Let's Not Forget: Oakland Part 2 Aftermath
This game may have been the most complete display of teammate works since the Cincy game. Great play in all three phases just goes to show when the team plays well, we can compete with decent teams. Now the game was hardly perfect especially for some players, but like last week, we are going to dive a bit deeper into some parts and players that often get overlooked in these post-game reviews.
Now last week you said you wanted the bad news first so I'll stick with that format. With that in mind, remember to finish the bad news and read the good news before commenting. Keep in mind that these aren't final judgements on players saying they will 100% succeed or 100% fail. Also, please remember this is taken from game film and stats put together, so this isn't a rush job. I did my best to give each topic deep coverage. Now I want this to be different than a normal Stud's or Dud's or Winner's or Loser's, so while I will categorize them under similar labeling, I'm hoping to highlight things that won't be brought up in other game recap posts.
Some Bad Things I Noted:
Time Management:
This has been an issue in recent weeks, but came to a head this week. Both Fox and Tim Tebow have struggled with time management. Between the delay of game calls and using time outs to stop those penalties, we had major issues. In relation to Fox it seems to be that he's still developing his game plan and making adjustments on the fly, and it's showing in terms of play calling from McCoy and slow pace of the game this week. Now in terms of Tebow, he seems to be trying to read the defenses coverage and he is able to do it, just at a delayed speed. He is struggling between getting the play off and not knowing the defense's coverage or taking his time and possibility of taking a penalty. Now this is very fixable for both men, but I seriously hope it's fixed soon.
Clady's Bad Streak:
I think everyone here knows Ryan Clady isn't playing like his old self, that's undeniable, but these past two games have shown me a disturbing trend. The first is his penalties, he's the 2nd most penalized offensive lineman in the league, that's terrible. But what makes it worse is he is committing these penalties to mask his worse play. Watching his play specifically these past two weeks have backed this up, he's actually been lucky he hasn't been called for holding more often than he has because he's using it to try and compensate for his overall poor play. Now he may be our best lineman, but his penalties are a symptom of his poor play, and that needs to be changed or our offense is going to struggle.
Tebow, Tebow, Tebow:
Read that like "Marsha, Marsha, Marsha." Now I generally avoid talking Tebow, but this format requires that I talk about him. We knew Tebow could run and he showed us that this week, but he showed the same issues as last week in the passing game. It was usually hidden by some of the worst coverage play I've seen by the Raiders in weeks. He is throwing behind his receivers and he's throwing low, which is fine on some plays, but not on the routes he throwing low on. Now it's going to be okay Tebow-ites, I'll discuss this later and how it's not all bad.
Secondly Tebow is constantly flouted as a strong character player, with a massive drive, but at this point it's killing him on the field in the passing game. Kyle Orton was a strong rhythm passer, but has the calm to keep his cool. Tim Tebow is also trying to be something he's not He's trying to be a rhythm passer and it's bad for him. You can see the physical frustration on his face and when he misses a few passes in a row, it gets worse. He begins to try and force it and that was a major concern. Like I said above, this is also something I'll discuss later, so calm down and finish reading the article.
Some Good Things I Noted:
Defense Looking, and Coached, Different:
Something that has been eluding our defense this season has been turnovers. Despite two quarterbacks who are good at eliminating turnovers, our turnover differential has been terrible and it's because we are creating turnovers. Dennis Allen made some FANTASTIC coaching changes these past two weeks. What he has done has more to do with weekly practice changes rather than in game changes, but it's having a huge effect. He's coaching players to fight for the ball. Now Chicago's head coach Lovie Smith is the best in the league at this and Charles Tillman is the best player at showing this. When going in for tackles he always aims to punch the ball. Coach Allen took a note from this and it's having an impact. When you rush a passer you want one of two things to happen: A. you get to the QB and sack him or B. you force him to throw the ball before he wants to. Now we've been getting pressure, but our secondary hasn't been going after the mis-thrown ball. All that has changed and we saw the results last week, We've also seen our players punching the ball. Now I specifically looked for this and there has been a change in the past two weeks. We didn't do this early in the season. Allen, good coaching.
Speaking of Coaching:
There are many opinions about D.J. Williams and that's fine, but one thing I will note is that his grasp of our team's front seven is impressive and his on-the-field adjustments are very effective. He does have flaws in his game, but he is causing some chaos up front and we are being much more aggressive. Now I obviously don't know what the coverage looked like before Williams created motion or how it would have affected the play, but I can say from my vantage point, he's doing a great job commanding our defense.
Tebow, Tebow, Tebow (Again):
Now I promised I'd talk a bit more about Tebow so I will, to keep the masses happy. When I did my one and only complete Tebow review, I made a check list on Tebow's style of play. A number of vocal people said I was way off base, but since then I have been watching Tebow play and he's checking my boxes off. Here's a quick reminder of what they were:
What Tebow's style is good at:
- Deep passes, though not accurately, but these passes will be a bigger part of the offense (Tebow, McNabb, Roethlisberger and Newton)
- Mobility will allow for rolling out more successfully and moving past the line of scrimmage (All quarterbacks)
- Size makes him hard to tackle (All Quarterbacks)
- Screen game (Tebow, McNabb, Newton)
- "Chunk" offense, lots of big plays (Tebow, Roethlisberger, Newton and Young)What Tebow's style struggles with:
- Accuracy will always be an issue, topping 60% is unlikely (Tebow, McNabb, Newton and Young)
- Use of the slot, due to inaccuracy, rarely leads receivers well (Tebow, Newton, Young and Roethlisberger)
- Will take more sacks and hits than an average quarterback, quite a bit more (All quarterbacks)
- Injuries will plague this style (Tebow, McNabb, Young and Roethlisberger have all missed time)
- Timing passes, due to instability to sit in pocket and slower release will disrupt these passes (Tebow, McNabb, Young and Roethlisberger)
- Along with the "chunk" offense, low 3rd down conversion rate and consistency (Tebow, Roethlisberger, Newton and Young)
When I did that study on Tebow I related him to four other quarterbacks: Donovan McNabb, Vince Young, Ben Roethlisberger and Cam Newton. Now as time has passed, it's clear which quarterback he's going to be like, just in terms of skill set and style of play. He's far to different from Newton and Young in terms of accuracy and decision making. That leaves Roethlisberger and McNabb. Now Roethlisberger is similar to Tebow in terms of how he runs his offense, the "chunk" offense, big gains but not consistent. But McNabb is almost exactly the same as Tebow, just at the next level. McNabb and Tebow both are able to minimize turnover, McNabb is actually one of the best, if not the best in NFL history. Both are inaccurate on a regular basis. Both prefer to go deep and to the outside and avoid the middle of the field. Watching Tebow is watching someone develop McNabb's play, just a notch below. So Tebow's struggles are going to be okay as long as he takes the next step. He can't win regularly at his current level, but his style of play has succeeded in the NFL, Tebow just has to take his passing to the next level.
