fans that care and that we do. We are the ones screaming no matter what. Screaming with joy or screaming with vile.
This is not on the fans its on Dove Valley.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
by BRASO on Nov 2, 2011 5:19 PM MDT reply actions 9 recs
You still sinned! REPENT!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
I repent daily
it’s as indigenous to me as showering and brushing my teeth
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 7:18 PM MDT up reply actions
I usually have to repent of something every 5 minutes.
I'll eat this 'Tebow Crow' when it has been given adequate time to cook.
No, you definitely sinned.
We all did
..We're 2-14 till we're not!
They say the cool is all over me..
Well....
….by the looks of your pants, I’d say you sinned pretty badly. Not quite sure how that affects the Broncos, but….
Braso, I think its on all of us....if you believe that the fans are part of the US.
Bowlen has always been a “fans” owner, so he has done a lot to appease and please them. He has also been TOO trusting with his HC/GM’s…to the team and fans detriment.
So, the hangover from Shanny and McD have given us the polar opposite: Fox.
So, yes, we do have a big part to play, I believe, but, like you are saying Braso, that should not forgive the mismanagement and hirings we have seen out of Dove valley the last 8 or so years!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Boydy I respect your take
but everything you just mentioned was Dove Valley. So if you are saying Dove Valley has lacked back bone for the last 6 years and let the fans bowl them over then fine.
But regardless its still on Dove Valley.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
by BRASO on Nov 2, 2011 5:39 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I agree mate...but some of those decisions have been because of the style of owner Bowlen is and that he listens to fans...that make sense...I am loaded up on DAYQUIL and struggling to write!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
If thats how you see it :)
Eveyone makes mistakes Tim, but you basically are blaming the customer for not tolerating a crappy product.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
I'm blaming the customer for being whiny babies who are unable to see the big picture.
And yes that includes myself. But hey, let’s keep bitching and demanding heads to roll every year the team fails.
by Tim Lynch on Nov 2, 2011 6:44 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Once again
Build a better product and take responsibility for your actions and the fans wont be screaming for heads to roll.
You are not even coming close to pointing at the issues with Dove Valley. Instead you are blaming the fans for being tired of a substandard product.
I get your point with moving forward but if you dont learn from the past then there is a real issue.
This fan is not going to stick his head in the ground and give blind faith. They need to show that they have some type of plan and then execute it.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
Which is why part of my solution to this problem is to ignore the fans for the next few years and do what is necessary to build a winning product.
Then again, all you say was garbage. :P
LOL
You dont need to take it personally, we all make garbage assumptions from time to time :P
The main issue has been Dove Valley and in my mind will continue to be Dove Valley until they prove otherwise.
They are ultimately responsible no matter what. they are the ones to pick the people who pick the talent who train the talent and design the plays for the talent to execute. Its on them not the fans.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
Ha, I'm not saying my opinion is garbage.
I was just trying to point out there are better ways to express your disagreement. The main issue is the front office, but that’s because they are weak and refuse to do what is needed because they fear the fans will revolt. Look at the shit we’ve pulled with Tebow…billboards, booing other players because they are higher on the depth chart…as fans we just suck right now. We suck worse than the Broncos do on the field. We even let opposing players jump into the south stands to celebrate touchdowns….
by Tim Lynch on Nov 2, 2011 7:08 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Kyle Orton deserved to be booed he was terrible
The Broncos were 1-4 when Tebow took over.
He’s looked bad and deserves to be booed as well.
Titus Young jumped into the middle of two fans with Lions jerseys—-not Broncos jerseys.
The crowd should have been out of the game, we were out of it by the 2nd quarter and have now lost 19 out of 25.
I’m not sure any how other FO would have treated the situation, but its a bit too early to call them weak eh?—-and assessing them as ‘they don’t have what it takes’ is knee jerk as well don’t you think? One draft, one offseason. If the fans are the problem, then this shortsighted assessment is one of the reasons why.
Besides
When Orton was benched for Tebow, Elway said publicly that he found out about it from John Fox…doesn’t sound like a FO executive that caved to a fanbase and told the coach to make the change does it?
Blaming the customer for not wanting a crap product is garbage Tim.
It defies any and all business logic.
The fans would not be sooo outraged had Dove Valley not been sooo inadequate for the past 6+ years.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
by BRASO on Nov 2, 2011 7:22 PM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I think it's two-fold
Yes, Dove Valley hasn’t been getting it done. At the same time, the fans need to realize building a team doesn’t take 2 games. If we continue to boo, stomp our feet, and pout every other week, it just compounds the problem.
Results are what matters
This regime will get its time to improve. But if they cant handle fan pressure then they need to find another line of work.
and so what if we do
“boo, stomp our feet, and pout every other week”
That means we care, or should we be indifferent?
ask Jacksonville how thats going
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
fan pressure should easily be handled
if you’re that thin-skinned, what the fudge are you doing in the NFL? /s/ Jay Cutler
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions
You must not know much about market forces
When fans are calling for an inferior product and then complain when it sucks, it’s on the fans.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Nov 2, 2011 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
Bravo!
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:50 PM MDT up reply actions
so what you are specifically saying is that its the fans fault for why the fanchise is what it currently is.
If you truly believe this and dont think Dove Valley owns the burden for their decision making then we dont have too much to talk about.
Once again:
They are the ones to pick the people who pick the talent who train the talent and design the plays for the talent to execute. Its on them not the fans.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
No, I'm saying the fans are part of the problem
When fans complain the FO doesn’t play the player they want (Cutler) then complain about the player (Cutler) then complain when he’s traded (McD/Cutler) then complain when they reach for a QB (McD/Tebow) then complain that the FO doesn’t play that player who they just didn’t want (Tebow) then complain that he sucks, yea I’m going to go with fans are fickle, volitile, short-sighted and generally acting on emotion. Fans should complain the FO won’t listen to them then when the FO does what they want, they complain.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Not in general...
i would argue you just lumped every muslim into the “extremist” category… (figuratively)
I would say most are pretty even keeled, and Tebowmania is something all its own… FL fans masquerading as Broncos fans
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:53 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm mostly talking about the fans
That fit this category that I described. If it doesn’t fit you, hurray!
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Plus you make it seem like thats all one group of fans doing the complaining at all times, when clearly its different sects of fans at different times.
C’mon max, your better than that
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:54 PM MDT up reply actions
That's true
Though I’m sure if we went back, we could track that the majority wanted these actions each time.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
ok so the fans tried to trade culter….
Then the fans hired a McD and gave him too much power
Then the fans forced Orton to piss himself in a contract year.
Once again:
They are the ones to pick the people who pick the talent who train the talent and design the plays for the talent to execute. Its on them not the fans.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
It's these fans who wanted it
These fans wanted their bed made a certain way, they need to sleep in it.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
WRONG
Fans didnt want Culter gone until McD tried to trade him for Cassell and then sold him as a malcontent to the fans. Culter didnt want to play for him because he was a phony, and this was proven out.
The majority of fans did not want Tebow drafted, the majority of fans wanted to draft defense, so instead Dove Valley trades like crazy people and drafts offense in the first round..
You cant have it both ways Max, Dove Valley made the bed, not the fans.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
You got a few facts wrong
The first is most fans did like the trade because we got such a good deal and Cutler was never popular once he started (He was popular before he started). Secondly you do know Bowlen was the one who really traded Cutler right, though McD was shopping him, but Cutler’s bad behavior towards the owner was the real reason he was traded. Also your second paragraph is what I said. I think people just like yo rewrite history so they come out on top.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
A lot of that is BS Max and you know it
The Cutler trade was wildly unpopular in Denver. You are misremembering history. Jay’s rep was pretty neutral at the time. He was a pro bowl QB that said some dumb stuff, but up great stats and won about 50% of his games.
McJedi was immediately hated by the fan base after that trade. Bowlen did the trade (after Bowlen said he couldn’t remember a few things), but he only did the trade because Cutler was being such a little girl about everything once Josh botched the Cassel thing.
X > Tim Tebow
by McGeorge on Nov 3, 2011 9:17 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
so basically
You’re saying that Cutler was traded because of Bowlen and not the fans?
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 3, 2011 9:26 AM MDT up reply actions
The feelings in Denver on Jay Cutler was most ambivilant hope after 2008. He had played good enough to give us hope he’d improve but bad enough to make us worry about his future.
All I know is no one wanted to see him traded, they wanted to see him play under a QB guru like McJedi. Only McJedi tried to trade Jay before even seeing him in a single practice.
Josh was petulant and impatient. Just look at the 2009 draft for more proof.
X > Tim Tebow
I'm going to back McGeorge on this
Cutler wasn’t hated…even when he asked for a trade most of the fan base were just hoping that we wouldn’t lose him. I thought it was pathetic and wanted him gone, but at the time I was in the minority by far.
The fan base became split at that point…probably 60% thinking McDaniels was awful and 40% really backing him up.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Yes sadaraine
Bingo. This sounds accurate to me.
It was a split and more the fan base backed Cutler than McJedi. Josh wasn’t kind of hated in 2009, he was wildly hated. MHR was a minority voice, not a majority back then.
What occurred to me once Cutler had been dealt was that I should hate them both. In the end, I think I was right on that call.
X > Tim Tebow
Hindsight being 20/20
Yeah you were right :)
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
A person is smart. People are stupid.
“The Fans” as a collective are a bunch of kneejerk lunatics. I’ve said this before: Fans are less like customers and more like students. You don’t let students determine the curriculum, or decide what they learn, or decide what assignments will help them learn better. Sure students have the most vested interest in classroom operations. But they most certainly do NOT have the experience and qualifications to know what’s best for them.
THe problem with fans is impatience, as Tim said. Every time we lose a game, fans cal for heads to roll. There is ALWAYS a scapegoat – a villain of the week. THe REAL villain is inconsistency. Changing visions every few years does not help. And the fans are the impetus behind that inconsistency. Fans may not be employed by Dove Valley, buy they help or hurt the team based on the support they give the players on the field. We are a part of the atmosphere in Denver, in the locker room throughout the week, and on game day. And right now, it’s not supportive. Fans are providing very little other than bile and vitriol in the current climate, and what this argument boils down to is a “chicken or the egg” concept: Is the team’s bad play causing the fans to be angry, or is the fans’ lack of support spoiling the mood of the players? If the players can’t break the cycle (as pros, should they be able to? yes! But why not try having supportive fans and SEE how it goes?) then the fans should break the cycle by being supportive of the TEAM ON THE FIELD no matter what. NO MATTER WHAT. That’s the difference between a fanatic and a critic.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
by HarvJNep2n on Nov 3, 2011 5:28 AM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
Finally
someone mentions Ellis. He was a major force behind picking the GM and Mcd. I also remember hearing something about him fighting against the Elway hire. Ellis wanted to copy the patriots model ( hens Mcd) and put himself in position to take over from bowlen when the time came. He knew Elway would and could take a lot of power and is interested in eventually owning or partially owning the franchise.
It could have all been speculation but it made a lot of sense and the dots seamed to connect.
by KarlMecklenburg77 on Nov 2, 2011 5:35 PM MDT up reply actions
Hens? mmmmm....chicken!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Its the people at the top
That are ultimately responsible no matter what. they are the ones to pick the people who pick the talent who train the talent and design the plays for the talent to execute.
Joe Ellis was a huge issue, but I think Elway told him to shut up and sit down.
Now its on John to shut up and fix it. Because it starts at the top. and to blame the customer for not liking a crappy product is insane.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
What do you think about Elway becoming the new owner? I think Bowlen needs to get put of it.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
I think he may be a better owner then GM/ Pres. But I dont know that for sure and dont want to come accross as not being respectful to the dude that was my childhood hero. Would love to see him own the team.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
Again with the impatience. You've given Elway a lockout-shortened offseason
and 6 games. And now you don’t want him to be GM/Pres anymore. Do you think, after Shanahan and McDaniels (who was also run out of town before his aggressive and ingenious vision could be completed), that the ship could be righted immediately? DO you think ANYONE, the Duke included, could have made this a winning franchise in a single season? If so, more power to you, but the burden of proof is on YOU. And pointing to the failures of others is not proof.
THat being said, I realize it’s a bit of an overreaction to what you said, or, rather, it was a reaction to your first sentence. The caveat in your second and third sentences makes the tone of my comment more aggressive than it needs to be, so sorry if I offend. I’m just trying to point out the impatience of fans.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
Facts are
Elway has more experience as an owner than a GM/ President. Dove Valley has not had an experienced front office with a track record of developing talent in over 10 years.
Elway may be the fix, and he may not, I am done giving the benefit of the doubt based on their track record as an organization.
I am in the show me dont tell me phase, they have abused the trust I have so readily given them for the past 22 years.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
SO you are going to ask the next guy to show you in six games.
Then when he can’t, because no one can turn this boat around in that short amount of time, you would find someone else who will still be unable to deliver. It’s not the systems. It’s the length of time we are giving the systems. It’s not enough. Shanahan? Yes. That was enough. McDaniels? Too soon. Sure, he made a lot of mistakes. But he was not given the chance to fully rebuild this team the way he wanted. And now we have this mutant-hybrid of players that were drafted for 3 different schemes, and it looks like a product of NFL Chernobyl. We gotta stick with something. It will get darker before the dawn, but you can’t just keep rolling heads. It’s wishy-washy and it’s like a headless chicken trying to commit to a direction to walk. Invariably, it will just bleed to death where it stands.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
Not at all and I agree with what you are saying
Look as a sports fan I am not ignorant about rebuilding. The teams I bleed for are:
Houston Astros- Finally rebuilding by gutting the roster. Have been screaming for years that it needed to be done. I now get more joy from looking at the minor league box scores then the Majors
Houston Rockets- Injuries have killed this team and the inability to stick with a plan has been disasterous. But the NBA has changed, you need to have a elite players that want to sign with you as a free agent, other wise the talent coming out of the draft only produces 1-3 great players a year.
Lornghorns- coaching got stale and they gutted the coaching staff and mentality. 2-3 years away from competing for a national championship.
The problem with Tims post that inspired me to go nuts was the concept that the fans were to blame for the retardation coming out of Dove Valley, not the request for patience.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
I guess my point was
it was mainly fans who were impatient – calling for heads to roll at the first sign of bad things.
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
No way was McD too soon
That guy made some colossal errors on personnel that some of the fans were calling bull on without hindsight. The team was in a bad tailspin with no end in sight. The video scandal cover up thing was the final nail in the coffin
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Eventually I think it would be great, he’s a little green right now but in another year or two it could be perfect timing. Our best quarterback ever just so happens to be a great business man, so with a bit more nfl executive experience the stars could align.
Bowlen isnt capable of doing press conferences anymore due to his alzheimer’s. I imagine there is a huge power struggle happening behind the walls at dove valley preparing for his departure.
by KarlMecklenburg77 on Nov 2, 2011 5:55 PM MDT up reply actions
Look, I mean
Elways a great guy. Great leader. Intangibles and all that. But he isn’t a very good FO guy right now. I mean, I’d love for him to marry my mother…
by margle on Nov 2, 2011 6:59 PM MDT up reply actions 4 recs
Hes a rookie,,,correct...as is McCoy as game planning OC.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Haha margle, that's funny:)
Very clever indeed!
