Relatively Speaking About the Denver Broncos (Part One)
Tunesmith, in his article "The 2010 Roster - Approximate Value" took a look at the Broncos 2010 roster using the Approximate Value rating system developed by Doug Drinen of Pro-football-reference.com (PFR). Tunesmith took the scores generated by the AV system and divided the roster into twelve categories, ranging from "The Scrubs" to "The Pro Bowlers" to "The Tigger." I'd recommend that you take the time to read Tunesmith's article.
After talking to both Tunesmith and a representative named Neil from PFR, and having just taken a look at the rosters from Denver's six Super Bowl appearances, I thought it might be fun to compare the Approximate Value ratings for the starting offense and defense from each of those six seasons. I also thought it might be fun to apply that system to the Broncos' starting rosters from 2005 (the last time Denver played in the AFC Championship game) to 2010 (that shipwreck of a season which was just completed), the 2005-10 rating will appear in part two of this series.
Take a jump with me and see what kinds of surprises might await us.
Before we get into how the twenty-two Broncos starters fared in the seasons under consideration, it would serve us well to take a brief look at the Approximate Value system. If you want to see the complete explanation of the system, it may be found here -- please note, it is a multi-part explanation of the math which generates the rating.
The AV system was developed by a mathematician by the name of Doug Drinen. He liked the approximate value system that had been developed as a metric for baseball players and wanted to create an equivalent rating system for football. Doug gives this brief explanation of the system:
"AV is not meant to be a be-all end-all metric. Football stat lines just do not come close to capturing all the contributions of a player the way they do in baseball and basketball. If one player is a 16 and another is a 14, we can't be very confident that the 16AV player actually had a better season than the 14AV player. But I am pretty confident that the collection of all players with 16AV played better, as an entire group, than the collection of all players with 14AV."
He goes on to say:
"Essentially, AV is a substitute for --- and a significant improvement upon, in my opinion --- metrics like 'number of seasons as a starter' or 'number of times making the pro bowl' or the like. You should think of it as being essentially like those two metrics, but with interpolation in between. That is, 'number of seasons as a starter' is a reasonable starting point if you're trying to measure, say, how good a particular draft class is, or what kind of player you can expect to get with the #13 pick in the draft. But obviously some starters are better than others. Starters on good teams are, as a group, better than starters on bad teams. Starting WRs who had lots of receiving yards are, as a group, better than starting WRs who did not have many receiving yards. Starters who made the pro bowl are, as a group, better than starters who didn't, and so on. And non-starters aren't worthless, so they get some points too."
I was intrigued with the way that Tunesmith has divided up the ratings, so I went to the PFR website to see if they had created a similar categorical explanation. When I could not find one, I contacted them to see if I was simply missing where they had placed a categorical description, mentioning the types of categories created by Tunesmith. Neil at PFR responded with this comment:
"It varies a lot by position -- like you said, it ranks all players relative to each other -- so a good Approximate Value for a safety isn't the same as a good AV for a quarterback."
He went on to say that, perhaps, the staff at PFR should look into creating a generalized guideline like the one I has asked about. I thanked him and turned my attention back to Tunesmith's categories. About an hour later I received an email from Neil offering this:
A very vague guide across all positions would be like:
20-25 = MVP
14-19 = All-Pro/Pro Bowl
8-13 = Starter
3-7 = Backup
0-2 = Scrub
I just made that up off the top of my head, so it's probably wanting in many ways. And again, the mileage varies greatly by position, so a starting QB is more of a 10-12 and a starting safety is a 7-8. It makes sense, because a QB is generally regarded as having more impact than a S.