Play Calling FTW:
I know a lot of fans were skeptical last week about the play calling. Thankfully we had a number of people write saying the play calling was much improved, because it was. And this week we saw more improvement. Mike McCoy really focused on the option plays, more than I've ever seen in the NFL. On almost every run play by a running back, Tebow was given the option to keep the ball and run it himself. Because of that, he was able to shred the Raiders defense. Now will this be a big part of the offense or was it specifically designed to beat Oakland's fantastic front four? I'm not sure, but I can say McCoy is really fighting to keep his job next season.
I would also like to give a shout out to McCoy again for another reason. I once heard Trent Dilfer, a bad QB but a great analyst, and Jerry Rice talking. They came to the agreement that receivers constantly being open was a sign of a scheme that was working. Rice said even average or bad receivers could get open if there was a good scheme in place. We saw that this week. On both touchdown passes our receivers were wide open, Decker had a good two to three yards, and that was due to a great route, and Royal was called into the perfect route to blow the Raider's zone coverage apart, and they paid big both times. Our receivers are getting open much more often than they used to at the beginning of the season, and it has the potential to pay off. So props to McCoy again.
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Tebow's Inaccuracy
I don’t understand the belief that Tebow will be inaccurate forever just because he’s missing passes now. The only thing that comes to mind is that perhaps its because he’s so good at the running that surely he can’t possibly also be a great passer. Fact is, in college he was super accurate. “Experts” can claim that’s the spread, but if the spread made terribly inaccurate passers accurate, I’m pretty sure every school in NCAA would be a spread and they would all win two National Titles with each spread QB, right? Makes no sense.
Please don’t forget that he’s played in 5 games, and that’s not just 5 NFL games, but 5 games with a completely new throwing motion. He has how many years experience throwing with his original motion, 8 or more? And 5 games with new one? So he has to learn to be accurate with totally new mechanics, with all new receivers, in the NFL, with his 2nd offensive coordinator in 2 years. Let’s give the guy just a few more games perhaps before he decide he’ll never be accurate.
But let’s also be fair. Carson Palmer threw 3 INTs and almost 2 more. He also had a terrible overthrow to no one at all. When Tebow did that, the booth said, “ah there’s Tebow’s inaccuracy”, when Palmer did it, that was just normal. Palmer throws a pass over the head of his receiver in the end zone, but the receiver makes a fantastic catch to pull down for a TD, and Palmer is applauded for his accuracy. Tebow previously makes the exact same pass which is NOT caught by a Bronco receiver (not with getting both feet down) and its said Tebow made a bad pass. It would help if Broncos receivers week after week didn’t drop catchable balls, and help even more if they made more great catches like their opponents have.
Now before anyone gets all worked up, I’m not saying Tebow is throwing great, I’m just saying he’s throwing like a rookie who changed his entire throwing motion for the NFL. Let’s give him a tiny bit more time before we label him an inaccurate passer for life.
Tebow was 8th in QB rating this week, and ninth 2 weeks ago. What does this man have to do to please people?
What do Rivers, Brady, Palmer, Roethlisberger have in common? They all lost and threw for a combined 9 interceptions. I’m with you, he needs to improve, but I believe he will continue to improve, continue to see the field faster, and continue to gain confidence and make better passes just like he did in High School, College, and has shown flashes of in the NFL, like in the 3rd Q. Patience.
by Brian Burridge on Nov 8, 2011 7:07 PM MST reply actions 10 recs
The past is just that
Please no more references to what he did in college. Every NFL QB had excellent stats in college or they wouldn’t be where they are. He has proven to be a poor NFL passer so far. 50% last year regressing to 46% this season. And the 2 teams he beat are a combined 5-11. OK, this week Brady lost to the Giants in Eli’s finest game and Tebow beat a team without it’s starting QB and RB, so your point is that he is better QB? That Tebow Koolaid is some scary stuff, indeed.
"Ready are you? What know you of ready?"
Yoda
Man, I've read Brian's post 4 times
And am still trying to find where he says that Tebow is a better quarterback than Brady.
Can you please help me out and highlight the part of his post where he claimed that Tebow is a better quarterback than Brady, azdenfan?
No
My point is not that he’s a better QB, my point is you cannot judge a person’s entire NFL future on 5 games.
by Brian Burridge on Nov 8, 2011 8:15 PM MST up reply actions
You can judge their style of play
I knew what type of QB Manning, Brady, McNabb, Campbell, and many others would be early in their careers, and I believe the same can be said for Tebow. I won’t say that he’ll fail, or that he’ll succeed, though I think he’ll succeed, but it’s very easy to define someone’s style of play.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Randall Cunningham's
Style of play evolved. Same thing with Michael Vick. They both became much better pocket passers and less runners as the years passed.