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 3, 2011 7:45 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Yep...gave me a laugh too...nice job!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
HAHA
Took me a minute to get that. Funny tho.
Make a Difference, that is the best any man can do.
by JREDbroncofan on Nov 3, 2011 4:40 PM MDT up reply actions
Also I wonder if the Broncos should have stuck to a 3-4
Dumervil and Miller may have been able to put 12-15 sacks out of a 3-4 alignment…but the organization and fans have showed little patience allowing anything to develop into what it’s meant to be…The fanbase I feel has been unfair in its expectations(considering the talent of the O-line) in Moreno. The fanbase has been unfair to Ayers as well expecting 15 sacks a season. And now the fanbase is being unfair to Tebow and Thomas…expecting immediate greatness from 1st rd picks or we send them packing.
by knoepke84 on Nov 2, 2011 5:21 PM MDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
I actually agree about the 3-4. Miller would be optimized and so would Mays.
but hey nothing wrong with a properly run 4-3 either.
I'll eat this 'Tebow Crow' when it has been given adequate time to cook.
People seem to forget that Moreno led all rookies in rushing halfway through his rookie year. He’s got the talent, and he’s got the potential. All it takes is a little patience. There’s a reason that 1st rounders sign 5 year contracts instead of 2-3 year contracts. Same goes for Tebow. It was known when we drafted him that he’d be a 2-4 year developmental/project QB. So why is everyone freaking out after his 5th career start in his 2nd year? Patience people. We suck. It’s going to take some time for the coaches and front office put their stamp on this team. Just relax.
by jbbroncosfan27 on Nov 2, 2011 5:47 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
there's a selection bias at work here
loud fans get heard. patient, knowledgeable fans tend to be quieter. in the stands we can see that the loudmouths are yhe exception — the majority of broncos fans are, in my opinion, pretty patient and fairly good sports. but on the internet we get a skewed image — the silent majority is hidden. i’m perfectly willing to be patient, wait, lose for a while, to rebuild. i’m perfectly willing to let tebow stink the joint up — as long as he progresses, as long as there is hope, as long as there’s a reasonable chance it will work out in a season or two. and i pretty much reflect the majority opinion of the group of fans i hang out with. sure we got a little spoiled with shanny. but overall i think broncos fans are smarter and more patient than anyone, including the broncos’ fo, gives us credit for. what i don’t want is for a perception of panic or fan revolt to be artificially generated by kizla and hoge and a few strident fans who can’t stand to see us stink. we do stink. it’s been a while. it sucks. oh well — so it goes. we may as well stink with a little dignity and give tim and the broncos a little time to see if he can make an nfl quarterback of himself before we tear everything down and start over. again. patience. most of us understand that.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
by orange cube on Nov 2, 2011 5:26 PM MDT reply actions 10 recs
Very well stated.....The vocal minority.
W-L record doesn't matter to me.... I just want to see a team on the rise at the end of the year!
GO BRONCOS and GO CARDS!!!
Here Here!
It is interesting that the vocal ones are what everyone hears and perceives as what all Bronco fans are. That is simply not true. I agree with orange cube, there are more Bronco fans that are not as outspoken as some malcontents; therefore, we look rabid to outside entities. Where I work there are a ton of Bronco fans, and most of us are willing and ready to be patient with a rebuild. It is always darkest before the rising sun. We will come out of the black of night, just have to have patience. I for one and ready for the LONG HAUL!
Make a Difference, that is the best any man can do.
by JREDbroncofan on Nov 3, 2011 4:48 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes
orange, patience is not sexy so my MSM brethren don’t report about it
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 6:24 PM MDT up reply actions
it really is about being sexy, isn't it?
you sell news papers by lobbing bombs, not by being measured and sensible. you want to increase your viewership, more eyeballs on your web page, then find the edges and push beyond them. the herd says the qb sucks? declare he is THE WORST PLAYER EVER. is there growing concern over his lack of progress? confidently announce that he is FATALLY FLAWED, that his mechanics are UNCORRECTABLE, that according to sir isaac newton and the discipline of sports medicine it is SCIENTIFICALLY IMPOSSIBLE FOR HIM TO EVER IMPROVE. you might want to add that THE ONCE PROUD FRANCHISE IS A SMOLDERING RUIN and that anyone not shouting as angrily and loudly as you are is an EMASCULATED DOUCHEBAG and henceforth should only be referred to with feminized names — like patty or joan, brandy or timocita. and the funny thing is, none of this really relates to or reflects football as i know it. football, to me, was about training and practice, technique, execution — really it came down to trust. and sure we got revved up and hyped up and that was fun, but plays were made as the result of intense effort, preparation, focus and trusting in your team-mates. you either made it to the qb or you didn’t, made it over in time to provide inside help or you didn’t. same with the other guys. we won together, we lost together, and we developed relationships that were far more profound than the hysterical palaver that the msm rolls out on trollies on a daily basis. i’m not particularly interested in merril hoge or jamie dukes interrupting each other, in jim rome spewing vile nonsense. that’s crap. that ain’t football. my football ain’t sexy. but it is real, and honest, it takes some knowledge and time and patience, and it’s pretty rewarding. and i’m willing to bet that most broncos fans, or at least broncos fans on mhr, have at least a somewhat similar set of insights and expectations. i think it is wrong to let the lowest common denominator — the angriest and the loudest — act as the set point for public reaction. because i think it just isn’t so, it underestimates us tremendously. i want efx to make football decisions based solely on football, and have a little faith that we fans will understand and come along.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
Tim You're the man
I’ve been thinking this but couldn’t of put in the words you have
Mile High Salute
fire the fans, i say!
please keep my million dollar fan paycheck. i cannot accept it due to my poor performance.
"Well, it's not like we signed him off the street..." — J. Fox
don’t you think they kind of are though? i mean, it looks like fox is bowing to the fans a little but only because orton sucked, and now it just feels like he’s just going through the motions to get to the part where the entire board is cleared for next year. (assuming the fans are the ones pushing tebow time). anyway, for better or worse it’s foxball 2012. go foxball.
"Well, it's not like we signed him off the street..." — J. Fox
or at least those who get stuck in the past and on the WHAT IFs....
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:52 PM MDT up reply actions
or
the ones who make a point of learning from the past and try not to repeat the mistakes.
I have an idea lets stick our heads in the ground and pretend we are the ones who have made the decisions and signed employees in Dove Valley.
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
Braso
Nobody of us did it.
But we all are creating such a vicious enviroment at Dove Valley, and that for sure affects the team. That’s all simple: we want the new Elway (the new messias) to come again and win another(s) Super Bowl(s). But the most part of us, me included, can’t wait and have patience to let it happen. We just keep chanting for WIN NOW and damaging our team instead of supporting.
Could you imagine if Doom had been placed on the trading block 2 weeks ago, what a complete pandemonium we fans would have created??? We would never understand this move, but it may makes sense for a long-term solution to start winning games.
We are passionate fans, but sometimes we boo so much every decision that we disturb everything. At I think this was the point of Tim on this post, which I agree entirely althought I still can’t break my own paradigm of the wins.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 12:09 AM MDT up reply actions
*AND I think it was the point...
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 12:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Everyone
keeps saying Tebow was handed the job mainly because of fan pressure. Didn’t Orton play himself out of it? I was at the Charger game, Orton looked horrible and that Charger team was ripe for the L in that game, all we needed was average QB play IMO. It didn’t matter who came in, the team just needed a change. My point is I think the FO has more blame here then some fans chanting for a backup QB.
Release the Tebow!
Yes I agree.. Ignore the fans..
Begin by getting rid of Tebow and Orton and getting a franchise QB that can throw the football… (Carolina and Cincinnati). We need a QB that makes other on the Offense better.
Pickup a FA DT and OLB. It takes years for DTs to develop no need to waste an early pick
KEEP DOOM!!!! Pass Rushers have off years… Look how Jared Allen is dominating after an off season.
And draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd round!!!!
by Damon322 on Nov 2, 2011 5:35 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
seems you may get your way on the Big QB
Elway was seen roaming the Stanford practice Wed.
Be prepared for what that will cost with other picks being given up for that.
Earth to Fox: Let Tebow play his own game.
Big QB YES GO GET HIM !!!
Josh Mcdaniels left this team with two backup quarterbacks and a long range project that he would not even consider putting on the field. he did nothing to improve an awful defense . you can’t blame the fans for all the bad moves over the years as Braso has stated above. A team starts at QB and it’s clear the broncos don’t have one other than backups . I remember their were many fans that said the Broncos gave up to much when they traded for Elway . Yes there are a great many holes on this team but none are as glaring as the QB position . Let Orton and Quinn walk after the season then decide if Tebow is worth keeping as a backup. With no off season for Fox and Elway to get to know these players they are just now finding out what they have . Expect to see a lot of changes in the coming off season there will be a lot of trades and waved players this year . All in all this is not on the fans thank God for the fans of Broncos Country if we did not get upset about a crappy product on the field things might never change , this is a proud fan base with a record of sellouts even in the lean years . I remember a half full Arrowhead that I could always get a good seat to watch the Broncos play and was worth the drive from Norman,Ok. to Kansas City . EFX will get this turned around after all what the hell did you expect out of a 4&12 team with a knew front office and coaching staff . Stay tuned young grasshopper their will be better days ahead just not many this season.
by ultraclassic04 on Nov 3, 2011 8:16 AM MDT up reply actions
I don't get the correlation
I actually like the article and your points. There is great validity to taking a KC approach and attacking the draft. The problem is that the Broncos haven’t had a real front office in probably a decade. The fans didn’t trade up to draft Jarvis Moss, didn’t sign the Cleveland Browns defensive line, didn’t draft Knowshon Moreno, didn’t make late night calls to KC to trade Cutler, didn’t get a pissing match with Brandon Marshall, and didn’t trade to get Tim Tebow. This was all the work of various members of Broncos leadership.
The article seems to start by discussing the fans, then actually delves into some solid theory about the future of the team, and then tries to tie how that won’t happen back to the fans wanting to win football games. I am just not making the connection.
If anything, I think your views on the fans are completely backwards. The majority of fans that aren’t drunk and screaming Tebow are willing to blow things up and start young. All they (we) care about is that there is a unified and clear direction because that has not been present in recent memory.
The Slipper Still Fits - SB Nation's home for the Gonzaga Bulldogs!
by Zach Bell on Nov 2, 2011 5:39 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Good post Zach...and honestly, for most reasonable Tebow fans, they just hope that Tebow is part of that youth movement that helps bring Broncos back to prominance...
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Because I believe the Front Office does what it does to placate the fans short term while ignoring the long term.
I guess I could have done a better job tying the two together.
We need a new owner.
Here is a better idea. Pat Bowlen sell the team to someone younger, with more money and more fire.
Pat had his day in the sun. Many of them. Many very good days and we owe him our thanks. Now he is an old man. His fortune wanning, his children not wanting anything to do with this franchise.
We need an owner that will spend $$$ on a kick ass scouting department, on a kick ass assistants, on a kick ass locker room and HQ.
If you track Denver’s demise to where we are today, it follows the demise of Pat Bowlen due to heath and age. I’m ready for a new day, a completely new day.
A day where Pat Bowlen sells the team and someone else injects their $$$ and energy into this franchise.
X > Tim Tebow
by McGeorge on Nov 2, 2011 5:41 PM MDT reply actions 2 recs
I wrote above that I hope he sells to Elway and his partners.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Agreed.
We need an owner who will spend up to the salary cap ceiling rather than being forced to spend the minimum.
Oh, you were finished? Oh, well, allow me to retort!
--Jules Winnfield
by GrizBronc on Nov 2, 2011 5:50 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Cuban...
He would spend spend spend, and with baseball blocking his bid on the Dodgers, now would be the time.
Too bad this would never happen.
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 8:59 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Sorry...I just puked a little in my mouth...
That would be horrible.
W-L record doesn't matter to me.... I just want to see a team on the rise at the end of the year!
GO BRONCOS and GO CARDS!!!
Didn’t Cuban just win an NBA Championship? Hasn’t his team been competitive for the last decade?
Why is that pukable?
X > Tim Tebow
I wouldnt be against it
Nor if Kroenke bought it
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Kroenke can be cutthroat too
But he’s allowed a lot of spending for the St Louis Rams, but they still aren’t winning.
MOZGOD Member #35
Yeah, but he's put out good products in the Rapids, Avalanche, and Nuggets
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Bowlen is the only owner a lot of us have ever known. But really, what if he has had his day in the sun and that sun has set?
It’s something that isn’t discussed much because of loyalty to the man (by the fans)…
Maybe it’s time to start having those talks.
X > Tim Tebow
McGeorge,
I am open to this idea…. but what good can it do for us as fans to discuss it? We have ABSOLUTELY no control over that ,right?
-Harvey J. Neptune
Pain is temporary. Pride is forever.
On and ever upward. Forward, never backward.
The past is over. The future is unwritten. All we can do is affect our own destiny, God willing, and roll with the punches and make the best of our situation. We all know what is right and what is wrong. So we should do what is right.
Cuban is a great owner. Goes out of his way to make the Mavs’ facilities and staff attractive to free agent players. Looks for innovative ways to analyze potential acquisitions and lineups. And of course spends a lot of money.
i keep dancing on my own.
Cuban helped my Mavs win the NBA title
sorry McGeorge :(, but imagine what he can do for OUR Broncos!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Cuban has the energy the team needs and knows how to build winning franchises. I would absolutely love this. I don’t get your comment?
"I get sick when I hear athletes say I’m not a role model" "Yes you are. You’re just not a very good one." -Tim Tebow
by MTBroncosFan on Nov 3, 2011 10:14 AM MDT up reply actions
I am a Mavericks fan
in the NBA, whenever it comes back so Cuban owning my favorite NFL and NBA team would be epic, as much as I respect Mr. Bowlen and the great things he has done! Nothing lasts forever
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 10:54 AM MDT up reply actions
Conversly, Im a Spurs fan
And even I love the idea of Cuban owning the Broncos. That should say something.
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 3, 2011 4:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Well there is no NBA
perhaps never again so the important thing is we’re both Broncos fans but I’m glad you approve of Cuban, hopefully Mr. Holt and the other owners help bring out a new CBA, eh?
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 6:23 PM MDT up reply actions
I feel like he's a Prima Donna owner who whines when he doesn't get his way....
Steinbrenner comes to mind.
Maybe I’m way off about him as an owner, but some of his other interests also tell me a lot about his character. I’m not going to get political however.
W-L record doesn't matter to me.... I just want to see a team on the rise at the end of the year!