So, keeping in mind that the numbers are very relative -- players on good teams will score higher than players on bad teams, some positions will score higher than others, even though players at those positions may be roughly equivalent -- we will take a look at how the twenty-two players that were the primary starters for the offensive and defensive units fared in the rankings. First, I will present the basic ratings, then we'll take a look at how they compare. It should be noted that I rather arbitrarily chose to omit the kickers, punters and return men.
| Pos | Name | AV | Pos | Name | AV | |
| QB | Craig Morton | 12 | LDE | Barney Chavous | 8 | |
| RB | Otis Armstrong | 7 | NT | Reuben Carter | 14 | |
| FB | Jon Keyworth | 4 | RDE | Lyle Alzado | 18 | |
| WR | Haven Moses | 8 | LOLB | Bob Swenson | 9 | |
| WR | Jack Dolbin | 7 | LiLB | Joe Rizzo | 9 | |
| TE | Riley Odoms | 10 | RILB | Randy Gradishar | 18 | |
| LT | Andy Maurer | 7 | ROLB | Tom Jackson | 16 | |
| LG | Tom Glassic | 7 | LCB | Louis Wright | 13 | |
| C | Mike Montler | 7 | RCB | Steve Foley | 8 | |
| RG | Paul Howard | 7 | SS | Bill Thompson | 18 | |
| RT | Claudie Minor | 9 | FS | Bernard Jackson | 8 |
| Pos | Name | AV | Pos | Name | AV | |
| QB | John Elway | 14 | LDE | Andre Townsend | 7 | |
| RB | Sammy Winder | 6 | NT | Greg Kragen | 6 | |
| FB | Gerald Wilhite | 9 | RDE | Rulon Jones | 15 | |
| WR | Vance Johnson | 4 | LOLB | Jim Ryan | 5 | |
| WR | Steve Watson | 7 | LILB | Karl Mecklenberg | 14 | |
| TE | Clarence Kay | 4 | RILB | Ricky Hunley | 6 | |
| LT | Dave Studdard | 8 | ROLB | Tom Jackson | 5 | |
| LG | Keith Bishop | 8 | LCB | Louis Wright | 6 | |
| C | Bill Bryan | 7 | RCB | Mike Hardin | 8 | |
| RG | Paul Howard | 6 | SS | Dennis Smith | 9 | |
| RT | Ken Lanier | 8 | FS | Steve Foley | 6 |
| Pos | Name | AV | Pos | Name | AV | |
| QB | John Elway | 14 | LDE | Andre Townsend | 5 | |
| RB | Sammy Winder | 6 | NT | Greg Kragen | 5 | |
| FB | Gene Lang | 4 | RDE | Rulon Jones | 7 | |
| WR | Vance Johnson | 7 | LOLB | Simon Fletcher | 7 | |
| WR | Mark Jackson | 4 | LILB | Karl Mecklenberg | 13 | |
| TE | Clarence Kay | 6 | RILB | Ricky Hunley | 7 | |
| LT | Dave Studdard | 9 | ROLB | Jim Ryan | 8 | |
| LG | Keith Bishop | 8 | LCB | Mark Haynes | 7 | |
| C | Mike Freeman | 5 | RCB | Mike Hardin | 7 | |
| RG | Stefan Humphries | 4 | SS | Dennis Smith | 4 | |
| RT | Ken Lanier | 7 | FS | Tony Lilly | 5 |
| Pos | Name | AV | Pos | Name | AV | |
| QB | John Elway | 12 | LDE | Alphonso Carreker | 9 | |
| RB | Bobby Humphrey | 10 | NT | Greg Kragen | 13 | |
| FB | Jeff Alexander | 2 | RDE | Andre Townsend | 6 | |
| WR | Mark Jackson | 4 | LOLB | Simon Fletcher | 10 | |
| WR | Vance Johnson | 11 | LILB | Karl Mecklenberg | 20 | |
| TE | Clarence Kay | 4 | RILB | Rick Dennison | 7 | |
| LT | Gerald Perry | 8 | ROLB | Michael Brooks | 9 | |
| LG | Doug Widell | 5 | LCB | Tyrone Braxton | 9 | |
| C | Keith Kartz | 7 | RCB | Wymon Henderson | 8 | |
| RG | Jim Juriga | 7 | SS | Dennis Smith | 14 | |
| RT | Ken Lanier | 9 | FS | Steve Atwater | 9 |
| Pos | Name | AV | Pos | Name | AV | |