Von Miller and Dumervil are basically racing to see who's first to the QB...Love this feeling!!!
Vick's change was directly related to sitting
Under one of the best QB developers in the league now, Andy Reid, and constantly watching Donovan McNabb. Vick said he wouldn’t have changed his style if he hadn’t had both of their influences. Steve Young is the same story, he said he wouldn’t have ever become a great passer if he hadn’t had the elite coaches he had. It takes a massively talented coach to fix players like Vick and Steve Young, and there aren’t enough of them to just say “we need a new coach.” And Cunningham’s style really didn’t change he just got more talent so his inaccuracy was made up for in Minnesota by talent around him, something he lacked in Philly. Add in Cunningham was coached from his rookie season, for years, to be a runner. His coach Buddy Ryan, would asking what he was working on, and when Cunningham said the playbook Ryan would reply that he needed to be faster, to work on his speed, not his passing ability. Cunningham was severely retarded in his growth because of Buddy Ryan. John Fox is a defensive coach, but he’s not as close minded as Ryan.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Style
It can be assesed, early, but it can be changed too.
Make a Difference, that is the best any man can do.
by JREDbroncofan on Nov 9, 2011 2:14 PM MST up reply actions
Not often, but it does happen
I’m not banking on Tebow ever topping 60+% a season or ever being accurate on the inside slant, or ever playing the dink and dunk, but if anyone wants to take that bet and say he will, I’d gladly take it.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
don't read too much into the difference between 50% and 46% completion
that is 4 passes since TT has exactly 97 passing attempts this year in 3.5 starts. So you’re crowing about one less completion per game. IIRC he has had at least one dropped pass each game.
Win the individual battles at the LOS - all else flows from that.
by DE_BroncoFan on Nov 9, 2011 7:11 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Just a note about Tebow's completion percentage
If you take away spikes, throw away and dropped balls, it rises to 54.4%. While it is still the worst in the league, it is better than meets the eye.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
This is spot on with one exception
You say that Tebow is throwing like a rookie who changed his entire throwing motion, but I would have to say that right now Tebow is throwing better than you would expect from someone who has been asked to completely change his throwing motion.
Right now, in the middle of completely reworking his throwing motion, he’s a 48% passer with an 81 quarterback rating and an 11 to 4 TD to INT ratio. Imagine how good he’ll be 2-3 years down the road when he’s had time to smooth out a new set of mechanics…
I doubt it
The thing is he has worked on changing his motion for 2.5 years (since his draft prep) and it still looks awful, I doubt he can do much more to improve it. We still see him fall back to his old ways of doing a big windup (that is how he got strip sacked last week) and too many of his passes have a lot of wobble.
The problem is
that something like this has happened so rarely in the NFL that there isn’t really a timeline that can be used to judge how far he is in the process.
I think he’s not finished yet, that the throwing motion will get better, and that we are going to see even more improvement as the game continues to slow down for him.
Like I said, I’m excited to see what he and the Broncos will be able to accomplish with a couple years of experience together under their belts.
The problem is
that after two and a half years of diligent, daily practice, Tebow still can’t throw a spiral, or even a consistent duck. That’s why his completion rate is so low. After two and a half years, we should have seen more progress. I am sure he can get better, since his ball is about the most inconsistent of any quarterback in the NFL today. The big question is, how much better will he get? His recent past isn’t very encouraging.
Wow, well I guess we see what we want to see
I’ll keep my positive outlook:)
@gyldenlove
The ball didn’t look extremely low to me. Its not like the Brady’s, Manning’s etc. of the world have ever had the ball striped from a pass rusher huh?
Sheez.
Chuck Norris once asked Tim Tebow for advice on martial arts.
by prototype on Nov 8, 2011 11:57 PM MST via mobile up reply actions
Or maybe he got strip sacked because that guy came in completely unblocked
9 out of 10 QBs would have lost that ball
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"When John Elway is standing in lava with a football, he will stay there and sink until you're open"
-Seanbaby
You are right
But the point remains, and has for every QB to set foot on the field, the sack was on the lineman, the fumble was on the QB, ball security is on the QB.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Sure
In the grand scheme of things, when all people see or remember about these games are the box scores, that will be true. But for those of us who watched them both, that play was NOTHING like “the drop”, even though they both had the same effect.
I really like some of your posts and then some make me just shake my head in wonder. I do not see how those get reconciled into one person’s view. You my friend are a quandry wrapped inside and enigma. Keep on posting and keep me guessing…
Why do you need him to be very accurate?
I want him to be, but I doubt he will ever top 60% or even 55% accuracy for a season, it’s his style of play, watch it, you’ll see. I’m not saying he’s bad, and you are also confusing inaccuracy and turnovers, they aren’t related. McNabb wasn’t very accurate, but almost never, ever, threw interceptions. So please, don’t saying I’m trying to rip Tebow, I’m describe his style of play, it’s like saying I’m ripping Brady for not rushing for 100 yards.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Thank you, Max
I don’t care so much if a QB is accurate. I care if he has or doesn’t have a high completion rate. And I agree that Tebow has a similar playing style to an early McNabb. I have always thought so and couldn’t understand why no one mentioned it, at least no one that I have read. Too often analysts compare Tebow’s style to Roethlisberger, but he is closer to McNabb. As far as turnovers, Favre led the league in turnovers. He’ll go into the HOF.