GO BRONCOS and GO CARDS!!!
i wonder about bowlen's health.
for so long he was a model owner. then he fired shanny — maybe overdue — but there wasn’t a clear and rapid hiring process immediately thereafter, and mcd got started late and had a shortened period to prepare for his first draft. then, if i understand correctly, it was bowlen, not mcd, who finally blew up and agreed to trade cutler, after cutler didn’t return his call. that was weird — and short sighted. finally, i never quite got the timing of the mcd firing — in the middle of an already wasted season, and just two weeks after what looked like an endorsement of mcd? really strange. where was the benefit in that? why not let kid mcgenius play out the string? why reinforce the impression that the broncos are rudderless and drifting? has it been confirmed that bowlen has alzheimers? there are other dementias — fronto-temporal, namely, which are more likely to include behavioral and emotional changescearly on, but all can affect behavior eventually. is tge dude getting a little labile and disinhibitted? shame, really. and it doesn’t take long to tear down a franchise that took decades to build.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
Perhaps Mr. Bowlen does need to sell the team
just sell it to someone who doesn’t move the franchise, that’s my major concern, The Broncos mean a lot to fans outside of Colorado too, regardless of what our stupid SLC channels say, Utah is Broncos Country, it’s not for the douchebag Faiders
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 7:23 PM MDT up reply actions
I don't see Broncos moving
If someone wants to relocate a franchise, there are weaker teams for them to pick off than Broncos. They have a good base here in Denver.
Did it dawn on you that Bowlen may be the biggest problem of all? I can’t be the only one thinking Pat has lost something (a lot of that something) over the last decade.
X > Tim Tebow
Money?
start with the skybox debacle in Old Mile High….
…get screwed on a new 30 year lease that turns over all concession and parking revenue, along with scoreboard advertising to the city…
…decide that you aren’t going to take it anymore, and play some hardball….
…send native son Ellis to League offices in New York to work on the stadium bond board, let him cut his teeth on the new Cleveland stadium….
…chat with Elway about creative ways to create a financing bond, remember to ask him if he is interested in buying part of the team…
…oops, Kaiser caught wind of the talks, so spend a large sum setting up siblings as subsidiaries and moving Broncos ownership through various closely held companies, while surviving a Kaiser lawsuit…
…Ellis returns, campaign to get out of Mile High lease, arrange for a yes vote on an extended stadium tax with local “silent hand” growth coalition, it’ll only cost a twenty seat luxury box for the board members and their friends…
…toss in an extra $2mil in personal funds to form and fund a prostadium lobbying group, the largest single donation to an issue campaign in Denver history…
…get pissed at “hardball city politics” that refuse to get screwed like they did with the Coors Stadium lease….
…up the ante on your own personal debt to push deal through…
…build new stadium…
….get pissed again when the final lease is nowhere near as friendly as the Coors deal, note escalating payments becoming due in 2012-2013 if stadium tax fails to hit certain thresholds in that time….
…watch national economy tank, once again noting stadium tax thresholds, and weeping because there is no way they will be reached….
…call league offices only to find out that you aren’t the only one with stadium financing problems…
…ask about secret G-3 program, only to find out it is bankrupt…
…field call from league office and agree to head up a “lockout committee,” whatever that is…
…lockout…
…turn over day to day operations to Ellis, and figure out how to get John Elway on board for plan B….
…work tail off to get fans butts into seats, note to self, ask psychologist if she thinks any of the recent money stress might have affected your decisionmaking in business and other matters….
…lament Elway’s lack of $1.2billion dollars to buy franchise (don’t forget the franchise fee, which gets paid to all the rest of the owners for the right to sit at their table with the ‘big boys.’….
…watch product go downhill…
…note wryly that the fans blame themselves….
Perseverance, secret of all triumph.
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 3, 2011 3:39 AM MDT up reply actions 8 recs
You are confirming with lots of facts and insights I’ve never known what I worry about. That Pat’s business (the Broncos) are in trouble.
A friend of a friend used to be a scout for the Broncos (under McJedi). He quit, he hated it actually. Smart guy, but the pay was horrible, hours long and McJedi just tossed most of his work product because Josh had his mind made up on a short board of players.
That said, just pay the guy more and he’ll stick around even if the coach and GM are doing their own thing regardless.
Then Pat not even hiring a real GM for McJedi? The austerity measures around Dove Valley have taken their toll. Not just in fewer UFAs signed, but probably cuts everywhere that impact things like our scouting of college and pro players, like the quality of the assistant coaches. This guy Xanders is our GM? Your Peter principle at work Jeremy?
I think the thing that is (by far) the most wrong with Denver right now is Pat Bowlen. Not the fans, not the coaches, or players. It’s ownership. It’s the FO.
X > Tim Tebow
You can rec it, but
“…note wryly that the fans blame themselves…”
This flies in the face of your entire thesis Tim.
X > Tim Tebow
Yeah, but I understand and respect why he said it.
I’ve never been one to not rec something just because I don’t agree 100%. I rec when the comment/post is deserving of a rec regardless of my position.
But in this case, it’s 0% agreement (it’s black vs white).
You wrote, “We are destroying our team from the outside-in”.
Jeremy’s post and mine are directly saying that this team is being destroyed from the inside-out (Jeremy – financial, me Bowlen’s physical/mental health).
Are you sure you blame the fans? Are you sure you should?
X > Tim Tebow
I say the fans are as much at fault as Bowlen or anyone else.
We pretend we are holier than thou…look in the mirror collectively.
Then you admit your whole premise is wrong. We are not destroying the team from outside in.
You’re now saying it’s being destroyed from all directions (Bowlen, fans, Joe Ellis, bad players, anyone else).
That’s a big distinction. Maybe we share in the blame, but we certainly don’t take the Lion’s share. Saying that would just be stupid and it now sounds like you’re not saying that at all.
Fair share, sure. But Bolwen and Dove Valley have their shaky finger prints all over our recent demise.
X > Tim Tebow
No I don't.
I am saying the fans are forcing the hands of Bowlen, Ellis, etc.
Please do not put words in my mouth. Re-read my post… If you don’t get what I am trying to say then I’m sorry.
I read your post
similar to how I read Harv’s up above…there is nothing we can do about the state of the business itself, but we can salvage part of OURSELVES by practicing the virtues of patience and understanding.
This includes humoring those who don’t, and fostering it in anyone who joins our community.
MHR was founded as a ‘safe’ place for Broncos fans, and outside of the logistical problems associated with a 10,000 member strong community, that is still the goal. The point of ‘safe’ is that it makes it possible for us to open ourselves up to the process of understanding, without fear. It is a bumpy road that gets smoother with support. I just watch the blame game, because through it, you can gauge the whole understanding process. Blame is a fear-based mode of thinking.
Perseverance, secret of all triumph.
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 3, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
I was telling McG off. You see. :P
I wasn’t even focused on the business end of it, rather focused on how overbearing the this fan base has become.
I understand what it means to be a fan, but I’ve never experienced anything like this. Ever. Not in 1991. Not in 1999. What’s changed is the level of access and ability to force the hands of those in decision-making positions.
It’s the new social media, baby! I was just asking people to give it a rest for a year or two and let go of the instant gratification for a bit…
I’ve been firmly in the “we suck” camp since 2009. Never bought into the McJedi era. My expectations were in line with reality back then as they were before this season. My head is not in the clouds and I don’t need instant gratification.
But I can’t do anything for or against Bowlen. I’m not season ticket holder, I don’t buy concessions, I don’t own jerseys (there are for kids under 13). He is not getting my money and that is the only place I can impact him. Those of you that do/can, God bless.
It is Pat Bowlen that is killing his team with poor decision making and unprecedented austerity measures Pat is losing his grip on good owner status. Has been for a while now.
I think the only thing that saves this current team is a monster draft or two. Or we hire an impact-ful coach like they did in San Fran. We don’t have the on-field talent or coaching talent to compete on an 8-8 or better level. We’re short on talent in terms of players and FO personnel (not fan support).
Blaming the social media is for the birds. But we do a lot of pretending as Bronco fans. Now we pretend Bowlen is hamstrung by Denver’s fans and not his own short comings.
Well I’m not of the opinion that better fans make DT a better WR, make Tebow more accurate, make Orton perform under pressure or into a running threat, make Franklin quicker, make Moreno run with conviction, make Fox more cunning, make Dawkins better vs the pass, make our O & D line depth NFL legitimate, make our scouting department stronger, make Xanders a real GM. All that comes from Bowlen making better decisions at the top. That’s my two cents.
X > Tim Tebow
I can see it working out that way too....
However, I don’t think that alone will change the culture in the locker room – which is why I felt selling some of the higher priced veterans down the road would also be a good strategy to take.
I wonder if at the end, Bowlen would have been better served by just renovating the old Mile High...
Lambeau Field and Arrowhead got recent (Within the last 10 years) renovations and look great and probably cost a fraction of the price of building a brand new stadium…
Then again, Owners like to wag their (figuratively) “big” egos around to show how much money they got…
MOZGOD Member #35
Fenway is what, 100 years old?
There are also ‘ancient’ stadiums in Canada and Europe that do just fine and don’t hold back the market.
But here in America, stadiums are more akin to public “monuments,” and the goals and results are predictably similar: lots of public money siphoned and essentially laundered, escalating shows of vanity and excess, political city power struggles, which basically completes the great circle of crap.
We likely can’t know exactly how business could have been conducted differently, or who the bad guys were (I’m sure it is a mixed bag from top to bottom, but we do know that the NFL’s need to constantly build more stadiums outstrips its capabilities as a business by such a profound margin, that it is essentially a bubble, just waiting for reality to set in. It wouldn’t surprise me if Bowlen is the first to pop, though the Raider situation might have a head start. The next big litmus test for the leagues fiscal viability is the next sale of a team, and how it goes down. Do they accept market forces and reduce or eliminate the franchise fee? Does a city like SD basically refuse to kowtow to the stadium demands of a relocation?
It isn’t football, but it can’t help but have an effect on the game….
Perseverance, secret of all triumph.
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 3, 2011 12:42 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah Jeremy...thats it in a nut shell.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
How this idea is still not green?
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:53 PM MDT up reply actions
While I agree with your assesment of the fans,
I disagree that anything should be “scrapped”. That’s a similar attitude to “win now” at all cost, but just the opposite end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle seems like the best bet to me. Which as of now appears to be what EFX is doing. Shoot, I’m in the minority that thought McD should get his 3 years to correct the ship, regardless of the outcome. I will be extremely dissapointed if we don’t let Fox have his 3 years. Because then who’s going to want to come and coach for the Broncos knowing their job depends on the ever swaying emotional voice of the “fans”.
The glass is usually twice as big as it needs to be.
However....
…not sure everyone must go.
Elvis…no (unless he can’t stay healthy);
The rest of the D-Line….Hell YES!;
DJ…YES!;
Goodman…..YES!;
Dawkins…unfortunately, yes;
Almost the entire offense except for Decker, J.Thomas, Green, D.Thomas (again, if he can stay healthy), and maybe Clady (although he seems to have lost a step or two since his injuries).
Champ has to go too
Still has excellent trade value and his skills only deteriorate from here.
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:15 PM MDT up reply actions
How to handle
“The proud of having Champ Bailey retiring as a Bronco”??
It’s bullshit from us, but that’s we Broncos are: passionate, stubborn and “loyalty” fans.
However, the best for the franchise would be yes trading him for picks.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 12:12 AM MDT up reply actions
also
his cap hit next year is over $15mil. And no, that is not a typo.
He, Goodman, and Dawkins will make up $28.486mil in cap hit, with about $24mil of that coming in actual cash cost.
Cost to cut or trade for these three? $8.462mil against the cap.
Perseverance, secret of all triumph.
by Jeremy Bolander on Nov 3, 2011 3:52 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks Cube, well spoken.
The majority of broncos fans are, in my opinion, pretty patient and fairly good sports. but on the internet we get a skewed image
Tim, don’t worry so much. Internet fans are not indicative of the fanbase as a whole.
"Ready are you? What know you of ready?"
Yoda
Billboards not withstanding.
Booing Orton to open TC not withstanding.
Chanting Tebow’s name during every home game he isn’t starting not withstanding.
Honestly, I think us Internet fans are more rational than those in the stands or buying billboards.
I have some problems with this
First and formost, the biggest problem remains that a big part of our fanbase is so divided because they feel the need to be armchair GM’s.
Next, the fanbase is so divided over Tebow—-And it is ridiculous, the guy is only ONE player on our TEAM.
But guess what guys, we just have to man up and accept the fact that our team is terrible right now and not Tim Tebow or any other QB alone would be able to consistently produce with all the holes we have. Win now did work with Shanahan, there was a stretch going back to 2005 in which the Broncos were perennial contenders. But those teams had some depth…some of the greatest players in Broncos history were on those teams. We got used to winning so what has happened over the last few years is very unfamiliar territory.
But here we go again an honest post by Tim that makes a lot of sense but makes the same mistake AGAIN. How would you know the FO doesn’t have what it takes? They have been in place for ONE OFFSEASON! Do you talk to Bowlen, Elway, Xanders to hear their long term plans? Elway himself has said it will take 2-3 good drafts to right the ship, guess what? They’ve had one!
I wish most of the fans and including most of the fans on here would do the following:
1) Quit fighting so much over Tebow and talk about him objectively. That would eliminate about 75% of the noise and the problems the fanbase has.
2) Quit trying to be armchair GM’s and armchair Coaches, if we knew better than the guys in charge—-maybe we’d have jobs in the NFL. It is one thing to discuss players, it is another to go off the deep end because we can’t accept the fact that our team is bad and therefore think we know better than the guys in charge.
Whatever, I’m tired of this for right now, its Raiders week and I’ve seen nothing from the main contributors as far as that goes. Maybe that’s step one to fixing the fanbase—-discussing what’s at hand instead of trying to be a psychologist.
by Bronco Mike on Nov 2, 2011 5:54 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
IF we didn't fight about Tebow and we didn't armchair GM....
…..why in the hell would we need to come to Broncos Board to talk about the Broncos? Isn’t that what we are supposed to do as fans? I think the real problem is that far too many fans take the Tebow in-fighting and the armchair GM-ing TOO SERIOUSLY.
For sure
it is management’s job to do whatever is required to excel, those who pay attention to the fans are often sitting with them, if you get my drift
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 7:28 PM MDT up reply actions
It's Wednesday and our team is owned by the Raiders..
I didn’t feel like rehashing that “rivalry” today…I’m sure the rest of the contributors will. :)
Well recent history with a 3 game slide aside
we are actually 13-10 against them since 2000. Actually seems like more of a rivalry huh?
Well Tim time to smack them in the face!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 7:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes. Agree. The last few years we have been spinning our wheels.
No one has the patience to wait, or the balls to make the tough decisions. We need to rebuild. And I mean REALLY rebuild. Like you mentioned, what the chiefs did. They are the model to follow. As painful as it may be (ask the Chiefs fans) it will be worth it in the few years when we are competing again.
..We're 2-14 till we're not!
They say the cool is all over me..
One thing i am getting sick of hearing is trade trade trade from our fans.
Its plain and simple we need to draft better. Sure this is easier said than done but the bottom line is that we need to supplement our current talent with more talent. Shanny and McD both doomed themselves with years of bad drafting. We need to starting drafting BPA style.
Broncos Fan For LIFE!!!!
Hit me up for a game of Madden PS3 username:pAnChoPuNcH
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We had Picks Picks Picks
Look at our team now.
