A Few Good Minutes With... Denver Broncos President Joe Ellis
by John Bena on Mar 13, 2011 9:55 PM MDT
in A Few Good Questions With...
Email
PrintIn our darkest hour, when everyone feels as though the NFL Owners and it's players have forgotten about the fans, one team hasn't - our Denver Broncos. Thanks to you - and the power of the MHR Community - Joe Ellis, President of the Denver Broncos - took some time to talk with me - and you - about the failed CBA negotiations, where things stand with the business of the Denver Broncos and what the future holds - whether there is a quick agreement to come or will this thing drag on into the season.
I was fortunate enough to talk with Mr. Ellis for about 20 minutes on Saturday afternoon This time was valuable to me because Ellis is one of the few people that was actually in the room - and part of conference calls and meetings with Broncos owner Pat Bowlen - throughout the past 17 days of negotiations. It was clear to me that he - and Mr. Bowlen - are just as disappointed with the current state of affairs in the NFL as we all are.
Here is what we talked about:
MHR - What would you say to fans right now about what went on the past few weeks and what it means for the future?
Joe Ellis: We would say, Mr. Bowlen and the Organization would say a couple of things. We'd say, first of all, sorry it has come to this. It never should have. Number two, if you are frustrated angry and disappointed, we share the same levels of those three things as you do. Those words don't sooth the disappointment people are going through, but we do, we are not happy about where we are. We would have preferred to have a deal, or at least kept negotiating and not gone down this path of litigation.
Having said that, we as an organization, we are still runnin' and gunnin'. We've got a Draft coming up, we've got full expectation that we'll be playing games in 2011, even with what came out of yesterday, and we are going to operate that way and we are going to get ready to put the best team we can on the field in 2011 and we look forward to playing games.
MHR - That said, Friday's events do nothing to effect the 'day-to-day' operations of the football team?
Joe Ellis: No, it really doesn't. We can't slow down in preparations for the Draft. We have to be prepared in the event that cooler heads prevail and we come back and we can sit down and hammer out an agreement which is what I think both sides ultimately need, understand and want. Even though the union leadership is seemingly taking it down a different track right now - what happened yesterday unfortunately is part of the process, we've got to put up with it, go through with it, and eventually, I think, when level heads prevail and people become more reasoned we'll get back to the table and hammer out a deal.
MHR - You mentioned that 'this is part of the process.' While there are ups and downs in all negotiations, why do you think both sides should go through all of this if the desired result is to get a deal done?
Joe Ellis: I can't answer that. I know the NFL's Management Council Executive Committee was committed to collective bargaining. Whether or not the other side was, they'd have to answer that.
I don't disagree with, and Mr. Bowlen believes this, having sat in on all the meetings and various conference calls that took place over the past 17 days, let alone the past 2 years, that the union's intent was to negotiate to a final deal at this point. They clearly had a goal to go down a path of litigation. They would argue otherwise and that's fine, but I will tell you the Owners are unified in their belief that this was the union's plan all along. Frankly, I believe the owners were prepared for that, it's unfortunate, it's distasteful to the public - especially our fans - we understand that, we share the same frustration they do, but here we are and we have to deal with it. It is part of the process we have to be prepared for.
We can't slow down in preparing for the 2011 season. we believe as I said earlier that reasonable minds will gather and we can get together, hammer out a deal and play games in 2011.
MHR - What gives you the confidence to say there will be football in 2011? Is that wishful thinking or do you truly believe we'll play football?
Joe Ellis: I think today it might be wishful thinking, but as days go past and some of the issues and aspects of litigation begin to unfold in the coming weeks that the winds may change. I don't know what's going to happen, no one can predict what's going to happen in the court system, it's complicated - frankly the public is not interested in it, our fans, your readers are not interested in that - they are interested in football games in 2011, so are we, but we have to obviously, in the interest of the game and the interest of the organization, pay attention to what is going on.
The hope is, Mr. Bowlen believes this, we believe this, that as the litigation plays itself out, hopefully it will lead people to believe the best way to get this resolved and put it behind us is to get back at the table, collectively bargain and come to a new agreement and play games in 2011. That's how we are moving forward and planning to proceed right now.
MHR - We have heard a lot about 'The Books'. The owners have said we gave the union the information, the union has said it was useless. It seems the NFL made a pretty good offer yesterday - what else do you feel the union can want?
Joe Ellis: I guess it's just a level of distrust that's frankly disappointing. Here's what happened and these are facts:
The owners offered to show the union league-wide and club profitability data and they offered to have it verified by a mutually agreed upon, 3rd-party auditor - a neutral verifier. The information they are offering up to the union we can't even get that amongst ourselves.
For example, the Denver Broncos don't know how it's competitors - the Chiefs, Chargers, Raiders - how they are operating, what their profitability is, we never see that. All this was offered up - league-wide and individual club profitability data, and the union didn't want to look at it. They'll have to answer why, but they said it just wasn't enough. They've had more financial information offered to them than they've had offered in any previous negotiation, there's labor law that dictates the level of financial transparency required in collective bargaining. We'll follow and support those principles. I think plenty was offered up. Why they didn't want to take it? Perhaps doing that, in this case, went against what their PR plan was, or their roll out plan of their litigation - they'll have to speak to that.
To say that all the information was utterly useless, or whatever the union leader said, I can't remember his exact words, I think is misguided and disingenuous.
MHR - How big of an impact did the TV-Revenue Ruling have on the negotiations?
Joe Ellis: I don't think it impacted the negotiations one bit. I think it served as a useful piece of propaganda towards the union's public relations campaign. In terms of how it affected negotiations - none. How it affected every club's position moving forward - not at all. Everybody had contingency plans to deal with, either a lockout or playing a season depending on what was going to happen anyway. So, the TV money... we're preparing for 2011 - all scenarios. That particular case, they are trumpeting that as a great victory but it really has no affect on the clubs whatsoever.
MHR - Have you been impressed, even surprised, with how John Elway has fit in with his new role as V.P. of the Broncos?
Joe Ellis: I'm not surprised at all. I think that there was this public perception that this was some kind of P.R. move on behalf of Mr. Bowlen and the team. I knew from talking with him the past several years how deeply invested he would place himself in the football side of the organization, and how excited and how eager he was to immerse himself totally into this. No one's been working harder, no one's been having more fun, nobody cares more about the Denver Broncos than John Elway. He came to Denver in 1983 and never left. He want's to help bring the Broncos back to the same level of prominence we had the year he retired.
I'm not surprised by it at all. It's been an enormous bonus for us inside our building, obviously it's had it's benefits outside the building because of the stature and aura that John carries, but I think for all those that underestimated the impact it would have inside our building, they would be pleasantly surprised at how positive it has become for us, for the Denver Broncos.
MHR - At what point does a work stoppage have an affect on the Broncos?
Joe Ellis: We're going to survive and the League is going to survive. That is not the worry here. The worry is, when does this begin to affect fans and that started Friday night. So our worry level begins. Where it really gets bad for fans is when we get to the meat of our season, that to me starts with Training Camp. We still have the Draft. When it really starts to hurt fans deeply, that comes later in the summer I think.
But hey, listen, they're hurt by yesterday(Friday). They love this game, follow it 365 days per year, we know that. We understand the passion they have for the Broncos and for them the hurt began Friday night. They are disappointed and angry and we need to get back to the business of doing right by them and that'll start with everyone getting back to the table, collectively bargaining, and coming to an agreement moving forward.
MHR - There is plenty of anger, frustration and disappointment with the fans right now. If they were sitting next to me, what would you say to them?
Joe Ellis: I would say, first of all, I agree completely. Our feelings are identical. We feel a deal should be done and it shouldn't be this hard to get a deal done. The only thing I can say is, I hope that they follow along with our belief that eventually we sort this mess out and we play football in 2011. We are preparing as if that's going to happen. We have a Draft coming up, we're evaluating our team with the effort of John Elway, John Fox, Brian Xanders, all of our scouts and all of our pro personnel people.
We are not slowing down. It is Mr. Bowlen's hope, it is the organization's hope, that we are back on the field in time for Training Camp and the start of the 2011 season. Hopefully we get this thing sorted out well in advance of that, I think that would be in the best interest of all parties - players, owners, fans, everybody - to get it back on track and that's our goal.
Believe me, that doesn't diminish what everyone is feeling today - the three words you just mentioned(anger, frustration and disappointment) - and that's how we feel. But we have a job to do, we have to get over it starting right now, move forward and get ready to play in 2011.
At the League level our hope is the owners and players will get themselves balanced and get back together, cooler heads will prevail - I know the owners are ready to do that, let's hope the players are ready to do that.
I want to thank the Denver Broncos and Mr. Ellis for taking time to speak directly to us, the fans. Here's hoping this is a door that remains open - even when labor peace returns - and Mile High Report can continue to be your direct link to the Denver Broncos. It is the power that you, the members of Broncos Country, have. MHR is just an avenue we can use.
GO BRONCOS!
193 comments
|
12 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Equal time for union reps too?
Hopefully so.
Overheard during Nuggets radio broadcasts in the 80's: "....Hanzlik.....HEY HANZLIK...don't ever dribble the ball again or I'll bench your ass!" Doug Moe
DenverStiffs.com
Follow me on twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/jmorton78
by Jeffrey Morton on Mar 13, 2011 10:10 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I bite my tongue....yet still say screw the unions at this point.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Mar 13, 2011 10:48 PM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
equal time would be welcome
because i’m having trouble seeing their point of view.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
Florio's Piece On This Is Worth The Read
It appears to be just a little more complicated than the owners made it out to be. When it becomes he said/he said I just generally go back to who wanted to change the rules. In this case it was clearly the owners. Demanding a huge giveback, then saying I’ll take half of that can hardly be called a compromise.