| QB | John Elway | 18 | LDE | Neil Smith | 12 | |
| RB | Terrell Davis | 19 | LDT | Keith Traylor | 8 | |
| FB | Howard Griffith | 1 | RDT | Michael Dean Perry | 5 | |
| WR | Ed McCaffrey | 7 | RDE | Alfred Williams | 9 | |
| WR | Rod Smith | 15 | LLB | Bill Romanowski | 8 | |
| TE | Shannon Sharpe | 17 | MLB | Allen Aldridge | 7 | |
| LT | Gary Zimmerman | 9 | RLB | John Mobley | 17 | |
| LG | Mark Schlereth | 6 | LCB | Ray Crockett | 6 | |
| C | Tom Nalen | 11 | RCB | Darrien Gordon | 17 | |
| RG | Brian Habib | 7 | SS | Tyrone Braxton | 7 | |
| RT | Tony Jones | 10 | FS | Steve Atwater | 6 |
| Pos | Name | AV | Pos | Name | AV | |
| QB | John Elway | 14 | LDE | Neil Smith | 7 | |
| RB | Terrell Davis | 22 | LDT | Keith Traylor | 7 | |
| FB | Howard Griffith | 1 | RDT | Trevor Pryce | 8 | |
| WR | Ed McCaffrey | 14 | RDE | Maa Tanuvasa | 9 | |
| WR | Rod Smith | 17 | LLB | Bill Romanowski | 11 | |
| TE | Shannon Sharpe | 13 | MLB | Glenn Cadrez | 7 | |
| LT | Tony Jones | 14 | RLB | John Mobley | 8 | |
| LG | Mark Schlereth | 11 | LCB | Ray Crockett | 7 | |
| C | Tom Nalen | 11 | RCB | Darrien Gordon | 8 | |
| RG | Dan Neil | 9 | SS | Eric Brown | 5 | |
| RT | Harry Swayne | 10 | FS | Steve Atwater | 9 |
Looking Behind the Numbers
When we look at the way the starters break down into the categories suggested by PFR, we find:
| Team | 1977 | 1986 | 1987 | 1989 | 1997 | 1998 |
| Margin of Win/Loss | -17 | -19 | -32 | -45 | +7 | +15 |
| MVP (20-25) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| All Pro/Pro Bowl (14-19) | 6 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 6 | 4 |
| Starter (8-13) | 9 | 6 | 3 | 12 | 7 | 11 |
| Backup (3-7) | 7 | 13 | 17 | 7 | 8 | 5 |
| Scrub (0-2) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| Team Average | 10.2 | 7.6 | 6.8 | 8.8 | 10.1 | 10.1 |
It is interesting to note that as the Broncos average AV rating declined, the margin of loss in the Super Bowl games increased. We did see a surge in the average in the 1989 team, but strangely enough we saw the largest margin of loss in that Super Bowl. It is also interesting to note that in our two Super Bowl wins, the team averaged an AV rating of 10 or better.
| Offense | 1977 | 1986 | 1987 | 1989 | 1997 | 1998 |
| Margin of Win/Loss | -17 | -19 | -32 | -45 | +7 | +15 |
| MVP (20-25) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 |
| All Pro/Pro Bowl (14-19) | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 4 | 4 |
| Starter (8-13) | 4 | 4 | 2 | 4 | 3 | 4 |
| Backup (3-7) | 7 | 6 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 1 |
| Scrub (0-2) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 1 |
| Offensive Unit Average | 7.7 | 7.4 | 6.7 | 7.2 | 10.9 | 12.4 |
This set of ratings was interesting to me. In the four Super Bowl losses, our offense averaged an AV rating that was in, or just barely out of the "backup" range while in the two wins, the offensive average was solidly in the "starter" range. It can be seen that our lowest offensive averages (6.7 and 7.2) correspond to the worst of the Super Bowl defeats, while the highest averages correspond to the wins.