Broncos Fan For LIFE!!!!
Hit me up for a game of Madden PS3 username:pAnChoPuNcH
Follow @JamesTIAmarcos
and you actually need to have something of value that teams will trade for. The only player I wouldnt trade on this team as of right now is Von Miller.
We could not get a first or second round pick for any other player on this team
Management needs to earn my faith, the past has taught me too much.
Exactly
What veterans do we trade?
What does Dumervil warrant with a hefty contract and injury issues as of late?
What does D.J. Williams warrant for a body of work that is unimpressive—-Cecil Lammey has stated that there is no interest for D.J. outside of Dove Valley.
What does Champ warrant—-end of his career and also with a big contract.
What does someone give up for Dawkins?
These are our veterans and they aren’t worth much to the rest of the league. Our offense has 8 starters with 3 full years or less experience. Our defense has a handful of guys that have started as rookies or 2nd year players. Sounds like our team already has a youth movement happening as we speak.
that is true
it just isn’t as exciting as the Panthers’ youth movement, but it’s there
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions
on the flip side...
as a colorado rockies fan i kept hearing and reading this last season that the fans were bad because they actually kept paying to go to games—kind of a ’you’re only encouraging the front office to keep being crappy’ point of view. dang. being a fan can be confusing.
"Well, it's not like we signed him off the street..." — J. Fox
I remember Dan Reeves saying a long time ago saying that Broncos fans had become spoiled but that he was ok with that.
He didn’t mind us being spoiled but where are we now? For years we had one of the greatest QB’s of all time carrying us to victory after victory. It seemed like the Lombardi trophies were just going to keep coming after we won our second one. Now the fanbase is split into overly pessimistic or optimistic camps with few of us holding the realistic middle ground. It took years to dig this hole and it will take years to get out of it. But I doubt this fanbase will accept that and will demand the reset button be pressed again before our latest rebuilding job is complete. There are already people calling for mid-season firings. And the whole painful process starts over again.
As the ancient Tibetan Philosophy states "Don't start none, won't be none!"
Here is a quote that I find appropo to our situatiion:
“Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.” Mike Tyson
This is where we are…we had a plan, we have been punched in the mouth, so we will be rated by what our plan is, and how we react to getting punched in the mouth. I am interested to see how we react in Oakland.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Rocky Balboa once said:
“It doesn’t matter how hard you can hit; but how much you can be punched by the life and continue moving forward” (or something near it, as I just translated from portuguese).
And he is right. We are reacting very bad by what our plan was, and also we (fans) are not being capable to keep moving forward after this punch.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:59 PM MDT up reply actions
Why
Would we do anything the Chiefs have done? couldn’t we try to model ourselves on a good franchise instead.
Who is in first place in the AFC West?
With a division record of 2-1, that would be the Kansas City Chiefs.
It's called arrogance, presumption or high ego.
You need humility in anything you do.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 9:00 PM MDT up reply actions
No matter how broncos fans act or what they do
For years now all trusted that there was competent people doing there best come draft day. Sadly we all know now that was not true. Thats a major part of whats wrong
with this team . Is that the fan bases fault ?
by broncosfaninphilly on Nov 2, 2011 6:18 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
..and now we dont trust anybody...like a beaten dog that has been fooled by a cruel master.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
What about Joe? What about the QB (or lack thereof)?
I felt like the article should have blamed Joe Ellis or Pat Bowlen after reading the comments.
Does anyone know the backstory on Ellis? Where did this guy come from? How did he get to be in Pat Bowlen’s ear?
It seems to me Pat Bowlen was desperate for someone he could trust to help him make decisions. I think he’s a smart business man but he knows little about football so he’s always had to have someone make those decisions for him. I could say that is the problem but has Al Davis really been any better as an owner in the modern era? Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder involve themselves in their teams football decisions. Other owners don’t. If you look at Green Bay or Pittsburgh you see totally different ownership situations in the leagues 2 most successful franchises.
So, what’s the common denominator in all these scenarios where teams have had success? QB, man. Don’t matter who makes what decisions how. You gotta get a QB that can take you to the promise land.
If I’m starting a franchise I’m putting together the best QB training/coaching and scouting teams I can and going from there.
To prove it is NOT the fans. If we were all to become great fans (by any definition) overnight how would that change the situation we’re in now?
Not to say there isn’t any relationship between team and fans and decision making but I think ownership and lack of a QBness are the problems for the Broncos right now.
Way bigger problems than QB man.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Interesting and thought provoking post.
However, I think you are giving the fans far too much credit. I do not believe the fans have that kind of influence. The Raiders endured their collapse because of the decisions of Al Davis, not the clamoring of their fans and if we end up going through a similar down turn it will be for the same reason, the decisions of Pat Bowlen. I hate to even write Bowlen’s name in the same sentence with Davis but if we do collapse in a Raideresque way, then Bowlen will be in the same league.
Never let them see you bleed.
by the_prodigal_fan on Nov 2, 2011 6:32 PM MDT reply actions
Different ownership.
Al Davis never gave a shit about the fans. He was a egomaniac. Pat Bowlen has always been a fan-oriented owner. Just my perspective on that difference.
Everything is relative.
Compared to Davis, Bowlen is certainly fan-oriented. But that doesn’t mean that he gives the fans opinion any particular weight in his decision making process. Davis basically gave his fans the finger on a regular basis. The fact that Bowlen does not just means he is not an ass.
Never let them see you bleed.
by the_prodigal_fan on Nov 2, 2011 7:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Broncos fans
remind me of a used to be rich kid complaining about the used Honda Accord he gets for graduation.
by TheMascotArmy on Nov 2, 2011 6:36 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
Come now, I drive a Honda Accord (used) sometimes
it gets me where I need to go when I use it
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 8:26 PM MDT up reply actions
Besides Tebow.....
….and many would say Orton played himself out of that position, I can’t think of one actual provable example of the FO placating the fans. Joe Ellis is the problem. Bad choices in HC is the problem. Xanders is the problem. The ever revolving DC position is the problem. McCoy is the problem. The terrible job of drafting is the problem. Poor FA decisions is the problem. I truly don’t get how you put this on the fans. You want to follow the Chiefs recipe? I would say we did exactly that by trading Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Gaffney……the difference is the Chiefs didn’t blow the draft picks and trades. The Packers? They are deep because they can draft. We haven’t been able to draft for a decade, how is that on the fans? If it was on the MHR fans, we most certainly would have drafted a DT by now….unless you think the FO mistook DT to mean Daryius Thomas and not Defensive Tackel ;)
"Pain don't hurt" - Swayze (Road House) -- We miss you man!
by bonaire on Nov 2, 2011 6:41 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Fan Base
Look, the fans are not the problem. Maybe part of the current quarterback problem, but not the problem. However, with that said, the fans definately influenced the decision to play Tebow over Orton, even if the Bronco Brass will not admit it. After watching the disaster of the last two weeks it’s obvious Tebow is not even close to being a productive NFL quarterback. I love Tebow. I followed him throughout his college career. No one would like to see him succeed more than myself.
When we traded for Elway, we were getting a very accomplished college pro style quarterback. Elway struggled for 3 years showing signs of brillance on teams with limited talent, kind of like what we have currently. The difference is that Elway was ready to play in the NFL. Had he gone to a more talented team there is no telling what he might have done earlier in his career. The current Broncos have so many issues that go way beyond quarterback, Firing Shanahan, hiring McD, bad drafts, stupid free agent signings, the list goes on and on………….. Had the Broncos gone into the rebuilding mode after Shanny’s departure we would be years ahead of where we are now. The only real solution is to dump some of the best players, stockpile draftpicks, rebuild around a QB. It could be Tebow, but unfortunately, as much as I like him I do not think he is the answer. Nor is Quinn or Orton. I think the QB of the future is somewhere out there still playing college ball.
Disaster? OK...he is 1-1....hardly call it a disaster but lets not let the truth get in the way of exaggeration.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
1-1
Only because Miami is one of the worst teams in the league. But, believe me, I hope he kicks some Raiders you know what this weekend. Miracles can happen as Tebow certainly has the ability to tap into something special.
See...and there is what drives me nuts.....people get on Tebow with excuses why he won, and pile on when he loses....that seems super fair, dont you think? Talk about double standards!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Well I'll be the one to be consistent then
He played poorly in both games, so did the rest of our team.
As I saw positives from him in the Miami game...he played bad, but picked up his game when needed. Very few players have that ability....
GO BRONCOS…I still love this team even thought we are sucking at the moment!
Thanks Mike.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
GO BRONCOS!!!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 8:27 PM MDT up reply actions
Really bookem?
Elway was ready to play? Then why did he go 13 for 34 for 143 yards with 0 TD and 4 interceptions in game 16 which was his 11th start? Geez the historical revisionism around this site has got to stop. Elway sucked way worse than Tebow to start his career. Give the guy a chance.
Oh, you were finished? Oh, well, allow me to retort!
--Jules Winnfield
by GrizBronc on Nov 2, 2011 7:22 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Griz, dont let the facts get in the way of great exaggeration.....it might tarnish the legend of our VP!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
John Bena said it best and here's the difference with Tebow and Elway
Some young quarterbacks have to work on some combination of footwork, motion—which has to do with timing, accuracy—which has to do with timing, decision making, and reading defenses. Elway may have played poorly as a rookie, but it was his decision making and reading defenses that were probably the most unpolished.
Tim has to work on everything. That’s a lot of stuff to improve over the course of 11 games. Maybe he will, maybe he won’t, but as Elway is concerned he was already a passer with a great arm. Tim may have a good arm, but he’s nowhere close to being a passer yet.
Yet, Tebow has intangibles that Elway did not have...regardless...Elway has a chubby for any Pac !2 QB that is coming out next season...he is at Stanford's practice now...
Yet Tebow still has better figures and w/l than some HOFers but clearly sucks.
I wont beat it to death, but their are always excuses why THEY made it, and why Tebow wont…..never will be, nor has it been, an even playing field of evaluation and results…and its the biggest thing that bugs me.
GO BRONCOS!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
by boydy2669 on Nov 2, 2011 7:36 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
That is going pretty damn far from just being an objective view on Tebow
Elway never had the intangibles Tebow had??? Did I miss it where he retired as the all time winning QB with 148 victories? Did I miss it where he retired with the most 4th quarter comebacks of all time with like 47??? John willed his team to victory more times than any other QB in history. Tebow had better intangibles my ass, I’m not saying he had worse but why would you even attempt to prove your point by making THIS comparison? It makes no sense.
No...missed my point....
My whole deal is not to compare Tebow and Elway. Using them as they are 2 players we are familiar with.
Lets take them out of the equation:
Aikman and Manning had tough rookie years yet they were cut some slack as 1st round picks (and thank God as they became great QB’s). Yet, we have had some other QB’s picked early that are not given the same slack.
That was suppose to be my point with Tebow: that he has other intangibles that maybe (and there was spose to be the word maybe above) Elway did not but nothing is said on those.
I just would like to see ALL players given the same equal field of evaluation. That make sense?
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
I agree the comparison isn't the best idea
Elway16 seasons HOF
Tebow 5 games-rookie, not a fair comparison at all career wise.
I just wish Tebow didn’t have so damn much to worry about and work on. But looking back it was a bad draft pick, not because I’m writing Tim off or because I wanted someone different, but because we weren’t a team that was set up to bring him along the way he needs to be brought along. It will take tons of time and optimal circumstances i.e. a better supporting cast and that isn’t something a rebuilding team has…we may have the time if we are patient, but not the talent. To be fair to Elway/Fox, Tebow was not their chosen QB to run a team the way they want it to be run. I am of the opinion that if they want their own guy than so be it, they are the ones with the vision in charge of the team.
I am not only speaking of EFX.....just generally......its a malaise of society I guess......all animals are equal just some are more equal than others....hahahaha
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
I wish I could rec your comment..
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 2, 2011 7:55 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
I can't rec on mobile, atleast not on my phone:(
Stupid phone, shoulda got the iphone lol
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 2, 2011 8:52 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
The Only Decision I Can Recall...
that got made because of fan pressure is the decision to play Tebow. Otherwise, we didn’t pick the players or decide who stays and who goes. I’m not sure I understand blaming this mess on us. So what if we are unrealistic?
For the most part, I doubt EFX responds to fan concerns at all. And that is probably for the best. There is a quote from Terry Francona that goes something like: Guys who manage for the fans end up sitting with them.
I just do not see the fans, who still fill the stadium despite everything that has happened, as the problem in Denver. All of the decisions that matter are above our pay grade.
I can see Russia from my house.
Blaming the fans
Blaming the fans (audience) for your downfall is equivalent to:
a) A politician blaming the voters why he/she was not elected
b) Believing folks do not know “what is good for them”
c) A recording star blaming fans for no longer buying his DVD’s.
d) A golfer blaming the spectators for not shooting a lower score
e) An employer blaming his employees for going bankrupt rather than his own mismanagement of the company
f) A psychiatrist blaming his patients for being depressed
g) A husband blaming TV for putting notions into to his wife’s head and causing her to divorce him
h) A person on a reality TV show blaming the audience for not voting for him or her
i) A parent blaming the lifeguard for his or her child drowning
j) A quarterback being booed by the home team blaming his 50 passer rating on them.
In other words it is never the fan’s, patient’s or customer’s fault. That is a false rationalization. Own up to the truth. You orchestrated your own demise,
Another perspective
You are jaywalking in the middle of a busy thoroughfare and you get run over. Do you blame the driver of the vehicle for not having the foresight to know you would be crossing at that specific point of the road at a specific time at a point where it was not legal or advisable to cross or should you blame yourself for being such an idiot?
And person who blames the Broncos’ fans for the demise of the team is “shooting the messenger”. Sure the fans may bitch, whine, moan and boo but they are only fans. Like the proverbial scorpion, this is what fans do. The old saying in football is coaches coach and players play. In addition fans behave like fans. It is what it is.
by technopeasant on Nov 2, 2011 7:05 PM MDT up reply actions
I think you are oversimplifying things.
How about a husband who is distant and unloving, whose wife then has an affair. The divorce is blamed on the wife, but really the seeds of the divorce were planted by the husband’s failures before the affair.
Response
Yes divorce has many causes but when you put my example in the context of the other 9 examples I think you can see the point I was trying to make.
by technopeasant on Nov 2, 2011 7:17 PM MDT up reply actions
sometimes lifeguards fall asleep.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
I would not go
All the way to say the fans are ruining the franchise. But we certainly are not helping the situation. As a fan you want greatness for your teams and your players. And when you do not get it you have a right to be upset. As a fan you demand greatness. Nobody cheers for there team to lose. We have a right to be upset
Fans fill the seats, buy the merchandise, create the television ratings...
…without the fans there would be no league, no Broncos, no Tim Tebow.