(“It seems the NFL made a pretty good offer yesterday – what else do you feel the union can want?” Is that the definition of a Brownnose question?). Uh how about an actual reason for massive givebacks backed up by audited books instead of “You need to just take our word for it”.
by John in Castle Rock on Mar 14, 2011 9:23 AM MDT up reply actions
The union rep for the Broncos is Kyle Orton
We all know what kind of leadership he will show. Besides I have seen enough with the “lawsuit.” The players got more than what they wanted and they walked anyway. The owners were giving and negotiating.
This seems like a stab at Orton
I don’t get the hate for him. He played hard for us. I think in a number of years we will be more nostalgic about him. Probably a little like Jake the Snake. No need to bash a good Bronco!
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 12:52 PM MDT up reply actions
I would welcome...
the opportunity to speak with anyone at the NFLPA or the Broncos union rep…
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Follow MHR on Twitter!
Follow MHR on Facebook!
XBox Gamertag - MileHighReport
Playstation Gamertag - TheSportsGuru
don't hold your breath.
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
not loving the players view from here... but who reakky knows
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 13, 2011 11:02 PM MDT up reply actions
lol, no I'm in Whidbey, WA. The Islands... you in Texas?
(I AM a secret Cowboys fan – for the NFC)
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 14, 2011 7:00 AM MDT up reply actions
Not in Texas either...
…still, I am a secret Cowboys fan as well. My NFC team since I started watching football.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 7:20 AM MDT up reply actions
lol my Dad's a Cowboy fan, I actually became a fan when Morton went to the Broncos and then Superbowled the Cowboys just as we moved to Denver...
Staubach and Elway. BIG heroes of mine.
Dorsett & Charlie Waters too… (Reeves)
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 14, 2011 6:16 PM MDT up reply actions
Damn close
to my experience :)
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
I will be in a month. I'll be in Houston
I thought it was you that was saying you lived down on South Padre Island.
27--29--11 May all your spirits rest in peace.
Players might have stricter rules
Because of how they want to see things play out. But if you can get Ellis for an interview, I’m sure you can get a player like Orton, or another team captain.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Mar 14, 2011 12:14 AM MDT up reply actions
you'd think, right?
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 14, 2011 7:01 AM MDT up reply actions
I don’t know what’s going to happen, no one can predict what’s going to happen in the court system, it’s complicated – frankly the public is not interested in it, our fans, your readers are not interested in that – they are interested in football games in 2011, so are we, but we have to obviously, in the interest of the game and the interest of the organization, pay attention to what is going on.
Actually sir, the hardcore fans like us ARE interested…..I know we are a small demographic, however. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
My wife actually jumped for joy...no me going crazy for 4 months out of the year. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
Wives? Interesting concept
perhaps I should get one between now and April 6, she strikes my fancy 
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Mar 14, 2011 12:30 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
That makes at least two of us
I really believe that there are many (leastwise in MHR) who have demonstrated to be intensely interested in the big picture, and we have to really question why Joe Ellis (obviously the second biggest voice with the Broncos FO) would actually think and even say that we’re only interested in the narrow picture of NFL football games in 2011.
There is obviously a disconnect here, which makes me now wonder, what are the odds that this was the only disconnect? What if his disconnect was actually shared with Bowlen, and, by extension, with a chunk of other owners or owner reps? Remember the headlines with the contention that was made public between Jerry Richardson (owner of the Panthers) and Peyton Manning? Wasn’t there already at least one strong tempest brewing in the teapot in early February of 2011?
You know, with both sides trying so hard to get the fans to side with them now, why didn’t both sides try harder to negotiate with each other? Why did it always seem that neither side wanted to budge even an inch, prior to Friday, when it was obviously too late by then? Hmm?
By the way, my respect for Joe Ellis just increased 10-fold.
I distrusted him, not really hearing much from him, but now I feel better about his role with my favorite team. Not that my opinion matters. lol
Verbose in style, dispersion of thought, procrastination in life.
The artist formerly known as ZAPPA
by Tim Lynch on Mar 13, 2011 11:00 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Hey Tim...
I felt exactly the same way as you towards Ellis… Starting to feel I may have miss judged him.
oc60
"I'd rather have a lot of talent and a little experience than a lot of experience and a little talent."
" Adversity is Your Asset" "Make Greatness Attainable By All"
"The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team."
John Wooden
Agree Zappa....
As far as the business end, he knows his shit, and he seemed forthright and honest. I am not taking everything he says as gospel, as it only comes from the Bronco’s perspective.
My deal is I NEVER liked De Smith from the get go. Came off as disingenuous, slimy and a talker, and this article only confrims my feelings for him and the players union.
I am angry at both sides, but the NFLPA is reeking at the moment. I have absolutely NO support for the players on this (apart from retired players, but I am doubting the NFLPA on the legitimacy of their support for them) and, frankly, I hope they get skanked, just like they are doing to the fans.
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
by boydy2669 on Mar 14, 2011 6:00 AM MDT up reply actions 3 recs
That’s exactly how I felt about De Smith when i first laid eyes on him. At the time, I was hoping he wouldn’t get elected as the head of the Union. He just looks slimy weasel, vindictive and full of unexpressed resentment towards those who are more successful than he is. But he sure made himself an important figure now, didn’t he?
Great work John Bena...
Lets hope something good happens during the next few weeks.
Again, thanks John
oc60
"I'd rather have a lot of talent and a little experience than a lot of experience and a little talent."
" Adversity is Your Asset" "Make Greatness Attainable By All"
"The main ingredient of stardom is the rest of the team."
John Wooden
Great post John and thanks to Joe for giving you some time
Well said by Ellis, I like the Broncos’ attitude in this situation.
Julian from Australia
This is the kind of stuff
that makes me proud to be a Broncos fan. I am eternally grateful to have Bowlen as our owner.
Thank you John for the intelligent questions. Thank you Joe for taking the time to answer them and enlighten us further on the situation.
wow
Does anyone else have the same reaction I did on reading this, namely, “What a jerk.” ?
There were so many passive-aggressive and snarky comments about the players and the unions that I mistook him my college ex-girlfriend, sophomore year. This guy is so desperately trying to turn everyone around to the owners side and not even allowing one glimmer of possibility that the players might be right about something, somewhere. By granting this interview and approaching it as he did, he’s clearly trying to play us. This was totally overt and disrespectful, and an insult to our intelligence. That’s how I feel, anyway.
by tunesmith on Mar 14, 2011 12:18 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
I'm a huge Bowlen fan
But Ellis seems to be hurting himself with each interview. While at times with this interview, he seems to try and connect with the fans, a major company line since Elway joined, he still showed at times he seemed to treat fans like children, and while I don’t mind the lockout as much as most, and am pro-owner, Ellis just seems to get under my skin.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
I actually got the opposite from it. I thought it was well done and even though he couldn't give all the answers he was fairly tactful IMO.
Everyone knows how the owners feel about the union and its decision to litigate but he didn’t really point the finger (if not implicitly) and just stated what we all knew but in a slightly more positive way.
Tim Tebow wears 3WM and drinks Tuscan whole milk.
by BroncoMath101 on Mar 14, 2011 7:26 AM MDT up reply actions
No, the players can rot in hell for all I care...De Smith is the villain here, make no mistake!
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Don't forget
The owners have been planning for this for two years. The owners are the ones that opted out of the agreement. Whatever your feelings are or what side you support, Both sides have war plans in place and they intend to follow them. Be sure that the owners planned on dropping an open agreement on the union at a critical time.
Both sides are to blame and we are just pawns.
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on Mar 14, 2011 6:12 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
right. I wish I knew the truth. Preparing for a problem doesn't mean they are wrong though. Only that they saw it coming.
If the players turn our precious NFL into a MLB-like league… I’ll riot.
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 14, 2011 7:04 AM MDT up reply actions
The NFL union is the weakest of any in professional sports. The MLB union is the strongest. Look no further than the salary cap that one league has and the other does not or the guaranteed vs non-guaranteed contracts.
Your fears are unfounded here.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 8:06 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Absolutely McGeorge
plus the players want a cap because if there’s no cap, there’s no floor. Andrew Brandt says 2010 was a bad year for the players and the uncapped issue is why
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Mar 14, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
Sure hope you guys are right!
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so. DA
by Whidbey Bronco on Mar 14, 2011 6:19 PM MDT up reply actions
I said that above....as I have mentioned in another post, none of these knuckle heads could take the high ground...
Owners started it, the NFLPA perpetuated it, the owners attempted a last minute deal which the NFLPA was NEVER going to take as they wanted to litigate. I also believe the NFL KNEW they would not take the deal, and the players WONT get a better offer. Both suck!
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
Do you want to know who DOESN'T SUCK
boydy2669!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Mar 14, 2011 12:32 PM MDT up reply actions
You are so volatile. It’s hard to take you seriously when you change your mind and opinion on a dime.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
That's Boydy
He’s a passionate guy….it is easy to take him seriously in perspective. He probably thinks along the same path as I do about this mess:
stage 1: Owners are going to lock out the players and won’t show them the books…what jerks!
stage 2: a judge says that the TV arrangement was “bad”. Okay…good now these billionaires and millionaires can sit down and hash this thing out since the owners got the rug yanked out from them…awesome!
stage 3: the owners offered a very very doable deal and the players said no and decertified??? Okay, so they were planning this this way for a long time…what jerks!