If I can't have high expectations that succeed, I''d rather have high expectations and be disappointed than have low expectations and be resigned to losing.
by OrangeandBluesBros on Nov 9, 2011 7:17 AM MST up reply actions
I personally like accurate QB's
But I’m not going to force Tebow to fit that mold. Let Tebow make his own mold is my motto for this analysis.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
To be clear
A QB has to be reasonably accurate to make it in the NFL with fast defenders and get a high completion rate, but its the completion rate that has meaning. If you list qualities of a QB, emphasis on accuracy gets you Orton (who I like), emphasis on other qualities gets you Tebow (who I also like).
If I can't have high expectations that succeed, I''d rather have high expectations and be disappointed than have low expectations and be resigned to losing.
by OrangeandBluesBros on Nov 9, 2011 7:28 AM MST up reply actions
Oh I agree
And that was the next step I was talking about, if Tebow can reach the 53%-55% range, I’m confident he can succeed. Below that makes it tough to win games consistently. But if he can reach that range, or top it, he should be able to succeed.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
McNabb's career completion % is 59%
His best year was 2004 when he completed 64% of his passes. His worst year was his rookie year when he started 6 games and only completed 49%. His accuracy has been pretty consistent between 58-60% after his rookie year.
His career INT rate is 2.2%.
Win the individual battles at the LOS - all else flows from that.
His INT rate is one huge reason I put him with Tebow
Because I don’t think Tebow will ever be a high interception guy. And McNabb is at the top of Tebow’s style of play spectrum, and in the NFL, McNabb, while considered elite for most of the decade, was always the least accurate of the elite guys, who usually sit around 62%-65% accuracy. McNabb was an inaccurate QB in terms of the modern NFL QB, especially if you compare him to QB’s who have similar numbers, but he was still successful.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Wow...just wow.
A post that didn’t even criticize Tebow and everyone attacks anyway. For the record, and I have posted similar stats before, what you see is what you get with NFL QBs. Marino’s completion % his first full season as a starter was 58% and his career was 59% Elway’s was 56% and 57%. Favre was 64% and 62%. Montana 64% & 63%. Manning bucks the trend with 57% and 65% which is eight more completions per 100 attempts. We haven’t seen Tebow in a full season as starter but I would guess with his style of play (better runner then a passer) we could see as high as 55% from him but probably nothing like to his “high school” (i.e. meaningless) or college numbers.
Elway is in, Zimm is in, Little is FINALLY in but don't forget: Randy Gradishar, Steve Atwater & Terrel Davis
by BlueNOrangeNIdaho on Nov 9, 2011 9:52 AM MST up reply actions 1 recs
Clady
Clady IMHO has not played near the level he was at before the patellar tendon injury. If he can’t get back on track it could get real shaky real quick.
I'm so optimistic I'd go after Moby Dick in a row boat and take the tartar sauce with me.~Zig Ziglar
He's really struggling, hope something changes soon.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Yes, you are both right
However, as we can confirm on Bewsaf’s OL breakdowns, even struggling to reach his level again, Clady is still the best OLineman of the AFC West.
I still want us to give him this season to focus, as he still has a good level of football.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 9, 2011 8:49 AM MST up reply actions
I agree Clady is our best lineman
But he’s not going to be earning a Pro Bowl nod, let alone get back to All-Pro form, at his current rate.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
He is not just our best lineman, max
He is the AFC West best one…
I doubt if he can play the Pro Bowl level again. But even if he doesn’t, he is still a great LT.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 9, 2011 10:35 AM MST up reply actions
I'd disagree with that
He’s a solid LT, but I’d say he’s not even the best LT in the West let alone best lineman. I might be wrong, but just looking at Pro Football Focus (4th ranked tackle), Advanced NFL Stats (3rd ranked tackle), and Football Outsiders (ranked 3rd) say otherwise. I like Clady, think he’s the best we got, and he’s a good LT, but I haven’t seen any evidence saying he’s the best in the West, though this is a time I’d love to be proven wrong.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Reliable sources...
I’m saying this based on the OL breakdowns Bewsaf does after every game…
Anyway, I hope he can reach the Pro Bowl level again soon.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 9, 2011 3:08 PM MST up reply actions
I do like Bewsaf's breakdowns
But I have no idea about the normalization of his rankings, and the fact we have yet to see a player on our line drop below a 70 ranking makes me think the ratings might be inflated. Now I don’t know his methodology, and if I were to list all the rankings I’d include his as well, but his is about the only one while it seems everywhere else says otherwise. So just in terms of averaging all the sites together he still ranks in the top 3 tackles maybe, and Bewsaf might be more correct than everyone else for all I know, but I think for me, based on watching the games and these sites, I’d be hard pressed to put him at #1, though he is probably our best lineman, and still a good starter.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Reading Hoge's and Dilfer's among others critiques of Tebow
they have all said that he throws an accurate deep pass. What have you seen that keeps you from agreeing? I am not talking about the 20 yard crossing patters, I am talking about the 40 yard throws up the sideline, which haven’t been that plentiful since Lloyd was traded (a lot more of them in the last few games last year). Hopefully Thomas can start to regain some ability to stretch the D every so often, as he has been mostly invisible so far.
A baseball game is simply a nervous breakdown divided into nine innings. ~Earl Wilson
Agreed. Intermediate throws (10-20 yards) are where I think he has the worst accuracy right now, but usually when I see Tebow throw that deep, arcing ball he’s been very good. He just hasn’t been able to do that yet this year really. Either the protection has been horrible not allowing time for those plays to develop or the receivers haven’t been able to get it done or Tebow simply hasn’t thrown them much.
You are very right about Thomas-Tebow hasn’t been the best at hitting those intermediate-to-long dig and out routes, so we really need someone to push back the safeties in another way. Thomas or someone else (Willis?) needs to be able to blow past (or over) the deep coverage and bring down a couple of long passes. Otherwise, teams with plenty of time to study film are going to be able to take away our run game a lot better than the Raiders did.