I came to MHR just before the end of the Shanahan era….I have been a life long Bronco fan, climbing aboard about the time Craig Morton put on #7, and now, living in (egad) Oakland, I had to find a place to be with Bronco fans…this felt safe and oddly assuring, though I do suspect that MHR and places like it foment ravenouus fans that demand a lot of their team…do we ask too much?…Yep! Are we easily dissappointed and impatient?….Yep! Are we pretty much always right and never wrong?…well, sometimes! Point is, if we didn’t care….if we did sit idly by and await better days, then we would cease to be fans…I live in a football town with TWO fan bases…Niners and Raiders…and I can assure you that the lean times that have gone on here have also been angst ridden, with ownership questioned, coaches fired (by the handful) and though there is the sense that the wandering in the wilderness may be over, NO ONE is taking it for granted…Niner fans in particular are waiting for the other shoe to drop (each day Aaron Rodgers outplays Alex Smith is a reminder of an idiot coach who tried to out think himself…fail)…Raider fans always seem to think they are one player away the Super Bowl, so it is hard to count them as rational, but the hand wringing, the “what-ifs” and the bickering among the fan base about what to do seems universal.
We complain because we care. We urge change because we care. And in the end we write posts and comments on posts because we care. In the end, we do not actually have ANY clout other than to stop going to games or watching them on TV or buying player jerseys..and trust me, if that did happen, that would get their attention in a hurry….and in some sense it does happen…the 49ers had sold out Candlestick for seemingly decades….at least from the early ’80s until about 5 years ago…in the end, a woeful team and high prices made season ticket holders give up their long held seats, and eventually, the waiting list was exhausted until there were actually individual game tickets available…the ticket office had to work to sell tickets, create package deals to entice fans, and in general the excitement was gone…all of this was magnified in Oakland, where tough economic times and an owner bent on screwing the fan base whenever possible was at work…black outs were the norm….the threat of relocation always percolates on the back burner…a rabid fan base no doubt…but shrinking…always shrinking…
Does something along these lines await the Broncos? Could their streak of sellouts be in jeopardy in the future? Will the waiting list be eliminated? The answer of course, is yes. So it is the owner’s job to satisfy the fan base…when the team is rebuilding, keep it interesting…give us a reason to be hopeful…make the team entertaining and always improving…make the game experience fun…in some sense, though I am an avvowed Tebow skeptic, he was like a gift to the ownership….we get angry when the national media and pundits rip the team and Tebow, but if Tebow were not on the squad, I daresay they would not mention us at all…we would be irrelevant. Tebow buys them a season of interest, but if he does not pan out, after giving him a chance (at it surely appears he may not), then they better have a plan in place to keep us interested next year…and that plan should not be the mantra of the last few years where we are constantly cleaning house…do it once, fine…keep doing it and we are rudderless…we are clsoe to that point just now…regardless of the history, this franchise began to decline when Shanahan was fired, though I suspect it was time for him to go, the events after that continnued the downward spiral…hiring an inexperienced coach and giving him too much power, oops…get rid of a talented, albeit problematic quarterback…and squander the value we got in trade…oops…one bad draft, maybe two bad drafts…and we are where we are…beginning the wander at the edge of wilderness…will we find our way? I dunno….but it is not the fans….we might complain, but in the end, the ownership and the front office, as well as the coaches, and the players, have all the control that matters….until we stop paying attention….then we will to blame, but it will be their fault…
What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?
by Hugo Norton on Nov 2, 2011 7:15 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Not so sure...
About this post. I have been a Broncos fan since the 70s. The expectation to win it all and the want to be successful has been around since then. Fans were just as harsh and demanding and everything else in the 70s, 80s, 90s as they are now-it’s just that media is more evasive and faster. What we have now is a frustrated fan base becasue we havent won. People want to say the problem is far bigger than the QB position-but not really. We made one Superbowl with out Elway and none since him. QB play is all the difference. Look at the Colts-11-5 with Manning, o fer without. I am not saying we have tons of talent, but we have enough to be competitive if we had an elite QB. If we are winning, no one would be compaining about the fans. I am still expecting us to go 9-0 the rest of this season . If we had an elite QB we win against Oakland and Tennessee and are at 4-3 right now and in a 4 way tie for first place.
I also take issue with the Chiefs comparison. They were 10-6 last year and went nowhere in the playoffs. This year they started 0-3 (3 blowouts) and were 1 blowout away from Todd Haley being fired. It is too soon to say their rebuilding idea has worked. The truth is we need to keep infusing talent-not blame the fans for expecting a winner. Why watch then?
The bottom line is we need to find our franchise QB and in my opinion Tebow is not it. We need another good draft, franchise QB, and a good free agent acquisition here and there and were back in the mix…or does that optimism make me a bad fan?
I could go on but my point is made…
GO BRONCOS!
by BroncoJeff on Nov 2, 2011 7:29 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
10 weeks from now we will know a lot more...I agree on your point regarding the media.
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
GO BRONCOS
that’s all I’ve got, loyal to the bitter end, propitious times are on the way soon
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 8:32 PM MDT up reply actions
This blog posting is complete and utter bullsh*t.
I’m sorry, don’t want to hurt your feelings here….
But, its very simple. WIN SOME FREAKING GAMES.
Watch how much better everything will get.
Its not the FANS. How moronic is that, really??
This team needs to win games. Period.
Ditto
Exactly.
Blaming the fans is akin to Custer blaming his troops for losing at Little Big Horn rather than himself for employing such idiotic military strategy.
by technopeasant on Nov 2, 2011 7:51 PM MDT up reply actions
I liked learning about Custer
in elementary because it reminded me of custard which is one of my favorite desserts
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 8:33 PM MDT up reply actions
not so sure
i wouldn’t have thought we fans had much power until mr. b let mcd go mid-season. i thought that pretty much demonstrated the broncos listen to and react more to fan opinion than i ever would have guessed. we’re part of the franchise, it’s ridiculous not to acknowledge this. no us, no fans, no butts in seats or luxury boxes filled, no jerseys sold, no tv revenue … if there were no fans the nfl would be just another rec league with a bunch of jocks still running around on sundays and wondering what the hell to do with their lives, wearing mis-matched uniforms, with weekend coaches and volunteer refs. the broncos exist because we care. no kidding they cater to us, at least in part. low scoring, defensive games too boring for the highlight reels? let’s change the rules on contact with receivers down the field. qbs sexy? don’t let anyone touch them. ever. and if the howling mob screams for blood, or in this case, the end of tebow’s career, well, they just might give it to us. this isn’t the complete picture, of course. but i think there’s some truth to it. franchises, in part, reflect their fan bases. if we don’t like what we’re seeing — then quit acting like what we see.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
and one more thing, sorry to perseverate
bit i think it’s too simple to say ‘fans are fans.’ there are big differences in fan bases, in teams and cities. i’ve been to arrowhead — in orange and blue and (yikes!) those guys were pretty cool. knowledgeable, funny, good sports. i’ve been to qualcomm; not a bad experience, but completely different, not really football the way i know it. i haven’t been to the black hole. i’m biased. i don’t want to go to the black hole. four teams, four cities, four cultures — all distinct. the relationship between a franchise and its fanbase may be unequal, but it’s not one way.
"I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different."
— Kurt Vonnegut
This one has me scratching my head
Tim, I love your posts and always look forward to reading your pieces. But I respectfully disagree with this on several fundamental levels.
- I agree that fans’ expectations need to be adjusted at this point, but I certainly don’t think this is the main problem. Or even a significant part of the problem. Yes, we demand excellence every year, and of course we always think we’re on the cusp of greatness. Don’t fans of every team in every sport carry that belief and hope at the start of every year? Why is that a bad thing? I feel that way about the Nuggets, the Avs and the Rockies every single season. My friend in NY is always sure the Giants are going to win it all, while my buddy from KC has talked about going to the Super Bowl every year I’ve known him. I don’t see this as a “fault” of being a fan or contributing to a problem. I just see it as being a fan. We want to win all the time, and we make those feelings known, and we as fans are an impatient bunch who don’t want to see it take 2-3 years to be competitive. But I’m not sure how that’s different than anywhere else. And more to the point, I don’t know how expressing that displeasure has led to the Broncos current problems.
- To add to that thought, let me just say that I don’t think our fan base is that much different from hardcore fans of any team. Everyone who stinks up a few games is a “bum” and should be traded or benched. The QB is to blame for everything. The play-calling is horrendous. The coaches should be fired. These are complaints lodged very loudly in every NFL city around the country every time a team loses more than a handful of games. Yes, we are particularly choosy in our QBs. But we haven’t had a true superstar since Elway, and NOT ONE of the signal callers we traded/cut has gone on to a Super Bowl. Fact is, none of them have been that great (the jury is still out on Cutler, though most people wanted him here in Denver). So our impatience has been justified.
My point is, I get upset at the fans too, and I do think in some cases we don’t have much patience. But I just think that’s the nature of everything these days. The fans in K.C. were pissed at many of the moves the FO made in rebuilding the team, and they made it known. Fans in Oakland booed Boller two weeks ago after an interception and started calling for Palmer. Miami fans booed Henne. Ravens fans just booed Flacco. And then there’s Tony Romo. Fans are fickle, and we are no different. We all want greatness. I also can’t think of how our impatience has affected any decision the FO or coach has made.
- I’d be interested to hear some examples of moves the FO/Broncos made that you think were heavily influenced by the fans. I can’t really recall any, unless it was the move to start Tebow. But I’m not even convinced that was the case. If anything, a majority of the fans (me included) were calling for the Broncos to make Tebow No. 1 in training camp, preseason and the first four games. Remember when everyone was saying John Fox doesn’t listen to the fans?
Fans certainly didn’t applaud the moves made when Josh McDaniels was here. The firestorm over the trading of Cutler, Hillis and Marshall was unreal. Those moves were made without any regards whatsoever to the fans. Fans also don’t have any say in draft picks, so I’m not sure how that can be attributed to anything other than FO ineptitude.
And as far as “embracing” Josh McD goes (as you mentioned in a reply), of course we as fans would embrace him. He represented a fresh start and brought hope. Remember, he started 6-0, which won us over at first. By the second season, he was reviled. It’s a no-win situation as a fan. If you support someone even when times get tough and then the person proves to be a bust, you’re criticized for drinking the Kool-Aid. If you’re critical right off the bat and then the person proves to be a stud, you lack patience. Contrary to popular belief, I think most of the fans’ opinions on things have been more or less spot on.
- You bring up how K.C. traded away its good players and completely blew up the team, and insinuated that we wouldn’t let the same happen here. Didn’t we already go through this? Yes, it was mismanaged, as McD bungled everything he touched. But we did indeed stroll down this path, except it didn’t turn out like it did for the Chiefs. We traded away virtually our entire offense. This is what we have to show for it. You might be right in the need to go this route again. But to say the fans wouldn’t tolerate such a move is inaccurate – we already have!
I actually think our fan base is better, more knowledgeable and supportive than people give us credit for. Yes, we are constantly calling for changes and second-guessing decisions, and fans give players a short leash (which i don’t agree with at all). But in the world of sports, fans vote with their dollars and eyeballs, and the fact we still sell out home games – even after a decade of futility – and have high TV ratings is a testament to the passion. We have been patient as fans. It’s been a long time since we were good. We should demand change, over and over again until we get it right. Didn’t we enter an Oakland-like skid years ago? I can barely remember the last time we played in January, let alone won. But we’re still here, arguing, cheering, grimacing, high-fiving and commenting. I’d much rather be part of a rabid, impatient fan base than one that doesn’t really care even if the team is good (see San Diego). This isn’t meant to be a defense of fans, because I know it wasn’t your intent to disparage them. It’s simply my thoughts on why the fans are not to blame for the current mess.
Thanks for reading.
by Irishrep on Nov 2, 2011 7:56 PM MDT reply actions 3 recs
I appreciate your sentiments.
I felt the need to share what I was thinking about. I felt this was my best work of the year, but I knew it wouldn’t go over well. lol
Dude...its led to a ton of discussion...thats the clue to a good article.....can appreciate the article even if you dont agree with it.....I enjoyed it!
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
A good topic regardless of where you stand...
I don’t totally agree with the premise, but I love the energy brought on by a spirited debate…when a team goes through a protracted rough patch, as it appears the Broncos will, there is probably repsonsibility, if not blame, to go around broadly…in a sense, the fan’s impatience causes the ownership, etc. to act hastily, sometimes ditching one direction before letting it fully develop…who knows, maybe McDaniels, if left to his devices for 4 or 5 seasons would eventually get it right (even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again, no?)…should we give Tebow 3 or 4 seasons to develop? (The Niners have given Alex Smith like 6 seasons to develop, with little to show for it until this season—-but it cost several coaches/ass’t coaches their jobs—-the patience shown in Smith was not by design)…we all come at this from different angles but it is a great read, as are the comments that follow…
What if you don't know Jack....but Jack knows you?
Glad you wrote it
It’s a great discussion, and it’s one that crossed my mind before as well. I just came to a different conclusion than you did. (Btw, in full disclosure, I think we should give Tebow through 2012 to prove himself, so I am a long-term thinker…and therefore I do have a lot of issues with how fans overreact in this town).
Reply fail
This should be to Tim’s last comment under my initial post.
Is it just me or is this just a beautiful view with 20/20 hindsight? You are assuming that the disposal of Jared Allen (still a beast) and Tony Gonzalez (still a beast) made the franchise better.
While I love the debate this opens up, I think the people who are anti-Tebow(as a player) are being just as knee jerk as the people who are pro-Tebow. I believe there is nothing wrong with letting the kid flounder his way through the rest of the season. If it works…Yaaay! If it doesn’t, would we be any better by starting Orton or Quinn who won;t be here next year?
Also, trading Elvis I could beal with IF and a very HUGE IF, we get a first-rounder. We traded Brandon Lloyd for beans. I know he was gone, but I still want someone to rate the value of a 5-6th round pick against having a receiver who can give our potential future QB much needed confidence. I think Lloyd could be invaluable now. At the moment we have too many offensive players who are all trying to learn on the fly and gel together.
by Chris Howerton on Nov 2, 2011 8:27 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
What an insight huh, Tim!?
I think tou absolutely right. The question is: how much us fan have the power to interfere on the franchise to destroy it?
And, still thinking about it, it’s an enormous paradigm for me. I still can’t conceive how the KC got rid of Allen for example. I guess I learned pretty well this loyalty stuff. It’s a pain in my heart imagine to trade any GOOD player wearing a Bronco jersey. “Oh Champ has lost a step? I don’t care… he made so much for my franchise”. I’d know trading BLoyd was the correct move, but deep in my brains that thought is hammers “oh, he had a so amazing year… he made so much for us that I can’t even imagine our year without him, it would had been a 0-16 perhaps”.
Anyway, you gave me a ton of reasoning to do with myself. I know you are absolutely right, but it’s so hard to move on and change it! I’m sure that I’m not an exception and all our fanbase must have a problem to break this paradigm.
I still also would like to realize how much us fans are able to hurt the organization with this vicious behaviour we have. Do you have a shot about it? Does anybody have?