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
by sadaraine on Mar 14, 2011 3:07 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
You kinda hit my feelings right on the nose.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:27 PM MDT up reply actions
the problem is that the owners deal was not doable. The way that the owners describe it, it was very doable, but the deal had some poison pills in it, and wouldn’t you know it that all the information about the deal being doable is coming from the owners’ side.
Specifically, the owners estimate that the revenue will grow something like 1.5% or 2.5% a year. They offered to split the money up to that point, but beyond that point, the owners would get all of it.
That’s a very low estimate of revenue growth, and everyone knows it, including the players. But it is what enabled the owners to say they were “meeting the players halfway” when in reality it was nothing like that.
exactly!
I feel like a yo-yo the way we’re getting jerked around. This kinda crap may not destroy the league, but it certainly sews the seeds of cynicism in the fan base. I miss the days when I had unqualified passion for everything Broncos. Now, I feel like I’m rooting every year with a fresh set of blinders on.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 9:49 PM MDT up reply actions
I agree. I’m pretty disgusted at MHR’s response to this interview.
It was passive aggressive and clumsy. Kind of like Xanders comments on McD’s role as GM the past few years. People either stand for something or fall for everything. After the poor job Mr. Ellis has done with the Broncos over the past few seasons, I’m shocked that a poorly delivered message to the fans improves his standing “ten fold”.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 7:57 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I view the interview
from the angle of this forums influence. The interview itself is nothing more than the owners viewpoint as put forth by others on the negotiating committee. As for Ellis’s job of running the Broncos, all I know is they are still in business and I don’t claim to know a good job from a bad one for his position. As for the moves the organization has been making, well… I am formulating a “black ops” type post about planning for a lock-out and what moves would make for a good loss of income. Yes, look at the Broncos moves over the past two seasons.
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Shanny did such a poor job managing Denver’s salary cap, his bizarre UFA signs and busted 1st round draft picks, anything looks better by comparison.
That said, Xanders ability to control the our cost structure is the one area where you have not seen me criticize him. In fact, for this area of GM work, he deserves praise.
Our team win/loss and lack of talent are huge problems, but at least our cap/salary structure will not hamper our development moving forward. We are a lean and mean terrible team. That’s much better than being a bloated and expensive terrible team like they have in Washington.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I’m shocked that a poorly delivered message to the fans improves his standing "ten fold".
The fact that our ownership feels compelled to deliver a message directly to their fans is what makes me feel appreciation for Bowlen. They could have easily released a statement to the media, but they made sure to contact the fanbase directly. How can you not respect that? Sure the message was bias towards the owners position, but how many other teams can say their ownership cares how they think. This was not propaganda, too small of an audience here, they would have went to the national stage for propaganda. This was an owner who saw angry fans and wanted to say what he could, directly to them, to help ease the fears. I’m sure there is a lot they cannot say due to NDAs and other legal reasons, but I certainly appreciate the gesture.
by droom on Mar 14, 2011 11:45 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
He hates Ellis
and with McGeorge once he hates someone he will make sure we all know about it.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 12:56 PM MDT up reply actions
Let me make it clear
I am not on either side for this dispute. To me, Ellis is just doing what Bowlen asked him to do, McG is completely right about how he allowed McD way too much power and is at fault for our current status.
Its not the message itself, but the fact that Bowlen cares enough about us fans to address the issue with us directly.
I agree
McD was given too much control. It seems to be the predominant trend in the NFL in general. This wasn’t anything new for us, Shanny was given way to much power and that also started us in this direction. I think that Ellis would be gone if Bowlen felt that he was solely responsible. Maybe I give Bowlen to much credit. At any rate my point was that McG hates Ellis, so any unbiased comment on this post by him cannot happen.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm guessing
McG is the type that needs to see something tangible to adjust his viewpoints. I understand and respect that. I don’t think Ellis will ever prove him wrong, but I’m hoping Xanders will.
Elway and Fox Hires
Firing Josh McD in a timely manner, making Xanders a true GM.
To me these are signs that we are moving in the right direction. Ellis had at least something to do with this. I like the direction the franchise is heading in. To me that is something tangible. I know Ellis made a very big mistake but cant we move on? Pat likes him, he isn’t going anywhere.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 2:16 PM MDT up reply actions
I thought the timing of and the execution of the firing of McD and promotion of Studes was very clumsy and bizarre. No points for that.
I also hate that Xanders was retained as the GM when he was the GM during the McD era and now throws Josh under the bus every chance he gets. It wreaks of Monday morning GM-ing and an inability to stand his ground or shoot straight. And Brain’s inability to string together sentences makes me thing his IQ is several dozen points below his contemporaries.
I love the Fox hire.
Elway has been gearing up for a role in organization since the Shanny era so that was a no brainer.
As for Joe Ellis, Pat loves George W Bush and wearing fur coats. Just because Pat gives someone his stamp of approval isn’t good enough for me. Not even close.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I get you point...
…I don’t agree with you but I do see where your coming from. I guess I am more inclined to look at the positives.
These men are well respected around the league. I blame Bowlen for some of the dysfunction of the past. I think he wanted an offensive guru to replace Shanny. I am just saying, its not going to change, lets see what happens. Maybe a little hoping for the best.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:13 PM MDT up reply actions
I was told to drink the Kool-Aid and look at the positives back in 2009 and all that got Denver was the worst team in franchise history in 2010.
I’m all for looking at the realities (be they positive or negative).
Bowlen is well respected around the NFL, but I highly doubt Xanders and Ellis enjoy the same sort of rep. How could they, they haven’t earned it. And no, I don’t just trust that they will.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
Unfortunately there isn’t much else we can do other than complain. Some days that’s all I feel like doing as well.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:19 PM MDT up reply actions
hey in fairness
that was pretty sweet kool-aid when we were 6-0. ; ) Then we drowned.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 9:46 PM MDT up reply actions
More like
Jim Jones’d it
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"Leadership is like porn, you know it when you see it. In this case, Tebow is a pornstar."
-BroncoPH
lol
Nah, Jonestown was much more in the Al Davis vein, as I recall. : )
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 10:28 PM MDT up reply actions
Here are my viewpoints on Xanders
What he can say on McD is limited by NDA’s, which most definitely were signed with the settlement. So if McD really did have a “final override everyone say”, how else could he express that without breaking the NDAs?
When Champ said(paraphrase) “I knew when McD left things were going to change(regarding negotiations)” that was very telling. It shows McD’s rule was so absolute, even in contract negotiations, that it was well known amongst the players. Everything indicates McD ruled Dove Valley like a tyrant, everything. FO/players/other teams, even the actions themselves screamed Napoleon complex.
As for Xanders communication ability. I also struggle to articulate myself, whether written or oral. However, I have what would be considered a high IQ. Language does not come naturally to us all, it is not a good indicator of overall intelligence.
Xanders and McD publicly stated far too many times that they made all decisions together for me to believe McD just smacked him around behind closed doors.
As for communication skills, it’s not like Xanders has a studer (sp). It’s not a speech impediment with Brian, he just sounds like a complete idiot when you break down what he is saying. It’s very disconcerting. When I read his transcripts, he absolutely comes off as someone of low intelligence.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
If what you say is true about Ellis and Xanders, then we need a new owner.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:29 PM MDT up reply actions
I can understand the caution
however, I believe that McD and Xanders saying they worked together was the lie. They basically told us they weren’t going to do what they did with Shanny again, then turned around and did it anyways. So it felt like they were “selling” us on having a HC and GM working together.
And I didn’t mean stutters or the sort. I mean articulation, expressing thoughts as words. Some people it comes naturally too, some people not so much so. This is the only issue you have with Xanders that I think is unsubstantiated. The rest, I am assuming as much as you, so its a matter of opinion and belief.
From listening to Xanders
I get the impression that he is intelligent and indeed has a bit of a social anxiety thing going? If the boys in Dove Valley are paying attention to this. Man some of this is harsh
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:34 PM MDT up reply actions
Exactly
Its not like he got to where he is without being a very intelligent person. His history most definitely indicates he is intelligent. And the social anxiety makes sense, it fits the personality type. I suffer from a modest form of it, luckily its not bad as I was a military brat so I had to develop social skills even though my personality type naturally lacks them.
Language skills != intelligence
This amounts to an ad hominem in my opinion. I saw it used over at IAOFM, and it irked me just as much there too.
Xanders does come off as someone with poor articulation skills, but the substance of his words is the real problem.
He has two speaking problems:
The first, he sounds dumb (not a good measure of intelligence, but easy to make fun of). Fair point you make so I’ll concede.
The second, what he is saying is dumb (a very good measure of a lack of intelligence). When you read the transcripts, he is saying some goofy crap. Xanders strikes me as someone that has been promoted well beyond his level of competence. The man seems like he has a handle on cap issues, but he brings me zero confidence in his ability to draft, trade and acquire talent. I very much wish we’d hired a stronger GM and that includes someone with a more capable voice.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I'll take your word on the second point
With language being a weakness, analyzing it is also a weakness. So I’ll defer to a higher authority as I know you do not have the same problem.