I can’t remember seeing Tebow throw a lot of passes up the seam to say if he’s been good at that or not—maybe J Thomas running up the seam is another option?
Jason
The Hanging Curve
I get it from watching Tebow
Tebow throws downfield more than than other quarterback, per attempt, but is also the least accurate downfield passer. Now that’s fine because he compensates with the massive numbers going deep. Ben Roethlisberger is very similar, due to a large volume of deep passes, he will miss a lot, but when he hits them, it’s usually for a TD.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I thought
the reason royal was so wide open was because he broke off his original route.
clady is fine. He just ran into a couple of tough lines and picking up some penalties. He’ll be fine
by Braveskid on Nov 8, 2011 7:44 PM MST reply actions 1 recs
Royal was open because he route dropped him into the middle of the zone
Where he stopped and waited, at least that is what the video shows, I don’t think we’ll ever know 100%.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Also 2 things helped to get Eddie and Decker (on the other TD) wide open:
1. Oakland’s disrespect for Tebow. Jackson joked him saying he didn’t even know who “this Tebow was”, so he thought he didn’t need to gameplan good coverages.
2. Oakland’s big fear of our Zone Read rushing plays. They were getting more and more afraid during the game, and always stacking the box more and more. Sometimes they loaded the 11 players on the box to try to stop it. It opened a lot of space down the field.
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I bleed Orange & Blue.
by Fabio Broncos on Nov 9, 2011 8:54 AM MST up reply actions
Well
That is what good game planning will do… When your opponent starts to adjust to what you are doing that is hurting them, you give them a new pain to worry about.
I do give props to McCoy. He has been inconsistent and looked outmatched during the early part of the season. He looked like he did a pretty good job of using our talents better this week and getting guys into places to succeed. We will see if he can tweak it enough to keep having new places to attack when the defenses adjust… let them pick their poison, so to speak.
Personally, I think there were more receivers doing more active routes (moving around the field, not just a couple simple routes) than I have seen before (although I did not go back and “chart” it). Activity confuses defenses and gets mismatches. We need to PLAN to get mismatches and broken coverages through cunfusion. This week, we did (and better yet, we made half time adjustments too).
The whole team will evolve
Eventually I expect to see partial to hopefully, a vast improvement. They will continue to tweak parts of the team on both ends and with some luck and a little skill, drive and determination the whole team will move to greater things!
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
I think Tebow changing the mechanics isn’t the only reason he is innaccurate. He seemed a little uncomfortable in the pocket and having Frankin to protect his blindside isn’t helping.
His recievers have also had some noticable drops which could be due to familiarity and the ball spinning the opposite way from what they are used to since he is a left handed QB.
I think Clady will be okay down the road. Alot of the negatives will improve as the team gains experience and becomes accustomed to the evolving system.
Just a note on drops
Our WR’s are among the best in the NFL in terms of drops per target, drops are not an issue this season, at least not compared to recent years, we have top 10 ranked WR’s in terms of dropped passes %. So I really don’t think drops have much to do with it. Franklin struggling might though.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Delays
I have been looking at the offense and their time management and trying to compare it to other offenses. The typical offense you look to when you want to observe audibles, on the fly changes and situational football is the Colts with Manning, he is a master at getting his team to the line and ready and then mold the play or change the play to fit what he sees and feels before the snap. This takes time and as an upshot of that you often see the Colts lined up and ready with 10-15 seconds left on the playclock, this means they break the huddle with 25-30 seconds on the playclock.
In contrast we often break the huddle with between 15 and 20 seconds on the clock, we then have to have recievers run to their spot, the offensive linemen have to put their hands down, Tebow has to call out the mike and Kuper has to call out line adjustments and then we have to do pre-snap motions. One thing that is a given is that if you line up with 10 or fewer seconds on the playclock, you can not call out the mike, do line adjustments and run any motion other than moving a TE into the backfield – if you do, you will run out of time.
It shows to some extend a lack of awareness on the offense that they still do motions with less than 5 seconds on the clock, because you can’t complete it, get set and take the snap. In those situations Tebow has to go without the motion and get the snap, especially now that the refs are very aware that we tend to take a long time so they are really on the ball on the playclock.
Lotsa possibilities
McCoy gets props for game planning and adjustments, but that has not been his strength so far, so part of that may be the time it takes for McCoy to make the decision on the next play. Part of that may be the complexity of the terminology and/or play that is being called. Part of that may be the delay it takes to get your QB back the the huddle after he has run 30 yards on the last play. Part may simply be Tebow rattling it off more slowly because it is not yet that familiar and he needs to think it through while making the call. All of these are things that the O can definitely get better at.
The problem with running a play without the motion is that guys usually line up expecting motion and end up out of position if you do not run it. Some plays this migth work, but for many, they have to know when they break the huddle (or at least as they go to the line) whether they are running the motion or not. If that motion is integral in pushing the D into a scheme (i.e. going from a balanced look to an unbalanced one), it is a must and the O simply has to get on the ball sooner.
I would like to see us come up and do a quick hit from time to time as well. I love shifts and motions on offense. To me it is a sign that the OC is looking to move the Defense and looking for a weakness. However, if we always shift and motion, the D will not show its real intent until late in the count, which can be very bad for a young QB. If we hit them a few times while guys on D are not yet in their final position, we force them to show us sooner. It works best from a formation that you often motion out of. Many times, you can see the D line not even in their stance as Tebow begins the snap count…
It's a combination of things
1) Pass action plays are slow developing and are not really his forte right now.
2) Our receivers are not exactly getting open early. Tight windows are confidence breakers for a young QB when he is trying to avoid turnovers. He really needs stud receivers – Lloyd for that matter helped make Orton/Tebow look good.