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
Just one more add
Elvis Dumervil is still not 100% ready to play his football that lead the NFL in sacks… but even with NO SACKS so far this season, just reading a thought of trading him makes all my bones shake…. and the sad part is that I know this would be a correct move. It’s soooo hard to move on and let it go.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 8:38 PM MDT up reply actions
Monday nights game at Arrowhead
Did anyone else notice the similarities between the Chiefs and the Broncos. Good opening drive then a bunch of 3 and outs. San Diego begged the Chiefs to put them out of their misery early…but no, the Chiefs were awful. If it weren’t for the turnovers and gross stupidity, San Diego would have killed them. Through it all, the ineptness, the turnovers, the bumbling…the crowd was crazy. They never stopped regardless of the ineptness on the field. I thought, remember times when it was like that in Denver. No more. The fans are no where near the KC fans. Frankly they only respond if there is something exceedingly good or bad on the field. The fans of Denver have lost their mojo. There is not much for players to feed off. Too bad. I do know that the past 10 years have eroded my enthusiasm as well. How can it not. Never thought I would be part of the new Lions. Oh well, ski season starts soon!
I rewatched it
precisely what I was thinking, their coach is still a tool though
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 2, 2011 8:51 PM MDT up reply actions
The energy sucked at mile high
every time I tried to get loud for the defense in the 1st half, I got all these looks like I was a f***in dumbass. So I got quiet.
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
That's something that can hurt our team...
I could never attend any game of the Broncos, and I wish I can change it soon, but reading your comment makes me really bored, Calikula.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 2, 2011 9:05 PM MDT up reply actions
And thats sad
how much you love our team, a world away, and we have fans here booing the home team, and acting hostile towards fans that are trying to have a good time. I saw 2 fans in steeler gear, and all I thought was, such a waste of 2 tickets. Why show up to a game that your team isn’t even playing at? Douches
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
I really care much less about the 2 Steelers prestige our game,
than our own fans not chering and supporting our team. And looking for you as an ET because you was doing that =\
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 12:14 AM MDT up reply actions
Steelers jackasses
are everywhere, it makes me hate the franchise more. Class, eh? Other than the fact your signal-caller is a rapist
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 10:51 AM MDT up reply actions
Reply Fail #2
Where do you sit? I’m in 541, and it was pretty quiet there unless the ball was in the red zone on that side of the field. We were some of the only people clapping and cheering the entire time. I felt like a dumbass as well. That’s what has changed in the past decade of futility. People do seem bored. (I always have a good time, as I always believe we’ll mount a comeback. And if not, at least I have beer).
I was in 133 row 36 seat 11
bought the Tix online exchange for 130 bones. I had a lot more fun at the season opener, I couldnt speak for, no joke, 2 days after that. I’ll tell you though, if the crowd is gonna be like that, then I dont think I’ll fork over that kinda cash for awhile until the Broncos start winning and people will cheer loudly the whole game. Til then I dont want to deal with the hostile looks for trying to cheer for the hometeam, for crying out loud
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Dude, you shouldn't be embarrassed for cheering...
they should for not cheering, and you should tell them as much
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:19 PM MDT up reply actions
It wouldnt have helped any. I was hungover, and didnt feel like getting into a fight
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Ya, but sometimes you gotta fight
for your right to party
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:25 PM MDT up reply actions
haha well played sir
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
One more side note
I didnt cheer at all the 2nd half, was too depressed too. And I dont blame the crowd for that, the game was out of hand and the Broncos were getting eaten alive. But thats no excuse for the lack of energy in the 1st half
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
See comment below..
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 2, 2011 9:34 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Side note
For the season opener I sat in the super-duper nose bleeds, 519 very last row. But the crowd was awesome right there, if they woulda came away with a W, that would have made my first game perfect
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
I tried to cheer you up in another thread...gave you a pep talk and all
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 2, 2011 9:31 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
haha thanks Tusc
but Im still depressed :(
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Boo:(
puppies and unicorns?
You atleast cracked a smile just then,i know it..don’t lie…who doesn’t smile at pups and unicorns;)
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 2, 2011 9:48 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
haha, got me :)
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
I knew it!!
Seriously though, things won’t be this way forever..i know believing or faith is hard right now, but things change, nothing stays the same forever, it can’t..for example, I have a sunburn, but in a few days it will be a tan..so right now our tam is sunburnt, but on sunday they will be a tan..see?…turn that frown upside down ..
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 2, 2011 9:58 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Tam means team ffs..
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 2, 2011 9:59 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, things will turn around someday...
but not this year, maybe in 2 years
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
:(
So do you have any hope for this game at all this weekend?
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 3, 2011 8:11 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
About a 10% chance the way they've been playing
especially that Defense from last game. Good thing we dont have to worry about an aerial game this weekend
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Well that's something!
Hopefully this weekend they will be able to ease your mind..tebow will suddenly become “tebow” again, and our D is still pissed from last week and we will take our frustration out on the raiders:)….are you watching the game?
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 3, 2011 8:58 AM MDT via mobile up reply actions
No, I have to work :(
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
That sucks!maybe u can get it on radio?
If u have a smart phone get the iheart radio app, and stream 850 koa…that’s what I gotta do
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 3, 2011 12:34 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
The radio doesnt get 850 koa, and I dont have a smart phone
so I’ll just have to grin and bear it :)
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Haha omg! I tried;)
Do have a computer?
Well guess its not the worst thing, hopefully when you come to read the comments on here afterwards, they will be more promising..
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 3, 2011 2:10 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
yes hopefully
I would like to at least hear that it was competitive, not a blow out like the last game
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
We might even win!
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 3, 2011 2:39 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Well I am giving it that 10%…
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Fair enough..
Do you know what you got into? Can you handle what he's about to do? Tebow is about to make it rough for you...I bet you thought that he was soft and sweet. Thought angel swept you off your feet? Tebow is about to turn up the heat...
Dont trip off the glitz that I'm gonna display..
by Tuscani on Nov 3, 2011 7:16 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Totally Agree
Absolutely I remember when Denver was one of the most hostile environments in the NFL. Where’s the MILE HIGH THUNDER!!!!
by JesseJohnBurr on Nov 2, 2011 11:52 PM MDT up reply actions
Where do you sit?
I’m in 541, and it was pretty quiet there unless the ball was in the red zone on that side of the field. We were some of the only people clapping and cheering the entire time. I felt like a dumbass as well. That’s what has changed in the past decade of futility. People do seem bored. (I always have a good time, as I always believe we’ll mount a comeback. And if not, at least I have beer).
I think we should have a stable
and accountable FO and a solid group of coaches. If we are going to be changing our coaches every year as we have been then it doesn’t really matter what we do. Every new coach will just dismantle what the previous coaches have done and will jetison the previous players because “there were not thier guys”.
so in my optinion, until we get some continuity in the FO and an Identity for this team we are going to keep feeding from the bottom of the tank.
If and when we get us some good coaches and an Identity for this team then they can do what ever they want to so we can get this franchise back on its feet and start playing some football.
Until then I am getting settled in to watching football with no expectations because I don’t even know what this team wants to be….
And I voted NO. The fan base hasn’t destroyed this franchise…. that is the full responsibility of the Owner and FO….They are in control from the top down…PERIOD….
Really can’t blame any of the weak links on this team because the fans are tired of watching them….They were picked and coached by the FO and Coaches….
Our team is the product of the FO and Coaches…..Fix that and the majority of the problem is solved……
ABSOULUTELY AND BRAVO!!
For once I whole-heartedly agree with a MHR article.
And it was Tim that wrote it..
even more amazing.. good job Tim.
If thats the case you probably shouldnt be around
One fish, two fish, red fish, DOOM fish.
by Trapped in O.C. on Nov 2, 2011 9:17 PM MDT up reply actions
Funnel this thought down even more
and you will see that this whole downward spiral started the day John Elway announced his retirement. This organization hasn’t been the same since he left.
We as fans were spoiled by 16 years of watching what I consider the best QB in the HISTORY of the game. We demanded that level of excellence in the absence of talent. How do you replace the leadership, fire, and desire that was John Elway. He was the face, of this organization, class act even in the face of adversity. The heart and fire that defined Bronco Football. How do you replace something like that? The answer is you dont.
I was a firm believer that the year after Elway retired we should have blown the whole thing up and started rebuilding then.. Rebuilt with an entirely new identity. I believe this would have really lessened the “Elway Hangover”. Of course this did not happen and personally I feel we are still experiencing it over a decade later.
Now that Elway is back, its happening, and the timing of this couldn’t be worse. New coach, new Front Office and the Lock Out.. The high expectations put on John Fox and the Front office to “save” the franchise from its worst season in it history. And not having an off season to do so. And it seems the longer we had to wait to actually see what kind of team we had, increased our expectation that much more. The lock out had a major impact on how the fans felt. Putting us on edge and setting our expectations even higher than usual. I mean how dare they threaten to cancel football squabbling over money. Money we are putting in their pockets. They better give me something to cheer about.
And to answer your question…. Do I think the fans are destroying this organization? NO, The only thing I feel that is being destroyed is the unfounded expectations that we as fans have for this organization. We have been in denial for over a decade and the cold hard reality is starting to set in. Rebuilding is never fun. Now you know why the FO avoided using that exact phrase until they could no longer hide the fact. Now is the the truest test of being a fan. Through the best of times, through the worst of times.
".....Im the waiting beast....Im the twisted nerve..."
by Disturbed70 on Nov 2, 2011 9:54 PM MDT reply actions 5 recs
+1
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 12:17 AM MDT up reply actions
Well said. Green this...
..We're 2-14 till we're not!
They say the cool is all over me..
Good post...
about replacing Elway, see Packers, Green Bay.
See also
The Indianapolis Colts, they are getting their first does of life with out Peyton Manning.
".....Im the waiting beast....Im the twisted nerve..."
*dose not does :)
".....Im the waiting beast....Im the twisted nerve..."
Fan's Did Not...
Hire McD and set him up to fail. Perhaps McD could have been a fine head coach (open question). When Shanahan was fired (I liked him, but it was time for him to go), Bowlen said things would be done differently, but they were not. No strong GM was hired and McD was left to fill the vacuum – and McD was clearly not ready to fill both the roles of head coach and GM decision maker. That’s on Bowlen!
Draft all the poor draft picks in 2009 and 2010, when we had EIGHT picks in the first two rounds.
Sign all the worthless free agents.
It is not the fan’s fault. Your article actually covers the primary problem – it’s PAT BOWLEN (in combination with Joe Ellis, but the buck stops at the owner). Your article contains the truth, but your title and conclusion are wrong.
Cohiker...
I talked about this point above, so i’m just pasting in case of you want us to develop all this reasoning:
Nobody of us did it. Anything of what you pointed. Period.
But we all are creating such a vicious enviroment at Dove Valley, and that for sure affects the team. That’s all simple: we want the new Elway (the new messias) to come again and win another(s) Super Bowl(s). But the most part of us, me included, can’t wait and have patience to let it happen. We just keep chanting for WIN NOW and damaging our team instead of supporting.
Could you imagine if Doom had been placed on the trading block 2 weeks ago, what a complete pandemonium we fans would have created??? We would never understand this move, but it may makes sense for a long-term solution to start winning games.
We are passionate fans, but sometimes we boo so much every decision that we disturb everything. At I think this was the point of Tim on this post, which I agree entirely althought I still can’t break my own paradigm of the wins.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 12:19 AM MDT up reply actions
fans are fans
don’t mean to be a Yogi Berra, but fans want to win – some are more patient than others – fans are not the problem. I’m one who has patience, especially if I see signs of progress. However, I could write pages on the personnel mistakes made in the past three years (just one non-obvious example) – I stated here in MHR immediately after Doom was signed to that huge.extension, that it was a mistake, that he was not worth that much money – not even close – and got lots of criticism here. Now some are suggesting we trade Doom – but he would be worth little, IF ANYTHING, because he is not worth that contract – why would anyone give us more than a 7th round pick (maybe a 6th if someone overvalues him).
The problem is Bowlen/Ellis. They have screwed up the team, so fans are not happy – and I see Bowlen/Ellis continueing to make shortsighted decisions to appease fans rather than addressing our personnel weakness by hiring a proven strong GM. Instead, they hired a celebrity (Elway). I love Elway – and now that he is here, I hope he is successful, but he was not hired for his talent and expertise in NFL personnel evaluation – and what we need is a strong talent decision maker – who will make the best decisions for the long run.
Elway is much more
than a “celebrity” hire. The man knows football. The man knows talent. His arena team won championships. I know “arena” is not the NFL but with it being his first stint as owner/GM, it was extremely successful. And since he has been in the FO he has stressed that the Organization do things “the right way” by building via the draft and bringing in young talent. Now to say whether or not his first draft was “successful” is premature at best. But I personally will put my trust in him. His reputation, his career and his resume were impeccable, and are more than enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt.
".....Im the waiting beast....Im the twisted nerve..."
I think we are talking the same, in diferent words...
and I see Bowlen/Ellis continueing to make shortsighted decisions to appease fans rather than addressing our personnel weakness
That’s it! I agree… and it’s wrong. And I think this was Tim’s point on this article. If we didn’t make Dove Valley in a chaos about every decision, they would be much more confident about running this franchise thinking about the future and not thinking about to appease us. Having a front-office that listen to the fans is a bless, but also a curse.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 11:01 AM MDT up reply actions
I've been advocating this since the first of the year...
We gave Dumervil a mega contract and all of a sudden he’’s hurt everywhere…DJ the same thing and we got sound play in Woodyard when he was out with the elbow…Trade them while the tradings good or else we’ll always be mediocre…
I was always against, for example, to trade DJ
Now I can figure how you and other friends here were right. Now it’s the time of taking some value, some picks, some youthness and etc of our exependable and old players.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 3, 2011 12:22 AM MDT up reply actions
I totally agree the staff needs to eat crow...
Tim is the kind of player you can build a team around. I hate the rebuild phase but lets face if we don’t start now we have the potential of become the next 0-16 team. I also agree that we need to go young so the guys can build their own identity as a team. Please Jonh and Jon do what needs to be done and just face the music.
nah, it's not that bad
The article seems to come from a very dark place. Personally, I don’t mind that. But how is it a “team without collective desire”?
Furthermore, haven’t we just been through a “blowing the team up” episode via the McDaniel’s approach?
The 2011 Denver Broncos play honest football, win or lose. I think the direction the team has now is as good a chance as anything at succeeding in getting the Broncos out of perennial cellar dweller status as fast as is reasonably possible.
McD was a terrible GM.
There is a difference between blowing up a team with a good GM and a bad one. I think Elway might actually have some skills in the GM department (Xanders, sure…)
And a worse HC. Double whammy.
Seeing DT run a half-assed route only to see Tebow throw the ball 8 yards out of bounds knowing both guys were players McJedi traded UP for in round 1? And this draft received praise?
As Shaggy would day, "Zoinks!
X > Tim Tebow
How could you express anything less than supremely confident optimism about these replacements to pro-bowlers Cutler and Marshall? And wasn’t DT touted as a Supreme Being amongst wide-receivers: perfect, polished, and flawless?
(In other words, to my mind the draft-time criticisms of the athletic-but-very-raw BeyBey are similar to the draft day criticisms of Franklin’s pass-blocking. Fans can choose to buy into hype and leave their reasoning minds behind… but as a fan I prefer not to set myself up for disappointment if I can help it.)
by cosBroncosFan on Nov 3, 2011 9:44 AM MDT up reply actions
You and me both.