We will see what he is capable of this offseason(maybe…hopefully). I hope he grows into the role and becomes a great GM, if only because that means we finally have a great GM again.
Yep
We dont have a lot of choice and we dont really know for sure what happened between him and McD. Bowlen has faith in him and that is the only measure that I have to go on. Hopefully the draft is a 9 or a 10 and he is vindicated. If not, then what I said above is true and we need a new owner. God help us if that is the case. I personally still have some faith that the old man isnt going to surround himself with idiots.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 5:43 PM MDT up reply actions
I heard this song on the radio the other day. It was a rap song about “black and yellow”. The DJ said it was about the Pittsburgh Steelers so that peaked my interest. The production quality is good and this song has very catchy beat that was a rip on the 80s song Maniac.
So the song sounds good, but once you start listening to the lyrics, the rapper has a horrible delivery (like Xanders), but what was really the problem with the song is the content of his lyrics, which are absurd. This rapper couldn’t rhyme to save his life, nothing made sense, and the song is just a collection unrelated sentences with no substance or meaning (again, like Xanders).
That is what reading a Xanders transcript is like. Yes – he sounds terrible in his delivery, but more importantly, his content is weak, confusing and lacks logic. That’s why I think he is dumb and I’m afraid I’ll be proven right via the draft unless Fox, Elway or some of our scouts step in and do his job for him.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
My thoughts exactly
Whether or not you like McD doesn’t matter, Xanders doesn’t look good for throwing him under the train because Xanders had more then his fair share in how we got 4-12.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
Even Champ threw McDaniels under the bus
for being the cause of his contract problems. How many people need to throw him under the bus before it stops being “under the bus” and starts becoming the truth? All signs point to McD being a tyrant.
Nobody is blameless in that building, that was never in question. They had a reason to give him the chance, it is definitely a chance, and we have some really good people in our scouting department.
I thought our biggest need going into the 09 season was a strong GM, I thought our biggest need going into the 10 season was a strong GM. I thought it was a huge need(2nd to HC) during rebuilding. But they gave Xanders a chance. And while I understand caution, I don’t understand the attacks. It seems the only time people forget about all the tales of McDictator, is when Xanders is being discussed. Lets give him a draft and an offseason(hopefully) and see what he does with it. If he sucks it up, have at it. But lets give the guy a legitimate shot.
I think it becomes the truth
When more then a disgruntled GM and one defensive player say it. It’s funny, great locker room players like Tebow, Orton, Haggan, and Dawk all seemed to like McD, and I’m not saying he should still be here, but there is so little evidence that McD was at fault for some many things that went wrong, especially in terms of player management and how the team was organize. Do I think McD would still be HC if Xanders actually took accountability and Ellis organized the team better, yes I do. With a young, inexperienced HC, you never give them that much control.
I have yet to read anything saying McD was unfair, biased, cruel, a dictator, poor locker room coach, or that he tore the team apart. As far as I can tell, he was fired for losing, not for losing the team, but I’d gladly change my mind if you provided proof.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
by Topher Doll on Mar 15, 2011 12:10 AM MDT up reply actions
Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. We both know players don’t speak up. Players work through bad bosses all the time, of course not everyone is going to complain. Elway and Ellis have echo’d McDaniels having too much power, its not Xanders, its the FO. Our best player, a captain, spoke out about it. I respect Bailey as a professional, I do not believe he would slander McDaniels without it being the simple truth.
Remember Nolan? Cutler? Sheffler? Marshall? Ya, we came out ahead on the players, but its not like in his short history McDaniels was all peaches and cream with the players.
McDaniels settled, NDAs were signed. We will never have “proof”. Which what would it be, a checklist of all the bad things done with McDaniels signature? Its like politics, you have to read between the lines because nobody can be completely honest. I thought all of this was obvious when Nolan left the way he did. But to each their own. With all of this, it can only be speculation. What can I say, I’m an optimist.
this is not evidence of Bowlen/Ellis caring about the fans. They might care about the fans, but this is not evidence of it.
This is evidence about Bowlen/Ellis caring about the fans’ perception of the owners side, and that the fans should blame the players/union. That’s all this is.
Why go to such a small forum for propaganda?
It doesn’t make sense. They approached MHR, and they know what kind of site this is. Small, relative to other sports sites, but with die-hard fans. While MHR is great and one of my favorite sites on the web, we represent a very small part of our fanbase. No doubt it was bias, its the gesture that counts IMO.
What other owners attempt to be so direct with their fanbase? If he cares about what we think, he cares in some form or another which can definitely not be said about many owners out there.
You underplay this site.
CNNSI regularly has links to MHR on it’s front page and Bill Williamson has done a copy and paste verbatim of the horse tracks.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I didn’t underplay it at all. I said its small relative to other sports sites. It does not come close to comparing to any major network sports sites. Even local paper sites, like DP, would be a better avenue to reach a large audience.
The major significance of MHR is how hardcore the fans here are. It appears Dove Valley recognizes that. Addressing us hardcore fans directly is a sign of respect IMO. He did not have to do it. Later that day he sent a letter addressing the whole fanbase. If the MHR post was really propaganda, why not link it on denverbroncos.com? Why keep it isolated here? Its because the message was for hardcore fans in particular. Is it that farfetched that Bowlen would care about fans? To me he has always been the type of owner that cares, that has passion for the team, who feels we are all part of one big Bronco family. Maybe being in AZ with the Bidwills gave me perspective, because I know exactly how an owner that doesn’t care acts like. Bowlen never displays those same characteristics.
People want hope
And I have no problem with that, but to me, Ellis isn’t the place to look for that hope.
I am a bear of very little brains and big words bother me.
NOT!
Epic fail!
"'The powers that we gave the federal government are few and well-defined, and restricted mostly to external affairs. Those left with the people and the states are indefinite and numerous." - James Madison, Federalist Paper #45
We must reject the idea that every time a law's broken, society is guilty rather than the lawbreaker. It is time to restore the American precept that each individual is accountable for his actions.
Ronald Reagan
John
What an amazing thing you have built here. It is great that the team sees this webblog as an avenue to communicate with the teams fans. Congratulations to you and all the staff for the great work you do here.
Let’s get a deal done!
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
I'm on
four other NFL blogs here and none of them have posted interviews with a Team source, let alone the Team President. I am sooo Proud ;)
I am a smarter fan for being a member of MHR! (<—-new slogan)
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on Mar 14, 2011 6:17 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
Good call.
FIRE JOE ELLIS!
ANYONE ELSE INTERESTED IN SEEING WHAT WE HAVE IN TEBOW? Watching Kyle orton is like watching re-runs of the Brady Bunch...you always know whats going to happen and makes you feel sick at the end!
"I actually watched the World Cup. I HATE baseball. Hockey’s over. Hey, at least we have the WNBA. Oh, man. I’m making a noose. Want one?"
Harv Neptune.
not sure I'm smarter
but I feel like I at least have a clue now! : ) So I’ll second Sean’s congratulations!
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions
Rubbish.
What a load of crap from Mr. Joe Ellis.
Remember everyone, the owners opted out of the CBA, not the players. We’d still have football in 2011 and beyond, but the owners were not happy with a CBA THEY “the owners” agreed to and signed in 2006. That isn’t that long ago folks.
Many of these owners are billionaires (Bowlen used to be until 2010). Obviously by opting out of the CBA, they didn’t feel the deal THEY agreed to in 2006 was as profitable as they hoped. It would be very easy for the owners to open their books to independent auditors. If they are doing as poorly as they seem to suggest, the proof would be in the pudding and the players would have zero leverage in negotiations because fans, owners and players understand that both sides (owners and players) need a deal that is mutually beneficial and good for the game. No one knows how the owners are doing right now because the owners won’t allow access to their financials. What we do know is that many of the owners are billionaires that have tax payers fund their stadiums in addition to paying $9 for a hot dog, $8.50 for a beer or $40 for parking. Showing everyone your books would help explain why everything costs what it does. But it’s your prerogative not to disclose that info and it’s mine as a fan to tell you the owners, to go "pound sand".
I’d also like to speak directly to Mr. Joe Ellis. You sir made one of the very worst decisions in Bronco history in hiring Josh McDaniels and giving him the authority to be head coach and GM when McDaniels was without a single game of head coaching experience at any level and no experience in player personnel decision making. The lack of common sense displayed in your decision is, quite frankly, preposterous. It’s certainly amateurish and speaks very poorly to your decision making abilities, discernment and competence. You sir are the primary (THE NUMBER 1) reason why the Broncos are one of the worst teams in the NFL right now. That’s not a compliment Mr. Ellis. That’s a fact. If you or anyone thinks I’d have a problem saying that directly to your face, think otherwise. I’d cherish the opportunity to express my disappointment in you eye to eye, face to face.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 7:51 AM MDT reply actions 4 recs
Bena: Please don’t take my post down. I followed the MHR rules. There is no swearing, no name calling, no rebel rousing.
If Joe Ellis is going to use MHR as a soap box, the fans should be able to applaud or offer a retort.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 8:00 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
absolutely
Also, take a breath man! relax a bit ;)
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
Joe Ellis is practicing selective transparency. It's wreaks of hypocrisy and treating the fans like children.
Denver has a new buzz word. Transparency. It’s all the rage at Dove Valley.