| Defense | 1977 | 1986 | 1987 | 1989 | 1997 | 1998 |
| Margin of Win/Loss | -17 | -19 | -32 | -45 | +7 | +15 |
| MVP (20-25) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| All Pro/Pro Bowl (14-19) | 6 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 0 |
| Starter (8-13) | 5 | 2 | 1 | 8 | 4 | 7 |
| Backup (3-7) | 0 | 7 | 9 | 2 | 5 | 4 |
| Scrub (0-2) | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
| Defensive Unit Average | 12.6 | 7.9 | 6.9 | 10.4 | 9.4 | 7.8 |
This set of ratings took me by surprise. There is the old football adage that offense sells tickets but defense wins championships (roughly paraphrased). It is fairly common to hear people state the second half of that adage: defense wins championships. Yet, in every case where the defense average higher than the offense, the Broncos lost, while in the two games where the offensive average was higher, the Broncos won. In four of the six games, including the two wins, the team averaged in the Starter range. Only in the two wins did the offensive unit average in the Starter range. The defensive unit averaged in the Starter range in two of the losses and one of the wins.
When all is said and done, and the relative nature of the AV ratings are kept in mind, we are left with a picture of the Broncos that suggests -- for them at least -- the path to winning the Super Bowl was to put together a stronger offense than defense -- but not too much out of balance.
In part two of this series we will look at the starters from 2005 to 2010 to look for any patterns that may have affected the Broncos' fortunes.
24 comments
|
5 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I'm having trouble figuring out how Howard Griffith is a scrub?
He had massive impacts in both Super Bowls. At the very least he should be ranked a “starter”. Just my opinion there. :)
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
My guess is that it has to do with the fact that the AV score is generated
If I’m understanding this right, the AV is generated based on the stats from the total year and rushers who amassed less than the league average received a penalty to their score. Griffith only had 9 rushes for 34 yards in 1997, and 4 rushes for 13 yards in 1998.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 7, 2011 10:35 PM MST up reply actions
Thanks Brian...
But this is why I never take stats for everything. Clearly, we all know Griffith was a KEY part of our offense, yet using stats, he grades as a scrub. This simply is not true.
Alos, AV only takes into account the team you are analyzing. Sure, Denver did better when our offense was higher in AV, but it does not take into account the strength of the other teams.
For example, the 1977 team may have been the best Bronco’s team of all time, yet the other teams in the NFL at the time may have been better as well. In 1998, Denver was one of the class teams, but also, other teams in the NFL may have been weak which allowed Denver to succeed with a great system and coaching and above average talent.
Dont get me wrong, fascinating read, I just think AV does not consider all the variable so it makes me nervous making conclusions from it.
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
YQW, boydy
As with any metric — take it with a grain of salt, so to speak.
While it is mainly true that the AV method focuses on the team being analyzed, it does add bonuses and subtracts penalties for the skill positions based on relationships to league averages in things such as yards/rush for rushers — so in that regard, it does compare the player to the league. Also players, such as o-linemen receive bonuses for being voted All Pro and/or Pro Bowl in that particular season (see my comment below about Smith, Atwater & Jackson, for example).
As a generalized metric goes, I like this one more than most that I’ve seen. Doesn’t mean it’s perfect, just better than ranking players by yards or yards/whatever or receptions, etc.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Cool Brian....always enjoy your stuff. You know I am the anti stats guy but you bring solid arguments and always LOVE the discussion!
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Rec'd and thanks Brian!
Have to read more carefully tomorrow though. I promised an early bedtime. That’s a fail so far (thanks to you :-), but I’ve got to try now.
LOL, sorry to make you miss your bedtime
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
by Brian Shrout on Feb 7, 2011 10:37 PM MST up reply actions
defensive ratings are bizarre
How is Dennis Smith rated as a 9 a 4 and finally a 14.he should have been rated consistently as a pro bowler especially the years are 1986, 1987 and 1989…he was a stud all three years….this rating system is a joke.
Atwater rated as a 9, a 6 and a 9….the guy made like 8 pro bowls…..who developed this kermit the frog……
Tom Jackson a 5….really???? What a waste of time.
by atwaterassassin27 on Feb 7, 2011 10:54 PM MST reply actions
Not saying I agree, but I can understand
Smith drew the 4 (1987), Atwater drew his 6 (1997), and Jackson drew his 5 (1986) in years where non of them were named to the Pro Bowl nor the All Pro team. Smith had the 2nd fewest tackles in his career, Atwater the 3rd fewest of his career and Jackson was in his last year of playing, which also happened to be his lowest statistically.