Look, I don’t miss Cutler and I really don’t miss Marshall. BM has been a huge disappointment in Miami. I admit I misevaluated them both.
But that does open my eyes to the problems with our current roster.
No prospect is perfect by Josh took some crazy ass flyers on his draft picks (at least they all had super-duper character, like finger-bang BeyBey). When Xanders took those same flyers on Franklin and Irving, I wasn’t too impressed. Hopefully they start to pick it up (with the rest of the rookies) and turn the class into a home run.
But it would appear to me at this stage that this 2011 rookie crop will have us back to 6-10, not 10-6. The 2009 draft was a 0-16 effort and the 2010 draft looks more like 4-12.
I’d give my left foot for a draft class with two impactful players that are mid round picks.
X > Tim Tebow
Chasing after a good GM to make perfect decisions (as well as executing a perfect explosion) is a lot more problematic than it sounds, and almost certainly means buying into someone’s hype for creating seemingly perfect results somewhere else in the recent past. Personally I’m leery of anything that smacks of change for the sake of change — so I’m not easily persuaded.
by cosBroncosFan on Nov 3, 2011 9:53 AM MDT up reply actions
I said last year that I would take three or four years of bad bad Broncos play if it meant that they had ten years of success and superbowl runs.
My non-sports following G/F put it very well when she said – “Its just the Broncos turn to suck”. See this is why the NFL is great, its very rare that a team can stay competitive every single year for more than a decade. The Colts and the Patriots were lucky (?) in that they ended up with Manning and Brady but before them and probably after them – what do you think they will be like???
Give me the NFL any day over the English Premier League where out of the 20 teams in the top division, only three have a chance of winning of the title this year. And the same three last year, and the same three next year, and the same three the year after and unless some multi billionaire comes in and throws money at a team it will continue ad infinitum. You have 17 of the 20 teams who go into the season knowing that the best that they can EVER get is finishing in the upper half of the division.
money is the root of all evil
You bring up a point that ultimately led me away from MLB. When money controls the success of a franchise, the patient is very sick. When cities like KC or Pittsburg cannot compete and become farm teams to the larger market teams, somethng is very wrong. Why were the Yankees and Dodgers so successful before the mid 70’s. They had the best farm system. Many believed the AAA Yankee team of the 50’s could beat about a third of the major league teams. When Branch Rickey came to the Dodgers in the 40’s, he built up the farm system that sustained success for 3 decades. When the St. Louis Browns, the pathetic team of the 40’s and early 50’s, moved to Baltimore, the Oriole way and a great farm system was built that sustained a very good organization from the early 60’s to the mid 80’s.
At least with the salary cap, the NFL can create a more level playing field where front office philosophy and decisions can turn a club around, even after sustained years of dismal results. However, there are no shortcuts, no quick fixes and patience must be exersized by the organization and the fan base
numb to losing
if Tebow KEEPS playing we will become numb to losing. Orton too
If you are right...
The fact you have written an article that says the fan base has the power to trigger the demise of the Broncos implies great support or non support of the fan, whichever way you want to look at it. In the up and down process of being good or bad, it does take time to rebuild or try to rebuild into a contender. Many teams try and fail and fail and fail for years, before winning. While I believe passionate fans can have slight influence on the front office, it is a very weak front office that allows the fans to control their actions, and I don’t think the Broncos front office is so weak that it lets the fans voices rule any of their decisions. Terry Francona has said if you listen to the fans you will be a fan, very soon. I think the same of any sport. If you are right and the fans are responsible because the team’s decisions are based on fans’ voices, the team’s at fault. Period. In that case, the entire Bronco organization should be sold to new blood and start over. This isn’t politics. We don’t vote for an owner or a gm. It’s their team entirely, and the fan base, as arrogantly supreme and possessive a group we are, have no power what so ever in the hierarchy of Denver Broncos football, and if the fans can influence that hierarchy as heavily as you believe, we can never win with such weak leadership on the Broncos. This isn’t a democracy, it’s the NFL. It’s much closer to military rule than electoral based politics. They do what they do, and we pay and watch. If they fail, which is ultimately based on winning or losing, we can choose to vent our frustration in any manner we like, and ultimately, choose not to support a team of weak and losing leadership. You are basically saying the Broncos are so weak up front, that they break a cardinal rule of running a pro sports franchise, by having their professional opinions controlled by their peanut gallery fan base.
...holy freaking f*ck, snakes!
I can’t agree with you, don’t blame it on the fans. Leadership must lead. I would equate this to Congress not balancing a budget. It takes courage to make unpopular decisions to get an organization or a nation to the right place. When one compromises on making the right choice, it delays the inevitable and many times takes one to an even more difficult situation with even fewer opportunities to turn the ship around. When deciding how to operate a football team is influenced by trying to please the populace, sometimes influenced by trying to keep your job, you get sustained mediocrity at best, usually sustained poor performance. See the US economy.
Now to your point about the fans. The Denver fans are not what they used to be – like the ones of great character in difficult circumstances of the 60’s and early 70’s. We are a microcosm of our nation as a whole. We are not willing to accept that hard choices and sacrifice must be made to take the shortest path to success. We want no or minimal pain to make the transition. Sometimes you have to hit bottom first - Saints, Lions, Cardinals, Colts before Manning, Never blame just the fans when the more culpable group is the management group. We are just the shareholders with worthless stock.
Remember fans have no affect on the outcome of the game
sure a false start here and there can be contributed to 70,000 drunks screaming. Other than that we have no affect on the game. We cheer and wear jerseys blah blah blah, other than that we have no affect on the game.
A baseball park is the one place where a man's wife doesn't mind his getting excited over somebody else's curves
I must say, after months of Orton/Tebow debates...it felt good to read through a rarely see either's name.
Loved this debate folks!
then after this season it'll shift to Barkley/Luck debates!
Elway was trolling yet again the Stanford practice last night…
MOZGOD Member #35
I have a gut feeling we'll giving away all our draft picks plus a couple of players for Andrew Luck...
Elway always seen at Stanford’s games and practices, I think he’s willing to give up A LOT for Luck. He’s going to stake his reputation on Luck
MOZGOD Member #35
With as many holes as this team has
that would set us back for a decade. I would rather take one of the other guys and continue the rebuild, then blow the building up and start from nothing. We would in essence be an expansion team
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Oh I know
But look for this offseason for the Broncos to start trading away contributors to stockpile picks…
Everyone will be available as long as their first name isn’t Von.
MOZGOD Member #35
and thats also if the #1 pick is even for sale. I doubt Miami would trade it, with their hunt for someone to fill Marino’s shoes
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
I dunno, taking Barkley/Jones instaed and having 12 extra picks to rebuild your shitty team
I would take that in a heartbeat if I was a GM… It is interesting to note how some criticism of Luck is starting to come out now (Arm strength isn’t as advertised).
MOZGOD Member #35
I should also say that I believe Barkley would give us 98% of Luck's QB skills
For a super fraction of the price it would cost the Broncos….
MOZGOD Member #35
Im on board with that
if he falls into our lap, so be it. But lets not give everything away for just one player
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
Zappa...
Well written piece. Interesting, but I wholly disagree.
Yeah, the fans are tough to stomach. Even tougher to stomach when you’ve seen tham at their best (mid-1980’s-late 1990’s).
Although fans are not content to lose and they kick and they scream and tear the franchise down, that’s what ALL fans do. Of every team in every sport.
When the Broncos start winning with consistency and build a team that actually smells like a legitemate contender, then all of the fans will be back on teh same page.
NFL fan-dom has changed so much so that it doesn’t at all resemble its predecessor.
In the 1970’s you knew nothing about the players, their lives, the coaches and their lives. Yuo only saw the games and the way the league was set up economically and rules-wise, the players could take on more of a personality than they can now.
In the 1980’s, fans started getting to know the players and coaches better because of the TV coverage and advent of cable, but the local media still operated similarly to how it did before.
In the 1990’s, the players finally saw resolution to the reason for teh 1987 strike and were awarded free agency by a jury. It completely changed the way that we view the NFL and our local team because players are far more transient. ESPN took off and teh NFL overtook baseball as the US’s most popular sport. The internet was spawned and set the stage for pervasive media coveage based upon ravenous user interest.
The past 12 or so years have been incredible from a coverage standpoint. SItes like ESPN and CNNSI saw offshoots and those offshoots saw offshoots leading to sites liek MHR and IAOFM. Fantasy football is also a billion dollar a year business, so the cable and internet companies now have an evem higher interest in reporting on the NFL like it’s the NYSE. The crazything in all o fthis is that users/fans have still not been satiated. Tehre’s still a bigger market to tap into and the coverage is only going to get more granular. The biggest change is that about 10 years ago, the local papers and news channels started losing readership due to other competition (cable, internet). Many local papers went out of biz (like the RMN). In response, teh local journalists have taken to guerrilla tactics and shock-joeckery to retain and maintain clicks and subcrips.
Through all of this Broncos fans are still Broncos fans. They’re just different than they used to be. They get more bent out of shape now about back of teh roster moves than they ever did before. They have a polace where they can rant, scream, and kick anonymously (here) and watch others do the same.
I’m fortunate in that I’ve been able to go to games in KC every few seasons since teh late 1990’s. I’ve seen that fan base be every bit as ravenous as Denver’s was before the turn of the century. But I also saw that franchise is complete disarray and the fans absolutely let the franchise have it in the stands and online and over the airwaves. They bood mercilessly at times. BUt in the end, they want one thing: to have a contender to root for. And when they have a contender, boy do tehy come out in droves with faces painted and jerseys worn and partie sthrown and teh stadium shakes and all is right. And Denver’s no different. I have season tickets and I HATE that people complain when I stand and scream at my team or for my team. But the reason people get mad is because I am doing something different that they are. We like to presume that people used to behave differently (in our heydey), but that’s untrue. We had season tickets when I was a kid and my dad used to get asked to sit down ALL the time. Until the playioffs or late in games, and they EVERYBODY was on their feet.
The San Diego (Hochili game) and the Pats game in 2009 are 2 examples where i can say that it was just like old times. It was an epic game and the fans were going frickin’ nuts. Nobody was stitting late in those games. ANd why did tohose games remind me of teh good times? Because were contending for a win and in contention at the time for something bigger. The franchise seemed on the rise.
Things haven’t changes for fans, the franchise is just crappier. It’s been a poorly run organization with acrummy strategy for damn near 10 seasons. Denver needed a GM to be hired right around 2002 or 2003. That’s when the personnel avalanche started. No one player or coach changes this all. Teh entire organization needs to get things buttoned up. Shanahan was once ‘coach for life’. McD was once 6-0. John Fox – well, he hasn’t done much yet. But the changes that fans need to see, and you might not like this, are changes from February through July. Denver know’ this too. That’s why Elway’s here. Bowlen and Ellis must have felt that they were in desperation mode with no clue how to runa franchise that can maintain success on the field, Now we as fans have to wait and see if Elway has any clue hoe to run this thing.
Because in the end, the draft is an abolsute crap shoot. Not one team knows what in the hell they’re doing. Some teams string together a few years where they hit more than they miss and they get all the pub, but the truth is that everybody had the guys that those teams drafted ranked where those teams did, but the cards just didn’t fall right. If somebody really knew what they were doing, one franchise would crush the league for like 10 years straight. In NE they are killing Belichick. It’s the same thing Denver was going through circa 2006 or so (only they have Brady). Bill can’t draft defenive talent to save his life – and he’s supposed to be a defensive guru!
Look, Luck is so popular because whoever gets him is gonna look brilliant. If I was Elway, I’d trade as many #1 picks as the Colts or whoever wanted to get Luck. Becasue otherwise, he’s back to gambling. Luck, at worst, is gonna be Carson Plamer, at best he’ll be Manning with athleticism.
The franchise must win in order to restore order to fans. After all, fans live in the real world where they go to wrak at 8:00am and worry about making ends meet and putting gas in the car and affording furniture and day care and getting that big promotion. We have a million other things that are important, way more important than the Broncos, but if the Broncos make it feel more important to be a fan because they’re a contender, then everybody will be on teh same page and teh stadium will shake and be a scary place for visiting teams to play.
Until then, enjoy the small victories. Like Decker’s rise. And Von Miller’s first step. Because now, its fans like you that come to MHR every day that are huddled in a bunker together waiting for teh Broncos to right the ship. Just realize that you have ZERO control. It’s just a game. ANd realize how LUCKY we were to get to 6 super bowls in 21 years. Don’t be unappreciative. It’s not like you LOSE money when Denver stinks unless you’re a gambler & that’s a whole other problem,
by super7 on Nov 3, 2011 8:14 AM MDT reply actions 5 recs
The Chefs lost their sellout steak just a few years ago. They had several games blacked out locally over a three year window.
Their fans are just like any other fanbase. They don’t like watching crappy football.
X > Tim Tebow
Yep
It’s simple. It’s not a chicken or the egg conversation.
Great fans are borne out of competitive teams. Not the other way around.
The notion that any fanbase is wildly supportive and raucous through a string of 4, 5, and 6 win season is downright ridiculous.
Have a buddy who’s a Steeler fan. Says that in the late1980’s the people still went to games but HATED the teams and hated teh FO and hated the players. Booed like crazy. It seemed like they couldn’t do anything right. Sound familiar?
In 1992 Cowher came in and turned around the fortunes of that franchise. He brought OC Erhardt, Defensive Coordinator Dom Capers, Dback coach Dick LeBeau and LBs coach Marvin Lewis with him (wow – what a group!). They replaced Chuck Noll, John Fox, Dave Brazil, and Joe Walton. They didn’t make huge personnel changes either. Just better coaches. The also dumped Tom Modrak (head of scouting) and Dick Haley (Todd Haley’s dad) from his sport as Dir of Player Personnel. Hard to say if changes in coaching or FO were the biggest, but some combination of both helped teh Steelers break the cycle.
C’mon Denver, hire a GM or just name Elway GM. Xanders, regardless of his successes or failures should be scrapped, if anything, just to strat fresh.
by super7 on Nov 3, 2011 8:59 AM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
Awesome dude
I love this post.
It shall be green. It speaks truth. Heaps of truth and this is the best part
“Great fans are borne out of competitive teams. Not the other way around.”
X > Tim Tebow
You know not what you say.
The best fans are the first ones to turn on crappy teams in hopes that change is instituted.
You like to use the Chiefs as your example. Well 4 or so years ago, their great fans were torch and pitchfork, arm in arm going after Herm Edwards. They lost their sellout streak and the stadium was half empty by halftime of most of their home games. KC fans turned on their team.
None of that mattered however. What mattered was that they drafted smart (hit on a lot of early and mid round picks). Now they have better players than Denver. Their old GM made some of those picks and Scott P made some of those picks. In the end, their fortunes turned because they got better players. Not better fan support.
X > Tim Tebow
We hit rock bottom when McJedi was cheating on San Fran in a loss during a 4 win season full of blowouts.
Compare our recovery to the American economy. This could be a slow and drawn out recovery for Denver. And the final results may look different than when we were the only Superpower.