Well the players are asking for transparency from the owners in this CBA mess. It’s a pretty simple request since it doesn’t cost the owners any money. It’s a question of trust, that’s it. Seems like an easy concession to me since the owners are asking for more money the players are willing to concede. Personally, I’d rather build trust and provide transparency than give away money. Take this to the bank, financially, the players will lose this round of CBA. The owners will make more and the players less based on the next CBA. I guess I think the players are making a much bigger concession.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 8:44 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Only in America do average joes
identify themselves with the plight of the poor billionaire (or hundred millionaire). I guess it’s because we believe someday “that could be me” if the Powerball would just cooperate.
I wonder how many Roman citizens worried about the plight of the poor gladiator owners and how would they ever make a profit from the business risks they took. Those damn gladiators always wanted too much.
by John in Castle Rock on Mar 14, 2011 1:29 PM MDT up reply actions
LMAO, good point!
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 1:31 PM MDT up reply actions
disagree.
the oft repeated argument about people feeling sorry for the billionaires misses the mark by a mile. i’ve neither heard nor read of anyone with that take and if there’s someone on with that idea they’re probably a trillionaire. from what i gather, gladiators don’t have don’t have nearly the career or education options that average NFL players do—if i understand the life of the gladiator anyway.
personally, i’m not heartbroken if billionaires lose a few million here and there—they’ll make it back in good time and find other ways to get our money. what i don’t get is why it’s everyone else’s right to tell someone how to own something. so what if some of the owners didn’t “earn” their team—why is that my concern or place to judge? but what is my concern is that as a small business owner i’ve found that when the ‘hard working’ people start being able to tell evil corporations what to do with their possessions, they seem to end up being able to tell me what to do with my affairs as well. don’t get me wrong, it’s a blast to make demands on other people’s money but it’s less great when those same demands hit home and people start yanking at your own pant leg. if the owners are getting away with anything illegal—and they might be—then by all means prosecute to the full extent. otherwise, if you’re a player who puts his life and health on the line every day just to entertain the people (oh, the humanity!) but you just can’t deal with the unfairness of it all, then play arena ball, canadian football or make a new league and feed off the plush green grass over there.
i’m not rooting for the caesars or the gladiators in this one—i don’t identify much with either. is there a lion in the ring? maybe i’m for them.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
And to me, it really kind of seems like the owners were putting in more effort to get this thing done.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:36 PM MDT up reply actions
makes sense
when you consider they were the ones who agreed to the shakey deal that they just opted out of.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 9:43 PM MDT up reply actions
see
that’s the catch to me. i’m like everyone else in that i feel like everyone there seems to be making plenty of money so i’m not worried about the exact dollars and cents. i tend to default to the owners since i value private property and ownership principles. however, if there’s a contractual agreement that you made you dang well better stick it out. so there’s that. on the other hand if the deal you agreed to looks to be collapsing the entire business, you should be able to get out of it IF you can prove your point clearly. but then…
ah crap. i’m no good at this CBA garbage. i guess i’ll watch the nuggets.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
March madness came
at just the right time.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 10:29 PM MDT up reply actions
yep. it's all good
… for now. i’m going to arizona this week to take in some rockies spring trainingk so that’ll be good times. i’ll be peeved though when fall rolls around and i have to relearn how to be a college football fan.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
I'll be rooting for the Stampeders
Mountain time CFL in summer, baby! That’s living!
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 10:53 PM MDT up reply actions
nice.
i picture it like minor league baseball where they have $.25 beer nights, disco nights and hang out with the players nights.
no?… dang.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
Wait, you're saying it's not?
I may need to rethink this.
But on the plus side, after watching some game highlights, it’s clear no one in that entire league knows how to tackle, so there are offensive fireworks GALORE! : )
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 11:03 PM MDT up reply actions
we’re kind of used to watching no tackle football. that helps with acclimation.
I'm not sugarcoating this.
lol
Although the 5000 yds passing and 1200 yd rusher might send me into cardiac arrest.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 11:32 PM MDT up reply actions
How about the Griz!
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 15, 2011 10:56 AM MDT up reply actions
LOL you bet
And the Saints! My brother plays DE for Carroll. : )
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 15, 2011 11:49 AM MDT up reply actions
I can try to live without my Sunday football as long as I have my Saturday football. Good on your bro! So he is a national champion!
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 15, 2011 2:23 PM MDT up reply actions
yes he is!
So proud. : ))))
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 15, 2011 9:36 PM MDT up reply actions
Come on, man!
That post was great, well-reasoned, and a model of respectful disagreement. And then you had to top it off with this passive-aggressive garbage.
by Velveeta on Mar 14, 2011 8:47 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
I know
Its hard to take his posts seriously when there is so much hate. It feels like he has an agenda.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 8:50 AM MDT up reply actions
How is my post passive aggressive? I was as candid and to the point as I know how to be. Perhaps my writing skills failed me, but being passive aggressive was not my intent.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
pretty sure
he means the secondary post not to remove the first. While I supported it, I believe your post was stronger without it.
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
My secondary post was directly to Bena. I wrote something about Ellis yesterday that wasn’t MHR worthy and it was removed. Fair enough and my bad.
I didn’t want this post receiving the same treatment since there are likely to be some eyes from Dove Valley reading MHR today. Perhaps even Joe Ellis himself.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I didn’t want this post receiving the same treatment since there are likely to be some eyes from Dove Valley reading MHR today. Perhaps even Joe Ellis himself.
The reason for my support. No worries here.
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
The secondary post implicitly accuses John of removing posts simply because he doesn’t agree with them.
Sorry. That was not my intent. I was responding to a post of mine (about Joe Ellis) that was deleted yesterday (rightfully so).
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
Damn you are arrogant.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 8:10 AM MDT up reply actions
You are entitled to your opinion.
My response is that when it comes to the current state of the Broncos, the job performance of Joe Ellis, and the lockout, my overriding sentiment is anger. Nothing else comes close.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I may not agree entirely but I think you state the other side of the coin very well.
Dear Santa- All I want for Christmas is a Stud NT and David Harris- Thank you!
Davis and Sharpe to the Hall!
"Teamwork divides the task and double the success."
- Unknown
by Jon Tollerud on Mar 14, 2011 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Well stated McGeorge
And he won’t take it down because I can’t see how anyone would flag it.
"Bombs dropping down overhead. Underground. It's instilled to want to live." -EV
Is it just me or,
Does it look like Ellis has a gun in Bowlen’s back and Bowlen has his hands up like he is being led into a bank vault. Just sayin"
Don't believe everything you read
by RockyMountainThunder on Mar 14, 2011 8:11 AM MDT reply actions
I know its off topic
but doesn’t Joe Ellis look like an older Owen Wilson in that picture up top?
Good interview, I’m glad Ellis is so passionate about all this
If you reply to a comment/post/fanshot of mine, I will more likely then not respond to it, unless you come off like a d-bag.
Overall
I think that this is an example of the owners P.R. plan. I appreciate the fact that the Broncos recognize the fans on this forum, however the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I think we need to take this with a grain of salt.
For the record, I have been flip flopping back and fourth a little on who is right. I think that each side has valid reasons for what they want. After reading about the compromises that ownership has offered I think I am permanently in the owners camp. I do not believe that the union is bargaining in good faith. The NFL gave a ton and it doesn’t appear that the Union budged at all. Personally, I think that Smith should be fired by the union. If the players are happy with this then I don’t really want them back.
I think for me, Brady, Manning and Brees being at the forefront of the litigation is ridiculous. What a joke and an example of the unions P.R. plan.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 8:48 AM MDT reply actions 3 recs
nicely said, big sky bro
Although I having stars with their names in the plaintiff slots are more of a PR move the union is making toward its membership. If they don’t have the support of their star players, they lose. I’m sure they remember what happened back in ’87 when guys like Joe Montana and Roger Craig crossed the picket lines.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 9:02 AM MDT up reply actions
Very good point...
I didn’t look at it as the unions way of rallying the troops. It makes sense for sure. I guess I am looking at the union through hate vision right now, it can be kinda blinding. I cannot believe that the NFL gave so much and Smith and the union wouldn’t even go with another extension.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 9:50 AM MDT up reply actions
for the record
What the owners offered at the last minute was a deal where the players and owners would “split” the revenue up to a certain number that was a very low estimate of how much the NFL would make in future years. That’s what the owners mean by split-the-difference. What they don’t say is that if the NFL makes any more revenue above that certain number, the NFL would get all of it. The NFL’s offer wasn’t a whole lot better than any of the offers they’ve given in the past if you assume reasonable projections in revenue growth.
My own opinion is that the owners structured the offer that way so they’d have good PR after the deadline, not because they were negotiating in good faith. Add in the fact that the owners were regularly slow-walking their responses and leaving the players hanging and impatient, I’m not surprised the players finally lost their patience.
What I am surprised about is that the players have been weirdly silent since Friday and not taking any PR bait. We’ve heard tons of complaints from the owners in a very coordinated way – for instance, if you compare the teams’ letters to season tickets holders, some of them contain the exact same wording when discussing the players and the litigation. The players have barely responded in any unified way. That’s why they’ve been losing the PR battle since Friday.
Do you have a link
that you could suggest that delves into more information? I am just going off of what I read on ESPN. Which incidentally seems a little biased towards owners. After reading it I was very upset that the union had left the barganing table.
I would love to be able to make a more informed judgment.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 12:49 PM MDT up reply actions
profootballtalk.com
Florio’s site has stated much of this information and appears to be more biased towards the players side. good for a comparative analysis with ESPN.