3) He can’t scan 2-3 things in a matter of seconds because he is still inexperienced and with our offensive line.
4) He changed his throwing motion. It affects him no matter what. Imagine trying to change the way you hold a pen and let’s see if you write at the same pace. His motion might not appear different but it’s changed quite a bit. He is throwing way faster than he did in college. This was a change I would call unnecessary but apparently, it breaks away from NFL tradition. MSM Idiots! He would be at least 5% more accurate if he had his old motion. (I would say more). I agree with Brian – accuracy is not a thing which disappears.
5) His running abilities are not exactly taking away his passing abilities. That is pretty idiotic. Yes, he has the tendency to run because of a lack of trust. But the first 3 factors when solved should help settle this.
6) All these will come with experience and sound coaching.
Other QBs
Other QBs do not have the ability to run. Hence, they throw somewhere. Tebow runs because he has the ability to do so and help the team.
When Tebow does not feel confident about his passes,he tucks it in and runs. This actually helps the team while making him look bad. Rookie QBs are not exactly at 50% right now.
When other QBs do not feel confident about their passes, they force the throws and or throw it away. See the other rookie QB win records.
God, I hate the media.
I think like last week
You again misinterpret my point, or focus on just one part. Also you are connecting inaccuracy and mobility, they aren’t tied together. I have no idea where you got that idea. Inaccuracy, especially for Tebow comes when he is in the pocket. And you must understand, if you do any historical study, accuracy does just disappear, it happens yearly. And if you watch the games, our WR’s were getting open on many plays. I’m not ragging on Tebow, I’m describing his play style, just like if I were to talk about Tom Brady I’d discuss his lack of mobility, that wouldn’t be ragging on him.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I didn’t connect mobility and accuracy at any stage in my posts.
5) His running abilities are not exactly taking away his passing abilities. That is pretty idiotic. Yes, he has the tendency to run because of a lack of trust. But the first 3 factors when solved should help settle this.
I have seen this point being discussed in the media and that’s what I was focusing on.
Btw, I don’t understand your point. How does accuracy keep decreasing year to year?
Our WRs are getting open – they are just doing it way slower than normal. As I said, its a combination of things. If the third read gets open, Tebow is not looking at him. That’s his fault. He will just get better at things.
I never said accuracy keeps decreasing each year
Actually I have no idea where you got that. If you are talking about accuracy disappear, that does happen, especially in the transition from college to the NFL. But the NFL as a whole is getting more accurate.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
From your post
“And you must understand, if you do any historical study, accuracy does just disappear, it happens yearly.”
Yea there are yearly examples
This season you can just look at rookie Blaine Gabbert or vets like Phillip Rivers, one of the best passers in the league up till this season. They can get it back, but I doubt Gabbert ever becomes really accurate.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Well, if you don’t know how to read a defense, you can’t throw the ball.
As you learn how to read a defense, you start throwing the ball better.
http://www.nfl.com/player/drewbrees/2504775/profile
http://www.nfl.com/player/aaronrodgers/2506363/careerstats
Look at the completion percentage increase. They increase and become stable at some point.
Clady
I’m not so sure his poor play is because of his petelar tendon issue. I think it’s more to do with coaching. I think he was talented and coached well early in his career. Lately though I think his poor play is because since he was once considered the best player on team the coaches haven’t been getting on him and that he’ll just do his job, but every player, even the best ones need to be pushed at all times so they don’t rest on their laurels. We haven’t had a great O-line coach since Alex Gibbs.
GO BRONCOS!!!
Sigh.
Accuracy will always be an issue
I feel it may be my sole duty to point out the endless frustration with adverbs such as “never”, and “always”, when applied to a activity that includes “coaches” – who if those labels were to be believed, might as well give up their jobs right now because they’ll “never” improve their subjects, because if you have problems now, you’ll “always” have problems.
It’s been 6 starts. 6, right? He may never be a Brady, but he threw a ‘few’ good passes on Sunday (and some very bad ones), which is proof that he is capable of throwing them. He just needs to be more consistent.
And as I’ve said before, I think if there is anything we should expect from someone with only a few starts, it’s inconsistency. I expect good games and bad games, and hopefully over time the former outweighs the latter….
Just because I speak with authority doesn't mean I actually know what I'm talking about.
I'm saying always because it will be always
Just like Brady will ALWAYS never be a runner and Roethlisberger will ALWAYS go deep and so on. I know no one likes to hear it, but at this point I’m not saying Tebow can’t top 50% accuracy, he can, he’ll likely sit around 55% most of his career, and he can succeed that why, so I’m not sure why that upsets you?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Those two QB's you mention have been playing long enough I don't think it's a stretch to judge them at this point
They each have more seasons starting than Tim has games starting.
There’s no ‘upset’ here. I just think it’s foolish to deal in absolutes at this early stage. Hey, you may be right, and the odds point in your favor at this point. I just think it’s a bit early to judge one way or another. Cool?
Just because I speak with authority doesn't mean I actually know what I'm talking about.
Actually that's only partial true
Just about everyone knew from the beginning who they would be, they just needed to develop into those guys. I’m with you in favor of holding off absolute judgements until further notice, and I’m in no way saying Tebow will fail, because personally I don’t think he will. But I can honestly, and accurately judge a player’s style of play at this point in their career. Now the difference is that “style of play” doesn’t mean “succeed or not” and they aren’t related. Now remember that we each knew before Big Ben’s 2nd year what type of QB he’d be, we knew he’d be a big play, low consistency guy. From week 1 of Brady we knew he’d be a control the offense, short to intermediate passer. Now there are varying levels within that style of play, if McNabb and Tebow are in the same style of play like I believe, McNabb would be on a higher level during his prime, but that doesn’t mean Tebow can’t reach his level.