X > Tim Tebow
My father took me to a couple Broncos games in the early 70s, before the team had had any success whatsoever. The Broncos fans cheered like maniacs no matter how tough it might be to beat the opposing team. It was taken as a challenge, David versus Goliath, and any competitive skill displayed by the Broncos was absolutely cherished. Broncos fans screamed at Raiders HC John Madden, but it was always with the unspoken respect that they had a good team (nevermind the dirty play the Raiders were notorious for at the time), something to which we aspired. There haven’t been better Broncos fans since, IMO.
by cosBroncosFan on Nov 3, 2011 1:59 PM MDT up reply actions
To this I agree...although the fans of the late 80's and early 90's had to endure the embarrassment of national defeat in Super Bowls.
Yet we still cheered like maniacs.
SB XII, versus the Dallas Cowboys
That game wasn’t as close as the score indicated.
To me the lesson was you don’t want your team to luck into championship games. And it’s underscored by the Broncos SBs before TD, Zimmerman, Romo, Atwater, et al. Either your team can demonstrate championship caliber football (even like the Bills SB-losing efforts), or don’t be too surprised/disappointed if they lose. How can a team with Gradishar or Louis Wright lose? Well, if the other guys have greater numbers of talented players compared to the Broncos, on both sides of the ball…
by cosBroncosFan on Nov 3, 2011 2:37 PM MDT up reply actions
go green
People fear the Tebow because they do not understand the Tebow.
Bronco fan and part-time tweetererer-er @broncosmontana.
by broncosmontana on Nov 3, 2011 5:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Yeah I'm not buying this...
All franchises have down time…all of them. Some longer then others and some more often then others but all franchises go through these things.
The fans are not the problem, it’s the feaux fans that are. People from SEC country who want to root for a jersey rather than a franchise. People who, with the game still in reach and the team driving down the field for a score, boo every miscue on that drive because they think the wrong QB is throwing the incompletions. These people are not the “fan base” of the franchise and only two things will quiet their grumbling; Tebow must succeed or he must fail. If he succeeds they will be happy and placated, save for the occasional “I-told-ya-so.” If he fails and is released, they will bail, grumbling about conspiracies and poor coaching and become the dividing force for whichever team might dare pick him up. I refuse to take responsibility for the fiasco that is taking place.
Elway is in, Zimm is in, Little is FINALLY in but don't forget: Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater & Terrel Davis
by BlueNOrangeNIdaho on Nov 3, 2011 8:41 AM MDT reply actions
What an epic comment string...here's my 2 pennies and I'm sure they've already been said...TL;DR
The fan attitude is awful for Broncos Country for the most part. We still have level-headed fans here and there who have their heads screwed on straight and realize that we are actually rebuilding and probably will only reach “mediocre” next year.
That is completely separate from the state of the team and why it is failing. The FO and coaching are to blame there…we do actually have a talent-deficient team. I can see that. I watch football and see other teams pull off plays and get turn overs because their players are faster, stronger, smarter, etc. That is the majority of it…our coaching does play a part and can increase / decrease players’ performance, but if guys don’t come to the NFL with their A game, they won’t last long. So if all the players on both teams are giving their all, the better team will win in general.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
You make several good points Tim
However, I have to believe that Mr. Bowlen is in fact an astute businessman. Keeping that in mind I expect that he has a feel for what the fans think and listens to what the current grumbling is. There will always be grumbling of course. The thing is there are 31 other teams who have gone through the same thing we Broncos are going through right now. Look at the Colts. Look at all the former great teams. They rise and fall. Teams all do the same thing we are doing. Change coaching personnel, players… whatever seems to be necessary to “give us the best chance of winning”. The NFL is always in a constant state of change and turmoil. Always has been. So… where does that leave us? Right where we are. We can bitch and cry about the coach or the QB but other than being a lot of static in Mr. Bowlen’s ear, I doubt what fans cry about has much effect. The only real power that fans have is simple. Just stop coming to games. Stop spending $ on NFL stuff. Well, I’m not willing to do that. I doubt the rest of the folks around here are either. So in the end, I’m a long time fan that is watching and waiting for our next golden moment. It’ll come. Go Denver!
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
by SSinSD on Nov 3, 2011 10:02 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Very thoughtful column, Tim.
Tim, there is wisdom in your words. The Green Bay model has proven to be exceptional. Another perfect example is the Cowboys of the late 80’s. They gutted their roster and orchestrated the Herschel Walker to the Vikings for a slough of draft picks, and it wasn’t long before the Cowboys were the dynasty of the 90’s. They were built from the ground up mostly through the draft, and built to last. Of course, all good things must come to an end…
I am of the opinion that is where the Broncos are likely headed… I have changed my mind over and over about the best path to relevance. Recently, I have been drinking alot of Kool aid, believing that it will only take a few players to get this team playing better. This article made me realize that while a few players might help out, it is not what is needed to create long term success. Its going to take a major philosophical change in the overall operations of the organization. This must start with the owner, FO, coaching staff, and lthe players.
I believe somewhere during the end of last season, that philosophical change has already happened and the wheels were put into motion by bringing in Elway and Fox. Before they could truly gut the roster, there needs to be a season like the one we are currently experiencing, where every player is given an opportunity to establish their own value to the future of the franchise. Brandon Lloyd already has been moved because he doesn’t factor into the future of the Broncos… I believe that there are many more changes soon forthcoming…
There will be alot of confused and upset Broncos fans because of what is about to happen. Brace yourselves Broncos fans, it’s gonna take alot of faith that the personnel moves made in the next 4-8 months are indeed what is best for the team.
Go Broncos!
by tjpmontana on Nov 3, 2011 10:42 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
GO BRONCOS
faith has never been a question
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Nov 3, 2011 10:49 AM MDT up reply actions
Thanks!
The problem with the Green Bay model is that they were able to build on the fly with a HOF QB in place while the young gun developed into an elite QB.
We are more like KC of 2007 than like Green Bay of 2007. However, it is going to take a lot of faith to suffer through the next year or two. I think EFX have a good eye for talent, so we just need to exercise patience.
Fire Fox is only going to make things worse…
True but...
While I agree at this point the Broncos are most similar to the Chiefs of 2007, my point is that Green Bay was built from the ground up and they seem to have discovered the formula for long term success. The mere fact that they were able to draft a quarterback (Rodgers) to learn from a HOF quarterback (Favre) is not only enviable, but it illustrates the type of business model that the Broncos need to strive for.
I think it’s important to maintain a semi-revolving door regarding personnel, so when players get a little long in the tooth, they can be traded while they still have value for good draft picks. As my grandpappy always said, “Sacrifice a little now to invest in your future”… or something like that.
The same point can be made for the Patriots and Steelers… I can’t remember the last time the Patriots went into a draft without being loaded with draft picks. The Patriots and Steelers are also at least reasonably competitive almost every year…
fox
Fox can probably do real good as a coach if his team can build a lead and hold it. But the Talent isn’t there for that. No coach can take the Broncos as they stand and make the playoffs
The problem of fans
You’re right….and, you’re wrong. When you talk about a youth movement for the Broncos, I think you are ‘dead on’. When you stress some patience, I think you’re ‘right on.’ The only disagreement I have is that C. Bailey should hit the road too. (I mean, really…the guy’s always injured.) Lets take his salary and invest in a quality defensive backfield coach that can create, and continue to create, quality defensive backs. Getting rid of some ‘dead weight’ players should free up dollars necessary to hire a quality quarterback coach, offensive line coach, etc…essentially, help to build a new team. I hope the organization will take the time to critique the coaching staff and clear out the guys who are unable to mentor and develop young players.
The coaching staff and front office should also exibit a little patience. As the Broncos rebuild, they should remind the fan base that the new, changing Bronco players are young and inexperienced, but quality guys that have a bright future. Tebow’s a great example. After the coaching staff gave him the reigns for the rest of 2011, they got ‘squishy’ with it after a lousy game. Now he’s on the hot seat (after one win and one loss.) Sure, he needs to play better, but so do a bunch of guys. Do we have the right people in charge of developing the guy? Do we have the right attitude?
When Peyton Manning was a rookie, he went 3 – 13. Matt Stafford went 3 – 10 in his first thirteen starts. I can on with examples, but the point is, the Broncos front office and coaching staff need to get behind the young guys and start mentoring and developing. The fans were correct to call for Tebow to play. The Bronco’s organization was correct to put Tebow in. Now let him play….and let him fail some….and let some of the other young guys fail some….but keep mentoring them, keep showing them a picture of the future. EVERYBODY RELAX (including fans) and strive to do a better job (including fans.) Let’s get on with the rebuilding.
Good luck this weekend Broncos. It would be great to see you give the Raider’s a tough time on their home turf. GO BRONCOS!!
by datguyski on Nov 3, 2011 11:43 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I have read this and can't help but agree
Everyone is entitled to their opinions but this franchise was in trouble after we let go of Shanahan with out a real idea of where we wanted to go. The inability to access where we wanted to go as a franchise from both a philosophical point of view and leadership stand point, we find ourselves knee deep, in knee deep crap.
I don’t care about Tebow. I trust Elway and Fox. This is the most trust I’ve had our Front Office since Shanahan prior to 2000.
Say hello to my fast...
Agreed.
I trust Elway and Fox. This is the most trust I’ve had our Front Office since Shanahan prior to 2000.
good diagnosis, poor prescription
Living otuside of CO, I agree denver fans are some of the most self-entitled, impatient whiners in the country. This creates an atmosphere that is not conduscive to success, and makes building and maintaining a winner harder than it should be. Denver had an amazing run of sport success in the 80s, 90s and early 00s, but expecting that to be the norm is simply unrealistic.
The whole “superbowl or nothing” mentality is in my mind a disease that leads to self-fulfilling prophesies of failure. We equate “above average” as failure because it is not “elite”, and make it difficult to build a solid foundation upon which the success is built. “Elite” is what puts you over the top, but if the base is squishy, the elite will simply sink into the quicksand of failure. In 09 and 10, Orton wasn’t great, but by 11, the context was such that even avg was going to be difficult. The disatisfaction with DJ is similar. Neither were/are “elite”, yet folks seem to equate that with them sucking. Its absurd. Miller looks to have the potential to be elite, but if garbage surrounds him it won’t matter.
This post is a symptom of that same thinking. Trading every above average veteran simply means you are breaking up the foundation again (which we did already with McD). Totally premature 1/2 season into a new regime is to me completely ludicrous.
Give it time folks. Its far too soon to draw any conclusions about Elway, Fox, TT, etc.
by cjfarls on Nov 3, 2011 3:47 PM MDT via mobile reply actions
I live in Sacramento. Raider fans acted the same way during their long drought of sucktasticness.
I don’t want to be like Raider fans……
Can't add anything that hasn't already been said somewhere above
But thanks for the welcome dose of sanity. While I wouldn’t go so far as to say we’re destroying the franchise, our expectations have been out of sync with reality since the superbowl years. I won’t even refer to 06, as I think we overachieved that year.
Also, I know there is a long and storied history of being the next iteration of a successful program. “They are the next 49ers, the next Cowboys, the next Patriots, the next Ravens, etc.” I don’t want to be the next Packers. I want to be a first iteration of the next championship Broncos team. It’s a long long process and we simply don’t have the patience. Good lord, have we really become the fanbase that roots for the backup QB, then ditches him 3-4 weeks in? I definitely didn’t want to be the Browns!! lol
But anyway, thanks for the clear-eyed view, Tim. I know we come down differently on some things, but I have a lot of respect for your articulate and straightforward manner, and hopefully looking in the mirror for a bit will put a little ballast in our brains and a little patience in our pronouncements for the next few years. We are a long ways away and there’s no point in spending it so uptight. It’s much more rewarding to simply keep the faith, spend time in devout prayer and introspection, and watch for the faint hints of the glory to come.
People fear the Tebow because they do not understand the Tebow.
Bronco fan and part-time tweetererer-er @broncosmontana.
First of all, the staff should be fired if they ever let the fans dictate what they do
Passionate fans usually look bad when they lose, but ultimately they can’t be held responsible for the carnage. I can see the sense of how the bronco fans are becoming too much of the story though. As a fan though, it has seemed fairly easy lately to think contrary to what the franchise thinks, and being right about it more often than not. This Tebow thing is something else, but its normal to grow tired of the starting QB when you know he doesn’t make your team any better, it just so happens that our backup is the polarizing, controversial Tim Tebow.
Drinkin the kool-aid, smokin the Orange Kush
"Living outside CO"
I’m living way outside colo. but I can comprehend whats going on pretty good. All I have to do is look at our final scores and compare them with the rest of the AFC and figure we aren’t making quick progess. I have seats I pay for and my wife attends games with my son. So I have a stake in the team just like all the fans, an emotional tie. I njust want to see a decent product on the field, why stick with a quarterback thats stuggling and has terrible stats and can’t get the job done?
but blowing up the team every 16 games...
…Is no way to get better.
Its just too small a sample to really tell what is happening in a complex system.
Did we lose because 20% of the team really sucked, or %40 sucked just a little bit? Did the young players learn from their mistakes? Were the players mentally slow (potentially fixable for young players), or physically overmatched (not fixable)? If you are expert enough to definitively answer these questiions from the past 8 games, why the hell are you here and not working in the League?
The final score doesn’t tell us any of these things, and the conflating factors like injuries, differing opponents/matchups, etc. all mean short-term results may not be a good indicator of future performance.
Patience folks… The new regime has had 8 games to start to sort through these questions, and a limited offseason to bring in “their guys”. Insanity around our QB situation and fan handwringing also has created further conflating influences that probably contribute to negative on-field results.
Take a deep breath folks… By the end of 2012/2013, we’ll have a sense of whether EFX have the team moving in a positive direction… But the wild swings of our first 8 games probably aren’t a good indicator of what that final judgement will be.
by cjfarls on Nov 4, 2011 3:51 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
Why declare the guy a bust after 5 games? You dont see how short sighted that is Baghdad?
Foxy...you WERE on the hot seat, but you fooled me you rascally old deveil...keep building that team mate!
"Tebow is a special player. I have never seen a player quite like him in my whole career! I’m gonna play all out for the guy! I know he will be out there giving 110% every play every week, so I’m gonna give 120%!:
Champ Bailey.
Probably too soon to call it definitively, but just because 5 games is a small sample doesn’t mean TT fans and the rest of us shouldn’t be concerned about what we’ve seen, because what we’ve seen has matched many expert projections of TT’s strengths and weaknesses.
In the past 2 games, TT has in one 4 minute stretch shown the good things he can do, but also seems to be confirming the worst fears too that made many think he may never be a solid NFL QB. Poor accuracy, slow release, poor/slow reads… All these have been apparent, and the good things in 4 of 120 minutes won’t be enough to cut it longterm..
This doesn’t mean TT can’t turn it around over the next 9 games, but I’ve adjusted my expectations for success back… Before I gave TT a roughly 50-50 shot of panning out… Now I’d say maybe 20-80… Still hoping for the 20!
by cjfarls on Nov 5, 2011 9:46 PM MDT via mobile up reply actions
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