The main point that we shouldn’t miss is this: They are called owners for a reason. They made the investment in the organization, implement policy, then reap the rewards or the penalties. No one has to like this, but no one should feel entitled to another person’s property.
As a private organization, they are not obligated to share their information with anyone. It’s their right. By the way, i’m not an owner of anything, i just play one on TV. :-) kidding.
The union want to barge their way in and become owners as well. Something about that just doesn’t sit right with me. De Smith and some others are on a power-trip. They wants to show everyone who’s the real boss.
by Alonio on Mar 14, 2011 9:01 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
You’re forgetting about two things — incorporation laws (which don’t exist in nature) — and the anti-trust exemption. Those mean there’s little to no risk in owning an NFL team, and that this whole process is public.
Penalties that owners reap? Um, er….. even the dregs of the league, like the late 90s Bucs, are sold at a hefty profit. Revenue sharing, public stadiums, concessions contracts and merchandising contracts mitigate against real negative cash-flow problems. Losing teams see their valuations go up, routinely. And owners have bankruptcy protections WHICH YOU AND I DO NOT ENJOY AS INDIVIDUALS that mean a tanking team won’t touch the rest of their fortunes. I know the textbooks you read in econ 101 say the owners bear a lot of risk, but that’s not actually the way our economy works. The risk falls on players with non-guaranteed contracts, lifelong health problems, CTE, etc. People with capital get special protections and a different rule book. And then some of us complain they’re not treated deferentially enough!
Also, have you heard the one about the anti-trust exemption? About how the owners’ profits are contingent upon a special get-out-of-jail-free card that means they’re exempted from basic economic regulations (of the kind that even Chicago economists endorse)? If they’re going to plead poverty to a group that’s allowed them to keep their special legal exemption, they need to show poverty.
And can you please clear up how the union wants to become owners? This issue is being tried (dually) in the cour of public opinion and legally. The owners’ pleas of poverty are germane in each case.
by Chibronx on Mar 14, 2011 10:55 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
The owners are not pleading poverty.
They are making the case that in order for their product to remain sustainable their current business model will need to change. They are using common business techniques for forecasting and trend analysis to ensure that the “future” of the sport is secure. I haven’t heard or read any reports that say the owners are pleading poverty as part of ther case.
"as in football so in life"
Words
“poverty” “sustainable business model”
Really? Can’t see the sarcasm? For a billionaire, poverty is not making ten million a day! <—— exateration for effect ;)
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on Mar 14, 2011 11:34 AM MDT up reply actions
Try thinking about it this way
The term sustainable implies that if they can make the changes necessary to continue growing their business they will be able to sustain their rate of growth that has been achieved over the last 20 years. So, even if the players get a slightly smaller piece of the pie it will be a much larger pie. I guarantee you if you asked the players if they would rather have 50% of total revenues from 1990 or 47.5% of total revenues from 2010 there would be no hesitation to take the 47.5%.
This really is simply a trust issue. the NFLPA does not trust that the owners are really telling them the truth about what it will take to continue growing the NFL business model. The owners for many reasons cannot fully open their books to make their case. I can see how both sides are stuck but at least the owners stayed at the table and continued to make concessions. The union made none.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Mar 14, 2011 12:21 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
I understand the arguement
I don’t understand why you chose to key on the word poverty. It is only there as an overstatement of the owners plea for a “sustainable business model”.
I have high hopes for Tebow and respect for Orton, may the best man lead us to wins!
Opinions are like......, Well anyway, this is mine.
by Sean in Pa. on Mar 14, 2011 12:41 PM MDT up reply actions
Well Sean..
Since it was used three times in the post it seemed relevant.
"as in football so in life"
The lockout was instigated by the owners.
The owners opted out of the current CBA two years early. Now the owners have locked out the players as was their intent when they opted out of the current CBA. This isn’t a strike by the players; it’s a lockout by the owners. It’s like some of you guys completely fail to see this fact. This whole mess was instigated by owners, not players. A few years ago, these same owners negotiated the very CBA they can’t live with now. Again, how is this the fault of the players?
The players would gladly continue under the current CBA that the owners negotiated and agreed to just five years ago. We’d have football thru at least 2012, but the owners didn’t want this. The owners created this lockout to fix a CBA they realized they didn’t like only after the fact.
Now the owners are asking the players to take a significant haircut in terms of pay. The players would like to know why. They’d like this to be demonstrated. I can’t blame them.
If the reason we play $12 for nachos at the game is because the players are taking home too much of the league’s revenue and the owners are losing money, no problem… That should and could be fixed with a CBA.
But something tells me that if (really just a matter of when) the players take a pay cut in the next CBA, those savings won’t be passed on to the fans in terms of affordable concessions, tickets, parking, apparel, etc. I think the owners are very happy to serve a $15 cheeseburger and charge a five figure seat licensing fee. The owners just want more of a good thing and they want the players and fans to "trust them". Well I don’t.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 11:39 AM MDT up reply actions 2 recs
It's not the players fault at all.
But that doesn’t change anything. Just like it wasn’t the GM employees fault or the Fannie and Freddie employees fault. By the way, the players are not being asked to take a significant haircut, look at the actual numbers, don’t speculate. The only players who are getting hit more than a few percent are the 1st rd rooks, which I think we all agree (or should) is a change that has been needed for some time. The owners are tryng to address the long overdue retirement benefits gap with 82m of their money as well as a portion from the savings from the 1st rd picks. As for opening the books ? A league wide independently audited profit statement should be more than adequate, the union is simply using this as their reason du juor for decertification. IMO The lawyers on both sides of this are very smart and have predictably played their cards to their (the lawyers on both sides) advantage. It’s certainly not to the Fans, Players or Owners advantage IMO.
"as in football so in life"
As the NFL is uber profitable right now, why are the players being asked to take any haircut.
That is the question they are asking and what the owners to prove out. Are they taking a haircut commiserate with the one the owners are taking or are the players giving back money so the owners can have a bigger piece of the pie?
Are they on the same side in incurring loss or is this a zero sum game. From the way the owners are acting, I’d say it’s the latter.
BTW: I’m not on the players side in this. I think 1st round picks are vastly overpaid and the players agree because they (the players) offered huge concessions on 1st round pick salaries. That wasn’t the owners. I’m simply stating that Bowlen and the owners are far from the good guy victims in this. Like the players, the owners are the bad guys (or better said, the greedy bastards).
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
They're all greedy bastards In my book as well.
And neither of them can play the innocent victim card when they’re splitting billions! My point is simply that the overhead costs for almost everything in this country have gone up substantially over the last 5 years including insurance and taxes. Add to that the owners are trying to invest in a better retirement plan for ex players and all of it has to come from somewhere. Personally I have 0 sympathy for either side and just want them to fix it without f’ing up the offseason. We’ve got a ton of new stuff going on at dove valley and the more time it takes to fix this mess the less time the Broncos will have to acclimate to new coaches and learn new systems. It will effect us more than many teams who are set with their systems.
"as in football so in life"
The best thing that could happen to Denver is a season long lockout and us getting the 2nd overall pick in two consecutive drafts when 2012 will have two franchise QBs (Luck and Barkely). In the 2011 draft, I think we are going to get to trade down from #2 thanks to Newton and Gabbart. It’d happen again in 2012 and we’d be vastly better for it (unless my boy Xanders screws up the draft).
I’d miss football like crazy in 2011, but Denver could reinvent themselves with such luck. We’d have a boatload of high draft picks to throw at the least talented and oldest darn D in the NFL.
As for the CBA, I believe the players are going to eventually bend over and take it from the owners. The owners want a bigger piece of the pie and they’ll eventually get it. Probably around late August.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
If its a lost season like last year we would likely have another high draft pick anyway. Otherwise I will take the experience of the season under Tebow’s belt over a lockout.
I am not positive but isn’t the second draft in this scenario a pulling teams out of a hat scenario?
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:17 PM MDT up reply actions
That is what I thought, but Sayre said it was the same order as 2011 so that kind of made me blow a load in my pants. Could Denver be so lucky?
And if Orton is going to be our the QB in 2011, I hope we don’t have football. I don’t enjoy these 5-11ish seasons.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
It would be interesting. We would come out for 2012 a vastly different club.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:24 PM MDT up reply actions
That’s the hope. Of course that assumes you draft well and that is far from a given, but look at Tampa.
One good draft with high picks and they look like a real up and coming team.
Denver could have two drafts of high picks without the pain of two crap seasons.
No matter what, I hope the 2012 team is vastly different from the garbage squads of 2008 or 2010.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I guess I’m “pro-player” if you imagine the player that…
1) Plays 1-2 years for a few hundred thousand dollars
2) Gets a couple concussions on top of all the high school and college damage
3) Washes out of the league with nothing to fall back on other than a lousy college degree from a university that only cared about their football skills
4) Five years later, can’t get health insurance due to pre-existing conditions and runs out of money
5) Dies at age 55 after bankruptcy, near poverty, and a lifetime of medical issues.
by tunesmith on Mar 14, 2011 4:46 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah but I though the owners were the only ones
who were taking a risk?
by John in Castle Rock on Mar 15, 2011 6:53 AM MDT up reply actions
well stated McGeorge
Character may be manifested in the great moments but it is made in the small ones -- Philip Brooks
My ship finally came in, but it was the Kobayashi Maru.