We as fans need to stop building a type of QB we want and then asking Tebow to fit that mold. We need to watch Tebow and let him build his own type, which is what I tried to do. And the mold he’s building is pretty much McNabb’s, low accuracy, low turnovers, high TD’s.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Just like saying...
Peyton Manning will ALWAYS throw 28 INTs a year after his rookie season? Leave the prophesying to the Ms. Cleo…
Von Miller and Dumervil are basically racing to see who's first to the QB...Love this feeling!!!
Haha it's fine if you think that
But like I’ve said a few times, well more like a ton of times, some shallow fans confuse “style” with “results” and you just did. Throwing lots of INT’s isn’t a style, but hey, some people will say anything.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
This this on for "style"
Michael Vick’s completion percentage was 44.2% his rookie year. You know, the same QB that used to run the zone option with Warrick Dunn. That guy with the same “style” as Tebow. Well Ms. Cleo, Vick’s “resulting” for 62% this year. From your 6 game analysis of “results”, Tebow will ALWAYS have accuracy issues because of his style? Where are your facts to back that up? None? Oh ok. Your hunch is meaningless. Sadly, shallow fans like you try to say anything and predict the future. Can you please tell me the lottery numbers for next week so I can just save my $1 and not buy a ticket?
Von Miller and Dumervil are basically racing to see who's first to the QB...Love this feeling!!!
I will gladly change my opinion on Tebow's skill set and style when he changes his style
But this point, he’s checking my boxes off weekly. My biggest question to you is: Why do you want Tebow to fit your style, why can’t he just play the way he wants to, like I’m letting him? Tebow can be successful with the style he’s playing at currently, he just needs to improve in a few areas. Is that not good enough for you?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
It's clear to everyone that he needs improvement
My only problem with your statement is he’ll ALWAYS be inaccurate. Which is blasphemy to say after 6 games. I’m certain with more live game experience, it will all start to slow down for him and he’ll be able to read and react much quicker. Along with getting in better sync with all his receivers, ultimately leading to better accuracy. Let’s not overlook the fact that his young WR’s could be running incorrect routes.
Von Miller and Dumervil are basically racing to see who's first to the QB...Love this feeling!!!
You do know some QB's just aren't accurate right?
Just like some QB’s won’t be good on the roll out or some QB’s won’t be good at the deep ball, was I being blasphemious for those statements when I said them about Peyton Manning and Kyle Orton in their 2nd years? I don’t think so, because they were true, just like I’m sure about this. Oh and your excuses are wrong if you actually studied the game, he has some good synch with his WR, who are usually running good routes, oh and don’t go with the drops excuse, Tebow has the 4th best WR’s in terms of drops, so that’s not an excuse.
Tebow can succeed, like I said, I think he will, I’m just not so narrow-minded as to box Tebow up into a style that doesn’t fit him, let Tebow build his own style, like I did, it will make you happier than demanding that Tebow be accurate.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
People will see what they want to see
If 2 or 3 dropped, not overthrown but dropped, were caught, he would have been over 60% the last 2 games. He HAS thrown nice spirals, they are not “all” ducks and wobblers. I just love all those who can sit and write about “absolute” truths.
Who said he only threw ducks and wobblers?
Heck he has a nice spiral on almost all his passes. But if this were a one time incident, I’d totally agree with you, that you can’t say absolutes, but at this point Tebow keeps proving me right. Now please, I’m saying Tebow can succeed with 55% accuracy, why can’t you say that?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I finally watched the whole game
I have to say that I am impressed with this weeks performance by Tebow. While there is still work to do his play was well above what I had seen previously this year. I cannot comment on last year because I was only able to listen and not see.
Ok, so to my eyes. I saw more head up movement, meaning he was looking downfield while moving around. His release was much smoother resulting in some nice spirals with zip on them. His throws on the run were much crisper with the release coming much sooner in his motion giving the ball a nice flight. Running, he showed much more awareness of the sidelines and when he could go for extra yardage and when to give up the run, with one nice slide. I think he should be a little quicker to make that step out of bounds to avoid the hits that will eventually add up and possibly cause him mobility issues later in his career.
I will say that he mostly has been throwing ducks and wobblers with only a few nice spirals up till this past game. I am not sure what happened but it clicked and I hope he keeps it up :D I was very happy with his performance this week. +100%
The whole team played well and showed some fire and desire. I don’t expect to see the Broncos dominating because we have a tough schedule ahead but if they can continue to play on the level we just saw I will be a very happy fan!
Go Broncos!
Give Coach Fox some credit.
I mentioned it to Nick and Scooter too. You simply can not leave Fox out of the positive comments and consider your point of views objective. Here are a few thought on what happened last week and has happened since week 1.
It’s hard to leave the HC out of the STUDS category this week. I like the move to defer the kick off. Which allowed Tim Tebow to relax for a few minutes and allows the always Amped defensive players to tee off on an unstable new QB and offense. I hope he does this for the rest of the season.
Say what you will about Fox’s involvement in the offensive game plan and play calling but I’m sure that he is involved in the process and has a say.
The team lost a close game to the Raiders in Denver 9 weeks ago, gained 38yds on the ground and Orton was the starter. Last Sunday the Broncos beat the Raiders by two TDs in Oakland, gained 300yds on the ground and Tebow is now the starter. I think Honorable mention is the least you could do for the hated HC. I would go so far as to say STUD status for the win against the Raiders.