Again, not saying I necessarily agree, but I can see why the formula worked out the way it did in those particular years.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
thanks, TS
And thanks for bringing the concept into the light in your post.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Interesting about PFR’s categories. I think that the 2010 scores for Denver were probably a bit depressed/flattened across the board because the team was so collectively bad. Get a couple more great players on the team, and several other players scores would probably increase.
You could well be right
though I think you’ll find a couple of surprises when you see 2010 compared to a couple of the years from 2005-09. :)
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
isn't this...
…the numbers are very relative — players on good teams will score higher than players on bad teams…
hugely problematic? it seems about like saying ‘guys with more money are better money makers because they are richer’ or something circular like that. it’s an entire concept built on a foundation of oatmeal. i don’t know. but what the heck, i declare that tom nalen is a 16 anyway.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
To degree, I think it IS problematic
This is why the authors were careful to call it “approximate” value — because there is a degree of relativity built in.
I’m inclined to believe that this is also why they never assigned categories to the values until I asked about it.
The relativity has more to do with how different positions relate to each other than how the players relate to other teams’ players. I will go into more detail with this in part two of this series, since it has come up, but at a simple level, using the offense as an example:
Each team has set of points to allocate to their offensive players. The number of points is determined by a formula, called offensive points per estimated drive (OPPED):
(OPPED = ((7*TDs+3*FieldGoalsMade)/(TDs+FGAttempts+Punts+Turnovers))/TheLeague’sOPPED)*100.
Those offensive points are then divided among the offensive players based on a weighted scale derived from the percentage of draft value chart points NFL teams have historically used on each position.
The other thing the authors are careful to point out is that they have, and most likely will, continue to “tweak” the method to obtain the best results they can.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Very interesting stuff Brian. Thanks
It’s interesting how the stats can jump out at ya. It takes a team effort to win. All players have their strengths and weaknesses. With the right bunch of guys playing as a team they’re able to come up with a winning combination. It’s the same as in my line of work (I’m a chef) I know that when you put all the right ingrediants into the pot you can come out with a tasty stew.
We conquered this territory with our bodies and souls, then we watered it with our tears.
Go Denver!
This is interesting because it must include the players who started at the beginning of the season. For example, before Super Bowl 32 Michael Dean Perry was cut and did not finish the season with the Broncos (Actually finished it with Kansas City I believe.)
Don't believe everything you read
by RockyMountainThunder on Feb 8, 2011 12:51 PM MST reply actions
Good point
However, PFR rated his AV separately for the 9 games he played in with the Broncos (an AV of 4) and the 1 game he played for KC (an AV of 1).
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Further, I'm guessing
that the “starting lineup” has to do with either the depth chart as it stood at the beginning of the season (which I think would be the most likely case) or the starter for each position who played the most games as the starter at that position during the course of that given year.
We live in an age when instant gratification isn't fast enough
Way interesting BShrout, rec'd
Great read and thanks for the research.
I’ve been thinking for 30+ years we should have won SBXII if there’s been just a little more offense.
It is a little hard to see Atwater rated so low for some of those years. He, D Smith and Billy Thompson were the best safeties to ever wear a Broncos uniform.
AND, just my personal opinion – RANDY GRADISHAR NEEDS TO BE IN THE HOF!!!
I've been bleedin' orange and blue since Floyd Little in '71-'72 and will 'til the day I die!
Bring back the Orange Crush!
I’ve been thinking for 30+ years we should have won SBXII if there’s been just a little more offense.
They really could’ve won that game. Did you happen to see Tom Jackson during this last SB week talking about his SB experience as a player, and how the O line (I believe he said O line but could’ve been D) went out and got plastered the night before the game? He said it still makes him mad to this day and said he didn’t mind talking about it because “those guys know who they are.” i had never heard that before, but yeah, it even kind of bugs me as a fan… oh well…
I'm not sugarcoating this.

by 






