Follow me on Twitter @MHR_KaptainKirk
Thanks buddy. I was fussy how one sided this was when I arrived this morning. Needed some equity IMO. Thanks to tTnesmith, Sean, Chibrox, and Asinsoin, this thing became a more “fair and balanced” approach to the story.
Not one man’s soapbox to rail on the players.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
I was very much hoping you’d show up today. We don’t always see eye to eye on Denver Broncos, but we probably do in cases like the current CBA except that you are vastly superior (and knowledgeable) when it comes to articulating your views on labor laws, unions and anti-trust.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
It’s good to see you, brother. This issue is some serious up-is-down nonsense in my book. Man, oh man is it good to be an owner:
a) you were most likely born a millionaire
b) you’ve got a socialism-for-the-rich business (socialize the costs, privatize the profits)
c) your franchise makes you money and appreciates annually even if you’re Bill Bidwell or Virginia McCaskey, and
d) when you lock out your players, not only do the fans sympathize with you, the actually think it’s a strike.
It just blows my mind. The owners have everything going there way. The public doesn’t seem to care about or even get the anti-trust exemption. It’s one of the all-time sweetheart deals, it’s the antithises of whatever a free market is supposed to be. And yet we keep hearing how the owners are these heroic capitalists who take their risks like manly men (manly men who where fur coats!) in the competitive jungle. And the owners have successfully painted this as being about Albert Haynesworth and JaMarcus Russell, not Spencer Larsen, Cassius Vaughn, Seth Olsen and all sorts of marginal players who have few career options and chronic health problems to show for their brief careers.
And can we talka bout DeMaurice Smith for a second, about the repeated references to “I don’t like the way he looks,” he wants to get involved in things that aren’t his business….. Goodness, such strong feelings. The word those folks want to use starts with “u.” Just come out and say it.
by Chibronx on Mar 14, 2011 12:12 PM MDT up reply actions 5 recs
The players don’t have career marketing men like Joe Ellis pleaing (not a word) their case.
Fortunately for you and I, we are not the types to take what a marketing man like Joe Ellis says hook, line and sinker. I just want to know how the hell Joe Ellis got to make any football decisions in the first place.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
Marketing overseeing the entire organization
is the very definition of misguided.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 19, 2011 10:05 AM MDT up reply actions
A couple thoughts...
I welcome everyone’s opinion, positive and negative. The Broncos reached out with an opportunity and I took it. Be foolish not to.
A couple points:
1. Regarding the ‘Books’ – I specifically asked about that. Ellis was emphatic that the union was offered plenty of information – more than ever – that included specific league-wide and club specific profitability data. The players say the info was useless. Ellis used the words misguided and disingenuous when talking of the union’s feelings towards what was offered.
That said, we don’t know what was offered. We weren’t in the room. Joe Ellis was and that is what he says the NFL offered the union. Is it the truth? Nobody knows, but until someone from the union speaks with me, to tell what they feel they were offered, I can only go by what was said to me. I welcome the opportunity to talk to the NFLPA, or Kyle Orton, the Broncos’ rep.
2. I have seen the sentiment out there that we are being used as a soapbox for the Owners. Maybe. But, again, I will talk to anyone – in the know – that wants to talk. I’m not taking sides. I asked the questions, he answered them. He was passionate and sounded as frustrated as the rest of us. What that means? Not a whole lot and he knows that.
3. While some of the motivation may have been to get the owners’ position out there, I think a big part of it was to assure fans that – from a business perspective – the business of the Denver Broncos is moving on as planned. I know I have several people I consider friends that work in the front office, and as a friend I am concerned for them.
I get the level of distrust that people feel towards Ellis. All I can do, however, is give you guys the message and let each of you individually decide for yourself. I hope you all do the same.
-TSG
SBNation's Denver Broncos Blogger
MileHighReport
Questions, Comments...E-Mail Me!
milehighreport@gmail.com
or
Call Me! (303)731-5605
Follow MHR on Twitter!
Follow MHR on Facebook!
XBox Gamertag - MileHighReport
Playstation Gamertag - TheSportsGuru
by John Bena on Mar 14, 2011 9:32 AM MDT reply actions 4 recs
You are doing your job and you must be very good at it since MHR got this kind of interview.
Joe Ellis is using MHR as a tool for his soap box moment. I get that, and you don’t need to feel any sort of uncomfortably for proving him a forum.
Thanks for providing us a forum to respond.
Your site kicks ###. That’s why it will win best site award in a few days. Congrats in advance.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
RE #3
That is exactly what I got from the tone and tenor of the conversation. I didn’t feel like Ellis was trying to gloss over any unpleasantries. I felt like he, and the rest of the Broncos brass, are extremely upset and nervous because this is all coming at a time when they are making extraordinary efforts to make nice with the Broncos fan base again. This situation could not have come at a worse time, from a Broncos business and PR perspective. Ellis has made his share of mistakes that contributed to the situation the franchise is in, but I’ve never once had the perception that he didn’t care or wasn’t trying to own up to them. Quite the contrary. Which is why, in my best estimation, he’s here talking to us. And I respect him for doing that. But the best way to atone for mistakes is to fix them, whatever the environment.
Mainly, there’s not a lot I can do personally so I’m somewhat detached. But I think it’s just bloody awesome that you connected with him in this way. Are we finally starting to see some of the true potential of the blogosphere at work here? Teams and fans connecting in a way that is pretty much unprecedented. Dark times to be sure, for every side involved, but I’d hate for all these distractions to undervalue or diminish what this interview represents. Great great job, Dr. Bena. Get Kyle on the phone! His agent is David Dunn, I believe.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 11:13 AM MDT up reply actions
I firmly believe Ellis was trying to use MHR as a soapbox, but if anything I’m glad you were there to capture such a good record of it. My opinions of Ellis are completely solidified now when before I only suspected he was not trustworthy. I thought your questions were neutral and professional. My complaints are all about Ellis’ responses.
As for the financial offer, up until the last day or two, I’m going to believe Domonique Foxworth, who I’ve always trusted. The owners were trumpeting through the press they were making unprecedented offers in league financial information, when Foxworth said that everything they were offering could already be pieced together by what was in Forbes. I understand the owners were offering more late in the sessions, but I also read that they did it extremely late, after a delay, when the players were already feeling too jerked around. The players wanted ten years of audited finances so they could compare the finances before and after the 2006 CBA, and didn’t get it.
Finally, litigation isn’t this shameful thing like Ellis makes it out to be. Litigation is a negotiation that is backed by law, and the outcomes are what our legal system says is fair. I don’t know what the outcome of the litigation will be, but I do believe that if it is in the players’ favor, then it’s a pretty darn good indication that what the owners have been pushing for is rather unfair. It is telling to me that the owners are complaining so strenuously about litigation. They don’t argue in favor of the fans’ perspective regarding subjects like ticket prices or inflated stadium food prices. They’re arguing because they are feeling extremely threatened, which I think is a very relevant clue.
by tunesmith on Mar 14, 2011 12:15 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
You are the undisputed winner of this tread. You’ ve made some many strong posts I’d turn seven of them green if I could.
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
Not Rubbish....in fact
Nicely done Mr. Bena. This article says a world about the influnce that a well crafted blog can have in todays interactive media. It also says a lot about Mr. Ellis’ business acumen…he gets it, he knows that the fans are the customer and the customer is always right. Kudo’s to him for taking time to answer your questions and not fueling the fire with the union. I do agree with McGeorge that as a “football ops manager” Ellis is incompetent but as a business man he seems to b quite savvy.
As for the issue at hand I can see both sides perspective and unfortunately it probably will take a court order or the players themselves geeting more involved with their union to effect a change. Here’s my take based on more than a few years of running businesses (non-union).
NFL owners: First let me say that IMO this is NOT about greed as much as it is about long-term sustainability. Most businesses use some form of financial forecasting / trend analysis to determine if they’re on the right track for sustainable growth. Given the warning signs they are seeing in some markets as well as the fact that as in all businesses fixed costs ie.. overhead and taxes etc.. are rising. I also believe that the owners know full well that they have to do something to help the retired players benefits whether out of apprecistion for their legacy or out of an understanding that the PR and image of the league will take a hit if they don’t. This is why IMO their latest offer included 82M of their money specifically for retired player benefits. From a business perspective it is both reasonable and logical that they address the issue proactively rather than reactively.
NFLPA: Forget for a moment the amounts that the players make and consider their perspective. They had an agreement in 2006 to be paid a certain amount and now the owners are coming back to them and saying we either can’t or won’t continue to pay you that amount because things either have or are changing. (For the record this is a reality that many employees face in todays workplace.) As an employee this is not good news so naturally you don’t like it. It doesn’t matter if you make 3M per year or $8.00 per hour it sucks! Now add the union into the mix. They tell you, the player, that the owners are trying to take advantage of you and make more money than is fair and you have the leverage to stop them from changing things. Of course you trust the union and of course you want more money..who doesn’t? The union tells you that things really aren’t that bad for the owners, just look at how much money they made last year and the union is right, things weren’t bad last year. They say let’s force the owners to completely open their books and proves that things are bad and as they say “there’s the rub”.
The owners can not, will not and should not ever completely open their books to the union and or players. Doing so would create exponentially more issues than it would resolve. The fact that they are offering league wide profitability data should be more than adequate to satisfy union demands. Giving the union access to P&L level data not only allows them to question every business decision but also opens each of these privately held firms to much greater liablities too numerous to mention here. The union either should know this but doesn’t, so therefore needs to reexamine their request or as I suspect full well understands this and is using it as their reason for forcing things into court.