I have no idea how much influence Fox has on the offense and defense
But I do know he has two very hands on coordinators so I didn’t want to just give the credit to Fox. Allen and McCoy both did fantastic jobs, and as such, Fox gets credit for that as well, though how much he actually did is still unknown. The main reason we won was better coaching this week versus when we lost, our players were healthier, better coached and just won, Fox gets huge props for that. At this point I’d give more credit to Fox, McCoy and Allen than I would give any specific player.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Fox is the HC of an NFL team
I’m sure that he’s in all of the “necessary” meetings that determine final game plans on both sides of the ball so I’m going to give him more credit then most currently are.
Also, taking snaps from center is over rated. Take a look at the Ravens Steelers game last week as evidence. Joe Flacco was primarily in the shotgun during the 2nd half and excelled because of it. Not to mention that the team went 14 for 21 on 3rd down in large part because Joe had more time to react to the defense. Joe ultimately engineering a come from behind victory against their biggest rival, on the road and against arguably the best DC and defense in the league. Oh and by the way, Joe played primarily from the shotgun while at Delaware.
I think that some folks are putting too much emphasis on Tebow playing from under center, like it’s a prerequisite to be a QB in the NFL. There are a number of successful QBs and offenses in the league that commonly operate out of that formation. It’s becoming a necessity today partially due to the speed of today’s defensive players and the ever present blitz.
What the heck does playing under center have to do with anything I said
And just as an example, do you think Kubiak has more to say about the Texans defense than Wade Phillips and should get credit for the upturn they are seeing?
Also, once again, where’d the whole “under center” discussion come from?
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
innaccurate passer?
While I will not disagree that Tebow’s accuracy needs to improve, I wonder, does anyone else see what I’ve seen around the league, from supposed elite quarterbacks lately? On Monday night, I saw Vick overthrow WIDE OPEN receivers a few times – by 5+ yards. I think we can all agree that Rivers has also struggled with accuracy throughout his career… Elway struggled early in his career.
It is indisputable that Tebow’s completion percentage needs to get way better but it’s going to take more coaching and more experience. It’s also going to take time working with these receivers… so that they can all get on the same page with respect to running the CORRECT route, or Tim being able to work through his receiver progressions with this group.
I think that more experience will allow the game to slow down for Tebow, so he is more comfortable inside the pocket, more trusting of his o-line, on the same page with all his receivers, and able to read defenses better. After the game slows down for Tebow, I’m reasonably confident that his completion percentage will improve.
Patience is indeed a virtue….
Great writing again, max.
Time Managment. During the game this topic was driving me crazy. However I realized Tebow is a rookie, and we can’t pressure him to do fast a job he is still learning… And I really don’t remember which game I watched this weekend, but I saw some delays of game and timeouts to avoid it. So for now, it’s not a problem… I’m sure that day-by-day we’ll improve it.
On the offensive line, as I commented somewhere above, even struggling Ryan Clady is the best OLineman of the AFC West. The important is that the whole unit played very well. Orlando Franklin concerned me a lot having 2 poor games in a row, but he had a great day on sunday. That’s fantastic. I just hope to keep it, even knowing that the playcalling oriented for rush helped them a lot.
Finally our secondary played at a high level. I don’t mean Bailey picking off two balls and Harris another one… but our DBs don’t being burned several times is yet great! Carter made perhaps his best game as a Bronco calming this brazilian fan here who was concerned when saw Rahim Moore have a concussion on the first play of the game.
A point that I didn’t see anyone commenting and I really want to add is about our interior DLine. They played very well. Our pass rushing was much better than all the previous games, Doom seems to be waking up again and etc… But if we remember the season opener, their OL held our pressure easily and made several blocks to open big lanes to DMF. On sunday they hadn’t DMF, but it doesn’t matter that much since our DTs made a really good job sealing the gaps beetween the OTs.
This signature was sacked by Von Miller.
I bleed Orange & Blue.
Thanks for your thoughts
And like I said, this was the most complete game in weeks, if our team played this well regularly, we might end up winning more games, but with the inconsistencies in Tebow and the defense, I’m not sure it will be a regular thing, but we will get these games every once in a while, which will result in wins.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I don't understand the inconsistancy
There were two balls Tebow threw that looked like they were thrown by a professional QB, and they both went for touchdowns. They were great looking balls with tight spirals and proper height. Where the hell was that the rest of the game? Everbody says that Tebow will be a great QB to have rolling out but every time he throws on the run it’s duck season. Those 2 anomalous throws have me vexed though. If he could even get 60% of his throws to look like those 2 then we might have something. I just don’t know what was different about them. Did he set his feet properly, was his release different, did he follow through more? I just couldn’t tell from the broadcast.
That inconsistency is common
Especially for that type of QB. Look at Roethlisberger and McNabb and the “chunk” offense. It’s built on long, irregular plays to win. All three men struggle with consistency, and while it’s a weakness, they compensate in a variety of ways and manage to win games.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I believe
he threw much better on the run against Oakland. As I commented above, he threw very few balls that looked bad. Overall passing performance by Tebow was good to very good. His throws on the run were level and direct with a nice spiral to them. His foot placement when throwing from a straight drop looked good as well. Honestly, I would be happy with performances like that every week.
Go Broncos!
single wing
just a thought…i wonder how tebow would do in the single wing, that would surprize a few people
I think the issue that adds to his inconsistancy is his happy feet.
Sometimes I swear he is doing Markus Thomas’s false start dance. Seriously, when he sets his feet he seems to do a better job. I seem to remember several rookies having the same problem and it does not help when you can run like he can. When he threw the TD to eddie mack, uh eric decker, he set them with authority and I knew something was up. Same with eddie royal’s TD.
Well if you saw it
I expect Tim and the coaches did too, especially since they spend a LOT of time looking at the film. I would expect this to improve as the season goes on and really take a jump going into next season.










