A very wise man once told me that in business one should do everything possible to avoid going to court since typically the only one who wins are the lawyers and no matter how right or wrong you may be the outcome is almost always in the hands of someone who lacks a complete understanding of the problem.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Mar 14, 2011 9:48 AM MDT reply actions 3 recs
Very nicely put
I think the bottom line is that one side is willing to negotiate and the other refuses to compromise. Maybe this is were the national labor relations board needs to step in and make sure that there is good faith bargaining going on.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 9:57 AM MDT up reply actions
Look, if I’m in a partnership with someone, and my partner tells me that they need to increase their share of the revenue and decrease my share because their expenses are growing way too fast, then I’m going to want to see the evidence. It’s the owners that are telling the players this, and yet:
- the owner are the only ones that have access to the information that would prove it
- the owners have been reluctant to share the information
- the owners have motivation to lie (because recent owners might have paid too much for buying franchises due to relying on incredibly inflated revenue multiples)
- revenue has been increasing every year
There’s no real equivalence here. Everything has to start with the fact that the owners are simply telling the players that the numbers are bad, and asking them to trust them without letting them verify it. “Trust but verify” – they’re not letting the players verify.
And as for the players wanting to litigate, people forget that the players have been fine with the 2006 agreement as-is in terms of revenue numbers. They’re not asking for more. They already made an offer to the owners that meant less revenue for them than the 2006 numbers. The players are litigating in defense, not on offense. If the owners let go of their demands and said “let’s just continue with 2006 numbers”, the players would accept it faster than you can read this.
by tunesmith on Mar 14, 2011 12:24 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
dude
You’re on fire today! : ) Great perspectives. Thanks.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 12:27 PM MDT up reply actions
But what if you're not in a partnership (which the players aren't)
I think you’ve hit the nail on the head tunesmith. The players are employees not partners.
"as in football so in life"
no
they are partners. specifically, the union is partners with the owners. that’s the key perspective that people need to hold on to here.
The NFL does not have an anti-trust exemption like baseball does. The union enters into an agreement with the nfl that allows the nfl to act as a monopoly, because the union allows it in exchange for the terms of the deal.
right
That’s exactly why the decertification has such teeth. If the NFL had an anti-trust exemption for real, then decertification would mean nothing. But with decertification, then a court could claim that all sorts of monopoly-ish practices are illegal. Including the draft maybe? Anyway, possible outcomes are at the edge of my understanding, I am not sure that part is true. But that is why decertification is a big deal.
I get it, was simply using it to make the point.
The union may have “partnership” status by some definitions however by classic business definitions of partnershp they are actually closer to anti-partnership in nature. ie… the union made no initial or ongoing investment in the company and do not necessarily have the companies best interests in mind.
"as in football so in life"
by asinsoin on Mar 14, 2011 12:55 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Average fan
My guess is the average fan would exchange places with virtually any player and at half the price. “Get paid to play football!” now, how could it get any better? The upper tier players are making way too much money to play a game, albeit with known risks. The greed of the Marshall’s, Haynesworth’s, etc is out of hand and the 2nd or even 3rd tier players are left the worst for the coddling of such “stars”. Personally, I want to watch FOOTBALL not some choreographed dance routine of the “look at me crowd”. Football is a TEAM sport.
The owners are no better holding cities hostage to the threat of removing a team unless the “public” pays for most of the risk for building a new stadium. Today’s fan might as well hold their hands up in the air when they walk in the stadium because they are going to be “held up” for those $ 9 beers. Both sides are seriously risking the disillusionment of the fan with their self-focused greed. Maybe they should explore the novel idea of putting “the fans” first.
"Peace, a journey without distance to a place we have never left."
by BroncoCUbuffs on Mar 14, 2011 9:52 AM MDT reply actions 1 recs
Kudos for the front office making an effort. It doesn’t matter what Pat and Joe say some people will never believe or trust what they say or do. You ask any respected player that’s played for Mr. Bowlen and they will tell you he is the best owner in the NFL.
by always broncs on Mar 14, 2011 10:26 AM MDT via mobile reply actions
I am like everyone here and just want a resolution. I do feel that it it unreasonable to expect the owners to divulge complete financial data for several reasons. One, being that the owners have many other business ventures along with the NFL and disclosing the data for a complete audit will invite audits of other kinds. Can anyone say IRS? There are write-offs, deductions and so forth that help business owners keep the books in order. I would imagine that an IRS audit wouldn’t stop at NFL revenues. I also have to imagine that the other various business ventures include thousands of partners, investors, employees, dependants, etc who would be severely exposed by the IRS’ investigating with a fine toothed comb. I believe this is far larger than opening the “books”. It’s a can of worms that the owners, rightly so, keep private save for the absolute few necessary and trusted to keep the wheels spinning. I can’t offhand think of a business owner, neighbor, family member or friend that would give that info up.
I am in construction sales and this demand to “open the books” reminds me of when a customer wants me to itemize an entire project bid. Labor, materials, taxes, permits, disposals, etc. I don’t deal with them because all they will do with it is nickel and dime the bid until I’m competitive with some bum, illegal or mysterious handy man that lives with his mom and has lower operating expenses, standards, goals, whatever…in the end, I believe the demand for sensitive information is unprecedented and is borderline arrogant. That is all….
by Donkeylover on Mar 14, 2011 10:48 AM MDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
Joe Ellis
said we are willing to open the books. I will cast aside the notion that players demanding to see the books is petulant and childish and say Ellis was willing to negotiate, even if the players’ demands are spurious. With that said, McGeorge SHOULD be the GM because he could crap more football knowledge out of his butt than Ellis could ever know. Heck, Joe Ellis makes Wade Phillips look like a savant! Anyway, let’s let Ellis be the team chaplain because of his integrity. He can say the team prayer and McGeorge can make the tough decisions. Thus, the Broncos will return to prominence
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Mar 14, 2011 12:25 PM MDT reply actions
Man, I hope there is sarcasm intended.
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 1:18 PM MDT up reply actions
Yes
about everything except McGeorge being the GM
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Mar 14, 2011 1:58 PM MDT up reply actions
Box seats for life!
Kyle Orton is currently one of the ten most talented Denver Broncos. And that is precisely the problem and why he shouldn’t start in 2011. We are rebuilding from the very bottom so that = Tebow.
by McGeorge on Mar 14, 2011 2:50 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks!
Brad James
Follow me on Twitter
With Coach Zorro on our side, we will slice opponents to ribbons. Tim Tebow gives me hope and I already have faith and charity in my heart! I see a propitious future rife with Lombardis for our Broncos!
by the new Bradfather on Mar 14, 2011 3:03 PM MDT up reply actions
I knew there
must be a bribe there somewhere ;-)
Fighting Foo With Every Post...
by MTBroncosFan on Mar 14, 2011 3:04 PM MDT up reply actions
suck up!
; )
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 9:40 PM MDT up reply actions
great scoop for MHR
I think the fact that the Broncos ownership sees MHR as such a window to the fans speaks very highly of the work John and the other MHR folks (including us comment participants) do here. Many congrats.
I think the substance of the interview needs to be taken for what it is… ownership putting their spin on the situation. That doesn’t mean that the data and sentiments expressed here are garbage, but does mean we need to take it all with a healthy grain of salt. If the owners truly did offer up the aggregate numbers as certified by a mutually agreed 3rd party auditing firm, that is a big step forward in transparency for them. As the party forcing this showdown, it is much needed.
Even so, the players have the right to decertify and pursue their interests in the courts. Just because the owners are transparent, doesn’t mean the owners are offering a good deal. We have the owners side of the story, but Ellis doesn’t actually address the substantive bits of the deal offered (and how much worse it is than the deal the owners previously agreed to which they cancelled).
At this point, we just have to see how it plays out.
Great work MHR. Look forward to continued great coverage.
by cjfarls on Mar 14, 2011 2:12 PM MDT reply actions 1 recs
That Pic
belongs on one of Ramon’s weekly caption contests lol
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"Leadership is like porn, you know it when you see it. In this case, Tebow is a pornstar."
-BroncoPH
"Ellis...
.. that better not be your hand back there. This ain’t no freakin’ locker room."
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 14, 2011 10:31 PM MDT up reply actions 1 recs
hahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Rec’d
"It's all over fat man!"
-Tom Jackson
"Leadership is like porn, you know it when you see it. In this case, Tebow is a pornstar."
-BroncoPH
know what's funny?
In the photo, the fence behind them has a sign to tell people what it is.
Bringing you hopeful optimism and irreverent naivité, 24/7.
Once a diehard NFL fan, now a diehard CFL fan. GO STAMPS!
by broncosmontana on Mar 19, 2011 10:07 AM MDT up reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recommended FanPosts
Recent FanPosts
Getting Social With MHR
Web Stuff
In Association With
Shutdown Corner - NFL - Yahoo! Sports
- Things to know about NFL men who served in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam
- How Kyle Orton almost cost the Colts Andrew Luck
- Detroit Lions DT Nick Fairley arrested again; now has more NFL arrests than NFL sacks
- Former high-school star Brian Banks does serious time on trumped-up charge, now hopes for an NFL shot
- Former ‘idiot kicker’ Mike Vanderjagt in trouble after accosting junior-high heckler
